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(Flavorwire)   Blogging about The Great Gatsby, offering fans movie recommendations and eight more activities George R.R. Martin is currently doing instead of writing the next installment of A Song of Ice and Fire. Someone needs to focus, stat   (flavorwire.com ) divider line
    More: Fail, George R. R. Martin, Song of Ice, The Great Gatsby, eternal flame, coffee-table books  
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1446 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 31 May 2013 at 10:31 AM (2 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-31 04:38:20 PM  
 
2013-05-31 04:43:41 PM  

Cagey B: Ned Stark: We'll all already know the ending though.

everyone gets eaten by others.

Honestly, that should be the way it ends. It would make sense. The various factions of Westeros are far too busy tearing each other down to unify in any meaningful way once the true threat breaches The Wall. Daenerys Targaryen could maybe do something about it, but the bout of Sudden Onset Stupidity that she caught in Meereen will prevent her from building ships of any sort. There will be a dragon in Westeros, but only because Victarion Greyjoy yoinked it, and he'll be too busy using it to burn Euron to ash, stacking the ashes up into a little pile, and burning the ashes again, to help out.

Oh, and also, Melisandre will try to raise Jon Snow, but he'll have warg'd into the first thing around in order to save his life, and thus will be forced spend the rest of the series in the body of a wandering Great Dane, trying in vain to rally the Night's Watch in a Scooby-Doo voice.


Oh, the nights watch is already beyond farked. I mean, I can understand what the conservative faction was on about, Jon did betray everything the watch had stood for for a few centuries.

Its just... their sense of timing is awful. Thousands of wildlings are through the wall. The king who had been backing the watch appears to have bit it. A few hundred wildlings have just agreed to follow Jon on a suicide mission and are all presently armed and only a hundred or so yards away. RAMSEY GODDAMN BOLTON has just said he's personally coming to the wall in force if Jon show. Who the hell would pick this moment to launch a coup?
 
2013-05-31 04:46:24 PM  

Carth: Bunny Deville: George R. R. Martin is not your biatch.

Gaiman makes one important mistake in that argument. he assumes readers purchased and received "Game of Thrones" and therefore GRRM doesn't owe them anything. Many readers however purchased "A song of ice and fire part 1" which has an implied assumption that there will be a part 2, part 3 etc until the series is finished. By going nearly 2 decades without finishing the damn series and 4-5 years between books he is not only ignoring that agreement he is almost in uncharted territory for a popular fantasy author.

Gaiman never addresses the question "Would readers have paid $10 for a book if GRRM said "This series is never going to be finished" or "The series won't be finished until 2020" Would people started it back in 1996 if they knew it still wouldn't be finished today? I know I wouldn't have I'd have put it off and read something else and I"m sure a lot of other people would have too.


Particularly since the books had every future book in the series listed as (Forthcoming) in the front of the book.  Grew from 3 to 4 to 5 etc.  Of course newer editions have updated the forthcoming books list, but, regardless, the implied promise was made.  I wouldn't say that Martin should be crucified for it, but it's bad form.
 
2013-05-31 05:00:39 PM  

bhcompy: Carth: Bunny Deville: George R. R. Martin is not your biatch.

Gaiman makes one important mistake in that argument. he assumes readers purchased and received "Game of Thrones" and therefore GRRM doesn't owe them anything. Many readers however purchased "A song of ice and fire part 1" which has an implied assumption that there will be a part 2, part 3 etc until the series is finished. By going nearly 2 decades without finishing the damn series and 4-5 years between books he is not only ignoring that agreement he is almost in uncharted territory for a popular fantasy author.

Gaiman never addresses the question "Would readers have paid $10 for a book if GRRM said "This series is never going to be finished" or "The series won't be finished until 2020" Would people started it back in 1996 if they knew it still wouldn't be finished today? I know I wouldn't have I'd have put it off and read something else and I"m sure a lot of other people would have too.

Particularly since the books had every future book in the series listed as (Forthcoming) in the front of the book.  Grew from 3 to 4 to 5 etc.  Of course newer editions have updated the forthcoming books list, but, regardless, the implied promise was made.  I wouldn't say that Martin should be crucified for it, but it's bad form.


