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(Salon)   The question libertarians just can't answer   (salon.com) divider line 611
    More: Obvious, members of the United Nations, industrial society, advanced countries, political philosophy, infant mortality, open borders, Fraser Institute, economic freedom  
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9971 clicks; posted to Politics » on 04 Jun 2013 at 4:07 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-04 07:56:41 PM  

Anonymous Bosch: "Why do you ignore the parts of history where unregulated commerce got us used meat stores and piles of chalk and lye masquerading as butter?"

"Why should we trust people to not break the rules in an unregulated market when we can't trust them to do so now? Is your position really that if there were no authorities to bribe, everyone would behave?"

"Why is it that practically every historical example of libertarian concepts at work- such as privatized fire departments -has had to be replaced with organized, well-regulated efforts for the safety of everyone involved?"

"Would you willingly live in an area without a police force?"

"Do you think it's significant that the most famous works championing versions of libertarianism are works of fiction and not philosophical/economic treatises?"

"You do know Ron Paul is full of shiat, right?"

Sorry, had too much straw for just one strawman.


Translation: Those questions will show my positions are dumb therefore I am going to insult them.
 
2013-06-04 08:09:23 PM  

palelizard: tirob: Prove their mental fitness, etc., to whom?  The Libertarian Tribunal for the Parsing of Contracts Between Indentured Servants and Their Owners?

Only an anarchist denies the benefits or need for a state.  The rest of the world just disagrees as to the scope (in terms of how much the government touches) and to the degree (in terms of how much it controls what it touches).  My particular brand of libertarianism leans towards limited scope with high degree, but among that scope is enforcing and regulating contract law.


I get it.  I know enough Spencer to know what you believe.  But if there's one thing we know about indentures, it's that people run away from them.  For a government to enforce contracts of indenture, it needs not only courts, but police with a long reach, both to retrieve the runaways and to make sure they live up to their "agreements" once they are caught.  Your state with "limited scope" will turn into a police state nightmare in no time flat.  Better just to prohibit "contracts" of this kind; we'll actually get a less intrusive state that way, whether you like the regulation or not.
 
2013-06-04 08:22:09 PM  

skullkrusher: It's not. I am pretty sure someone somewhere said that Stranger in a Strange Land is a libertarian book and that's just been repeated since by people who haven't read it.


One of the points of the article is that since Libertarians don't have a lot of real-world examples of their philosophy in action, they have to pick and choose a lot.

I've noticed Libertarians tend to post-mortem proselytize even more than the Mormons. Thomas Jefferson? Nevermind all the good he thought a responsible government could do, he liked freedom and therefore is now retroactively a libertarian. Suddenly every idea that Libertarians like becomes a Libertarian Idea.
 
2013-06-04 08:32:38 PM  
Because it is a crappy philosophy that doesn't work in the real world, that's why.
 
2013-06-04 08:38:30 PM  
What is a verbose contrarian?
 
2013-06-04 08:39:08 PM  

bugontherug: Hydra: The problem you describe is one of scarcity and trade-offs. A Wal-Mart employee chooses to be employed because he demands other goods and services he cannot provide for himself. Wal-Mart can "force" him to do something only to the extent that their employment contract allows them, and the employee is always free to leave and find new employment should he so choose. That might not be a wise decision for the employee since he demands food and other goods, but he is free to choose who employs him.

If food was as plentiful as air, no one would need to produce it, and that employee wouldn't have to work for it in the first place. Scarcity is a current condition of existence - there simply is not enough stuff available to satisfy every single person's wants and needs (this is what drives production in the first place). It is not something that Wal-Mart foists upon the employee as retribution for an act/failing to act in the manner in which it wants. The "force" that libertarians refer to is the only kind of force that humans can use against other humans; the fact that we all need to eat is part of our state of being human, and that's not something anyone can control

And this right here is part of why libertarianism lacks persuasive appeal, and has never and will never win a sustained majority of public support in any country ever. You harp on the semantics of "force" in such a way that reveals a total failure to grasp that the "free" market is highly coercive. You pretend that because nobody is pointing a gun at his head, that the Wal-Mart employee has "freedom." But workers everywhere know that freedom is illusory because they've inhabited the real world for more than five minutes. They do what the boss says because they have to.


