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(Slate)   While past history in no guarantee of future performance, it appears we do indeed have a very good reason to distrust our government, especially when they tell us we have nothing to worry about   (slate.com) divider line 76
    More: Obvious, Hoover, American Democracy, guarantees, existential threat  
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5083 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Jun 2013 at 8:44 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-11 08:46:09 AM  
www.brendanwalsh.us
 
2013-06-11 08:48:03 AM  
Temporary powers become permanent powers then are used against you.
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-06-11 08:48:40 AM  
Are we going to get past the partisan bullshiat and do something about it?

So far all we have is "Obama did it" and "Bush did it."  I think they both did it.

The U.S. is off the rails and we're still biatching that we didn't get a seat in the first class car.
 
2013-06-11 08:49:59 AM  
I'm from the government and I'm here to help!
 
2013-06-11 08:51:11 AM  

d23: Are we going to get past the partisan bullshiat and do something about it?

So far all we have is "Obama did it" and "Bush did it."  I think they both did it.

The U.S. is off the rails and we're still biatching that we didn't get a seat in the first class car.


That's exactly what those damned democrats wnat you to think!
 
2013-06-11 08:53:40 AM  
This is no big deal. We should save our outrage about this until a Republican is elected President. Until then, this is just a bunch of whining from sore losers who want to see our irreproachable President get egg on his face.
 
2013-06-11 08:54:16 AM  
Is there another way out other than bloody revolution?
 
2013-06-11 08:55:00 AM  
And apparently our education system...

/in no
 
2013-06-11 08:55:27 AM  
The scariest thing about this entire development is most people I have heard discussing it are saying "Why do I care? I am not doing anything wrong."  One of the loudest non-critics I have heard announcing that Snowden is "annoying" is actually a reporter.
 
2013-06-11 08:56:51 AM  
4.bp.blogspot.com

Tangential but relevant.
 
2013-06-11 08:57:37 AM  
I blame Bruce Wayne and Morgan Freeman...
 
2013-06-11 08:59:16 AM  
Oh, look. It's that thing I was really irritated about 12 years ago. You know. Back when everybody was wrapping their dick in the American flag and waving it around in public because unthinking nationalism was what all the cool kids were doing? When everybody told me to STFU and stop hating America for wanting some basic, common-sense checks on this power? When I kept saying "Hey, you know, some day somebody you don't like is going to get this exact same authority" and I was called a traitor?

Okay, well, you guys have fun with that now that you've suddenly decided you care a good decade after it's too late to realistically do anything about it.
 
2013-06-11 08:59:32 AM  
Freedom goes away to a resounding "meh".

Seriously this is a big farking deal, I've contacted my elected reps - my state reps etc. this has to stop now.
 
2013-06-11 08:59:42 AM  
Violations of your constitutional rights should be treated as treasonous.
Punishment should be the gallows.
 
2013-06-11 09:02:00 AM  
Ric Romero gets a green!
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-06-11 09:02:19 AM  

poe_zlaw: One of the loudest non-critics I have heard announcing that Snowden is "annoying" is actually a reporter.


Reporting is an offshoot of corporate P.R. now.  It's totally different now than it was in Murrow's day.  They are now corporate drones promoting corporate agendas for the most part.  The ones that aren't, like R.S.'s Matt Tabbi and Glenn Greenwald, are constantly marginalized and picked apart.

Corporate bias is the biggest problem in news reporting today, and so-called media critics like Howard Kurtz won't even talk about it.  Kurtz even refuses to believe that a corporation can suppress a point of view.  He's a corporate true believer through and through.
 
2013-06-11 09:03:33 AM  
static.lockerz.com
Land of the free. Enjoy your democracy.
 
2013-06-11 09:04:06 AM  

umad: This is no big deal. We should save our outrage about this until a Republican is elected President. Until then, this is just a bunch of whining from sore losers who want to see our irreproachable President get egg on his face.


I had this exact conversation with my family last night. Divide and conquer indeed.
 
2013-06-11 09:04:25 AM  
I think people in agencies like the FBI and NSA get into what they do for good purpose, but at some point things get all Milgrams-y.  And as for Edward Snowden, I think he's a wonderful idiot: doing what he did for what he THOUGHT was for the right reason.  I just don't know if it's going to help, and if he threw away his career/freedom/life for nothing.  Although, if you see an egregious abuse, I find nothing wrong in standing up and doing something about it.  I just don't know what kind of collateral damage it could end up doing to others outside the sphere of power while doing little if nothing to the powerful themselves.
 