Overall, I still think it was a win for fantasy fans. Without ASoIaF I don't think we'd have gotten Malazan or Joe Abercrombie's books. Sure it is really annoying he won't finish the damn books but he's already done enough good for the genre.
 
2013-05-31 05:10:37 PM  

Ned Stark: Who the hell would pick this moment to launch a coup?


They've put a lot of faith in the upcoming Dolorous Edd administration.
 
2013-05-31 05:11:19 PM  
Meanwhile, Steven Erikson and Ian Cameron Esslemont are upwards of 15,000 pages over 16 books plus a few novellas during their free time over the past 12 years.

Martin and Jordan are in a class by themselves, though Patrick Rothfuss may out-do them all. Something like 9 years to write his first book, then another four to polish the second and who knows for the third.
 
2013-05-31 05:18:33 PM  

NathanAllen: Meanwhile, Steven Erikson and Ian Cameron Esslemont are upwards of 15,000 pages over 16 books plus a few novellas during their free time over the past 12 years.


Which is also a problem. I read the first one and liked it fine, but no way do I see myself finishing all (10?, 12? ) enormous volumes.
 
2013-05-31 05:21:38 PM  

drewogatory: NathanAllen: Meanwhile, Steven Erikson and Ian Cameron Esslemont are upwards of 15,000 pages over 16 books plus a few novellas during their free time over the past 12 years.

Which is also a problem. I read the first one and liked it fine, but no way do I see myself finishing all (10?, 12? ) enormous volumes.


if you made it through the first one at least give the second a try. The first book isn't that good in my opinion but books 2-10 are pretty awesome
 
2013-05-31 05:27:00 PM  
After the last book I really wouldn't care if he never finished the series. In my mind, it ended with Book 3.
 
2013-05-31 05:35:38 PM  
Ned Stark:

Its just... their sense of timing is awful. Thousands of wildlings are through the wall. The king who had been backing the watch appears to have bit it. A few hundred wildlings have just agreed to follow Jon on a suicide mission and are all presently armed and only a hundred or so yards away. RAMSEY GODDAMN BOLTON has just said he's personally coming to the wall in force if Jon show. Who the hell would pick this moment to launch a coup?

The only consistent thing in the whole set of novels is that haters gonna hate.  Asshole behavior and the problems it causes are what moves the events in that world.  Good deeds are ignored or small potatoes, but dick moves change the fates of nations.
 
2013-05-31 05:40:53 PM  

Carth: drewogatory: NathanAllen: Meanwhile, Steven Erikson and Ian Cameron Esslemont are upwards of 15,000 pages over 16 books plus a few novellas during their free time over the past 12 years.

Which is also a problem. I read the first one and liked it fine, but no way do I see myself finishing all (10?, 12? ) enormous volumes.

if you made it through the first one at least give the second a try. The first book isn't that good in my opinion but books 2-10 are pretty awesome


The first one read like a novelization of a role playing system frankly..
 
2013-05-31 05:43:33 PM  

drewogatory: NathanAllen: Meanwhile, Steven Erikson and Ian Cameron Esslemont are upwards of 15,000 pages over 16 books plus a few novellas during their free time over the past 12 years.

Which is also a problem. I read the first one and liked it fine, but no way do I see myself finishing all (10?, 12? ) enormous volumes.


The difference is that the journey is so goddamned good and fun. There were very few times during my entire read that I felt like I couldn't wait to skip ahead(like every goddamned Frodo chapter in LOTR).  Plus, there's the Korbal Broach and Bauchelain novellas.  Easily the funniest shiat I've ever read.

Carth: Overall, I still think it was a win for fantasy fans. Without ASoIaF I don't think we'd have gotten Malazan or Joe Abercrombie's books. Sure it is really annoying he won't finish the damn books but he's already done enough good for the genre.


To a degree, I agree.  He kicked off the modern fantasy boom, so there is that.

Carth: if you made it through the first one at least give the second a try. The first book isn't that good in my opinion but books 2-10 are pretty awesome


It's much better once you've read the series, though, as you understand half the shiat they're saying.  That said, it was shoehorned in at the behest of the publisher to establish certain things.  It also had awful cover art.
 
