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(NYPost)   Let's see what happens in New York City schools when students get their tests graded by an impartial outside evaluator instead of teachers with a vested interest in socially promoting the little sociopaths to be somebody else's problem   (nypost.com) divider line 183
    More: Fail, New York City, mitigating factors  
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19186 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Jun 2013 at 11:38 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-08 08:27:42 AM  
If it's a NY Post article, there's nothing impartial about it.
 
2013-06-08 08:59:56 AM  

RedPhoenix122: If it's a NY Post article, there's nothing impartial about it.


I'll call a waaaaaaaambulance for you.

The NYC education system has a well-earned reputation for poor performance (despite ample funding) and corruption, including cheating on standardized tests, a reputation and a documented history which does not disappear because the evil New York Post wrote about it.

A small sampling of additional citations:

NY Daily News.
Daily Beast.
The Atlantic.
NY Times.
 
2013-06-08 09:01:15 AM  
Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.
 
2013-06-08 09:21:19 AM  

Lost Thought 00: Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.


That's an unfair comparison.

Private schools offer teachers MUCH better compensation and let them decide how to teach as opposed to telling them. Also kids who go to private schools, even boarding schools, tend to have parents who are at least try to instill in their kids the value of education.

I love kids in private schools and cashin' them private school paychecks. You get the best classes in the world when the kids know why they're there and they're not just being warehoused for 6 hours a day against their will.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-06-08 09:46:13 AM  
You could fix the incentives by making schools grade on a curve. No, all those little angels are not brighter than average.

I worked for a megacorporation that expected employees to be graded on a curve during annual performance reviews. Only a few could be above average. A few percent were expected to receive unsatisfactory grades.  In theory a division full of superstars* would be treated badly by the policy. In practice you don't find hundreds of perfect workers together.

Then you'd have to find another way to see how badly the school sucks. A prisoner exchange program would be informative. Send all the kids from Weston** to Roxbury schools, and vice versa, for a few days. Let the teachers render an opinion on the foreign students. Give them a few tests.

* The term "rock stars" came and went a few years ago to describe good software developers (as opposed to tempermental people who are hard to work with, which is what rock stars really are).

** Weston is a suburb of ultra-rich, white xenophobes. Roxbury is one of the poor, dark-skinned parts of Boston.
 
2013-06-08 09:55:41 AM  

doglover: Private schools offer teachers MUCH better compensation


Not so much.

"In 2007-08, the average annual base salary of regular full-time public school teachers ($49,600) was higher than the average annual base salary of regular full-time private school teachers ($36,300)."
 
2013-06-08 10:05:56 AM  
Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.  So we graduate retards.
 
2013-06-08 10:07:30 AM  

Gulper Eel: doglover: Private schools offer teachers MUCH better compensation

Not so much.

"In 2007-08, the average annual base salary of regular full-time public school teachers ($49,600) was higher than the average annual base salary of regular full-time private school teachers ($36,300)."


Yeah they make much less, have worse benefits, and if they work for a religious school, they can't get unemployment if they get laid off.

The only thing that the cost of education indicates is that the school system is in an area with a high cost of living and that a lot of the students come from homes with a lower level of educational attainment or that the district is educating many children with developmental issues and/or children of immigrants.
 
2013-06-08 10:26:08 AM  

ginandbacon: The only thing that the cost of education indicates is that the school system is in an area with a high cost of living and that a lot of the students come from homes with a lower level of educational attainment or that the district is educating many children with developmental issues and/or children of immigrants.


THIS.

It is a pain in the ass to get numbers broken down by what the district is paying per standard pupil, what they're paying per special-ed pupil, and what they're paying per child from hyperlitigious family that knows education law cold. Districts where administrators don't have their shiat together will occasionally go so far as to settle with a litigious family in exchange for the family using the settlement money to move out of the district, so that they can go be bothersome asshats somewhere else.
 
2013-06-08 11:02:47 AM  
 
2013-06-08 11:45:25 AM  
images1.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2013-06-08 11:46:02 AM  

John Dewey: Let's see what happens when we teach teachers to not use tests or curriculum to be the be all and end all.


But but how can we tell if the children is learning without standardized tests?
 
2013-06-08 11:47:41 AM  
Go Teacher Unions!
 
2013-06-08 11:47:49 AM  
1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.
 
2013-06-08 11:48:00 AM  

doglover: Lost Thought 00: Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.

That's an unfair comparison.

Private schools offer teachers MUCH better compensation and let them decide how to teach as opposed to telling them. Also kids who go to private schools, even boarding schools, tend to have parents who are at least try to instill in their kids the value of education.

I love kids in private schools and cashin' them private school paychecks. You get the best classes in the world when the kids know why they're there and they're not just being warehoused for 6 hours a day against their will.


Uhh...none of that is true in WI. Unless you are not counting religious schools as private schools
 
2013-06-08 11:48:26 AM  
Freakanomics at work.
 
2013-06-08 11:49:51 AM  
"No child left behind" so who cares?  Why even bother with tests anymore?  Just stick the kid in a room for 8 hours a day with a Spirograph & 12 years later throw an ugly cap on him and send him on his merry way...
 
2013-06-08 11:51:24 AM  
1.7% drop in math is almost inconsequential. Fire all the Living Environment teachers and replace them with retired engineers.
 
2013-06-08 11:54:05 AM  

Fano: John Dewey: Let's see what happens when we teach teachers to not use tests or curriculum to be the be all and end all.

But but how can we tell if the children is learning without standardized tests?


Why test at all?

What we need to do is ignore the situation, never test for anything, pay all the teachers (and especially the school administrators) and then we'll know that the children is learning.

/Because capitalism failed us, and we need to be more like Soviet Russia.
 
2013-06-08 11:54:42 AM  

Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.


Do your history, bud.  Good ole Teddy K. created the bill.  Little Bush just tossed him a bone and signed it.

That said, being a former teacher, NCLB is a load of shiat.
 
2013-06-08 11:55:54 AM  
why wasnt this an obvious tag? sure, they "failed", but this story is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OBVIOUS
 
2013-06-08 11:57:09 AM  

doglover: Lost Thought 00: Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.

That's an unfair comparison.

Private schools offer teachers MUCH better compensation and let them decide how to teach as opposed to telling them. Also kids who go to private schools, even boarding schools, tend to have parents who are at least try to instill in their kids the value of education.

I love kids in private schools and cashin' them private school paychecks. You get the best classes in the world when the kids know why they're there and they're not just being warehoused for 6 hours a day against their will.


I'll grant your other points, but I've heard the opposite for a lot of private schools...their faculty may get living on-campus, but get crap pay, even factoring that in.

/not saying they're bad schools, just saying...
 
2013-06-08 11:57:51 AM  

Lsherm: Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.   So we graduate retards.


Your thesis alone lends tremendous anecdotal weight to your arguments.

/Wait for it...
 
2013-06-08 11:58:09 AM  

MJMaloney187: 1.7% drop in math is almost inconsequential. Fire all the Living Environment teachers and replace them with retired engineers.


WTF is "Living Environment"? Biology? Earth science? Sounds like some Gaia-infused hippie bullcrap.
/Then again, "Earth science" isn't much better. Should've gone with "a buch of stuff that's outside."
 
2013-06-08 11:58:18 AM  

Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.


So...Bush's fault?
again
 
2013-06-08 11:59:29 AM  

Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.



Except that cheating among NYC school administrators and teachers has been commonplace both before and after NCLB - the bill that was initially sponsored in Congress by that noted GOP jesusbot flame-breathing racist monster Ted Kennedy.
 
2013-06-08 12:00:31 PM  
Ah, the Regents exam, I grew up in NY and had to take those awful things - I could never understand why a "standardized" test like that could have essay questions - there is no way to standardize the grading, as the grading of an essay question is highly subjective.

/Had a number of teachers in my school that used to spend the last 2-3 months of the year basically teaching to the exam to make sure they passed
//I Tutored one high school girl who could not point to the Atlantic Ocean on an unlabeled map of the world
 
2013-06-08 12:00:53 PM  
They are cheating kids out of an education by inflating scores while giving the students a false sense of accomplishment and confidence.
 
2013-06-08 12:01:24 PM  

bismark189: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

Do your history, bud.  Good ole Teddy K. created the bill.  Little Bush just tossed him a bone and signed it.

That said, being a former teacher, NCLB is a load of shiat.


NCLB was Texas policy long before it was nation-wide.  Bush jr had a hard-on for it as it'd been seen as a success(look at all those high test scores!).  He pushed it 'hard' once he got into the WH.

But yes, NCLB is an enormous pile of shiat.
 
2013-06-08 12:02:22 PM  
Subbys headline took on a weird meaning when I read it as Ovulator instead of evaluator
 
2013-06-08 12:02:36 PM  

Lost Thought 00: Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.


A private school would not be in business for long if it did not produce results. That's how the real world operates.
 
2013-06-08 12:02:37 PM  

studs up: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

So...Bush's fault?
again


I was merely commenting on the GOP rag raging about a failed GOP policy.
 
2013-06-08 12:04:56 PM  

doglover: Lost Thought 00: Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.

That's an unfair comparison.

Private schools offer teachers MUCH better compensation and let them decide how to teach as opposed to telling them. Also kids who go to private schools, even boarding schools, tend to have parents who are at least try to instill in their kids the value of education.

I love kids in private schools and cashin' them private school paychecks. You get the best classes in the world when the kids know why they're there and they're not just being warehoused for 6 hours a day against their will.


Perhaps US private schools are different but I suspect you've never met anyone that went to a private school
 
2013-06-08 12:05:54 PM  
"In US History, schools whose exams were graded centrally saw their passing rates drop by an average of 3.9 percentage points from 2011 to 2012.

"By contrast, schools that graded their own exams boosted their passing rates by an average of 2.4 percentage points."

That's not good but it's not nearly as bad as that article is trying to imply. And that's their worst example.
 
2013-06-08 12:06:13 PM  
Any education for lazy urbanites other than toilet scrubbing training is slave reparation wealth redistribution. Union public school teachers are the most evil threat this blessed nation has ever faced. Why yes, I do read the NYP, how did you know?
 
2013-06-08 12:07:04 PM  

Infernalist: studs up: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

So...Bush's fault?
again

I was merely commenting on the GOP rag raging about a failed GOP Bipartisan policy.


Fixed that for you...
 
2013-06-08 12:07:09 PM  

Lsherm: Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.  So we graduate retards.


I'm sure hordes of highly qualified teachers will begin submitting their applications if test scores determine pay!
 
2013-06-08 12:07:20 PM  
Who cares?  Standardized tests are bullshiat.

/Came from the state that pretty much created them (Texas).  Did fine on all of them.
/Had horrible uninspiring teachers for the most part dedicated to getting me to pass said stupid tests.
/Got to pretty rigorous university program and found inspiring teachers but struggled because I really didn't know crap about how to learn, except the occasional standardized test.
/Graduated low in class, up to ears in debt, the end.
 
2013-06-08 12:07:53 PM  

Maul555: Infernalist: studs up: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

So...Bush's fault?
again

I was merely commenting on the GOP rag raging about a failed GOP Bipartisan policy.

Fixed that for you...


Bush implemented it, he gets to own it.  That's how it works.
 
2013-06-08 12:08:47 PM  

John Dewey: Let's see what happens when we teach teachers to not use tests or curriculum to be the be all and end all.


Holy shiat ... that was the best TED talk I've ever seen. Brought tears to my eyes, I tell ya.
 
2013-06-08 12:11:26 PM  

legion_of_doo: Fano: John Dewey: Let's see what happens when we teach teachers to not use tests or curriculum to be the be all and end all.

But but how can we tell if the children is learning without standardized tests?

Why test at all?

What we need to do is ignore the situation, never test for anything, pay all the teachers (and especially the school administrators) and then we'll know that the children is learning.

/Because capitalism failed us, and we need to be more like Soviet Russia.


You mean good at math and physics?

I agree

/Also hammered on Vodak is pretty good to.
 
KIA
2013-06-08 12:11:51 PM  

Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.


Yes, because the GOP is renowned for running New York City. Their unquestioned dominance of the political scene there is surely the cause of all of this.

/ sarcasm off
 
2013-06-08 12:12:35 PM  

Uzzah: MJMaloney187: 1.7% drop in math is almost inconsequential. Fire all the Living Environment teachers and replace them with retired engineers.

WTF is "Living Environment"? Biology? Earth science? Sounds like some Gaia-infused hippie bullcrap.
/Then again, "Earth science" isn't much better. Should've gone with "a buch of stuff that's outside."


I don't know what Living Environment is. If it's Biology, then why not call it Biology? Retired engineers would teach Biology like a boss, too.
 
2013-06-08 12:13:29 PM  
Can't speak for New York, but teachers overall have diminishing authority in their own classrooms.  School districts are so paranoid about lawsuits that teachers are completely handcuffed when it comes to disciplining children, teaching curriculum, and getting authorities involved in the home lives of at-risk kids.

But by all means, let's keep blaming the teachers for kids being dumber every year.
 
2013-06-08 12:14:12 PM  

studs up: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

So...Bush's fault?
again


More like our faults for electing idiots that have the ability to screw us this badly.
 
2013-06-08 12:14:13 PM  

KIA: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

Yes, because the GOP is renowned for running New York City. Their unquestioned dominance of the political scene there is surely the cause of all of this.

/ sarcasm off


Ever heard of NCLB?
 
2013-06-08 12:15:34 PM  
"In US History, schools whose exams were graded centrally saw their passing rates drop by an average of 3.9 percentage points from 2011 to 2012.

