If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(WTSP)   Florida DOT changes rules so only 15% of drivers won't be able to stop in time to avoid red light cameras   (origin.wtsp.com) divider line 106
    More: Followup, florida, red light cameras, camera intersections  
•       •       •

10841 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Jun 2013 at 8:07 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



106 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Last | Show all
 
2013-06-03 08:12:29 PM
So... only one one standard deviation from the mean?
 
2013-06-03 08:14:02 PM
Previously, engineers were using 1.0 seconds in their yellow light equations.

Wait, that is the length of time a player has in most MMOs like WoW etc to react. I doubt that most Florida drivers have the reaction times of MMO players.
 
2013-06-03 08:16:51 PM
As an FDOT employee, yeah this was a big stink, but.......

....what most people don't realize is, FDOT does not actually control any signals. This is all done at the county/city level, and ultimately, they're the ones making the decisions, which in some cases may be about the $$$. FDOT just creates the guidelines for the locals to follow.
 
2013-06-03 08:20:56 PM
FTFA:  Florida's new minimums for yellow lights will be closer to federal safety suggestions:

...but still not quite there. Why don't they just adopt the federal safety suggestions and be done with it?
 
2013-06-03 08:21:52 PM
So, it has to be cut to the absolute minimum for reaction time, instead of giving a generous amount of time to stop safely?

I hate that they don't even try to pretend it's about safety anymore, yet the people just take it. We really are becoming a nation of sheep.
 
2013-06-03 08:22:56 PM
This is a lesson that apparently everyone whose area puts in red light cameras  has to learn: the people running these systems -- by which I mean the politicians and the system operators -- are crooked, money-sucking scumbags. They'll shorten yellow light times, put them in intersections that have little history of collisions due to red light running, and they'll even violate the law when issuing tickets. San Diego found  this out the hard way a bunch of years ago. They did all of the above. My favorite was when the sworn cop who was supposed to "review" the citations before they went out took a vacation, and before he left he signed a bunch of blank citations so that  the system operator could issue them in his absense. So much for review and following the law. My second favorite part was when some people contesting the tickets in court, and who subpoenaed the technical details of the camera system, were threatened by the system operator with lawsuits for attempting to infringe on "trade secrets".

Anyone proposing a red right camera system in your area should be ridden out of town on a bed of soiled diapers.
 
2013-06-03 08:23:28 PM

jack21221: FTFA:  Florida's new minimums for yellow lights will be closer to federal safety suggestions:

...but still not quite there. Why don't they just adopt the federal safety suggestions and be done with it?


Asked about this very thing, the overpaid seat warmers responded with "Oink. Snort, Grunt, Squeal."
 
2013-06-03 08:24:29 PM

thomasvista: As an FDOT employee, yeah this was a big stink, but.......

....what most people don't realize is, FDOT does not actually control any signals. This is all done at the county/city level, and ultimately, they're the ones making the decisions, which in some cases may be about the $$$. FDOT just creates the guidelines for the locals to follow.


Deliberately timing lights to cause violations should be illegal, punishable with jail time and lifetime ineligibility to hold government jobs.
 
2013-06-03 08:24:57 PM

jack21221: FTFA:  Florida's new minimums for yellow lights will be closer to federal safety suggestions:

...but still not quite there. Why don't they just adopt the federal safety suggestions and be done with it?


FDOT likes to make it's so-called "standards" above what the feds require, since we have a large elderly population on the road relative to the rest of the US. FDOT designs as best it can for the old and the generally derpy people that live in this state, but Darwin still works wonders.
 
2013-06-03 08:27:41 PM

thomasvista: FDOT just creates the guidelines for the locals to follow.


Which were below federal recommendations and just so happen to result in more money for the state... you know... by happenstance, of course.
 
2013-06-03 08:27:47 PM
www.aanblog.com
 
2013-06-03 08:29:10 PM
Forget the cameras, we should get rid of redlights.  It's all just a scam by crooked, money-sucking politicians who want to take away our rights and steal our money.

