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(NYPost)   Let's see what happens in New York City schools when students get their tests graded by an impartial outside evaluator instead of teachers with a vested interest in socially promoting the little sociopaths to be somebody else's problem   (nypost.com) divider line 183
    More: Fail, New York City, mitigating factors  
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19146 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Jun 2013 at 11:38 AM (44 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-08 02:05:41 PM

MNguy: OdradekRex: Until we acknowledge that not all students are equal with the same ability to succeed, we'll be stuck with this failed system. Most school districts shut down their vocational and technical programs, which gave the opportunity for students who would not be able to make it to college to learn marketable skills. Now we pretend that with just a little extra teaching and better tests, they will all be little Einsteins.

Your kid is stupid, and probably should aspire to be a welder, at best.


If my kid was not able to get into college, I'd prefer if he or she had an opportunity to learn a trade they could make a decent living at, rather than be handed a useless diploma.
 
2013-06-08 02:08:02 PM

Mr. Eugenides: bismark189: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

Do your history, bud.  Good ole Teddy K. created the bill.  Little Bush just tossed him a bone and signed it.

That said, being a former teacher, NCLB is a load of shiat.

I disagree, NCLB is/was an improvement over the previous system of ignoring the problem.  NCLB set up a system to measure results and required that every student be measured every year.

Objective measurement is going to be a cornerstone of any valid education reform.  If you don't know where you are doing it right and where you are failing, then you have no ability to improve.  NCLB got that much right, and I'll give a big ole fark you to anyone who says we need a more "holistic" approach to measurement.  If it's not an objective measure it's not a measure.  If you feel that there are things not being measured, then find a way to measure them don't throw out the valid measurements.  Attention span, self discipline and ability to ignore distraction are all things that should be and can be measured but are being ignored.  That doesn't mean that we should throw out the metrics that do work.

Public education will never succeed with 100% of children, so on the face of it No Child Left Behind's goal of 100% meeting graduation standards can never be achieved.  On the other hand, the public system should be able to move 100% of all students forward in each year.  They may not reach the ultimate goal, but as long as they are moving forward the system is working.


You realize, of course, autistic children were held to the same standard as others in the implementation of NCLB [1] ( though they were allowed more time to take the tests ). NCLB only has merit if we are too lazy as a society to value education. It's telling that teachers in Germany can make more money than lawyers there; they value education and it shows in the strength of their economy.

I personally don't care that it was Kennedy that pushed for this or if his or Bush's heart was in the right place; it was a bad idea and poorly implemented.

1]  https://scholarworks.iu.edu/dspace/handle/2022/195
 
2013-06-08 02:09:02 PM

Fark_Guy_Rob: Median GPA at my high school was a 3.3 as they did everything in their power to keep them as high as possible.  You had to try hard not to get good grades.

// Had a 2.1


I can one-up this.  My high school used a 5-point scale and gave free extra points for AP courses and half that amount of extra points for normal classes (called "advanced"), you only got your actual grade if you were in a remedial ("normal") level course.

I graduated with a 5.2 or so, without anyone seeming to realize that pulling this kind of shiat means that your students' GPAs might as well be written in ancient Egyptian.  Admissions officers just look at your course list and AP test scores, and maybe class rank, we've rendered grades meaningless for college admissions.  Which makes all this fighting over them kinda funny.
 
2013-06-08 02:18:12 PM

albatros183: doglover: Lost Thought 00: Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.

That's an unfair comparison.

Private schools offer teachers MUCH better compensation and let them decide how to teach as opposed to telling them. Also kids who go to private schools, even boarding schools, tend to have parents who are at least try to instill in their kids the value of education.

I love kids in private schools and cashin' them private school paychecks. You get the best classes in the world when the kids know why they're there and they're not just being warehoused for 6 hours a day against their will.

Perhaps US private schools are different but I suspect you've never met anyone that went to a private school


Private schools in the US are what you call public schools. But they cost an awful lot.
 
2013-06-08 02:19:35 PM

Pincy: Lsherm: Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.  So we graduate retards.

