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(Scientific American)   This how to eat like a real hunter gatherer, you paleo nutcases   (scientificamerican.com) divider line 64
    More: Interesting, paleo diet, Paleolithic, low blood pressure, Reference Daily Intake, dumpster diving, natural materials, University of Zurich, evolutionary biology  
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8761 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 Jun 2013 at 9:20 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-04 09:24:40 AM  
Named diets are just another form of absolutist thinking and, therefore, are always wrong.
 
2013-06-04 09:25:39 AM  
90% veggies and 10% meat like the !Kung bushmen?
 
2013-06-04 09:26:03 AM  
I'm going to get serious for a minute. Fresh food is an important natural resource. Today we think of food and can't help but think of restaurants where we get pre-packaged food-like meals that come in polystyrene boxes. But in fact there is a whole group of foods that doesn't come in polystyrene. These are called 'paleo-foods' and they are chock full of nutrients and good things like fiber and niacin.

We shouldn't take for granted the fact that food doesn't grow on trees. Hunters have to catch food and package it before it gets to our plates. These hunters are modern day heroes. They do the work that most of us are unwilling to do.

Hunting grounds are becoming smaller and less productive as the need for polystyrene increases. We can take action now to stop or lower our use of polystyrene packaging by deciding not to buy restaurant food. We can instead buy paleo foods.

This is the only world we've got. Let's keep paleo foods around for ourselves and our children.
 
2013-06-04 09:27:16 AM  

skozlaw: Named diets are just another form of absolutist thinking and, therefore, are always wrong.


And we're done here
 
2013-06-04 09:28:22 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: I'm going to get serious for a minute. Fresh food is an important natural resource. Today we think of food and can't help but think of restaurants where we get pre-packaged food-like meals that come in polystyrene boxes. But in fact there is a whole group of foods that doesn't come in polystyrene. These are called 'paleo-foods' and they are chock full of nutrients and good things like fiber and niacin.

We shouldn't take for granted the fact that food doesn't grow on trees. Hunters have to catch food and package it before it gets to our plates. These hunters are modern day heroes. They do the work that most of us are unwilling to do.

Hunting grounds are becoming smaller and less productive as the need for polystyrene increases. We can take action now to stop or lower our use of polystyrene packaging by deciding not to buy restaurant food. We can instead buy paleo foods.

This is the only world we've got. Let's keep paleo foods around for ourselves and our children.

3.bp.blogspot.com

 
2013-06-04 09:28:25 AM  
shanerobert.com
So this is the new model of healthy eating?
 
2013-06-04 09:33:55 AM  

stuhayes2010: AverageAmericanGuy: I'm going to get serious for a minute. Fresh food is an important natural resource. Today we think of food and can't help but think of restaurants where we get pre-packaged food-like meals that come in polystyrene boxes. But in fact there is a whole group of foods that doesn't come in polystyrene. These are called 'paleo-foods' and they are chock full of nutrients and good things like fiber and niacin.

We shouldn't take for granted the fact that food doesn't grow on trees. Hunters have to catch food and package it before it gets to our plates. These hunters are modern day heroes. They do the work that most of us are unwilling to do.

Hunting grounds are becoming smaller and less productive as the need for polystyrene increases. We can take action now to stop or lower our use of polystyrene packaging by deciding not to buy restaurant food. We can instead buy paleo foods.

This is the only world we've got. Let's keep paleo foods around for ourselves and our children.


Here's the real problem.  There are cultural issues at play here that AverageAmericanGuy is pointing out.  Clearly, there's a problem.  It's that no one wants to discuss the elephant in the room.  What do you think can be done about it?
 
2013-06-04 09:35:35 AM  
Guess this really is the perfect time for cloning the mammoth
 
2013-06-04 09:36:03 AM  
Oh Jesus, another scientific pissing match about diet/exercise/fitness.

I switched to a low carb diet and got a FitBit. Without any real effort (aside from adjusting to 10k steps a day of walking), I dropped a large amount of weight (20 pounds in about 6 weeks). I have far more energy. I sleep better. I'm a far happier individual that I've ever been.

Both of these changes were driven by the fact that I saw *lots* of other people having tremendous success doing something similar. People stop eating the standard American diet of 300g of carbs a day and, within a couple of weeks (and that can be a tough couple of weeks for some folks), they start dropping a tremendous amount of fat, feel better and their bloodwork typically shows tremendously positive changes.

All these nutrition scientists can stuff it. I don't know a single person who was out of shape and switched to a low carb/paleo diet who hasn't seen great results across the board.
 