Exactly. The worker is only free to quit and look for work. Very few people can quit a job and be employed somewhere else the next day. IF that Wal-Mart worker could walk across the street and get a comparable job at Target then then they would be free. S/he could freely choose employment based on whatever factors they choose and not based on needing to pay bills and buy food.
 
2013-06-04 08:43:08 PM  

ManRay: I can answer FTA question (assuming the author is aware of the difference between an anarchist and a libertarian): In general, people are assholes, especially to people they don't know. There have been libertarian societies, but they were small groups of people that interacted with each other regularly. The self regulation comes in to play when you know people personally. It's hard to screw over someone you know, easy to do to a faceless crowd. Past a certain point in population and some person or group will always arise to exert power over everyone else.


Hahahahaha! This is utter bullshiat. I'm trying to imagine the last ponzi scheme or investment scam I heard about that didn't involve the conman screwing over people they knew personally. For crying out loud, some of them steal from their own parents or people they go to church with! They live in the same neighborhoods with the people they're stabbing in the back. Not only that, there's a reason that a lot of them set themselves up in some of the less regulated financial markets or instruments --- because they know they can get away with no one watching over them.
 
2013-06-04 08:45:38 PM  

skullkrusher: SpiderQueenDemon: DjangoStonereaver: The fact that it was created by Robert Heinlein for STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND, and was never meant
to be taken seriously as an actual political system?

This.

I mean, my political belief system was made up by some white guys in wigs, some muckrakers, some suffragettes and a few safety experts and engineers who said 'let's try paying people a wage that'll let them buy the product and, y'know, not kill them,' but at least it's been play-tested.

/progressive
//used to be liberal, but we seem to need progressives more
///2013 just seems too much like the Gilded Age on repeat

I have never understood how SIASL was a novel about libertarianism as a political or economic system


I came here to say THIS.   It was much more akin to the Bible and about love and such as.
 
2013-06-04 08:52:53 PM  

gimmegimme: Anonymous Bosch: "Why do you ignore the parts of history where unregulated commerce got us used meat stores and piles of chalk and lye masquerading as butter?"

"Why should we trust people to not break the rules in an unregulated market when we can't trust them to do so now? Is your position really that if there were no authorities to bribe, everyone would behave?"

"Why is it that practically every historical example of libertarian concepts at work- such as privatized fire departments -has had to be replaced with organized, well-regulated efforts for the safety of everyone involved?"

"Would you willingly live in an area without a police force?"

"Do you think it's significant that the most famous works championing versions of libertarianism are works of fiction and not philosophical/economic treatises?"

"You do know Ron Paul is full of shiat, right?"

Sorry, had too much straw for just one strawman.

Then by all means tell us where libertarianism has worked.


Pretty sure that libertarian systems break down once a second human being is introduced into the equation.
 
2013-06-04 08:54:08 PM  
Libertarians have an answer to every basic question. The internal logic is elegantly consistent, which is why is often appeals to logic-minded people. That doesn't mean it's correct. I'm sure "the world is made of 4 elements: Fire, Water, Earth, and Wind," was an appealing concept, thought up by a brilliant guy. It's so appealing that we still see it in our culture, even though it's completely wrong.

"The spirit of system, a fertile Source of error, fertile in most sciences, is peculiarly so in political economy. It is a foe to solid knowledge; the more insidious and fatal because it usually accompanies superior mental capacity, being very nearly allied to that love and relish of truth which distinguishes minds of a superior order. The spirit of system consists in a tendency to reduce all phenomena to a few general rules, and to find a greater degree of order, symmetry, and simplicity in the natural, moral, or political world than really exists, or can exist. Instead of expanding the mind to the rich and endless variety and subtlety [sic] of nature or art, it would contract that variety to the narrow limits of the human understanding. It finds ready acceptance with all men; for it flatters both the pride and the indolence of human nature. It is much easier to comprehend and apply a few general rules than to understand the complicated structure and regulations of human society. Any man may make a parade of knowledge by dogmatizing [sic] about imaginary general principles, but to master facts, details, and the results of experience, is a long, toilsome, and humbling occupation."

- Sir John Barnard Byles

...that pretty much sums up the Libertarian mind. Sometimes those simple, unifying ideas turn out right, and are revolutionary, but sometimes they don't. It's easy enough to full in love with an elegant idea you wish were true, especially when the empirical evidence needed to refute it has to come from the soft and incomplete science of economics.
 
