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(Salon)   The question libertarians just can't answer   (salon.com) divider line 611
    More: Obvious, members of the United Nations, industrial society, advanced countries, political philosophy, infant mortality, open borders, Fraser Institute, economic freedom  
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9970 clicks; posted to Politics » on 04 Jun 2013 at 4:07 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-04 03:44:51 PM  

vygramul: Libertarianism would be easier to endorse if they'd only express some recognition of externalities.


Keep boxing that straw man.

gameshowhost: [i43.tinypic.com image 776x509] 

*brutal truth about libertarians*


You too.

/seriously, quoting Noam Chomsky? Why don't you ask Lenin what he thought about capitalists?
 
2013-06-04 03:45:06 PM  

vygramul: Libertarianism would be easier to endorse if they'd only express some recognition of externalities.


Like the Greens, Libertarianism might be easier to appreciate in its institutional form if they weren't systematically excluded from national media exposure by the Democratic and Republican parties. Don't mention the Constitution Party though. Those people are WACK.
 
2013-06-04 03:45:36 PM  
Libertarian Social Security:

america20xy.com
 
2013-06-04 03:47:21 PM  

gameshowhost: libertarian baby


OK, I'm going to Hell for laughing at that.
 
2013-06-04 03:48:26 PM  

gimmegimme: violentsalvation: Someone named gimmegimme misrepresenting libertarianism. I'll be damned. Couldn't make this shiat up.

Duder, your name is "violentsalvation."  How many strangers have you killed today?


7 or 8. Slow day here in libertarian land, it would've been more but the bridge exploded on my way to the annual tire fire and mercury eating contest. And well, needless to say, it took my slaves a couple hours to float my war wagon across the river of fecal matter and styrofoam.
 
2013-06-04 03:49:12 PM  

Hydra: quoting Noam Chomsky? Why don't you ask Lenin what he thought about capitalists?


Fine. Explain how Dr. Chomsky's description of American-style libertarianism is incorrect? The idea of private tyrannies is quite prevalent among people who otherwise might otherwise be amenable to the topic of Libertarianism. What safeguards exist in the philosophical politics of Libertarianism against the development of "private tyrannies" ?
 
2013-06-04 03:50:42 PM  

violentsalvation: 7 or 8. Slow day here in libertarian land, it would've been more but the bridge exploded on my way to the annual tire fire and mercury eating contest. And well, needless to say, it took my slaves a couple hours to float my war wagon across the river of fecal matter and styrofoam.


i lol'd.
 
2013-06-04 03:51:49 PM  

violentsalvation: gimmegimme: violentsalvation: Someone named gimmegimme misrepresenting libertarianism. I'll be damned. Couldn't make this shiat up.

Duder, your name is "violentsalvation."  How many strangers have you killed today?

7 or 8. Slow day here in libertarian land, it would've been more but the bridge exploded on my way to the annual tire fire and mercury eating contest. And well, needless to say, it took my slaves a couple hours to float my war wagon across the river of fecal matter and styrofoam.


Libertarian Small Claims Court:

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-06-04 03:52:02 PM  
i39.tinypic.com
 
2013-06-04 03:52:20 PM  

BunkoSquad: "What's your girlfriend's name?"


24.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-06-04 03:52:33 PM  

Dancin_In_Anson: Karac: Please, enlighten us then as to the true Libertarianism.

Enlighten yourself.




Okay, I just read that article.

Two things that stand out: that skepticism of government, yet groups of people making decisions are some how better. And somehow libertarians are closer to their communities.

1) the articles of confederation and a Confederation of United States of America are prime historical failures of a decentralized government. Gee that may it be a good business model.

2 you are assuming that the masses will make intelligent decisions. Any local school board will show that this is not true. We have hundreds of them banning classic books, teaching "creationism", enforcing homophobia or cutting classes materials and programs that will hurt development of their kids.

The big difference is that right and the left do care about about their families, friends and community. More so than the libertarians, whom assume people will naturally do the "right" thing.
 
2013-06-04 03:52:45 PM  
Again, I ask, why are regulations automatically bad?

Bad for whom?

Are there any regulations Libertarians support?
 
2013-06-04 03:58:31 PM  
i42.tinypic.com 

libertarian free-market solution
 
2013-06-04 03:59:26 PM  
Why are you calling yourself a libertarian when you're really a neo-confederate?
 
2013-06-04 04:00:20 PM  

Darth_Lukecash: Dancin_In_Anson: Karac: Please, enlighten us then as to the true Libertarianism.

Enlighten yourself.

Okay, I just read that article.

Two things that stand out: that skepticism of government, yet groups of people making decisions are some how better. And somehow libertarians are closer to their communities.