Let the market decide!
 
2013-06-03 08:30:15 PM

thomasvista: FDOT likes to make it's so-called "standards" above what the feds require, since we have a large elderly population on the road relative to the rest of the US. FDOT designs as best it can for the old and the generally derpy people that live in this state, but Darwin still works wonders.


Have i misinterpreted something? FDOT increased the yellow light timing, which brought it closer to federal standards. That means the Florida standards would have been shorter (not "above") what the feds suggest, which makes it worse for elderly drivers. That's how I parsed the article, anyway. Am I wrong?
 
2013-06-03 08:31:52 PM
I'm pretty sure if I lived in a Red Light Camera State I'd make it a point to shoot the cameras. Destroy enough of their property and they'll get the hint.

/Yes, I'd take precautions about getting caught too
//The point is to make idiots suffer, not become a martyr.
 
2013-06-03 08:32:59 PM

thomasvista: jack21221: FTFA:  Florida's new minimums for yellow lights will be closer to federal safety suggestions:

...but still not quite there. Why don't they just adopt the federal safety suggestions and be done with it?

FDOT likes to make it's so-called "standards" above what the feds require, since we have a large elderly population on the road relative to the rest of the US. FDOT designs as best it can for the old and the generally derpy people that live in this state, but Darwin still works wonders.


You are clueless about this situation. FDOT is below the Federal standards. They aren't compensating for the elderly at all, they are going in the complete opposite direction.

It's really farked up.
 
2013-06-03 08:37:58 PM
How about just putting in a countdown light...

Yellow lights are BS as depending on the distance, it makes the difference between stopping without issues and braking hard..

A countdown that can be seen lets people know exactly if they have time to stop  by having them know that they will not have time to cross before it goes to red...

If they really cared about safety, THAT is what would be standard to ALL lights.
 
2013-06-03 08:44:28 PM
We want our money back! Thieves!
 
2013-06-03 08:45:46 PM
1 second yellow to rake in cash?

I'm curious for the sake of curiosity how hard it would be for an irate citizen to remove the cameras or the light poles altogether?
 
2013-06-03 08:47:16 PM
he agency will add 0.4 seconds

Won't even add a half a second, let alone a whole second.
 
2013-06-03 08:50:33 PM
In Baltimore the red light cameras were giving tickets to parked cars, so some people got suspicious.
 
2013-06-03 08:53:29 PM

lordargent: he agency will add 0.4 seconds

Won't even add a half a second, let alone a whole second.


.4 seconds is a 40% increase. That's actually fairly significant.
 
2013-06-03 08:55:54 PM

Deep Contact: We want our money back! Thieves!


Seriously. This is the kind of shiat that people need to be up in arms about.
 
2013-06-03 08:58:08 PM

MrBallou: So, it has to be cut to the absolute minimum for reaction time, instead of giving a generous amount of time to stop safely?

I hate that they don't even try to pretend it's about safety anymore, yet the people just take it. We really are becoming a nation of sheep.


This. This. THIS.
 
2013-06-03 09:08:35 PM

Nem Wan: thomasvista: As an FDOT employee, yeah this was a big stink, but.......

....what most people don't realize is, FDOT does not actually control any signals. This is all done at the county/city level, and ultimately, they're the ones making the decisions, which in some cases may be about the $$$. FDOT just creates the guidelines for the locals to follow.

Deliberately timing lights to cause violations should be illegal, punishable with jail time and lifetime ineligibility to hold government jobs.


^this^
 
2013-06-03 09:08:43 PM

jack21221: FTFA:  Florida's new minimums for yellow lights will be closer to federal safety suggestions:

...but still not quite there. Why don't they just adopt the federal safety suggestions and be done with it?


Because then they won't get paid. Duh.
 
2013-06-03 09:11:16 PM
Am I the only one who stops for red lights?  It's not hard.

