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(National Review)   We should simplify and reform the tax code, but a 'flat tax' is not the way to go, says....NRO?   (nationalreview.com) divider line 140
    More: Spiffy, Central and Eastern Europe, excise taxes, consumption tax, income taxes  
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1021 clicks; posted to Politics » on 30 May 2013 at 1:52 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-30 01:54:30 PM  
A fat cat tax is the way to go.
 
2013-05-30 01:55:14 PM  
Or "We've beaten the Flat Tax idea into the ground and we need a new scheme to make rich dudes' tax rates lower."
 
2013-05-30 01:56:47 PM  
We should simplify and reform the tax code, but a 'flat tax' is not the way to go, says....NRO?

Duh, they want to fix (as in rig) the tax code.  A flat tax would mean that they could no longer get away with things like corporate welfare and off-shore banking to evade taxes.
 
2013-05-30 01:57:18 PM  
Even a broken clock, etc...

/tax the wealthy please
//the poor are running out of money
 
2013-05-30 01:57:42 PM  

WTF Indeed: Or "We've beaten the Flat Tax idea into the ground and we need a new scheme to make rich dudes' tax rates lower."


Well, anyone who can do simple math has figured out that a flat tax is regressive.

The easier thing to do would be to quietly push for a(n even) lower capital gains tax, right?
 
2013-05-30 02:01:28 PM  

Smelly McUgly: WTF Indeed: Or "We've beaten the Flat Tax idea into the ground and we need a new scheme to make rich dudes' tax rates lower."

Well, anyone who can do simple math has figured out that a flat tax is regressive.

The easier thing to do would be to quietly push for a(n even) lower capital gains tax, right?


I would never be accepting of a Flat Tax, but I might be more receptive to a more even rate of taxation if there was literally no other form of taxation anywhere ever.
 
2013-05-30 02:02:10 PM  
One solution is to take the essentially flat consumption tax devised by economists Robert Hall and Alvin Rabushka and give it a progressive rate structure. Or we could combine a consumption tax with a flat income tax on wealthier Americans

Am I missing something or is this, from the NRO, not completely insane?
 
2013-05-30 02:03:05 PM  
The people who lobby for the tax preparation companies and tax attorneys will never let a flat tax go into being.  Of course, they can always start lobbying for new loopholes if this ever did pass.
 
2013-05-30 02:07:01 PM  
Institute a Negative Income Tax. All the joys of a "Flat Tax" coupled with the joys of just flat out paying people on welfare. Its a win/win!
 
2013-05-30 02:07:24 PM  

Bigdogdaddy: The people who lobby for the tax preparation companies and tax attorneys will never let a flat tax go into being


I would also think any company that relies on poor and lower middle class people to have discretionary spending would do the same.
 
2013-05-30 02:09:24 PM  
I'd be curious to see why, but I'm not clicking on that shiat.

But no, a flat tax is not the way to go when some billionaire or multi-death corp can pay a pittance and continue to cash in. Honestly, it's still that way without a flat tax, so yeah.
 
2013-05-30 02:12:01 PM  
Flat tax with nothing other than personal exemptions. As soon as you start making exceptions we end up right back where we are.
 
2013-05-30 02:13:47 PM  
NC's conservative legislature is proposing an across the board flat income tax rate. They increased the deduction limit but it was raised so high most people will not be able to benefit from the whole value.

Except the very rich, that is.
 
2013-05-30 02:13:58 PM  

BMFPitt: Flat tax with nothing other than personal exemptions


For someone making over a million dollars a year, a flat tax is an exemption.
 
2013-05-30 02:17:33 PM  

BMFPitt: Flat tax with nothing other than personal exemptions. As soon as you start making exceptions we end up right back where we are.


Where we are is much better than another Great Depression.
 
2013-05-30 02:19:50 PM  

un4gvn666: BMFPitt: Flat tax with nothing other than personal exemptions. As soon as you start making exceptions we end up right back where we are.

Where we are is much better than another Great Depression.


