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(Daily Herald)   Reminding the students you teach that they are also protected by the 5th amendment? That's a suspendin'   (dailyherald.com) divider line 54
    More: Asinine, Batavia, chief academic officer, John Dryden, current affairs  
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15632 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 May 2013 at 4:41 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-05-26 05:19:28 PM
6 votes:

Radak: Fifth amendment?  I'm gonna go with no.

"...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.  That being said, any student certainly has the right to call bullshiat on a survey and refuse to answer.  It's just not a bill of rights issue.


From Barron's Law Dictionary:

SELF-INCRIMINATION, PRIVILEGE AGAINST the constitutional right of a person to refuse to answer questions or otherwise give testimony against himself or herself which will subject him or her to an incrimination. This right under the Fifth Amendment (often called simply PLEADING THE FIFTH) is now applicable to the states through the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, 378 U.S. 1,8, and is applicable in any situation, civil or criminal where the state attempts to compel incriminating testimony. (There are many caveats following this section.)
2013-05-26 04:53:52 PM
6 votes:
The school is teaching these kids some valuable lesson: Grownups can't be trusted. And people with power act arbitrarily and capriciously.
2013-05-26 04:46:46 PM
6 votes:
Area teacher abides
www.dailyherald.com
2013-05-26 05:32:10 PM
5 votes:
The teacher deserves a Hero tag.
2013-05-26 05:15:55 PM
5 votes:
Ahahahaha.... anyone who thinks that the kids who answered yes on the drug/alcohol questions weren't going to be name-dropped to the cop stationed in the school are delusional.

Of course, it would never be in writing, but names would be mentioned.
2013-05-26 04:53:55 PM
4 votes:
and the contents are proprietary business information

Why yes, Virginia, targeted assassinations by legitimate businessmen or mob hits as they are know on the street are proprietary business information.

And collusion by a government official with a private business to deprive a protected group of their Constitutional rights is going to sell a lot of Depends to that school board.

elizabethemkenussenate2012.files.wordpress.com
2013-05-26 04:51:30 PM
4 votes:
If Clarence Thomas had his way, none of those students would have any Constitutional rights until they hit their 18th birthday.
2013-05-26 05:49:25 PM
3 votes:
You can compare this to the pre-ban of PED in MLB.  They collected info and have leaked all the findings and names of the people that violated the new list of banned substances even though it didn't apply to them. It still damages their reputation, and probably put them on a watch list to be tested more.  I like teachers that actually help students understand about the relevance of self incrimination in contemporary society.

Kids, always keep your mouth shut about drugs and alcohol, you can and will be labeled as such, and even if you don't have a problem, people will assume you do.  If you have a problem, keep your mouth shut and and ask for help from someone you can trust...  maybe a teacher like this dude.
2013-05-26 05:48:34 PM
3 votes:
We did these surveys in school. We didn't have our names on it. And if it did I wouldn't of done it.
This is a good teacher, looking out for the kids. Give him his job back
2013-05-26 05:35:25 PM
3 votes:

Radak: Fifth amendment?  I'm gonna go with no.

"...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.  That being said, any student certainly has the right to call bullshiat on a survey and refuse to answer.  It's just not a bill of rights issue.



It doesn't have to be a criminal case for the 5th to apply. SCOTUS rulings through the years have established that. For instance, it's not a "criminal case" when a police officer pulls you over while driving and demands you provide him with incriminating statements and yet you are still entitled to your 5th amendment rights.
2013-05-26 05:27:27 PM
3 votes:
by answering questions on the survey, which had each student's name printed on it.

What the hell? We used similar surveys in the district I worked for and, not only were the surveys not imprinted with students' names, but the students were specifically told to not put their names on them. The few that we got back that did have a name written on it we simply shredded without reading (and certainly not turning them over to the survey agency for inclusion).

Seriously, what the hell?
2013-05-26 04:47:02 PM
3 votes:
Dealing with BS from the State level is why my Dad jumped at the early retirement offer when it was offered. Who the heck thought that asking these kinds of questions in an non-anonymous manner was a good idea?
2013-05-26 07:18:11 PM
2 votes:

fusillade762: OgreMagi: Any Pie Left: In an era where students can have their bags and lockers searched at will, and even be strip-searched, we're  only upset about a bullshiat survey form?

