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(NYPost)   Let's see what happens in New York City schools when students get their tests graded by an impartial outside evaluator instead of teachers with a vested interest in socially promoting the little sociopaths to be somebody else's problem   (nypost.com ) divider line
    More: Fail, New York City, mitigating factors  
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19199 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Jun 2013 at 11:38 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-08 12:30:04 PM  

Gulper Eel: RedPhoenix122: If it's a NY Post article, there's nothing impartial about it.

I'll call a waaaaaaaambulance for you.

The NYC education system has a well-earned reputation for poor performance (despite ample funding) and corruption, including cheating on standardized tests, a reputation and a documented history which does not disappear because the evil New York Post wrote about it.

A small sampling of additional citations:

NY Daily News.
Daily Beast.
The Atlantic.
NY Times.


Then how about we link one of those instead of the Murdoch Compost.
 
2013-06-08 12:30:06 PM  

HoratioGates: "In US History, schools whose exams were graded centrally saw their passing rates drop by an average of 3.9 percentage points from 2011 to 2012.

By contrast, schools that graded their own exams boosted their passing rates by an average of 2.4 percentage points."- Huh?  Is there a third option baseline they are comparing against?

HighlanderRPI: Ah, the Regents exam, I grew up in NY and had to take those awful things - I could never understand why a "standardized" test like that could have essay questions - there is no way to standardize the grading, as the grading of an essay question is highly subjective.

/Had a number of teachers in my school that used to spend the last 2-3 months of the year basically teaching to the exam to make sure they passed
//I Tutored one high school girl who could not point to the Atlantic Ocean on an unlabeled map of the world

My mother worked on the Regents exams for years.  (She is retiring from State Ed later this month).  There is something called 'Rubrics'.  It is possible to score essays consistently as long as you have good rubrics and you follow them.  I'm oversimplifying, but basically you have a checklist of elements that you look for and each one is worth X amount.


This is correct.  I used rubrics all the time once I found their existence; and I was a geometry teacher.  I'd let the kids participate in how things should be scored.  Take the standard two column geometry proof.  I'd let kids weigh in on how to grade the logic and how it was reasoned.  Then I'd grade per this agreed upon method.  I also always did an artsy tessellation project, very subjective on how to grade until the students were allowed to design the grading method.  Rubrics - Awesome tools.
 
2013-06-08 12:30:56 PM  

Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.


The "flawed system" is a good system, it's just being misused. The point of the system is (rather "should be") if you have an 8th grader reading at a 6th grade reading level, they should be in a 6th grade reading class where they will not struggle and might actually pass (thus getting schools passing grades and funding). Conversely, if you have a 6th grader reading at an 8th grade level they should be in an 8th grade reading class where they will be challenged and learn. Originally, "No Child Left Behind" was supposed to be an effort to educate children at their level until they can master it. Instead, it turned into a path of dumbing down higher levels of learning to compensate for snowflakes who would fail otherwise. The only flaw in the system is in the interpretation.
 
2013-06-08 12:31:14 PM  
This needs the "Obvious" tag, though it is also a "FAIL"
 
2013-06-08 12:31:25 PM  

Lsherm: Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.  So we graduate retards.


They only care about paday because they are paid nothing and live paycheck to paycheck, unlike most westernized countries.

And also your fat lil american kid is a total shiathead.

/trolls
 
2013-06-08 12:31:53 PM  

ERNesbitt: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

The "flawed system" is a good system, it's just being misused. The point of the system is (rather "should be") if you have an 8th grader reading at a 6th grade reading level, they should be in a 6th grade reading class where they will not struggle and might actually pass (thus getting schools passing grades and funding). Conversely, if you have a 6th grader reading at an 8th grade level they should be in an 8th grade reading class where they will be challenged and learn. Originally, "No Child Left Behind" was supposed to be an effort to educate children at their level until they can master it. Instead, it turned into a path of dumbing down higher levels of learning to compensate for snowflakes who would fail otherwise. The only flaw in the system is in the interpretation.


