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(Flavorwire)   Blogging about The Great Gatsby, offering fans movie recommendations and eight more activities George R.R. Martin is currently doing instead of writing the next installment of A Song of Ice and Fire. Someone needs to focus, stat   (flavorwire.com) divider line 73
    More: Fail, George R. R. Martin, Song of Ice, The Great Gatsby, eternal flame, coffee-table books  
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1442 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 31 May 2013 at 10:31 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-31 10:35:21 AM  
Now the regular people care.  Welcome to the fantasy reader's life for the past decade
 
2013-05-31 10:37:42 AM  
The only "Stat" that Martin is going to here is the nurse yelling for some meds to help him recover in the emergency room. That man does not look too healthy nor young.
 
2013-05-31 10:38:12 AM  
I'd prefer that he wait until he has something good to write than force himself to bash out a couple of thousand pages to keep up with the show.
 
2013-05-31 10:39:37 AM  
Honestly he COULD BE DONE, but do you think HBO and Random House are just going to allow it to go published without a shiat LOAD of tie ins?

Hell my money is that it won't get released until the day after the last episode of GoT that deals with the last pages of ADWD.
 
2013-05-31 10:41:31 AM  
Cry more. You aren't owed anything.
 
2013-05-31 10:41:57 AM  
He's going to go all Robert Jordan on us, I know it.

/lose weight!
 
2013-05-31 10:47:02 AM  
It's called procrastination.    It's what you do when you don't have a farking clue how to complete your task.
 
2013-05-31 10:47:21 AM  
 
2013-05-31 10:48:07 AM  

jakomo002: He's going to go all Robert Jordan on us, I know it.

/lose weight!


The difference is,  he has explicitly said he will leave instructions refusing to let anyone finish it if he dies before it's done.  RJ's widow at least found Brandon Sanderson to finish the job and he did fairly well IMO.
 
2013-05-31 10:49:47 AM  

balfourk: The only "Stat" that Martin is going to here is the nurse yelling for some meds to help him recover in the emergency room. That man does not look too healthy nor young.


This

Ned Stark: Cry more. You aren't owed anything.


and That.

From what I understand, he has already spoken with HBO that, in case he isn't able to finish writing the books due to having to take time off to deliver Christmas presents to all the good little boys and girls (or dying), they know where he intends on taking the series. They won't have book material to work with, but they have the general blueprints so they can do up to season... 7? I think? Something like that.
 
2013-05-31 10:51:43 AM  
So just as a thought exercise, if he keeled over tomorrow, who would you like to see finish the books?
 
2013-05-31 10:52:12 AM  
I am not looking forward to the smug storm from show-only viewers when the show concludes before the books are done. It won't be pretty
 
2013-05-31 10:52:12 AM  

Ned Stark


Cry more. You aren't owed anything.


You're just bitter because a ponce like Joffrey had you executed.
 
2013-05-31 10:53:27 AM  

Tyrone Slothrop: So just as a thought exercise, if he keeled over tomorrow, who would you like to see finish the books?


img534.imageshack.us
 
2013-05-31 10:53:35 AM  

OldRod: jakomo002: He's going to go all Robert Jordan on us, I know it.

/lose weight!

The difference is,  he has explicitly said he will leave instructions refusing to let anyone finish it if he dies before it's done.  RJ's widow at least found Brandon Sanderson to finish the job and he did fairly well IMO.


I was hoping George R.R. Martin would just ask the contributors to the Wild Cards series to finish it up.  I thought that project was pretty good.
 
2013-05-31 10:54:42 AM  
img822.imageshack.us

Where is she when we need her!!
 
2013-05-31 10:58:08 AM  
With 5+ years between books, I've pretty much accepted the inevitable that he's never going to finish them and that the only way we're going to see how the story ends is with the HBO series.  So I guess I'm OK with George working on his Silmarllion.
 
2013-05-31 10:58:30 AM  

Ned Stark: Cry more. You aren't owed anything.


Well played.
 
2013-05-31 11:01:40 AM  

Ned Stark: Cry more. You aren't owed anything.


No need to lose your head over it.
 
2013-05-31 11:01:52 AM  

RoxtarRyan: balfourk: The only "Stat" that Martin is going to here is the nurse yelling for some meds to help him recover in the emergency room. That man does not look too healthy nor young.

This

Ned Stark: Cry more. You aren't owed anything.

and That.