2013-06-04 09:37:57 AM  
Why stop at neanderthals?  Why not try the homo erectus diet: any overripe fruit that splats down from the trees, and all the carcases you can scavenge after the carnivores are done with them.
 
2013-06-04 09:42:13 AM  
 
2013-06-04 09:43:02 AM  

Molavian: stuhayes2010: AverageAmericanGuy: I'm going to get serious for a minute. Fresh food is an important natural resource. Today we think of food and can't help but think of restaurants where we get pre-packaged food-like meals that come in polystyrene boxes. But in fact there is a whole group of foods that doesn't come in polystyrene. These are called 'paleo-foods' and they are chock full of nutrients and good things like fiber and niacin.

We shouldn't take for granted the fact that food doesn't grow on trees. Hunters have to catch food and package it before it gets to our plates. These hunters are modern day heroes. They do the work that most of us are unwilling to do.

Hunting grounds are becoming smaller and less productive as the need for polystyrene increases. We can take action now to stop or lower our use of polystyrene packaging by deciding not to buy restaurant food. We can instead buy paleo foods.

This is the only world we've got. Let's keep paleo foods around for ourselves and our children.

Here's the real problem.  There are cultural issues at play here that AverageAmericanGuy is pointing out.  Clearly, there's a problem.  It's that no one wants to discuss the elephant in the room.  What do you think can be done about it?


The best solution would be for humans to develop a gene that allows us to consume and digest polystyrene.
 
2013-06-04 09:47:08 AM  

dr-shotgun: I don't know a single person who was out of shape and switched to a low carb/paleo diet who hasn't seen great results across the board.


Going from eating "way too many carbs" to "a normal amount of carbs" is not a "low carb diet".

Regardless, the complaint about paleo nutjobs isn't generally that what they're doing is probably wrong in any major way, it's the insistence from some of the more vocal members that they've keyed into some amazing new thing that nobody ever thought of before, or that their "diet" is in any way particularly special.

Congratulations. You figured out that eating fresh vegetables and meats is much better for you than eating fast food and Swanson frozen dinners all day. What wonderfully genius people you must all be...

Out of all of the dimwitted fad diets that are constantly coming and going this one is probably the least offensively stupid by a long shot that I've seen, but let's not pretend that the part that makes it work is anything more amazing than "eat fresh vegetables and meat" which is the basic gist of what everybody from (credible) nutrition scientists to everybody's mom has been saying since ever.
 
2013-06-04 09:55:14 AM  

skozlaw: dr-shotgun: I don't know a single person who was out of shape and switched to a low carb/paleo diet who hasn't seen great results across the board.

Going from eating "way too many carbs" to "a normal amount of carbs" is not a "low carb diet".

Regardless, the complaint about paleo nutjobs isn't generally that what they're doing is probably wrong in any major way, it's the insistence from some of the more vocal members that they've keyed into some amazing new thing that nobody ever thought of before, or that their "diet" is in any way particularly special.

Congratulations. You figured out that eating fresh vegetables and meats is much better for you than eating fast food and Swanson frozen dinners all day. What wonderfully genius people you must all be...

Out of all of the dimwitted fad diets that are constantly coming and going this one is probably the least offensively stupid by a long shot that I've seen, but let's not pretend that the part that makes it work is anything more amazing than "eat fresh vegetables and meat" which is the basic gist of what everybody from (credible) nutrition scientists to everybody's mom has been saying since ever.


exactly. Try just eating whole grains instead of er.. white grains? processed grains?. Its like low-carb, because you want to eat less cause you're fuller, AND you still get all the wonderful nutrients from grains that we humans need.
 
2013-06-04 09:55:38 AM  
Out of all of the dimwitted fad diets that are constantly coming and going this one is probably the least offensively stupid by a long shot that I've seen, but let's not pretend that the part that makes it work is anything more amazing than "eat fresh vegetables and meat" which is the basic gist of what everybody from (credible) nutrition scientists to everybody's mom has been saying since ever.

Except that's not at all what nutrition scientists have been saying, ever.  We've been told for fifty years to get the bulk of our calories from carbs.  The entire base of the food pyramid is nothing but white starches.  The new "plate" guideline is only a tiny bit better.  The overall message from nutritionists to eat tons of carbs everyday is wrong, and the general public is finally starting to figure that out.
 
2013-06-04 09:58:48 AM  
exactly. Try just eating whole grains instead of er.. white grains? processed grains?. Its like low-carb, because you want to eat less cause you're fuller, AND you still get all the wonderful nutrients from grains that we humans need.