Do I live in the only city in the US that installed RLCs that don't ticket people who are trying to comply with the laws?

WTF?

If the light turns red, just friggin' stop.  You'll have to sit there for a whole 30 seconds before you can proceed, but it's better than killing or crippling someone.

Anecdote:  I have NEVER gotten a ticket from an RLC.  A friend of mine has gotten several.  When I see a red light I may curse, but I stop.  He says f*ck it and hits the accelerator.  We both drive through the same intersection with an RLC at least a dozen times a week.  Why do you think he gets the tickets and I don't?

Have you people never seen an accident caused by someone who has run a red light?  Just comply with traffic laws and you'll be fine.
 
2013-06-03 09:11:30 PM
What else do you expect when you run government like a business? Profit over all, including the laws you were hired to uphold.
 
2013-06-03 09:13:43 PM

Bung_Howdy:


As a traffic signal designer for an engineering consultant, I thank you for bringing this conversation around to what is truly important.
 
2013-06-03 09:15:14 PM
I really hate driving in cities that have these things... I have adopted a three-second follow rule when driving to account for idiots slamming their brakes on. As a result, my car has sustained no front end damage. If everybody did this, or at least revolted and destroyed every red light camera in their cities of residence, the roads would probably be safer.
 
2013-06-03 09:15:54 PM
As a Florida driver... this doesn't have shiat to do with elderly drivers or reaction times.  They drive slow already.
 
2013-06-03 09:16:48 PM

gfid: Am I the only one who stops for red lights?  It's not hard.

Do I live in the only city in the US that installed RLCs that don't ticket people who are trying to comply with the laws?

WTF?

If the light turns red, just friggin' stop.  You'll have to sit there for a whole 30 seconds before you can proceed, but it's better than killing or crippling someone.

Anecdote:  I have NEVER gotten a ticket from an RLC.  A friend of mine has gotten several.  When I see a red light I may curse, but I stop.  He says f*ck it and hits the accelerator.  We both drive through the same intersection with an RLC at least a dozen times a week.  Why do you think he gets the tickets and I don't?

Have you people never seen an accident caused by someone who has run a red light?  Just comply with traffic laws and you'll be fine.


6.5/10, you'll get some bites.
 
2013-06-03 09:17:12 PM
Red light cameras technology has gotten a bad rep from the unethical companies that have been renting them. The technology itself is sound and worthwhile.

Don't blame the technology, blame the operators, both the municipalities and the crooked companies that take a cut of citation fees. The tech is good. The tech can save lives and improve traffic flow. It significantly reduces t-bone accidents. While it may cause a few more rear enders, t-bones are one hell of a lot more deadly than slow speed rear enders. It also improves traffic flow by removing most gridlock.

There are a huge number of intersections near me that would be vastly safer and move more traffic if they had red light cameras. Even if they didn't improve safety, the reduction in gridlock would be worth the expense. Just don't let private companies take a cut and don't shorten the yellows.

Were I live, the current situation at many intersections is not sustainable. There are just too many red light runners and gridlock violators for the cops to handle. It's a choice of the cameras or waste a whole lot more in taxpayer money stationing cops at intersections. Done properly, for safety reasons, not revenue, the camera make far better use of taxpayer dollars.
 
2013-06-03 09:17:26 PM
How about we start charging city council members who vote to create these camera traps with premeditated murder when they inevitably cause fatal accidents?
 
2013-06-03 09:18:15 PM
cheam.mycouncillor.org.uk
UK. It counts down to let you know when to clear the intersection.
 
2013-06-03 09:19:00 PM

gfid: Am I the only one who stops for red lights?  It's not hard.

Do I live in the only city in the US that installed RLCs that don't ticket people who are trying to comply with the laws?

WTF?

If the light turns red, just friggin' stop.  You'll have to sit there for a whole 30 seconds before you can proceed, but it's better than killing or crippling someone.