Also better than a zombie apocalypse. But how is that relevant?
 
2013-05-30 02:19:59 PM  
The Fair Tax is the way to go.  It is the only system that cannot be used as a political weapon.
 
2013-05-30 02:21:36 PM  
Would it be  possible to fund government with stocks?  So that the Federal government owned a piece of every publicly traded company?  Or even partially?
 
2013-05-30 02:21:37 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: The Fair Tax is the way to go.  It is the only system that cannot be used as a political weapon.


Congress could never make favored products tax-free under FairTax because magic.
 
2013-05-30 02:21:59 PM  
Why are they so afraid of the bold new (tee hee) idea being proposed by a strong, black conservative like Dr. Ben Carson?
 
2013-05-30 02:23:10 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: The Fair Tax is the way to go


How is a regressive tax "fair" in any way?
 
2013-05-30 02:23:30 PM  

Smelly McUgly: WTF Indeed: Or "We've beaten the Flat Tax idea into the ground and we need a new scheme to make rich dudes' tax rates lower."

Well, anyone who can do simple math has figured out that a flat tax is regressive.


Math has a well-known liberal bias.
 
2013-05-30 02:24:35 PM  
I absolutely agree.  The income tax should be abolished and replaced with nothing. At the very least, DC would have no choice but to bring back all the troops. And get rid of the redundant alphabet soup agencies.
 
2013-05-30 02:24:40 PM  
If the flat tax was

5% for less than $30,000

10-15% for $30k-100K

20% for $100K-$400K

30% for over $400K,

no deduction, fark you pay the tax, them I'm ok with that flat tax.

but this isn't a flat tax at all is it?
 
2013-05-30 02:25:29 PM  

BMFPitt: un4gvn666: BMFPitt: Flat tax with nothing other than personal exemptions. As soon as you start making exceptions we end up right back where we are.

Where we are is much better than another Great Depression.

Also better than a zombie apocalypse. But how is that relevant?


A flat tax would cause one, but not the other.

I'm sure if you strain really hard, you'll figure it out.
 
2013-05-30 02:27:23 PM  
I'm glad to see conservatives *slowly* backing away from the fringe.  They're almost ready for reality, but probably one electoral thrashing away.
 
2013-05-30 02:28:39 PM  

Jarhead_h: I absolutely agree.  The income tax should be abolished and replaced with nothing. At the very least, DC would have no choice but to bring back all the troops. And get rid of the redundant alphabet soup agencies.


And to collapse, and let our already-weakened infrastructure collapse to dust...
 
2013-05-30 02:28:56 PM  
the only reason the tax code is so complex is because the fatcats paid to get it that way
 
2013-05-30 02:29:00 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: The Fair Tax is the way to go.  It is the only system that cannot be used as a political weapon.


Hahaha oh wow!
 
2013-05-30 02:29:27 PM  

LordJiro: Jarhead_h: I absolutely agree.  The income tax should be abolished and replaced with nothing. At the very least, DC would have no choice but to bring back all the troops. And get rid of the redundant alphabet soup agencies.

And to collapse, and let our already-weakened infrastructure collapse to dust...


You want a new bridge in your state?  Hold a bake sale.
 
2013-05-30 02:31:46 PM  

whidbey: Smeggy Smurf: The Fair Tax is the way to go

How is a regressive tax "fair" in any way?


Ask any Fair Tax proponent how they know you don't understand the Fair Tax.
 
2013-05-30 02:32:57 PM  

moos: whidbey: Smeggy Smurf: The Fair Tax is the way to go

How is a regressive tax "fair" in any way?

Ask any Fair Tax proponent how they know you don't understand the Fair Tax.


Oh, the irony.
 
2013-05-30 02:33:47 PM  

Captain Dan: I'm glad to see conservatives *slowly* backing away from the fringe.  They're almost ready for reality, but probably one electoral thrashing away.


It's still a bit early but 2014 is starting to look very bad for them.
 
