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(Jalopnik)   Let's ride along with wannabe Speed Racer as he learns a valuable lesson about understeer -- and drives his BMW right off the edge of a cliff   (jalopnik.com) divider line 226
    More: Dumbass, BMW, lessons  
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18803 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Jun 2013 at 8:07 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-10 11:33:29 PM  
I certainly cannot cast any stones.  My first car was a 71 Mustang with a rebuilt 351C, with a whole lot of neat neat thingies that made the car just a beast.... Thankfully never cracked it up doing stupid things... not that I didn't do stupid things while driving it, just lucky enough to keep things relatively safe...  Apparently, Darwin was busy banging my girlfriend and decided to leave me alone...
 
2013-06-10 11:34:33 PM  

TheWizard: Al!: mxstone: Benjimin_Dover: Here's a tip: Stop crossing double yellows

Spoken by somebody who doesn't understand how to hit the apex of a curve.

Others have mentioned it but I'll pile on. As someone who routinely goes batshiat fast on twisty PUBLIC roads, That yellow line is your apex. Respect it and you won't do dumb shiat like this douchy farker.

Sort of THIS.  I used to drive like an idiot when I was younger.  I describe it as such because that is a factual and accurate description of what it is to drive 2-3x the speed limit on a public road.  Treat the yellow line as a giant brick wall and you're not very likely to end up in a ditch or off of a cliff.  My recommendation?  Keep your speeding to 10 mph over the limit and get real friendly with your neighborhood racetrack owner/operator.  I hit a deer while I was cruising at about 125 mph in my '89 Jaguar XJS on a public road.  I came up over a small rise in the road and it was just hanging out there in my lane.  Had it been a kid, I would be typing this from a prison library somewhere, even though the incident was almost 10 years ago.  The deer splattered all over the inside of the back window and nearly put us into a telephone pole at over 100 mph, as I couldn't see where I was going with doe-guts all in my eyes, mouth and nose.  You can factor for everything except bad luck.  Bad luck catches up to everyone who pushes their luck too often.

The road past my house has been featured as one of the best drives in the country.  The speed limit on it is 45MPH.

I can tell you as a twisty-turny-speedy road junkie... that limit is WAY to high for both the road, and the people on the road.  The road is one of the older roads in the US and meanders along a river.   The road is lined on one side by sycamore trees, and on the other by 6' earthen bank or 200 year old oak trees.  The result is that you can't see far enough ahead for your brakes to stop you should you encounter a cyclist, stopped car (people stopping to p ...


Maybe if the government stopped putting insanely low speed limits on full-visibility flat highways people would actually pay attention to speed limits.
 
2013-06-10 11:40:04 PM  
I would grade that experience at a pucker-factor of 5.
 
2013-06-10 11:47:12 PM  

jdawg3k: Maybe if the government stopped putting insanely low speed limits on full-visibility flat highways people would actually pay attention to speed limits.


Hmmm, seems to me that if the douchedozzle had been following that "insanely low speed limit" he would have stayed on the road.
 
2013-06-10 11:52:00 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: I like how he turns harder to the right after the front wheels start to understeer.


That is an extremely difficult reflex to condition out. It makes perfect sense to reduce the angle of attack when looking at it in hindsight or when asked academically; but when "oh sh*t" happens your lower brain tries to take over and "make it point that way!" however it can.
 
2013-06-11 12:04:44 AM  

LoneVVolf: Mr. Eugenides: I like how he turns harder to the right after the front wheels start to understeer.

That is an extremely difficult reflex to condition out. It makes perfect sense to reduce the angle of attack when looking at it in hindsight or when asked academically; but when "oh sh*t" happens your lower brain tries to take over and "make it point that way!" however it can.


Mine doesn't.  But that's because when I was a teenager my father made me drive too fast on a frozen lake so now muscle memory now knows what to do in that situation.
 
2013-06-11 12:05:23 AM  

Mr. Eugenides: Mister Peejay: Mr. Eugenides: I like how he turns harder to the right after the front wheels start to understeer.