2013-06-04 08:54:38 PM  
There was a libertarian country. It was called Kowloon. It didn't turn out so well.

Party Game!  See if you can tell in this picture which area is Kowloon and which area is Hong Kong.

upload.wikimedia.org

Also, this documentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lby9P3ms11w
 
2013-06-04 09:00:14 PM  
USA version 1.0 and 1.1
 
2013-06-04 09:01:00 PM  
Maternal mortality in Mauritius is at 60 deaths per 1,000 live births, compared to 21 in the U.S.

21 women out of every 1,000 giving birth in the U.S. die?  2.1 women out of every 100 women? One out of every fifty?

Um. . .shenanigans.
 
2013-06-04 09:01:58 PM  

Dancin_In_Anson: Karac: Please, enlighten us then as to the true Libertarianism.

Enlighten yourself.


After reading what that link, the Libertarian belief is not a bad one...the problem isn't the belief system, the problem is the Libertarians themselves.  Take the de facto leader of the Libertarian movement, RON PAUL!!!!  He can't wait to tell you how much he hates the government spending your hard earned tax dollars, but then he submitted requests for over $157M of pork spending in 2011 and over $398M in 2012, and the mirage reveals itself to be total bullshiat.  Everything I have seen from Libertarians echos this kind of hypocrisy...
 
2013-06-04 09:05:50 PM  

DirkValentine: Dancin_In_Anson: BunkoSquad: That's almost word-for-word why I'm for single-payer health care.

Because anything other than total government control of the process is anarchy.

which single payer isn't AT ALL.

Such a liar.


The services provided are defined by the entity paying.  If the only payer is the government then the government has total control over services provided.

This has become a major issue in Canada because there is no private option (other than coming to the US) if the government won't pay.
 
2013-06-04 09:11:06 PM  

Rwa2play: tallguywithglasseson: Pay Pal founder and early Facebook investor Peter Thiel has given $1.25 million to an initiative to create floating libertarian countries in international waters, according to a profile of the billionaire in Details magazine.

Thiel has been a big backer of the Seasteading Institute, which seeks to build sovereign nations on oil rig-like platforms to occupy waters beyond the reach of law-of-the-sea treaties. The idea is for these countries to start from scratch--free from the laws, regulations, and moral codes of any existing place. Details says the experiment would be "a kind of floating petri dish for implementing policies that libertarians, stymied by indifference at the voting booths, have been unable to advance: no welfare, looser building codes, no minimum wage, and few restrictions on weapons."

Good luck on Libertarian Island, dipshiats.

Yeah, nice way to start wars that end of your floating islands reduced to rubble.


I, for one, welcome their new pirate overlords.
 
2013-06-04 09:15:07 PM  

Sgygus: We can't have a true libertarian country because human beings are useless and weak.


You left out "stupid".
 
2013-06-04 09:17:00 PM  

tallguywithglasseson: In D_I_A's defense, I'll bet public education really does suck in Texas.


True dat. I really like living in Austin, but I'd move if I had kids, to avoid putting them in Texas' "education" system.
 
2013-06-04 09:18:11 PM  

Karac: Darth_Lukecash: Honest Bender: Karac: Just shows how little faith libertarians have in their own ideas.

You're absolutely right.  My faith in libertarianism is insufficient to motivate me to insight an armed revolution.  You caught me.

That's the problem with libertarians. The second you attempt to force your views own someone else, you've already broke your own ideals.

The fact is this, people do not act in everyone's best interest, business do not do the right thing because of long term. People will largely act in self interest.

Thus Libertarians are complete and absolute adolescence of politics.

If a business can make $100 in profit by polluting a river until it catches fire it will.
A libertarian believes that enough people will realize that that business is behind the disaster and avoid their products enough to reduce that profit to a loss.
A realist realizes that the business will hide the source of the pollution, blame it on somebody else, or just move to China because who can even spell the name of one of their rivers?


China is state run, authoritarian libertarianism.
 
2013-06-04 09:20:58 PM  

gameshowhost: [i43.tinypic.com image 776x509] 

*brutal truth about libertarians*


Pfft.  What does that guy know about the meaning of words?

He should stick to being a political pundit.
 