Congratulations, you just won the Fark most ignorant post of the year award.  Your prize?  Continued ridicule from the rest of us.  You deserve it.


The United States spends more per student than any other country.  Students in the United States are ranked near the bottom of the industrialized countries.

We put enough money into it, how it is spent is the problem. Reform the spending.
 
2013-06-08 02:21:35 PM
My school's results were *worse* for the work they graded themselves. Yes, in my country you take two exams. My school prided itself on the fact that they were tougher on their students than the central exam people were.
 
2013-06-08 02:28:27 PM

Orgasmatron138: Can't speak for New York, but teachers overall have diminishing authority in their own classrooms.  School districts are so paranoid about lawsuits that teachers are completely handcuffed when it comes to disciplining children, teaching curriculum, and getting authorities involved in the home lives of at-risk kids.

But by all means, let's keep blaming the teachers for kids being dumber every year.


Omg THIS!!! A million times THIS! Thank you.
 
2013-06-08 02:29:55 PM

Schmegicky: legion_of_doo: Why test at all?

What we need to do is ignore the situation, never test for anything, pay all the teachers (and especially the school administrators) and then we'll know that the children is learning.

/Because capitalism failed us, and we need to be more like Soviet Russia.
Hitler
/FTFY

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 720x560]


Are you pimping that photo as a German classroom? Not with the palms trees. circa early 60s??
 
2013-06-08 02:32:37 PM

pianomom: Orgasmatron138: Can't speak for New York, but teachers overall have diminishing authority in their own classrooms.  School districts are so paranoid about lawsuits that teachers are completely handcuffed when it comes to disciplining children, teaching curriculum, and getting authorities involved in the home lives of at-risk kids.

But by all means, let's keep blaming the teachers for kids being dumber every year.

Omg THIS!!! A million times THIS! Thank you.


Do they still have the "rubber rooms" in the NYC school system? I guess what I'm asking is: can incompetent teachers be fired?
 
2013-06-08 02:33:44 PM

puddleonfire: I used to be a secondary scorer for state competency essays, so I'm getting a kick out of this.
Essays were scanned.
With 10th grade essays, only a small fraction were written in cursive.


1) I would live to be able to scan the numerous essays I grade each year but I fear that would completely negate the human aspect of being able to actually read the words on the paper and respond to and decipher the intent and meaning of it.

2) Why does it matter if they were written in cursive or not?
 
2013-06-08 02:35:57 PM

lenfromak: Lost Thought 00: Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.

A private school would not be in business for long if it did not produce results. That's how the real world operates.


And those results are measured four years later when the school proudly publishes where the 8th graders from 2009, for example, are going to college in 2013.  The school has no other marketing material.  (the most recent list shows a "low-end" school as University of Michigan, Ann Arbor).

/The difference is NOT teachers IMHO it's parental influences of genes, money, expectations and involvement.
 
2013-06-08 02:43:39 PM

uber humper: pianomom: Orgasmatron138: Can't speak for New York, but teachers overall have diminishing authority in their own classrooms.  School districts are so paranoid about lawsuits that teachers are completely handcuffed when it comes to disciplining children, teaching curriculum, and getting authorities involved in the home lives of at-risk kids.

But by all means, let's keep blaming the teachers for kids being dumber every year.

Omg THIS!!! A million times THIS! Thank you.

Do they still have the "rubber rooms" in the NYC school system? I guess what I'm asking is: can incompetent teachers be fired?


Idk about rubber rooms and NY, but Ohio is implementing a new electronic teacher evaluation system next year. According to the extremely limited amount of information that has been released, an incompetent teacher can be let go after three years of continuously "failing" their review. What sucks the most is that 50% of our evaluation is based on the outcome of the students' End of Course exam. Our brilliant administration thought it would be amazing to announce this little tidbit of information to the high school student body. You should have seen the utter shock on the teachers' faces and sheer joy on the students' faces. Dumba$$es!!
 
