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(NYPost)   Let's see what happens in New York City schools when students get their tests graded by an impartial outside evaluator instead of teachers with a vested interest in socially promoting the little sociopaths to be somebody else's problem   (nypost.com) divider line 183
    More: Fail, New York City, mitigating factors  
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19158 clicks; posted to Main » on 08 Jun 2013 at 11:38 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-08 08:27:42 AM
If it's a NY Post article, there's nothing impartial about it.
 
2013-06-08 08:59:56 AM

RedPhoenix122: If it's a NY Post article, there's nothing impartial about it.


I'll call a waaaaaaaambulance for you.

The NYC education system has a well-earned reputation for poor performance (despite ample funding) and corruption, including cheating on standardized tests, a reputation and a documented history which does not disappear because the evil New York Post wrote about it.

A small sampling of additional citations:

NY Daily News.
Daily Beast.
The Atlantic.
NY Times.
 
2013-06-08 09:01:15 AM
Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.
 
2013-06-08 09:21:19 AM

Lost Thought 00: Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.


That's an unfair comparison.

Private schools offer teachers MUCH better compensation and let them decide how to teach as opposed to telling them. Also kids who go to private schools, even boarding schools, tend to have parents who are at least try to instill in their kids the value of education.

I love kids in private schools and cashin' them private school paychecks. You get the best classes in the world when the kids know why they're there and they're not just being warehoused for 6 hours a day against their will.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-06-08 09:46:13 AM
You could fix the incentives by making schools grade on a curve. No, all those little angels are not brighter than average.

I worked for a megacorporation that expected employees to be graded on a curve during annual performance reviews. Only a few could be above average. A few percent were expected to receive unsatisfactory grades.  In theory a division full of superstars* would be treated badly by the policy. In practice you don't find hundreds of perfect workers together.

Then you'd have to find another way to see how badly the school sucks. A prisoner exchange program would be informative. Send all the kids from Weston** to Roxbury schools, and vice versa, for a few days. Let the teachers render an opinion on the foreign students. Give them a few tests.

* The term "rock stars" came and went a few years ago to describe good software developers (as opposed to tempermental people who are hard to work with, which is what rock stars really are).

** Weston is a suburb of ultra-rich, white xenophobes. Roxbury is one of the poor, dark-skinned parts of Boston.
 
2013-06-08 09:55:41 AM

doglover: Private schools offer teachers MUCH better compensation


Not so much.

"In 2007-08, the average annual base salary of regular full-time public school teachers ($49,600) was higher than the average annual base salary of regular full-time private school teachers ($36,300)."
 
2013-06-08 10:05:56 AM
Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.  So we graduate retards.
 
2013-06-08 10:07:30 AM

Gulper Eel: doglover: Private schools offer teachers MUCH better compensation

Not so much.

"In 2007-08, the average annual base salary of regular full-time public school teachers ($49,600) was higher than the average annual base salary of regular full-time private school teachers ($36,300)."


Yeah they make much less, have worse benefits, and if they work for a religious school, they can't get unemployment if they get laid off.

The only thing that the cost of education indicates is that the school system is in an area with a high cost of living and that a lot of the students come from homes with a lower level of educational attainment or that the district is educating many children with developmental issues and/or children of immigrants.
 
2013-06-08 10:26:08 AM

ginandbacon: The only thing that the cost of education indicates is that the school system is in an area with a high cost of living and that a lot of the students come from homes with a lower level of educational attainment or that the district is educating many children with developmental issues and/or children of immigrants.


THIS.

It is a pain in the ass to get numbers broken down by what the district is paying per standard pupil, what they're paying per special-ed pupil, and what they're paying per child from hyperlitigious family that knows education law cold. Districts where administrators don't have their shiat together will occasionally go so far as to settle with a litigious family in exchange for the family using the settlement money to move out of the district, so that they can go be bothersome asshats somewhere else.
 
2013-06-08 11:02:47 AM
 
2013-06-08 11:45:25 AM
images1.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2013-06-08 11:46:02 AM

John Dewey: Let's see what happens when we teach teachers to not use tests or curriculum to be the be all and end all.


But but how can we tell if the children is learning without standardized tests?
 
2013-06-08 11:47:41 AM
Go Teacher Unions!
 