2013-06-04 09:27:50 PM  

This Face Left Blank: Maternal mortality in Mauritius is at 60 deaths per 1,000 live births, compared to 21 in the U.S.

21 women out of every 1,000 giving birth in the U.S. die?  2.1 women out of every 100 women? One out of every fifty?

Um. . .shenanigans.


That has to be per 100,000.
 
2013-06-04 09:32:05 PM  
CDC shows ~650 pregnancy-related deaths per year... ~4m births per year... that works out to ~16.25.
 
2013-06-04 09:32:25 PM  

Mrtraveler01: Dancin_In_Anson: I can see by reading through this thread that public education has done it's job and done it...well.

What job is that exactly?


My guess is it is the standard "Everyone would see the greatness that Libertarianism would obviously be, if not for the state indoctrinating everyone to worship massive government intervention in their lives".

Libertarians always remind me of the scene in Life of Brian "What have the Romans government ever done for us?", so that basically all the benefits of governments have done over the millenia can be hand waved away, so that you can concentrate on all the negatives and pretend that getting rid of most of the government would remove all/most of the negatives but the positives would just magically stay around because otherwise Libertarianism would be a disaster that would make Stalinism look like a step up.

/also bobtheangryflower.jpg on DiA for "it's"
 
2013-06-04 09:41:42 PM  

gameshowhost: CDC shows ~650 pregnancy-related deaths per year... ~4m births per year... that works out to ~16.25.


US is 24.
 
2013-06-04 09:48:49 PM  
A similar question that I have asked libertarians, only to hear evasive answers, is this one:

Can you name one country that does not provide publicly funded primary education, and is not a shiathole (by American standards) for the typical working-class person living there?  For the purposes of this question, a religious school system that is supported or subsidized with public money would have to be considered a publicly funded school system.

I maintain that public primary education is a necessary (though not a sufficient) condition for a country to not be a shiathole.  I would like to see libertarians provide at least one counterexample before advocating the abolition of publicly funded education in the United States, as many libertarians do.
 
2013-06-04 09:50:30 PM  
"Who put the Bomp in the Bomp, Bomp, Bomp?"
 
2013-06-04 09:51:02 PM  

gimmegimme: Dancin_In_Anson: Honest Bender: There seem to be a lot of people who don't understand the difference between libertarians and anarchists.

They're getting better...Almost 2 hours in and no idiotic LOL Somalia yet.

Oh, wait.

sithon: I suggest Somalia is just such a libertarian paradise . No ,bureaucrats ,no law , no red tape, nobody getting into your bidness.

I stand corrected.

By all means, demonstrate why the comparison is improper.


Yes, I'd be interested as to why its improper too.
 
2013-06-04 09:55:57 PM  

gameshowhost: CDC shows ~650 pregnancy-related deaths per year... ~4m births per year... that works out to ~16.25.


How many births are multiples?  That would make the number of pregnancies carried to term slightly less than the number of births, bringing the maternal deaths per pregnancy carried to term just a little closer to the 21 figure.

Yes, I know that natural multiples are quite rare, but nowadays we have quite a bit of IVF and fertility drug use increasing the number of multiples.
 
2013-06-04 09:58:46 PM  

mrlewish: Honest Bender: If your approach is so great, why hasn't any country anywhere in the world ever tried it?
Lack of opportunity would be my guess.  You can't just relocate somewhere and declare a new government.  And no government is going to willingly give up power.

So you're saying that it would work except for human nature?  Sort of like Communism.


Sort of like any form of government, really.  Can you name a form of government that isn't eventually spoiled by human greed and selfishness?
 
2013-06-04 09:59:17 PM  

Befuddled: I thought that after the CIA overthrew the lawfully elected government in Chile and installed Pinochet, the neo-con lunatics convinced Pinochet to enact many libertarian policies and those policies failed miserably, so much so that Pinochet had to enact basically socialist economic policies to fix things. So libertarianism has been tried and it failed.


So a military dictator who took power in a coup enacted "libertarian policies"?

img.fark.net
 
2013-06-04 10:07:59 PM  

Baryogenesis: The point is Wal-Mart isn't literally forcing them out of their home, but they still have power over their workers. Do X, Y, Z or you're fired is a type on control especially when the choice is between rent, food and Wal-Mart's demands.


except... they are.
 