1) the articles of confederation and a Confederation of United States of America are prime historical failures of a decentralized government. Gee that may it be a good business model.

2 you are assuming that the masses will make intelligent decisions. Any local school board will show that this is not true. We have hundreds of them banning classic books, teaching "creationism", enforcing homophobia or cutting classes materials and programs that will hurt development of their kids.

The big difference is that right and the left do care about about their families, friends and community. More so than the libertarians, whom assume people will naturally do the "right" thing.


What I got out of that article was from it's first point: libertarianism is not about blind faith, but it supposes people will work together voluntarily instead of gleefully stabbing each other in the back.
 
2013-06-04 04:00:33 PM  

i.imgur.com
Libertarian Urban Planning
 
2013-06-04 04:00:55 PM  

Hydra: vygramul: Libertarianism would be easier to endorse if they'd only express some recognition of externalities.

Keep boxing that straw man.


Feel free to demonstrate libertarian recognition of externalities. And I don't mean a John Cochrane theoretical discussion of them, either. I'm sure he discusses them in economics classes.
 
2013-06-04 04:01:20 PM  

dittybopper: Karac: Honest Bender: If your approach is so great, why hasn't any country anywhere in the world ever tried it?
Lack of opportunity would be my guess.  You can't just relocate somewhere and declare a new government.   And no government is going to willingly give up power.

Just shows how little faith libertarians have in their own ideas.
Did George Washington let the British unwillingness to give up power stop him from founding the USA?

Interesting that you bring that up:  The USA was pretty damned libertarian when it was founded.  In fact, the Constitution itself is pretty damned libertarian.  *PARTS* of the USA weren't very libertarian, of course, but as a whole, on the federal level, it was largely that way.   It was a big "Fark you, let us run our affairs as we see fit" not just collectively, but also at the individual level.

Unfortunately, nature (and politics) abhors a vacuum, and over time, the pressure to fill that vacuum builds up, and you get more and more regulations.  It is the unfortunate nature of organizations (and government is an organization) to expand as much as they possibly can.




It's not that politics abhors a vacuum. No- it's people will take actions that are detrimental to others individuals and the community. And the number one reason this action take place..."There is no law against it, or says I have to do that"

We are, at our basic instinct, a communal animal.
 
2013-06-04 04:01:44 PM  
farm5.staticflickr.com 

libertarian refreshments
 
2013-06-04 04:02:46 PM  

Rev.K: Again, I ask, why are regulations automatically bad?

Bad for whom?

Are there any regulations Libertarians support?


Yeah.

WE DEMAND YOU PUT US IN POWER.
 
2013-06-04 04:03:40 PM  
THEN ALL SHALL BE PERFECTION.
 
2013-06-04 04:06:57 PM  

Karac: Darth_Lukecash: Dancin_In_Anson: Karac: Please, enlighten us then as to the true Libertarianism.

Enlighten yourself.

Okay, I just read that article.

Two things that stand out: that skepticism of government, yet groups of people making decisions are some how better. And somehow libertarians are closer to their communities.

1) the articles of confederation and a Confederation of United States of America are prime historical failures of a decentralized government. Gee that may it be a good business model.

2 you are assuming that the masses will make intelligent decisions. Any local school board will show that this is not true. We have hundreds of them banning classic books, teaching "creationism", enforcing homophobia or cutting classes materials and programs that will hurt development of their kids.

The big difference is that right and the left do care about about their families, friends and community. More so than the libertarians, whom assume people will naturally do the "right" thing.

What I got out of that article was from it's first point: libertarianism is not about blind faith, but it supposes people will work together voluntarily instead of gleefully stabbing each other in the back.


And this is totally different from the Anarchist belief that without governments people will live in harmony because and furthermore.
 
2013-06-04 04:06:58 PM  

Kittypie070: THEN ALL SHALL BE PERFECTION.


I have a really great GIF somewhere of one adorable puppy knocking over another adorable puppy and the word "libertarianism" is flashing on the screen but I can't find it so use your imagination
 
2013-06-04 04:10:26 PM  
came to see libertarians mocked and ridiculed, leaving satisfied
 
2013-06-04 04:10:42 PM  
Wait, you mean "Being a Nut" hasn't been tried?

Hydra: vygramul: Libertarianism would be easier to endorse if they'd only express some recognition of externalities.

Keep boxing that straw man.

gameshowhost: [i43.tinypic.com image 776x509] 

*brutal truth about libertarians*

You too.

/seriously, quoting Noam Chomsky? Why don't you ask Lenin what he thought about capitalists?


Capitalism is an economic system. Not a system of Government.

If you understood that, you (and the country) would be better off.
 
