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(The New York Times)   For a religion that holds elimination of desire as one of its core teachings, these Buddhist monks seem to be really feisty about who owns some priceless relics   (nytimes.com) divider line 22
    More: Interesting, Buddhists, Buddhist monks, Japan Ground Self-Defense Force, teachings, faiths  
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4887 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Jun 2013 at 12:39 PM (45 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-06-03 12:38:11 PM
5 votes:

Lionel Mandrake: Yes, violence in Myanmar - often directed by monks - is not new. What's your point?


"Don't pay attention to the crap in the Middle East - look at those Buddhists instead!"
2013-06-03 06:26:52 AM
4 votes:
Also Buddhism plays the LOOOOOONG game. You think one eternity is a long time? The Bodhisattva are willing to deal with multiples of that to save every sentient creature. It's not a short path, so it's understandable that not everyone will be advanced far enough to avoid such banal conflicts as this, especially considering you're not really a full Buddhist unless you're meditating and such, actively working on your own enlightenment. If you just go to the temples on New Year's Day and funerals, you're just a fan of the religion.

And that's really how many Asians describe themselves. The Japanese have no religion, if you ask them. Shinto is a thing, Buddhism is a thing, but most of the time they're secular. Koreans are probably similar. They eat meat, drink beer, and don't sit around and meditate all day. No monks, just familiar with Buddhism. So it's understandable they wouldn't be very far along the path.
2013-06-03 06:07:59 AM
3 votes:
"To stop suffering, stop greediness.  Greediness is a source of suffering," said the Buddha.

The "deity of compassion" is  Avalokiteśvara, the most revered of the Bodhisattvas, known  to the Chinese in the feminine form of Quan Yin.  They are not gods but beings far advanced on the path to Enlightenment, who could enter the eternal non-suffering of Nrivana if they chose.  They choose, instead, to remain in this realm of birth, suffering, death, and rebirth until they have helped every other sentient being achieve Nirvana... a never-ending task.

Their love is infinitely greater than the love which Jesus said was the greatest.  To die for one's friends is the work of a moment; to live and suffer eternally for them is a far greater sacrifice.
2013-06-03 12:50:26 PM
2 votes:

Tatsuma: Yeah the idea that Buddhism have based on television show and a few Western idiots who don't really know anything about it is far from what Buddhism really is.

For example, who here knew that Buddhism was routinely used in the past to justify wars and violence?

[i.imgur.com image 256x380]

Four days ago, in Myanmar there was a report that a Muslim man had burned a Buddhist woman. Buddhist mobs started riots and have been attacking Muslims since, forcing them into hiding.


Yes, it turns out people world-wide will use their faith to justify their own actions, regardless of how much their actions are in line with the professed faith's core beliefs.  It's almost like it has more to do with the kind of person they are and nothing to do with the kind of religion they advocate.  Weird, huh?
2013-06-03 12:45:55 PM
2 votes:

Lionel Mandrake: Yes, violence in Myanmar - often directed by monks - is not new. What's your point?


I just want to note that in Myanmar, especially the rural areas where there is very few resources and few prospects of employment, it's fairly customary for the young men to become "monks" for a while because the Buddhist temples have work and food. They're monks in name only and they're not generally there for spiritual reasons.

So, the monks that often instigate riots and violence are often just unemployed young men with too much time on their hands looking for somebody to blame. The fact that they are monks is just a very minor detail since they're not really doing it as a directive of the religion.
2013-06-03 01:26:24 PM
1 votes:

Tatsuma: Judaism had long been established and its texts written before zoroaster was even born.

I don't know why you're just ignoring that and keep on repeating it as if you were somehow right.


I'm ignoring it, because while I have things like textual analysis and archaeology to support MY argument, your argument hinges entirely on a necessarily biased series of internal traditions and nothing more.

And hey, that's your right. In fact, it probably makes you a better believer. I don't fault you for that. If anything, I respect your strident defense of your beliefs.

But you can't honestly expect to walk into a nicely secular site like Fark and expect people to concede to that kind of argument. You and I have both been on here for years and years. I know I'm not going to change your mind, and I'm not trying to. But you shouldn't confuse 'shutting up because I got tired of pointing out the screamingly obvious' with 'winning'.
2013-06-03 01:22:29 PM
1 votes:

Tatsuma: whistleridge: Yes and no. There are arguments on both sides. Certainly, the Genesis story and much of the Torah probably stem from (slightly) older material, but vast chunks of the material were at a minimum heavily influenced. Angels are probably zoroastrian in origin, as is much of the underlying philosophy. At a minimum, modern Judaism has heavily syncretized many elements from the ancient Zian practices.

אִיוֹב /lyob/Job and קֹהֶלֶת /Qoheleth /Ecclesiastes are both essentially products of this. Although I will admit some scholars argue for a more Hellenistic origin for the latter, and I'm showing my bias in saying that.

