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(BBC)   'See? All of you whined so much about running out of toilet paper, now we're running out of wine'   (bbc.co.uk ) divider line
    More: Followup, Venezuela Catholic Church, proven oil reserves, cooking oils, Venezuelans, foreign exchange controls  
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4282 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 May 2013 at 1:36 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-28 01:12:26 PM  
BBC Mundo correspondent Abraham Zamorano, in the capital, Caracas, says many Venezuelans are wondering why this is happening to a self-proclaimed rich country with the largest proven oil reserves in the world.

Sr Zamorano then added, emphatically in fact, "please note that I'm not wondering, this is exclusively the idle wondering of OTHER people that I've interviewed and definitely not me!"
 
2013-05-28 01:38:21 PM  
Meh, crack open the Welch's.

/protestant
 
2013-05-28 01:41:41 PM  
Churches don't have to give the Eucharist to the congregation in both forms, so they could get by on the bread alone.
 
2013-05-28 01:43:31 PM  
Does this mean i should stop hording ammo and start hording NightTrain?
 
2013-05-28 01:45:10 PM  
When do the kulaks get shot?
 
2013-05-28 01:45:15 PM  
Big deal, just go back to using blood.
 
2013-05-28 01:46:21 PM  
Price controls and centralized planning always result in shortages.

Yes, Socialism IS bad.
 
2013-05-28 01:46:32 PM  
In Venezuela, Eucharist celebrates you!
 
2013-05-28 01:47:31 PM  
Poor socialists just have the damndest luck. It seems like every time they take over the economy of a resource rich country, that country will have a terrible run of bad luck that leads to a shattered economy, shortages, unrest and the need to place the blame on political opponents. Who would have guessed that this would happen here as well. It's so...unexpected.
 
2013-05-28 01:48:23 PM  
You know, if there was some way the Church could just figure out how to turn something in to something *else* then this wine shortage thing would be licked.
 
2013-05-28 01:49:14 PM  
Chilean wine gives me the worst hangovers. I've never had Venezuelan wine, so I can't comment.
 
2013-05-28 01:51:12 PM  
Meanwhile the supply of whine continues to outpace demand.
 
2013-05-28 01:51:49 PM  

gbob23: Poor socialists just have the damndest luck. It seems like every time they take over the economy of a resource rich country, that country will have a terrible run of bad luck that leads to a shattered economy, shortages, unrest and the need to place the blame on political opponents. Who would have guessed that this would happen here as well. It's so...unexpected.


If 85% of the population of said resource-rich country weren't living in abject poverty before said takeover, hardline socialists wouldn't have had a massive natural base of supporters.
 
2013-05-28 01:53:26 PM  
If only water could somehow be transformed. Oh. Wait. It's been done? Can we get? oh...I see...Assumed you say? Oh well. Just going to have to make due with the Body then..

Catholic..I can poke fun at my own right?
 
2013-05-28 02:00:45 PM  

jaybeezey: Does this mean i should stop hording ammo and start hording NightTrain?


If you haven't already your behind - Better play catch up now dude
 
2013-05-28 02:00:58 PM  
and french fries and burrito coverin's.
 
2013-05-28 02:02:53 PM  

gbob23: Poor socialists just have the damndest luck. It seems like every time they take over the economy of a resource rich country, that country will have a terrible run of bad luck that leads to a shattered economy, shortages, unrest and the need to place the blame on political opponents. Who would have guessed that this would happen here as well. It's so...unexpected.


This
And welcome to a preview of the USA.
 
2013-05-28 02:11:36 PM  
See what happens when idiot liberals and communists, well, one and the same actually, start to mess with the people who actually make things and sell things and WORK. The system breaks down rapidly when those who are parasites try and run anything more complicated then a crack pipe or a voting machine.
 
2013-05-28 02:15:27 PM  
This is not by far a socialist country in the Marxian sense.  That being said, the reason that planned economies fail is not that planned economies are inherently doomed for failure.  The reason that planned economies fail is that they are made the pariahs of the international community by the more developed capitalist nations.