Whole grains are still nothing but sugar once your body breaks it down.  Whole grains have a bit more fiber, that's all.

If you are overweight you don't need to stuff sugar in your mouth, in any form.
 
2013-06-04 09:59:35 AM  
skozlaw:Out of all of the dimwitted fad diets that are constantly coming and going this one is probably the least offensively stupid by a long shot that I've seen, but let's not pretend that the part that makes it work is anything more amazing than "eat fresh vegetables and meat" which is the basic gist of what everybody from (credible) nutrition scientists to everybody's mom has been saying since ever.

Funny, because the food pyramid seems to think the bulk of our diet should be carbs:

www.foodpyramid.com
 
2013-06-04 10:03:37 AM  

dr-shotgun: Oh Jesus, another scientific pissing match about diet/exercise/fitness.

I switched to a low carb diet and got a FitBit. Without any real effort (aside from adjusting to 10k steps a day of walking), I dropped a large amount of weight (20 pounds in about 6 weeks). I have far more energy. I sleep better. I'm a far happier individual that I've ever been.

Both of these changes were driven by the fact that I saw *lots* of other people having tremendous success doing something similar. People stop eating the standard American diet of 300g of carbs a day and, within a couple of weeks (and that can be a tough couple of weeks for some folks), they start dropping a tremendous amount of fat, feel better and their bloodwork typically shows tremendously positive changes.

All these nutrition scientists can stuff it. I don't know a single person who was out of shape and switched to a low carb/paleo diet who hasn't seen great results across the board.


The "American diet" you refer to is called "being a fatass." Counting calories and walking miles a day is what changed for you, not the fad diet. Fad diets don't actually do anything on their own, because you just end up eating the same amounts of different foods. It's a ton of feathers versus a ton of gold.
 
2013-06-04 10:11:57 AM  

Lady Beryl Ersatz-Wendigo: Molavian: stuhayes2010: AverageAmericanGuy: I'm going to get serious for a minute. Fresh food is an important natural resource. Today we think of food and can't help but think of restaurants where we get pre-packaged food-like meals that come in polystyrene boxes. But in fact there is a whole group of foods that doesn't come in polystyrene. These are called 'paleo-foods' and they are chock full of nutrients and good things like fiber and niacin.

We shouldn't take for granted the fact that food doesn't grow on trees. Hunters have to catch food and package it before it gets to our plates. These hunters are modern day heroes. They do the work that most of us are unwilling to do.

Hunting grounds are becoming smaller and less productive as the need for polystyrene increases. We can take action now to stop or lower our use of polystyrene packaging by deciding not to buy restaurant food. We can instead buy paleo foods.

This is the only world we've got. Let's keep paleo foods around for ourselves and our children.

Here's the real problem.  There are cultural issues at play here that AverageAmericanGuy is pointing out.  Clearly, there's a problem.  It's that no one wants to discuss the elephant in the room.  What do you think can be done about it?

The best solution would be for humans to develop a gene that allows us to consume and digest polystyrene.


The People of Sand and Slag can do just that.
 
2013-06-04 10:19:10 AM  

Anita Bonghit: exactly. Try just eating whole grains instead of er.. white grains? processed grains?. Its like low-carb, because you want to eat less cause you're fuller, AND you still get all the wonderful nutrients from grains that we humans need.

Whole grains are still nothing but sugar once your body breaks it down.  Whole grains have a bit more fiber, that's all.

If you are overweight you don't need to stuff sugar in your mouth, in any form.


Conflating bread with sugar doesn't make any sense. Don't call glucose sugar, it's just confuses things. Glucose is a kind of sugar.
 
2013-06-04 10:19:24 AM  

moothemagiccow: dr-shotgun: Oh Jesus, another scientific pissing match about diet/exercise/fitness.

I switched to a low carb diet and got a FitBit. Without any real effort (aside from adjusting to 10k steps a day of walking), I dropped a large amount of weight (20 pounds in about 6 weeks). I have far more energy. I sleep better. I'm a far happier individual that I've ever been.

Both of these changes were driven by the fact that I saw *lots* of other people having tremendous success doing something similar. People stop eating the standard American diet of 300g of carbs a day and, within a couple of weeks (and that can be a tough couple of weeks for some folks), they start dropping a tremendous amount of fat, feel better and their bloodwork typically shows tremendously positive changes.

All these nutrition scientists can stuff it. I don't know a single person who was out of shape and switched to a low carb/paleo diet who hasn't seen great results across the board.