2013-06-04 04:10:58 PM  
The world favors authoritarianism.

If the solution to a disease involved blood transfusions and the whole world was Jehovah's Witnesses...
 
2013-06-04 04:12:23 PM  

gimmegimme: Dancin_In_Anson: Honest Bender: There seem to be a lot of people who don't understand the difference between libertarians and anarchists.

They're getting better...Almost 2 hours in and no idiotic LOL Somalia yet.

Oh, wait.

sithon: I suggest Somalia is just such a libertarian paradise . No ,bureaucrats ,no law , no red tape, nobody getting into your bidness.

I stand corrected.

By all means, demonstrate why the comparison is improper.


Ad hominem attacks are so much more fun.
 
2013-06-04 04:12:32 PM  

violentsalvation: 7 or 8. Slow day here in libertarian land, it would've been more but the bridge exploded on my way to the annual tire fire and mercury eating contest. And well, needless to say, it took my slaves a couple hours to float my war wagon across the river of fecal matter and styrofoam.


gold jerry, gold
 
2013-06-04 04:14:22 PM  
What's your name? Who's your daddy?
 
2013-06-04 04:14:59 PM  
i1013.photobucket.com
 
2013-06-04 04:15:43 PM  
Part of the problem is that there are a lot of questions Libertarians don't know the answer to, Many of which involve math and/or human psychology.
 
2013-06-04 04:17:01 PM  
Libertarian Criminal justice system.

www.practicaltacticaltraining.com
 
2013-06-04 04:17:03 PM  

Karac: Darth_Lukecash: Dancin_In_Anson: Karac: Please, enlighten us then as to the true Libertarianism.

Enlighten yourself.

Okay, I just read that article.

Two things that stand out: that skepticism of government, yet groups of people making decisions are some how better. And somehow libertarians are closer to their communities.

1) the articles of confederation and a Confederation of United States of America are prime historical failures of a decentralized government. Gee that may it be a good business model.

2 you are assuming that the masses will make intelligent decisions. Any local school board will show that this is not true. We have hundreds of them banning classic books, teaching "creationism", enforcing homophobia or cutting classes materials and programs that will hurt development of their kids.

The big difference is that right and the left do care about about their families, friends and community. More so than the libertarians, whom assume people will naturally do the "right" thing.

What I got out of that article was from it's first point: libertarianism is not about blind faith, but it supposes people will work together voluntarily instead of gleefully stabbing each other in the back.




So yeah, we all gonna sing "Kumbiya, my Lord?" And hold hands? I'm sorry.

James Madison, (husband of the awesome snack cake empresses) said it best ""If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself. A dependence on the people is, no doubt, the primary control on the government; but experience has taught mankind the necessity of auxiliary precautions."
 
2013-06-04 04:17:19 PM  

Rev.K: Again, I ask, why are regulations automatically bad?

Bad for whom?

Are there any regulations Libertarians support?


Depends on which Libertarian you ask. Some Libertarians, in the face of overwhelming historical contradiction, insist the free market is a panacea, and that: corporations that are not transparent would not get any investors; companies who don't put ingredient lists on their products wouldn't be able to make as much money as those who do; that lawsuits will keep companies from poisoning their consumers (but ask a Libertarian what they think about tobacco lawsuits); that restaurants that discriminate against colored folk will make less money than restaurants that do, and so won't do it (despite 100 years of watching that experiment fail).

On the other end of the Libertarian spectrum, which is a little more sane than the Ron Paul types, you have people who recognize that regulations requiring transparency are the only way a free market can actually be free. Some SEC regulations and ingredient labeling come to mind. But even so, there's a limited number of regulations they'd approve.

Many things Libertarians say we should do we actually tried and found that it was not working. The FDA didn't get any real power until the 1930s. Before then lawsuits and competition didn't keep Massengil from killing over 100 people. Sure, they were sued for 100% of their value and that explains why no one has ever heard of them (oh, wait...), but that's not considered very useful for the families of those people.
 
2013-06-04 04:17:41 PM  
All political spectrums are full of shiat

Libertarianism doesnt get a free pass just because I like it. For one to be truly openminded one needs to have an unbiased eye.
 
2013-06-04 04:18:39 PM  
i1055.photobucket.com

Libertarian Instruction Manual
 
2013-06-04 04:20:03 PM  

Girl From The North Country: What's your name? Who's your daddy?


Is he rich like me?
 
2013-06-04 04:20:25 PM  
I think Im going to err on the side of caution and avoid possible time out but just imagine yourself a picture of a dead cat

Libertarian Veterinarian
 
2013-06-04 04:20:43 PM  
Libertarian Public Library

4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-06-04 04:20:57 PM  
ppftt/ librarians can answer any question, they have google to you know.
 