Another reason planned economies fail is because those that attempt to have a socialist country have no business being in the socialist game.  Marx himself would be the first to tell you a country should go socialist only after a country has been built up and industrialized via capitalism.  That is why we saw disasters in Russia and China with 5 year plans and the great leap forward.  Essentially these mostly agrarian nations attempted to industrialize in rapid fashion without having had the gradual buildup that capitalism offers.
 
2013-05-28 02:20:28 PM  
So now don't you dare biatch about the wine. I don't have to tell you what happens next, do I?
 
2013-05-28 02:26:00 PM  
You know this wouldn't be that big of a problem if Catholics didn't push the whole transubstantiation thing.
If you make it so important in your doctrine, when you can't provide it, people tend to get upset.


/not to mention the ridiculous requirement that the bread be wheat
 
2013-05-28 02:28:37 PM  
So how long until they bomb the Falkland Islands again to keep the populace distracted?
 
2013-05-28 02:35:48 PM  

huntercr: You know this wouldn't be that big of a problem if Catholics didn't push the whole transubstantiation thing.
If you make it so important in your doctrine, when you can't provide it, people tend to get upset.


/not to mention the ridiculous requirement that the bread be wheat


You'll have to excuse my ignorance, but doesn't transubstantiation mean that anything can/will turn into the blood/body of Zombie Jesus or is that a specific to non-Catholic but still takes communion Christian Sect thing?
 
2013-05-28 02:43:35 PM  

FarkedOver: This is not by far a socialist country in the Marxian sense.  That being said, the reason that planned economies fail is not that planned economies are inherently doomed for failure.  The reason that planned economies fail is that they are made the pariahs of the international community by the more developed capitalist nations.

Another reason planned economies fail is because those that attempt to have a socialist country have no business being in the socialist game.  Marx himself would be the first to tell you a country should go socialist only after a country has been built up and industrialized via capitalism.  That is why we saw disasters in Russia and China with 5 year plans and the great leap forward.  Essentially these mostly agrarian nations attempted to industrialize in rapid fashion without having had the gradual buildup that capitalism offers.


Or that the planners simply don't know what they're doing, continue to operate under assumptions that ignore basic human nature, and tend to make pariahs out of those that actually own the resources they're trying to control.
 
2013-05-28 02:45:55 PM  

nw_inferno: So how long until they bomb the Falkland Islands again to keep the populace distracted?


Wrong country.  Though Chavez was all about supporting the Argentines on their little goofy island obsession.
 
2013-05-28 02:51:41 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: nw_inferno: So how long until they bomb the Falkland Islands again to keep the populace distracted?

Wrong country.  Though Chavez was all about supporting the Argentines on their little goofy island obsession.


Yeah, I realized that right after I hit submit but figured I see how many people caught it.
What is it with these countries and their love of central planning economies? Successful socialist countries seem to have figured out that you leave the economy to the capitalists and just have high taxes and regulations to support the social programs.
 
2013-05-28 02:52:20 PM  

ronaprhys: Or that the planners simply don't know what they're doing, continue to operate under assumptions that ignore basic human nature, and tend to make pariahs out of those that actually own the resources they're trying to control.


I don't think socialism ignores "human nature".  For instance I think people want some degree of power over their life. If the working class were to actually assert themselves over owners and capitalists, this would give them greater control over their own lives.  I think that's one aspect of socialism that plays right into human nature.  The fact that people doing it cooperatively.... isn't human nature.... is that what you believe?
 
2013-05-28 02:56:10 PM  

FarkedOver: ronaprhys: Or that the planners simply don't know what they're doing, continue to operate under assumptions that ignore basic human nature, and tend to make pariahs out of those that actually own the resources they're trying to control.

I don't think socialism ignores "human nature".  For instance I think people want some degree of power over their life. If the working class were to actually assert themselves over owners and capitalists, this would give them greater control over their own lives.  I think that's one aspect of socialism that plays right into human nature.  The fact that people doing it cooperatively.... isn't human nature.... is that what you believe?


Wrong aspect of human nature.  It's the me and mine over everyone else.  The desire to profit, succeed, and do better than the next guy.

But you knew that.
 
2013-05-28 02:59:48 PM  

ronaprhys: Wrong aspect of human nature. It's the me and mine over everyone else. The desire to profit, succeed, and do better than the next guy.

But you knew that.