The "American diet" you refer to is called "being a fatass." Counting calories and walking miles a day is what changed for you, not the fad diet. Fad diets don't actually do anything on their own, because you just end up eating the same amounts of different foods. It's a ton of feathers versus a ton of gold.


Your body and metabolism are more complicated than an internal combustion engine. Different foods have a different effect. It really is more complicated than calories in - calories expended through exercise.
 
2013-06-04 10:27:49 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: Hunting grounds are becoming smaller and less productive as the need for polystyrene increases.


Don't worry. Hunters have gotten better at nurturing polystyrene reserves, hunting polystyrene in new grounds, and transporting increasing amounts of polystyrene on the hoods of their cars.
 
2013-06-04 10:28:00 AM  

dr-shotgun: Funny, because the food pyramid seems to think the bulk of our diet should be carbs:


Because it should be, primarily in the form of vegetables and whole grains.

Why, are you implying that what you've actually decided to do is eat a high-fat, high-protein diet? If so, I'd like to rescind my prior comments about the general sensibility of your behavior and drastically alter them.

/ carbs, why would I need carbs for anything? They're only the fundamental source for glucose, the only thing that brain cells can actually use for energacycnc flafc,4w4 32 c
// the lack of carbs explains an awful lot about Atkins adherents, though
 
2013-06-04 10:30:46 AM  
I can do a paleo diet when they pry the mozarrella from my cold dead fingers.
 
2013-06-04 10:34:37 AM  
This is why I only eat Soylent Green. Since it's made of people you know it has 100% of the nutrients that a body needs.
 
2013-06-04 10:36:50 AM  

El Dudereno: moothemagiccow: dr-shotgun: Oh Jesus, another scientific pissing match about diet/exercise/fitness.

I switched to a low carb diet and got a FitBit. Without any real effort (aside from adjusting to 10k steps a day of walking), I dropped a large amount of weight (20 pounds in about 6 weeks). I have far more energy. I sleep better. I'm a far happier individual that I've ever been.

Both of these changes were driven by the fact that I saw *lots* of other people having tremendous success doing something similar. People stop eating the standard American diet of 300g of carbs a day and, within a couple of weeks (and that can be a tough couple of weeks for some folks), they start dropping a tremendous amount of fat, feel better and their bloodwork typically shows tremendously positive changes.

All these nutrition scientists can stuff it. I don't know a single person who was out of shape and switched to a low carb/paleo diet who hasn't seen great results across the board.

The "American diet" you refer to is called "being a fatass." Counting calories and walking miles a day is what changed for you, not the fad diet. Fad diets don't actually do anything on their own, because you just end up eating the same amounts of different foods. It's a ton of feathers versus a ton of gold.

Your body and metabolism are more complicated than an internal combustion engine. Different foods have a different effect. It really is more complicated than calories in - calories expended through exercise.


Yes, and that's why paying attention to what you eat is more complicated than not eating bread and noodles.
Dr shotgun is talking straight up weight loss, and I'm saying changing which foods you eat doesn't mean you're going to lose weight. I knew a guy who became vegetarian to lose weight but thought ordering six bean burritos at taco bell was a good idea for a meal. As long as calories in greatly exceeds calories expended, it doesn't matter what you're eating.
 
2013-06-04 10:37:19 AM  

To The Escape Zeppelin!: This is why I only eat Soylent Green. Since it's made of people you know it has 100% of the nutrients that a body needs.


Yea but the people you're eating weren't eating good things.

When you eat somebody in the form of Soylent Green, you're eating every moon pie they ever ate. You think about that young man.
 
2013-06-04 10:39:59 AM  

moothemagiccow: Anita Bonghit: exactly. Try just eating whole grains instead of er.. white grains? processed grains?. Its like low-carb, because you want to eat less cause you're fuller, AND you still get all the wonderful nutrients from grains that we humans need.

Whole grains are still nothing but sugar once your body breaks it down.  Whole grains have a bit more fiber, that's all.

If you are overweight you don't need to stuff sugar in your mouth, in any form.

Conflating bread with sugar doesn't make any sense. Don't call glucose sugar, it's just confuses things. Glucose is a kind of sugar.


Your body doesn't know the difference, it all breaks down into the same thing.

If you are overweight you don't need to eat bread or sugar or grains at all.  Your "gas tank" is already full of stored fuel.
 
2013-06-04 10:41:38 AM  
There are a few, erm *LOGIC* issues with the article.  This is just an example:

The Hiwi are not particularly healthy. Compared to the Ache, a hunter-gatherer tribe in Paraguay, the Hiwi are shorter, thinner, more lethargic and less well nourished. Hiwi men and women of all ages constantly complain of hunger. Many Hiwi are heavily infected with parasitic hookworms, which burrow into the small intestine and feed on blood.