2013-06-08 02:52:31 PM

pianomom: uber humper: pianomom: Orgasmatron138: Can't speak for New York, but teachers overall have diminishing authority in their own classrooms.  School districts are so paranoid about lawsuits that teachers are completely handcuffed when it comes to disciplining children, teaching curriculum, and getting authorities involved in the home lives of at-risk kids.

But by all means, let's keep blaming the teachers for kids being dumber every year.

Omg THIS!!! A million times THIS! Thank you.

Do they still have the "rubber rooms" in the NYC school system? I guess what I'm asking is: can incompetent teachers be fired?

Idk about rubber rooms and NY, but Ohio is implementing a new electronic teacher evaluation system next year. According to the extremely limited amount of information that has been released, an incompetent teacher can be let go after three years of continuously "failing" their review. What sucks the most is that 50% of our evaluation is based on the outcome of the students' End of Course exam. Our brilliant administration thought it would be amazing to announce this little tidbit of information to the high school student body. You should have seen the utter shock on the teachers' faces and sheer joy on the students' faces. Dumba$$es!!


Trying to understand your point and outrage.  If a teacher, who is in control of at least 50% of his/her evaluation performance, fails for three years in a row, they may be dismissed?  This also assumes the teacher has zero percent control over the student exam outcome.

Do I have that right, or is your outrage that it was announced to staff and students simultaneously?  Perhaps the students were joyful because they could get a teacher fired by failing an exam?
 
2013-06-08 02:52:36 PM

Lsherm: Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.  So we graduate retards.


You really, really have serious mental problems. I've noticed that reality just simply isn't getting through to you at all. When your parents finally die, you'll be in an institution.
 
2013-06-08 02:54:50 PM
I'd like to see how well private schools would measure up if they were compelled to accept bad students.  Just because you cherry pick the best kids from the public schools does not mean you're achieving great things when those top students you recruited *gasp* do well in school.

The real measurement is how private school grad stack up against public school grads in college.  My experience, with just a few exceptions, was that top students from our public schools did just as well as top students from our private schools.  It really comes down to student and parent motivation rather than exclusivity.
 
2013-06-08 02:56:14 PM

pianomom: Idk about rubber rooms and NY, but Ohio is implementing a new electronic teacher evaluation system next year. According to the extremely limited amount of information that has been released, an incompetent teacher can be let go after three years of continuously "failing" their review. What sucks the most is that 50% of our evaluation is based on the outcome of the students' End of Course exam. Our brilliant administration thought it would be amazing to announce this little tidbit of information to the high school student body. You should have seen the utter shock on the teachers' faces and sheer joy on the students' faces. Dumba$$es!!


Tough questions.  But it's a multi-front battle. The problems are systemic. And no, it's not just about money.  The US already spends the most per student.

Most teachers are conservative (not in the political Republican sense) but in the sense they resist change.  There needs to be a systemic change.

The current idea of schools in universities is an outdated industrial age paradigm. We no longer need schools and universities to pump out a uniform product that march into the workforce to work in a standardized job position. Employees with repetitive tasks will soon be obsolete.  Creatives are what we need.  Workers will be replaced with robots or algorithms.

So, I agree with you.  Standardized tests are bullshiat.  The answer is more complex than this forum here.
 
2013-06-08 02:57:52 PM
pianomom:
According to the extremely limited amount of information that has been released, an incompetent teacher can be let go after three years of continuously "failing" their review. What sucks the most is that 50% of our evaluation is based on the outcome of the students' End of Course exam. Our brilliant administration thought it would be amazing to announce this little tidbit of information to the high school student body. You should have seen the utter shock on the teachers' faces and sheer joy on the students' faces. Dumba$$es!!

That makes absolutely no sense at all.  You're asking us to believe that an entire student body was gleeful over the opportunity to ruin a teacher's evaluation  by failing their exams?  That is simply ludicrous and it didn't happen.
 