2013-06-11 09:07:34 AM  

skozlaw: Oh, look. It's that thing I was really irritated about 12 years ago.


I don't recall anyone on here being a fan of the Patriot Act.

\More Giants fans than anything
 
2013-06-11 09:09:25 AM  
saying 'past history' is just as retarded as saying 'female girl' or 'canine dog'
I must admit though, I'd like the book about 'future history,' especially the one with the lottery numbers in it.
 
2013-06-11 09:09:42 AM  
I fail to see how anyone is surprised by this. WTF did you think the NSA was doing when they passed the Patriot Act? Does a bear shiat in the woods?
 
2013-06-11 09:12:11 AM  

skozlaw: Oh, look. It's that thing I was really irritated about 12 years ago. You know. Back when everybody was wrapping their dick in the American flag and waving it around in public because unthinking nationalism was what all the cool kids were doing? When everybody told me to STFU and stop hating America for wanting some basic, common-sense checks on this power? When I kept saying "Hey, you know, some day somebody you don't like is going to get this exact same authority" and I was called a traitor?

Okay, well, you guys have fun with that now that you've suddenly decided you care a good decade after it's too late to realistically do anything about it.


I was "irritated" about it 12 years ago too. The difference is, I am still "irritated" about it. That's because I'm not a partisan shiatstain like you. If your views of right and wrong change depending on who is in charge, then you are a traitor. Fark off, hypocrite.
 
2013-06-11 09:12:38 AM  

skozlaw: Oh, look. It's that thing I was really irritated about 12 years ago.


This.  If I can't summon my outrage, it's because I was outraged back in '01 when this legislation was being discussed and actual debate and political action mattered.  Only one Senator voted against the Patriot Act and he was voted out of office two years ago.

You know, the federal government would have a point if they mentioned that Americans green-lighted this thing to the tune of 90% approval ratings back when they were pissing their pants.  They're not abusing power so much as using what Americans gladly gave them (and demonized us dissenters as commie pinko traitors and openly wished for us to die violently and painfully), so NOW everyone's upset?  This is like complaining to a restaurant about a meal you ate back in 2006, and not only ate everything served but left a 25% tip for the service.  It's not only too late to complain, the complaints themselves kind of warrant a "WTF, dude, whatever" response.

You guys WANTED this goddamn police state; why the fark are you complaining about it now?  Because of who's in office?  WTF does that matter?
 
2013-06-11 09:17:00 AM  
So I just listened to a really interesting Freakonomics podcast about "brotherly bonds" with Ted Kaczynski (and his brother David) as the focal point.

I decide to Google/Wikipedia Ted Kaczynski for some additional reading, since I was only 13 at the time of the "Unabombings."

I'm probably on a watchlist now, aren't I?
 
2013-06-11 09:17:09 AM  

youmightberight: Freedom goes away to a resounding "meh".

Seriously this is a big farking deal, I've contacted my elected reps - my state reps etc. this has to stop now.


Let me know if you figure out which one actually cares what you think, feel, believe, etc.


/Hint: none of them do


For those talking of revolution...we arent even close. Too many Starbucks still open. Too many movies grossing in the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars. Too many new cars being sold. People are still way too comfortable for revolution. Honestly , the average person doesnt really care what the govt does as long as they have their comforts.

Its kinda funny...at least the communist dictatorships have the courtesy to come out and tell you that you are being watched, you are under their control, and you will go about your life anyways. The American govt is just as bad as China or NK, but they are sneakier.
 
2013-06-11 09:18:52 AM  

skozlaw: Oh, look. It's that thing I was really irritated about 12 years ago. You know. Back when everybody was wrapping their dick in the American flag and waving it around in public because unthinking nationalism was what all the cool kids were doing? When everybody told me to STFU and stop hating America for wanting some basic, common-sense checks on this power? When I kept saying "Hey, you know, some day somebody you don't like is going to get this exact same authority" and I was called a traitor?

Okay, well, you guys have fun with that now that you've suddenly decided you care a good decade after it's too late to realistically do anything about it.