So, we've got the argument going that a hunter-gatherer lifestyle isn't particularly healthy, because one tribe of hunter-gatherers isn't as healthy as a different tribe in another area?

Also, the hookworm infestation might just have a wee bit to do with why they aren't necessarily as healthy as they could be.  That's not informative about their diet, though:  Hookworm infestation comes from poor sanitation practices, not from eating plants and animals in a hunter-gatherer lifestyle, and in fact it's more likely to be the result of agriculture, as the use of human waste as fertilizer can spread it.

There are other logical fallacies displayed:

 If we compare the diets of so-called modern hunter-gatherers, however, we see just how difficult it is to find meaningful commonalities and extract useful dietary guidelines from their disparate lives (see infographic).

 www.scientificamerican.com

You know what I don't see a lot of in that infographic?  Processed grains and sugars.  Of the diets shown, only one (the !Kung*), has a very small percentage of processed grain (corn meal).

That's really the core of the paleo diet:  Avoiding things made from processed grains and sugars.  Granted, you can't exactly replicate the hunter-gatherer diet in modern society without actually becoming a hunter-gatherer, but you can hew to the basic principles.  Avoid processed grains and sugar.  Eat vegetables, fruits, nuts, seeds, lean meats and fish.  Avoid highly processed versions of those foods.

Here is another fallacy in the article:

A recent study in The Lancet looked for signs of atherosclerosis-arteries clogged with cholesterol and fats-in more than one hundred ancient mummies from societies of farmers, foragers and hunter-gatherers around the world, including Egypt, Peru, the southwestern U.S and the Aleutian Islands. "A common assumption is that atherosclerosis is predominately lifestyle-related, and that if modern human beings could emulate preindustrial or even preagricultural lifestyles, that atherosclerosis, or least its clinical manifestations, would be avoided," the researchers wrote. But they found evidence of probable or definite atherosclerosis in 47 of 137 mummies from each of the different geographical regions.

Farming implies grains, and processed grains are the problem that we are talking about.  Note that they don't separate the categories of farmers from hunter-gatherers, and thus they are conflating the two in that  paragraph, and then implying that there aren't really any benefits because hunter-gatherers got atherosclerosis too!  But we don't know that from what they said.

I also checked the link, and these are the actual results from The Lancet article:

FINDINGS:
Probable or definite atherosclerosis was noted in 47 (34%) of 137 mummies and in all four geographical populations: 29 (38%) of 76 ancient Egyptians, 13 (25%) of 51 ancient Peruvians, two (40%) of five Ancestral Puebloans, and three (60%) of five Unangan hunter gatherers (p=NS)


Ancient Egyptians, Peruvians, and Puebloans were all farming societies that depended heavily on grains (Wheat in Egypt, potatoes and corn in Peru, and corn for the Pueblo Indians).  Only 3.6% of the individuals they studied were hunter-gatherers, and those were Aleuts.

That high percentage for the Aleuts (60%) is likely an artifact of the small sample size (5), given that modern Aleuts who still largely eat a traditional diet have lower levels of atherosclerosis than Alaskans that eat a more modern diet.  *NEVER* trust a percentage based upon a sample size that small.  Just adding or subtracting a single case would result in a fluctuation of 20%.

Also, it's not informative about the genetics.   Some people are more genetically predisposed to atherosclerosis, and as a group the Unangan Aleuts may have been more predisposed to it than other groups of hunter-gatherers.


*I love pronouncing the name, because of the tongue click.
 
2013-06-04 10:46:19 AM  
TLDR version: "Paleo nutcases are wrong about everything, although what they're saying about cutting processed foods in favor of stuff our bodies understand how to use is correct, but they're still completely wrong because things they're not saying aren't true."


skozlaw
Regardless, the complaint about paleo nutjobs isn't generally that what they're doing is probably wrong in any major way, it's the insistence from some of the more vocal members that they've keyed into some amazing new thing that nobody ever thought of before, or that their "diet" is in any way particularly special.

Congratulations. You figured out that eating fresh vegetables and meats is much better for you than eating fast food and Swanson frozen dinners all day. What wonderfully genius people you must all be...


The difference is that there's a reason that makes sense. "Eat this way because it's what your body is built for" rather than "Eat this way because scientists say so".
 