Well if too much don't work, then a little more should do the trick, right?

And people wonder why cars have to have stability control now.  People are idiots.

Something something Ultimate Parking Machine, something something E30s were best BMWs ever, something something oversteer scares passengers but understeer scares drivers.


To be fair, understeer saves lives.  All production cars are designed to understeer at the limit because when you inevitably hit something you hit it mostly head on.  If the car oversteers at the limit then you're going to end up hitting something sideways which tends to be a lot less survivable.

Understeer is a lot less fun if you're intentionally at the limit, but either way if you're operating beyond the limit craps gonna happen.


Stability control damn near killed me or saved me, I still can't decide which.  I was coming around a tight cloverleaf to get on US 50 when it was raining and the road was banked all wrong.  I was in an Infiniti G35x AWD and going the suggested 35 mph around the exit because it was raining so hard.  Right at the bottom of the exit, when you'd normally start to accelerate, there was a puddle that went across the entire road and a pool of gravel that had settled there.

The front end hit the puddle and lost traction first, but then the back end put out like Miley Cyrus at a rapper's house and I was thrown very quickly into a classic oversteer situation:  the back of the car was twisting around a curve much faster than the front.  Since I'm insanely old, I did what I always do - I turned into the skid.  MISTAKE MISTAKE MISTAKE on modern cars with stability control.  At the same time I was correcting for the skid, so was the car, and it was doing it much faster than I ever could.  The car was compensating for the rear wheels, so when the front bit again they bit hard, which threw the back end in the opposite direction, leading me very quickly into another oversteer situation in the opposite direction, which was towards the outside of a cloverleaf turn.  The entire time I was counter-intuitively fighting the car because all it wanted to do was get all four wheels back to a stable state.

That led to yet another massive overcorrection on my part, but since I wasn't going very fast to begin with it ended up being a weird oscillating wobble in multiple directions before I ended up driving along like nothing had happened.

After the tl;dr the lesson is this:  if stability control is on, keeping the wheels pointed where you want to go is the safest option.  The car is going to figure out the best course of action without any help from you.
 
2013-06-11 12:14:06 AM  

Mr. Eugenides: Mister Peejay: Mr. Eugenides: I like how he turns harder to the right after the front wheels start to understeer.

Well if too much don't work, then a little more should do the trick, right?

And people wonder why cars have to have stability control now.  People are idiots.

Something something Ultimate Parking Machine, something something E30s were best BMWs ever, something something oversteer scares passengers but understeer scares drivers.


To be fair, understeer saves lives.  All production cars are designed to understeer at the limit because when you inevitably hit something you hit it mostly head on.  If the car oversteers at the limit then you're going to end up hitting something sideways which tends to be a lot less survivable.

Understeer is a lot less fun if you're intentionally at the limit, but either way if you're operating beyond the limit craps gonna happen.


Tatra. So many Kraut officers got snuffed in them that Hilter declared them verboten for the Wehrmacht.

You think your Corvair has oversteer? Oh dear. You don't like the way your VW bug swings its ass on gravel roads? Tee hee. Take a ride in a Tatra.
 
2013-06-11 12:15:28 AM  
jdawg3k: Maybe if the government stopped putting insanely low speed limits on full-visibility flat highways people would actually pay attention to speed limits.

I just came back from a 300 mile road trip in a rented car because I didn't trust my daily driver to get through a 300 mile (one way) trip in one shot.

sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net

Speed limit = 55 - 65 ... for 60 miles ... in a straight line.

// got pulled over on the first day (going 80), let go with a warning. A few minutes earlier, someone passed me going at least 95.

// Stayed at the limit for the rest of the trip (to the annoyance of all of my fellow drivers) until I was safe and sound out of speed trap country and back into my home state. Sorry to everyone that had to go around me.