Anecdote:  I have NEVER gotten a ticket from an RLC.  A friend of mine has gotten several.  When I see a red light I may curse, but I stop.  He says f*ck it and hits the accelerator.  We both drive through the same intersection with an RLC at least a dozen times a week.  Why do you think he gets the tickets and I don't?

Have you people never seen an accident caused by someone who has run a red light?  Just comply with traffic laws and you'll be fine.


It's clear that you don't understand what the objection to red-light cameras is. Or, if trolling, 7/10.
 
2013-06-03 09:24:17 PM

jack21221: FTFA:  Florida's new minimums for yellow lights will be closer to federal safety suggestions:

...but still not quite there. Why don't they just adopt the federal safety suggestions and be done with it?


Because it's not actually about safety...
 
2013-06-03 09:26:50 PM

RandomRandom: Red light cameras technology has gotten a bad rep from the unethical companies that have been renting them. The technology itself is sound and worthwhile.

Don't blame the technology, blame the operators, both the municipalities and the crooked companies that take a cut of citation fees. The tech is good. The tech can save lives and improve traffic flow. It significantly reduces t-bone accidents. While it may cause a few more rear enders, t-bones are one hell of a lot more deadly than slow speed rear enders. It also improves traffic flow by removing most gridlock.

There are a huge number of intersections near me that would be vastly safer and move more traffic if they had red light cameras. Even if they didn't improve safety, the reduction in gridlock would be worth the expense. Just don't let private companies take a cut and don't shorten the yellows.

Were I live, the current situation at many intersections is not sustainable. There are just too many red light runners and gridlock violators for the cops to handle. It's a choice of the cameras or waste a whole lot more in taxpayer money stationing cops at intersections. Done properly, for safety reasons, not revenue, the camera make far better use of taxpayer dollars.


I'd like to see all traffic violations be paid into a fund to reduce the national debt, or something else like that.

The police department and the city don't even get a cut.

Then we'd see traffic enforcement that was actually based on safety.
 
2013-06-03 09:27:22 PM

theorellior: gfid: Am I the only one who stops for red lights?  It's not hard.

Do I live in the only city in the US that installed RLCs that don't ticket people who are trying to comply with the laws?

WTF?

If the light turns red, just friggin' stop.  You'll have to sit there for a whole 30 seconds before you can proceed, but it's better than killing or crippling someone.

Anecdote:  I have NEVER gotten a ticket from an RLC.  A friend of mine has gotten several.  When I see a red light I may curse, but I stop.  He says f*ck it and hits the accelerator.  We both drive through the same intersection with an RLC at least a dozen times a week.  Why do you think he gets the tickets and I don't?

Have you people never seen an accident caused by someone who has run a red light?  Just comply with traffic laws and you'll be fine.

6.5/10, you'll get some bites.



Maybe you're a crappy driver or you just don't care but I agree with the post and see no reason to consider it trolling.

But you keep getting those tickets.
 
2013-06-03 09:28:58 PM

RandomRandom: Done properly, for safety reasons, not revenue, the camera make far better use of taxpayer dollars.


As has been pointed out by others and yourself, the reason RLC are installed is the same reason there are meter maids. They generate revenue for the local government. These are additional taxpayer dollars.

If the castle holders would be allowed to charge all who use their street modest banalités, a charge for passage or garage, so to speak, then the local government wouldn't need to resort to parking meters and RLC.
 
2013-06-03 09:29:55 PM
Regressive taxes are regressive.  fark you middle class and poor.
 
2013-06-03 09:31:21 PM

jmr61: Maybe you're a crappy driver or you just don't care but I agree with the post and see no reason to consider it trolling.


So you don't understand the objection to red-light cameras either. Gotcha.
 
2013-06-03 09:34:36 PM

gfid: Am I the only one who stops for red lights?  It's not hard.