By contrast, schools that graded their own exams boosted their passing rates by an average of 2.4 percentage points."- Huh?  Is there a third option baseline they are comparing against?

HighlanderRPI: Ah, the Regents exam, I grew up in NY and had to take those awful things - I could never understand why a "standardized" test like that could have essay questions - there is no way to standardize the grading, as the grading of an essay question is highly subjective.

/Had a number of teachers in my school that used to spend the last 2-3 months of the year basically teaching to the exam to make sure they passed
//I Tutored one high school girl who could not point to the Atlantic Ocean on an unlabeled map of the world


My mother worked on the Regents exams for years.  (She is retiring from State Ed later this month).  There is something called 'Rubrics'.  It is possible to score essays consistently as long as you have good rubrics and you follow them.  I'm oversimplifying, but basically you have a checklist of elements that you look for and each one is worth X amount.
 
2013-06-08 12:25:21 PM  
"If we had 10 people grading a paper . . . where that teacher's coming from may determine how that teacher sees that paper," he said. "You always have disagreement when you have that subjectivity."

A test were the outcome is subjective is not a very good test in the first place.  Maybe that's your damn problem you idiots.
 
2013-06-08 12:26:32 PM  

bismark189: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

Do your history, bud.  Good ole Teddy K. created the bill.  Little Bush just tossed him a bone and signed it.

That said, being a former teacher, NCLB is a load of shiat.


I disagree, NCLB is/was an improvement over the previous system of ignoring the problem.  NCLB set up a system to measure results and required that every student be measured every year.

Objective measurement is going to be a cornerstone of any valid education reform.  If you don't know where you are doing it right and where you are failing, then you have no ability to improve.  NCLB got that much right, and I'll give a big ole fark you to anyone who says we need a more "holistic" approach to measurement.  If it's not an objective measure it's not a measure.  If you feel that there are things not being measured, then find a way to measure them don't throw out the valid measurements.  Attention span, self discipline and ability to ignore distraction are all things that should be and can be measured but are being ignored.  That doesn't mean that we should throw out the metrics that do work.

Public education will never succeed with 100% of children, so on the face of it No Child Left Behind's goal of 100% meeting graduation standards can never be achieved.  On the other hand, the public system should be able to move 100% of all students forward in each year.  They may not reach the ultimate goal, but as long as they are moving forward the system is working.
 
2013-06-08 12:27:06 PM  
I used to be a secondary scorer for state competency essays, so I'm getting a kick out of this.
Essays were scanned.
With 10th grade essays, only a small fraction were written in cursive.
 
2013-06-08 12:30:04 PM  

Gulper Eel: RedPhoenix122: If it's a NY Post article, there's nothing impartial about it.

I'll call a waaaaaaaambulance for you.

The NYC education system has a well-earned reputation for poor performance (despite ample funding) and corruption, including cheating on standardized tests, a reputation and a documented history which does not disappear because the evil New York Post wrote about it.

A small sampling of additional citations:

NY Daily News.
Daily Beast.
The Atlantic.
NY Times.


Then how about we link one of those instead of the Murdoch Compost.
 
2013-06-08 12:30:06 PM  

HoratioGates: "In US History, schools whose exams were graded centrally saw their passing rates drop by an average of 3.9 percentage points from 2011 to 2012.

By contrast, schools that graded their own exams boosted their passing rates by an average of 2.4 percentage points."- Huh?  Is there a third option baseline they are comparing against?

HighlanderRPI: Ah, the Regents exam, I grew up in NY and had to take those awful things - I could never understand why a "standardized" test like that could have essay questions - there is no way to standardize the grading, as the grading of an essay question is highly subjective.

/Had a number of teachers in my school that used to spend the last 2-3 months of the year basically teaching to the exam to make sure they passed
//I Tutored one high school girl who could not point to the Atlantic Ocean on an unlabeled map of the world

My mother worked on the Regents exams for years.  (She is retiring from State Ed later this month).  There is something called 'Rubrics'.  It is possible to score essays consistently as long as you have good rubrics and you follow them.  I'm oversimplifying, but basically you have a checklist of elements that you look for and each one is worth X amount.


This is correct.  I used rubrics all the time once I found their existence; and I was a geometry teacher.  I'd let the kids participate in how things should be scored.  Take the standard two column geometry proof.  I'd let kids weigh in on how to grade the logic and how it was reasoned.  Then I'd grade per this agreed upon method.  I also always did an artsy tessellation project, very subjective on how to grade until the students were allowed to design the grading method.  Rubrics - Awesome tools.
 
2013-06-08 12:30:56 PM  

Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.


The "flawed system" is a good system, it's just being misused. The point of the system is (rather "should be") if you have an 8th grader reading at a 6th grade reading level, they should be in a 6th grade reading class where they will not struggle and might actually pass (thus getting schools passing grades and funding). Conversely, if you have a 6th grader reading at an 8th grade level they should be in an 8th grade reading class where they will be challenged and learn. Originally, "No Child Left Behind" was supposed to be an effort to educate children at their level until they can master it. Instead, it turned into a path of dumbing down higher levels of learning to compensate for snowflakes who would fail otherwise. The only flaw in the system is in the interpretation.
 
2013-06-08 12:31:14 PM  
This needs the "Obvious" tag, though it is also a "FAIL"
 
2013-06-08 12:31:25 PM  

Lsherm: Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.  So we graduate retards.


They only care about paday because they are paid nothing and live paycheck to paycheck, unlike most westernized countries.

And also your fat lil american kid is a total shiathead.

/trolls
 
2013-06-08 12:31:53 PM  

ERNesbitt: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

The "flawed system" is a good system, it's just being misused. The point of the system is (rather "should be") if you have an 8th grader reading at a 6th grade reading level, they should be in a 6th grade reading class where they will not struggle and might actually pass (thus getting schools passing grades and funding). Conversely, if you have a 6th grader reading at an 8th grade level they should be in an 8th grade reading class where they will be challenged and learn. Originally, "No Child Left Behind" was supposed to be an effort to educate children at their level until they can master it. Instead, it turned into a path of dumbing down higher levels of learning to compensate for snowflakes who would fail otherwise. The only flaw in the system is in the interpretation.


The 'flaw' in the system is that when kids fail the tests, the schools get punished with reduced funding.
 
2013-06-08 12:34:57 PM  
Grade inflation has been a fact of life since schools first came into existence.  You're never going to remove subjectivity and administration pressure from teaching.

The system causes me to truly care only about my own kids being properly educated.  I'm not concerned about them meeting only minimum standards.  They're expected to perform to their absolute best ability.  If other parents are satisfied with their kids shooting for the minimums, that's their problem.  When the majority of parents demand real excellence from their kids and the schools, we will move beyond bullshiat standardized testing and bringing up the rear guard.  Instead, the focus will return to competitiveness and pushing all kids to exceed expectations, not just squeak by.
 
2013-06-08 12:35:34 PM  
"If we had 10 people grading a paper . . . where that teacher's coming from may determine how that teacher sees that paper," he said. "You always have disagreement when you have that subjectivity."

Of course 2+2 may not always equal 4, you know, depending on where the teacher comes from. Facts are always subjective. Disagreement is good when jobs and funding are at stake and blame is to be attributed.
 
2013-06-08 12:35:59 PM  

bismark189: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

Do your history, bud.  Good ole Teddy K. created the bill.  Little Bush just tossed him a bone and signed it.

That said, being a former teacher, NCLB is a load of shiat.


Meanwhile Republican governors and Republican state legislatures grandstand about Obamacare, but not one has told the Department of Edumakashun where they can put their NCLB.
 
Ehh
2013-06-08 12:36:35 PM  

HighlanderRPI: I could never understand why a "standardized" test like that could have essay questions - there is no way to standardize the grading, as the grading of an essay question is highly subjective.


The grading of essays is much less subjective than it would seem. Sure, a machine can't do it, but with an afternoon of training and a dozen samples, you can learn to weigh the evaluation criteria like a robot.

/on topic?
/argument?
/length?
/paragraphs?
/sentence structure?
/grammar, spelling?
 
2013-06-08 12:37:43 PM  

Lsherm: Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.  So we graduate retards.


yeah those damn greedy teachers, they're the real problem.

Unless you work in education or know someone who does then shut the fark up you twat.
 
2013-06-08 12:39:20 PM  

lenfromak: Lost Thought 00: Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.

A private school would not be in business for long if it did not produce results. That's how the real world operates.


The results are already there. 5th generation Yale kids don't exactly need to be brilliant to live off their managed portfolios.
 
2013-06-08 12:40:48 PM  

Infernalist: ERNesbitt: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

The "flawed system" is a good system, it's just being misused. The point of the system is (rather "should be") if you have an 8th grader reading at a 6th grade reading level, they should be in a 6th grade reading class where they will not struggle and might actually pass (thus getting schools passing grades and funding). Conversely, if you have a 6th grader reading at an 8th grade level they should be in an 8th grade reading class where they will be challenged and learn. Originally, "No Child Left Behind" was supposed to be an effort to educate children at their level until they can master it. Instead, it turned into a path of dumbing down higher levels of learning to compensate for snowflakes who would fail otherwise. The only flaw in the system is in the interpretation.

The 'flaw' in the system is that when kids fail the tests, the schools get punished with reduced funding.


If children were measured and tested at their appropriate skill level instead of a fixed age-based grade level, more children would pass. Pass all of your 12th grade tests and you can graduate... simple. More funding =/= better education.
 
2013-06-08 12:43:24 PM  

ERNesbitt: Infernalist: ERNesbitt: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

The "flawed system" is a good system, it's just being misused. The point of the system is (rather "should be") if you have an 8th grader reading at a 6th grade reading level, they should be in a 6th grade reading class where they will not struggle and might actually pass (thus getting schools passing grades and funding). Conversely, if you have a 6th grader reading at an 8th grade level they should be in an 8th grade reading class where they will be challenged and learn. Originally, "No Child Left Behind" was supposed to be an effort to educate children at their level until they can master it. Instead, it turned into a path of dumbing down higher levels of learning to compensate for snowflakes who would fail otherwise. The only flaw in the system is in the interpretation.

The 'flaw' in the system is that when kids fail the tests, the schools get punished with reduced funding.

If children were measured and tested at their appropriate skill level instead of a fixed age-based grade level, more children would pass. Pass all of your 12th grade tests and you can graduate... simple. More funding =/= better education.


And less funding = better education?
 
2013-06-08 12:48:32 PM  

RedPhoenix122: If it's a NY Post article, there's nothing impartial about it.


This'd!

The NY Compost is a MurdochCo propaganda unit. Never forget that.
 
2013-06-08 12:48:38 PM  
Bush's fault. I do really blame him....NCLB took what was already a systemic problem into new heights by basically saying it's now government sanctioned and POTUS himself wants you to cheat so it's ok ... go ahead and cheat and the dumbing down of America continues.
 
2013-06-08 12:49:35 PM  

Lsherm: Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.  So we graduate retards.


While not entirely true, it's pretty close.

The dying inside part of teaching usually happens when a teacher is moved to the middle/high school level and they see that they wasted time on kids in elementary. Little Johnny turned out to be an asshole 17yr old regardless of, or as a direct result of, all of their hand holding and you're all special speeches.
 
2013-06-08 12:50:49 PM  
I can tell you without reading TFA -

Mayor Bloomberg - "NYC Mayor Bloomberg Tells Kids To 'Speak Grammar'
 
2013-06-08 12:51:37 PM  

lenfromak: Lost Thought 00: Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.

A private school would not be in business for long if it did not produce results. That's how the real world operates.


Yes but results are "satisfied customers willing to pay".  That is not necessarily achieved by smartening the kids.  Many parents would rather have bragging rights about the perceived exclusivity or achievement of the school than reality.
 
2013-06-08 12:52:55 PM  
Infernalist:

And less funding = better education?

Oh, I have a whole different rant on funding... It comes from watching administrators "cut the budget" by laying off teachers. Then, the board and administrators go into executive session and vote themselves a nice 6% pay increase as an "at-a-boy" for successfully cutting the budget. Funding should be equally distributed across the board based on indicators such as the area's cost of living, mean income, population, and (yes) educational performance. The administrators should have the ability to grade teachers' performance (as should the students) and evaluate them accordingly. Low job performance comes with penalties in non-education vocations, why not in education as well?
 
2013-06-08 12:55:22 PM  
i52.tinypic.com
 
2013-06-08 12:58:10 PM  

Lsherm: Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.  So we graduate retards.


to be fair, as someone who worked privately in a gentrified public elementary school for nearly my entire 20's, we aren't graduating retards.  The retards are graduating.  Drive-by parenting will always create angry humanoid children.  These angry children present in a myriad of dysfunctional behavioral cries for help.  And the result?  Immature, fresh-out-of-the-classroom teachers develop a PTSD of sorts, and the child gets the same treatment at school as at home.  No one has the time to teach this child that they can be hated if they are selfish.  Hate doesn't wait for a magic age.  If you suck, you suck.  And the beat goes on.

The definition of retarded is more or less "behind expected progress" yes?  So, if you believe in Maslow's hierarchy, or some alternative of the theory, than all neglected children are retarded.

/Potato, Potahto, I know.
 
2013-06-08 01:01:14 PM  

Summer Glau's Love Slave: Lsherm: Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.   So we graduate retards.

Your thesis alone lends tremendous anecdotal weight to your arguments.

/Wait for it...


I see what you did there.