From what I understand, he has already spoken with HBO that, in case he isn't able to finish writing the books due to having to take time off to deliver Christmas presents to all the good little boys and girls (or dying), they know where he intends on taking the series. They won't have book material to work with, but they have the general blueprints so they can do up to season... 7? I think? Something like that.


We'll all already know the ending though.

everyone gets eaten by others.
 
2013-05-31 11:04:31 AM  

OldRod: jakomo002: He's going to go all Robert Jordan on us, I know it.

/lose weight!

The difference is,  he has explicitly said he will leave instructions refusing to let anyone finish it if he dies before it's done.  RJ's widow at least found Brandon Sanderson to finish the job and he did fairly well IMO.


The version I've heard is that he's actually got a guy lined up to finish the series: the man has copies of all his notes and everything.

But whatever. Overentitled fans will whine all the same.
 
2013-05-31 11:05:34 AM  

Ned Stark: Cry more. You aren't owed anything.


Is that what you told Jon Snow when he asked you who is momma was?  That's kinda mean.
 
2013-05-31 11:09:14 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-05-31 11:12:17 AM  

Tyrone Slothrop: So just as a thought exercise, if he keeled over tomorrow, who would you like to see finish the books?


Joe Abercrombie. Without a doubt. Still, I can't believe anyone is still holding out hope for this ever being finished. I've already given up twice, once waiting for Crows and the final time after finishing it. Maybe I'll pick up the series again if the final book is ever published, but I just don't give a shiat anymore.
 
2013-05-31 11:30:00 AM  
Guess my hopes that GRRM would get locked in an empty room with only periodic feedings of low cal foods so that he could finish the %$#^&^* books already are dashed beyond repair.
/liked a  few things about the show but adore, love, and devour the books
//yep, I'm one of them
 
2013-05-31 11:50:19 AM  
Surprised there aren't more GRRM white knights in here.
 
2013-05-31 11:50:59 AM  

DoBeDoBeDo: Honestly he COULD BE DONE


No. No, he couldn't. He was creeping along at a snail's pace a decade before HBO was even a glimmer in his eye. None of this is unusual. It's par for the course.
 
2013-05-31 12:05:29 PM  
First three books flowed like water, he had a ton of story to tell and he told it well.  And then it just stopped, he hd ideas he had random thoughts how to continue, and scribbled them out, and crossed them out, and restarted etc.

Truth is the story is done, he has no idea to get from book three to the end, the last two books attest to that, what a mess.
 
2013-05-31 12:11:56 PM  

gorgon38: First three books flowed like water, he had a ton of story to tell and he told it well.  And then it just stopped, he hd ideas he had random thoughts how to continue, and scribbled them out, and crossed them out, and restarted etc.

Truth is the story is done, he has no idea to get from book three to the end, the last two books attest to that, what a mess.


Just because he added a bunch of unneeded bullsh** (looking at you Dorn), doesn't mean he has no idea.  What the man doesn't have is an editor to tell him "No, these chapters suck stop writing about those characters".
 
2013-05-31 12:30:46 PM  

bloatboy: [i.imgur.com image 760x596]


Awesome.  Let's buy one of those for George.  Maybe she can make him exercise a bit as well.
 
2013-05-31 12:44:30 PM  
 
2013-05-31 12:46:20 PM  

ShadowKamui: gorgon38: First three books flowed like water, he had a ton of story to tell and he told it well.  And then it just stopped, he hd ideas he had random thoughts how to continue, and scribbled them out, and crossed them out, and restarted etc.

Truth is the story is done, he has no idea to get from book three to the end, the last two books attest to that, what a mess.

Just because he added a bunch of unneeded bullsh** (looking at you Dorn), doesn't mean he has no idea.  What the man doesn't have is an editor to tell him "No, these chapters suck stop writing about those characters".


Seriously? Among my group of friends, we think the Dorne chapters are some of the best. I'm thinking of one in particular in AFFC that just gave me chills.

If you don't like the books, don't read them. Simple as that.
 
2013-05-31 12:47:13 PM  

ShadowKamui: gorgon38: First three books flowed like water, he had a ton of story to tell and he told it well.  And then it just stopped, he hd ideas he had random thoughts how to continue, and scribbled them out, and crossed them out, and restarted etc.

Truth is the story is done, he has no idea to get from book three to the end, the last two books attest to that, what a mess.

Just because he added a bunch of unneeded bullsh** (looking at you Dorn), doesn't mean he has no idea.  What the man doesn't have is an editor to tell him "No, these chapters suck stop writing about those characters".