2013-05-30 02:34:17 PM  
Since its NRO, I assume theirs is even worse than the flat tax. Having refused to click, heres mine.

I recall poverty being about 11k per year. So.

Tax rate for all brackets applies only to the portion of income within the bracket.

The first 3xPoverty (33k): 0% tax
The next 2xPoverty (34-55k): 15% tax
The next 2xPoverty (56-77k): 20% tax
The next 2xPoverty (78-99k): 15% tax
The next 2xPoverty (100-122k): 20% tax
The next 2xPoverty (123-145k): 25% tax
The next 2xPoverty (146-168k): 30% tax
The next 2xPoverty (169-191k): 35% tax
The next 2xPoverty (192-214k): 40% tax
The next 2xPoverty (215-237k): 45% tax
The next 2xPoverty (238-260k): 50% tax
The next 2xPoverty (261-283k): 55% tax
The next 2xPoverty (284-306k): 60% tax
The next 2xPoverty (307-329k): 65% tax
The next 2xPoverty (330k-end): 70% tax
Capital Gains: fark you, you aren't special anymore.

Voila. If you passed 2nd grade your taxes should be a cinch. Each year IRS puts out a new worksheet with the brackets for that years poverty line and you finish in 5 minutes. You pay more if you make more, but there's never a spot where you end up with less. And no loopholes or deductions to be exploited. I don't care if you have a house or 20 crotchfruit.
 
2013-05-30 02:35:57 PM  

tricycleracer: LordJiro: Jarhead_h: I absolutely agree.  The income tax should be abolished and replaced with nothing. At the very least, DC would have no choice but to bring back all the troops. And get rid of the redundant alphabet soup agencies.

And to collapse, and let our already-weakened infrastructure collapse to dust...

You want a new bridge in your state?  Hold a bake sale.


Drones.   Emminent invasion of Syria and Iran.  Drug war.  Monsanto's shenanigans....  All of it =   Massive death of third world brown people.

You want it stopped?  The only way is to starve DC and force the people of your state to deal with their own problems.
 
2013-05-30 02:39:01 PM  

moos: whidbey: Smeggy Smurf: The Fair Tax is the way to go

How is a regressive tax "fair" in any way?

Ask any Fair Tax proponent how they know you don't understand the Fair Tax.


They always tell me "this will make everyone's taxes go down!

Then I ask, ok so if person Y pays less, doesn't that mean person X has to pair more?

The response is either a titled head and a slight whine, or "but but it's fair tax!".
 
2013-05-30 02:39:15 PM  

Jarhead_h: tricycleracer: LordJiro: Jarhead_h: I absolutely agree.  The income tax should be abolished and replaced with nothing. At the very least, DC would have no choice but to bring back all the troops. And get rid of the redundant alphabet soup agencies.

And to collapse, and let our already-weakened infrastructure collapse to dust...

You want a new bridge in your state?  Hold a bake sale.

Drones.   Emminent invasion of Syria and Iran.  Drug war.  Monsanto's shenanigans....  All of it =   Massive death of third world brown people.

You want it stopped?  The only way is to starve DC and force the people of your state to deal with their own problems.


Starving the federal government CAUSES a lot more problems than it solves. Especially for states that already take in more money than they collect.
 
2013-05-30 02:40:35 PM  

LordJiro: Jarhead_h: tricycleracer: LordJiro: Jarhead_h: I absolutely agree.  The income tax should be abolished and replaced with nothing. At the very least, DC would have no choice but to bring back all the troops. And get rid of the redundant alphabet soup agencies.

And to collapse, and let our already-weakened infrastructure collapse to dust...

You want a new bridge in your state?  Hold a bake sale.

Drones.   Emminent invasion of Syria and Iran.  Drug war.  Monsanto's shenanigans....  All of it =   Massive death of third world brown people.

You want it stopped?  The only way is to starve DC and force the people of your state to deal with their own problems.

Starving the federal government CAUSES a lot more problems than it solves. Especially for states that already take in more money than they collect.