/You are a very evil person, and you should be proud of yourself.
 
2013-06-08 01:02:18 PM  

Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.


It wasn't Bush's leguslation, it was ted kennedy. Bush worked with him, but calling it his is beyond dumb.

Why do liberals constantly try to rewrite history. For farks sake.
 
2013-06-08 01:02:47 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: bismark189: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

Do your history, bud.  Good ole Teddy K. created the bill.  Little Bush just tossed him a bone and signed it.

That said, being a former teacher, NCLB is a load of shiat.

I disagree, NCLB is/was an improvement over the previous system of ignoring the problem.  NCLB set up a system to measure results and required that every student be measured every year.

Objective measurement is going to be a cornerstone of any valid education reform.  If you don't know where you are doing it right and where you are failing, then you have no ability to improve.  NCLB got that much right, and I'll give a big ole fark you to anyone who says we need a more "holistic" approach to measurement.  If it's not an objective measure it's not a measure.  If you feel that there are things not being measured, then find a way to measure them don't throw out the valid measurements.  Attention span, self discipline and ability to ignore distraction are all things that should be and can be measured but are being ignored.  That doesn't mean that we should throw out the metrics that do work.

Public education will never succeed with 100% of children, so on the face of it No Child Left Behind's goal of 100% meeting graduation standards can never be achieved.  On the other hand, the public system should be able to move 100% of all students forward in each year.  They may not reach the ultimate goal, but as long as they are moving forward the system is working.


Measure.

Honestly, 100% of our kids ought to graduate every year.
 
2013-06-08 01:03:21 PM  
Sorry for the double-post, but I really baked my own noodle with my own post.

Are retarded children neglected, or are neglected children retarded?

This might be the beginning of finding the answer to life, people.  We need some case study on this hypothesis!

/I'm what happens when George Carlin and Mr. Rodgers have a love child together.
 
2013-06-08 01:06:38 PM  
If the majority of parents did more than simply send their kids to school every day (if they even do that) and check in at the end of the quarter to see the report card, we'd all be better off.  Start expecting As and Bs out of every kid.  Keep on top of what's happening in the classroom every day, not just at report card time.  Have regular contact with the teachers.  Be aware of what is happening in other classrooms/schools, and if your kid doesn't appear to be getting the benefit of resources and good teaching, ask the administration some tough questions.  You may not be aware of something that explains away your concerns.  Or you may identify defects that must be fixed for the sake of the kids.

Biatching at school board meetings and complaining on blogs often has only limited effect.  Being regularly involved in schooling and with your kids' teachers can make a huge difference.
 
2013-06-08 01:09:22 PM  

Fano: John Dewey: Let's see what happens when we teach teachers to not use tests or curriculum to be the be all and end all.

But but how can we tell if the children is learning without standardized tests?


Clearly you aren't in favor of standardized testing, so why don't you try answering the question: if you don't use standardized testing, what's your metric for determining whether a kid has been educated or not?
 
2013-06-08 01:12:22 PM  

puddleonfire: I used to be a secondary scorer for state competency essays, so I'm getting a kick out of this.
Essays were scanned.
With 10th grade essays, only a small fraction were written in cursive.


As a Early American Historian (Antebellum to be exact) I resoundingly cheer the long overdue death of cursive script. People keep saying that its a dieing art, but I have to say it was never really alive in the first place. Yes, there are some amazing examples of lovely script. There are, however, vastly more examples of near illegible cursive. The complete switch to block script can't happen soon enough.

/yes, I know that some people can't write in block either. There is a significant portion of the population that shouldn't be allowed near a writing utensil.
// I'm old enough to have been given cursive instruction in school and I do almost all my work typed on a computer
///Two guesses which group I'm in.
 
2013-06-08 01:15:34 PM  
When I saw the graphic at the bottom I mistook it for an Onion article...
 
2013-06-08 01:18:21 PM  

jjorsett: Fano: John Dewey: Let's see what happens when we teach teachers to not use tests or curriculum to be the be all and end all.

But but how can we tell if the children is learning without standardized tests?

Clearly you aren't in favor of standardized testing, so why don't you try answering the question: if you don't use standardized testing, what's your metric for determining whether a kid has been educated or not?


C. He knows how to Christmas tree good
 
2013-06-08 01:20:22 PM  

Gulper Eel: RedPhoenix122: If it's a NY Post article, there's nothing impartial about it.

I'll call a waaaaaaaambulance for you.

The NYC education system has a well-earned reputation for poor performance (despite ample funding) and corruption, including cheating on standardized tests, a reputation and a documented history which does not disappear because the evil New York Post wrote about it.

A small sampling of additional citations:

NY Daily News.
Daily Beast.
The Atlantic.
NY Times.


Agreed; as a product of said schools, I can attest to that.  There are very good teachers in the school system; sadly however, the are too many who either are unable or unfit to deal with being a teacher in the system.  The union (because they'd rather have quantity than quality) keeps sticking up for them.

Granted, the teachers are just one part of a larger problem: the board itself.  Now, if Republicans weren't so goddamn reprehensible as a whole, maybe they'd have traction here and help reform the system.

Since the state GOP's not that much different than the RNC as a whole, I wouldn't want them within 10 miles of the school system.  So, unless, there's a reformist movement with the Democratic Party that pretty much declares jihad on the old boy network, we're pretty much stuck with what we have.  Better the devil you do know and all that.
 
2013-06-08 01:23:03 PM  

Lost Thought 00: Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.


Oh yes indeed. Because one of the things parents pay through the nose for is super-stringent marking.

There was a bit of a row a few years back in the UK when it turned out that many thousands of pupils at private schools had been given A grades for school marked assessment components which actually deserved to fail. I am amazed that anyone was surprised by this.
 
2013-06-08 01:23:47 PM  

Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.


You mean the bill co-authored by Ted Kennedy and George Miller?  The one that passed 384-45 in the House and 91-8 in the Senate?  Of the 53 Nay votes, 34 of them came from Republicans, so you can't even claim that the Democrats were the only ones standing against it at all.  Both parties own this bill and bullshiat program.
 
2013-06-08 01:27:17 PM  

SheltemDragon: People keep saying that its a dieing art


*sigh*
 
2013-06-08 01:29:28 PM  
Ya'll must be talking about that "No child left behind" thing created by Bush administration.
(See what I did there?)
 
2013-06-08 01:31:11 PM  
Until we acknowledge that not all students are equal with the same ability to succeed, we'll be stuck with this failed system. Most school districts shut down their vocational and technical programs, which gave the opportunity for students who would not be able to make it to college to learn marketable skills. Now we pretend that with just a little extra teaching and better tests, they will all be little Einsteins.
 
2013-06-08 01:31:39 PM  

ginandbacon: SheltemDragon: People keep saying that its a dieing art

*sigh*


i1125.photobucket.com

/STOP!
//Seizure time.
 
2013-06-08 01:34:35 PM  

OdradekRex: Until we acknowledge that not all students are equal with the same ability to succeed, we'll be stuck with this failed system. Most school districts shut down their vocational and technical programs, which gave the opportunity for students who would not be able to make it to college to learn marketable skills. Now we pretend that with just a little extra teaching and better tests, they will all be little Einsteins.


Your kid is stupid, and probably should aspire to be a welder, at best.
 
2013-06-08 01:43:14 PM  

Satan's Chocolate Starfish: If the majority of parents did more than simply send their kids to school every day (if they even do that) and check in at the end of the quarter to see the report card, we'd all be better off.  Start expecting As and Bs out of every kid.  Keep on top of what's happening in the classroom every day, not just at report card time.  Have regular contact with the teachers.  Be aware of what is happening in other classrooms/schools, and if your kid doesn't appear to be getting the benefit of resources and good teaching, ask the administration some tough questions.  You may not be aware of something that explains away your concerns.  Or you may identify defects that must be fixed for the sake of the kids.

Biatching at school board meetings and complaining on blogs often has only limited effect.  Being regularly involved in schooling and with your kids' teachers can make a huge difference.


butbutbut what about parents' *liberty* to fart out kids and ignore them?
 
2013-06-08 01:43:51 PM  

legion_of_doo: Why test at all?

What we need to do is ignore the situation, never test for anything, pay all the teachers (and especially the school administrators) and then we'll know that the children is learning.

/Because capitalism failed us, and we need to be more like Soviet Russia.

Hitler
/FTFY

1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-06-08 01:48:14 PM  

MNguy: OdradekRex: Until we acknowledge that not all students are equal with the same ability to succeed, we'll be stuck with this failed system. Most school districts shut down their vocational and technical programs, which gave the opportunity for students who would not be able to make it to college to learn marketable skills. Now we pretend that with just a little extra teaching and better tests, they will all be little Einsteins.

Your kid is stupid, and probably should aspire to be a welder, at best.


Or a lumber jack; leaping from tree to tree as they float down the mighty rivers of British Columbia. And he could sing, sing, SING!

/Cannot take this thread seriously.
//Feel as if I'm a musician aboard the Titanic.
 
2013-06-08 01:51:53 PM  

Lsherm: Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.  So we graduate retards.


Congratulations, you just won the Fark most ignorant post of the year award.  Your prize?  Continued ridicule from the rest of us.  You deserve it.
 
2013-06-08 01:52:10 PM  

Lsherm: Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.  So we graduate retards.


We don't just graduate them - we inflate their GPAs to boot.

Median GPA at my high school was a 3.3 as they did everything in their power to keep them as high as possible.  You had to try hard not to get good grades.

// Had a 2.1
 
2013-06-08 01:57:24 PM  
OMG... this thread... what is this, I don't even...
 
2013-06-08 01:58:08 PM  

MNguy: Mr. Eugenides: bismark189: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

Do your history, bud.  Good ole Teddy K. created the bill.  Little Bush just tossed him a bone and signed it.

That said, being a former teacher, NCLB is a load of shiat.

I disagree, NCLB is/was an improvement over the previous system of ignoring the problem.  NCLB set up a system to measure results and required that every student be measured every year.

Objective measurement is going to be a cornerstone of any valid education reform.  If you don't know where you are doing it right and where you are failing, then you have no ability to improve.  NCLB got that much right, and I'll give a big ole fark you to anyone who says we need a more "holistic" approach to measurement.  If it's not an objective measure it's not a measure.  If you feel that there are things not being measured, then find a way to measure them don't throw out the valid measurements.  Attention span, self discipline and ability to ignore distraction are all things that should be and can be measured but are being ignored.  That doesn't mean that we should throw out the metrics that do work.

Public education will never succeed with 100% of children, so on the face of it No Child Left Behind's goal of 100% meeting graduation standards can never be achieved.  On the other hand, the public system should be able to move 100% of all students forward in each year.  They may not reach the ultimate goal, but as long as they are moving forward the system is working.

Measure.

Honestly, 100% of our kids ought to graduate every year.


100% includes some severely developmentally disabled and delayed kids.  Children who are in the bottom 5% are often not capable of meeting graduation requirements (particularly Minnesota's which has some of the highest grad requirements in the nation) in 12 years.  Every child should move forward every year (right now we fail kids at the middle school level where some move backwards) every child who is below the standard should receive extra tutoring and counseling in the areas she's behind.  But forcing kids to meet an arbitrary deadline at age 17/18 is setting things up for institutional failure.
 
2013-06-08 01:59:50 PM  

Guido Libido: OMG... this thread... what is this, I don't even...


It's an internet sensation involving people vomiting their thoughts into a discussion. But that's not important right now.

Ah Airplane 1 and 2. I need to watch them again
 
2013-06-08 02:01:57 PM  
In Living Environment, pilot schools saw their passing rates plummet by an average of 6.7 percentage points last year.

Self-grading schools only dropped by 2 percentage points.


So not even the NEA union goons could cheat enough to disguise the fact that the teachers are getting worse every year. NEA does for education what the UAW does for American car production.
 
2013-06-08 02:03:22 PM  

jjorsett: Fano: John Dewey: Let's see what happens when we teach teachers to not use tests or curriculum to be the be all and end all.

But but how can we tell if the children is learning without standardized tests?

Clearly you aren't in favor of standardized testing, so why don't you try answering the question: if you don't use standardized testing, what's your metric for determining whether a kid has been educated or not?


IMHO, standardized testing should be very challenging and should be used to measure how well schools are doing at developing good students.  Too often it is used primarily to identify under-performing students and schools.  And, sure, that's an important measurement to consider.  But start handing out state aid, at least in large part, on the basis of how many excellent students a school creates, and you'll see change.  If school districts see a good part of their state aid pot of gold tied up in high performance expectations, participation and excellent performance in AP classes,  the opportunity to participate and do well in quality vocational training, high acceptance rates for students in post-secondary academic or vocational programs, etc., maybe the focus won't be so strongly on simply ensuring that students and teachers meet minimum standards.

And, yes, there are all kinds of social and environmental and economic factors in play.  They obviously can't be ignored.  So incentivize the hell out of the situation.  Weight state aid by performance in relation to per capita expenditures.  The better the value a district gives for all the millions taxpayers pour into it, the better its aid allotment.  If well-funded districts routinely under-perform, investigate the hell out of the situation and make changes.  If communities are under-funding districts in comparison to similarly situated communities and their children's educations are suffering, put them under a mandate to adequately fund their schools.  If adequately funded schools still suck, hammer down on the minutiae.  Is it lousy parents who allow chronic absenteeism?  Get on it and fix it.  Will you be able to make it perfect?  Of course not.  But hold parents accountable for basic things like making sure healthy kids are in school every day.