The 'flaw' in the system is that when kids fail the tests, the schools get punished with reduced funding.
 
2013-06-08 12:34:57 PM  
Grade inflation has been a fact of life since schools first came into existence.  You're never going to remove subjectivity and administration pressure from teaching.

The system causes me to truly care only about my own kids being properly educated.  I'm not concerned about them meeting only minimum standards.  They're expected to perform to their absolute best ability.  If other parents are satisfied with their kids shooting for the minimums, that's their problem.  When the majority of parents demand real excellence from their kids and the schools, we will move beyond bullshiat standardized testing and bringing up the rear guard.  Instead, the focus will return to competitiveness and pushing all kids to exceed expectations, not just squeak by.
 
2013-06-08 12:35:34 PM  
"If we had 10 people grading a paper . . . where that teacher's coming from may determine how that teacher sees that paper," he said. "You always have disagreement when you have that subjectivity."

Of course 2+2 may not always equal 4, you know, depending on where the teacher comes from. Facts are always subjective. Disagreement is good when jobs and funding are at stake and blame is to be attributed.
 
2013-06-08 12:35:59 PM  

bismark189: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

Do your history, bud.  Good ole Teddy K. created the bill.  Little Bush just tossed him a bone and signed it.

That said, being a former teacher, NCLB is a load of shiat.


Meanwhile Republican governors and Republican state legislatures grandstand about Obamacare, but not one has told the Department of Edumakashun where they can put their NCLB.
 
Ehh
2013-06-08 12:36:35 PM  

HighlanderRPI: I could never understand why a "standardized" test like that could have essay questions - there is no way to standardize the grading, as the grading of an essay question is highly subjective.


The grading of essays is much less subjective than it would seem. Sure, a machine can't do it, but with an afternoon of training and a dozen samples, you can learn to weigh the evaluation criteria like a robot.

/on topic?
/argument?
/length?
/paragraphs?
/sentence structure?
/grammar, spelling?
 
2013-06-08 12:37:43 PM  

Lsherm: Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.  So we graduate retards.


yeah those damn greedy teachers, they're the real problem.

Unless you work in education or know someone who does then shut the fark up you twat.
 
2013-06-08 12:39:20 PM  

lenfromak: Lost Thought 00: Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.

A private school would not be in business for long if it did not produce results. That's how the real world operates.


The results are already there. 5th generation Yale kids don't exactly need to be brilliant to live off their managed portfolios.
 
2013-06-08 12:40:48 PM  

Infernalist: ERNesbitt: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

The "flawed system" is a good system, it's just being misused. The point of the system is (rather "should be") if you have an 8th grader reading at a 6th grade reading level, they should be in a 6th grade reading class where they will not struggle and might actually pass (thus getting schools passing grades and funding). Conversely, if you have a 6th grader reading at an 8th grade level they should be in an 8th grade reading class where they will be challenged and learn. Originally, "No Child Left Behind" was supposed to be an effort to educate children at their level until they can master it. Instead, it turned into a path of dumbing down higher levels of learning to compensate for snowflakes who would fail otherwise. The only flaw in the system is in the interpretation.

The 'flaw' in the system is that when kids fail the tests, the schools get punished with reduced funding.


If children were measured and tested at their appropriate skill level instead of a fixed age-based grade level, more children would pass. Pass all of your 12th grade tests and you can graduate... simple. More funding =/= better education.
 
2013-06-08 12:43:24 PM  

ERNesbitt: Infernalist: ERNesbitt: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

The "flawed system" is a good system, it's just being misused. The point of the system is (rather "should be") if you have an 8th grader reading at a 6th grade reading level, they should be in a 6th grade reading class where they will not struggle and might actually pass (thus getting schools passing grades and funding). Conversely, if you have a 6th grader reading at an 8th grade level they should be in an 8th grade reading class where they will be challenged and learn. Originally, "No Child Left Behind" was supposed to be an effort to educate children at their level until they can master it. Instead, it turned into a path of dumbing down higher levels of learning to compensate for snowflakes who would fail otherwise. The only flaw in the system is in the interpretation.