Again, Judaism predates Zoroastrianism. Zoroaster only came on the scene 6th Century BCE. We'd been in the land and had a Temple standing for centuries before he was even born. As much as people want to pretend that Bereshiat was cribbed from elsewhere, there is no actual proofs of that, nor any texts that even get close. Both Yiov and Kohelet are also older than Zoroastrianism.


Again: parts of it do. But by your own accounting, that Temple was smashed 3 separate times, its priests were slain, and its holy texts were utterly destroyed. It is literally a miracle of the faith that they were reassembled at all.

I'm being friendly by saying that. A harder line would point out that the oldest texts of Judaism are the Masoretic scrolls, which date from the 800s. Yes, they've been corroborated by the Dead Sea Scrolls and various bits of papyrus and various translations like the Septuagint, but my point remains: the faith is textually based, and those texts...actually aren't that old. Even if you assume the tradition is 100% accurate, the oldest possible record dates AFTER the Babylonian exile and the reestablishment of the Temple.

I'll be generous, and allow that the reestablishment was accurate, and that your older dates apply. We'll say Judaism exists as a religion since the time Abraham left Ur, sometime before 1000 BCE. I'll leave aside the massive dating issues even among Judaic scholars. Zoroaster is generally held to have lived approximately the same time, in the first half of the second millenium BCE. No, the religion established in his name didn't come along until the 6th century BCE, but....neither did Judaism in the sense that any modern person might mean it.

In short, I'm being generous but very accurate when I say Judaism is, at best, slightly older. 

/ yes, I realize the Orthodox Jewish version must necessarily see Judaism as much older, since it starts with Adam. That's a different argument, for a different site.
2013-06-03 01:08:43 PM
1 votes:
Sorta like why you never talk about the history of the Emerald Buddha in the Golden Triangle countries. 600 years and some people are *still* pissed.

Tatsuma:

Four days ago, in Myanmar there was a report that a Muslim man had burned a Buddhist woman. Buddhist mobs started riots and have been attacking Muslims since, forcing them into hiding.

Which is kind of like saying that a riot in Rome involved Catholic mobs, or one in Tel Aviv involved Jewish mobs. *Everyone* in Myanmar is expected to spend some time as a novice and / or monk or nun, especially the poor.
2013-06-03 01:08:34 PM
1 votes:

Tatsuma: No I'm not, I'm deriding this attitude of 'Buddhists sit around wanting nothing, fat and jolly like those buddha statues!' that so many here have. How many times do you read shiat like 'Oh I'm not interested in Xianity or Islam but if I had to be religious, I'd choose something like Buddhism!' just because they buy into that image?


There is a difference, but not quite like that. The word Buddhist is a western creation. In the east they're simply called beggars, and not treated with much respect.

People in the west have an idea of buddhist monks acting like christian monks, or them as revered holy masters, when the reality is much more humble.

And i'll spare everyone the old debate about it being a religion or spirituality.
2013-06-03 01:07:13 PM
1 votes:
There is such a thing as practical Buddhism.  It's a conscious effort to separate the teachings from the religion that's grown up around them. When the strictures of religion and veneration become more important than the actual living of a Buddhist life, it's time to discard the trappings.

I can believe in the alleviation of suffering, and the desire to bring compassion to my patch of ground and those living in it, without having to memorize dharma lineage or what someone wrote to their followers four hundred years ago.  It's possible to be a good, ethical man without having to involve organized faith in it.

As far as the conflict described in TFA, all I can offer is that not everyone can live up to an ideal every day.  There isn't a religion extant whose followers are 100% true to their teachings.  It's easy to be at peace when life is good, it's when you encounter hell that you display your character  It's up to everyone around them to remind them of their community and their principles.  That's true everywhere, not just there.
2013-06-03 01:05:35 PM
1 votes:
Every religion humanity has ever devised eventually is misused or misunderstood and put to evil purposes.

Dosn't make the ideas less valid, just makes the followers human.

/Except for the God(s) thing, which is just primitive mythology that we can't seem to let go of.
//Buddhist.
2013-06-03 01:05:15 PM
1 votes:

Honest Bender: "Teachings" are also anti-buddhist. But I don't think most buddhists would pick up on that. *shrug* their path is not my path.


Genuine Buddhists have transcended labels.
2013-06-03 01:02:36 PM
1 votes:

whistleridge: Tatsuma: whistleridge: By which, I assume you are referring to Christianity and Islam?

Because if that's so, then by that logic, Judaism is nothing more than a warped sectarian offshoot of ancient zoroastrianism, and we should really be blaming the ancient Persians...:p

Judaism is older than zoroastrianism. Also both Xianity and Islam themselves declare they are offshoots from us.

Yes and no. There are arguments on both sides. Certainly, the Genesis story and much of the Torah probably stem from (slightly) older material, but vast chunks of the material were at a minimum heavily influenced. Angels are probably zoroastrian in origin, as is much of the underlying philosophy. At a minimum, modern Judaism has heavily syncretized many elements from the ancient Zian practices.