Are other factors in play?  Does your school have a disproportionate number of children from poor families who don't do well?  Get after it.  Don't just blame teachers and administrators.  Identify the social/environmental problems that are affecting classroom performance and work on change every day--permanently.  And if you do have certain teachers who are always at the bottom of the performance chart for no reasonable reason, then make changes there, too.  Bring outside evaluation into the classrooms of weaker teachers.  Work with them to bring their skills up to par.  If it doesn't happen quickly, get rid of them.  Don't let them continue to be the weak point in the children's educations.

And don't let stats dictate decision-making.  Every school should have a group of parents, educators, students, community representatives who evaluate every class in every grade level from a multitude of perspectives.  It's not good enough to just rely on standardized test results and graduation rates.  These outside evaluators should know if certain teachers are carrying an extra burden because of class makeup or a lack of student teachers or inadequate remedial assistance for struggling students.  Teachers should be measured, in part, on how well their students perform at the next grade level.  If it becomes clear that certain teachers are not adequately preparing their kids for success at the next level, then immediate intervention is necessary.  Computer resources and libraries and teaching technology should be constantly evaluated to make sure the school is competitive.

I'm sure many school districts do some of these things, just as I'm sure many school districts do a shiat job.  And the likelihood of holding parents who don't care accountable?  Just about the same as getting powerful teachers unions to stop drawing lines in the sand that they will never cross.
 
2013-06-08 02:04:08 PM  

Lost Thought 00: Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.


Our son has attended private school for six years and we've not seen this behavior.  Instead,
1. A grandfather who bought a gymnasium (yes, a beautiful gym with bleachers and hardwood floors) with his name on it (the kid did not pass the kindergarten entrance exam and thus was not admitted.  There is a 7:1 applicant to admission ratio)
2. Another dad, trying to assure kindergarten access for his oldest, donated $40,000.  (They returned the check).
3. Descendents of a large candy company donate six figures every year (their youngest has contract-mandated summer tutoring so he can keep up with classmates).
4. A private, third-party company in another state grades the exams and compares to other private schools (I've seen their scoring, and they don't know or care how much daddy makes).

Of course, YMMV.
 
2013-06-08 02:05:41 PM  

MNguy: OdradekRex: Until we acknowledge that not all students are equal with the same ability to succeed, we'll be stuck with this failed system. Most school districts shut down their vocational and technical programs, which gave the opportunity for students who would not be able to make it to college to learn marketable skills. Now we pretend that with just a little extra teaching and better tests, they will all be little Einsteins.

Your kid is stupid, and probably should aspire to be a welder, at best.


If my kid was not able to get into college, I'd prefer if he or she had an opportunity to learn a trade they could make a decent living at, rather than be handed a useless diploma.
 
2013-06-08 02:08:02 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: bismark189: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

Do your history, bud.  Good ole Teddy K. created the bill.  Little Bush just tossed him a bone and signed it.

That said, being a former teacher, NCLB is a load of shiat.

I disagree, NCLB is/was an improvement over the previous system of ignoring the problem.  NCLB set up a system to measure results and required that every student be measured every year.

Objective measurement is going to be a cornerstone of any valid education reform.  If you don't know where you are doing it right and where you are failing, then you have no ability to improve.  NCLB got that much right, and I'll give a big ole fark you to anyone who says we need a more "holistic" approach to measurement.  If it's not an objective measure it's not a measure.  If you feel that there are things not being measured, then find a way to measure them don't throw out the valid measurements.  Attention span, self discipline and ability to ignore distraction are all things that should be and can be measured but are being ignored.  That doesn't mean that we should throw out the metrics that do work.

Public education will never succeed with 100% of children, so on the face of it No Child Left Behind's goal of 100% meeting graduation standards can never be achieved.  On the other hand, the public system should be able to move 100% of all students forward in each year.  They may not reach the ultimate goal, but as long as they are moving forward the system is working.


You realize, of course, autistic children were held to the same standard as others in the implementation of NCLB [1] ( though they were allowed more time to take the tests ). NCLB only has merit if we are too lazy as a society to value education. It's telling that teachers in Germany can make more money than lawyers there; they value education and it shows in the strength of their economy.

I personally don't care that it was Kennedy that pushed for this or if his or Bush's heart was in the right place; it was a bad idea and poorly implemented.

1]  https://scholarworks.iu.edu/dspace/handle/2022/195
 
2013-06-08 02:09:02 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: Median GPA at my high school was a 3.3 as they did everything in their power to keep them as high as possible.  You had to try hard not to get good grades.

// Had a 2.1


I can one-up this.  My high school used a 5-point scale and gave free extra points for AP courses and half that amount of extra points for normal classes (called "advanced"), you only got your actual grade if you were in a remedial ("normal") level course.

I graduated with a 5.2 or so, without anyone seeming to realize that pulling this kind of shiat means that your students' GPAs might as well be written in ancient Egyptian.  Admissions officers just look at your course list and AP test scores, and maybe class rank, we've rendered grades meaningless for college admissions.  Which makes all this fighting over them kinda funny.
 
2013-06-08 02:18:12 PM  

albatros183: doglover: Lost Thought 00: Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.

That's an unfair comparison.

Private schools offer teachers MUCH better compensation and let them decide how to teach as opposed to telling them. Also kids who go to private schools, even boarding schools, tend to have parents who are at least try to instill in their kids the value of education.

I love kids in private schools and cashin' them private school paychecks. You get the best classes in the world when the kids know why they're there and they're not just being warehoused for 6 hours a day against their will.

Perhaps US private schools are different but I suspect you've never met anyone that went to a private school


Private schools in the US are what you call public schools. But they cost an awful lot.
 
2013-06-08 02:19:35 PM  

Pincy: Lsherm: Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.  So we graduate retards.

Congratulations, you just won the Fark most ignorant post of the year award.  Your prize?  Continued ridicule from the rest of us.  You deserve it.


The United States spends more per student than any other country.  Students in the United States are ranked near the bottom of the industrialized countries.

We put enough money into it, how it is spent is the problem. Reform the spending.
 
2013-06-08 02:21:35 PM  
My school's results were *worse* for the work they graded themselves. Yes, in my country you take two exams. My school prided itself on the fact that they were tougher on their students than the central exam people were.
 
2013-06-08 02:28:27 PM  

Orgasmatron138: Can't speak for New York, but teachers overall have diminishing authority in their own classrooms.  School districts are so paranoid about lawsuits that teachers are completely handcuffed when it comes to disciplining children, teaching curriculum, and getting authorities involved in the home lives of at-risk kids.

But by all means, let's keep blaming the teachers for kids being dumber every year.


Omg THIS!!! A million times THIS! Thank you.
 
2013-06-08 02:29:55 PM  

Schmegicky: legion_of_doo: Why test at all?

What we need to do is ignore the situation, never test for anything, pay all the teachers (and especially the school administrators) and then we'll know that the children is learning.

/Because capitalism failed us, and we need to be more like Soviet Russia.
Hitler
/FTFY

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 720x560]


Are you pimping that photo as a German classroom? Not with the palms trees. circa early 60s??
 
2013-06-08 02:32:37 PM  

pianomom: Orgasmatron138: Can't speak for New York, but teachers overall have diminishing authority in their own classrooms.  School districts are so paranoid about lawsuits that teachers are completely handcuffed when it comes to disciplining children, teaching curriculum, and getting authorities involved in the home lives of at-risk kids.

But by all means, let's keep blaming the teachers for kids being dumber every year.

Omg THIS!!! A million times THIS! Thank you.


Do they still have the "rubber rooms" in the NYC school system? I guess what I'm asking is: can incompetent teachers be fired?
 
2013-06-08 02:33:44 PM  

puddleonfire: I used to be a secondary scorer for state competency essays, so I'm getting a kick out of this.
Essays were scanned.
With 10th grade essays, only a small fraction were written in cursive.


1) I would live to be able to scan the numerous essays I grade each year but I fear that would completely negate the human aspect of being able to actually read the words on the paper and respond to and decipher the intent and meaning of it.

2) Why does it matter if they were written in cursive or not?
 
2013-06-08 02:35:57 PM  

lenfromak: Lost Thought 00: Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.

A private school would not be in business for long if it did not produce results. That's how the real world operates.


And those results are measured four years later when the school proudly publishes where the 8th graders from 2009, for example, are going to college in 2013.  The school has no other marketing material.  (the most recent list shows a "low-end" school as University of Michigan, Ann Arbor).

/The difference is NOT teachers IMHO it's parental influences of genes, money, expectations and involvement.
 
2013-06-08 02:43:39 PM  

uber humper: pianomom: Orgasmatron138: Can't speak for New York, but teachers overall have diminishing authority in their own classrooms.  School districts are so paranoid about lawsuits that teachers are completely handcuffed when it comes to disciplining children, teaching curriculum, and getting authorities involved in the home lives of at-risk kids.

But by all means, let's keep blaming the teachers for kids being dumber every year.

Omg THIS!!! A million times THIS! Thank you.

Do they still have the "rubber rooms" in the NYC school system? I guess what I'm asking is: can incompetent teachers be fired?


Idk about rubber rooms and NY, but Ohio is implementing a new electronic teacher evaluation system next year. According to the extremely limited amount of information that has been released, an incompetent teacher can be let go after three years of continuously "failing" their review. What sucks the most is that 50% of our evaluation is based on the outcome of the students' End of Course exam. Our brilliant administration thought it would be amazing to announce this little tidbit of information to the high school student body. You should have seen the utter shock on the teachers' faces and sheer joy on the students' faces. Dumba$$es!!
 
2013-06-08 02:52:31 PM  

pianomom: uber humper: pianomom: Orgasmatron138: Can't speak for New York, but teachers overall have diminishing authority in their own classrooms.  School districts are so paranoid about lawsuits that teachers are completely handcuffed when it comes to disciplining children, teaching curriculum, and getting authorities involved in the home lives of at-risk kids.

But by all means, let's keep blaming the teachers for kids being dumber every year.

Omg THIS!!! A million times THIS! Thank you.

Do they still have the "rubber rooms" in the NYC school system? I guess what I'm asking is: can incompetent teachers be fired?

Idk about rubber rooms and NY, but Ohio is implementing a new electronic teacher evaluation system next year. According to the extremely limited amount of information that has been released, an incompetent teacher can be let go after three years of continuously "failing" their review. What sucks the most is that 50% of our evaluation is based on the outcome of the students' End of Course exam. Our brilliant administration thought it would be amazing to announce this little tidbit of information to the high school student body. You should have seen the utter shock on the teachers' faces and sheer joy on the students' faces. Dumba$$es!!


Trying to understand your point and outrage.  If a teacher, who is in control of at least 50% of his/her evaluation performance, fails for three years in a row, they may be dismissed?  This also assumes the teacher has zero percent control over the student exam outcome.

Do I have that right, or is your outrage that it was announced to staff and students simultaneously?  Perhaps the students were joyful because they could get a teacher fired by failing an exam?
 
2013-06-08 02:52:36 PM  

Lsherm: Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.  So we graduate retards.


You really, really have serious mental problems. I've noticed that reality just simply isn't getting through to you at all. When your parents finally die, you'll be in an institution.
 
2013-06-08 02:54:50 PM  
I'd like to see how well private schools would measure up if they were compelled to accept bad students.  Just because you cherry pick the best kids from the public schools does not mean you're achieving great things when those top students you recruited *gasp* do well in school.

The real measurement is how private school grad stack up against public school grads in college.  My experience, with just a few exceptions, was that top students from our public schools did just as well as top students from our private schools.  It really comes down to student and parent motivation rather than exclusivity.
 
2013-06-08 02:56:14 PM  

pianomom: Idk about rubber rooms and NY, but Ohio is implementing a new electronic teacher evaluation system next year. According to the extremely limited amount of information that has been released, an incompetent teacher can be let go after three years of continuously "failing" their review. What sucks the most is that 50% of our evaluation is based on the outcome of the students' End of Course exam. Our brilliant administration thought it would be amazing to announce this little tidbit of information to the high school student body. You should have seen the utter shock on the teachers' faces and sheer joy on the students' faces. Dumba$$es!!


Tough questions.  But it's a multi-front battle. The problems are systemic. And no, it's not just about money.  The US already spends the most per student.

Most teachers are conservative (not in the political Republican sense) but in the sense they resist change.  There needs to be a systemic change.

The current idea of schools in universities is an outdated industrial age paradigm. We no longer need schools and universities to pump out a uniform product that march into the workforce to work in a standardized job position. Employees with repetitive tasks will soon be obsolete.  Creatives are what we need.  Workers will be replaced with robots or algorithms.

So, I agree with you.  Standardized tests are bullshiat.  The answer is more complex than this forum here.
 
2013-06-08 02:57:52 PM  
pianomom:
According to the extremely limited amount of information that has been released, an incompetent teacher can be let go after three years of continuously "failing" their review. What sucks the most is that 50% of our evaluation is based on the outcome of the students' End of Course exam. Our brilliant administration thought it would be amazing to announce this little tidbit of information to the high school student body. You should have seen the utter shock on the teachers' faces and sheer joy on the students' faces. Dumba$$es!!

That makes absolutely no sense at all.  You're asking us to believe that an entire student body was gleeful over the opportunity to ruin a teacher's evaluation  by failing their exams?  That is simply ludicrous and it didn't happen.
 