The 'flaw' in the system is that when kids fail the tests, the schools get punished with reduced funding.

If children were measured and tested at their appropriate skill level instead of a fixed age-based grade level, more children would pass. Pass all of your 12th grade tests and you can graduate... simple. More funding =/= better education.


And less funding = better education?
 
2013-06-08 12:48:32 PM  

RedPhoenix122: If it's a NY Post article, there's nothing impartial about it.


This'd!

The NY Compost is a MurdochCo propaganda unit. Never forget that.
 
2013-06-08 12:48:38 PM  
Bush's fault. I do really blame him....NCLB took what was already a systemic problem into new heights by basically saying it's now government sanctioned and POTUS himself wants you to cheat so it's ok ... go ahead and cheat and the dumbing down of America continues.
 
2013-06-08 12:49:35 PM  

Lsherm: Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.  So we graduate retards.


While not entirely true, it's pretty close.

The dying inside part of teaching usually happens when a teacher is moved to the middle/high school level and they see that they wasted time on kids in elementary. Little Johnny turned out to be an asshole 17yr old regardless of, or as a direct result of, all of their hand holding and you're all special speeches.
 
2013-06-08 12:50:49 PM  
I can tell you without reading TFA -

Mayor Bloomberg - "NYC Mayor Bloomberg Tells Kids To 'Speak Grammar'
 
2013-06-08 12:51:37 PM  

lenfromak: Lost Thought 00: Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.

A private school would not be in business for long if it did not produce results. That's how the real world operates.


Yes but results are "satisfied customers willing to pay".  That is not necessarily achieved by smartening the kids.  Many parents would rather have bragging rights about the perceived exclusivity or achievement of the school than reality.
 
2013-06-08 12:52:55 PM  
Infernalist:

And less funding = better education?

Oh, I have a whole different rant on funding... It comes from watching administrators "cut the budget" by laying off teachers. Then, the board and administrators go into executive session and vote themselves a nice 6% pay increase as an "at-a-boy" for successfully cutting the budget. Funding should be equally distributed across the board based on indicators such as the area's cost of living, mean income, population, and (yes) educational performance. The administrators should have the ability to grade teachers' performance (as should the students) and evaluate them accordingly. Low job performance comes with penalties in non-education vocations, why not in education as well?
 
2013-06-08 12:55:22 PM  
i52.tinypic.com
 
2013-06-08 12:58:10 PM  

Lsherm: Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.  So we graduate retards.


to be fair, as someone who worked privately in a gentrified public elementary school for nearly my entire 20's, we aren't graduating retards.  The retards are graduating.  Drive-by parenting will always create angry humanoid children.  These angry children present in a myriad of dysfunctional behavioral cries for help.  And the result?  Immature, fresh-out-of-the-classroom teachers develop a PTSD of sorts, and the child gets the same treatment at school as at home.  No one has the time to teach this child that they can be hated if they are selfish.  Hate doesn't wait for a magic age.  If you suck, you suck.  And the beat goes on.

The definition of retarded is more or less "behind expected progress" yes?  So, if you believe in Maslow's hierarchy, or some alternative of the theory, than all neglected children are retarded.

/Potato, Potahto, I know.
 
2013-06-08 01:01:14 PM  

Summer Glau's Love Slave: Lsherm: Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.   So we graduate retards.

Your thesis alone lends tremendous anecdotal weight to your arguments.

/Wait for it...


I see what you did there.

/You are a very evil person, and you should be proud of yourself.
 
2013-06-08 01:02:18 PM  

Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.


It wasn't Bush's leguslation, it was ted kennedy. Bush worked with him, but calling it his is beyond dumb.

Why do liberals constantly try to rewrite history. For farks sake.
 