2013-06-04 10:10:28 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: DirkValentine: Dancin_In_Anson: BunkoSquad: That's almost word-for-word why I'm for single-payer health care.

Because anything other than total government control of the process is anarchy.

which single payer isn't AT ALL.

Such a liar.

The services provided are defined by the entity paying.  If the only payer is the government then the government has total control over services provided.

This has become a major issue in Canada because there is no private option (other than coming to the US) if the government won't pay.


Well that's a sweet deal if you have enough money.   Except over here you are farkED if you don't have health insurance.   There is no "oh, well, I have to wait a month or two for a doctor visit".  There is no doctor visit other than the ER, and they will fark your financial ass.

I would be happy with single payer with private options above and beyond regular care.

Curious - what type of procedure are you talking about specifically?
 
2013-06-04 10:21:53 PM  
s1.hubimg.com
Libertarian contract law.

/Couldn't find a better picture.
 
2013-06-04 10:25:30 PM  

Dancin_In_Anson: gimmegimme: By all means, demonstrate why the comparison is improper.

Libertarianism is not about no laws. Not in any way shape or form. And a Libertarian voter and a volunteer firefighter,  I point and laugh at your farking ignorant picture a post or two up.


The difficulty is that the folks that Libertarians continue to put onto ballots keep reinforcing that image. You want folks to take you seriously? Put up sane candidates, who don't make me think of this, again, and again...

lh3.googleusercontent.com
 
2013-06-04 10:30:55 PM  
Every country that has been subjected to neoliberal austerity in the past 50-odd years qualifies.


Urbn
--- because they know they can get away with no one watching over them.

Once.
 
2013-06-04 10:38:08 PM  
sithon
I suggest Somalia is just such a libertarian paradise . No ,bureaucrats ,no law , no red tape, nobody getting into your bidness.

Libertarians are big fans of the "Xeer" polycentric legal system indigenous to Somalia, in which elders from the tribes of the victim and accused get together and have a court. Obviously, totally analogous to the corporate-owned privatized courts these guys somehow manage to advocate with a straight face.
 
2013-06-04 10:39:01 PM  

DirkValentine: Mr. Eugenides: DirkValentine: Dancin_In_Anson: BunkoSquad: That's almost word-for-word why I'm for single-payer health care.

Because anything other than total government control of the process is anarchy.

which single payer isn't AT ALL.

Such a liar.

The services provided are defined by the entity paying.  If the only payer is the government then the government has total control over services provided.

This has become a major issue in Canada because there is no private option (other than coming to the US) if the government won't pay.

Well that's a sweet deal if you have enough money.   Except over here you are farkED if you don't have health insurance.   There is no "oh, well, I have to wait a month or two for a doctor visit".  There is no doctor visit other than the ER, and they will fark your financial ass.

I would be happy with single payer with private options above and beyond regular care.

Curious - what type of procedure are you talking about specifically?


In the two cases I personally know about it was and MRI and a CAT scan.  In both cases it was for cancer diagnosis in a member of a "low risk" group so the wait was 9 to 18 months.  In both cases the patients were essentially told that it was unlikely they had cancer.  One did, the other didn't, and I don't want to get any more detailed than that.

It's not like there's a huge flow of Canadians coming into the US for tests and procedures.  Probably 1 per 1000 to 1 per 500 Canadians.  So that's what maybe 30,000 to 100,000 incidents.  So it's small, but it does exist.
 
2013-06-04 10:43:40 PM  
My main complaint about libertarianism is that conveniently provided excuses for maintaining segregation (which wasn't so great for my older relatives in Alabama).  It was a way of saying, "I don't believe in segregation at all, I just think that Federal laws or Supreme Court decisions outlawing segregation are much worse than segregation, and people who don't like segregation should just work things out at the local level."  That's a brief synopsis of the chapter on civil rights from "The Conscience of a Conservative."

The counter-argument is that Goldwater wasn't a "true Libertarian," since his foreign policy ideas would've needed a huge military and espionage network to wipe Communism off the face of the earth...
 
2013-06-04 10:44:17 PM  
Why is the magazine called "Reason" when it contains nothing of the sort?
 
2013-06-04 10:48:42 PM  

vygramul: Hydra: STATE-ENFORCED Jim Crow laws, etc.

Really? You're blaming Jim Crow Laws for FORCING restaurants to have whites-only counters?

Seriously?