2013-06-08 03:12:19 PM  
I didn't think teachers could grade their own students anyway. Though inter-school grading seems like a logical step to curb bias. I remember I took my first Math regents in middle school (accelerated program). I did pretty well on it (high 90s) but my Math teacher came to me in tears to apologize to me. She said "I tried to get it changed, but they wouldn't let me". It turns out I had used π≈3.14 and my grader didn't accept approximations as legitimate math, so I lost credit.
 
2013-06-08 03:28:27 PM  

Jim_Callahan: I can one-up this. My high school used a 5-point scale and gave free extra points for AP courses and half that amount of extra points for normal classes (called "advanced"), you only got your actual grade if you were in a remedial ("normal") level course.


My high school used a similar system, except we used raw numbers out of 100.  No remedial classes, though.  So, AP and honors classes had 4 points tacked on, "normal" classes didn't.

Passing was 75, and "honors points" couldn't save you from failing.  So, a 72 raw average in an honors class meant you were going to summer school.

Pretty much every year, the valedictorian's average was over 100, and went to Harvard.

/catholic school
 
2013-06-08 03:55:47 PM  

puddleonfire: I used to be a secondary scorer for state competency essays, so I'm getting a kick out of this.
Essays were scanned.
With 10th grade essays, only a small fraction were written in cursive.


Nowadays cursive is something you learn in third grade and stop using in fifth.

...until you get an ancient teacher in high school who can't believe no one's using cursive and tries to remedy the deficit single-handedly by requiring it in her class. She had to be a closet masochist to want to suffer through essays in reluctantly resurrected copybook cursive.

What's the point of cursive in an age where we type all our longest texts?
 
2013-06-08 03:59:32 PM  

uber humper: Pincy: Lsherm: Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.  So we graduate retards.

Congratulations, you just won the Fark most ignorant post of the year award.  Your prize?  Continued ridicule from the rest of us.  You deserve it.

The United States spends more per student than any other country.  Students in the United States are ranked near the bottom of the industrialized countries.

We put enough money into it, how it is spent is the problem. Reform the spending.


You know that is because the us educates special needs students while other counties don't.

Most of the money on the us goes towards special needs, learning disabilities, and neighborhood where education isn't valued.

The us tries to educate everyone. Other counties fucus their attention on those that are easy to educate and leaves the hard to educate uneducated.
 
2013-06-08 04:07:43 PM  
coyo: You realize, of course, autistic children were held to the same standard as others in the implementation of NCLB [1] ( though they were allowed more time to take the tests ). NCLB only has merit if we are too lazy as a society to value education. It's telling that teachers in Germany can make more money than lawyers there; they value education and it shows in the strength of their economy.

I personally don't care that it was Kennedy that pushed for this or if his or Bush's heart was in the right place; it was a bad idea and poorly implemented.

1]https://scholarworks.iu.edu/dspace/handle/2022/195


Bullshait.  If you're going to say something, look it up, just for a second on Google (rates adjusted to US Dollars):

2010 or latest available yearPrimary educationLower secondary educationUpper secondary educationSalarySalaryYears to top
salarySalaryInitial15 yearsMaximumInitial15 yearsMaximumInitial15 yearsMaximum
Germany46 45655 77161 20951 05861 78468 5922853 96366 89576 433  Upper secondary Ed, at the max level possible, pays $76,433.  I couldn't find a nifty table for attorney salaries, but, for Germany according to LLCinfo.com, German lawyers average $113,000 a year.
 
2013-06-08 04:09:05 PM  

shtychkn: You know that is because the us educates special needs students while other counties don't.

Most of the money on the us goes towards special needs, learning disabilities, and neighborhood where education isn't valued.

The us tries to educate everyone. Other counties fucus their attention on those that are easy to educate and leaves the hard to educate uneducated.


That's true? I've never heard that. So, across Europe, Australia, S. Korea, Japan, Canada, and so on -- these countries do not have compulsory education for everyone, yet their literacy rates are as high as they are?

I'm calling you out.  That's bullshiat.
 
2013-06-08 04:09:25 PM  
Well, that looked a hell of a lot better before.  Need to preview.  Point being, max you can earn as a teacher in Germany is USD 76,433.  Average for a lawyer is USD 113,000.  Coyo is full of shait.
 
2013-06-08 04:13:01 PM  

devildog123: Well, that looked a hell of a lot better before.  Need to preview.  Point being, max you can earn as a teacher in Germany is USD 76,433.  Average for a lawyer is USD 113,000.  Coyo is full of shait.


I'm starting to think they stopped teaching research and the scientific method in schools.
 
2013-06-08 04:29:45 PM  

SheltemDragon: puddleonfire: I used to be a secondary scorer for state competency essays, so I'm getting a kick out of this.
Essays were scanned.
With 10th grade essays, only a small fraction were written in cursive.

As a Early American Historian (Antebellum to be exact) I resoundingly cheer the long overdue death of cursive script. People keep saying that its a dieing art, but I have to say it was never really alive in the first place. Yes, there are some amazing examples of lovely script. There are, however, vastly more examples of near illegible cursive. The complete switch to block script can't happen soon enough.

/yes, I know that some people can't write in block either. There is a significant portion of the population that shouldn't be allowed near a writing utensil.
// I'm old enough to have been given cursive instruction in school and I do almost all my work typed on a computer
///Two guesses which group I'm in.


I also cheer this.

I was taught cursive writing starting in third grade. The point which was hammered was that cursive was how the high schools would mandate you write, as that's the way things are "in the real world".

Nothing is further from the truth. What rules in the real world is legibility and clarity, not appearance.

I'm a physician. I was taught block-type script from my father, who worked as a surveyor and draftsman for a number of years. My block script is simple, clear, and easy to read. I don't know how many times I've called other physicians for clarification of their notes, as their cursive is simply impossible to read. Just because it's faster doesn't make it better, especially when lives can be at stake.

I've been re-teaching myself cursive as an art form- my eventual goal is Spencerian script, which you'd recognize as the Coca-Cola font. I appreciate it as an art form, but it simply isn't practical as a daily writing technique. 

As for the central topic of the article, I think there is a baseline that the school needs to have as a facility- a roof that doesn't leak, power that stays on, that sort of thing- but aside from that, the facility doesn't do much. It's probably 95% the student, teacher and parents, 5% facility. If the student is motivated, the parents are invested and the teacher isn't just counting the days to retirement, the student can succeed. If the parents don't care, the student doesn't want to learn and the teacher is just a babysitter, then the student will fail even with the best possible facility.
 
2013-06-08 04:32:10 PM  

uber humper: There needs to be a systemic change.


I don't disagree, but the system that needs changing is not just education.  It needs to include health care, economy, etc.  Our country really needs to take a long hard look in the mirror and decide how these seeming silos can actually help each other.  That's why that TED Talk i linked to is a great example.  It addresses many of the issues on a micro level this country refuses to address on a macro level.
 
2013-06-08 04:33:52 PM  

jjorsett: Fano: John Dewey: Let's see what happens when we teach teachers to not use tests or curriculum to be the be all and end all.

But but how can we tell if the children is learning without standardized tests?

Clearly you aren't in favor of standardized testing, so why don't you try answering the question: if you don't use standardized testing, what's your metric for determining whether a kid has been educated or not?


Ask the  Finnish:

There are no mandated standardized tests in Finland, apart from one exam at the end of students' senior year in high school. There are no rankings, no comparisons or competition between students, schools or regions. Finland's schools are publicly funded.

Educators had little idea it was so successful until 2000, when the first results from the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), a standardized test given to 15-year-olds in more than 40 global venues, revealed Finnish youth to be the best young readers in the world.
 
2013-06-08 04:38:03 PM  

Ilmarinen: There are no rankings, no comparisons or competition between students, schools or regions. Finland's schools are publicly funded.

Educators had little idea it was so successful until 2000


So....instead of focusing on being the best, they focused on being the best they could be....novel idea.

Also, I'm pretty sure Finland didn't just look at fixing schools, they looked at how the systems interacted and could benefit each other.

Further, they don't accept failure in teachers.  If a teacher isn't any good, they work very hard to make them good.  Professional development is a central part of the success of their schools.
 
2013-06-08 04:44:39 PM  

John Dewey: uber humper: There needs to be a systemic change.

I don't disagree, but the system that needs changing is not just education.  It needs to include health care, economy, etc.  Our country really needs to take a long hard look in the mirror and decide how these seeming silos can actually help each other.  That's why that TED Talk i linked to is a great example.  It addresses many of the issues on a micro level this country refuses to address on a macro level.


That's why we need creatives. It's gonna take a lot of brainpower to fix these problems. Things are changing super fast, it's just a few years until most people become obsolete.

I can't change the country myself. But I can change myself and my family. --If everyone swept under front porch, the whole world would be clean (or how ever it goes).

With the free tools on the Internet, you can learn anything you need. We start by educating ourselves. Then we can destroy and rebuild the institutions. We can't wait for institutions to rebuild first.
 
2013-06-08 04:49:27 PM  

uber humper: shtychkn: You know that is because the us educates special needs students while other counties don't.

Most of the money on the us goes towards special needs, learning disabilities, and neighborhood where education isn't valued.

The us tries to educate everyone. Other counties fucus their attention on those that are easy to educate and leaves the hard to educate uneducated.

That's true? I've never heard that. So, across Europe, Australia, S. Korea, Japan, Canada, and so on -- these countries do not have compulsory education for everyone, yet their literacy rates are as high as they are?

I'm calling you out.  That's bullshiat.


I'm not saying that those countries don't have Compulsory Elementary Level Education.  An education that teaches reading/writing and basic "life skills"

However, the populations I mentioned above, are tracked and not given an education that would prepare them for for college/university.

Other countries are not attempting to teach special education students Algebra II, Trig., Chemistry, etc.  As the United States does.
 
2013-06-08 04:52:10 PM  

shtychkn: I'm not saying that those countries don't have Compulsory Elementary Level Education.  An education that teaches reading/writing and basic "life skills"

However, the populations I mentioned above, are tracked and not given an education that would prepare them for for college/university.

Other countries are not attempting to teach special education students Algebra II, Trig., Chemistry, etc.  As the United States does.


I'm also skeptical of what you'er saying, but couldn't care less.  To me the point isn't where we rank. The point is are we actually doing what's best for kid in the classroom?
 
2013-06-08 04:53:40 PM  

Summer Glau's Love Slave: ginandbacon: SheltemDragon: People keep saying that its a dieing art

*sigh*

[i1125.photobucket.com image 251x251]

/STOP!
//Seizure time.


Meh. I regularly read things from a period where grammar and spelling are a full contact sport. I worry not about a misplaced '
 
2013-06-08 04:53:56 PM  

shtychkn: Other countries are not attempting to teach special education students Algebra II, Trig., Chemistry, etc.  As the United States does.


I'm also curious what your definition of sped is.  I believe that a great many of students identified as sped might not need to be if they'd received proper nutrition and medical care in utero and the rest of their childhood.  Again, we're not going to "fix our schools" by just trying to fix our schools.
 
2013-06-08 04:54:32 PM  

shtychkn: Other countries are not attempting to teach special education students Algebra II, Trig., Chemistry, etc. As the United States does.


What's the definition of a special ed student? If he can do Trig or Chemistry, I doubt he has a severe enough mental handicap to be considered special education qualified.  In alot of schools Trig and Algebra II are reserved for honors students (I guess that is a form of special education).

So, more Aspie than Downs?
 
2013-06-08 04:57:10 PM  

John Dewey: shtychkn: I'm not saying that those countries don't have Compulsory Elementary Level Education.  An education that teaches reading/writing and basic "life skills"

However, the populations I mentioned above, are tracked and not given an education that would prepare them for for college/university.

Other countries are not attempting to teach special education students Algebra II, Trig., Chemistry, etc.  As the United States does.

I'm also skeptical of what you'er saying, but couldn't care less.  To me the point isn't where we rank. The point is are we actually doing what's best for kid in the classroom?


Which kid in the classroom? 

The average student?  The student that needs special services? The student who doesn't care about his/her education and treats school like a prison sentence?
 
2013-06-08 04:58:50 PM  

Lost Thought 00: Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.


Having taught in both low performing public, and high performing private schools, i can say this doesn't happen.

The principals are friends with the parents, so when you give little Pat a B, you get fired.  No money needs to change hands.  Just complain.
 
2013-06-08 04:58:52 PM  

uber humper: shtychkn: Other countries are not attempting to teach special education students Algebra II, Trig., Chemistry, etc. As the United States does.

What's the definition of a special ed student? If he can do Trig or Chemistry, I doubt he has a severe enough mental handicap to be considered special education qualified.  In alot of schools Trig and Algebra II are reserved for honors students (I guess that is a form of special education).

So, more Aspie than Downs?


In the US both would be taught it.
 
2013-06-08 05:00:28 PM  

John Dewey: I'm also skeptical of what you'er saying, but couldn't care less. To me the point isn't where we rank. The point is are we actually doing what's best for kid in the classroom?


What does their ranking metric indicate, how well they will work in a factory-like environment? Individualism, people.  That's the answer.
 
2013-06-08 05:02:48 PM  

Ilmarinen: jjorsett: Fano: John Dewey: Let's see what happens when we teach teachers to not use tests or curriculum to be the be all and end all.

But but how can we tell if the children is learning without standardized tests?

Clearly you aren't in favor of standardized testing, so why don't you try answering the question: if you don't use standardized testing, what's your metric for determining whether a kid has been educated or not?

Ask the  Finnish:

There are no mandated standardized tests in Finland, apart from one exam at the end of students' senior year in high school. There are no rankings, no comparisons or competition between students, schools or regions. Finland's schools are publicly funded.