Yup. You're the only one. We were all wrong. Every last one of us.  Look at you.  All alone and 100% right amongst a sea of sheeple and idiots.  Im sure it's lonely at the top being so smart all the time.  What do we do now?
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-06-11 09:19:18 AM  
Privacy is a lost cause.  In the future the focus is going to shift to regulating how information can be used.

There are too many smartphones, hackers and things like this out there to stop surveillance.  It doesn't matter what the government does, there are too many non-government entities recording what you do.  You can never assume you are not being recorded.  Ever.

Sousveillance is going to be the focus in the future.  The only way to really defend against Brietbarting is to have your own unedited version of the incident in question.

I think the concept of privacy is going to change a lot in the near future.
 
2013-06-11 09:20:03 AM  

umad: If your views of right and wrong change depending on who is in charge, then you are a traitor


Who said my views changed? I mean... besides you because you couldn't come up with an intelligent response and just wanted to do some holier-than-thou-both-side-are-bad chest-thumping?

Begone, moron.

This text is now purple: I don't recall anyone on here being a fan of the Patriot Act.


I don't know about here because I only started reading Fark around '08, but I read Slashdot and I was in a couple of tech forums where the topic was discussed, and of course friends and family discussed it, and it enjoyed fairly broad support.

Even years later when it was up for renewal a majority, mostly led by republicans, still supported it post-insane-nationalistic-paranoia.

Funny how these days nobody supported it....

dragonchild: If I can't summon my outrage


Oh, I could summon plenty of outrage still, but only if somebody can figure out a way to actually make something happen. Once it got renewed for the first time back in the mid-2000s that was pretty much the end of the debate. I fail to see how anything short of a cataclysmic upheaval in the next Congressional election cycle is going to significantly change anything now (and even then, Obama doesn't have to sign shiat so you'd have to probably get 2/3 of Congress behind it), so I'll just save my energy for fresher outrages that could maybe still be addressed.
 
2013-06-11 09:21:18 AM  
Yep, there in the pic with Ike and J. Edgar was Tricky Dick...

/sf. Watergate 'Plumbers"
 
2013-06-11 09:21:26 AM  

d23: Are we going to get past the partisan bullshiat and do something about it?

So far all we have is "Obama did it" and "Bush did it."  I think they both did it.

The U.S. is off the rails and we're still biatching that we didn't get a seat in the first class car.


That's the problem with a two party system.  They simply will not allow any alternate parties that might actually change things.
 
2013-06-11 09:21:53 AM  

poe_zlaw: What do we do now?


In your case I'd suggest you try swapping your shampoo to No More Tears before you bother responding to me again.
 
2013-06-11 09:26:06 AM  
Col. Mustard: Why is J. Edgar Hoover on your phone?
Wadsworth: I don't know. He's on everybody else's phone, why shouldn't he be on mine?
 
2013-06-11 09:28:28 AM  

skozlaw: Who said my views changed? I mean... besides you because you couldn't come up with an intelligent response and just wanted to do some holier-than-thou-both-side-are-bad chest-thumping?


So you just happened to stop caring now. Both sides are bad, you farking idiot. This story illustrates that fact perfectly.
 
2013-06-11 09:30:31 AM  

skozlaw: I could summon plenty of outrage still, but only if somebody can figure out a way to actually make something happen. Once it got renewed for the first time back in the mid-2000s that was pretty much the end of the debate.


OK, I stand corrected.  Yeah, this is basically how I feel about it as well.  I'm still mad; but mad didn't get me shiat back when there was still time to stop this.

Marcus Aurelius: That's the problem with a two party system. They simply will not allow any alternate parties that might actually change things.


Oh, right.  Your mom wrapped my car around a tree and drove yours off a cliff, so a THIRD car is EXACTLY what this drooling idiot needs to turn everything around!
 
2013-06-11 09:32:30 AM  

joness0154: I'm from the government and I'm here to help!


No scarier words.
 
2013-06-11 09:33:35 AM  

umad: So you just happened to stop caring now.


Still waiting on you to quote back to me that part where I said any such thing. Don't worry, I'll wait. I'm sure you'll deliver and you're not just some arrogant twat intentionally reading things into other people's comments so you can be a combative asshole over what you imagine they said.
 