אִיוֹב /lyob/Job and  קֹהֶלֶת /Qoheleth /Ecclesiastes are both essentially products of this. Although I will admit some scholars argue for a more Hellenistic origin for the latter, and I'm showing my bias in saying that.


Don't forget that large portions of the Torah were edited after the fact to remove references to various other contemporary and older Semitic gods like Asherah and Baal when the sect that became Judaism broke away to become monotheists.
2013-06-03 01:01:41 PM
1 votes:
"Teachings" are also anti-buddhist.  But I don't think most buddhists would pick up on that.  *shrug* their path is not my path.

I prefer tao.  Don't seek to escape the patterns of life.  Instead, see life for the wonderful experience it is.  We are all one, jump on it.
2013-06-03 01:00:27 PM
1 votes:

Tatsuma: whistleridge: By which, I assume you are referring to Christianity and Islam?

Because if that's so, then by that logic, Judaism is nothing more than a warped sectarian offshoot of ancient zoroastrianism, and we should really be blaming the ancient Persians...:p

Judaism is older than zoroastrianism. Also both Xianity and Islam themselves declare they are offshoots from us.


Yes and no. There are arguments on both sides. Certainly, the Genesis story and much of the Torah probably stem from (slightly) older material, but vast chunks of the material were at a minimum heavily influenced. Angels are probably zoroastrian in origin, as is much of the underlying philosophy. At a minimum, modern Judaism has heavily syncretized many elements from the ancient Zian practices.

אִיוֹב /lyob/Job and  קֹהֶלֶת /Qoheleth /Ecclesiastes are both essentially products of this. Although I will admit some scholars argue for a more Hellenistic origin for the latter, and I'm showing my bias in saying that.
2013-06-03 12:55:49 PM
1 votes:

whistleridge: Yes, he did. Point in fact, both he and Saul/Paul barely said a single original thing. Which was kind of their point...


Yeah the few things they did say that were original were so far from Judaism that it ended up with Jews just rejecting it (but man did the non-Jewish pagans around love it).

Actually they already had a huge base to sell it to. They were the so-called 'G-d Fearers' of the Roman Empire. They were non-Jews who were really into Judaism. You had whole roman cities where you couldn't see a single fire during the Shabbat, etc... They basically would have converted to Judaism if it hadn't been for one pesky detail: They really hated circumcision and saw it as a complete monstrosity that shouldn't be emulated. They also loved their swine.

So when that guy (Paul) came and said 'Hey you can have all of these things you're looking for in Judaism but without removing your foreskin oh and still eat bacon' they went crazy for it.
2013-06-03 12:55:06 PM
1 votes:

mekki: Jake Havechek: And didn't Jesus say: "drop all your material shiat and hang out with me, it'll be cool".

What's Jesus have to do with a bunch of Buddhists fighting over relics?


Maybe because it touches on Idolatry and the same message of forsaking material possessions in order to gain enlightenment inherent to most religions?

Want me to make you a flow chart? A motherfarking Powerpoint presentation complete with a video and summary handout?
2013-06-03 12:53:21 PM
1 votes:
Hey look, a religion where the followers struggle to overcome their human weaknesses!

Never seen that before.
2013-06-03 12:51:40 PM
1 votes:
"Are you still carrying that woman? I put her down back at the river".
2013-06-03 12:47:28 PM
1 votes:

Tatsuma: Yeah the idea that Buddhism have based on television show and a few Western idiots who don't really know anything about it is far from what Buddhism really is.

For example, who here knew that Buddhism was routinely used in the past to justify wars and violence?

i.imgur.com

Four days ago, in Myanmar there was a report that a Muslim man had burned a Buddhist woman. Buddhist mobs started riots and have been attacking Muslims since, forcing them into hiding.


Are you suggesting Buddhism really is those examples?

Anything can be twisted, and often is, to serve military and political purposes. Except Judaism, of course.
2013-06-03 12:35:14 PM
1 votes:

Tatsuma: Yeah the idea that Buddhism have based on television show and a few Western idiots who don't really know anything about it is far from what Buddhism really is.


Yeah, because Buddhism is one thing.

For example, who here knew that Buddhism was routinely used in the past to justify wars and violence?

I knew.  And plenty of other people.  You're not special.

Four days ago, in Myanmar there was a report that a Muslim man had burned a Buddhist woman. Buddhist mobs started riots and have been attacking Muslims since, forcing them into hiding.

Yes, violence in Myanmar - often directed by monks - is not new.  What's your point?
2013-06-03 11:56:25 AM
1 votes:
Japan and Korea??

I detect the corrupting influence of Shinto and Christianity.

*begins backing away*

...also, the entire Mahayana branch is too moony to worry overmuch about the Buddha's teachings

*runs*
 
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