2013-06-08 03:12:19 PM
I didn't think teachers could grade their own students anyway. Though inter-school grading seems like a logical step to curb bias. I remember I took my first Math regents in middle school (accelerated program). I did pretty well on it (high 90s) but my Math teacher came to me in tears to apologize to me. She said "I tried to get it changed, but they wouldn't let me". It turns out I had used π≈3.14 and my grader didn't accept approximations as legitimate math, so I lost credit.
 
2013-06-08 03:28:27 PM

Jim_Callahan: I can one-up this. My high school used a 5-point scale and gave free extra points for AP courses and half that amount of extra points for normal classes (called "advanced"), you only got your actual grade if you were in a remedial ("normal") level course.


My high school used a similar system, except we used raw numbers out of 100.  No remedial classes, though.  So, AP and honors classes had 4 points tacked on, "normal" classes didn't.

Passing was 75, and "honors points" couldn't save you from failing.  So, a 72 raw average in an honors class meant you were going to summer school.

Pretty much every year, the valedictorian's average was over 100, and went to Harvard.

/catholic school
 
2013-06-08 03:55:47 PM

puddleonfire: I used to be a secondary scorer for state competency essays, so I'm getting a kick out of this.
Essays were scanned.
With 10th grade essays, only a small fraction were written in cursive.


Nowadays cursive is something you learn in third grade and stop using in fifth.

...until you get an ancient teacher in high school who can't believe no one's using cursive and tries to remedy the deficit single-handedly by requiring it in her class. She had to be a closet masochist to want to suffer through essays in reluctantly resurrected copybook cursive.

What's the point of cursive in an age where we type all our longest texts?
 
2013-06-08 03:59:32 PM

uber humper: Pincy: Lsherm: Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.  So we graduate retards.

Congratulations, you just won the Fark most ignorant post of the year award.  Your prize?  Continued ridicule from the rest of us.  You deserve it.

The United States spends more per student than any other country.  Students in the United States are ranked near the bottom of the industrialized countries.

We put enough money into it, how it is spent is the problem. Reform the spending.


You know that is because the us educates special needs students while other counties don't.

Most of the money on the us goes towards special needs, learning disabilities, and neighborhood where education isn't valued.

The us tries to educate everyone. Other counties fucus their attention on those that are easy to educate and leaves the hard to educate uneducated.
 
2013-06-08 04:07:43 PM
coyo: You realize, of course, autistic children were held to the same standard as others in the implementation of NCLB [1] ( though they were allowed more time to take the tests ). NCLB only has merit if we are too lazy as a society to value education. It's telling that teachers in Germany can make more money than lawyers there; they value education and it shows in the strength of their economy.

I personally don't care that it was Kennedy that pushed for this or if his or Bush's heart was in the right place; it was a bad idea and poorly implemented.

1]https://scholarworks.iu.edu/dspace/handle/2022/195


Bullshait.  If you're going to say something, look it up, just for a second on Google (rates adjusted to US Dollars):

2010 or latest available yearPrimary educationLower secondary educationUpper secondary educationSalarySalaryYears to top
salarySalaryInitial15 yearsMaximumInitial15 yearsMaximumInitial15 yearsMaximum
Germany46 45655 77161 20951 05861 78468 5922853 96366 89576 433  Upper secondary Ed, at the max level possible, pays $76,433.  I couldn't find a nifty table for attorney salaries, but, for Germany according to LLCinfo.com, German lawyers average $113,000 a year.
 
2013-06-08 04:09:05 PM

shtychkn: You know that is because the us educates special needs students while other counties don't.

Most of the money on the us goes towards special needs, learning disabilities, and neighborhood where education isn't valued.

The us tries to educate everyone. Other counties fucus their attention on those that are easy to educate and leaves the hard to educate uneducated.


That's true? I've never heard that. So, across Europe, Australia, S. Korea, Japan, Canada, and so on -- these countries do not have compulsory education for everyone, yet their literacy rates are as high as they are?

I'm calling you out.  That's bullshiat.
 