A locker is school property, so I guess there is no expectation of privacy.  But a backpack is personal property and should be protected.  You don't shed your Rights when you enter the school grounds.

Oh but you do. Any activity that can be in some way construed as "interfering with the educational process" can be banned.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 364x273]

Morse v. Frederick

No First Amendment rights for you. Not yours.


I was flabbergasted when the courts ruled against the student.  But they also think a corporation is a person, so I guess I should have expected this.

Corporations are people.
Students aren't.
Got it.
2013-05-26 06:31:59 PM
2 votes:
Bertalmio was outraged. The 2002 graduate, who took one class with Dryden, credits him with teaching him how to examine positions and make logical arguments, no matter where one stands politically.
"Back it up - give me evidence," is what Dryden taught, Bertalmio said.


3.bp.blogspot.com
2013-05-26 06:23:27 PM
2 votes:

OgreMagi: Any Pie Left: In an era where students can have their bags and lockers searched at will, and even be strip-searched, we're  only upset about a bullshiat survey form?

A locker is school property, so I guess there is no expectation of privacy.  But a backpack is personal property and should be protected.  You don't shed your Rights when you enter the school grounds.


Oh but you do. Any activity that can be in some way construed as "interfering with the educational process" can be banned.

upload.wikimedia.org

Morse v. Frederick

No First Amendment rights for you. Not yours.
nm
2013-05-26 06:17:17 PM
2 votes:

Radak: Fifth amendment?  I'm gonna go with no.

"...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.  That being said, any student certainly has the right to call bullshiat on a survey and refuse to answer.  It's just not a bill of rights issue.


You have a fairly screwed up and incorrect understanding of the 5th amendments.

You have the absolute right to refuse to answer any question and make a statement that could be used to incriminate you.  This right does not attach at trial or even when a criminal investigation begins.  It is not limited to the current investigation.
Answers to this survey could absolutely be used against you, for example:
- Start an investigation
- If the kid's locker is searched, and they find MJ and he claims he's never consumed MJ, this culd be used against him.
- Based on this survey he would likely be forced to cooperate with counseling or something.  He might suffer academic consequences or even criminal conseques.
That is a few examples
/Criminal defense attorney
//When in doubt STFU and demand a lawyer
///When not in doubt, really STFU and demand a lawyer because they're probably playing you with the Reid technique.
2013-05-26 05:47:19 PM
2 votes:
You have to know that such a questionnaire will follow that person throughout their life, and WILL be an instrument to some form of judgement against you in the future.

EVERYONE IS GUILTY OF SOMETHING.
2013-05-26 05:26:21 PM
2 votes:

editer: The school is teaching these kids some valuable lesson: Grownups can't be trusted. And people with power act arbitrarily and capriciously.


When I was a kid we taught kids that lesson by drafting them and sending them to Vietnam.
2013-05-26 05:16:21 PM
2 votes:

Anderson's Pooper: Dealing with BS from the State level is why my Dad jumped at the early retirement offer when it was offered. Who the heck thought that asking these kinds of questions in an non-anonymous manner was a good idea?


One of the most intelligence-impaired species on the planet.  School officials.
And we put these mental midgets in charge of educating our kids,

There really needs to be a website set up. Call it "StupidSchoolBoardTricks.com"

And the internet can ridicule and shame these individuals because that's the only way the system can be fixed.
2013-05-26 05:15:50 PM
2 votes:
Of course, there's this:

The survey is part of measuring how students meet the social-emotional learning standards set by the state.

So now teachers are not only responsible for teaching to the test on math, spelling, things like that; they ALSO have to teach to a test about whether your child has developed the proper social skills and emotional bullshiat that the school district feels essential for his/her grade level?

And they're worried about what The Dude taught instead?
2013-05-26 05:10:21 PM
2 votes:
social-emotional learning standards

What the fark does that even mean in English?
2013-05-26 05:03:45 PM
2 votes:
The question really is, who gets custody of the data once it is collected?  Will it be available to mine by third parties (I have a feeling it will).  So, yes.  The teacher was right to bring up that point.  Not so much that underaged drinking and sex are probably going to be documented.  But the other personal medical information that can be gleaned.
2013-05-26 04:45:32 PM
2 votes:

jehovahs witness protection: SEE! Obama's brown shirts have infiltrated our skoolz.