2013-06-04 10:48:47 AM  
This how
 
2013-06-04 10:50:29 AM  

dittybopper: So, we've got the argument going that a hunter-gatherer lifestyle isn't particularly healthy, because one tribe of hunter-gatherers isn't as healthy as a different tribe in another area?


Or you could try using some basic critical thinking skills for once in your life and come to the actual conclusion instead of some nonsense so that you just made up to be biatchy about something you didn't want to hear. That there is no singular "hunter gatherer" upon which you can base some generalized dietary guideline for all people nor is there any evidence that any particular hunter gatherer society is particularly healthy all across the board since each suffers from its own particular ailments as a result of differences in the availability of nutrition and the method of its acquisition.

But, by all means, show me all the people who are running around saying they're on the "Hiwi diet" specifically.
 
2013-06-04 10:54:05 AM  

RanDomino: The difference is that there's a reason that makes sense.


No, there's not. There is absolutely no evidence that you should eat that way just because some barely-related individual from your general family line did 10,000 years ago. If that inherently made sense then it would also inherently make sense for you to go live in a cave, eschew basic medical care and stop bathing.

There is some reason to believe it might be true. There is no inherent reason it should be, though.

RanDomino: "Eat this way because scientists say so".


Yea, fark those guys and their knowledge and all the progress their rigid processes have brought us in the last 250 years.

And what's the deal with magnets, anyway? They're makin' me mad.
 
2013-06-04 10:54:46 AM  
I think the best thing you could get out of that fad diet is "cut down on the highly processed food"

The diet has the effect of replacing the american diet of super carbs and vauge meats with allot more whole grain and meat that is relatively unprocessed. Its one of those things where some people jhust dont get that the chips and dip are not an everyday food. This diet rocks for fatties.

Cook your own food more often and try to eat foods that didnt require an industrial plant to create.

And breaking the rules once in a while is how your SUPPOSED to do it -- nobody is perfect and trying to eat the 'right' way every day is likely just packing more stress (bad) into your body.

Put down the bag of cheetos.

Also unless you are working like a ditch digger beer will ruin your figure. the solution is not to cut out beer but to work out way more. Cut out beer on a cold day in hell.
 
2013-06-04 10:55:24 AM  

dittybopper: There are a few, erm *LOGIC* issues with the article


Wow.  a well thought out logical response that didn't degenerate into name calling or politics.  What the hell are you doing reading FARK?  Nicely done.
 
2013-06-04 11:04:13 AM  

Anita Bonghit: moothemagiccow: Anita Bonghit: exactly. Try just eating whole grains instead of er.. white grains? processed grains?. Its like low-carb, because you want to eat less cause you're fuller, AND you still get all the wonderful nutrients from grains that we humans need.

Whole grains are still nothing but sugar once your body breaks it down.  Whole grains have a bit more fiber, that's all.

If you are overweight you don't need to stuff sugar in your mouth, in any form.

Conflating bread with sugar doesn't make any sense. Don't call glucose sugar, it's just confuses things. Glucose is a kind of sugar.

Your body doesn't know the difference, it all breaks down into the same thing.

If you are overweight you don't need to eat bread or sugar or grains at all.  Your "gas tank" is already full of stored fuel.


Um, no.
 
2013-06-04 11:10:46 AM  

skozlaw: No, there's not. There is absolutely no evidence that you should eat that way just because some barely-related individual from your general family line did 10,000 years ago. If that inherently made sense then it would also inherently make sense for you to go live in a cave, eschew basic medical care and

stop bathing.

Interesting note -- bathing is incredibly important -- but washing your hair is not. It will be gross and greasy looking for awhile but if you brush it every day the oils from your scalp will protect it., Rinse it out whenevery you want but shampooing your hair every day is not exactly thebest thing for it. It wont dread up if you brush it and if you rinse it every time you have a shower its not going to get funky.

And its interesting to note that they go on about how dairy is a no no -- but europeans have adapted to consuming a higher level of sugar and a higher level of dairy... If you have European heritage your ancestors have likely been drinking milk for thousands and thousands of years. Eat that cheese and drink that milk. Have that danish -- Just moderate yourself a bit and go do some push-ups.

Its one thing to eat that stuff and be sedentary -- You can plow down huge amounts of carbs if you keep your body moving. And eat that dairy -- the less you consume dairy the worse your body gets at processing it.
 
2013-06-04 11:14:17 AM  

Lady Beryl Ersatz-Wendigo: The best solution would be for humans to develop a gene that allows us to consume and digest polystyrene.


It's been done:

"Our old mess sergeant's taste buds
had been shot off in the war
but his savory collations
add to our esprit de corps
To think of all the marvelous ways
they're using plastics nowadays
It makes a fellow proud to be a soldier".

