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(Yahoo)   1977: Ford Pinto controversy, 27 dead, Pinto recalled, still talked about 36 years later. 2013:Jeep does one better with 285 deaths, refuses to recall   (autos.yahoo.com) divider line 183
    More: Stupid, Ford Pinto, jeeps, Chrysler, Jeep Liberty, axles, Jeep Grand Cherokee, Court of Arbitration for Sport, fuel tank  
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17736 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 Jun 2013 at 11:52 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-04 08:18:14 PM
i4.ytimg.com
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-06-04 08:20:39 PM
Chrysler responded that the HDPE fuel tanks met NHTSA's own safety standards for rear crash impact, but NHTSA contended that the standard is a minimum target, and "does not require NHTSA to ignore deadly problems."

When the case goes to court, does NHTSA have to prove the cars violated regulations in effect when they were made? Does Chrysler have to prove that you could launch a Jeep into the Sun and it wouldn't get hot? Something in between?
 
2013-06-04 08:26:48 PM
Listen, if you statists would get big government out of Liberty production...
 
2013-06-04 08:45:00 PM

deffuse: [i4.ytimg.com image 320x180]


Done in one. His bit about recalls was the first thing I thought of when I heard this on the news tonight.
 
2013-06-04 09:13:12 PM
They want a rekall?

www.total-recall-2012.net
 
2013-06-04 09:13:15 PM
This is bullsh*t. Stop buying Jeeps and see how fast they change their minds

/hurts to say that
//Jeep herder
 
2013-06-04 09:21:39 PM
Let's see.

Settle for $1,000,000 to each of the 285.  $285,000,000

Fix 2.7 million vehicles at $200 each $540,000,000

Of course, the wouldn't settle at that rate anyway.   Spend $50,000,000 in lawyers to knock that down to $100,000.  PROFIT! (relatively speaking).

Families of the dead.  Don't take it personally.  It's a business decision.

This kind of "business decision" is all too common, but it's better than interfering in the free market, no?
 
2013-06-04 09:26:48 PM

ZAZ: Chrysler responded that the HDPE fuel tanks met NHTSA's own safety standards for rear crash impact, but NHTSA contended that the standard is a minimum target, and "does not require NHTSA to ignore deadly problems."

When the case goes to court, does NHTSA have to prove the cars violated regulations in effect when they were made? Does Chrysler have to prove that you could launch a Jeep into the Sun and it wouldn't get hot? Something in between?


It's essentially a "new problem" because their design introduced yet another way to burn to death that wasn't foreseen at the time they met the regulations.

They might win on a technicality, but it never looks good to say "we built the car according to standards from 10 years ago, and those standards might burn you to death today."

And while the journalist is tying the location of the gas tank to "in front of the rear axle" as added safety - that's not why the new design is safer.  It's just because it was moved forward.  There's more car to crash before you hit the fuel tank.

It doesn't help Chrysler's cause that they redesigned the fuel tank under the back seat in 2005.  They know they are guilty, but they have no means of fixing the problem on the existing models.  You can't just "move" a gas tank for a car.  At best, they'd have to introduce more means of protection for the gas tank where it is.
 
2013-06-04 09:49:51 PM
I was told we don't need government interference and regulations because businesses will always do what's right for the consumer. So this is pretty much a non-issue
 
2013-06-04 09:58:47 PM
 
2013-06-04 10:22:24 PM
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/95095/top-secret-pinto-explosion-o.gif

Would post it here but Fark's photo size limit is the same as it was in 1999. (You know, gotta protect the dial up users)
 
2013-06-04 10:56:34 PM

deffuse: [i4.ytimg.com image 320x180]


aaaaand we're done here
 
2013-06-04 11:15:00 PM
Mother Jones made a huge mountain out of a small molehill with the Pinto. The Pinto Memo was nothing more than the cold calculus of business. You can rest assured that every manufacturer of consumer goods bandies about the number of deaths and injuries their products might cause if used improperly, are hit just so, or any number of potential failures. It sucks if you're the one that gets killed or injured, but that doesn't change the cost/benefit analysis or the need to have one. Take that and show it to the public and outrage is guaranteed, which is all MoJo did.

That's the reason this isn't big news, because there's not someone making a big stink about it. In fact, I frequent several car news-related websites, and this is the very first I've heard of it. Let me ask you... how many accidents of this type have there been? How many people have died in these vehicles in other types of accidents?

FTFA: "When will the killing end, when will 4-year olds stop being burned to death in Jeep Grand Cherokees?" Ditlow said.

Whether or not these vehicles are recalled (for a "flaw" that has existed for 20 years, by they way, and cannot possibly be remedied), this is a tactic that I loathe. Quit waving dead children at us. If it's the right thing to do, it's the right thing to do for everybody.
 
2013-06-04 11:59:39 PM
A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
 
2013-06-05 12:00:33 AM

I_Am_Weasel: Let's see.

