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(Salon)   The question libertarians just can't answer   (salon.com) divider line 611
    More: Obvious, members of the United Nations, industrial society, advanced countries, political philosophy, infant mortality, open borders, Fraser Institute, economic freedom  
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9966 clicks; posted to Politics » on 04 Jun 2013 at 4:07 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-04 04:27:07 PM

gameshowhost: [i40.tinypic.com image 479x229]
failed libertarian attempt to make their vision of the future sound appealing


If there's one thing that truly seems to defy Libertarian theory it's a love for the ultimate in fiat currency: Bitcoin.
 
2013-06-04 04:27:14 PM

I_C_Weener: Why the Dewey Decimal System puts comics in the same section as reference?


As an aspiring comic artist I use comics as reference all the time.
 
2013-06-04 04:27:45 PM
"farking people in power don't like relinquishing any of it" ... how does it work?
 
2013-06-04 04:28:03 PM
I can answer FTA question (assuming the author is aware of the difference between an anarchist and a libertarian): In general, people are assholes, especially to people they don't know. There have been libertarian societies, but they were small groups of people that interacted with each other regularly. The self regulation comes in to play when you know people personally. It's hard to screw over someone you know, easy to do to a faceless crowd. Past a certain point in population and some person or group will always arise to exert power over everyone else.


A question liberals have problems with:

Is there anything that you think is a good idea that the government should not be involved in?
 
2013-06-04 04:28:08 PM

gimmegimme: Dancin_In_Anson: Honest Bender: There seem to be a lot of people who don't understand the difference between libertarians and anarchists.

They're getting better...Almost 2 hours in and no idiotic LOL Somalia yet.

Oh, wait.

sithon: I suggest Somalia is just such a libertarian paradise . No ,bureaucrats ,no law , no red tape, nobody getting into your bidness.

I stand corrected.

By all means, demonstrate why the comparison is improper.


Because they would have to actually build up Somalia.  That want a country that is already built and humming along to just surrender itself to the freedom.
 
2013-06-04 04:28:12 PM

Hydra: Somacandra: Fine. Explain how Dr. Chomsky's description of American-style libertarianism is incorrect? The idea of private tyrannies is quite prevalent among people who otherwise might otherwise be amenable to the topic of Libertarianism. What safeguards exist in the philosophical politics of Libertarianism against the development of "private tyrannies" ?

Funny how as a linguist he fails even to define what "private tyrannies" are in the first place. That being said, I suppose we can deduce that what he really means by the term is a "free-market cartel" or some sort of a "natural" oligopoly or monopoly that emerges as a result of collusion. They drop their prices together below their cost of production to force all other competitors out of the market only to raise them back up and reap monopoly profits. As explained by one libertarian thinker Murray Rothbard here, that was largely a myth - whenever they would try to raise their prices back up, new firms/the older ones that were forced out would enter the market again. Here's a  video from Milton Friedman on the subject and a longer one from Burt Folsom. There are actually some good explanations that are out there - the trick is finding them.

The defining characteristic between "public" and "private" is the ability for a given entity to have legal, legitimate use of force. A private firm CANNOT force anyone to buy its products since it does not procure its own private military and holds guns to everyone's head (Wal-Mart doesn't have its own army). Instead, we have a public defense system in which the legal, legitimatized use of force is given to a special entity called the government. All situations that Chomsky was referring to where corporate interests were enshrined into law through legislation by the government have occurred precisely as a result of his ever-expanding government. Read up on some public choice theory if you want to learn more.

Rev.K: Again, I ask, why are regulations automatically bad?

Bad for ...


You are aware that private companies have their own armies in other countries right? Defense Systems Limited  is one of the better know but there are dozens. They generally operate in smaller countries without as much regulation to subdue the local populations when they try to protest a corporation ruining the local environment or not paying wages.
 
2013-06-04 04:28:49 PM
WHY ARE THERE STILL MONKEYS?!
 
2013-06-04 04:28:51 PM

Hydra: *Sigh* I'm tired. Watch this and get back to us (granted, it's not really the BEST video in the world, but it covers a fair amount and is a good primer).


LOL. ReasonTV? Really?

