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(Christian Science Monitor)   With foreign jihadis rushing to Syria to fight on both sides of the war and chemical warfare now confirmed, shiat is getting very serious in an area known for taking everything way too seriously   (csmonitor.com ) divider line
    More: Scary, Syrians, Britain, Syrian President Bashar Assad, french foreign minister, chemical weapons, Le Monde, chain of custody, free daily  
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2744 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Jun 2013 at 10:08 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-05 09:30:44 AM  
With that many waves of extremists rolling in, the "if you ain't with us you're agin us" will be strong.
I feel really bad for the people who really just want to live their lives and not be "rebels" or "loyalists" or whatever.
 
2013-06-05 09:59:20 AM  
The Rebel front is now controlled by an Al-Qaeda affiliate, is teeming with foreigners, they've already killed possibly up to 200 in Syria in a bombing (complete government blackout, we don't know the real figures) and they were just caught trying to kill US soldiers on a Turkish air base using Sarin Gas last week. The tide is also turning against them and Assad is getting stronger by the day.

At this point, fark the Rebels as well as Assad, may they both be extremely successful within the borders of Syria.
 
2013-06-05 10:09:53 AM  
Syria's business.
 
2013-06-05 10:10:42 AM  

unlikely: With that many waves of extremists rolling in, the "if you ain't with us you're agin us" will be strong.
I feel really bad for the people who really just want to live their lives and not be "rebels" or "loyalists" or whatever.


As strong as the "if you can't beat em join em" movement?

/totally agree with you
 
2013-06-05 10:10:48 AM  
This would be the perfect time to attack Iran
 
2013-06-05 10:11:18 AM  
www.theblaze.com
 
2013-06-05 10:11:34 AM  
que Syria, Syria.
 
2013-06-05 10:12:16 AM  

spiderpaz: This would be the perfect time to attack Iran


Yeah Syria's way too busy to do anything about it, Hizbullah said they would not get involved and they are way too busy, that just leaves Hamas and they've been battered so much in the last years and Iran cut off their money train so probably wouldn't do anything.

Sure looks like it is a good window, yes.
 
2013-06-05 10:12:29 AM  
he says he can tell the good guys from the bad guys
 
2013-06-05 10:12:53 AM  

Arkanaut: Syria's business.


Sadly, this.

Most everyone can agree that Western interference in the region is a major contributor to why things are farked up in the ME. We should forgo stepping in this time and actually let the people fight until they're done, and see both how bad it can be, and, more importantly, learn how to end a conflict politically rather than because a foreign power stepped in.
 
2013-06-05 10:13:07 AM  

apotheosis27: [www.theblaze.com image 605x365]


A CFL!!!?!?! That's outrageous!
 
2013-06-05 10:14:07 AM  
This war has officially reached the "I don't want either side to win" stage.
 
2013-06-05 10:14:25 AM  
t.qkme.me

Seriously, US, stay the fark out.
 
2013-06-05 10:16:53 AM  
Thank goodness no country in the region has nuclear weapons, eh?
 
2013-06-05 10:17:26 AM  

Tatsuma: spiderpaz: This would be the perfect time to attack Iran

Yeah Syria's way too busy to do anything about it, Hizbullah said they would not get involved and they are way too busy, that just leaves Hamas and they've been battered so much in the last years and Iran cut off their money train so probably wouldn't do anything.

Sure looks like it is a good window, yes.


I'm not saying we should do it.  It would be way to expensive, and it would probably blow back in everyone's faces.  But if we're going to do something that stupid, this would be the optimal time because key players are too distracted with Syria to aid in the Persian Gulf when they are so focused on the Mediterranean.  Not to mention that if Iran were to be attacked, they couldn't help Assad, and that would tip the scales in favor of the rebels again.

It's like when you have a friend who's already made up his mind to do something really dumb and so you tell him "if you're going to do this, at least do it this way so it has a better chance of having a less shiatty outcome".
 
2013-06-05 10:19:26 AM  

Carousel Beast: Arkanaut: Syria's business.

Sadly, this.