Educators had little idea it was so successful until 2000, when the first results from the Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA), a standardized test given to 15-year-olds in more than 40 global venues, revealed Finnish youth to be the best young readers in the world.


You make it sound like Sweden has a single test they administer on graduation.  Not true.  Tests on different subjects are administered throughout a students career and are meant to serve as a common measuring stick.  See below......Actually sounds similar to what we have here.

From some Swedish website

http://www.sverigeturism.se/smorgasbord/smorgasbord/society/educatio n/ compulsory.html
"The new marking system is to be objective and achievement-related instead of relative. It will be geared to special achievement criteria which are to be devised in conjunction with the syllabi so as to make it clear to teachers and pupils which achievements are necessary for the award of a certain mark. Final awards will be on a three-point scale: Pass, Pass with distinction and Pass with exceptional distinction.

Comparability will be achieved by means of national tests. Diagnostic tests in reading, writing and arithmetic should be administered in all municipal schools at the end of the second year. All municipal schools are also to administer subject tests in Swedish, English and mathematics at the end of the fifth and ninth years. Swedish tests are also to be administered at independent schools. All pupils will receive a leaving certificate."
 
2013-06-08 05:04:20 PM  

shtychkn: Which kid in the classroom?

The average student?  The student that needs special services? The student who doesn't care about his/her education and treats school like a prison sentence?


Yes.
 
2013-06-08 05:04:35 PM  

shtychkn: The student who doesn't care about his/her education and treats school like a prison sentence?


That's what it is. They took the fun out of learning.  There are quite a few adults out there who have never cracked a book since school.  A diploma is a destination.
 
2013-06-08 05:09:29 PM  

John Dewey: shtychkn: Which kid in the classroom?

The average student?  The student that needs special services? The student who doesn't care about his/her education and treats school like a prison sentence?

Yes.


Unfortunately, you can't have it all.  You have a limited pool of resources.  When you pull from that pool to assist one group, you take away from other groups.

IF you want to "Fix" the US Education system, you have to define the goal of the US education system.

Right now that goal is to prepare student for college.  Most of the rest of the world already knows that not every child will go on to college/university, nor should they.  The world needs tradesmen.

Putting every student into a Chemistry or Algebra II is a waste of time for those students that wont utilize it and lowers the level of education for students that will utilized it.

Everyone looses when you try to educate everyone the same.
 
2013-06-08 05:11:00 PM  

uber humper: What does their ranking metric indicate, how well they will work in a factory-like environment? Individualism, people.  That's the answer.


You can get test questions with high reliability and validity. Psycometricians make a lot of money for a reason.

I think the key is, as you've alluded to, getting kids to learn how to learn.  That is one of the reasons our species has come to "dominate" the planet - we love to learn. And yet schools and teachers (and I have been guilty of this) seem to enter with the assumption that students/kids don't want to learn.  So they instead blame the kid or the parent instead of looking inward at the system/classroom/curriculum they've designed.  Our society bows before the gods of coverage and the spiral curriculum.  And it is costing us greatly.
 
2013-06-08 05:12:08 PM  

Satan's Chocolate Starfish: If the majority of parents did more than simply send their kids to school every day (if they even do that) and check in at the end of the quarter to see the report card, we'd all be better off.  Start expecting As and Bs out of every kid.  Keep on top of what's happening in the classroom every day, not just at report card time.  Have regular contact with the teachers.  Be aware of what is happening in other classrooms/schools, and if your kid doesn't appear to be getting the benefit of resources and good teaching, ask the administration some tough questions.  You may not be aware of something that explains away your concerns.  Or you may identify defects that must be fixed for the sake of the kids.

Biatching at school board meetings and complaining on blogs often has only limited effect.  Being regularly involved in schooling and with your kids' teachers can make a huge difference.


Education, the one interaction with government where you will never see a black helicopter.
 
2013-06-08 05:12:54 PM  

shtychkn: Everyone looses when you try to educate everyone the same.


I wasn't proposing educating everyone the same.

shtychkn: Unfortunately, you can't have it all.


Why not?  All I want is every kid to be given the chance to learn what they want to learn how they want to learn it with a guide at the side who is knowledgeable about learning and creating and sustaining functional learning spaces.

Is that too much to ask?
 
2013-06-08 05:13:51 PM  
It is extremely embarrassing how many teachers seem to go out of their way to make sure any reportable numbers are inflated. There is no school or state that is immune to this.

puddleonfire: I used to be a secondary scorer for state competency essays, so I'm getting a kick out of this.
Essays were scanned.
With 10th grade essays, only a small fraction were written in cursive.


As a teacher, let me just say, F cursive. Students should be allowed to use word processors on state writing exams.
 
2013-06-08 05:16:57 PM  

John Dewey: shtychkn: Everyone looses when you try to educate everyone the same.

I wasn't proposing educating everyone the same.



Our current system does however.  Everyone has the same requirements to graduate from High School. We do not recognize that some students need an education to prepare them for College, and other need an education to prepare them for a trade.


shtychkn: Unfortunately, you can't have it all.

Why not?  All I want is every kid to be given the chance to learn what they want to learn how they want to learn it with a guide at the side who is knowledgeable about learning and creating and sustaining functional learning spaces.

Is that too much to ask?


Unfortunately, yes.  That requires vast amount of resources and internal motivation on behalf of the learner.
 
2013-06-08 05:17:29 PM  
Pumpernickel bread:

There are no mandated standardized tests in Finland


You make it sound like Sweden has a single test they administer on graduation.


I make what now?
 
2013-06-08 05:18:32 PM  

PapaChester: It is extremely embarrassing how many teachers seem to go out of their way to make sure any reportable numbers are inflated. There is no school or state that is immune to this.

puddleonfire: I used to be a secondary scorer for state competency essays, so I'm getting a kick out of this.
Essays were scanned.
With 10th grade essays, only a small fraction were written in cursive.

As a teacher, let me just say, F cursive. Students should be allowed to use word processors on state writing exams.



That isn't just teachers.  People in every profession attempt to "boost" their stats.
 
2013-06-08 05:18:39 PM  

John Dewey: Ilmarinen: There are no rankings, no comparisons or competition between students, schools or regions. Finland's schools are publicly funded.

Educators had little idea it was so successful until 2000

So....instead of focusing on being the best, they focused on being the best they could be....novel idea.

Also, I'm pretty sure Finland didn't just look at fixing schools, they looked at how the systems interacted and could benefit each other.

Further, they don't accept failure in teachers.  If a teacher isn't any good, they work very hard to make them good.  Professional development is a central part of the success of their schools.


In other words, they respect their educators and do more than just try to "fix" things by throwing money at them.
 
2013-06-08 05:20:06 PM  

shtychkn: We do not recognize that some students need an education to prepare them for College, and other need an education to prepare them for a trade.


This sounds dangerously close to tracking.  I'm not saying that's what your'e proposing, but I agree that there needs to be choice in amount of education that is guided primarily by the student, not the school.  And plenty of options later for continuing education in case the choice was an incorrect one.

shtychkn: Unfortunately, yes.  That requires vast amount of resources and internal motivation on behalf of the learner.


Humans want to learn.  We just need to get out of their way and/or help them.  Instead, we tell them what to learn, when to learn it and how.

Imagine if we taught walking and talking to toddlers the way we teach reading and math in schools.
 
2013-06-08 05:31:01 PM  

John Dewey: shtychkn: We do not recognize that some students need an education to prepare them for College, and other need an education to prepare them for a trade.

This sounds dangerously close to tracking.  I'm not saying that's what your'e proposing, but I agree that there needs to be choice in amount of education that is guided primarily by the student, not the school.  And plenty of options later for continuing education in case the choice was an incorrect one.


IT is tracking - and it is what most other countries do.  Now, maybe a compromise would be to allow students to CHOOSE which track they wanted. But hold the student responsible to the standards of whichever track they have chosen.


shtychkn: Unfortunately, yes.  That requires vast amount of resources and internal motivation on behalf of the learner.

Humans want to learn.  We just need to get out of their way and/or help them.  Instead, we tell them what to learn, when to learn it and how.

Imagine if we taught walking and talking to toddlers the way we teach reading and math in schools.


I disagree that humans "want" to learn. Or at least "learn" needs to be better defined.

Do humans want to learn enough to function in society?  Sure.

Does everyone want to learn beyond that?  No.  Their are willing ignorant people out there.  After high school is over, their is nothing stopping people from learning whatever they want in their own way.
 
2013-06-08 05:34:11 PM  

shtychkn: John Dewey: shtychkn: Which kid in the classroom?

The average student?  The student that needs special services? The student who doesn't care about his/her education and treats school like a prison sentence?

Yes.

Unfortunately, you can't have it all.  You have a limited pool of resources.  When you pull from that pool to assist one group, you take away from other groups.

IF you want to "Fix" the US Education system, you have to define the goal of the US education system.

Right now that goal is to prepare student for college.  Most of the rest of the world already knows that not every child will go on to college/university, nor should they.  The world needs tradesmen.

Putting every student into a Chemistry or Algebra II is a waste of time for those students that wont utilize it and lowers the level of education for students that will utilized it.

Everyone looses when you try to educate everyone the same.


The trick is not that not that the American education system treats every child as equal, its that it attempts to treat every child as *potentially* equal. You can't start fast tracking students into the trades without starting to practice discrimination because the vast majority of students don't know what the heck they want to be when they hit college, let alone graduate from HS.

If we are to give students a maximum chance to pursue Life, Liberty, and Happiness, then the only sensible course is to try to teach them *how* to learn and then expose them to a wild variety of subjects to see what they take a fancy to and/or sticks. Yes, this includes trade classes as well as advanced science, mathmatics, and the arts.

Consistently cutting budgets so the only things we have money for are the machine equivalent of subjects (Math, Basic Writing, and Trivia style History) produces students who are god awful at deciding what they want to do with life and who have to waste the first two years of college being actually given the tools  think critically. It makes me angry that even after a whole semester of stressing the point, working with them to learn critical reasoning and how to avoid both personal and author bias when evaluating historical material that I *still* get students who think the "learn the answer and get an A" applies. I don't care if you can memorize the exact date, I don't care if your spell and grammar is impeccable, that is what the world has books and the internet for. I care about the "how." How is this information important. How did you arrive at your conclusions. How well did you document the evidence you are using and answer contradictory positions.

But they struggle to give it to me because all their educational life, up to college, they have been taught "Learn this and get an A, anything else is wasted effort."

/end rant
 
2013-06-08 05:35:15 PM  

Satan's Chocolate Starfish: pianomom:
According to the extremely limited amount of information that has been released, an incompetent teacher can be let go after three years of continuously "failing" their review. What sucks the most is that 50% of our evaluation is based on the outcome of the students' End of Course exam. Our brilliant administration thought it would be amazing to announce this little tidbit of information to the high school student body. You should have seen the utter shock on the teachers' faces and sheer joy on the students' faces. Dumba$$es!!

That makes absolutely no sense at all.  You're asking us to believe that an entire student body was gleeful over the opportunity to ruin a teacher's evaluation  by failing their exams?  That is simply ludicrous and it didn't happen.


No. In my district, the students take a Common Formative Assessment at the beginning of the year, the middle, and the end of the year. The students' performance on this test is not counted for their grade, it is not an exam, nor is it used for a final test. These assessments are purely for teacher evaluation...and the teachers and students know this. The students can intentionally botch the exam, it won't matter to them. A poor performance on this assessment just means that the teacher will get a lower APPR grade, and can then be lead through some improvement program and could be fired. If the students respect the teacher, they will try to perform for the teacher. If not, then the teacher is screwed. The students know this. In my large district, I had students performing at a higher level than most other schools, so I appreciate that the scores showed that they respected me. I know some great math teachers at some very good schools that had their students tank the assessment. That sucks for them.

Also, the knucklehead that commented on grading by rubrics and some lame brained robotic association. The rubric gives values of 0-2, or 0-3 depending on the question, and the rubric doesn't easily identify that someone knows next to nothing from someone who made a rounding error, or did some of the work in their head without showing every detail. The rubrics for each question are in this odd state of flux...with the intended focus of a question being unknown to the student, and its scoring for that unknown being very different from question to question. Rubrics should have a larger scale, say 0-5 or 0-10.
 
2013-06-08 05:35:37 PM  
Are these standardized tests? How the fark do you "grade them differently"? It's god damn A, B, C, or D!
 
2013-06-08 05:38:37 PM  

shtychkn: Does everyone want to learn beyond that?  No.  Their are willing ignorant people out there.


I think this may be a chicken/egg thing.

The view of learning in our schools is reflected in our society and vice versa.  There are many things that go along with that, like if you're smart you can learn, if you're not you don't.  We don't value academic struggle. Another is that learning happens in a linear progression (first you learn this, then that, but not that because you need to know this first...).

If we change how learning is viewed in schools will it change society?  That's my hope, but I am generally speaking an optimist.  I'd be curious to hear how the Finnish view learning once school is over.  Again, it's our fixation on schools that that's what these articles focus on as opposed to the whole picture.
 
2013-06-08 05:44:01 PM  

shtychkn: IT is tracking - and it is what most other countries do.  Now, maybe a compromise would be to allow students to CHOOSE which track they wanted. But hold the student responsible to the standards of whichever track they have chosen.