2013-06-08 04:09:25 PM
Well, that looked a hell of a lot better before.  Need to preview.  Point being, max you can earn as a teacher in Germany is USD 76,433.  Average for a lawyer is USD 113,000.  Coyo is full of shait.
 
2013-06-08 04:13:01 PM

devildog123: Well, that looked a hell of a lot better before.  Need to preview.  Point being, max you can earn as a teacher in Germany is USD 76,433.  Average for a lawyer is USD 113,000.  Coyo is full of shait.


I'm starting to think they stopped teaching research and the scientific method in schools.
 
2013-06-08 04:29:45 PM

SheltemDragon: puddleonfire: I used to be a secondary scorer for state competency essays, so I'm getting a kick out of this.
Essays were scanned.
With 10th grade essays, only a small fraction were written in cursive.

As a Early American Historian (Antebellum to be exact) I resoundingly cheer the long overdue death of cursive script. People keep saying that its a dieing art, but I have to say it was never really alive in the first place. Yes, there are some amazing examples of lovely script. There are, however, vastly more examples of near illegible cursive. The complete switch to block script can't happen soon enough.

/yes, I know that some people can't write in block either. There is a significant portion of the population that shouldn't be allowed near a writing utensil.
// I'm old enough to have been given cursive instruction in school and I do almost all my work typed on a computer
///Two guesses which group I'm in.


I also cheer this.

I was taught cursive writing starting in third grade. The point which was hammered was that cursive was how the high schools would mandate you write, as that's the way things are "in the real world".

Nothing is further from the truth. What rules in the real world is legibility and clarity, not appearance.

I'm a physician. I was taught block-type script from my father, who worked as a surveyor and draftsman for a number of years. My block script is simple, clear, and easy to read. I don't know how many times I've called other physicians for clarification of their notes, as their cursive is simply impossible to read. Just because it's faster doesn't make it better, especially when lives can be at stake.

I've been re-teaching myself cursive as an art form- my eventual goal is Spencerian script, which you'd recognize as the Coca-Cola font. I appreciate it as an art form, but it simply isn't practical as a daily writing technique. 

As for the central topic of the article, I think there is a baseline that the school needs to have as a facility- a roof that doesn't leak, power that stays on, that sort of thing- but aside from that, the facility doesn't do much. It's probably 95% the student, teacher and parents, 5% facility. If the student is motivated, the parents are invested and the teacher isn't just counting the days to retirement, the student can succeed. If the parents don't care, the student doesn't want to learn and the teacher is just a babysitter, then the student will fail even with the best possible facility.
 
2013-06-08 04:32:10 PM

uber humper: There needs to be a systemic change.


I don't disagree, but the system that needs changing is not just education.  It needs to include health care, economy, etc.  Our country really needs to take a long hard look in the mirror and decide how these seeming silos can actually help each other.  That's why that TED Talk i linked to is a great example.  It addresses many of the issues on a micro level this country refuses to address on a macro level.
 
2013-06-08 04:33:52 PM

jjorsett: Fano: John Dewey: Let's see what happens when we teach teachers to not use tests or curriculum to be the be all and end all.

But but how can we tell if the children is learning without standardized tests?

Clearly you aren't in favor of standardized testing, so why don't you try answering the question: if you don't use standardized testing, what's your metric for determining whether a kid has been educated or not?


Ask the  Finnish:

There are no mandated standardized tests in Finland, apart from one exam at the end of students' senior year in high school. There are no rankings, no comparisons or competition between students, schools or regions. Finland's schools are publicly funded.

Educators had little idea it was so successful until 2000, when the first results from the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), a standardized test given to 15-year-olds in more than 40 global venues, revealed Finnish youth to be the best young readers in the world.
 
2013-06-08 04:38:03 PM

Ilmarinen: There are no rankings, no comparisons or competition between students, schools or regions. Finland's schools are publicly funded.

Educators had little idea it was so successful until 2000


So....instead of focusing on being the best, they focused on being the best they could be....novel idea.

Also, I'm pretty sure Finland didn't just look at fixing schools, they looked at how the systems interacted and could benefit each other.