You're trying too hard kid.
2013-05-27 01:07:34 AM
1 votes:
This shiat extends beyond school into the workplace.   Our office once circulated "anonymous feedback" questionnaires among the staff.  We walked in to find the papers on our desks with the instruction: "Nobody has to identify themselves, we'd like you to be truthful with your constructive comments".


Then we notice each form has a unique number printed oh so tiny on the back, almost microprinting, in faint pencil.  The bastiges were going to track each suggestion/feedback/comment to its source. Everybody was tipped off and the forms all came back with an identical, completely neutral statement on each one.  No more surveys.
Ehh
2013-05-27 01:06:41 AM
1 votes:

dj_bigbird: social-emotional learning standards

What the fark does that even mean in English?


The greeks don't want no freaks.
2013-05-27 12:15:55 AM
1 votes:

Indolent: phalamir: Indolent: FTFA: "The survey is part of measuring how students meet the social-emotional learning standards set by the state."

Social-emotional learning standards?  WTF is that about?

Do you act like a normal person of your age-group. "Social" meaning you can interact with others in an appropriate manner, and "emotional" that your emotional responses are appropriate to situations.  If, upon meeting a person for the first time, you scream in homicidal rage and start fling your own feces at them, yelling "I will gut you with my bare hands and then use your stomach as a cum-receptacle", you have not met the social-emotional learning standards (not even of pre-K {unless your pre-K is run by Tartars}).

It is jargon-speak for socialization, which schools are supposed to impart unto students

Yeah I know and that's fine.  WTF is the state doing setting a standard for that?


Brainwashing kids to be mindless drones. What did you think they were doing? Educating?
2013-05-26 11:47:27 PM
1 votes:
...and stories like THIS are why teachers need unions...
2013-05-26 10:37:36 PM
1 votes:
Radak: Fifth amendment?  I'm gonna go with no.
"...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."
This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.  That being said, any student certainly has the right to call bullshiat on a survey and refuse to answer.  It's just not a bill of rights issue.


Wrong answer, but thanks for playing. Do send us a post card from prison when you're convicted based on the confession you made before you were arrested.

You always have constitutional rights, they don't just kick in when you get arrested. The fifth amendment is the reason you never have to talk to the police, regardless of whether you're under arrest or not.

Any kid that answers "yes" to any of the "have you used drugs or alcohol" just handed the government (in the form of the school) a written confession to breaking the law. The cops could arrest them and then it's a little late to take the 5th.
2013-05-26 10:21:49 PM
1 votes:
Every high school should have a social studies teacher like him.
2013-05-26 08:35:54 PM
1 votes:
This crap has been going on in the public schools since the 1960s.  Corrupt surveys are given to the children with the idea of soliciting bad answers, then the "data" is compiled and used to lobby government for changes in public policy.  They not only anticipate students lying, they count on it, to skew the answers further.

Some of these were so bad that even 5th graders were refusing to take them, because even they could tell that they were designed for evil purposes.  A teacher told me of one sample question to white, suburban, middle class students:

"How often do you use heroin?  a) Once a month, b)  Several times a week, c) Once a week, d) Several times a day, e)  Once a day, f)  Every now and then, g)  Almost never, h)  never."

The correct answer for most students on a 50 question survey was almost always h), except for a few thrown in to bust up the pattern.  It asked about several drugs, alcohol, tobacco, sexual activity, shoplifting, gang membership, etc.
2013-05-26 08:25:31 PM
1 votes:

Kahabut: A school, like any other property is subject to it's own rules, and nothing changes that.


And schools, as government actors, have to comply with the Constitution in setting their rules. It's not like 'any other property' in that respect. Or a lot of other respects. Even disregarding that, school rules aren't supposed to apply to a protest off of school property while school was not in session. But you know, fark those kids.

If you give even a tiny shiat about the 1st Amendment, Morse v Frederick was an abomination.
2013-05-26 08:21:06 PM
1 votes:
worlddan
School district officials declined to provide a copy of the survey to the Daily Herald, saying the district bought the survey from a private company, Multi-Health Systems Inc., and the contents are proprietary business information.