Have you even paid attention to the conversation, or are you the type who stops at green lights?  It's not about running red lights, it's about still being in the intersection when it turns red.  Or it turns red just before you enter the intersection because there's some jackass riding your rear who also thought he could make it through because they're used to 3.5 second yellows, not 2 second ones, and you didn't want to get rear-ended today.

The issue at hand is yellow light timing.  Federal guidelines are quite well set up so that people of average to slow reaction speed under a wide variety of conditions can, at virtually any distance from the light, see that it turns yellow, make a value judgement on whether to stop or not, then execute said stop in a controlled manner, not a tire-squealing emergency one.

As said in the article and numerous sources, tuning a yellow to be half a second shorter can double tickets.  This doesn't indicate to me willful red light running, this indicates to me that people, not used to maybe having to panic stop to avoid being in the intersection when it turns red, honestly thought they'd make it.  In addition, shorter yellows combined with red light cameras leads to more accidents, which also leads to more injuries.  Red light cameras might make an intersection safer, but if you lower the yellow timing to increase revenue you're making it dangerous again - which means they're about revenue, not safety, and that's starting to piss more and more people off.

Why do they shorten the yellows, as indicated in this article(and many others about different areas)?  Because it turns out that there aren't enough red light runners on DOT compliant intersections to pay for the system.  If they're putting them up because a particular intersection is seeing a lot of accidents/red light running, odds are that the intersection isn't set up right.

Do I live in the only city in the US that installed RLCs that don't ticket people who are trying to comply with the laws?

Probably, seeing as how they shortened the yellows below what formulas with decades of research behind them that incorporate human reaction times, speed, intersection width, grade, pavement type, the stopping speed of vehicles, and more say the ideal timing is for best safety.
 Have you people never seen an accident caused by someone who has run a red light?  Just comply with traffic laws and you'll be fine.


I've been in an accident caused by somebody stopping at a red light...  Gotta love being rear-ended.  Heck, saw an accident caused by somebody slowing at a green light.

Most of the serious, serious red light running accidents I've seen involved a red that had been red for a while and a speeding drunk person, or somebody running from the cops.  Sorry, but I don't think either type is going to be stopped or even slowed down by red light cameras.
 
2013-06-03 09:43:25 PM

Delay: [cheam.mycouncillor.org.uk image 448x319]
UK. It counts down to let you know when to clear the intersection.


I've seen those in the US.  What I find hilarious is that after the 0 it waits still several more, maybe even 5 seconds before the light turns red.

At some point, if someone is going to run a red light they're going to run it.  They're onto your 5s delay, and they're going to roll through 5.5s later.

Ya know what would make it easier on safe drivers?  Farking consistency.
 
2013-06-03 09:47:07 PM

thomasvista: As an FDOT employee, yeah this was a big stink, but.......

....what most people don't realize is, FDOT does not actually control any signals. This is all done at the county/city level, and ultimately, they're the ones making the decisions, which in some cases may be about the $$$. FDOT just creates the guidelines for the locals to follow.


The State of Florida gets half from every red light camera ticket fine.  The Legislature needs to fix it.
 
2013-06-03 09:47:13 PM
its all kinda dumb. if you run a red light and dont cause any accidents,what harm has been done? many i know have been ticketed for red light running simply because they did a right turn without stopping,in situations where there was no traffic. i can see where they could be a deterrent when there is traffic,but when there is none? i kind of feel the same way about the newer thing of installing unmanned radar to catch speeders on remote stretches of highways. if there isnt a real reason to catch them,it must just be another way to tax people. to me,an actual paid cop should be the only way these offenses should be ticketed. no cop, no foul. too much regulation,not enough enforcement. you catch me fair and square,fine,ill pay for the offense. you try to use all these big brother technologies brought about by a for profit corporation,no way skippy.
 
2013-06-03 09:47:55 PM

Adolf Oliver Nipples: It's clear that you don't understand what the objection to red-light cameras is. Or, if trolling, 7/10.