Martin is known to say the story grows with the telling.  What was originally a trilogy is now a heptology.  He's has writers block or indifference since A Storm of Swords.  Editor or not, he doesn't know how to get to the end from the midway point in the written word.  I anticipate he may let the show handle it instead, since crafting a script to meet your vision when already given limits for time and money is much easier than crafting a book when you have no limits at all and people bugging you every day to get it done.
 
2013-05-31 12:49:03 PM  
The thing that got me was how he ended both books four and five on cliffhangers of varying importance. The first three books had satisfying climaxes, but four and five had no real satisfactory conclusions, just "Oh, this character is in mortal peril" or "What important thing did this character shout?" or whatever.
 
2013-05-31 12:50:12 PM  

Bunny Deville: Seriously? Among my group of friends, we think the Dorne chapters are some of the best. I'm thinking of one in particular in AFFC that just gave me chills.


The Dorne characters are very compelling(including some of the ones that are only mentioned in passing, like the Darkstar, Gerold Dayne), but the story being told isn't terribly necessary.  There is a lot of fluff in there.
 
2013-05-31 12:50:42 PM  

Ned Stark: We'll all already know the ending though.

everyone gets eaten by others.


Honestly, that should be the way it ends. It would make sense. The various factions of Westeros are far too busy tearing each other down to unify in any meaningful way once the true threat breaches The Wall. Daenerys Targaryen could maybe do something about it, but the bout of Sudden Onset Stupidity that she caught in Meereen will prevent her from building ships of any sort. There will be a dragon in Westeros, but only because Victarion Greyjoy yoinked it, and he'll be too busy using it to burn Euron to ash, stacking the ashes up into a little pile, and burning the ashes again, to help out.

Oh, and also, Melisandre will try to raise Jon Snow, but he'll have warg'd into the first thing around in order to save his life, and thus will be forced spend the rest of the series in the body of a wandering Great Dane, trying in vain to rally the Night's Watch in a Scooby-Doo voice.
 
2013-05-31 12:54:35 PM  

bhcompy: Bunny Deville: Seriously? Among my group of friends, we think the Dorne chapters are some of the best. I'm thinking of one in particular in AFFC that just gave me chills.

The Dorne characters are very compelling(including some of the ones that are only mentioned in passing, like the Darkstar, Gerold Dayne), but the story being told isn't terribly necessary.  There is a lot of fluff in there.


I'm willing to see how that angle plays out. Doran is playing a long game, one which appears to coming to a conclusion soon. I think mostly it's just that people are pissed at having to wait to see why things are significant.
 
2013-05-31 01:09:56 PM  

bhcompy: Bunny Deville: Seriously? Among my group of friends, we think the Dorne chapters are some of the best. I'm thinking of one in particular in AFFC that just gave me chills.

The Dorne characters are very compelling(including some of the ones that are only mentioned in passing, like the Darkstar, Gerold Dayne), but the story being told isn't terribly necessary.  There is a lot of fluff in there.


You can't know that. You just can't. I've heard certain theories about both characters that make it absolut y necessary that their story be told.
 
2013-05-31 01:11:44 PM  

Cagey B: bhcompy: Bunny Deville: Seriously? Among my group of friends, we think the Dorne chapters are some of the best. I'm thinking of one in particular in AFFC that just gave me chills.

The Dorne characters are very compelling(including some of the ones that are only mentioned in passing, like the Darkstar, Gerold Dayne), but the story being told isn't terribly necessary.  There is a lot of fluff in there.

I'm willing to see how that angle plays out. Doran is playing a long game, one which appears to coming to a conclusion soon. I think mostly it's just that people are pissed at having to wait to see why things are significant.


Or we could have him rush it and end up with the Dark Tower 5, 6, and 7. I'm okay to wait.
 
2013-05-31 01:16:26 PM  
i think the problem was also the fact that books 1 through 3 led up to such a big series of amazing climaxes, but books 4 and 5 were sort of dealing with the aftermath of all of that and building up to something else.  so it seems like books 4 and 5 were boring compared to the first three.

but i'm a writer myself (albeit an unpublished one) so i know how it feels to build up tons and tons of plot and not being able to whittle it down to a workable storyline.  he let himself introduce too many characters and now it hampers the narrative because there are so many different points of view to deal with.  and those are huge books, so it's not like he can just crank out 1000 pages in three weeks.  that takes months and months of writing and rewriting to get that much done.  so i would expect it to take him two or three years to write the next book.  however, i would be absolutely stunned if he finishes it by 2017.  he's not a fast writer and he has a million other things going on right now, so the fans are just going to have to deal with that.

it's still the best fantasy series i've ever read.
 