2013-06-08 01:02:47 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: bismark189: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

Do your history, bud.  Good ole Teddy K. created the bill.  Little Bush just tossed him a bone and signed it.

That said, being a former teacher, NCLB is a load of shiat.

I disagree, NCLB is/was an improvement over the previous system of ignoring the problem.  NCLB set up a system to measure results and required that every student be measured every year.

Objective measurement is going to be a cornerstone of any valid education reform.  If you don't know where you are doing it right and where you are failing, then you have no ability to improve.  NCLB got that much right, and I'll give a big ole fark you to anyone who says we need a more "holistic" approach to measurement.  If it's not an objective measure it's not a measure.  If you feel that there are things not being measured, then find a way to measure them don't throw out the valid measurements.  Attention span, self discipline and ability to ignore distraction are all things that should be and can be measured but are being ignored.  That doesn't mean that we should throw out the metrics that do work.

Public education will never succeed with 100% of children, so on the face of it No Child Left Behind's goal of 100% meeting graduation standards can never be achieved.  On the other hand, the public system should be able to move 100% of all students forward in each year.  They may not reach the ultimate goal, but as long as they are moving forward the system is working.


Measure.

Honestly, 100% of our kids ought to graduate every year.
 
2013-06-08 01:03:21 PM  
Sorry for the double-post, but I really baked my own noodle with my own post.

Are retarded children neglected, or are neglected children retarded?

This might be the beginning of finding the answer to life, people.  We need some case study on this hypothesis!

/I'm what happens when George Carlin and Mr. Rodgers have a love child together.
 
2013-06-08 01:06:38 PM  
If the majority of parents did more than simply send their kids to school every day (if they even do that) and check in at the end of the quarter to see the report card, we'd all be better off.  Start expecting As and Bs out of every kid.  Keep on top of what's happening in the classroom every day, not just at report card time.  Have regular contact with the teachers.  Be aware of what is happening in other classrooms/schools, and if your kid doesn't appear to be getting the benefit of resources and good teaching, ask the administration some tough questions.  You may not be aware of something that explains away your concerns.  Or you may identify defects that must be fixed for the sake of the kids.

Biatching at school board meetings and complaining on blogs often has only limited effect.  Being regularly involved in schooling and with your kids' teachers can make a huge difference.
 
2013-06-08 01:09:22 PM  

Fano: John Dewey: Let's see what happens when we teach teachers to not use tests or curriculum to be the be all and end all.

But but how can we tell if the children is learning without standardized tests?


Clearly you aren't in favor of standardized testing, so why don't you try answering the question: if you don't use standardized testing, what's your metric for determining whether a kid has been educated or not?
 
2013-06-08 01:12:22 PM  

puddleonfire: I used to be a secondary scorer for state competency essays, so I'm getting a kick out of this.
Essays were scanned.
With 10th grade essays, only a small fraction were written in cursive.


As a Early American Historian (Antebellum to be exact) I resoundingly cheer the long overdue death of cursive script. People keep saying that its a dieing art, but I have to say it was never really alive in the first place. Yes, there are some amazing examples of lovely script. There are, however, vastly more examples of near illegible cursive. The complete switch to block script can't happen soon enough.

/yes, I know that some people can't write in block either. There is a significant portion of the population that shouldn't be allowed near a writing utensil.
// I'm old enough to have been given cursive instruction in school and I do almost all my work typed on a computer
///Two guesses which group I'm in.
 
2013-06-08 01:15:34 PM  
When I saw the graphic at the bottom I mistook it for an Onion article...
 
2013-06-08 01:18:21 PM  

jjorsett: Fano: John Dewey: Let's see what happens when we teach teachers to not use tests or curriculum to be the be all and end all.

But but how can we tell if the children is learning without standardized tests?

Clearly you aren't in favor of standardized testing, so why don't you try answering the question: if you don't use standardized testing, what's your metric for determining whether a kid has been educated or not?