As I understand it, the main objection is manipulation of yellow light timing in order to increase revenues and I would agree that such practices are wrong and I know there have been documented cases of that having happened.

OTOH, that is not the case everywhere and I believe the city I live in has implemented RLCs properly.  I think it has had a positive benefit (regardless of the revenue stream to the city via tickets).  It's actually rare that I see people run red lights at the intersections with RLCs.  At other intersections, it's actually rare that I don't see people running red lights.  Oh look, I have a green light, but someone who has a red just entered the friggin' intersection so I'll just wait for them.

Fark that.  Aside from the obvious carnage and danger caused by red light runners, it farks up traffic.  Someone entering a major thoroughfare from a side street can (and should) farking wait 30 seconds while the busy street gets its green light.

The needs of the many outweighs the needs of a few.  I really don't understand why you and that other person upthread consider this a troll.

If the light turns red, just please stop!  I hate being stopped at traffic lights too, but there are other people on the road beside me and it's not worth the risk to myself or others to run red lights.

Implemented correctly - without manipulation of light timing to maximize revenue - I think RLCs are a fantastic idea.

Even when it snows here and the roads are icy, I don't have a problem stopping for red lights.  Those are road conditions which should be taken into account.  You should look ahead of you and recognize when a light has been green for so long that it's likely to go red.  You should always be prepared to stop.  Sometimes things come up unexpectedly.

I've seen 18 wheelers slam into passenger cars at intersections.  It's not pretty, but it doesn't even have to be an 18 wheeler.  My own coupe could kill someone if I hit them in an intersection.  I could get killed too.  The risk of a ticket just adds extra incentive, not that any is needed for me but apparently a lot of self-entitled assholes think it's okay to run red lights.
 
2013-06-03 09:48:48 PM

gfid: Am I the only one who stops for red lights?  It's not hard.


Ok, sure, I'll bite.

Red light cameras are placed at intersections where the yellow timing is unsafe. Rather than fix the timing, they use this to extort money from the public. In severe cases, they actually shorten the yellow time intentionally, further endangering the public. Studies have shown that intersections with reasonable yellow times do not generate enough money to make it worth the trouble to maintain the camera. By contrast I live in a city with an intersection that has a short green and yellow on its left turn lane that generates a million dollars a year. From just that one intersection. That's alot of motivation for corruption.

That's why most people don't like red light cameras.

my.opera.com
 
2013-06-03 09:54:14 PM

gfid: The needs of the many outweighs the needs of a few. I really don't understand why you and that other person upthread consider this a troll.


...

gfid: Implemented correctly - without manipulation of light timing to maximize revenue - I think RLCs are a fantastic idea.


That's why. They are NOT implemented correctly. Example after example, thread after thread, time after time, and you come in and post what you did knowing full well that municipalities are using them for fundraising. You simply can't be serious. Do you post how you do thre speed limit and nothing more in the left lane on the highway, too? Nobody, NOBODY, will argue with you that you are supposed to stop at red lights. The argument is that the yellows are shortened to catch people in a trap where they either get the ticket or they get buttfarked by the guy behind them when they panic stop.
 
2013-06-03 10:02:12 PM
If only there were a civic minded person willing to take this on.

1.bp.blogspot.com

//Hot Cool link
 
2013-06-03 10:04:19 PM

thomasvista: jack21221: FTFA:  Florida's new minimums for yellow lights will be closer to federal safety suggestions:

...but still not quite there. Why don't they just adopt the federal safety suggestions and be done with it?

FDOT likes to make it's so-called "standards" above what the feds require, since we have a large elderly population on the road relative to the rest of the US. FDOT designs as best it can for the old and the generally derpy people that live in this state, but Darwin still works wonders.


I am shocked that an FDOT employee can't tell when one number (federal interval times) is larger than another (Florida's interval times). They should at least require you guys to finish the 3rd grade before you can work there.
 
Displayed 50 of 106 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report