Sorry, forgot about this part.  I think the issue of student responsibility becomes less important the more choice they have.  You are more likely to perform well for a track you choose.  If I know I want to be a music teacher and I'm bombing music theory, the blame shouldn't automatically go on me.  Not should it rest wholly with the school/teacher.  Both parties need to examine what's going on and come to a mutually agreed solution and be willing to revisit it as new data comes in.
 
2013-06-08 05:44:24 PM  

John Dewey: shtychkn: Does everyone want to learn beyond that?  No.  Their are willing ignorant people out there.

I think this may be a chicken/egg thing.

The view of learning in our schools is reflected in our society and vice versa.  There are many things that go along with that, like if you're smart you can learn, if you're not you don't.  We don't value academic struggle. Another is that learning happens in a linear progression (first you learn this, then that, but not that because you need to know this first...).

If we change how learning is viewed in schools will it change society?  That's my hope, but I am generally speaking an optimist.  I'd be curious to hear how the Finnish view learning once school is over.  Again, it's our fixation on schools that that's what these articles focus on as opposed to the whole picture.



Not sure.  The view/value that a society puts on an education certainly changes the desire to be educated in the population.

But even in Finland, some people work at a fast food restaurant or gas station and they are content with that.
 
2013-06-08 05:46:05 PM  

John Dewey: shtychkn: IT is tracking - and it is what most other countries do.  Now, maybe a compromise would be to allow students to CHOOSE which track they wanted. But hold the student responsible to the standards of whichever track they have chosen.

Sorry, forgot about this part.  I think the issue of student responsibility becomes less important the more choice they have.  You are more likely to perform well for a track you choose.  If I know I want to be a music teacher and I'm bombing music theory, the blame shouldn't automatically go on me.  Not should it rest wholly with the school/teacher.  Both parties need to examine what's going on and come to a mutually agreed solution and be willing to revisit it as new data comes in.


Agreed.
 
2013-06-08 06:38:26 PM  

rkiller1: pianomom: uber humper: pianomom: Orgasmatron138: Can't speak for New York, but teachers overall have diminishing authority in their own classrooms.  School districts are so paranoid about lawsuits that teachers are completely handcuffed when it comes to disciplining children, teaching curriculum, and getting authorities involved in the home lives of at-risk kids.

But by all means, let's keep blaming the teachers for kids being dumber every year.

Omg THIS!!! A million times THIS! Thank you.

Do they still have the "rubber rooms" in the NYC school system? I guess what I'm asking is: can incompetent teachers be fired?

Idk about rubber rooms and NY, but Ohio is implementing a new electronic teacher evaluation system next year. According to the extremely limited amount of information that has been released, an incompetent teacher can be let go after three years of continuously "failing" their review. What sucks the most is that 50% of our evaluation is based on the outcome of the students' End of Course exam. Our brilliant administration thought it would be amazing to announce this little tidbit of information to the high school student body. You should have seen the utter shock on the teachers' faces and sheer joy on the students' faces. Dumba$$es!!

Trying to understand your point and outrage.  If a teacher, who is in control of at least 50% of his/her evaluation performance, fails for three years in a row, they may be dismissed?  This also assumes the teacher has zero percent control over the student exam outcome.

Do I have that right, or is your outrage that it was announced to staff and students simultaneously?  Perhaps the students were joyful because they could get a teacher fired by failing an exam?


My outrage is twofold: 1) that it was announced to students (at all) during an awards assembly and 2) I have zero control over whether or not a student will actually try his best on the exam or fail on purpose because he/she does not like a particular teacher.

I put everything I have and everything I am into my students first, and my lessons and materials. I have a passion for what I do and most importantly for my students. However, I cannot make them care which was made evident this past school year when 98% of my students refused to even take an End of Course test booklet and instead randomly colored in the little bubbles because again, they were told in an assembly that the administration was making the teachers drop the students' lowest test score for the last nine weeks. By the time that test came around at the very end of he school year, my students already knew what their grade was going to be not only for that nine weeks but also for the year. Why should they have tried at that point? It wasn't going to matter. Obviously my biggest complaint is my bulding's administration.

On a much higher note, I was able to get my students to pass the two state graduation tests that I am responsible for with over 90% accuracy on both tests. So there's that.
 
2013-06-08 06:44:14 PM  

rik_everglade: I know some great math teachers at some very good schools that had their students tank the assessment. That sucks for them.


I've got 3 kids--7, 16, and 19.  They've all gone through numerous standardized tests that did not count toward their grades.  They were simply for assessment.  In all the years they've been in school, I have never heard a whisper of any kid in our school system purposely tanking on a state assessment exam with the intent of hurting a teacher's evaluation.  Not a single one.  I am highly aware of what goes on in our school district, and I can assure you that there is a 100% chance that if there was ever a collective effort by students to tank assessment exams, everyone in the district would know about it within days of the exam.  There wouldn't even be a necessity to wait for the test results.  Christ, I'll bet that if even one kid was discovered to have purposely tanked an assessment to hurt a teacher, the whole community would learn about it.

I have no idea what type of school district you teach in, but that shiat would never fly where I live.
 
2013-06-08 06:49:02 PM  

Satan's Chocolate Starfish: pianomom:
According to the extremely limited amount of information that has been released, an incompetent teacher can be let go after three years of continuously "failing" their review. What sucks the most is that 50% of our evaluation is based on the outcome of the students' End of Course exam. Our brilliant administration thought it would be amazing to announce this little tidbit of information to the high school student body. You should have seen the utter shock on the teachers' faces and sheer joy on the students' faces. Dumba$$es!!

That makes absolutely no sense at all.  You're asking us to believe that an entire student body was gleeful over the opportunity to ruin a teacher's evaluation  by failing their exams?  That is simply ludicrous and it didn't happen.


Were you there? Were you sitting in the second section, left side with the student body as your principal stood at the podium at the end of an awards assembly when he opened his dumbass mouth and said the words, "...next year, your end of course exams will be even more important as your results will account for 50% of your teacher's evaluations?" May I say it again, it DID happen. I heard it myself. And like I said in another post of mine, I'm all for accountability but I absolutely cannot make a student care!
 
2013-06-08 07:09:18 PM  
I googled and apparently Choir Academy is going to be closed.

"But opponents of the closure say the sixth- to 12th-grade school's problems can be partially pinned on the DOE. There have been 10 different permanent and interim principals in 12 years, almost 20 percent of its students are classified for special education and key staff, including an English Language Arts teacher, are missing, defenders said. "

Set them up to fail and they will.

"In addition to phasing out Choir Academy, the DOE plans to bring in a new district high school and co-locate a K-4 Democracy Prep Charter School in the building. Choir Academy already shares the building with Promise Academy II [also a charter school, BTW] and an alternative high school."

Yeah, that'll help.
 
2013-06-08 07:33:06 PM  

Satan's Chocolate Starfish: rik_everglade: I know some great math teachers at some very good schools that had their students tank the assessment. That sucks for them.

I've got 3 kids--7, 16, and 19.  They've all gone through numerous standardized tests that did not count toward their grades.  They were simply for assessment.  In all the years they've been in school, I have never heard a whisper of any kid in our school system purposely tanking on a state assessment exam with the intent of hurting a teacher's evaluation.  Not a single one.  I am highly aware of what goes on in our school district, and I can assure you that there is a 100% chance that if there was ever a collective effort by students to tank assessment exams, everyone in the district would know about it within days of the exam.  There wouldn't even be a necessity to wait for the test results.  Christ, I'll bet that if even one kid was discovered to have purposely tanked an assessment to hurt a teacher, the whole community would learn about it.

I have no idea what type of school district you teach in, but that shiat would never fly where I live.


Well...you see, you are wrong because you inserted your word into my true statement, which then would be false! I never said that they tanked a state assessment. I was very clear that it was a Common Formative Assessment, given three times a year. Students do tank this. And by the way, students do refuse the state test as well. There is a box on the front of the scan form for just that situation. So there! What? You think that never happens in your school, right. You just don't know it. How could you? You don't grade those tests, just the constructed response part. What a laugh.
 
2013-06-08 07:37:43 PM  

Satan's Chocolate Starfish: But start handing out state aid, at least in large part, on the basis of how many excellent students a school creates, and you'll see change.


And make sure you only give medical treatment to healthy people while you're at it.
 
2013-06-08 07:41:20 PM  

JWideman: Private schools in the US are what you call public schools. But they cost an awful lot.


Public schools in the UK are a small subset of private schools. What the US calls public schools we call state schools.
 
2013-06-08 07:48:42 PM  

devildog123: You mean the bill co-authored by Ted Kennedy and George Miller? The one that passed 384-45 in the House and 91-8 in the Senate? Of the 53 Nay votes, 34 of them came from Republicans, so you can't even claim that the Democrats were the only ones standing against it at all. Both parties own this bill and bullshiat program.


It's a shame how it's not that long ago but it's been completely forgotten. Same with the TSA.
 
2013-06-08 07:50:59 PM  

pianomom: I put everything I have and everything I am into my students first, and my lessons and materials. I have a passion for what I do and most importantly for my students. However, I cannot make them care which was made evident this past school year when 98% of my students refused to even take an End of Course test booklet and instead randomly colored in the little bubbles because again, they were told in an assembly that the administration was making the teachers drop the students' lowest test score for the last nine weeks. By the time that test came around at the very end of he school year, my students already knew what their grade was going to be not only for that nine weeks but also for the year. Why should they have tried at that point? It wasn't going to matter.


So why are you upset about it? Why did you want your pupils to take a test which you knew was utterly unimportant to them? It sounds as if you got upset because a trick you were playing on your students was exposed.
 
2013-06-08 08:02:43 PM  

Mrbogey: devildog123: You mean the bill co-authored by Ted Kennedy and George Miller? The one that passed 384-45 in the House and 91-8 in the Senate? Of the 53 Nay votes, 34 of them came from Republicans, so you can't even claim that the Democrats were the only ones standing against it at all. Both parties own this bill and bullshiat program.

It's a shame how it's not that long ago but it's been completely forgotten. Same with the TSA.


Its because individual congressmen don't have the Public Opinion power of the President.   The President was the one using the power of the bully pulpit to pass NCLB.
 
2013-06-08 08:14:27 PM  

orbister: pianomom: I put everything I have and everything I am into my students first, and my lessons and materials. I have a passion for what I do and most importantly for my students. However, I cannot make them care which was made evident this past school year when 98% of my students refused to even take an End of Course test booklet and instead randomly colored in the little bubbles because again, they were told in an assembly that the administration was making the teachers drop the students' lowest test score for the last nine weeks. By the time that test came around at the very end of he school year, my students already knew what their grade was going to be not only for that nine weeks but also for the year. Why should they have tried at that point? It wasn't going to matter.

So why are you upset about it? Why did you want your pupils to take a test which you knew was utterly unimportant to them? It sounds as if you got upset because a trick you were playing on your students was exposed.


What the hell are you saying? I do not have a say...ANY say at ALL...as to whether or not by students will take a STATE MANDATED test that the STATE has determined the results of which will determine 50% of my evaluation! If I had my way they wouldn't take it at all. What trick? What trick was I playing here?

Again, they passed the two tests that I am responsible for with the highest percentages EVER in the history of my school. You know, the test that determines whether THEY graduate or not. The other test they take that has no PERSONAL reflection on them but rather is a direct reflection on MY performance is the one they don't care about.

Go on...I'll wait....
 
2013-06-08 09:23:02 PM  

pianomom: orbister: pianomom: I put everything I have and everything I am into my students first, and my lessons and materials. I have a passion for what I do and most importantly for my students. However, I cannot make them care which was made evident this past school year when 98% of my students refused to even take an End of Course test booklet and instead randomly colored in the little bubbles because again, they were told in an assembly that the administration was making the teachers drop the students' lowest test score for the last nine weeks. By the time that test came around at the very end of he school year, my students already knew what their grade was going to be not only for that nine weeks but also for the year. Why should they have tried at that point? It wasn't going to matter.


So why are you upset about it? Why did you want your pupils to take a test which you knew was utterly unimportant to them? It sounds as if you got upset because a trick you were playing on your students was exposed.

What the hell are you saying? I do not have a say...ANY say at ALL...as to whether or not by students will take a STATE MANDATED test that the STATE has determined the results of which will determine 50% of my evaluation! If I had my way they wouldn't take it at all. What trick? What trick was I playing here?


Again, they passed the two tests that I am responsible for with the highest percentages EVER in the history of my school. You know, the test that determines whether THEY graduate or not. The other test they take that has no PERSONAL reflection on them but rather is a direct reflection on MY performance is the one they don't care about.

Go on...I'll wait....

termos.vemod.net
 
2013-06-08 09:32:15 PM  

OscarTamerz: So not even the NEA union goons could cheat enough to disguise the fact that the teachers are getting worse every year. NEA does for education what the UAW does for American car production.


You're an idiot who does not know how unions operate. You are obvious employed in a non-union environment and suffer jealousy every day because you don't have (wait for it) a guarantee to due process before termination. THAT (and collective bargaining) is what a union is there for. As for the UAW... it might have taken them some time to see the light, but ask Ford or GM what their relationship with UAW is now. UAW was clobbered with enough lay-offs they realized they had to work with the car company or risk going away all together.

SuperNinjaToad: Bush's fault. I do really blame him....NCLB took what was already a systemic problem into new heights by basically saying it's now government sanctioned and POTUS himself wants you to cheat so it's ok ... go ahead and cheat and the dumbing down of America continues.