C. He knows how to Christmas tree good
 
2013-06-08 01:20:22 PM  

Gulper Eel: RedPhoenix122: If it's a NY Post article, there's nothing impartial about it.

I'll call a waaaaaaaambulance for you.

The NYC education system has a well-earned reputation for poor performance (despite ample funding) and corruption, including cheating on standardized tests, a reputation and a documented history which does not disappear because the evil New York Post wrote about it.

A small sampling of additional citations:

NY Daily News.
Daily Beast.
The Atlantic.
NY Times.


Agreed; as a product of said schools, I can attest to that.  There are very good teachers in the school system; sadly however, the are too many who either are unable or unfit to deal with being a teacher in the system.  The union (because they'd rather have quantity than quality) keeps sticking up for them.

Granted, the teachers are just one part of a larger problem: the board itself.  Now, if Republicans weren't so goddamn reprehensible as a whole, maybe they'd have traction here and help reform the system.

Since the state GOP's not that much different than the RNC as a whole, I wouldn't want them within 10 miles of the school system.  So, unless, there's a reformist movement with the Democratic Party that pretty much declares jihad on the old boy network, we're pretty much stuck with what we have.  Better the devil you do know and all that.
 
2013-06-08 01:23:03 PM  

Lost Thought 00: Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.


Oh yes indeed. Because one of the things parents pay through the nose for is super-stringent marking.

There was a bit of a row a few years back in the UK when it turned out that many thousands of pupils at private schools had been given A grades for school marked assessment components which actually deserved to fail. I am amazed that anyone was surprised by this.
 
2013-06-08 01:23:47 PM  

Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.


You mean the bill co-authored by Ted Kennedy and George Miller?  The one that passed 384-45 in the House and 91-8 in the Senate?  Of the 53 Nay votes, 34 of them came from Republicans, so you can't even claim that the Democrats were the only ones standing against it at all.  Both parties own this bill and bullshiat program.
 
2013-06-08 01:27:17 PM  

SheltemDragon: People keep saying that its a dieing art


*sigh*
 
2013-06-08 01:29:28 PM  
Ya'll must be talking about that "No child left behind" thing created by Bush administration.
(See what I did there?)
 
2013-06-08 01:31:11 PM  
Until we acknowledge that not all students are equal with the same ability to succeed, we'll be stuck with this failed system. Most school districts shut down their vocational and technical programs, which gave the opportunity for students who would not be able to make it to college to learn marketable skills. Now we pretend that with just a little extra teaching and better tests, they will all be little Einsteins.
 
2013-06-08 01:31:39 PM  

ginandbacon: SheltemDragon: People keep saying that its a dieing art

*sigh*


i1125.photobucket.com

/STOP!
//Seizure time.
 
2013-06-08 01:34:35 PM  

OdradekRex: Until we acknowledge that not all students are equal with the same ability to succeed, we'll be stuck with this failed system. Most school districts shut down their vocational and technical programs, which gave the opportunity for students who would not be able to make it to college to learn marketable skills. Now we pretend that with just a little extra teaching and better tests, they will all be little Einsteins.


Your kid is stupid, and probably should aspire to be a welder, at best.
 
2013-06-08 01:43:14 PM  

Satan's Chocolate Starfish: If the majority of parents did more than simply send their kids to school every day (if they even do that) and check in at the end of the quarter to see the report card, we'd all be better off.  Start expecting As and Bs out of every kid.  Keep on top of what's happening in the classroom every day, not just at report card time.  Have regular contact with the teachers.  Be aware of what is happening in other classrooms/schools, and if your kid doesn't appear to be getting the benefit of resources and good teaching, ask the administration some tough questions.  You may not be aware of something that explains away your concerns.  Or you may identify defects that must be fixed for the sake of the kids.

Biatching at school board meetings and complaining on blogs often has only limited effect.  Being regularly involved in schooling and with your kids' teachers can make a huge difference.


butbutbut what about parents' *liberty* to fart out kids and ignore them?
 