Ok, I'll humor you.
 
2013-06-04 04:29:07 PM

SpiderQueenDemon: DjangoStonereaver: The fact that it was created by Robert Heinlein for STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND, and was never meant
to be taken seriously as an actual political system?

This.

I mean, my political belief system was made up by some white guys in wigs, some muckrakers, some suffragettes and a few safety experts and engineers who said 'let's try paying people a wage that'll let them buy the product and, y'know, not kill them,' but at least it's been play-tested.

/progressive
//used to be liberal, but we seem to need progressives more
///2013 just seems too much like the Gilded Age on repeat


I have never understood how SIASL was a novel about libertarianism as a political or economic system
 
2013-06-04 04:31:02 PM

ManRay: I can answer FTA question (assuming the author is aware of the difference between an anarchist and a libertarian)


What's funny is that there's a lot more real-world evidence for anarchist theory - that is to say, actual political anarchism, not whatever Area Man has decided anarchism is - than for any sort of right-libertarian theory.

So why are we the ones getting shiat on? Oh, right, because there's an entire mass industry selling libertarian snake-oil.
 
2013-06-04 04:31:12 PM

vygramul: gameshowhost: [i40.tinypic.com image 479x229]
failed libertarian attempt to make their vision of the future sound appealing

If there's one thing that truly seems to defy Libertarian theory it's a love for the ultimate in fiat currency: Bitcoin.


as much as I hate to defend libertarians, I'm not really sure I'd call Bitcoin a fiat currency
 
2013-06-04 04:31:22 PM

BunkoSquad: Dancin_In_Anson: BunkoSquad: That's almost word-for-word why I'm for single-payer health care.

Because anything other than total government control of the process is anarchy.

I'm actually trying to picture a Libertarian approach to health care and all I can come up with are the smoking crater where the CDC used to be and the "Bring Out Your Dead" cart from Holy Grail.


http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=media_topic_healthcar e">http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=media_topic_health care
 
2013-06-04 04:32:31 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: ManRay: I can answer FTA question (assuming the author is aware of the difference between an anarchist and a libertarian)

What's funny is that there's a lot more real-world evidence for anarchist theory - that is to say, actual political anarchism, not whatever Area Man has decided anarchism is - than for any sort of right-libertarian theory.

So why are we the ones getting shiat on? Oh, right, because there's an entire mass industry selling libertarian snake-oil.


yeah, it has nothing to do with the fact that anarchism on any sort of meaningful scale is childish and naive
 
2013-06-04 04:32:35 PM
"If it keeps getting later and later, then how come it's early sometimes?"
 
2013-06-04 04:32:49 PM

Honest Bender: If your approach is so great, why hasn't any country anywhere in the world ever tried it?
Lack of opportunity would be my guess.  You can't just relocate somewhere and declare a new government.  And no government is going to willingly give up power.


So you're saying that it would work except for human nature?  Sort of like Communism.
 
2013-06-04 04:32:52 PM
 
2013-06-04 04:32:54 PM
I like all these pictures of Libertarian failures considering, of course, the article points out there are no libertarian govts. So now the question then becomes, under what system are these socio-disasters occurring?
Or maybe these are just stupid posts and the logical fallacies of the inept who are self satisfied but in the end have no real argument.
Logic....whatta biatch.
 
2013-06-04 04:33:34 PM

studs up: I like all these pictures of Libertarian failures considering, of course, the article points out there are no libertarian govts. So now the question then becomes, under what system are these socio-disasters occurring?
Or maybe these are just stupid posts and the logical fallacies of the inept who are self satisfied but in the end have no real argument.
Logic....whatta biatch.


CSB
 
2013-06-04 04:36:20 PM

Altair: vygramul: gameshowhost: [i40.tinypic.com image 479x229]
failed libertarian attempt to make their vision of the future sound appealing

If there's one thing that truly seems to defy Libertarian theory it's a love for the ultimate in fiat currency: Bitcoin.

as much as I hate to defend libertarians, I'm not really sure I'd call Bitcoin a fiat currency


Oh? What commodity backs it?
 