Further, they don't accept failure in teachers.  If a teacher isn't any good, they work very hard to make them good.  Professional development is a central part of the success of their schools.
 
2013-06-08 04:44:39 PM

John Dewey: uber humper: There needs to be a systemic change.

I don't disagree, but the system that needs changing is not just education.  It needs to include health care, economy, etc.  Our country really needs to take a long hard look in the mirror and decide how these seeming silos can actually help each other.  That's why that TED Talk i linked to is a great example.  It addresses many of the issues on a micro level this country refuses to address on a macro level.


That's why we need creatives. It's gonna take a lot of brainpower to fix these problems. Things are changing super fast, it's just a few years until most people become obsolete.

I can't change the country myself. But I can change myself and my family. --If everyone swept under front porch, the whole world would be clean (or how ever it goes).

With the free tools on the Internet, you can learn anything you need. We start by educating ourselves. Then we can destroy and rebuild the institutions. We can't wait for institutions to rebuild first.
 
2013-06-08 04:49:27 PM

uber humper: shtychkn: You know that is because the us educates special needs students while other counties don't.

Most of the money on the us goes towards special needs, learning disabilities, and neighborhood where education isn't valued.

The us tries to educate everyone. Other counties fucus their attention on those that are easy to educate and leaves the hard to educate uneducated.

That's true? I've never heard that. So, across Europe, Australia, S. Korea, Japan, Canada, and so on -- these countries do not have compulsory education for everyone, yet their literacy rates are as high as they are?

I'm calling you out.  That's bullshiat.


I'm not saying that those countries don't have Compulsory Elementary Level Education.  An education that teaches reading/writing and basic "life skills"

However, the populations I mentioned above, are tracked and not given an education that would prepare them for for college/university.

Other countries are not attempting to teach special education students Algebra II, Trig., Chemistry, etc.  As the United States does.
 
2013-06-08 04:52:10 PM

shtychkn: I'm not saying that those countries don't have Compulsory Elementary Level Education.  An education that teaches reading/writing and basic "life skills"

However, the populations I mentioned above, are tracked and not given an education that would prepare them for for college/university.

Other countries are not attempting to teach special education students Algebra II, Trig., Chemistry, etc.  As the United States does.


I'm also skeptical of what you'er saying, but couldn't care less.  To me the point isn't where we rank. The point is are we actually doing what's best for kid in the classroom?
 
2013-06-08 04:53:40 PM

Summer Glau's Love Slave: ginandbacon: SheltemDragon: People keep saying that its a dieing art

*sigh*

[i1125.photobucket.com image 251x251]

/STOP!
//Seizure time.


Meh. I regularly read things from a period where grammar and spelling are a full contact sport. I worry not about a misplaced '
 
2013-06-08 04:53:56 PM

shtychkn: Other countries are not attempting to teach special education students Algebra II, Trig., Chemistry, etc.  As the United States does.


I'm also curious what your definition of sped is.  I believe that a great many of students identified as sped might not need to be if they'd received proper nutrition and medical care in utero and the rest of their childhood.  Again, we're not going to "fix our schools" by just trying to fix our schools.
 
2013-06-08 04:54:32 PM

shtychkn: Other countries are not attempting to teach special education students Algebra II, Trig., Chemistry, etc. As the United States does.


What's the definition of a special ed student? If he can do Trig or Chemistry, I doubt he has a severe enough mental handicap to be considered special education qualified.  In alot of schools Trig and Algebra II are reserved for honors students (I guess that is a form of special education).

So, more Aspie than Downs?
 
2013-06-08 04:57:10 PM

John Dewey: shtychkn: I'm not saying that those countries don't have Compulsory Elementary Level Education.  An education that teaches reading/writing and basic "life skills"

However, the populations I mentioned above, are tracked and not given an education that would prepare them for for college/university.

Other countries are not attempting to teach special education students Algebra II, Trig., Chemistry, etc.  As the United States does.