2013-06-04 04:21:30 PM  
Free life lesson 58327.potatoe. Taking any idea to the extreme is foolish.

Regulating everything is bad, regulating nothing is bad.  I could go on for days discussing the inefficiencies that a true libertarian model would impose upon an economy (imagine getting a different AT&T style bill for every single service the government provides you?) but true believers won't listen and everyone else agrees with me already.
 
2013-06-04 04:21:47 PM  

dittybopper: Unfortunately, nature (and politics) abhors a vacuum, and over time, the pressure to fill that vacuum builds up, and you get more and more regulations. It is the unfortunate nature of organizations (and government is an organization) to expand as much as they possibly can.


Yeah, that and the whole Triangle Shirtwaist Factory thing.
 
2013-06-04 04:22:24 PM  
i take nearly the opposite view -- this country was more libertarian in the past and laws evolved to solve specific social and economic issues.

so, yeah -- we tried libertarianism -- it didn't scale -- we aren't perfect now, but answer the question:

when were the laws in the United States to your liking?  1789?  1820?  1860?  1900?  1920? 1930?  1960?  1980?

answer that question and then we can discuss the differences between that time and now, how we got here and what
the reasonable alternatives are.
 
2013-06-04 04:23:02 PM  

Gecko Gingrich: dittybopper: Unfortunately, nature (and politics) abhors a vacuum, and over time, the pressure to fill that vacuum builds up, and you get more and more regulations. It is the unfortunate nature of organizations (and government is an organization) to expand as much as they possibly can.

Yeah, that and the whole Triangle Shirtwaist Factory thing.


No government know-it-all is going to tell me I can't lock the doors of MY factory to keep MY employees inside.
 
2013-06-04 04:23:39 PM  
i40.tinypic.com 

failed libertarian attempt to make their vision of the future sound appealing
 
2013-06-04 04:24:24 PM  
www.ilo.org

Libertarian recreational programs for kids
 
2013-06-04 04:24:59 PM  

Somacandra: Fine. Explain how Dr. Chomsky's description of American-style libertarianism is incorrect? The idea of private tyrannies is quite prevalent among people who otherwise might otherwise be amenable to the topic of Libertarianism. What safeguards exist in the philosophical politics of Libertarianism against the development of "private tyrannies" ?


Funny how as a linguist he fails even to define what "private tyrannies" are in the first place. That being said, I suppose we can deduce that what he really means by the term is a "free-market cartel" or some sort of a "natural" oligopoly or monopoly that emerges as a result of collusion. They drop their prices together below their cost of production to force all other competitors out of the market only to raise them back up and reap monopoly profits. As explained by one libertarian thinker Murray Rothbard here, that was largely a myth - whenever they would try to raise their prices back up, new firms/the older ones that were forced out would enter the market again. Here's a  video from Milton Friedman on the subject and a longer one from Burt Folsom. There are actually some good explanations that are out there - the trick is finding them.

The defining characteristic between "public" and "private" is the ability for a given entity to have legal, legitimate use of force. A private firm CANNOT force anyone to buy its products since it does not procure its own private military and holds guns to everyone's head (Wal-Mart doesn't have its own army). Instead, we have a public defense system in which the legal, legitimatized use of force is given to a special entity called the government. All situations that Chomsky was referring to where corporate interests were enshrined into law through legislation by the government have occurred precisely as a result of his ever-expanding government. Read up on some public choice theory if you want to learn more.

Rev.K: Again, I ask, why are regulations automatically bad?

Bad for whom?

Are there any regulations Libertarians support?


*Sigh* I'm tired. Watch this and get back to us (granted, it's not really the BEST video in the world, but it covers a fair amount and is a good primer).
 
2013-06-04 04:25:09 PM  

DjangoStonereaver: The fact that it was created by Robert Heinlein for STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND, and was never meant
to be taken seriously as an actual political system?


This.

I mean, my political belief system was made up by some white guys in wigs, some muckrakers, some suffragettes and a few safety experts and engineers who said 'let's try paying people a wage that'll let them buy the product and, y'know, not kill them,' but at least it's been play-tested.

/progressive
//used to be liberal, but we seem to need progressives more
///2013 just seems too much like the Gilded Age on repeat
 
2013-06-04 04:26:05 PM  

Hydra: *Sigh* I'm tired. Watch this and get back to us (granted, it's not really the BEST video in the world, but it covers a fair amount and is a good primer).


"us"?  That's not a very libertarian concept, now is it, friend?
 
2013-06-04 04:26:07 PM  
But it is a question that Nazis, Communists, fascists, and militant jihadists can answer with pride!
 
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