2013-06-04 04:36:47 PM

vygramul: Altair: vygramul: gameshowhost: [i40.tinypic.com image 479x229]
failed libertarian attempt to make their vision of the future sound appealing

If there's one thing that truly seems to defy Libertarian theory it's a love for the ultimate in fiat currency: Bitcoin.

as much as I hate to defend libertarians, I'm not really sure I'd call Bitcoin a fiat currency

Oh? What commodity backs it?


Smugness.
 
2013-06-04 04:36:53 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praxeology

libertarian intelligent design
 
2013-06-04 04:37:41 PM

studs up: Logic....whatta biatch.


In this context you are using logic out of place, the correct phrase should be

well structured argument....whatta biatch
 
2013-06-04 04:38:21 PM

vygramul: Altair: vygramul: gameshowhost: [i40.tinypic.com image 479x229]
failed libertarian attempt to make their vision of the future sound appealing

If there's one thing that truly seems to defy Libertarian theory it's a love for the ultimate in fiat currency: Bitcoin.

as much as I hate to defend libertarians, I'm not really sure I'd call Bitcoin a fiat currency

Oh? What commodity backs it?


There is definitely some sort of dorito and mountain dew exchange rate there
 
2013-06-04 04:38:31 PM
yes, lets blame the libertarians who are the people with no power but we'll let the democrats and republicans reign free over this economy they've managed to keep so healthy
 
2013-06-04 04:38:34 PM

Dancin_In_Anson: gimmegimme: By all means, demonstrate why the comparison is improper.

Libertarianism is not about no laws. Not in any way shape or form.


Yes, we all know that you don't like to pays taxes.

 And a Libertarian voter(who NEVER votes for Republicans)

and a volunteer firefighter (Look! This information is relevant!)

,  I point and laugh at your farking ignorant picture a post or two up.

Yes, you Fark IndependentsTM are always pointing and laughing. The most jolly folks on earth. The "Nelsons" of humanity, you are.
 
2013-06-04 04:38:54 PM

vygramul: Oh? What commodity backs it?


Hanukkah Gelt.
 
2013-06-04 04:39:25 PM
My father went to a Libertarian Party convention back in the day, so I'm somewhat familiar with the theories.

I've got one hyper-Libertarian-theorist friend still from my college days... lives in a rural farmstead doing just about nothing but posting on anarchist/liberty sites.  Where I "win" with him (i.e., he shuts up and we just drink a beer) is on environmental issues.

Me: "So, let's say you're spraying arsenic from your smokestack".

Hyper-Libertarian Buddy: "Okay, adjoining property owners can sue you for trespass." (let's ignore his cockamamie theories on privatized courts for a while)

Me: "At what level?  I'm certain someone 50 miles away can find measurable if insignificant arsenic in their air attributable to that polluter.  Can any greenie, almost anywhere, shut down that plant and bring progress basically to its knees?  Can anyone actually sue for trespass?"

HLB: "Well, there has to be some acceptable level."

Me: "Congrats, you've just re-invented government regulation."

HLB: "... fine... do you want a lager or ale?"
 
2013-06-04 04:39:53 PM

Gecko Gingrich: vygramul: Oh? What commodity backs it?

Hanukkah Gelt.


Ha! Good one!
 
2013-06-04 04:40:08 PM

IdBeCrazyIf: studs up: Logic....whatta biatch.

In this context you are using logic out of place, the correct phrase should be

well structured argument....whatta biatch


I stand corrected.
 
2013-06-04 04:40:26 PM

Hydra: Funny how as a linguist he fails even to define what "private tyrannies" are in the first place.


Ha ha, funny! Like the time when the bank teller said I had "two thousand" in my account, but didn't specify if he meant U.S. dollars or moons of Jupiter. Talk about amateur hour!
 
2013-06-04 04:40:45 PM

vygramul: Altair: vygramul: gameshowhost: [i40.tinypic.com image 479x229]
failed libertarian attempt to make their vision of the future sound appealing

If there's one thing that truly seems to defy Libertarian theory it's a love for the ultimate in fiat currency: Bitcoin.

as much as I hate to defend libertarians, I'm not really sure I'd call Bitcoin a fiat currency

Oh? What commodity backs it?