// dirt roads are more fun anyway
fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net
 
2013-06-11 12:15:28 AM  
His turn-ins are all wrong, his apexes are all farked...all of this in an unknown road.

Color me not surprised.
 
2013-06-11 12:21:09 AM  
LOL, here is the Google street view of that stretch of my trip so that you can drive it virtually with me :P
 
2013-06-11 12:38:33 AM  
Poor E46 M3. Too bad the driver didn't get tossed and have the car saved. ;-(

Anyway, here's me in my E36 at PIR - first day out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q98WujQ2EnE">https://www.youtube.com /watch?v=Q98WujQ2EnE
 
2013-06-11 12:43:28 AM  
LikeALeafontheWind:
i had a 99 E36 M3 never did anything anywhere near that stupid with it though. really fun car to drive, but it became a giant money hole.


I also had a late 90's M3 back in the day.  IMHO, the M3 cars from the 90's are far more faithful to the M series racing tradition than the latest overpriced overly heavy luxury car supposed M3 concoctions.

Not that I would refuse a new one...
 
2013-06-11 01:14:46 AM  

neilbradley: Poor E46 M3. Too bad the driver didn't get tossed and have the car saved. ;-(

Anyway, here's me in my E36 at PIR - first day out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q98WujQ2EnE">https://www.youtube.com /watch?v=Q98WujQ2EnE


You drive like my grandma. saying your shifting is conservative is like saying Bush lied to get us into Iraq.
 
2013-06-11 01:25:36 AM  

willfullyobscure: neilbradley: Poor E46 M3. Too bad the driver didn't get tossed and have the car saved. ;-(

Anyway, here's me in my E36 at PIR - first day out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q98WujQ2EnE">https://www.youtube.com /watch?v=Q98WujQ2EnE

You drive like my grandma. saying your shifting is conservative is like saying Bush lied to get us into Iraq.


LOLWUT? You must not be familiar with M3s. Red line every time. Watch the mid-corner redline shift in the last turn.
 
2013-06-11 01:38:43 AM  
I much prefer to fly with my paraglider, thank you.

/ just for fun and only on good weekends
 
2013-06-11 01:39:24 AM  
Why did he have a hairpin in his hair?

Oh, wait, never mind.  He put his greatest fear, into his hair.   Brilliant!!!
 
2013-06-11 01:40:04 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: A Shambling Mound: I'd like to thank that guy for the entertainment. I think $70k is a bit pricey for 30 seconds of my time but hey, who am I to judge?

You have to aggregate every person who was entertained by it. It has about 22,500 views now. If you take the $40k figure provided above, that's $2 for each entertained person.

Still a bit pricy, but it's still cheaper than good beer.


Now is that to help him replace the car, or the lead crew that lays down spike strips for his next foray?  I will do the spike strips for free.
 
2013-06-11 01:55:22 AM  

sat1va: I can only hope there are authorities/insurance familiar with his other videos looking to identify him who now have a write-off collision to do so. People that drive like that, crossing solid lines on public roads, deserve to have their licenses revoked. Go be cool on a track instead of risking everyone's life and wasting tax-payer and insurance company money.


wow. white knighting for insurance companies. who each screw policy holders as much as possible while posting record breaking profits year after year. pull in those reins, enthusiastic right doer.
 
2013-06-11 02:02:29 AM  

Lsherm: Stability control damn near killed me or saved me, I still can't decide which.  I was coming around a tight cloverleaf to get on US 50 when it was raining and the road was banked all wrong.  I was in an Infiniti G35x AWD and going the suggested 35 mph around the exit because it was raining so hard.


That 35 mph that was "suggested" is what to do when conditions are good.  If it's raining hard you should perhaps go a bit slower.

Thanks for putting everyone else in danger.  I don't care if you kill yourself, but if you're on a public road you should learn to drive so you don't hurt anyone else.
 
2013-06-11 02:08:55 AM  

Mister Peejay: it's perceived that if you understeer and crash, you were driving too fast and therefore it's your fault, but if you spin and crash, the car is unsafe and the car was at fault Corvair.