That's an interesting theory you have there.  Let me counter it with my own....  could it be that human nature is flexible and multifaceted, and that the behaviors of human beings are shaped by their social circumstances?
 
2013-05-28 03:06:52 PM  

Raw_fishFood: huntercr: You know this wouldn't be that big of a problem if Catholics didn't push the whole transubstantiation thing.
If you make it so important in your doctrine, when you can't provide it, people tend to get upset.


/not to mention the ridiculous requirement that the bread be wheat

You'll have to excuse my ignorance, but doesn't transubstantiation mean that anything can/will turn into the blood/body of Zombie Jesus or is that a specific to non-Catholic but still takes communion Christian Sect thing?


Transubstantiation means that during communion ( the ceremony of taking the  bread and wine and consuming it )  transforms and "becomes" the blood and body of Christ. Of course Catholics don't mean this in the cannibal/zombie context, but mean it to mean that the actual spirit of Christ is filling you in the ceremony. ( I don't buy it either.)

Only Catholics believe this AFAIK. All other Christian denominations believe it is a symbolic transformation. The origin of communion is a simple service of giving thanks, and remembering Christ and his message delivered at the last supper. In its most basic form, it is advice for how and when to pray.

Catholics make so much out of the importance of it especially the ritual itself... turning what should be a warm, simple and inclusive thing into a cold, exclusive and complex thing. Actually causing some people to be afraid they are some how sinning if they don't partake.

/This in particular makes me sad. Some of my best friends reject religion all together simply because they were Catholic and were harmed by things like this.
 
2013-05-28 03:07:53 PM  

Raw_fishFood: huntercr: You know this wouldn't be that big of a problem if Catholics didn't push the whole transubstantiation thing.
If you make it so important in your doctrine, when you can't provide it, people tend to get upset.


/not to mention the ridiculous requirement that the bread be wheat

You'll have to excuse my ignorance, but doesn't transubstantiation mean that anything can/will turn into the blood/body of Zombie Jesus or is that a specific to non-Catholic but still takes communion Christian Sect thing?


The wine and bread actually turning into the blood and body of Christ is a Catholic thing. Hence my Welch's post above. For Protestants* the act is symbolic in nature. We aren't eating/drinking the actual body/blood, we're drinking wine (Welch's, lotta AA Protestants, apparently) and eating bread (nice loaf of crusty French, torn into little chunks, usually) in remembrance of the initial act.

* disclaimer: There are a bajillion different Protestant denominations, so of course this is a generalization. I grew up Congregationalist/UCC, so YMMV.
 
2013-05-28 03:16:36 PM  

FarkedOver: ronaprhys: Wrong aspect of human nature. It's the me and mine over everyone else. The desire to profit, succeed, and do better than the next guy.

But you knew that.

That's an interesting theory you have there.  Let me counter it with my own....  could it be that human nature is flexible and multifaceted, and that the behaviors of human beings are shaped by their social circumstances?


I think history is full of examples of my theory and how it works.  People want to be in charge, they want power, and they don't want to share.  That's why capitalism works - it plays into our base instincts.  That's also why socialism fails - it ignores that.
 
2013-05-28 03:20:01 PM  

ronaprhys: Wrong aspect of human nature. It's the me and mine over everyone else. The desire to profit, succeed, and do better than the next guy.

But you knew that.


To further reject your theory: at the dawn of homo sapiens, human beings banded together for the survival of the group not for the accumulation or fethisization of wealth. They did not want to have more than the next man had.  Where was human nature then?

Your idea of human nature is just as much fiction as Santa Claus and John Galt.

Because human beings are capable of greed does not make it our nature.  We are capable of generosity as well, does that mean our nature is to constantly give the shirt off of our back? Of course not.

As I said before, human nature is dictated by our social circumstances.  Be it natural circumstances or man made circumstances (i.e. capitalism).  Therefore, I suggest that if human beings are capable of creating capitalism, we are just as capable of creating socialism or even communism to work for the masses.
 
2013-05-28 03:24:31 PM  

FarkedOver: As I said before, human nature is dictated by our social circumstances. Be it natural circumstances or man made circumstances (i.e. capitalism). Therefore, I suggest that if human beings are capable of creating capitalism, we are just as capable of creating socialism or even communism to work for the masses.