2013-06-11 09:34:34 AM  
First, All Hail obama! 2nd, these so called scandals are BS!
Barry was sleeping during the Benghazi UTube video protest because he needed to be well rested for the next day fundraiser. The IRS enemies list is the result of 2 MAYBE 3 low level workers and they've received punishment in the form of sensitivity training and he just found out it about last week from the news (but not FOX News). AG holder did not lie because that would be wrong. Also, obama fixed all the snooping and illegal wiretapping after he took over the country.
Anyone that thinks this government is a dirty, lying, coverup, sneaky and incompetent operation or that any of the above mentioned scandals are real is a RACIST!
Now get over it and go back to being useful sheep.
All Hail obama.
 
2013-06-11 09:37:36 AM  

DubtodaIll: Is there another way out other than bloody revolution?


chuckpalahniuk.net
 
2013-06-11 09:37:39 AM  

dragonchild: skozlaw: Oh, look. It's that thing I was really irritated about 12 years ago.

This.  If I can't summon my outrage, it's because I was outraged back in '01 when this legislation was being discussed and actual debate and political action mattered.  Only one Senator voted against the Patriot Act and he was voted out of office two years ago.

You know, the federal government would have a point if they mentioned that Americans green-lighted this thing to the tune of 90% approval ratings back when they were pissing their pants.  They're not abusing power so much as using what Americans gladly gave them (and demonized us dissenters as commie pinko traitors and openly wished for us to die violently and painfully), so NOW everyone's upset?  This is like complaining to a restaurant about a meal you ate back in 2006, and not only ate everything served but left a 25% tip for the service.  It's not only too late to complain, the complaints themselves kind of warrant a "WTF, dude, whatever" response.

You guys WANTED this goddamn police state; why the fark are you complaining about it now?  Because of who's in office?  WTF does that matter?


Apparently it does matter who's in office, because for Bush's term you (in general and you specifically) were all outraged, but now that Obama is in  - well, too late now, and we were mad then, but it's all water under the bridge. I'm quite sure the next time we have a Republican in the White House, you'll suddenly be able to be all outspoken again.
 
2013-06-11 09:37:49 AM  

skozlaw: Oh, look. It's that thing I was really irritated about 12 years ago. You know. Back when everybody was wrapping their dick in the American flag and waving it around in public because unthinking nationalism was what all the cool kids were doing? When everybody told me to STFU and stop hating America for wanting some basic, common-sense checks on this power? When I kept saying "Hey, you know, some day somebody you don't like is going to get this exact same authority" and I was called a traitor?

Okay, well, you guys have fun with that now that you've suddenly decided you care a good decade after it's too late to realistically do anything about it.


They never get this. Even if you honestly trust the people currently in charge, it's meaningless because they're constantly being replaced with different people. As you said, it's much harder to repeal something than it is to block it or more narrowly define the powers in the first place. If it can be abused it will be abused, it's a matter of when not if. Thinking otherwise is insane, you don't give them broad powers and hope everyone thereafter behaves.
 
2013-06-11 09:39:05 AM  
Slate: but Hoover or something
 
2013-06-11 09:47:17 AM  

Carousel Beast: Apparently it does matter who's in office, because for Bush's term you (in general and you specifically) were all outraged, but now that Obama is in - well, too late now, and we were mad then, but it's all water under the bridge.


Speak for yourself, dude.  Getting some random Farker on the Internet upset is more important than the impact of actual legislation, eh?  This is how you can tell a democracy is in good hands, folks!
 
2013-06-11 09:53:25 AM  
Who gives a fark?

The NSA will find out whatever they want about you anyway, through obvious means or not. We live in a society where there is no more privacy, and every swinging dick that favored the patriot act and voted for it is complicit.

Too late sheeple.
 
2013-06-11 09:54:37 AM  

Carousel Beast: well, too late now


Feel free to offer a workable path to getting rid of this bullshiat or adding some sort of oversight. I'm all ears.

Carousel Beast: and we were mad then


Yea. Right. (PDF) Pages 4-6 sure show evidence of that outrage.

