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(NYPost)   Let's see what happens in New York City schools when students get their tests graded by an impartial outside evaluator instead of teachers with a vested interest in socially promoting the little sociopaths to be somebody else's problem   (nypost.com) divider line 30
    More: Fail, New York City, mitigating factors  
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19158 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Jun 2013 at 11:38 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-06-08 08:27:42 AM
6 votes:
If it's a NY Post article, there's nothing impartial about it.
2013-06-08 09:21:19 AM
5 votes:

Lost Thought 00: Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.


That's an unfair comparison.

Private schools offer teachers MUCH better compensation and let them decide how to teach as opposed to telling them. Also kids who go to private schools, even boarding schools, tend to have parents who are at least try to instill in their kids the value of education.

I love kids in private schools and cashin' them private school paychecks. You get the best classes in the world when the kids know why they're there and they're not just being warehoused for 6 hours a day against their will.
2013-06-08 09:01:15 AM
5 votes:
Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.
2013-06-08 11:57:51 AM
4 votes:

Lsherm: Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.   So we graduate retards.


Your thesis alone lends tremendous anecdotal weight to your arguments.

/Wait for it...
2013-06-08 11:47:49 AM
4 votes:
1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.
2013-06-08 11:54:42 AM
3 votes:

Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.


Do your history, bud.  Good ole Teddy K. created the bill.  Little Bush just tossed him a bone and signed it.

That said, being a former teacher, NCLB is a load of shiat.
2013-06-08 02:05:41 PM
2 votes:

MNguy: OdradekRex: Until we acknowledge that not all students are equal with the same ability to succeed, we'll be stuck with this failed system. Most school districts shut down their vocational and technical programs, which gave the opportunity for students who would not be able to make it to college to learn marketable skills. Now we pretend that with just a little extra teaching and better tests, they will all be little Einsteins.

Your kid is stupid, and probably should aspire to be a welder, at best.


If my kid was not able to get into college, I'd prefer if he or she had an opportunity to learn a trade they could make a decent living at, rather than be handed a useless diploma.
2013-06-08 12:02:36 PM
2 votes:

Lost Thought 00: Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.


A private school would not be in business for long if it did not produce results. That's how the real world operates.
2013-06-08 08:59:56 AM
2 votes:

RedPhoenix122: If it's a NY Post article, there's nothing impartial about it.


I'll call a waaaaaaaambulance for you.

The NYC education system has a well-earned reputation for poor performance (despite ample funding) and corruption, including cheating on standardized tests, a reputation and a documented history which does not disappear because the evil New York Post wrote about it.

A small sampling of additional citations:

NY Daily News.
Daily Beast.
The Atlantic.
NY Times.
2013-06-08 04:29:45 PM
1 votes:

SheltemDragon: puddleonfire: I used to be a secondary scorer for state competency essays, so I'm getting a kick out of this.
Essays were scanned.
With 10th grade essays, only a small fraction were written in cursive.

As a Early American Historian (Antebellum to be exact) I resoundingly cheer the long overdue death of cursive script. People keep saying that its a dieing art, but I have to say it was never really alive in the first place. Yes, there are some amazing examples of lovely script. There are, however, vastly more examples of near illegible cursive. The complete switch to block script can't happen soon enough.

/yes, I know that some people can't write in block either. There is a significant portion of the population that shouldn't be allowed near a writing utensil.
// I'm old enough to have been given cursive instruction in school and I do almost all my work typed on a computer
///Two guesses which group I'm in.


I also cheer this.

I was taught cursive writing starting in third grade. The point which was hammered was that cursive was how the high schools would mandate you write, as that's the way things are "in the real world".

Nothing is further from the truth. What rules in the real world is legibility and clarity, not appearance.

I'm a physician. I was taught block-type script from my father, who worked as a surveyor and draftsman for a number of years. My block script is simple, clear, and easy to read. I don't know how many times I've called other physicians for clarification of their notes, as their cursive is simply impossible to read. Just because it's faster doesn't make it better, especially when lives can be at stake.

I've been re-teaching myself cursive as an art form- my eventual goal is Spencerian script, which you'd recognize as the Coca-Cola font. I appreciate it as an art form, but it simply isn't practical as a daily writing technique. 

As for the central topic of the article, I think there is a baseline that the school needs to have as a facility- a roof that doesn't leak, power that stays on, that sort of thing- but aside from that, the facility doesn't do much. It's probably 95% the student, teacher and parents, 5% facility. If the student is motivated, the parents are invested and the teacher isn't just counting the days to retirement, the student can succeed. If the parents don't care, the student doesn't want to learn and the teacher is just a babysitter, then the student will fail even with the best possible facility.
2013-06-08 02:01:57 PM
1 votes:
In Living Environment, pilot schools saw their passing rates plummet by an average of 6.7 percentage points last year.