2013-06-08 11:47:49 AM
1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.
 
2013-06-08 11:48:00 AM

doglover: Lost Thought 00: Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.

That's an unfair comparison.

Private schools offer teachers MUCH better compensation and let them decide how to teach as opposed to telling them. Also kids who go to private schools, even boarding schools, tend to have parents who are at least try to instill in their kids the value of education.

I love kids in private schools and cashin' them private school paychecks. You get the best classes in the world when the kids know why they're there and they're not just being warehoused for 6 hours a day against their will.


Uhh...none of that is true in WI. Unless you are not counting religious schools as private schools
 
2013-06-08 11:48:26 AM
Freakanomics at work.
 
2013-06-08 11:49:51 AM
"No child left behind" so who cares?  Why even bother with tests anymore?  Just stick the kid in a room for 8 hours a day with a Spirograph & 12 years later throw an ugly cap on him and send him on his merry way...
 
2013-06-08 11:51:24 AM
1.7% drop in math is almost inconsequential. Fire all the Living Environment teachers and replace them with retired engineers.
 
2013-06-08 11:54:05 AM

Fano: John Dewey: Let's see what happens when we teach teachers to not use tests or curriculum to be the be all and end all.

But but how can we tell if the children is learning without standardized tests?


Why test at all?

What we need to do is ignore the situation, never test for anything, pay all the teachers (and especially the school administrators) and then we'll know that the children is learning.

/Because capitalism failed us, and we need to be more like Soviet Russia.
 
2013-06-08 11:54:42 AM

Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.


Do your history, bud.  Good ole Teddy K. created the bill.  Little Bush just tossed him a bone and signed it.

That said, being a former teacher, NCLB is a load of shiat.
 
2013-06-08 11:55:54 AM
why wasnt this an obvious tag? sure, they "failed", but this story is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OBVIOUS
 
2013-06-08 11:57:09 AM

doglover: Lost Thought 00: Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.

That's an unfair comparison.

Private schools offer teachers MUCH better compensation and let them decide how to teach as opposed to telling them. Also kids who go to private schools, even boarding schools, tend to have parents who are at least try to instill in their kids the value of education.

I love kids in private schools and cashin' them private school paychecks. You get the best classes in the world when the kids know why they're there and they're not just being warehoused for 6 hours a day against their will.


I'll grant your other points, but I've heard the opposite for a lot of private schools...their faculty may get living on-campus, but get crap pay, even factoring that in.

/not saying they're bad schools, just saying...
 
2013-06-08 11:57:51 AM

Lsherm: Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.   So we graduate retards.


Your thesis alone lends tremendous anecdotal weight to your arguments.

/Wait for it...
 
2013-06-08 11:58:09 AM

MJMaloney187: 1.7% drop in math is almost inconsequential. Fire all the Living Environment teachers and replace them with retired engineers.


WTF is "Living Environment"? Biology? Earth science? Sounds like some Gaia-infused hippie bullcrap.
/Then again, "Earth science" isn't much better. Should've gone with "a buch of stuff that's outside."
 
2013-06-08 11:58:18 AM

Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.


So...Bush's fault?
again
 
2013-06-08 11:59:29 AM

Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.



Except that cheating among NYC school administrators and teachers has been commonplace both before and after NCLB - the bill that was initially sponsored in Congress by that noted GOP jesusbot flame-breathing racist monster Ted Kennedy.
 
2013-06-08 12:00:31 PM
Ah, the Regents exam, I grew up in NY and had to take those awful things - I could never understand why a "standardized" test like that could have essay questions - there is no way to standardize the grading, as the grading of an essay question is highly subjective.

/Had a number of teachers in my school that used to spend the last 2-3 months of the year basically teaching to the exam to make sure they passed
//I Tutored one high school girl who could not point to the Atlantic Ocean on an unlabeled map of the world
 
2013-06-08 12:00:53 PM
They are cheating kids out of an education by inflating scores while giving the students a false sense of accomplishment and confidence.
 
2013-06-08 12:01:24 PM

bismark189: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

Do your history, bud.  Good ole Teddy K. created the bill.  Little Bush just tossed him a bone and signed it.

That said, being a former teacher, NCLB is a load of shiat.