PROCESSING POWER™
 
2013-06-04 04:40:45 PM

gittlebass: yes, lets blame the libertarians who are the people with no power but we'll let the democrats and republicans reign free over this economy they've managed to keep so healthy


The "Tea Party" is your modern Libertarian Party. Yes, they largely have an "R" after their name (though occasionally an "I"), but let us not act as if there are no "Libertarians" in power.
 
2013-06-04 04:41:01 PM

Hydra: Sigh* I'm tired. Watch this and get back to us (granted, it's not really the BEST video in the world, but it covers a fair amount and is a good primer).


There is a sh*t-ton of unnecessary noise happening in this video.

The custom of case law as opposed to legislated regulation? I don't see that as relevant.

His example is equally asinine.

A government regulation enforcing the use of recycled paper for government use. He identifies that such a regulation would be detrimental to Maine, a top producer of paper. However, what he doesn't do at all, is attempt to understand the benefit of enacting such a regulation.

- are there cost savings to using recycled paper?
- are there environmental gains to using recycled paper?
- would the use of recycled paper advance other goals of the federal government?

Nope. None of that. A regulation would be bad for business and is therefore bad.


If that's the best Libertarians can come up with, stick to voting straight Republican, but drop your Libertarian label, you're only fooling yourself.
 
2013-06-04 04:42:05 PM

timujin: Gecko Gingrich: What rhymes with "orange"?

Sporange


Door hinge.

www.diyaroundthehouse.com
 
2013-06-04 04:42:20 PM

studs up: IdBeCrazyIf: studs up: Logic....whatta biatch.

In this context you are using logic out of place, the correct phrase should be

well structured argument....whatta biatch

I stand corrected.


Nit picking I know but pet peeve and all that
 
2013-06-04 04:42:27 PM

ManRay: A question liberals have problems with:

Is there anything that you think is a good idea that the government should not be involved in?


I think a me having a night of hot, steamy sex with Salma Hayek is a very good idea, but I don't see any role for the governmentb in it.
 
2013-06-04 04:42:46 PM

gameshowhost: vygramul: Altair: vygramul: gameshowhost: [i40.tinypic.com image 479x229]
failed libertarian attempt to make their vision of the future sound appealing

If there's one thing that truly seems to defy Libertarian theory it's a love for the ultimate in fiat currency: Bitcoin.

as much as I hate to defend libertarians, I'm not really sure I'd call Bitcoin a fiat currency

Oh? What commodity backs it?

PROCESSING POWER™


technically limitations on processing power ;)
 
2013-06-04 04:43:06 PM

Tigger: TheHighlandHowler: I think many democracies (and republics) are libertarian in their infancies, but as they mature, government grows.  This is partly due to demands from the populace, and politicians' lust for power.

Care to name one?


The US?
 
2013-06-04 04:43:51 PM

Dancin_In_Anson: volunteer firefighter


I think I've asked you this before, but does your VFD have tax authority?  Because every one I've ever lived under (several) either has their own tax district or gets county funding.  People who don't live in VFD areas don't usually understand this distinction.

The firefighters themselves are volunteers (although they do get training paid for and personal equipment allowances).  But they sure as living heck aren't buying half-million-dollar pumper trucks or building firehalls with pass-the-hat donations.
 
2013-06-04 04:44:10 PM
If you people are so passionate about civil liberties, how do you reconcile Goldwater's support of segregation in "The Conscience of a Conservative"?
 
2013-06-04 04:44:12 PM

Darth_Lukecash: Honest Bender: Karac: Just shows how little faith libertarians have in their own ideas.

You're absolutely right.  My faith in libertarianism is insufficient to motivate me to insight an armed revolution.  You caught me.

That's the problem with libertarians. The second you attempt to force your views own someone else, you've already broke your own ideals.

The fact is this, people do not act in everyone's best interest, business do not do the right thing because of long term. People will largely act in self interest.

Thus Libertarians are complete and absolute adolescence of politics.


Libertarians are emos?
 