-Tom Lehrer.
 
2013-06-04 11:15:51 AM  
skozlaw
No, there's not. There is absolutely no evidence that you should eat that way just because some barely-related individual from your general family line did 10,000 years ago. If that inherently made sense then it would also inherently make sense for you to go live in a cave, eschew basic medical care and stop bathing.

I said that it "makes sense" not that there's "evidence". Both are necessary if you want people to change how they do something. It makes sense that our bodies are more used to how we were eating for hundreds of thousands of years rather than how we've been eating for the past few thousand (or even hundred) years of relatively rapid dietary change.

Yea, fark those guys and their knowledge and all the progress their rigid processes have brought us in the last 250 years.

It's not about whether or not it's right, but the "because I said so" authoritarianism. People HATE being given opaque orders.
 
2013-06-04 11:21:43 AM  

skozlaw: dittybopper: So, we've got the argument going that a hunter-gatherer lifestyle isn't particularly healthy, because one tribe of hunter-gatherers isn't as healthy as a different tribe in another area?

Or you could try using some basic critical thinking skills for once in your life and come to the actual conclusion instead of some nonsense so that you just made up to be biatchy about something you didn't want to hear. That there is no singular "hunter gatherer" upon which you can base some generalized dietary guideline for all people nor is there any evidence that any particular hunter gatherer society is particularly healthy all across the board since each suffers from its own particular ailments as a result of differences in the availability of nutrition and the method of its acquisition.

But, by all means, show me all the people who are running around saying they're on the "Hiwi diet" specifically.


I happen to think my comment that you quoted is a cogent and correct criticism of the part of the article in question.   TFA goes into extensive detail about the Hiwi, and how unhealthy they are as evidence that paleo diets aren't good, but skims over the fact that other hunter-gatherers in the same part of the World are healthier, and they handwave the hookworm infestation, which isn't directly related to the diet:  You get hookworm from contact with infected feces.  Any person with severe, untreated hookworm infestation is going to have health problems, regardless of their diet.
 
2013-06-04 12:30:19 PM  
I'm a fan of the paleo diet myself!!!

www.gorillanaut.com
 
2013-06-04 12:32:21 PM  

skozlaw: Named diets are just another form of absolutist thinking and, therefore, are always wrong.


Ah.  But, of course, YOUR absolutist statement is perfectly fine.
 
2013-06-04 12:50:03 PM  
Good idea, emulate the diet of a group of people whose life expectancy was 40 years old.
 
2013-06-04 01:04:23 PM  

skozlaw: dr-shotgun: Funny, because the food pyramid seems to think the bulk of our diet should be carbs:

Because it should be, primarily in the form of vegetables and whole grains.

Why, are you implying that what you've actually decided to do is eat a high-fat, high-protein diet? If so, I'd like to rescind my prior comments about the general sensibility of your behavior and drastically alter them.

/ carbs, why would I need carbs for anything? They're only the fundamental source for glucose, the only thing that brain cells can actually use for energacycnc flafc,4w4 32 c
// the lack of carbs explains an awful lot about Atkins adherents, though


Ketones, how do they farking work?
 
2013-06-04 01:29:03 PM  

Jster422: skozlaw: Named diets are just another form of absolutist thinking and, therefore, are always wrong.

Ah.  But, of course, YOUR absolutist statement is perfectly fine.


www.planetcalypsoforum.com

dittybopper: TFA goes into extensive detail about the Hiwi, and how unhealthy they are as evidence that paleo diets aren't good


You know who probably had a lot of problems with feces-contaminated foods? And what kinds of foods are often easily contaminated by feces?

Why do you get to pick and choose and say "well, this part is good, this part is bad" like that? If living like a caveman is so healthy, go do it. If you're going to pick and choose which bits were healthy and which weren't, why would you exclude so many modern healthful options like whole grains or safely packaged foods rich in whole grains and fiber or vegetables that have been irradiated for sanitary purposes? If you can't eat them because hey, cavemen didn't, well, guess what you're going to be at increased risk of eating just like cavemen were?

It's actually very simple and the article could have been cut down to only two sentences: "Paleo adherents have no actual evidence for their arbitrary claims and are just operating on assumptions that sound good off the cuff but have no real substance once you stop and think about what's been said. If you care about making evidence-based decisions you should simply ignore them".

The paleo diet, like all the fad diets before, is nothing but snakeoil aimed at people who are too lazy and ignorant to put any effort into planning common sense meals and developing reasonable eating habits. Fortunately, this one at least doesn't seem like it will be outright destructive to people's health like some of the others before it have been.
 