NCLB was Texas policy long before it was nation-wide.  Bush jr had a hard-on for it as it'd been seen as a success(look at all those high test scores!).  He pushed it 'hard' once he got into the WH.

But yes, NCLB is an enormous pile of shiat.
 
2013-06-08 12:02:22 PM
Subbys headline took on a weird meaning when I read it as Ovulator instead of evaluator
 
2013-06-08 12:02:36 PM

Lost Thought 00: Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.


A private school would not be in business for long if it did not produce results. That's how the real world operates.
 
2013-06-08 12:02:37 PM

studs up: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

So...Bush's fault?
again


I was merely commenting on the GOP rag raging about a failed GOP policy.
 
2013-06-08 12:04:56 PM

doglover: Lost Thought 00: Wonder what would happen if you did the same to all the private schools where rich daddy slips the teacher a few extra bills to make sure little Pat never feels the sting of failure.

That's an unfair comparison.

Private schools offer teachers MUCH better compensation and let them decide how to teach as opposed to telling them. Also kids who go to private schools, even boarding schools, tend to have parents who are at least try to instill in their kids the value of education.

I love kids in private schools and cashin' them private school paychecks. You get the best classes in the world when the kids know why they're there and they're not just being warehoused for 6 hours a day against their will.


Perhaps US private schools are different but I suspect you've never met anyone that went to a private school
 
2013-06-08 12:05:54 PM
"In US History, schools whose exams were graded centrally saw their passing rates drop by an average of 3.9 percentage points from 2011 to 2012.

"By contrast, schools that graded their own exams boosted their passing rates by an average of 2.4 percentage points."

That's not good but it's not nearly as bad as that article is trying to imply. And that's their worst example.
 
2013-06-08 12:06:13 PM
Any education for lazy urbanites other than toilet scrubbing training is slave reparation wealth redistribution. Union public school teachers are the most evil threat this blessed nation has ever faced. Why yes, I do read the NYP, how did you know?
 
2013-06-08 12:07:04 PM

Infernalist: studs up: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

So...Bush's fault?
again

I was merely commenting on the GOP rag raging about a failed GOP Bipartisan policy.


Fixed that for you...
 
2013-06-08 12:07:09 PM

Lsherm: Public school employees do not care about teaching kids.  If a public school employee tells you they do, that just means they are new.  After a few years it's all about the paycheck, and that's it.  Teachers, administrators, support staff - by year five they are there for one reason only:  payday.  And that's one of the problems, we have an educational system focused solely on compensation that isn't tied to any real measure of student performance.  So we graduate retards.


I'm sure hordes of highly qualified teachers will begin submitting their applications if test scores determine pay!
 
2013-06-08 12:07:20 PM
Who cares?  Standardized tests are bullshiat.

/Came from the state that pretty much created them (Texas).  Did fine on all of them.
/Had horrible uninspiring teachers for the most part dedicated to getting me to pass said stupid tests.
/Got to pretty rigorous university program and found inspiring teachers but struggled because I really didn't know crap about how to learn, except the occasional standardized test.
/Graduated low in class, up to ears in debt, the end.
 
2013-06-08 12:07:53 PM

Maul555: Infernalist: studs up: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

So...Bush's fault?
again

I was merely commenting on the GOP rag raging about a failed GOP Bipartisan policy.

Fixed that for you...


Bush implemented it, he gets to own it.  That's how it works.
 
2013-06-08 12:08:47 PM

John Dewey: Let's see what happens when we teach teachers to not use tests or curriculum to be the be all and end all.


Holy shiat ... that was the best TED talk I've ever seen. Brought tears to my eyes, I tell ya.
 
2013-06-08 12:11:26 PM

legion_of_doo: Fano: John Dewey: Let's see what happens when we teach teachers to not use tests or curriculum to be the be all and end all.

But but how can we tell if the children is learning without standardized tests?

Why test at all?

What we need to do is ignore the situation, never test for anything, pay all the teachers (and especially the school administrators) and then we'll know that the children is learning.

/Because capitalism failed us, and we need to be more like Soviet Russia.


You mean good at math and physics?

I agree

/Also hammered on Vodak is pretty good to.
 
KIA
2013-06-08 12:11:51 PM

Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.


Yes, because the GOP is renowned for running New York City. Their unquestioned dominance of the political scene there is surely the cause of all of this.