Most everyone can agree that Western interference in the region is a major contributor to why things are farked up in the ME. We should forgo stepping in this time and actually let the people fight until they're done, and see both how bad it can be, and, more importantly, learn how to end a conflict politically rather than because a foreign power stepped in.


Until Syria uses one of the fancy new Russian anti-aircraft weapons to down a civilian jet.
 
2013-06-05 10:19:47 AM  

Carousel Beast: Sadly, this.

Most everyone can agree that Western interference in the region is a major contributor to why things are farked up in the ME. We should forgo stepping in this time and actually let the people fight until they're done, and see both how bad it can be, and, more importantly, learn how to end a conflict politically rather than because a foreign power stepped in.


Bear in mind, if France had said this roughly 240 years ago, there probably wouldn't have been a United States of America.

I think there's nothing inherently wrong with helping the good guys in a civil war, but the responsibility is on us to know the difference between helping and owning a side in the conflict, to say nothing of knowing the difference between knowing the good guys from the bad.
 
2013-06-05 10:19:58 AM  
i240.photobucket.com
 
2013-06-05 10:20:00 AM  
Sucks to be living in Syria. Reminds me of the Lebanese civil war, only with nerve gas. That lasted a mere 15 years. U.S. diplomatic and military involvement was, well, let's say less than successful.
 
2013-06-05 10:20:18 AM  

Nightsweat: This war has officially reached the "I don't want either side to win" stage.

 
2013-06-05 10:20:34 AM  

MichiganFTL: [t.qkme.me image 310x223]

Seriously, US, stay the fark out.


Have to agree. Don't try to intervene in a rabid dog-fight.
 
2013-06-05 10:20:37 AM  

spiderpaz: I'm not saying we should do it.


Me neither, I simply agreed that it seemed to be a really good window in terms of keeping it limited for the same reasons you just listed.
 
2013-06-05 10:20:50 AM  
We're one Archduke Ferdinand away from this turning into World War III. :-(
 
2013-06-05 10:20:51 AM  
I thought President Gutsy Call drew a red line in the sand regarding chemical weapons.

/Now waiting to see who defends their boyfriend
 
2013-06-05 10:21:06 AM  
Personally, they can all deal with their own problems without involving any of us sane nations outside of the ME.  And that includes our 'ally' in the region.  Fark em all.
 
2013-06-05 10:21:09 AM  

Tatsuma: The Rebel front is now controlled by an Al-Qaeda affiliate, is teeming with foreigners, they've already killed possibly up to 200 in Syria in a bombing (complete government blackout, we don't know the real figures) and they were just caught trying to kill US soldiers on a Turkish air base using Sarin Gas last week. The tide is also turning against them and Assad is getting stronger by the day.

At this point, fark the Rebels as well as Assad, may they both be extremely successful within the borders of Syria.


Unfortunately had Assad just left well enough alone he might have contained this to Syria but unfortunately this is turning into a regional Sunni vs shiate conflict that is well already spilling over into Lebanon, has the start makings in Iraq and may very well spill into Iran as well.

You also have the Kurds who are eying the conflict with hungry eyes realizing that if the entire region devolves into regional civil war, they have a good chance at establishing their own nation state by taking parts of Syria and the Northern half of Iraq.

And I can't even imagine what the hell Israel is thinking right now when they look over their fences and see the makings of wild fires like this, especially when you have Clerics in Lebanon saying that yes Israel is bad but leave them alone and focus everything on taking down Assad.

And then you throw in the world powers into the mix, with Russia terrified of the creeping hard line Islam against their borders and the US who all of a sudden decided maybe we want to be buddy buddy with those Islamists and maybe get another Rambo movie out of it.

shiat is just farked up on all levels
 
2013-06-05 10:24:05 AM  

Nightsweat: This war has officially reached the "I don't want either side to win" stage.




I'm sticking with "better the devil you know".
We can deal with terrorists more than we can a Russia-Syria-Iran alliance that thinks nothing of using banned weapons or shipping soldiers and military systems over borders.

We know what it takes to hunt down a few stragglers.
We can't afford a restart to the Cold War on an energy and transport nexus.
 
2013-06-05 10:24:19 AM  

Arkanaut: Syria's business.