Typical bullshiat. Same as with Dubya and Iraq, with Clinton before, and with Vietnam and Korea before that. Funny how once something becomes unpopular enough suddenly nobody ever liked it in the first place. Hell, America was founded on that principal. Funny how so many colonists didn't actually want to break away from the crown until AFTER the war was won.

It's the same as it ever was. A few people were strongly opposed, a few people were strongly supportive, and most people just went along with the loudest voice which happened to be the latter in this case because it had the support of the government and the complicity of the media.

You're full of crap. This has been going on for more than a decade and we've known about it the whole time (and if you didn't it's a simple matter of enforced ignorance, because they've held multiple votes on it over the years). The only thing that's different now is that the conservatives have decided they're finally going to start biatching because a democrat's doing it and they think they can pin some more damage on him after all the other shiat they've flung in recent months.

Well, too farking bad. That's not going to get it fixed because you don't actually care about the problem, you just want to biatch fro your own selfish purposes, and it's far too late even if you were being serious and not just whining that your team lost in November.

But if you can figure a realistic way to knock the majority of sitting congressman out of their seats and put in some people who will actually give a flying fark about civil liberties, enough that can override the inevitable veto; like I said, I'd sure love to hear it.
 
2013-06-11 09:55:24 AM  

Marcus Aurelius: d23: Are we going to get past the partisan bullshiat and do something about it?

So far all we have is "Obama did it" and "Bush did it."  I think they both did it.

The U.S. is off the rails and we're still biatching that we didn't get a seat in the first class car.

That's the problem with a two party system.  They simply will not allow any alternate parties that might actually change things.


In my experience 100% of people who complain about the two party system, that both parties being the same, or who rage quit their party to be a "libertarian" are people who can barely be bothered to vote, let alone write to their congressman, local leaders or to volunteer in an election.

/or hell, even run for office: there are plenty of places were positions are either unfilled or the same people keep winning their positions because nobody seriously runs against them. Generally speaking your local politics has a much greater effect on your day to day life than what happens in Washington.
 
2013-06-11 10:05:17 AM  

d23: Are we going to get past the partisan bullshiat and do something about it?


Like what? Both parts of the political monopoly-pretending-to-be-a-duopoly want this stuff. There is no alternative and if there was it would be locked out or taken over.
 
2013-06-11 10:05:24 AM  

pseudoscience: I fail to see how anyone is surprised by this. WTF did you think the NSA was doing when they passed the Patriot Act? Does a bear shiat in the woods?


Yes.  What did people think was going to happen?  Nothing?
 
2013-06-11 10:05:41 AM  

umad: skozlaw: Oh, look. It's that thing I was really irritated about 12 years ago. You know. Back when everybody was wrapping their dick in the American flag and waving it around in public because unthinking nationalism was what all the cool kids were doing? When everybody told me to STFU and stop hating America for wanting some basic, common-sense checks on this power? When I kept saying "Hey, you know, some day somebody you don't like is going to get this exact same authority" and I was called a traitor?

Okay, well, you guys have fun with that now that you've suddenly decided you care a good decade after it's too late to realistically do anything about it.

I was "irritated" about it 12 years ago too. The difference is, I am still "irritated" about it. That's because I'm not a partisan shiatstain like you. If your views of right and wrong change depending on who is in charge, then you are a traitor. Fark off, hypocrite.

www.fataldownflaw.com
 
2013-06-11 10:16:42 AM  

generallyso: d23: Are we going to get past the partisan bullshiat and do something about it?

Like what? Both parts of the political monopoly-pretending-to-be-a-duopoly want this stuff. There is no alternative and if there was it would be locked out or taken over.


More importantly, no more people really care about it now than did before, and there weren't enough before to make anything happen.

Most of the "outrage" right now is just Obama's political opponents trying to further damage him and, by association, the democratic party. They don't actually give a flying fark and they wouldn't support any actual attempt to fix the problem if it were brought up.

And the democrats won't call their bluff on it by bringing up a bill because then they'd have to vote against it too because they don't want to fix this anymore than the republicans do. Support for this bullshiat has been pretty consistently bipartisan.

And, most importantly, the voters don't give a shiat so they won't vote any of them out to put people in that are more interested in civil liberties than pants-wetting cowardice.

This is one of the few examples where both sides really are just as bad as each other, and the voters aren't any better.

This fight was fought and lost a decade ago and nothing has changed since then.
 
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