/ sarcasm off
 
2013-06-08 12:12:35 PM

Uzzah: MJMaloney187: 1.7% drop in math is almost inconsequential. Fire all the Living Environment teachers and replace them with retired engineers.

WTF is "Living Environment"? Biology? Earth science? Sounds like some Gaia-infused hippie bullcrap.
/Then again, "Earth science" isn't much better. Should've gone with "a buch of stuff that's outside."


I don't know what Living Environment is. If it's Biology, then why not call it Biology? Retired engineers would teach Biology like a boss, too.
 
2013-06-08 12:13:29 PM
Can't speak for New York, but teachers overall have diminishing authority in their own classrooms.  School districts are so paranoid about lawsuits that teachers are completely handcuffed when it comes to disciplining children, teaching curriculum, and getting authorities involved in the home lives of at-risk kids.

But by all means, let's keep blaming the teachers for kids being dumber every year.
 
2013-06-08 12:14:12 PM

studs up: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

So...Bush's fault?
again


More like our faults for electing idiots that have the ability to screw us this badly.
 
2013-06-08 12:14:13 PM

KIA: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

Yes, because the GOP is renowned for running New York City. Their unquestioned dominance of the political scene there is surely the cause of all of this.

/ sarcasm off


Ever heard of NCLB?
 
2013-06-08 12:15:34 PM
"In US History, schools whose exams were graded centrally saw their passing rates drop by an average of 3.9 percentage points from 2011 to 2012.

By contrast, schools that graded their own exams boosted their passing rates by an average of 2.4 percentage points."- Huh?  Is there a third option baseline they are comparing against?

HighlanderRPI: Ah, the Regents exam, I grew up in NY and had to take those awful things - I could never understand why a "standardized" test like that could have essay questions - there is no way to standardize the grading, as the grading of an essay question is highly subjective.

/Had a number of teachers in my school that used to spend the last 2-3 months of the year basically teaching to the exam to make sure they passed
//I Tutored one high school girl who could not point to the Atlantic Ocean on an unlabeled map of the world


My mother worked on the Regents exams for years.  (She is retiring from State Ed later this month).  There is something called 'Rubrics'.  It is possible to score essays consistently as long as you have good rubrics and you follow them.  I'm oversimplifying, but basically you have a checklist of elements that you look for and each one is worth X amount.
 
2013-06-08 12:25:21 PM
"If we had 10 people grading a paper . . . where that teacher's coming from may determine how that teacher sees that paper," he said. "You always have disagreement when you have that subjectivity."

A test were the outcome is subjective is not a very good test in the first place.  Maybe that's your damn problem you idiots.
 
2013-06-08 12:26:32 PM

bismark189: Infernalist: 1) GOP President pushes a system that punishes schools for failing students and rewards them for 'teaching to the test'.

2) Teachers, under pressure from everyone, adapt to the system and make sure very few students fail.

3) Hilarity ensues.

4) GOP rag rants about bad teachers using a flawed system.

Do your history, bud.  Good ole Teddy K. created the bill.  Little Bush just tossed him a bone and signed it.

That said, being a former teacher, NCLB is a load of shiat.


I disagree, NCLB is/was an improvement over the previous system of ignoring the problem.  NCLB set up a system to measure results and required that every student be measured every year.

Objective measurement is going to be a cornerstone of any valid education reform.  If you don't know where you are doing it right and where you are failing, then you have no ability to improve.  NCLB got that much right, and I'll give a big ole fark you to anyone who says we need a more "holistic" approach to measurement.  If it's not an objective measure it's not a measure.  If you feel that there are things not being measured, then find a way to measure them don't throw out the valid measurements.  Attention span, self discipline and ability to ignore distraction are all things that should be and can be measured but are being ignored.  That doesn't mean that we should throw out the metrics that do work.

Public education will never succeed with 100% of children, so on the face of it No Child Left Behind's goal of 100% meeting graduation standards can never be achieved.  On the other hand, the public system should be able to move 100% of all students forward in each year.  They may not reach the ultimate goal, but as long as they are moving forward the system is working.
 
2013-06-08 12:27:06 PM
I used to be a secondary scorer for state competency essays, so I'm getting a kick out of this.
Essays were scanned.
With 10th grade essays, only a small fraction were written in cursive.
 
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