2013-06-04 01:34:21 PM  

El Dudereno: Ketones, how do they farking work?


Poorly.
 
2013-06-04 01:34:45 PM  

skozlaw: El Dudereno: Ketones, how do they farking work?

Poorly.


They work great for Epileptics, though.
 
2013-06-04 01:37:36 PM  

skozlaw: You know who probably had a lot of problems with feces-contaminated foods? And what kinds of foods are often easily contaminated by feces?


It's not from *FOOD* contaminated by feces:

Hookworm life cycle
Infection of the host is by the larvae, not the eggs. While A. duodenale can be ingested, the usual method of infection is through the skin; this is commonly caused by walking barefoot through areas contaminated with fecal matter. The larvae are able to penetrate the skin of the foot, and once inside the body, they migrate through the vascular system to the lungs, and from there up the trachea, and are swallowed. They then pass down the esophagus and enter the digestive system, finishing their journey in the intestine, where the larvae mature into adult worms.

Got nothing to do with this food or that food, and everything to do with sanitation, though I will point out that farmers who use human waste as fertilizer would be at much greater risk of contracting hookworm than a hunter-gatherer would be.
 
2013-06-04 01:48:28 PM  

skozlaw: Jster422: skozlaw: Named diets are just another form of absolutist thinking and, therefore, are always wrong.

Ah.  But, of course, YOUR absolutist statement is perfectly fine.

[www.planetcalypsoforum.com image 452x339]

dittybopper: TFA goes into extensive detail about the Hiwi, and how unhealthy they are as evidence that paleo diets aren't good

You know who probably had a lot of problems with feces-contaminated foods? And what kinds of foods are often easily contaminated by feces?

Why do you get to pick and choose and say "well, this part is good, this part is bad" like that? If living like a caveman is so healthy, go do it. If you're going to pick and choose which bits were healthy and which weren't, why would you exclude so many modern healthful options like whole grains or safely packaged foods rich in whole grains and fiber or vegetables that have been irradiated for sanitary purposes? If you can't eat them because hey, cavemen didn't, well, guess what you're going to be at increased risk of eating just like cavemen were?

It's actually very simple and the article could have been cut down to only two sentences: "Paleo adherents have no actual evidence for their arbitrary claims and are just operating on assumptions that sound good off the cuff but have no real substance once you stop and think about what's been said. If you care about making evidence-based decisions you should simply ignore them".

The paleo diet, like all the fad diets before, is nothing but snakeoil aimed at people who are too lazy and ignorant to put any effort into planning common sense meals and developing reasonable eating habits. Fortunately, this one at least doesn't seem like it will be outright destructive to people's health like some of the others before it have been.


See, I assumed you were kidding - except that then for the remainder of the thread you've been emphasizing the above.  However at the same time you say things like -

Congratulations. You figured out that eating fresh vegetables and meats is much better for you than eating fast food and Swanson frozen dinners all day. What wonderfully genius people you must all be...

Out of all of the dimwitted fad diets that are constantly coming and going this one is probably the least offensively stupid by a long shot that I've seen, but let's not pretend that the part that makes it work is anything more amazing than "eat fresh vegetables and meat" which is the basic gist of what everybody from (credible) nutrition scientists to everybody's mom has been saying since ever.


So which is it?  To clarify - 'Snakeoil' generally refers to a product that is useless and/or does not deliver the advertised results.  You seem to agree that the Paleo diet does deliver, but just take issue with the fact that people are then happy about it.
 
2013-06-04 01:58:48 PM  

dittybopper: It's not from *FOOD* contaminated by feces:


Ancylostoma duodenale is spread primarily via food and water contamination and exists in S. America.

Regardless, your continued harping on this is just noise to detract from the larger point made in that paragraph: that the Hiwi, a group of modern-day hunter-gatherers, are not particularly healthy people, so where's this claim coming from that they're lifestyle, including their diet, was somehow healthier than our own?

Where's the evidence? You got a group of people here who are lucky to hit 20, why the hell are you looking to them for clues on longevity?

dittybopper: and everything to do with sanitation


Like irradiation. Which you can't use because "cavemen didn't have it".

dittybopper: though I will point out that farmers who use human waste as fertilizer would be at much greater risk of contracting hookworm than a hunter-gatherer would be.


I seriously doubt you have any evidence to support any such claim in any broadly meaningful way. Human waste fertilizer has been heavily processed for that exact reason, among others.
 
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