2013-06-08 01:43:51 PM  

legion_of_doo: Why test at all?

What we need to do is ignore the situation, never test for anything, pay all the teachers (and especially the school administrators) and then we'll know that the children is learning.

/Because capitalism failed us, and we need to be more like Soviet Russia.

Hitler
/FTFY

1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-06-08 01:48:14 PM  

MNguy: OdradekRex: Until we acknowledge that not all students are equal with the same ability to succeed, we'll be stuck with this failed system. Most school districts shut down their vocational and technical programs, which gave the opportunity for students who would not be able to make it to college to learn marketable skills. Now we pretend that with just a little extra teaching and better tests, they will all be little Einsteins.

Your kid is stupid, and probably should aspire to be a welder, at best.


Or a lumber jack; leaping from tree to tree as they float down the mighty rivers of British Columbia. And he could sing, sing, SING!

/Cannot take this thread seriously.
//Feel as if I'm a musician aboard the Titanic.
 
2013-06-08 01:51:53 PM  

Lsherm: Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.  So we graduate retards.


Congratulations, you just won the Fark most ignorant post of the year award.  Your prize?  Continued ridicule from the rest of us.  You deserve it.
 
2013-06-08 01:52:10 PM  

Lsherm: Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.  So we graduate retards.


We don't just graduate them - we inflate their GPAs to boot.

Median GPA at my high school was a 3.3 as they did everything in their power to keep them as high as possible.  You had to try hard not to get good grades.

// Had a 2.1
 
2013-06-08 01:57:24 PM  
OMG... this thread... what is this, I don't even...
 
2013-06-08 01:58:08 PM  

MNguy: Mr. Eugenides: bismark189: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

Do your history, bud.  Good ole Teddy K. created the bill.  Little Bush just tossed him a bone and signed it.

That said, being a former teacher, NCLB is a load of shiat.

I disagree, NCLB is/was an improvement over the previous system of ignoring the problem.  NCLB set up a system to measure results and required that every student be measured every year.

Objective measurement is going to be a cornerstone of any valid education reform.  If you don't know where you are doing it right and where you are failing, then you have no ability to improve.  NCLB got that much right, and I'll give a big ole fark you to anyone who says we need a more "holistic" approach to measurement.  If it's not an objective measure it's not a measure.  If you feel that there are things not being measured, then find a way to measure them don't throw out the valid measurements.  Attention span, self discipline and ability to ignore distraction are all things that should be and can be measured but are being ignored.  That doesn't mean that we should throw out the metrics that do work.

Public education will never succeed with 100% of children, so on the face of it No Child Left Behind's goal of 100% meeting graduation standards can never be achieved.  On the other hand, the public system should be able to move 100% of all students forward in each year.  They may not reach the ultimate goal, but as long as they are moving forward the system is working.

Measure.

Honestly, 100% of our kids ought to graduate every year.


100% includes some severely developmentally disabled and delayed kids.  Children who are in the bottom 5% are often not capable of meeting graduation requirements (particularly Minnesota's which has some of the highest grad requirements in the nation) in 12 years.  Every child should move forward every year (right now we fail kids at the middle school level where some move backwards) every child who is below the standard should receive extra tutoring and counseling in the areas she's behind.  But forcing kids to meet an arbitrary deadline at age 17/18 is setting things up for institutional failure.
 
2013-06-08 01:59:50 PM  

Guido Libido: OMG... this thread... what is this, I don't even...


It's an internet sensation involving people vomiting their thoughts into a discussion. But that's not important right now.

Ah Airplane 1 and 2. I need to watch them again
 
2013-06-08 02:01:57 PM  
In Living Environment, pilot schools saw their passing rates plummet by an average of 6.7 percentage points last year.

Self-grading schools only dropped by 2 percentage points.


So not even the NEA union goons could cheat enough to disguise the fact that the teachers are getting worse every year. NEA does for education what the UAW does for American car production.
 