2013-05-31 01:20:34 PM  

enderthexenocide: but i'm a writer myself (albeit an unpublished one) so i know how it feels to build up tons and tons of plot and not being able to whittle it down to a workable storyline.


Being that you're not a professional, it's understandable that this is a skill you're still working on developing. Absolutely no shame in that.

George RR Martin is a professional with decades of experience. He ought to have overcome this hurdle a long, long time ago.
 
j4x
2013-05-31 01:33:21 PM  
The Dany chapters in Dance were awful and he ruined Tyrion.
 
2013-05-31 01:43:22 PM  
I found the books so unutterably soul-crushing and riddled with senseless horror that the strongest emotion they evoked in me was relief that I leave in a solidly blue state in 2013.

Is the TV show worth getting into or does it accurately reflect the yawning gulf of deadening, unremitting misery and depression of the books?

(I'll be asking this in every RR Martin thread until I get a satisfactory answer, btw)
 
2013-05-31 02:27:57 PM  

Bunny Deville: bhcompy: Bunny Deville: Seriously? Among my group of friends, we think the Dorne chapters are some of the best. I'm thinking of one in particular in AFFC that just gave me chills.

The Dorne characters are very compelling(including some of the ones that are only mentioned in passing, like the Darkstar, Gerold Dayne), but the story being told isn't terribly necessary.  There is a lot of fluff in there.

You can't know that. You just can't. I've heard certain theories about both characters that make it absolut y necessary that their story be told.


I can't know that, but I know that with the Wheel of Time it caused many many many individuals to toss the books out, and Martin avoided that trap mostly within the first 3 books.

If you need to tell a backstory/sidestory that is this involved and that pulls you from the story this much, release a novella.  We don't need to know every detail to get the gist of a situation.  If you truly must do that, do it in a compelling fashion, like Steven Erikson did with the Letheras books in the Malazan series.  I shouldn't need to tolerate something for the sake of the story.  If it can't be crafted in a way that enhances the story, it shouldn't be part of it(of course that's the editor's job)
 
2013-05-31 02:30:22 PM  

willfullyobscure: I found the books so unutterably soul-crushing and riddled with senseless horror that the strongest emotion they evoked in me was relief that I leave in a solidly blue state in 2013.

Is the TV show worth getting into or does it accurately reflect the yawning gulf of deadening, unremitting misery and depression of the books?

(I'll be asking this in every RR Martin thread until I get a satisfactory answer, btw)


Yes. If that answer isn't satisfactory, then no.
 
2013-05-31 03:07:41 PM  

willfullyobscure: I found the books so unutterably soul-crushing and riddled with senseless horror that the strongest emotion they evoked in me was relief that I leave in a solidly blue state in 2013.

Is the TV show worth getting into or does it accurately reflect the yawning gulf of deadening, unremitting misery and depression of the books?

(I'll be asking this in every RR Martin thread until I get a satisfactory answer, btw)


Except for a few details here and there, it's exactly the same story.  The format makes events come more quickly, but that doesn't really change the basic feel of the story.

If you felt that negatively about the books, it's unlikely you'll enjoy the series.
 
2013-05-31 03:26:29 PM  

bhcompy: If you need to tell a backstory/sidestory that is this involved and that pulls you from the story this much, release a novella.  We don't need to know every detail to get the gist of a situation.  If you truly must do that, do it in a compelling fashion, like Steven Erikson did with the Letheras books in the Malazan series.  I shouldn't need to tolerate something for the sake of the story.  If it can't be crafted in a way that enhances the story, it shouldn't be part of it(of course that's the editor's job)


I agree that he could be more succinct in places, but it's really hard to judge what will be important until the work is completed.  GRRM is big on hiding the nail that the kingdom was lost for want of.   He wants it to be another background detail until all of a sudden the consequences smack you in the face.  I mean, how Tywin dealt with Tryrion's first wife, before the series even started, has had a huge impact on the Seven Kingdoms.
 
2013-05-31 03:31:52 PM  

LiquidTester: willfullyobscure: I found the books so unutterably soul-crushing and riddled with senseless horror that the strongest emotion they evoked in me was relief that I leave in a solidly blue state in 2013.

Is the TV show worth getting into or does it accurately reflect the yawning gulf of deadening, unremitting misery and depression of the books?