2013-05-31 05:44:38 PM  

drewogatory: The first one read like a novelization of a role playing system frankly..


The second one reads like a better written version of The Black Company and has one of the more memorable story arcs I've read
 
2013-05-31 05:48:17 PM  

bhcompy: drewogatory: The first one read like a novelization of a role playing system frankly..

The second one reads like a better written version of The Black Company and has one of the more memorable story arcs I've read


I'll give it a shot, but being better written than a Glen Cook series is damning with faint praise.
 
2013-05-31 05:55:40 PM  

drewogatory: bhcompy: drewogatory: The first one read like a novelization of a role playing system frankly..

The second one reads like a better written version of The Black Company and has one of the more memorable story arcs I've read

I'll give it a shot, but being better written than a Glen Cook series is damning with faint praise.


Erikson has Guy G Kay's literary capability with Glen Cook's characterizations and conversation plus a little Zelazny wackiness thrown in.  Good blend, imho
 
2013-05-31 06:04:10 PM  

Ned Stark: Cry more. You aren't owed anything.


But I bet he's got a great big advance that he'd like to keep...
 
2013-05-31 06:20:45 PM  

drewogatory: NathanAllen: Meanwhile, Steven Erikson and Ian Cameron Esslemont are upwards of 15,000 pages over 16 books plus a few novellas during their free time over the past 12 years.

Which is also a problem. I read the first one and liked it fine, but no way do I see myself finishing all (10?, 12? ) enormous volumes.


Ten in the first series - Books of Malazan the Fallen
Five so far in the companion series
One so far in the Kharkanas Trilogy

Working on re-reading the series, since to be honest you will miss a lot of what is going on, also connecting to his writing style is greatly helped after you start to get a picture of the World.

Book Two is standalone one of the greatest Fantasy novels out there. Most of the charachters in Gardens of the Moon don't show up again until Book 3, which mostly follows a pattern. characters are introduced and then take a vacation for a book. It gets a little more complicated when you're on books 8, 9, and 10 since while the reveals all happen they seem to get piled up a bit.

Similar to The First Law series and later novels; if you can get past the first segment you will really appreciate the series. Gardens of the Moon is right up there with up until Logan puts down his cooking pot in The Blade Itself.
 
2013-05-31 11:40:12 PM  

Ned Stark: Cagey B: Ned Stark: We'll all already know the ending though.

everyone gets eaten by others.

Honestly, that should be the way it ends. It would make sense. The various factions of Westeros are far too busy tearing each other down to unify in any meaningful way once the true threat breaches The Wall. Daenerys Targaryen could maybe do something about it, but the bout of Sudden Onset Stupidity that she caught in Meereen will prevent her from building ships of any sort. There will be a dragon in Westeros, but only because Victarion Greyjoy yoinked it, and he'll be too busy using it to burn Euron to ash, stacking the ashes up into a little pile, and burning the ashes again, to help out.

Oh, and also, Melisandre will try to raise Jon Snow, but he'll have warg'd into the first thing around in order to save his life, and thus will be forced spend the rest of the series in the body of a wandering Great Dane, trying in vain to rally the Night's Watch in a Scooby-Doo voice.

Oh, the nights watch is already beyond farked. I mean, I can understand what the conservative faction was on about, Jon did betray everything the watch had stood for for a few centuries.

Its just... their sense of timing is awful. Thousands of wildlings are through the wall. The king who had been backing the watch appears to have bit it. A few hundred wildlings have just agreed to follow Jon on a suicide mission and are all presently armed and only a hundred or so yards away. RAMSEY GODDAMN BOLTON has just said he's personally coming to the wall in force if Jon show. Who the hell would pick this moment to launch a coup?


Simple if Jon dies no suicide mission and you can make good with Bolton by tossing him Jon's corpse. Its more of saving your own ass rather than a coup
 
2013-05-31 11:52:58 PM  

ShadowKamui: Simple if Jon dies no suicide mission


But still a hundred+ people who thought riding off with Jon and dieing was a good idea and who are presently armed to the teeth just a brisk walk away from the corpse. also, their many many thousands of friends all around you. You see the difficulty, yeah?

and you can make good with Bolton by tossing him Jon's corpse.