So... after 5 years of the current POTUS it's STILL Bush's fault? No... it's GOVERNMENT'S fault. Legislators who haven't been in a classroom in 50 years, and whose children attend elite private schools where the worst in-class behavior is farting and gum chewing wrote the bill. And (even though a group of educators I was part of in summer 2008 was told by...) Ray LaHood said NCLB was essentially done after 2008... He was wrong. Bush was wrong. Obama is wrong.


I can tell by reading this thread who gets it, and who's an utter tool with either jealousy issues or brainwashing issues. The jealousy issues are due to the decline of unions in this country through persecution and piss-poor legislation, as well as carefully crafted dissension in the middle class - crafted by the upper class. Brainwashing comes from the media, generally hijacked by special interests who have a stake in seeing the public education system go down the tubes - generally not Conservative versus Liberal, but Charter School industry and test-writing/data industry (owned by certain magnates - Gates, Murdoch, et al) versus public schools.

I just returned home from a pro-education rally in Albany, so I'm a little fired up about this, right now. I also have some specific information that can help.

1 - Some of the Regents Exams (English & Math) are written by private industry and often prove to have problems (like questions not covered by the curriculum, among others).

2 - A certain (high) percentage of the difference recorded in this article is students who earned a 63 or 64 and the school goosed them a point or 2 because they passed the rest of the year. When the tests are scored by people who don't care, then of course the number is what the number is and screw the kid who tried like hell, but has trouble with multiple choice tests (black kids, among others...) but passed the rest of the year.

3 - Another percentage of the difference was addressed in the article - administrators cheating the numbers. It happens.

4 - While there are a (small) percentage of teachers who are burned out, saying we're in it for the money or the vacation days and trying to deride our work ethic shows a tremendous level of ignorance about the work teachers do. Sure, I have July and August off from having to report to school and stand in front of a classroom. But, I use that time to plan for next year, attend professional development, and emotionally recover from the previous year. Vacation weeks during the school year are generally spent getting caught up on grading, planning for several weeks in advance, and spending time getting caught up on paperwork. Any teacher who somehow gets by on working solely the hours the students are in the building is not going to be respected by his/her colleagues and certainly will not be doing a good job for his/her students. Many is the night I have stayed after school 1-3 hours just getting the room organized and preparing for the day(s) ahead. Many more are the nights I've graded for 3 hours, or planned for hours on end.

If you can put in the hours we do for the pay we get under the conditions we work, apply for the job. And don't even give me the old canard "you chose the profession." That's BS and you know it. The profession has come under more and more attacks and assaults during my 15+ years as an educator. It's a hard job, it's a job with great psychological stresses AND rewards. And it's a job that need not be undervalued by people who couldn't teach a room of 30 14-year-olds if their lives depended on it.
 
2013-06-08 09:32:31 PM  

orbister: Satan's Chocolate Starfish: But start handing out state aid, at least in large part, on the basis of how many excellent students a school creates, and you'll see change.

And make sure you only give medical treatment to healthy people while you're at it.


Don't bother reading anything I wrote about the various social and economic factors that affect student outcomes.
 
2013-06-09 12:22:08 AM  
Schools,  in a lot or respects,  are a baby sitting service.   Why do you think it is compulsory? If many students were not forced to go to school for years this would be the outcome.  Students becoming problems in wider society as they would have nothing to do except cause problems by hanging around bored and then getting into trouble.  Many parents being unable to work and thus not contributing to the economics of society through the taxes that they give.   By making schools compulsory you free the parents from unpaid parenting duties to being able to participate in paid duties that in turn give the tax coffers more money.  You have children being watched and thus for many but not all refraining from engaging in activities that cause problems.

Schools and to be fair teachers can only teach children so much, given the numbers in classes and the range of abilities.  In most cases they teach to the middle and if you, as a parent,  wish for your child to achieve more then you need to put that time in yourself.  This can be through home tutoring or through added exercises after school.
 
2013-06-09 12:39:34 AM  

Satan's Chocolate Starfish: If the majority of parents did more than simply send their kids to school every day (if they even do that) and check in at the end of the quarter to see the report card, we'd all be better off.  Start expecting As and Bs out of every kid.  Keep on top of what's happening in the classroom every day, not just at report card time.  Have regular contact with the teachers.  Be aware of what is happening in other classrooms/schools, and if your kid doesn't appear to be getting the benefit of resources and good teaching, ask the administration some tough questions.  You may not be aware of something that explains away your concerns.  Or you may identify defects that must be fixed for the sake of the kids.

Biatching at school board meetings and complaining on blogs often has only limited effect.  Being regularly involved in schooling and with your kids' teachers can make a huge difference.


I do that.   When I get home from work and pick my daughter up from after school care the first thing she does is have a snack and then it is straight into going over the basics of reading, writing and arithmetic.    I make the extra work fun and we do spend most of the time laughing and twisting the work into completely off putting and silly situations.   However,  when the class gives her tests she has been going very well and I would be disappointed if she did not get 100%,    Let me put it this way;  we went out shopping and they had a table setup for children to colour in plaster figurines.   She finished and the lady at the stall was able to re-use every single one of the paint tubs. Not one tub of paint  had one bit of colour from another tub.  She is 5.

In my opinion schools are a useful and free baby sitting service,  but when it comes to her education the fact remains that I am the one educating my daughter.
 
2013-06-09 12:54:25 AM  

shtychkn: John Dewey: shtychkn: We do not recognize that some students need an education to prepare them for College, and other need an education to prepare them for a trade.

This sounds dangerously close to tracking.  I'm not saying that's what your'e proposing, but I agree that there needs to be choice in amount of education that is guided primarily by the student, not the school.  And plenty of options later for continuing education in case the choice was an incorrect one.

IT is tracking - and it is what most other countries do.  Now, maybe a compromise would be to allow students to CHOOSE which track they wanted. But hold the student responsible to the standards of whichever track they have chosen.


shtychkn: Unfortunately, yes.  That requires vast amount of resources and internal motivation on behalf of the learner.

Humans want to learn.  We just need to get out of their way and/or help them.  Instead, we tell them what to learn, when to learn it and how.

Imagine if we taught walking and talking to toddlers the way we teach reading and math in schools.

I disagree that humans "want" to learn. Or at least "learn" needs to be better defined.

Do humans want to learn enough to function in society?  Sure.

Does everyone want to learn beyond that?  No.  Their are willing ignorant people out there.  After high school is over, their is nothing stopping people from learning whatever they want in their own way.


I disagree with that.  I think most humans,  especially children, want to learn when it is easy.   When they reach a subject or part of a subject that is  challenging they stop wanting to learn.    This is when a good parent will keep kicking them ,  metaphorically, in the arse until they get past that stage.  Once they have mastered the difficult material they will once again wish to learn because it is once again easy.

Humans are lazy and children are especially lazy.
 
2013-06-09 01:18:01 AM  

Guest: Satan's Chocolate Starfish: If the majority of parents did more than simply send their kids to school every day (if they even do that) and check in at the end of the quarter to see the report card, we'd all be better off.  Start expecting As and Bs out of every kid.  Keep on top of what's happening in the classroom every day, not just at report card time.  Have regular contact with the teachers.  Be aware of what is happening in other classrooms/schools, and if your kid doesn't appear to be getting the benefit of resources and good teaching, ask the administration some tough questions.  You may not be aware of something that explains away your concerns.  Or you may identify defects that must be fixed for the sake of the kids.

Biatching at school board meetings and complaining on blogs often has only limited effect.  Being regularly involved in schooling and with your kids' teachers can make a huge difference.

I do that.   When I get home from work and pick my daughter up from after school care the first thing she does is have a snack and then it is straight into going over the basics of reading, writing and arithmetic.    I make the extra work fun and we do spend most of the time laughing and twisting the work into completely off putting and silly situations.   However,  when the class gives her tests she has been going very well and I would be disappointed if she did not get 100%,    Let me put it this way;  we went out shopping and they had a table setup for children to colour in plaster figurines.   She finished and the lady at the stall was able to re-use every single one of the paint tubs. Not one tub of paint  had one bit of colour from another tub.  She is 5.

In my opinion schools are a useful and free baby sitting service,  but when it comes to her education the fact remains that I am the one educating my daughter.


That's a good approach you have there. By the time my youngest graduates, my kids will have been in our schools for 22 years straight. My aunt taught for 43 years, and my two brothers both teach. I try to be very aware of education policy issues because the big picture does matter, but ultimately my most important job is to make sure my kids are well educated, and that means I have to be in the mix in the classrooms. I'm not a helicopter parent--I try very hard to never interfere with good teachers and my kids have to fight their own battles. But I do make sure that the kids are putting forth their best efforts and I have regular communication with teachers (at least through middle school--it's harder to keep track of everyone in high school). I have found that if kids are accustomed to high expectations before they get to high school, they'll carry those standards through to graduation without much pushing from me. The key for me is addressing homework, test results, behavior, and athletics every day from grade school until graduation. You just can't leave it all to teachers.
 
2013-06-09 03:42:22 AM  

pianomom: What the hell are you saying? I do not have a say...ANY say at ALL...as to whether or not by students will take a STATE MANDATED test that the STATE has determined the results of which will determine 50% of my evaluation! If I had my way they wouldn't take it at all. What trick? What trick was I playing here?


It seems that you wanted them to think the final test mattered for their overall score when in fact it didn't: it only mattered for your evaluation, then got all bad tempered when they found out that for them, it was irrelevant and acted accordingly.

Maybe try being honest with the next lot, eh?
 
2013-06-09 03:44:59 AM  

Satan's Chocolate Starfish: orbister: Satan's Chocolate Starfish: But start handing out state aid, at least in large part, on the basis of how many excellent students a school creates, and you'll see change.

And make sure you only give medical treatment to healthy people while you're at it.

Don't bother reading anything I wrote about the various social and economic factors that affect student outcomes.


I did, and jolly interesting it was, too. But the basic principal (not yours, politicians') of taking funding away from poorly performing schools is about as sensible as cutting police numbers until crime rates drop.
 
2013-06-09 06:33:47 AM  

Yugoboy: I just returned home from a pro-education rally in Albany


And it was a rally against the tests. Okay, fair enough far as that goes.

Why no rally against the cheating? It is a longstanding part of the culture in the NYC school system, dating back to well before the existence of the tests you're complaining about, and yet all we New Yorkers get in response from the educrats and union bosses is blame-shifting and a reflexive defense of failure. And if anybody has the state legislature in the palm of its hand, it's the teachers.

Starting in 2006, under federal law, the State of New York was required to test students in grades three through eight annually in math and English. The results of those tests would enable us, for the first time, to analyze year-to-year student progress and tie it to individual teacher performance-a metric known in the field as "teacher value-added." In essence, you hold constant other factors-where the students start from the prior year, demographics, class size, teacher length of service, and so on-and, based on test results, seek to isolate the individual teacher's contribution to a student's progress. Some teachers, for example, move their class forward on average a quarter-year more than expected; others, a quarter-year less. Value-added isn't a perfect metric, but it's surely worth considering as part of an overall teacher evaluation.

After we developed data from this metric, we decided to factor them into the granting of tenure, an award that is made after three years and that provides virtual lifetime job security. Under state law at the time, we were free to use these data. But after the New York City teachers union, the United Federation of Teachers, objected, I proposed that the City use value-added numbers only for the top and bottom 20 percent of teachers: the top 20 percent would get positive credit; the bottom would lose credit. And even then, principals would take value-added data into account only as part of a much larger, comprehensive tenure review. Even with these limitations, the UFT said "No way," and headed to Albany to set up a legislative roadblock.

Seemingly overnight, a budget amendment barring the use of test data in tenure decisions materialized in the heavily Democratic State Assembly. Joe Bruno, then the Republican majority leader in the State Senate, assured me that this amendment would not pass: he controlled the majority and would make sure that it remained united in opposition. Fast-forward a few weeks: the next call I got from Senator Bruno was to say, apologetically, that several of his Republican colleagues had caved to the teachers union, which had threatened reprisals in the next election if they didn't get on board.

As a result, even when making a lifetime tenure commitment, under New York law you could not consider a teacher's impact on student learning. That Kafkaesque outcome demonstrates precisely the way the system is run: for the adults. The school system doesn't want to change, because it serves the needs of the adult stakeholders quite well, both politically and financially.



So don't worry, Shelly Silver and Dean Skelos will roll over for you soon enough. And so will Cuomo.

Meanwhile, nobody wants to say 'boo' about parents who aren't getting it done. I don't want to hear some shiat about b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-but-they're-so-busy and can't meet with teachers or even take a phone call. Everybody's busy.

While there are a (small) percentage of teachers who are burned out, saying we're in it for the money or the vacation days and trying to deride our work ethic shows a tremendous level of ignorance about the work teachers do.

Teachers aren't special snowflakes. Every profession has a (un)healthy number of people who mail it in.

I'd be eager to hear your defense of a system that can only fire 6 teachers out of 55,000 for incompetence.
 
2013-06-09 07:22:31 AM  

orbister: JWideman: Private schools in the US are what you call public schools. But they cost an awful lot.

Public schools in the UK are a small subset of private schools. What the US calls public schools we call state schools.


Ah, I see. I only know about this US/UK public school thing because I had a new classmate from the UK who complained that we weren't in a public school at all. We made fun of him for dressing like a teacher and not knowing what a public school was. We were 9 or 10.
 
2013-06-09 07:14:30 PM  
uber humper: Are you pimping that photo as a German classroom? Not with the palms trees. circa early 60s??

I'm guessing that it was taken somewhere near Sochi.  Late 50s or early 60s.
 
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