2013-06-08 02:03:22 PM  

jjorsett: Fano: John Dewey: Let's see what happens when we teach teachers to not use tests or curriculum to be the be all and end all.

But but how can we tell if the children is learning without standardized tests?

Clearly you aren't in favor of standardized testing, so why don't you try answering the question: if you don't use standardized testing, what's your metric for determining whether a kid has been educated or not?


IMHO, standardized testing should be very challenging and should be used to measure how well schools are doing at developing good students.  Too often it is used primarily to identify under-performing students and schools.  And, sure, that's an important measurement to consider.  But start handing out state aid, at least in large part, on the basis of how many excellent students a school creates, and you'll see change.  If school districts see a good part of their state aid pot of gold tied up in high performance expectations, participation and excellent performance in AP classes,  the opportunity to participate and do well in quality vocational training, high acceptance rates for students in post-secondary academic or vocational programs, etc., maybe the focus won't be so strongly on simply ensuring that students and teachers meet minimum standards.

And, yes, there are all kinds of social and environmental and economic factors in play.  They obviously can't be ignored.  So incentivize the hell out of the situation.  Weight state aid by performance in relation to per capita expenditures.  The better the value a district gives for all the millions taxpayers pour into it, the better its aid allotment.  If well-funded districts routinely under-perform, investigate the hell out of the situation and make changes.  If communities are under-funding districts in comparison to similarly situated communities and their children's educations are suffering, put them under a mandate to adequately fund their schools.  If adequately funded schools still suck, hammer down on the minutiae.  Is it lousy parents who allow chronic absenteeism?  Get on it and fix it.  Will you be able to make it perfect?  Of course not.  But hold parents accountable for basic things like making sure healthy kids are in school every day.

Are other factors in play?  Does your school have a disproportionate number of children from poor families who don't do well?  Get after it.  Don't just blame teachers and administrators.  Identify the social/environmental problems that are affecting classroom performance and work on change every day--permanently.  And if you do have certain teachers who are always at the bottom of the performance chart for no reasonable reason, then make changes there, too.  Bring outside evaluation into the classrooms of weaker teachers.  Work with them to bring their skills up to par.  If it doesn't happen quickly, get rid of them.  Don't let them continue to be the weak point in the children's educations.

And don't let stats dictate decision-making.  Every school should have a group of parents, educators, students, community representatives who evaluate every class in every grade level from a multitude of perspectives.  It's not good enough to just rely on standardized test results and graduation rates.  These outside evaluators should know if certain teachers are carrying an extra burden because of class makeup or a lack of student teachers or inadequate remedial assistance for struggling students.  Teachers should be measured, in part, on how well their students perform at the next grade level.  If it becomes clear that certain teachers are not adequately preparing their kids for success at the next level, then immediate intervention is necessary.  Computer resources and libraries and teaching technology should be constantly evaluated to make sure the school is competitive.

I'm sure many school districts do some of these things, just as I'm sure many school districts do a shiat job.  And the likelihood of holding parents who don't care accountable?  Just about the same as getting powerful teachers unions to stop drawing lines in the sand that they will never cross.
 
2013-06-08 02:04:08 PM  

Lost Thought 00: Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.


Our son has attended private school for six years and we've not seen this behavior.  Instead,
1. A grandfather who bought a gymnasium (yes, a beautiful gym with bleachers and hardwood floors) with his name on it (the kid did not pass the kindergarten entrance exam and thus was not admitted.  There is a 7:1 applicant to admission ratio)
2. Another dad, trying to assure kindergarten access for his oldest, donated $40,000.  (They returned the check).
3. Descendents of a large candy company donate six figures every year (their youngest has contract-mandated summer tutoring so he can keep up with classmates).
4. A private, third-party company in another state grades the exams and compares to other private schools (I've seen their scoring, and they don't know or care how much daddy makes).

Of course, YMMV.
 
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