Niiiiiiiice.
 
2013-06-05 10:24:31 AM  

IdBeCrazyIf: Unfortunately had Assad just left well enough alone he might have contained this to Syria but unfortunately this is turning into a regional Sunni vs shiate conflict that is well already spilling over into Lebanon, has the start makings in Iraq and may very well spill into Iran as well.


Don't forget Turkey. You already have protests against Erdogan, now add a lot of Syrian refugees and terrorists and it's a nice mix for a blow up as well.

IdBeCrazyIf: And I can't even imagine what the hell Israel is thinking right now when they look over their fences and see the makings of wild fires like this, especially when you have Clerics in Lebanon saying that yes Israel is bad but leave them alone and focus everything on taking down Assad.


A lot of 'Yeah, if we hadn't been there to unite them against us, that's pretty much how it'd be all the time.' That's because if Israel hadn't been here to unite them against us, that's pretty much how it'd be all the time because Shias and Sunnis might hate us, but they hate each others almost as much.

IdBeCrazyIf: And then you throw in the world powers into the mix, with Russia terrified of the creeping hard line Islam against their borders and the US who all of a sudden decided maybe we want to be buddy buddy with those Islamists and maybe get another Rambo movie out of it.


Don't forget the rumblings in China and the problems they've been having with their own Muslim extremists.
 
2013-06-05 10:25:39 AM  

way south: I'm sticking with "better the devil you know".
We can deal with terrorists more than we can a Russia-Syria-Iran alliance that thinks nothing of using banned weapons or shipping soldiers and military systems over borders.


Are you serious? Al-Nusra in power is a much much much worse alternative than Bashar at this point.
 
2013-06-05 10:26:37 AM  

Carousel Beast: Arkanaut: Syria's business.

Sadly, this.

Most everyone can agree that Western interference in the region is a major contributor to why things are farked up in the ME. We should forgo stepping in this time and actually let the people fight until they're done, and see both how bad it can be, and, more importantly, learn how to end a conflict politically rather than because a foreign power stepped in.


the middle was a bastion of prosperous happy peaceful people till white dudes showed up huh?
 
2013-06-05 10:27:00 AM  

Tatsuma: way south: I'm sticking with "better the devil you know".
We can deal with terrorists more than we can a Russia-Syria-Iran alliance that thinks nothing of using banned weapons or shipping soldiers and military systems over borders.

Are you serious? Al-Nusra in power is a much much much worse alternative than Bashar at this point.


Not for us.
 
2013-06-05 10:27:48 AM  
lets just stay out of this one, and let all the savages kill each other. deal?
 
2013-06-05 10:28:43 AM  
At this point, I think people in that part of the world just like to kill other people. Affiliations be damned, there's killing to be had, so it's everyone into the pool.

/From orbit and be done with them.
 
2013-06-05 10:30:07 AM  

Infernalist: Not for us.


Yes, for America too. Did you not read about how they tried to kill American soldiers in Turkey using gas they got from Syria?
 
2013-06-05 10:31:18 AM  
If only our Teahadists would go join the fight for Righteous and Holy glory!
 
2013-06-05 10:32:46 AM  

Tatsuma: Infernalist: Not for us.

Yes, for America too. Did you not read about how they tried to kill American soldiers in Turkey using gas they got from Syria?


He did it himself?  or you're asserting that his people did it directly under his orders?
 
2013-06-05 10:33:06 AM  

Dr. Goldshnoz: Carousel Beast: Arkanaut: Syria's business.

Sadly, this.

Most everyone can agree that Western interference in the region is a major contributor to why things are farked up in the ME. We should forgo stepping in this time and actually let the people fight until they're done, and see both how bad it can be, and, more importantly, learn how to end a conflict politically rather than because a foreign power stepped in.

the middle was a bastion of prosperous happy peaceful people till white dudes showed up huh?


Yes.
encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
 
2013-06-05 10:33:10 AM  

Tatsuma: Don't forget Turkey. You already have protests against Erdogan, now add a lot of Syrian refugees and terrorists and it's a nice mix for a blow up as well.