As a side note, there is nothing in our human nature that says socialism is impossible.  There is nothing in our human nature that says it is inevitable.
 
2013-05-28 03:27:03 PM  

FarkedOver: ronaprhys: Wrong aspect of human nature. It's the me and mine over everyone else. The desire to profit, succeed, and do better than the next guy.

But you knew that.

To further reject your theory: at the dawn of homo sapiens, human beings banded together for the survival of the group not for the accumulation or fethisization of wealth. They did not want to have more than the next man had.  Where was human nature then?

Your idea of human nature is just as much fiction as Santa Claus and John Galt.

Because human beings are capable of greed does not make it our nature.  We are capable of generosity as well, does that mean our nature is to constantly give the shirt off of our back? Of course not.

As I said before, human nature is dictated by our social circumstances.  Be it natural circumstances or man made circumstances (i.e. capitalism).  Therefore, I suggest that if human beings are capable of creating capitalism, we are just as capable of creating socialism or even communism to work for the masses.


It can be made to work. It just hasn't ever really been done.

People who seek power in ANY political system are the last people that it Should be given to.
 
2013-05-28 03:29:00 PM  

jaybeezey: It can be made to work. It just hasn't ever really been done.

People who seek power in ANY political system are the last people that it Should be given to.


Oh I agree.  Which is why i added that side note regarding it is possible but not inevitable.
 
2013-05-28 03:45:15 PM  
namegoeshere: we're drinking wine (Welch's, lotta AA Protestants, apparently)

One of the simplest recipes for "homemade" wine that I know of is a gallon of 100% fruit juice, a gallon of water, and 3 pounds of sugar. Stir until the sugar's dissolved, throw in a packet of yeast, and wait about two weeks. The end product isn't half bad, it's a great way for aspiring homebrewers to learn about fermentation, it's pretty hard to colossaly screw up, and- let's face it- you don't have super-high expectations for it.

It always brings a smile to my face when I change Welch's to a 14% ABV product.
 
2013-05-28 03:45:49 PM  

FarkedOver: ronaprhys: Wrong aspect of human nature. It's the me and mine over everyone else. The desire to profit, succeed, and do better than the next guy.

But you knew that.

To further reject your theory: at the dawn of homo sapiens, human beings banded together for the survival of the group not for the accumulation or fethisization of wealth. They did not want to have more than the next man had.  Where was human nature then?

Your idea of human nature is just as much fiction as Santa Claus and John Galt.

Because human beings are capable of greed does not make it our nature.  We are capable of generosity as well, does that mean our nature is to constantly give the shirt off of our back? Of course not.

As I said before, human nature is dictated by our social circumstances.  Be it natural circumstances or man made circumstances (i.e. capitalism).  Therefore, I suggest that if human beings are capable of creating capitalism, we are just as capable of creating socialism or even communism to work for the masses.


Did I ever argue that it doesn't work in small groups?  No - but to focus on small groups and ignore the interactions of larger groups is plainly asinine, which is what you seem to be doing.  Especially when those small groups banded together to take over other small groups.  How else would nations, city states, and other groupings have come about?  History is full of examples of us vs them, the desire for power, making life better for yourself and your offspring at the expense of others, etc.  That doesn't mean that charity and the desire to help doesn't exist - just that this will not function well as an overarching economic model.  Too many people are too smart and want to get ahead - they'll find ways.  Each and every attempt at socialism has shown this (among many of the other inherent flaws).  Hell - every one of our laws that we right to help control the excesses of business gets the end around before the ink is dry.  Sometimes because the loopholes are bribed in from the start, sometimes because the laws aren't thought through all that well, and sometimes because smart people will simply find ways to succeed.
 
2013-05-28 03:48:05 PM  
To my original point of capitalist power deliberately oppressing leftist governments, these constant articles about the failures of "socialism" or "planned economies" is part of the their plan to marginalize the nation.

Whenever someone gets sick from tainted food sold in grocery stores, is that the fault of capitalism?  When 360 million people in India go hungry every year is that the fault of the free market?

It's time we start holding capitalism and free markets to the exact same standards that it puts on every other type of economy.  You might be shocked at what you find.
 