Settle for $1,000,000 to each of the 285.  $285,000,000

Fix 2.7 million vehicles at $200 each $540,000,000

Of course, the wouldn't settle at that rate anyway.   Spend $50,000,000 in lawyers to knock that down to $100,000.  PROFIT! (relatively speaking).


Wow. Yeah, THIS, I guess. If true. And sadly, it does sound like how things work.
 
2013-06-05 12:04:44 AM

deffuse: [i4.ytimg.com image 320x180]


Damn you. Oh well. I'll post this:

Narrator: "A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one."


Business woman on plane: "Are there a lot of these kinds of accidents?"


Narrator: "You wouldn't believe."


Business woman on plane: "Which car company do you work for?"


Narrator: "Chrys......ummmmmm, a major one."


I didn't realized for a long time, that not once in the movie was his real name ever said.
 
2013-06-05 12:05:35 AM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: for a "flaw" that has existed for 20 years, by they way, and cannot possibly be remedied


Um, didn't the article say it was remedied in 2005 for the Grand Cherokee and imply it was remedied in 2007 for the Liberty?  Or do you just mean they can't fix the problem on an existing vehicle without giving the customer a newer model?
 
2013-06-05 12:07:25 AM

Tb  • 7 hours ago

ha my jeep liberty, 2006, overflows with gas I have to stop it manually when I am filling it up. How reassuring.


funny,got the same shiat on my 2005
 
2013-06-05 12:09:22 AM
I used to drive a Jeep.

The salesman showed me how to turn it back upright when it tipped over when I bought it....
 
2013-06-05 12:12:40 AM

remus: They want a rekall?

[www.total-recall-2012.net image 800x800]


hey, i built that!
 
2013-06-05 12:13:47 AM
As someone who drives a '98 Jeep Grand Cherokee daily, I noticed this when it was still on the dealer's lot (I also drove a '93 previously). Not a great design but I don't view it as a huge safety risk either, but, you best believe if I ever get rear-ended hard (ha) I'm getting out of the vehicle quickly (if I'm able to, obviously).

Sort of odd for them to be thumbing their nose at this though, there have been at least ten larger recalls in US auto history. Heck, Toyota's was double this and Ford's cruise control recall was 14 million vehicles.
 
2013-06-05 12:13:59 AM
Why does subby hate job creators?
 
2013-06-05 12:16:38 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dT0J0rcJTLo">http://www.youtube.com/wa tch?v=dT0J0rcJTLo
 
2013-06-05 12:17:08 AM
Chrysler, Dodges, and Jeeps are shiatty cars. What the fark kind of name is Chrysler anyway, it sounds like a SyFy alien race or some kind of STD. Something to do with chrysalis? Whatev. Another name for poop.

GM, Ford, or Jap is what I always say.
 
2013-06-05 12:18:00 AM
Unless I missed something, the article states '51' deaths.
 
2013-06-05 12:18:30 AM
Someone lived near my dorm back in the good old days with this on the back of his Pinto:

www.mysafetysign.com

Always was fun to see.
 
2013-06-05 12:19:29 AM
I have a Wrangler so I'm getting a kick...
 
2013-06-05 12:21:45 AM
Ford refused to recall the Crown Vic, and pretty much knew about the problems with putting the gas tank behind the rear axle since the late sixties, and it didn't stop them!

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/popular-police-cars-crown-vic to rias-prone-to-explo/nLszC/
 
2013-06-05 12:22:08 AM
From the article:  NHTSA suggests a potential fix in its letter - adding a skid plate sold as an option on some Grand Cherokees that would protect the tank in crashes - but it may take a judge to rule whether Chrysler has to do things NHTSA's way.
 
2013-06-05 12:22:38 AM

randomjsa: I have a Wrangler so I'm getting a kick...


*fistbump*
 
2013-06-05 12:23:04 AM
Typical Chrysler/Dodge quality... nothing to see here, move along.
 
2013-06-05 12:25:58 AM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: FTFA: "When will the killing end, when will 4-year olds stop being burned to death in Jeep Grand Cherokees?" Ditlow said.

Whether or not these vehicles are recalled (for a "flaw" that has existed for 20 years, by they way, and cannot possibly be remedied), this is a tactic that I loathe. Quit waving dead children at us. If it's the right thing to do, it's the right thing to do for everybody.


Agreed. I don't care what your argument is, using dead children to appeal to people's emotions is guaranteed to make me not listen. It's the same sick crap they do in those animal shelter commercials that bombard you with injured puppies and sad music for what seems like 20 minutes on end.

If you can't make your point without exploiting the dead for propaganda purposes, just STFU.
 
2013-06-05 12:27:36 AM

ThatBillmanGuy: I_Am_Weasel: Let's see.