(I'll be asking this in every RR Martin thread until I get a satisfactory answer, btw)

Yes. If that answer isn't satisfactory, then no.


okay.jpg

Abner Doon: willfullyobscure: I found the books so unutterably soul-crushing and riddled with senseless horror that the strongest emotion they evoked in me was relief that I leave in a solidly blue state in 2013.

Is the TV show worth getting into or does it accurately reflect the yawning gulf of deadening, unremitting misery and depression of the books?

(I'll be asking this in every RR Martin thread until I get a satisfactory answer, btw)

Except for a few details here and there, it's exactly the same story.  The format makes events come more quickly, but that doesn't really change the basic feel of the story.

If you felt that negatively about the books, it's unlikely you'll enjoy the series.


interesting. I find a show acted and directed by other humans can have a radically different effect than reading a story, and can successfully make objectively awful material uplifting thanks to dramatic effect and tone. Stephen King books are usually a dreary slog but can be made into very watchable movies, for example. Or blowing up the Death Star- on paper, the equivalent of Horoshima or Dresden- on screen, it's cathartic and climatic.
 
2013-05-31 03:52:04 PM  

balfourk: The only "Stat" that Martin is going to here is the nurse yelling for some meds to help him recover in the emergency room. That man does not look too healthy nor young.


they forgot:

11: Recovering from amputations due to diabetes
 
2013-05-31 04:23:41 PM  

Bunny Deville: George R. R. Martin is not your biatch.


Gaiman makes one important mistake in that argument. he assumes readers purchased and received "Game of Thrones" and therefore GRRM doesn't owe them anything. Many readers however purchased "A song of ice and fire part 1" which has an implied assumption that there will be a part 2, part 3 etc until the series is finished. By going nearly 2 decades without finishing the damn series and 4-5 years between books he is not only ignoring that agreement he is almost in uncharted territory for a popular fantasy author.

Gaiman never addresses the question "Would readers have paid $10 for a book if GRRM said "This series is never going to be finished" or "The series won't be finished until 2020" Would people started it back in 1996 if they knew it still wouldn't be finished today? I know I wouldn't have I'd have put it off and read something else and I"m sure a lot of other people would have too.
 
2013-05-31 04:38:20 PM  
 
2013-05-31 04:43:41 PM  

Cagey B: Ned Stark: We'll all already know the ending though.

everyone gets eaten by others.

Honestly, that should be the way it ends. It would make sense. The various factions of Westeros are far too busy tearing each other down to unify in any meaningful way once the true threat breaches The Wall. Daenerys Targaryen could maybe do something about it, but the bout of Sudden Onset Stupidity that she caught in Meereen will prevent her from building ships of any sort. There will be a dragon in Westeros, but only because Victarion Greyjoy yoinked it, and he'll be too busy using it to burn Euron to ash, stacking the ashes up into a little pile, and burning the ashes again, to help out.

Oh, and also, Melisandre will try to raise Jon Snow, but he'll have warg'd into the first thing around in order to save his life, and thus will be forced spend the rest of the series in the body of a wandering Great Dane, trying in vain to rally the Night's Watch in a Scooby-Doo voice.


Oh, the nights watch is already beyond farked. I mean, I can understand what the conservative faction was on about, Jon did betray everything the watch had stood for for a few centuries.

Its just... their sense of timing is awful. Thousands of wildlings are through the wall. The king who had been backing the watch appears to have bit it. A few hundred wildlings have just agreed to follow Jon on a suicide mission and are all presently armed and only a hundred or so yards away. RAMSEY GODDAMN BOLTON has just said he's personally coming to the wall in force if Jon show. Who the hell would pick this moment to launch a coup?
 
2013-05-31 04:46:24 PM  

Carth: Bunny Deville: George R. R. Martin is not your biatch.

Gaiman makes one important mistake in that argument. he assumes readers purchased and received "Game of Thrones" and therefore GRRM doesn't owe them anything. Many readers however purchased "A song of ice and fire part 1" which has an implied assumption that there will be a part 2, part 3 etc until the series is finished. By going nearly 2 decades without finishing the damn series and 4-5 years between books he is not only ignoring that agreement he is almost in uncharted territory for a popular fantasy author.

Gaiman never addresses the question "Would readers have paid $10 for a book if GRRM said "This series is never going to be finished" or "The series won't be finished until 2020" Would people started it back in 1996 if they knew it still wouldn't be finished today? I know I wouldn't have I'd have put it off and read something else and I"m sure a lot of other people would have too.


Particularly since the books had every future book in the series listed as (Forthcoming) in the front of the book.  Grew from 3 to 4 to 5 etc.  Of course newer editions have updated the forthcoming books list, but, regardless, the implied promise was made.  I wouldn't say that Martin should be crucified for it, but it's bad form.
 