Self-grading schools only dropped by 2 percentage points.


So not even the NEA union goons could cheat enough to disguise the fact that the teachers are getting worse every year. NEA does for education what the UAW does for American car production.
2013-06-08 01:58:08 PM
1 votes:

MNguy: Mr. Eugenides: bismark189: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

Do your history, bud.  Good ole Teddy K. created the bill.  Little Bush just tossed him a bone and signed it.

That said, being a former teacher, NCLB is a load of shiat.

I disagree, NCLB is/was an improvement over the previous system of ignoring the problem.  NCLB set up a system to measure results and required that every student be measured every year.

Objective measurement is going to be a cornerstone of any valid education reform.  If you don't know where you are doing it right and where you are failing, then you have no ability to improve.  NCLB got that much right, and I'll give a big ole fark you to anyone who says we need a more "holistic" approach to measurement.  If it's not an objective measure it's not a measure.  If you feel that there are things not being measured, then find a way to measure them don't throw out the valid measurements.  Attention span, self discipline and ability to ignore distraction are all things that should be and can be measured but are being ignored.  That doesn't mean that we should throw out the metrics that do work.

Public education will never succeed with 100% of children, so on the face of it No Child Left Behind's goal of 100% meeting graduation standards can never be achieved.  On the other hand, the public system should be able to move 100% of all students forward in each year.  They may not reach the ultimate goal, but as long as they are moving forward the system is working.

Measure.

Honestly, 100% of our kids ought to graduate every year.


100% includes some severely developmentally disabled and delayed kids.  Children who are in the bottom 5% are often not capable of meeting graduation requirements (particularly Minnesota's which has some of the highest grad requirements in the nation) in 12 years.  Every child should move forward every year (right now we fail kids at the middle school level where some move backwards) every child who is below the standard should receive extra tutoring and counseling in the areas she's behind.  But forcing kids to meet an arbitrary deadline at age 17/18 is setting things up for institutional failure.
2013-06-08 01:23:47 PM
1 votes:

Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.


You mean the bill co-authored by Ted Kennedy and George Miller?  The one that passed 384-45 in the House and 91-8 in the Senate?  Of the 53 Nay votes, 34 of them came from Republicans, so you can't even claim that the Democrats were the only ones standing against it at all.  Both parties own this bill and bullshiat program.
2013-06-08 01:06:38 PM
1 votes:
If the majority of parents did more than simply send their kids to school every day (if they even do that) and check in at the end of the quarter to see the report card, we'd all be better off.  Start expecting As and Bs out of every kid.  Keep on top of what's happening in the classroom every day, not just at report card time.  Have regular contact with the teachers.  Be aware of what is happening in other classrooms/schools, and if your kid doesn't appear to be getting the benefit of resources and good teaching, ask the administration some tough questions.  You may not be aware of something that explains away your concerns.  Or you may identify defects that must be fixed for the sake of the kids.

Biatching at school board meetings and complaining on blogs often has only limited effect.  Being regularly involved in schooling and with your kids' teachers can make a huge difference.
2013-06-08 01:02:18 PM
1 votes:

Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.


It wasn't Bush's leguslation, it was ted kennedy. Bush worked with him, but calling it his is beyond dumb.

Why do liberals constantly try to rewrite history. For farks sake.
2013-06-08 12:40:48 PM
1 votes:

Infernalist: ERNesbitt: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

The "flawed system" is a good system, it's just being misused. The point of the system is (rather "should be") if you have an 8th grader reading at a 6th grade reading level, they should be in a 6th grade reading class where they will not struggle and might actually pass (thus getting schools passing grades and funding). Conversely, if you have a 6th grader reading at an 8th grade level they should be in an 8th grade reading class where they will be challenged and learn. Originally, "No Child Left Behind" was supposed to be an effort to educate children at their level until they can master it. Instead, it turned into a path of dumbing down higher levels of learning to compensate for snowflakes who would fail otherwise. The only flaw in the system is in the interpretation.

The 'flaw' in the system is that when kids fail the tests, the schools get punished with reduced funding.