No, it FORCES a conclusion to problems that government caused.
 
2013-05-30 02:42:15 PM  
"Millions of individuals and businesses have made long-term plans based on expectations that the tax code will remain more or less the same."

In real world terms, "Millions of individuals and businesses have made long-term plans based on minimizing the damage that the tax code will do to their business, and would happily lay off their accountants, who are mostly there to maintain tax breaks."

It's funny how so many of the flat tax opponents seem to forget just how much baggage and overhead there is in so many businesses due to following the current tax code.

Heck, I'd save the equivalent of a couple of hundred bucks a year in time spent on my tax return (the time I spend filling out my return, as an hourly expense), and my situation is pretty simple compared to most.
 
2013-05-30 02:43:01 PM  

Headso: One solution is to take the essentially flat consumption tax devised by economists Robert Hall and Alvin Rabushka and give it a progressive rate structure. Or we could combine a consumption tax with a flat income tax on wealthier Americans

Am I missing something or is this, from the NRO, not completely insane?


James Pethokoukis is actually a surprisingly fair-minded economist despite working for the American Enterprise Institute. Plus the National Review magazine used to be full of intellectual arguments for conservatism back in the Buckley days before hoping on the constant outrage bandwagon.

You want to really be scared? Same guy recently wrote this about how Paul Ryan and other Republicans were completely off the mark for claiming QE has destroyed the finances of people who save money in the US by pointing out that expansive monetary policy has benefits on financial instruments outside of savings accounts whose success has outstripped the potential realized gains savers could have made unless you are talking double digit interest rates. Plus he points out hardly anyone lives off interest income and that savers get most of their money from market-based financial instruments which are loving QE. And he published this on one of AEI's websites.

Dude is a conservative, but he actually recognizes what the benefits and drawbacks of public policy are. He just disagrees with more liberal economists on what policies are most beneficial to society instead of pretending that anything one party supports is good for everyone and everything the other supports is harmful to everyone.
 
2013-05-30 02:43:58 PM  

Jarhead_h: tricycleracer: LordJiro: Jarhead_h: I absolutely agree.  The income tax should be abolished and replaced with nothing. At the very least, DC would have no choice but to bring back all the troops. And get rid of the redundant alphabet soup agencies.

And to collapse, and let our already-weakened infrastructure collapse to dust...

You want a new bridge in your state?  Hold a bake sale.

Drones.   Emminent invasion of Syria and Iran.  Drug war.  Monsanto's shenanigans....  All of it =   Massive death of third world brown people.

You want it stopped?  The only way is to starve DC and force the people of your state to deal with their own problems.


"Starve the beast" has been the core of Republican fiscal policy since Reagan, and it hasn't worked out too terribly well.
 
2013-05-30 02:44:02 PM  

Jarhead_h: LordJiro: Jarhead_h: tricycleracer: LordJiro: Jarhead_h: I absolutely agree.  The income tax should be abolished and replaced with nothing. At the very least, DC would have no choice but to bring back all the troops. And get rid of the redundant alphabet soup agencies.

And to collapse, and let our already-weakened infrastructure collapse to dust...

You want a new bridge in your state?  Hold a bake sale.

Drones.   Emminent invasion of Syria and Iran.  Drug war.  Monsanto's shenanigans....  All of it =   Massive death of third world brown people.

You want it stopped?  The only way is to starve DC and force the people of your state to deal with their own problems.

Starving the federal government CAUSES a lot more problems than it solves. Especially for states that already take in more money than they collect.

No, it FORCES a conclusion to problems that government caused.


Yes, like cutting someone's head off FORCES a conclusion to their smoking habit.
 
2013-05-30 02:44:21 PM  

un4gvn666: BMFPitt: un4gvn666: BMFPitt: Flat tax with nothing other than personal exemptions. As soon as you start making exceptions we end up right back where we are.

Where we are is much better than another Great Depression.

Also better than a zombie apocalypse. But how is that relevant?