I don't have any criticism of your point in general, but I grew up driving a Corvair and it understeered more than any other car I've ever driven. ...In low traction snow/ice conditions. I've never driven a Corvair, or any car, at high speed on dry pavement. The engine is in back so the front is unusually light, so the front tires don't grip well. Or grip at all, it felt like. (My experience was with the later suspension -- maybe you're right about the initial suspension that made Corvair infamous)
 
2013-06-11 02:15:59 AM  

Mister Peejay: Or, to put it somewhat cynically (albeit with a big grain of truth), it's perceived that if you understeer and crash, you were driving too fast and therefore it's your fault, but if you spin and crash, the car is unsafe and the car was at fault Corvair.


Had a Pontiac Fiero GT w/ V6. It was very rear-end heavy and it easily transitioned from mild understeer to major oversteer by just backing off the throttle at maximum cornering limits. Could be a lot of fun in the right situation, but in the wrong hands it could overpower an inexperienced driver.
 
2013-06-11 02:25:23 AM  
Tut - he should leave 'driving like a dick' to the Audi drivers where it rightfully belongs.
 
2013-06-11 03:07:56 AM  
I hope that BMW was able to get some valuable crash data from the dummy.
 
2013-06-11 04:38:30 AM  
namatad:
what a cliff might look like
[upload.wikimedia.org image 640x480]


4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-06-11 04:53:25 AM  
If there had been serious injuries I would have not been so happy about this crash. Don't like seeing people seriously injured but since I am led to believe the driver survived I find this nothing but funny.
 
2013-06-11 06:26:46 AM  
Whoopsie.
 
2013-06-11 06:52:47 AM  
www.blogcdn.com
for... driving off cliffs

4closurefraud.org
cdn-static.zdnet.com
 
2013-06-11 07:25:57 AM  
This shows you how stupid I am:
I thought it was a closed course and an authorized race.
 
2013-06-11 07:34:54 AM  
I shat
 
2013-06-11 08:40:32 AM  
Anyone know who shot/produced/posted the video? It was so well done, I'd like to know, but they never put any identification in the video...
 
2013-06-11 08:43:32 AM  

lordargent: jdawg3k: Maybe if the government stopped putting insanely low speed limits on full-visibility flat highways people would actually pay attention to speed limits.

I just came back from a 300 mile road trip in a rented car because I didn't trust my daily driver to get through a 300 mile (one way) trip in one shot.

[sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net image 850x637]

Speed limit = 55 - 65 ... for 60 miles ... in a straight line.

// got pulled over on the first day (going 80), let go with a warning. A few minutes earlier, someone passed me going at least 95.

// Stayed at the limit for the rest of the trip (to the annoyance of all of my fellow drivers) until I was safe and sound out of speed trap country and back into my home state. Sorry to everyone that had to go around me.

// dirt roads are more fun anyway
[fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net image 850x210]


I hear ya...listen up, people:  if your local cops single out out-of-staters for special traffic enforcement, (I'm looking at YOU, Poughkeepsie), don't whine when out-of-staters drive like grandmothers and slow down your commute.

You basically asked for it.
 
2013-06-11 08:50:51 AM  
It's important to take a comprehensive test drive of any car before buying it. He would have been foolish to purchase that car without trying out the airbags first.
 
2013-06-11 09:09:20 AM  

Benjimin_Dover: Here's a tip: Stop crossing double yellows

Spoken by somebody who doesn't understand how to hit the apex of a curve.


It's irresponsible on a public road, especially with all those blind corners.  I'm surprised the accident only involved himself.

/respect a road like a gun, never assume it's empty
 
2013-06-11 09:22:30 AM  
The only speeding i've done on four wheels is on a freeway is 108.  On my old sportbike on the other hand,  I loved taking twisty corners at triple digits.   But you ALWAYS respect the yellow lines or you're asking for a head on with a semi.  Even staying on the inside of a yellow line in a blind corner I'm looking out for dumbasses coming the other way cutting over the line.  Also,  on a sportbike especially, but not sure if it has much effect on cars...  THOSE PAINTED LINES ARE F'N SLIPPERY!
 