I'm also skeptical of what you'er saying, but couldn't care less.  To me the point isn't where we rank. The point is are we actually doing what's best for kid in the classroom?


Which kid in the classroom? 

The average student?  The student that needs special services? The student who doesn't care about his/her education and treats school like a prison sentence?
 
2013-06-08 04:58:50 PM

Lost Thought 00: Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.


Having taught in both low performing public, and high performing private schools, i can say this doesn't happen.

The principals are friends with the parents, so when you give little Pat a B, you get fired.  No money needs to change hands.  Just complain.
 
2013-06-08 04:58:52 PM

uber humper: shtychkn: Other countries are not attempting to teach special education students Algebra II, Trig., Chemistry, etc. As the United States does.

What's the definition of a special ed student? If he can do Trig or Chemistry, I doubt he has a severe enough mental handicap to be considered special education qualified.  In alot of schools Trig and Algebra II are reserved for honors students (I guess that is a form of special education).

So, more Aspie than Downs?


In the US both would be taught it.
 
2013-06-08 05:00:28 PM

John Dewey: I'm also skeptical of what you'er saying, but couldn't care less. To me the point isn't where we rank. The point is are we actually doing what's best for kid in the classroom?


What does their ranking metric indicate, how well they will work in a factory-like environment? Individualism, people.  That's the answer.
 
2013-06-08 05:02:48 PM

Ilmarinen: jjorsett: Fano: John Dewey: Let's see what happens when we teach teachers to not use tests or curriculum to be the be all and end all.

But but how can we tell if the children is learning without standardized tests?

Clearly you aren't in favor of standardized testing, so why don't you try answering the question: if you don't use standardized testing, what's your metric for determining whether a kid has been educated or not?

Ask the  Finnish:

There are no mandated standardized tests in Finland, apart from one exam at the end of students' senior year in high school. There are no rankings, no comparisons or competition between students, schools or regions. Finland's schools are publicly funded.

Educators had little idea it was so successful until 2000, when the first results from the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), a standardized test given to 15-year-olds in more than 40 global venues, revealed Finnish youth to be the best young readers in the world.


You make it sound like Sweden has a single test they administer on graduation.  Not true.  Tests on different subjects are administered throughout a students career and are meant to serve as a common measuring stick.  See below......Actually sounds similar to what we have here.

From some Swedish website

http://www.sverigeturism.se/smorgasbord/smorgasbord/society/educatio n/ compulsory.html
"The new marking system is to be objective and achievement-related instead of relative. It will be geared to special achievement criteria which are to be devised in conjunction with the syllabi so as to make it clear to teachers and pupils which achievements are necessary for the award of a certain mark. Final awards will be on a three-point scale: Pass, Pass with distinction and Pass with exceptional distinction.

Comparability will be achieved by means of national tests. Diagnostic tests in reading, writing and arithmetic should be administered in all municipal schools at the end of the second year. All municipal schools are also to administer subject tests in Swedish, English and mathematics at the end of the fifth and ninth years. Swedish tests are also to be administered at independent schools. All pupils will receive a leaving certificate."
 
2013-06-08 05:04:20 PM

shtychkn: Which kid in the classroom?

The average student?  The student that needs special services? The student who doesn't care about his/her education and treats school like a prison sentence?


Yes.
 
2013-06-08 05:04:35 PM

shtychkn: The student who doesn't care about his/her education and treats school like a prison sentence?


That's what it is. They took the fun out of learning.  There are quite a few adults out there who have never cracked a book since school.  A diploma is a destination.
 
2013-06-08 05:09:29 PM

John Dewey: shtychkn: Which kid in the classroom?

The average student?  The student that needs special services? The student who doesn't care about his/her education and treats school like a prison sentence?

Yes.


Unfortunately, you can't have it all.  You have a limited pool of resources.  When you pull from that pool to assist one group, you take away from other groups.

IF you want to "Fix" the US Education system, you have to define the goal of the US education system.