Which is funny because most of these uprisings take place because of restricted activities being assumed upon the populace, yet often end up placing had line extremists in power.

Tatsuma: that's pretty much how it'd be all the time because Shias and Sunnis might hate us, but they hate each others almost as much.


The only threat at this point is weapons and weapon systems migrating across borders which increasingly have stopped being borders anymore. The entire region is devolving into this massive grey conflict not between nation states but between cultural lines.

Tatsuma: Don't forget the rumblings in China and the problems they've been having with their own Muslim extremists.


True, but China has a way of dealing with those things that makes other areas in the world seem timid and so long as the rising middle class in China doesn't see the ugly under belly of forced labor camps, expulsion to NK, dissapearences, and out right deaths there honestly will be no change since must of their extremist muslims are considered foreigners by and large to everyone else in China... ie they ain't Chinese so who gives a rats shiat about them throw their ass in the stocks.
 
2013-06-05 10:34:24 AM  

Tatsuma: spiderpaz: I'm not saying we should do it.

Me neither, I simply agreed that it seemed to be a really good window in terms of keeping it limited for the same reasons you just listed.


Why wouldn't it stay limited anyway? When has any Middle Eastern state come to the aid of any other Middle Eastern state that was engaged in a war, other than when the U.S. rounded up the Gulf Arab toy militaries and allowed them token participation in the first Gulf War? I'm talking post-1973, the last time the Arab militaries had even rough parity with Israel.

Israel has invaded Lebanon twice, bombed Syria and Iraq, and nobody did a thing about it, because Israel's enemies are too militarily weak to get involved and they don't REALLY care that much about their co-religionist neighbors, anyway. If Israel had U.S. backing for air strikes on Iran, do you think Syria would try to stop them even without being in the middle of a war? One thing dictators are known for is a keen sense of self-preservation. And everyone else in the region hates and fears Iran.

Hezbollah and Hamas would launch a bunch of rockets, but those aren't strategically significant.
 
2013-06-05 10:34:36 AM  
The enemy of my enemy is my future enemy.

Except when the enemy of my enemy is already my other enemy.
 
2013-06-05 10:35:52 AM  

Infernalist: He did it himself? or you're asserting that his people did it directly under his orders?


Al-Nusra tried that.

Are you even reading the thread? Why are you jumping in a conversation when you have no idea what it's about?
 
2013-06-05 10:38:56 AM  

Fine. Let them kill each other.


Do not interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.

 
2013-06-05 10:40:50 AM  

Nuuu: Carousel Beast: Sadly, this.

Most everyone can agree that Western interference in the region is a major contributor to why things are farked up in the ME. We should forgo stepping in this time and actually let the people fight until they're done, and see both how bad it can be, and, more importantly, learn how to end a conflict politically rather than because a foreign power stepped in.

Bear in mind, if France had said this roughly 240 years ago, there probably wouldn't have been a United States of America.

I think there's nothing inherently wrong with helping the good guys in a civil war, but the responsibility is on us to know the difference between helping and owning a side in the conflict, to say nothing of knowing the difference between knowing the good guys from the bad.


The thing is, if you go in too early when the "losing" side is still very strong with a lot of internal support, you inevitably end up with either a long-term insurrection, or a brutal dictator that has to engage in wholesale slaughter and oppression to keep the peace.

The US might still be unstable if European powers had come in during 1861 and forced an end to hostilities. We need to let them work it out for themselves.
 
2013-06-05 10:41:08 AM  

Tatsuma: Infernalist: He did it himself? or you're asserting that his people did it directly under his orders?

Al-Nusra tried that.

Are you even reading the thread? Why are you jumping in a conversation when you have no idea what it's about?


Because I'm bored and you're fun.

Why is this the first I've heard of this terrorist attacking American soldiers?

Oh wait, all I'm finding on this 'story' is stuff being vomited up by Russian propaganda sites, a site by Lyndon Larouche and a few other obvious freakshow sites.

and even 'they' are only talking about finding stuff in houses, with no mention of any targets intended.

It's a bullshiat story, but that's about par for course considering the source.
 