A flat tax would cause one, but not the other.

I'm sure if you strain really hard, you'll figure it out.


I guess that straining until I burst a blood vessel in my brain would cause me to "understand" some interesting things.
 
2013-05-30 02:47:04 PM  

cirby: "Millions of individuals and businesses have made long-term plans based on expectations that the tax code will remain more or less the same."

In real world terms, "Millions of individuals and businesses have made long-term plans based on minimizing the damage that the tax code will do to their business, and would happily lay off their accountants, who are mostly there to maintain tax breaks."

It's funny how so many of the flat tax opponents seem to forget just how much baggage and overhead there is in so many businesses due to following the current tax code.

Heck, I'd save the equivalent of a couple of hundred bucks a year in time spent on my tax return (the time I spend filling out my return, as an hourly expense), and my situation is pretty simple compared to most.


It is a valid point, but as somebody who has not manipulated my lifestyle to take advantage I would play them a very tiny violin. For instance I bought a realtively modest house at a very low rate, so doing away with the mortgage interest deduction would not hurt me all that much.  Joe Smith who bought at the top of his budget might be desperate for that deduction each year.
 
2013-05-30 02:47:24 PM  

JolobinSmokin: If the flat tax was

5% for less than $30,000

10-15% for $30k-100K

20% for $100K-$400K

30% for over $400K,

no deduction, fark you pay the tax, them I'm ok with that flat tax.

but this isn't a flat tax at all is it?


That's just a progressive income tax with different brackets.
 
2013-05-30 02:47:28 PM  
LordJiro:
Starving the federal government CAUSES a lot more problems than it solves. Especially for states that already take in more money than they collect.

That "states that take in more money than they collect" is mostly based on "states that have Interstate highways that pass through them, or have a lot of military bases," added to "people who collect Social Security in states like Arizona and Florida after living in higher-population states."

Starving the Federal government for nonessential spending won't touch those states at all, though it will certainly impact such wonderful places as Washington DC...
 
2013-05-30 02:48:16 PM  

Jarhead_h: No, it FORCES a conclusion to problems that government caused.


Because there is no such thing as deficit spending.
 
2013-05-30 02:48:27 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: The Fair Tax is the way to go.  It is the only system that cannot be used as a political weapon.


As I've said before, I have a distinct soft spot for the FairTax, coming from a Green/Lefty perspective.  It would serve to destroy consumerism.  Repairable (Cuban-style) cars, repairable shoes, etc would come into vogue, as would a lot more DIY of all sorts, gardening, local labor bartering, etc. All to find ways to go underground to avoid the 35-40% consumption tax.  On the negative side, you'd just given a whole lot more incentive to theft (you can resell at half-price and tax-free... brilliant).

The fact that it would be brutal for consumerism-driven companies like Walmart is the reason it's fringe even in the GOP. There's also the fun of enforcement.  My state has to have a hundred armed revenue agents just to enforce sales taxes in the 7-9% range, and a lot of businesses still under-report sales.  On a 35-40% tax... good luck with that.  Right now, the lower-income 90% of Americans don't cheat much on their taxes because they don't have much to cheat on.
 
2013-05-30 02:49:13 PM  

moos: whidbey: Smeggy Smurf: The Fair Tax is the way to go

How is a regressive tax "fair" in any way?

Ask any Fair Tax proponent how they know you don't understand the Fair Tax.


I completely understand it. It is basically a 30% sales tax with a supposed "rebate" for citizens at the "poverty level."

It's bullshiat.
 
2013-05-30 02:49:39 PM  
What we need is a FAIR Tax.  It says Fair right in the name.

Now, you probably  have a lot of complicated questions about how the Fair Tax would affect things like homeowner's deductions, education deductions, retirement deductions, the black market, consumer spending, and other kinds of stuff.

Well, I can assure you that the Fair Tax solves all those problems because you'll have way more money and there will be no more IRS.  They suck.

For every complicated problem, there's a simple solution:  Fair Tax.
 
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