If children were measured and tested at their appropriate skill level instead of a fixed age-based grade level, more children would pass. Pass all of your 12th grade tests and you can graduate... simple. More funding =/= better education.
2013-06-08 12:34:57 PM
1 votes:
Grade inflation has been a fact of life since schools first came into existence.  You're never going to remove subjectivity and administration pressure from teaching.

The system causes me to truly care only about my own kids being properly educated.  I'm not concerned about them meeting only minimum standards.  They're expected to perform to their absolute best ability.  If other parents are satisfied with their kids shooting for the minimums, that's their problem.  When the majority of parents demand real excellence from their kids and the schools, we will move beyond bullshiat standardized testing and bringing up the rear guard.  Instead, the focus will return to competitiveness and pushing all kids to exceed expectations, not just squeak by.
2013-06-08 12:30:56 PM
1 votes:

Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.


The "flawed system" is a good system, it's just being misused. The point of the system is (rather "should be") if you have an 8th grader reading at a 6th grade reading level, they should be in a 6th grade reading class where they will not struggle and might actually pass (thus getting schools passing grades and funding). Conversely, if you have a 6th grader reading at an 8th grade level they should be in an 8th grade reading class where they will be challenged and learn. Originally, "No Child Left Behind" was supposed to be an effort to educate children at their level until they can master it. Instead, it turned into a path of dumbing down higher levels of learning to compensate for snowflakes who would fail otherwise. The only flaw in the system is in the interpretation.
2013-06-08 12:25:21 PM
1 votes:
"If we had 10 people grading a paper . . . where that teacher's coming from may determine how that teacher sees that paper," he said. "You always have disagreement when you have that subjectivity."

A test were the outcome is subjective is not a very good test in the first place.  Maybe that's your damn problem you idiots.
KIA
2013-06-08 12:11:51 PM
1 votes:

Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.


Yes, because the GOP is renowned for running New York City. Their unquestioned dominance of the political scene there is surely the cause of all of this.

/ sarcasm off
2013-06-08 12:07:04 PM
1 votes:

Infernalist: studs up: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

So...Bush's fault?
again

I was merely commenting on the GOP rag raging about a failed GOP Bipartisan policy.


Fixed that for you...
2013-06-08 12:00:53 PM
1 votes:
They are cheating kids out of an education by inflating scores while giving the students a false sense of accomplishment and confidence.
2013-06-08 11:58:18 AM
1 votes:

Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.


So...Bush's fault?
again
2013-06-08 11:49:51 AM
1 votes:
"No child left behind" so who cares?  Why even bother with tests anymore?  Just stick the kid in a room for 8 hours a day with a Spirograph & 12 years later throw an ugly cap on him and send him on his merry way...
2013-06-08 11:47:41 AM
1 votes:
Go Teacher Unions!
2013-06-08 11:46:02 AM
1 votes:

John Dewey: Let's see what happens when we teach teachers to not use tests or curriculum to be the be all and end all.


But but how can we tell if the children is learning without standardized tests?
2013-06-08 11:02:47 AM
1 votes:
2013-06-08 10:26:08 AM
1 votes:

ginandbacon: The only thing that the cost of education indicates is that the school system is in an area with a high cost of living and that a lot of the students come from homes with a lower level of educational attainment or that the district is educating many children with developmental issues and/or children of immigrants.


THIS.

It is a pain in the ass to get numbers broken down by what the district is paying per standard pupil, what they're paying per special-ed pupil, and what they're paying per child from hyperlitigious family that knows education law cold. Districts where administrators don't have their shiat together will occasionally go so far as to settle with a litigious family in exchange for the family using the settlement money to move out of the district, so that they can go be bothersome asshats somewhere else.
2013-06-08 10:05:56 AM
1 votes:
Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.  So we graduate retards.
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-06-08 09:46:13 AM
1 votes:
You could fix the incentives by making schools grade on a curve. No, all those little angels are not brighter than average.

I worked for a megacorporation that expected employees to be graded on a curve during annual performance reviews. Only a few could be above average. A few percent were expected to receive unsatisfactory grades.  In theory a division full of superstars* would be treated badly by the policy. In practice you don't find hundreds of perfect workers together.

Then you'd have to find another way to see how badly the school sucks. A prisoner exchange program would be informative. Send all the kids from Weston** to Roxbury schools, and vice versa, for a few days. Let the teachers render an opinion on the foreign students. Give them a few tests.

* The term "rock stars" came and went a few years ago to describe good software developers (as opposed to tempermental people who are hard to work with, which is what rock stars really are).

** Weston is a suburb of ultra-rich, white xenophobes. Roxbury is one of the poor, dark-skinned parts of Boston.
 
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