2013-06-05 10:41:17 AM  

Dr. Goldshnoz: Carousel Beast: Arkanaut: Syria's business.

Sadly, this.

Most everyone can agree that Western interference in the region is a major contributor to why things are farked up in the ME. We should forgo stepping in this time and actually let the people fight until they're done, and see both how bad it can be, and, more importantly, learn how to end a conflict politically rather than because a foreign power stepped in.

the middle was a bastion of prosperous happy peaceful people till white dudes showed up huh?


Well, it was a relatively stable part of the Ottoman Empire. Colonial gerrymandering by the Brits, and political shenanigans by the oil companies are behind a lot of the current trouble (as are Cold War manipulation by the Russians and NATO powers). This trope about "those people have been fighting for thousands of years" is no more useful a characterization of the Middle East than it would be of Western Europe (who had been fighting for millennia up until 1945).
 
2013-06-05 10:42:17 AM  
Um, good.

Hopefully, it'll erupt into an all out brouhaha and we'll be down a few hundred thousand people seeking a short cut to the virgin line.
 
2013-06-05 10:42:58 AM  

IdBeCrazyIf: Which is funny because most of these uprisings take place because of restricted activities being assumed upon the populace, yet often end up placing had line extremists in power.


Yeah. Right now basically this will have two outcomes:

1. Erdogan stays in power, consolidates his control over the country, keeps pushing for Islamization of Turkey and calls it a victory over evil secularists.
2. Military coup

I'd say it's 80% for the first one, and 20% for the latter (and really only if the violence keeps on escalating).

Either way, Turks lose.

IdBeCrazyIf: The only threat at this point is weapons and weapon systems migrating across borders which increasingly have stopped being borders anymore. The entire region is devolving into this massive grey conflict not between nation states but between cultural lines.


Exactly, before the borders were porous enough but at this point it's just a free for all.

IdBeCrazyIf: True, but China has a way of dealing with those things that makes other areas in the world seem timid and so long as the rising middle class in China doesn't see the ugly under belly of forced labor camps, expulsion to NK, dissapearences, and out right deaths there honestly will be no change since must of their extremist muslims are considered foreigners by and large to everyone else in China... ie they ain't Chinese so who gives a rats shiat about them throw their ass in the stocks.


Oh, of course. I'm just saying that if they get bothered too much by their own extremists, they might start thinking that as a whole it's not worth dealing with these Middle-Eastern countries, especially considering just how much natural gas and oil has been found in Israel recently. I'm still thinking China swooping in and paying for exclusive access would not be shocking at this point. They'd get access to reserves at least as big as Saudi Arabia's and it only needs to be accessed, which will happen before the end of the decade.
 
2013-06-05 10:43:37 AM  
As I said before, we need to stay the fark out of it and let them sort out their problems once and for all.  And when it's all done, we'll go in, and determine if the 'winners' need to be kicked around for war crimes violations.
 
2013-06-05 10:47:11 AM  

mbillips: Why wouldn't it stay limited anyway? When has any Middle Eastern state come to the aid of any other Middle Eastern state that was engaged in a war, other than when the U.S. rounded up the Gulf Arab toy militaries and allowed them token participation in the first Gulf War? I'm talking post-1973, the last time the Arab militaries had even rough parity with Israel.


Well there were scares that Syria and Hizbullah would come to Iran's aid, Hamas as well for a time, because they were a client state, an organization that takes orders directly from Iran and an organization getting hundreds of millions from Iran.

Israel has invaded Lebanon twice, bombed Syria and Iraq, and nobody did a thing about it, because Israel's enemies are too militarily weak to get involved and they don't REALLY care that much about their co-religionist neighbors, anyway. If Israel had U.S. backing for air strikes on Iran, do you think Syria would try to stop them even without being in the middle of a war? One thing dictators are known for is a keen sense of self-preservation. And everyone else in the region hates and fears Iran.

I never said people like Jordan or Qatar would get involved. It was always about Syria, Hizbullah and Hamas.

Hezbollah and Hamas would launch a bunch of rockets, but those aren't strategically significant.

Hizbullah have already declared they would stay neutral.
 
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