2013-05-31 05:00:39 PM  

bhcompy: Carth: Bunny Deville: George R. R. Martin is not your biatch.

Gaiman makes one important mistake in that argument. he assumes readers purchased and received "Game of Thrones" and therefore GRRM doesn't owe them anything. Many readers however purchased "A song of ice and fire part 1" which has an implied assumption that there will be a part 2, part 3 etc until the series is finished. By going nearly 2 decades without finishing the damn series and 4-5 years between books he is not only ignoring that agreement he is almost in uncharted territory for a popular fantasy author.

Gaiman never addresses the question "Would readers have paid $10 for a book if GRRM said "This series is never going to be finished" or "The series won't be finished until 2020" Would people started it back in 1996 if they knew it still wouldn't be finished today? I know I wouldn't have I'd have put it off and read something else and I"m sure a lot of other people would have too.

Particularly since the books had every future book in the series listed as (Forthcoming) in the front of the book.  Grew from 3 to 4 to 5 etc.  Of course newer editions have updated the forthcoming books list, but, regardless, the implied promise was made.  I wouldn't say that Martin should be crucified for it, but it's bad form.


Overall, I still think it was a win for fantasy fans. Without ASoIaF I don't think we'd have gotten Malazan or Joe Abercrombie's books. Sure it is really annoying he won't finish the damn books but he's already done enough good for the genre.
 
2013-05-31 05:10:37 PM  

Ned Stark: Who the hell would pick this moment to launch a coup?


They've put a lot of faith in the upcoming Dolorous Edd administration.
 
2013-05-31 05:11:19 PM  
Meanwhile, Steven Erikson and Ian Cameron Esslemont are upwards of 15,000 pages over 16 books plus a few novellas during their free time over the past 12 years.

Martin and Jordan are in a class by themselves, though Patrick Rothfuss may out-do them all. Something like 9 years to write his first book, then another four to polish the second and who knows for the third.
 
2013-05-31 05:18:33 PM  

NathanAllen: Meanwhile, Steven Erikson and Ian Cameron Esslemont are upwards of 15,000 pages over 16 books plus a few novellas during their free time over the past 12 years.


Which is also a problem. I read the first one and liked it fine, but no way do I see myself finishing all (10?, 12? ) enormous volumes.
 
2013-05-31 05:21:38 PM  

drewogatory: NathanAllen: Meanwhile, Steven Erikson and Ian Cameron Esslemont are upwards of 15,000 pages over 16 books plus a few novellas during their free time over the past 12 years.

Which is also a problem. I read the first one and liked it fine, but no way do I see myself finishing all (10?, 12? ) enormous volumes.


if you made it through the first one at least give the second a try. The first book isn't that good in my opinion but books 2-10 are pretty awesome
 
2013-05-31 05:27:00 PM  
After the last book I really wouldn't care if he never finished the series. In my mind, it ended with Book 3.
 
2013-05-31 05:35:38 PM  
Ned Stark:

Its just... their sense of timing is awful. Thousands of wildlings are through the wall. The king who had been backing the watch appears to have bit it. A few hundred wildlings have just agreed to follow Jon on a suicide mission and are all presently armed and only a hundred or so yards away. RAMSEY GODDAMN BOLTON has just said he's personally coming to the wall in force if Jon show. Who the hell would pick this moment to launch a coup?

The only consistent thing in the whole set of novels is that haters gonna hate.  Asshole behavior and the problems it causes are what moves the events in that world.  Good deeds are ignored or small potatoes, but dick moves change the fates of nations.
 
2013-05-31 05:40:53 PM  

Carth: drewogatory: NathanAllen: Meanwhile, Steven Erikson and Ian Cameron Esslemont are upwards of 15,000 pages over 16 books plus a few novellas during their free time over the past 12 years.

Which is also a problem. I read the first one and liked it fine, but no way do I see myself finishing all (10?, 12? ) enormous volumes.

if you made it through the first one at least give the second a try. The first book isn't that good in my opinion but books 2-10 are pretty awesome


The first one read like a novelization of a role playing system frankly..
 
2013-05-31 05:43:33 PM  

drewogatory: NathanAllen: Meanwhile, Steven Erikson and Ian Cameron Esslemont are upwards of 15,000 pages over 16 books plus a few novellas during their free time over the past 12 years.

Which is also a problem. I read the first one and liked it fine, but no way do I see myself finishing all (10?, 12? ) enormous volumes.