Wow.


That's pretty much true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jim_Crow_laws_by_State

This one probably made things difficult:

"printed, typewritten or written matter urging or presenting for public acceptance or general information, arguments or suggestions in favor of social equality or of inter
marriage between whites and Negroes, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and subject to fine not exceeding five hundred (500.00) dollars or imprisonment not exceeding six (6) months or both."

/The Jim Crow South was the sort of society that should've horrified true libertarians. . .
 
2013-06-04 10:53:57 PM  
if dolphins are so smart, then why do they live in igloos?
 
2013-06-04 10:55:50 PM  
minimal government, free trade, open borders, decriminalized drugs, no welfare state and no public education system =  Somalia?
 
2013-06-04 10:58:35 PM  

Moodybastard: minimal government, free trade, pirates, open borders, decriminalized drugs, no welfare state warlords in control of the food and no public education system and child soldiers =  Somalia?


FTFY
 
2013-06-04 11:16:02 PM  
Why don't you either kill yourself, shut up, or man up and get on the god-damned dance floor?
 
2013-06-04 11:21:32 PM  
Mine would be:
"How do you defend a philosophy of voluntary interaction in a modern world of 7 billion people where no man is an island, and science has shown us the mechanics of infectious disease, pollution and ecological footprints?"

Libertarianism might have been a ideal to strive toward 500 years ago, when the ozone layer wasn't a thing and you could wander off into the wilderness and live in isolation for your entire life. That time is far gone.
 
2013-06-04 11:23:26 PM  

HighOnCraic: vygramul: Hydra: STATE-ENFORCED Jim Crow laws, etc.

Really? You're blaming Jim Crow Laws for FORCING restaurants to have whites-only counters?

Seriously?

Wow.

That's pretty much true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jim_Crow_laws_by_State

This one probably made things difficult:

"printed, typewritten or written matter urging or presenting for public acceptance or general information, arguments or suggestions in favor of social equality or of inter
marriage between whites and Negroes, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and subject to fine not exceeding five hundred (500.00) dollars or imprisonment not exceeding six (6) months or both."

/The Jim Crow South was the sort of society that should've horrified true libertarians. . .


So pro gay marriage libertarians would be the likely culprits in a racist legal structure? There is a lot of shoe-horning going on in this thread to make the "threat of libertarianism" fit some pre-established mold. I'm not saying that's ill informed, but, potato logic seems to work well here when the circle jerk of farkleftist rally round the old Red Flag. The rest of us think that maybe your arguments are only solid with other people who are already on your team.
TEAM!
 
2013-06-04 11:24:55 PM  

Craptastic: Here's two questions that I have for "libertarians": Can you explain your political philosophy in a way that doesn't make you sound like a dick? Can you provide proof of a successful "libertarian" government? One that embodies your specific dystopian/Utopian ideals?


So... no? That's about what I figured.

/RON PAUL!
 
2013-06-04 11:33:27 PM  
Why are there no libertarian countries?

Why were there no democracies prior to Greece? Because nobody had tried it yet. There's a first time for everything.
 
2013-06-04 11:38:54 PM  

HighOnCraic: vygramul: Hydra: STATE-ENFORCED Jim Crow laws, etc.

Really? You're blaming Jim Crow Laws for FORCING restaurants to have whites-only counters?

Seriously?

Wow.

That's pretty much true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jim_Crow_laws_by_State

This one probably made things difficult:

"printed, typewritten or written matter urging or presenting for public acceptance or general information, arguments or suggestions in favor of social equality or of inter
marriage between whites and Negroes, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and subject to fine not exceeding five hundred (500.00) dollars or imprisonment not exceeding six (6) months or both."

/The Jim Crow South was the sort of society that should've horrified true libertarians. . .


It's putting the cart before the horse to say the Jim Crow laws are why this happened.
 
2013-06-04 11:39:49 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: It's not like there's a huge flow of Canadians coming into the US for tests and procedures.  Probably 1 per 1000 to 1 per 500 Canadians.  So that's what maybe 30,000 to 100,000 incidents.  So it's small, but it does exist.


Many of the Canadians who come to the US for tests and procedures are in fact covered under the Canadian health care system.  With a big chunk of the population living close to the US border, for many Canadians the nearest population center is in the USA, and it is more cost effective to send them there.
 
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