You might be able to. I certainly wouldn't want to place bets on that. Better to let Jon ride off and let that conversation happen far away. That may just be OOC knowledge talking. Dunno how widely known Ramsey's madness is.
 
2013-06-01 01:22:33 AM  

shoegaze99: enderthexenocide: but i'm a writer myself (albeit an unpublished one) so i know how it feels to build up tons and tons of plot and not being able to whittle it down to a workable storyline.

Being that you're not a professional, it's understandable that this is a skill you're still working on developing. Absolutely no shame in that.

George RR Martin is a professional with decades of experience. He ought to have overcome this hurdle a long, long time ago.


stephen king has been writing novels for more than thirty years and he still can't write a satisfying ending to save his own life.  writing isn't a skill like riding a bike, that once you've done it you can just do it.  it's an ever-evolving process, and it depends on the story you're working on.  martin simply wrote himself into a bit of a corner because he expanded the storyline too much, something like that isn't a "hurdle" he should have overcome.  he had no way to know back in book 2 that he should have left out a few details because they would complicate his narrative too much in book 5 which he hadn't even started thinking about writing yet.  few writers set out to write a series of books with the plot outline written in stone, so its not uncommon for the series to get longer and add books as it goes on.  people in this thread have pointed out the most glaring example of this: the wheel of time.  but older sci-fi series like dune and riverworld had the same problem, they were envisioned as 2 or 3 books and eventually wound up as 5 or 6.
 
2013-06-01 08:45:28 AM  

enderthexenocide: writing isn't a skill like riding a bike, that once you've done it you can just do it.


Yes, it is.

enderthexenocide: something like that isn't a "hurdle" he should have overcome


Yes, it is.
 
2013-06-01 08:44:17 PM  
Ok, at least he has cut back on his appearances. A year or so ago he was doing 18 conventions a year. He's only got 6 more scheduled this year.

I have no problem biatching about the lag time between books. I've been reading this since a year before it was published (got a galley copy in 1995) and I've sat through his publish dates unfulfilled. I can understand writer's block but when you state you have pretty much written the next two books and that all you have to do is sort the chapters between east and west....then do so and don't take 18 goddammed months to kick the 4th book and then another 6 years to publish the 5th.


Game of Thrones 1996
A Clash of Kings 1998
A Storm of Swords 2000
A Feast of Crows 2005
A Dance with Dragons 2011

Yes ranting...but I've been ranting about this since 2000
 
2013-06-01 09:32:48 PM  

Moodybastard: Ok, at least he has cut back on his appearances. A year or so ago he was doing 18 conventions a year. He's only got 6 more scheduled this year.

I have no problem biatching about the lag time between books. I've been reading this since a year before it was published (got a galley copy in 1995) and I've sat through his publish dates unfulfilled. I can understand writer's block but when you state you have pretty much written the next two books and that all you have to do is sort the chapters between east and west....then do so and don't take 18 goddammed months to kick the 4th book and then another 6 years to publish the 5th.


Game of Thrones 1996
A Clash of Kings 1998
A Storm of Swords 2000
A Feast of Crows 2005
A Dance with Dragons 2011

Yes ranting...but I've been ranting about this since 2000


That's why many of us switched to Malazan..

Gardens of the Moon 1999
Deadhouse Gates 2000
Memories of Ice 2001
House of Chains 2002
*Blood Follows 2002
+Night of Knives 2004
Midnight Tides 2004
*The Healthy Dead 2004
The Bonehunters 2006
Reaper's Gale 2007
*The Lees of Laughter's End 2007
+Return of the Crimson Guard 2008
Toll the Hounds 2008
Dust of Dreams 2009
*Crack'd Pot Trail 2009
+Stonewielder 2010
The Crippled God 2011
+Orb, Sceptre, Throne 2012
Forge of Darkness 2012
+Blood and Bone 2012

* - Novella
+ - Esslemont novel

/never realized it was so much
 
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