2013-06-11 09:30:26 AM  

Mister Peejay: ZAZ: I know a man who was covered when he totalled his car on a race track. Whatever race exclusion his policy had was not broad enough to cover the situation. He knew better to say "I was racing at the race track." He was (as far as I know) honest in his claim, and his honest description didn't sound like a race to the insurer.

I think a practice doesn't count as a race, but once you get formal scoring of finish position it is a race.

There's lots of ways you can enjoy your car on a road course without it being a race.  Open lapping days are one of them.  (Timing equipment is generally forbidden at these)  Another way is to go to a driver's school or High Performance Driving Experience, basically open lapping with an instructor.  (The top tier of HPDEs can have you going out sans instructor, tho)  Since those are "driver's education" then insurance MAY cover you if you spectacularly run out of talent


I like that one. Stealing it.

My dad was a F-15 WSO.  Air Force pilots are told that you can fly on 2 of 3 things: Altitude, Airspeed, and Ideas. Run out of one, you can figure it out.  Run out of two and it's going to be a bad day.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-06-11 09:30:34 AM  
That 35 mph that was "suggested" is what to do when conditions are good.

Suggested speeds for curves and ramps are set in three common ways.

1. Just make up a number.

2. Use a ball bank indicator and put the result into a formula based on what was comfortable for a driver in a 1930s car, 10 degrees of bank indication at higher speed. Bank includes car roll so lateral acceleration is somewhat less than tan(10)≈0.18g.

3. Use the design speed, which is based on about .1 g lateral acceleration.

On clean, dry pavement an unskilled driver in a modern car can go twice the speed set by methods (2) and (3). The first method produces inconsistent results. A survey published about 15 years ago (in Public Roads?) found the speeds were generally useless, but also generally far below the safe speed for the curve.
 
2013-06-11 10:11:29 AM  

Bobo D Monkey: Lots of derp here already.

A Shambling Mound: I'd like to thank that guy for the entertainment. I think $70k is a bit pricey for 30 seconds of my time but hey, who am I to judge?

That's an E46 M3, sold from '02 to '06 its worth $40k max, but probably more like $15k-$20k.

Erix: So why did his side airbag go off before he impacted anything?  I mean, it looks like it certainly did its job, but do they just go off if the car tilts to the side over a certain amount, or what?

Yep, you got it, there are roll sensors that deploy the side curtain airbags (and maybe the others) when the car tilts to a certain angle. Most cars nowadays have a system like that. On some 4x4's you have to pull a fuse so if you go off camber on a trail, the bags won't deploy in your face.


Yep. My wife hit a curb and the car thought it was on 2 wheels then deployed the seat and side curtain airbags plus burned the seat belt pretensioners. The seat airbags pinned her arm into the door and messed it up pretty good.

Took it to Kia who said that was normal. The pulled the black box and the car thought it was on 2 wheels. We had to file it on insurance and it was right at $10,000 to fix.

Here's all the damage the curb did:

i724.photobucket.com

Here's what the air bags did:

i724.photobucket.com
i724.photobucket.com

Here's where her arm got pinned between the seat back airbag and the door.

i724.photobucket.com
 
2013-06-11 10:12:49 AM  

Cletus from Canuckistan: Benjimin_Dover: Spoken by somebody who doesn't understand how to hit the apex of a curve.

Written by someone who doesn't understand what a double yellow means, apparently. It means NOT YOUR FARKING SIDE OF THE ROAD, DUMBASS. often that double yellow signifies a blind hill or curve.i
Apexing on a closed course is fine. Apexing on a twisty two-lane public road is is considered an "improper lane change" at best, more likely "street racing" or "reckless driving".
/"criminal negligence or "vehicular manslaughter" may also apply, should one meet an oncoming car


for all you mamby pamby drivers out there, there is still an apex to hit on your side of the yellow ..