2013-06-04 04:44:40 PM
By Salon's logic, which boils down to "6.5 billion customers can't be wrong", I can only conclude that the author of TFA thinks that the Big Mac is the world's finest dining, wives should be the property of husbands (still the most popular form of marriage, even the US has tried it in the past!) and Sikhism isn't a real religion (no country has ever been dominated by it!).  Yes, appeal to popularity, totally a great logical argument.

Also, if you sub in the definition, not that they're asking why a plurality-centric party doesn't hold a majority, which is kind of a question that answers itself.

//I'm not saying that Libertarianism is great or even particularly viable, in all frankness it isn't.  I'm just pointing out that Salon's opinion writers are as usual making down syndrome kids look like Mensa candidates.
 
2013-06-04 04:45:08 PM
Pay Pal founder and early Facebook investor Peter Thiel has given $1.25 million to an initiative to create floating libertarian countries in international waters, according to a profile of the billionaire in Details magazine.

Thiel has been a big backer of the Seasteading Institute, which seeks to build sovereign nations on oil rig-like platforms to occupy waters beyond the reach of law-of-the-sea treaties. The idea is for these countries to start from scratch--free from the laws, regulations, and moral codes of any existing place. Details says the experiment would be "a kind of floating petri dish for implementing policies that libertarians, stymied by indifference at the voting booths, have been unable to advance: no welfare, looser building codes, no minimum wage, and few restrictions on weapons."


Good luck on Libertarian Island, dipshiats.
 
2013-06-04 04:45:14 PM

phenn: Tigger: TheHighlandHowler: I think many democracies (and republics) are libertarian in their infancies, but as they mature, government grows.  This is partly due to demands from the populace, and politicians' lust for power.

Care to name one?

The US?


memory.loc.gov
 
2013-06-04 04:45:24 PM
How many times did your grandpa fark Ayn Rand?
 
2013-06-04 04:47:01 PM
What did the Libertarian do when asked a question he couldn't answer?

.....wait for it......


.....wait.....


He shrugged.


/here all week
//tip your veal
 
2013-06-04 04:47:08 PM

tallguywithglasseson: Pay Pal founder and early Facebook investor Peter Thiel has given $1.25 million to an initiative to create floating libertarian countries in international waters, according to a profile of the billionaire in Details magazine.

Thiel has been a big backer of the Seasteading Institute, which seeks to build sovereign nations on oil rig-like platforms to occupy waters beyond the reach of law-of-the-sea treaties. The idea is for these countries to start from scratch--free from the laws, regulations, and moral codes of any existing place. Details says the experiment would be "a kind of floating petri dish for implementing policies that libertarians, stymied by indifference at the voting booths, have been unable to advance: no welfare, looser building codes, no minimum wage, and few restrictions on weapons."

Good luck on Libertarian Island, dipshiats.


i.imgur.com

Better start practicing their CQC, I guess?
 
2013-06-04 04:47:29 PM

gittlebass: yes, lets blame the libertarians who are the people with no power but we'll let the democrats and republicans reign free over this economy they've managed to keep so healthy


Odd how the libertarian notion "laissez-faire" is the driving force that tanked our economy over the past 3+ decades.
 
2013-06-04 04:47:31 PM

tallguywithglasseson: Pay Pal founder and early Facebook investor Peter Thiel has given $1.25 million to an initiative to create floating libertarian countries in international waters, according to a profile of the billionaire in Details magazine.

Thiel has been a big backer of the Seasteading Institute, which seeks to build sovereign nations on oil rig-like platforms to occupy waters beyond the reach of law-of-the-sea treaties. The idea is for these countries to start from scratch--free from the laws, regulations, and moral codes of any existing place. Details says the experiment would be "a kind of floating petri dish for implementing policies that libertarians, stymied by indifference at the voting booths, have been unable to advance: no welfare, looser building codes, no minimum wage, and few restrictions on weapons."

Good luck on Libertarian Island, dipshiats.


loose building codes in the middle of the ocean on floating platforms filled with libertarians?

25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-06-04 04:49:04 PM

gittlebass: yes, lets blame the libertarians who are the people with no power but we'll let the democrats and republicans reign free over this economy they've managed to keep so healthy


One thing we know for sure: the current system is farked. There are mountains of evidence to back that up.
 
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