The difference is that the journey is so goddamned good and fun. There were very few times during my entire read that I felt like I couldn't wait to skip ahead(like every goddamned Frodo chapter in LOTR).  Plus, there's the Korbal Broach and Bauchelain novellas.  Easily the funniest shiat I've ever read.

Carth: Overall, I still think it was a win for fantasy fans. Without ASoIaF I don't think we'd have gotten Malazan or Joe Abercrombie's books. Sure it is really annoying he won't finish the damn books but he's already done enough good for the genre.


To a degree, I agree.  He kicked off the modern fantasy boom, so there is that.

Carth: if you made it through the first one at least give the second a try. The first book isn't that good in my opinion but books 2-10 are pretty awesome


It's much better once you've read the series, though, as you understand half the shiat they're saying.  That said, it was shoehorned in at the behest of the publisher to establish certain things.  It also had awful cover art.
 
2013-05-31 05:44:38 PM  

drewogatory: The first one read like a novelization of a role playing system frankly..


The second one reads like a better written version of The Black Company and has one of the more memorable story arcs I've read
 
2013-05-31 05:48:17 PM  

bhcompy: drewogatory: The first one read like a novelization of a role playing system frankly..

The second one reads like a better written version of The Black Company and has one of the more memorable story arcs I've read


I'll give it a shot, but being better written than a Glen Cook series is damning with faint praise.
 
2013-05-31 05:55:40 PM  

drewogatory: bhcompy: drewogatory: The first one read like a novelization of a role playing system frankly..

The second one reads like a better written version of The Black Company and has one of the more memorable story arcs I've read

I'll give it a shot, but being better written than a Glen Cook series is damning with faint praise.


Erikson has Guy G Kay's literary capability with Glen Cook's characterizations and conversation plus a little Zelazny wackiness thrown in.  Good blend, imho
 
2013-05-31 06:04:10 PM  

Ned Stark: Cry more. You aren't owed anything.


But I bet he's got a great big advance that he'd like to keep...
 
2013-05-31 06:20:45 PM  

drewogatory: NathanAllen: Meanwhile, Steven Erikson and Ian Cameron Esslemont are upwards of 15,000 pages over 16 books plus a few novellas during their free time over the past 12 years.

Which is also a problem. I read the first one and liked it fine, but no way do I see myself finishing all (10?, 12? ) enormous volumes.


Ten in the first series - Books of Malazan the Fallen
Five so far in the companion series
One so far in the Kharkanas Trilogy

Working on re-reading the series, since to be honest you will miss a lot of what is going on, also connecting to his writing style is greatly helped after you start to get a picture of the World.

Book Two is standalone one of the greatest Fantasy novels out there. Most of the charachters in Gardens of the Moon don't show up again until Book 3, which mostly follows a pattern. characters are introduced and then take a vacation for a book. It gets a little more complicated when you're on books 8, 9, and 10 since while the reveals all happen they seem to get piled up a bit.

Similar to The First Law series and later novels; if you can get past the first segment you will really appreciate the series. Gardens of the Moon is right up there with up until Logan puts down his cooking pot in The Blade Itself.
 
2013-05-31 11:40:12 PM  

Ned Stark: Cagey B: Ned Stark: We'll all already know the ending though.

everyone gets eaten by others.

Honestly, that should be the way it ends. It would make sense. The various factions of Westeros are far too busy tearing each other down to unify in any meaningful way once the true threat breaches The Wall. Daenerys Targaryen could maybe do something about it, but the bout of Sudden Onset Stupidity that she caught in Meereen will prevent her from building ships of any sort. There will be a dragon in Westeros, but only because Victarion Greyjoy yoinked it, and he'll be too busy using it to burn Euron to ash, stacking the ashes up into a little pile, and burning the ashes again, to help out.

Oh, and also, Melisandre will try to raise Jon Snow, but he'll have warg'd into the first thing around in order to save his life, and thus will be forced spend the rest of the series in the body of a wandering Great Dane, trying in vain to rally the Night's Watch in a Scooby-Doo voice.

Oh, the nights watch is already beyond farked. I mean, I can understand what the conservative faction was on about, Jon did betray everything the watch had stood for for a few centuries.

Its just... their sense of timing is awful. Thousands of wildlings are through the wall. The king who had been backing the watch appears to have bit it. A few hundred wildlings have just agreed to follow Jon on a suicide mission and are all presently armed and only a hundred or so yards away. RAMSEY GODDAMN BOLTON has just said he's personally coming to the wall in force if Jon show. Who the hell would pick this moment to launch a coup?