/toe the line
//like to drive fast
///everywhere
 
2013-06-11 10:21:42 AM  

ZAZ: On clean, dry pavement an unskilled driver in a modern car can go twice the speed set by methods (2) and (3). The first method produces inconsistent results. A survey published about 15 years ago (in Public Roads?) found the speeds were generally useless, but also generally far below the safe speed for the curve.


I basically treat those numbers as appropriate for rain, or for large/top-heavy vehicles.
 
2013-06-11 10:30:41 AM  

The Muthaship: What kind of car was it kicking his ass?


Looks like another 3-series... with someone behind the wheel who knew a little better what they were doing.
 
2013-06-11 10:31:19 AM  

reubendaley: numbone: Enter slow, power out and you'll last longer. You can drive like that also.

[i.imgur.com image 400x300]


Let's have a big A Winner Is You dot jpeg for both. Easy to miss that.

Superb.

/could tell that dumbass didn't know how to drive when he skidded on the first turn. Driving faster than skill allows for and being too much of a douchebag to hit the brake in time is a dangerous combination.
 
2013-06-11 10:31:20 AM  
Understeer, sure.... but friends don't let friends early-apex.
 
2013-06-11 10:32:41 AM  

Fubegra: ZAZ: On clean, dry pavement an unskilled driver in a modern car can go twice the speed set by methods (2) and (3). The first method produces inconsistent results. A survey published about 15 years ago (in Public Roads?) found the speeds were generally useless, but also generally far below the safe speed for the curve.

I basically treat those numbers as appropriate for rain, or for large/top-heavy vehicles.


Yeah, those are "don't tip my semi over" speeds.
 
2013-06-11 10:42:19 AM  
I wish I still had pictures of the 2010 M5 that crashed in to one of our rental properties. Long story short guy drifted a right hand banked corner - when the tail came back to the right the tires gripped and launched him across 3 lanes of traffic into the porch of our rental.

Daddy bought him a new one within the month.

I can't stress this enough for rich parrents: give your kids enough to do something but not enough to do nothing.
 
2013-06-11 10:53:37 AM  
I drive a ragtop.  I would have died in that wreck.
 
2013-06-11 11:17:19 AM  

phlegmmo: Mister Peejay: Or, to put it somewhat cynically (albeit with a big grain of truth), it's perceived that if you understeer and crash, you were driving too fast and therefore it's your fault, but if you spin and crash, the car is unsafe and the car was at fault Corvair.

Had a Pontiac Fiero GT w/ V6. It was very rear-end heavy and it easily transitioned from mild understeer to major oversteer by just backing off the throttle at maximum cornering limits. Could be a lot of fun in the right situation, but in the wrong hands it could overpower an inexperienced driver.


My MR2 (Toyota Fiero) has awesome front end grip but definitely over steers.
 
2013-06-11 11:21:09 AM  

Koodz: My MR2 (Toyota Fiero) has awesome front end grip but definitely over steers.


So much cooler than a Fiero.
 
2013-06-11 11:30:04 AM  
Yeah. I found some video of some guy doing 100+ in a Mazda 3. In North Dakota. In winter time. 
Said he did nearly 270 miles in about 3 hours 15 minutes, and averaged 22MPG for that run.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvRhqU0_uGA

encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com
 
2013-06-11 11:40:56 AM  

The Muthaship: Koodz: My MR2 (Toyota Fiero) has awesome front end grip but definitely over steers.

So much cooler than a Fiero.


I miss it. It's in the body shop for its third crash, and I've never been in the driver's seat for one of them. SUV drivers can't SEE the little bastard, and to date it has been backed over by a Suburban, an Excursion, and an Escape. Im really tired of sitting in a restaurant and having rednecks wander in to ask, "Who drives yhe little silver car?".

It's fun to actually be behind the wheel dodging the things though.
 
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