Right now that goal is to prepare student for college.  Most of the rest of the world already knows that not every child will go on to college/university, nor should they.  The world needs tradesmen.

Putting every student into a Chemistry or Algebra II is a waste of time for those students that wont utilize it and lowers the level of education for students that will utilized it.

Everyone looses when you try to educate everyone the same.
 
2013-06-08 05:11:00 PM

uber humper: What does their ranking metric indicate, how well they will work in a factory-like environment? Individualism, people.  That's the answer.


You can get test questions with high reliability and validity. Psycometricians make a lot of money for a reason.

I think the key is, as you've alluded to, getting kids to learn how to learn.  That is one of the reasons our species has come to "dominate" the planet - we love to learn. And yet schools and teachers (and I have been guilty of this) seem to enter with the assumption that students/kids don't want to learn.  So they instead blame the kid or the parent instead of looking inward at the system/classroom/curriculum they've designed.  Our society bows before the gods of coverage and the spiral curriculum.  And it is costing us greatly.
 
2013-06-08 05:12:08 PM

Satan's Chocolate Starfish: If the majority of parents did more than simply send their kids to school every day (if they even do that) and check in at the end of the quarter to see the report card, we'd all be better off.  Start expecting As and Bs out of every kid.  Keep on top of what's happening in the classroom every day, not just at report card time.  Have regular contact with the teachers.  Be aware of what is happening in other classrooms/schools, and if your kid doesn't appear to be getting the benefit of resources and good teaching, ask the administration some tough questions.  You may not be aware of something that explains away your concerns.  Or you may identify defects that must be fixed for the sake of the kids.

Biatching at school board meetings and complaining on blogs often has only limited effect.  Being regularly involved in schooling and with your kids' teachers can make a huge difference.


Education, the one interaction with government where you will never see a black helicopter.
 
2013-06-08 05:12:54 PM

shtychkn: Everyone looses when you try to educate everyone the same.


I wasn't proposing educating everyone the same.

shtychkn: Unfortunately, you can't have it all.


Why not?  All I want is every kid to be given the chance to learn what they want to learn how they want to learn it with a guide at the side who is knowledgeable about learning and creating and sustaining functional learning spaces.

Is that too much to ask?
 
2013-06-08 05:13:51 PM
It is extremely embarrassing how many teachers seem to go out of their way to make sure any reportable numbers are inflated. There is no school or state that is immune to this.

puddleonfire: I used to be a secondary scorer for state competency essays, so I'm getting a kick out of this.
Essays were scanned.
With 10th grade essays, only a small fraction were written in cursive.


As a teacher, let me just say, F cursive. Students should be allowed to use word processors on state writing exams.
 
2013-06-08 05:16:57 PM

John Dewey: shtychkn: Everyone looses when you try to educate everyone the same.

I wasn't proposing educating everyone the same.



Our current system does however.  Everyone has the same requirements to graduate from High School. We do not recognize that some students need an education to prepare them for College, and other need an education to prepare them for a trade.


shtychkn: Unfortunately, you can't have it all.

Why not?  All I want is every kid to be given the chance to learn what they want to learn how they want to learn it with a guide at the side who is knowledgeable about learning and creating and sustaining functional learning spaces.

Is that too much to ask?


Unfortunately, yes.  That requires vast amount of resources and internal motivation on behalf of the learner.
 
2013-06-08 05:17:29 PM
Pumpernickel bread:

There are no mandated standardized tests in Finland


You make it sound like Sweden has a single test they administer on graduation.


I make what now?
 
2013-06-08 05:18:32 PM

PapaChester: It is extremely embarrassing how many teachers seem to go out of their way to make sure any reportable numbers are inflated. There is no school or state that is immune to this.

puddleonfire: I used to be a secondary scorer for state competency essays, so I'm getting a kick out of this.
Essays were scanned.
With 10th grade essays, only a small fraction were written in cursive.

As a teacher, let me just say, F cursive. Students should be allowed to use word processors on state writing exams.



That isn't just teachers.  People in every profession attempt to "boost" their stats.
 
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