Settle for $1,000,000 to each of the 285.  $285,000,000

Fix 2.7 million vehicles at $200 each $540,000,000

Of course, the wouldn't settle at that rate anyway.   Spend $50,000,000 in lawyers to knock that down to $100,000.  PROFIT! (relatively speaking).

Wow. Yeah, THIS, I guess. If true. And sadly, it does sound like how things work.


It could change.  It would be easy too.  First you hang the senior execs.  Then start working your way down the chain.  Somebody will choose to fix the problem before you get around to hanging them too.  The next batch of execs will not risk hanging.  They'll fix shiat right now.
 
2013-06-05 12:27:40 AM

Tyranicle: Unless I missed something, the article states '51' deaths.


FTFA: "The Center for Auto Safety has a far higher count of fires from all types of crashes - 201 in the affected Grand Cherokees alone, with 285 deaths." Would have to read the separate studies themselves to determine the variance, could be the difference between "death was caused by fire..." vs "fire was a factor in death".
 
2013-06-05 12:29:45 AM
www.imcdb.org
 
2013-06-05 12:29:49 AM
I miss my Jeep...
i.imgur.com
 
2013-06-05 12:31:13 AM

Smeggy Smurf: It could change.  It would be easy too.  First you hang the senior execs.  Then start working your way down the chain.  Somebody will choose to fix the problem before you get around to hanging them too.  The next batch of execs will not risk hanging.  They'll fix shiat right now.


Stalinism: it gets shiat done
 
2013-06-05 12:32:33 AM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: randomjsa: I have a Wrangler so I'm getting a kick...

*fistbump*


I miss mine.  At least she's gone to a good home.  Dad reclaimed her, and he's been able to do things for I couldn't, like spring for new wheels, fender flairs, and a whole new top.
 
2013-06-05 12:33:31 AM

RatMaster999: MaudlinMutantMollusk: randomjsa: I have a Wrangler so I'm getting a kick...

*fistbump*

I miss mine.  At least she's gone to a good home.  Dad reclaimed her, and he's been able to do things for I couldn't, like spring for new wheels, fender

flares, and a whole new top.

FTFM
 
2013-06-05 12:36:15 AM

SpdrJay: I used to drive a Jeep.

The salesman showed me how to turn it back upright when it tipped over when I bought it....


1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-06-05 12:38:00 AM
This is just their way of giving a bail-out to the nations burn wards.
 
2013-06-05 12:41:33 AM

randomjsa: I have a Wrangler so I'm getting a kick...


Well I imagine someone has wished you would DIAF
 
2013-06-05 12:43:38 AM

Primum: What the fark kind of name is Chrysler anyway


It's German.
www.chryslerclub.org

"They know they are guilty"
Yeah, the guys who built this did too.
Also paid a 17.35 million penalty for recall delay.
images.thetruthaboutcars.com
 
2013-06-05 12:44:05 AM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: Mother Jones made a huge mountain out of a small molehill with the Pinto. The Pinto Memo was nothing more than the cold calculus of business. You can rest assured that every manufacturer of consumer goods bandies about the number of deaths and injuries their products might cause if used improperly, are hit just so, or any number of potential failures. It sucks if you're the one that gets killed or injured, but that doesn't change the cost/benefit analysis or the need to have one. Take that and show it to the public and outrage is guaranteed, which is all MoJo did.


It was entirely a myth. It is well covered here:
http://www.pointoflaw.com/articles/archives/000023.php

The calculation was not as portrayed. It was a calculation involving something entirely different and was required by the federal government.

The Ford Pinto performed about middle of the road for cars of that size and vintage. Some were better, some were worse.
 
2013-06-05 12:44:54 AM
Chrysler responded that the HDPE fuel tanks met NHTSA's own safety standards for rear crash impact, but NHTSA contended that the standard is a minimum target,

Reminds me of "15 pieces of flair."
 
2013-06-05 12:45:57 AM

leadmetal: It was entirely a myth. It is well covered here:
http://www.pointoflaw.com/articles/archives/000023.php


Hmm. Site information provided and run by the Manhattan Institute.

To Sourcewatch!

Yeah. This sounds legitimate.
 
2013-06-05 12:47:19 AM
Toyota has them beat by managing to hoodwink themselves  outof a recall.
mediaserver.pulse2.com
 
2013-06-05 12:48:09 AM
The complainants problem is that the tank, made fairly durable and dentable, is between the rear bumper and the rear axle.

You can't move it ahead of the rear axle. That's a design choice and not something to change with better tank material.

And they have a point: Accidents resulting in fires are as rare as other accidents resulting in fires. They have to be penetrated, not just banged around, in an accident.   That takes special circumstances.
 
2013-06-05 12:49:28 AM
They bought their SUVs. They knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash
 
2013-06-05 12:50:55 AM

gameshowhost: Listen, if you statists would get big government out of Liberty production...


Obamotors attacks product called "Liberty".

Coincidence?
 
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