2013-05-28 03:49:36 PM  

Gonz: namegoeshere: we're drinking wine (Welch's, lotta AA Protestants, apparently)

One of the simplest recipes for "homemade" wine that I know of is a gallon of 100% fruit juice, a gallon of water, and 3 pounds of sugar. Stir until the sugar's dissolved, throw in a packet of yeast, and wait about two weeks. The end product isn't half bad, it's a great way for aspiring homebrewers to learn about fermentation, it's pretty hard to colossaly screw up, and- let's face it- you don't have super-high expectations for it.

It always brings a smile to my face when I change Welch's to a 14% ABV product.


Uh oh. You just might be my father in law.
 
2013-05-28 03:52:40 PM  

ronaprhys: Did I ever argue that it doesn't work in small groups? No - but to focus on small groups and ignore the interactions of larger groups is plainly asinine, which is what you seem to be doing.


I argued that human nature is flexible and malleable based on social circumstances..... which is what you basically are saying in this sentence..... so thanks for proving my point.

You mean to say as tribes grew bigger, the way people interacted changed!? THE HELL YOU SAY.  It's not greed or want of junk we don't need or want of things just for the sake of wanting them or wanting more because more is always better, it's the situation we find ourselves in.

I don't think what I am saying here is revolutionary or weird..... you just seem to have a fixation on one human aspect and emotion and you seem to be incapable of seeing the forest for the trees, which I believe, sir, is asinine.
 
2013-05-28 04:08:01 PM  

FarkedOver: ronaprhys: Did I ever argue that it doesn't work in small groups? No - but to focus on small groups and ignore the interactions of larger groups is plainly asinine, which is what you seem to be doing.

I argued that human nature is flexible and malleable based on social circumstances..... which is what you basically are saying in this sentence..... so thanks for proving my point.

You mean to say as tribes grew bigger, the way people interacted changed!? THE HELL YOU SAY.  It's not greed or want of junk we don't need or want of things just for the sake of wanting them or wanting more because more is always better, it's the situation we find ourselves in.

I don't think what I am saying here is revolutionary or weird..... you just seem to have a fixation on one human aspect and emotion and you seem to be incapable of seeing the forest for the trees, which I believe, sir, is asinine.


The point isn't that the actions changed - they changed to a behavior that supports my position.  Capitalism leverages that and, by and large, moves society forward quite nicely.  Socialism attempts to work against that and, due to that, will likely fail in any large group.  As such, it's an unfit economic model outside of very small groups.
 
2013-05-28 04:14:53 PM  

nw_inferno: So how long until they bomb the Falkland Islands again to keep the populace distracted?


Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl harbor???
 
2013-05-28 04:21:02 PM  

ronaprhys: The point isn't that the actions changed - they changed to a behavior that supports my position.


So human action and interaction changed as circumstances changed?  Ok.... I agree....
 
2013-05-28 04:22:06 PM  

namegoeshere: Uh oh. You just might be my father in law.


If I am, then you need to have a seat Over There.
 
2013-05-28 04:56:31 PM  

LargeCanine: Price controls and centralized planning always result in shortages.

Yes, Socialism IS bad.


Yep.  And it looks like they Venezualen government is going by the standard script:

1. Prices go up for any number of reasons, but usually because the government did something.
2. Freeze prices to stop the evil capitalists from profiting from the suffering of the downtrodden.
3. Goods disappear because they would have to be sold at a loss.
4. Blame the opposition for their conspiracy that created the shortages.
5. Profit!
 
2013-05-28 05:03:36 PM  

Gonz: 3 pounds of sugar


Sugar is one of the staple food items that is in short supply.
 
2013-05-28 05:07:46 PM  

AverageAmericanGuy: Chilean wine gives me the worst hangovers. I've never had Venezuelan wine, so I can't comment.


I have.  It was a malbec.  A green, stalky taste.  Did not like.  I'm not rejecting all Venezuelean wines since I've had limited experience, but that one sucked.
 
2013-05-28 05:24:32 PM  

OgreMagi: Gonz: 3 pounds of sugar

Sugar is one of the staple food items that is in short supply.


I wasn't suggesting that Venezuela turn to introductory wine-making to solve the problem. Just commenting on my amusement when I turn a teetotaler's product into an intoxicating beverage.
 
2013-05-28 06:21:54 PM  
We also kinda ran out of coffee....
 
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