Simple if Jon dies no suicide mission and you can make good with Bolton by tossing him Jon's corpse. Its more of saving your own ass rather than a coup
 
2013-05-31 11:52:58 PM  

ShadowKamui: Simple if Jon dies no suicide mission


But still a hundred+ people who thought riding off with Jon and dieing was a good idea and who are presently armed to the teeth just a brisk walk away from the corpse. also, their many many thousands of friends all around you. You see the difficulty, yeah?

and you can make good with Bolton by tossing him Jon's corpse.

You might be able to. I certainly wouldn't want to place bets on that. Better to let Jon ride off and let that conversation happen far away. That may just be OOC knowledge talking. Dunno how widely known Ramsey's madness is.
 
2013-06-01 01:22:33 AM  

shoegaze99: enderthexenocide: but i'm a writer myself (albeit an unpublished one) so i know how it feels to build up tons and tons of plot and not being able to whittle it down to a workable storyline.

Being that you're not a professional, it's understandable that this is a skill you're still working on developing. Absolutely no shame in that.

George RR Martin is a professional with decades of experience. He ought to have overcome this hurdle a long, long time ago.


stephen king has been writing novels for more than thirty years and he still can't write a satisfying ending to save his own life.  writing isn't a skill like riding a bike, that once you've done it you can just do it.  it's an ever-evolving process, and it depends on the story you're working on.  martin simply wrote himself into a bit of a corner because he expanded the storyline too much, something like that isn't a "hurdle" he should have overcome.  he had no way to know back in book 2 that he should have left out a few details because they would complicate his narrative too much in book 5 which he hadn't even started thinking about writing yet.  few writers set out to write a series of books with the plot outline written in stone, so its not uncommon for the series to get longer and add books as it goes on.  people in this thread have pointed out the most glaring example of this: the wheel of time.  but older sci-fi series like dune and riverworld had the same problem, they were envisioned as 2 or 3 books and eventually wound up as 5 or 6.
 
2013-06-01 08:45:28 AM  

enderthexenocide: writing isn't a skill like riding a bike, that once you've done it you can just do it.


Yes, it is.

enderthexenocide: something like that isn't a "hurdle" he should have overcome


Yes, it is.
 
2013-06-01 08:44:17 PM  
Ok, at least he has cut back on his appearances. A year or so ago he was doing 18 conventions a year. He's only got 6 more scheduled this year.

I have no problem biatching about the lag time between books. I've been reading this since a year before it was published (got a galley copy in 1995) and I've sat through his publish dates unfulfilled. I can understand writer's block but when you state you have pretty much written the next two books and that all you have to do is sort the chapters between east and west....then do so and don't take 18 goddammed months to kick the 4th book and then another 6 years to publish the 5th.


Game of Thrones 1996
A Clash of Kings 1998
A Storm of Swords 2000
A Feast of Crows 2005
A Dance with Dragons 2011

Yes ranting...but I've been ranting about this since 2000
 
2013-06-01 09:32:48 PM  

Moodybastard: Ok, at least he has cut back on his appearances. A year or so ago he was doing 18 conventions a year. He's only got 6 more scheduled this year.

I have no problem biatching about the lag time between books. I've been reading this since a year before it was published (got a galley copy in 1995) and I've sat through his publish dates unfulfilled. I can understand writer's block but when you state you have pretty much written the next two books and that all you have to do is sort the chapters between east and west....then do so and don't take 18 goddammed months to kick the 4th book and then another 6 years to publish the 5th.


Game of Thrones 1996
A Clash of Kings 1998
A Storm of Swords 2000
A Feast of Crows 2005
A Dance with Dragons 2011

Yes ranting...but I've been ranting about this since 2000


That's why many of us switched to Malazan..

Gardens of the Moon 1999
Deadhouse Gates 2000
Memories of Ice 2001
House of Chains 2002
*Blood Follows 2002
+Night of Knives 2004
Midnight Tides 2004
*The Healthy Dead 2004
The Bonehunters 2006
Reaper's Gale 2007
*The Lees of Laughter's End 2007
+Return of the Crimson Guard 2008
Toll the Hounds 2008
Dust of Dreams 2009
*Crack'd Pot Trail 2009
+Stonewielder 2010
The Crippled God 2011
+Orb, Sceptre, Throne 2012
Forge of Darkness 2012
+Blood and Bone 2012

* - Novella
+ - Esslemont novel

/never realized it was so much
 
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