The publicity person who said that with a straight face deserve some type of award and then the superintendent some type of firing for being a dumbass.


I totally believe that that person was serious.
Having been in meetings with folks from my old university's psychology department about extending the CS department's IT system to evaluate classes and professors at the whole university:
yes, sociology folks really are that protective and paranoid about other people seeing the questionnaire (pardon: "the instrument") they're about to hand out to thousands of students next week.

It think it's because they've written papers and theses about proving that this particular set of questions they came up with will measure X,Y and Z and then they can use "Here's scientific proof that our set of questions are great for X,Y and Z. Can you/the competition say the same?" as a selling point.
Then they hope the potential customer cares more about that scientific stamp of approval and covering his ass than about X, Y and Z being of minor or little interest to him compared to A,B and C.

You know, for situations where the actual outcome is of less interest to the buyer than being able to prove something-is-being-done(TM).
2013-05-26 08:04:29 PM
1 votes:

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Radak: Fifth amendment?  I'm gonna go with no.

"...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.  That being said, any student certainly has the right to call bullshiat on a survey and refuse to answer.  It's just not a bill of rights issue.

Sounds like a second amendment solution is needed, to me.

Click-click


I'd assert my 3rd Amendment rights.

"I'm pleading the 3rd."
"You mean the 5th?"
"Nope, the 3rd."
"The 3rd Amendment has absolutely nothing to do with this survey!"
"Exactly.  And this survey has absolutely nothing to do with education."
2013-05-26 07:55:07 PM
1 votes:
Long-haired, liberal hippie educrat is 100% correct.
2013-05-26 07:53:49 PM
1 votes:
I'm mystified as to why the school administration wants to beat him down for reinforcing a lesson he'd just taught them with a real life example. Of course, I'm also mystified as to why the school would use a printed survey to ask some very personal questions. "We're interested, but not really interested enough to actually talk to you."
2013-05-26 07:27:20 PM
1 votes:
We are from the Government. We are doing this for your own good and for your protection. We only want to help. You have nothing to fear.


i.imgur.comi.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
2013-05-26 06:16:54 PM
1 votes:

Radak: Fifth amendment?  I'm gonna go with no.

"...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.  That being said, any student certainly has the right to call bullshiat on a survey and refuse to answer.  It's just not a bill of rights issue.


Under the standard interpretation of the right, the ability to refrain from being a witness includes future and  potential criminal cases.  If you don't know whether you are a suspect in a current or future investigation you may exercise your right to deny self-incriminating testimony on the assumption that you are (or will be).  This holds especially true regarding incriminating admissions to government officials like cops, judges, and teachers.

This interpretation of the right has held up repeatedly for around 200 years now and was most explicitly formalized in the Miranda decision (which outright states that you can remain silent on arrest whether there's a formal charge filed or not, among other things), if you want to create some new interpretation you're going to have to get more than one case up to the supreme court.  Until then, you are simply incorrect under US law.  The teacher has it right.

//There are exceptions for non-state actors, but schools, especially public schools, are in fact state actors under government purview.
2013-05-26 05:53:08 PM
1 votes:

worlddan: But depending on the laws of that state it may be that any information taken from the survey could not be used against the student in effect, for legal purposes, immunizing the student.


Maybe. But without some pretty iron-clad case law, I wouldn't want to volunteer to test that 'immunity'. And even then, I wouldn't want to have to spend time and money getting it dismissed.
2013-05-26 05:50:34 PM
1 votes:
On any forms I have given my students, I have always assured them of the right to privacy either by explicitly stating any forms with possibly embarrassing data is anonymous or lack of requirement to complete forms with marked data. Neither is a Fifth Amendment rights issue, merely treating people with the respect deserved. You know what has happened? In well over a thousand forms, no one has declined to answer honestly.
2013-05-26 05:43:39 PM
1 votes:
It's time to start tarring and feathering public school administrators
2013-05-26 05:39:01 PM
1 votes:

Radak: Fifth amendment?  I'm gonna go with no.

"...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.  That being said, any student certainly has the right to call bullshiat on a survey and refuse to answer.  It's just not a bill of rights issue.


The Supreme Court ruled that you can refuse to answer a question at any time if it could be used against you.  There does not need to be a criminal case involved.

Sorry, I don't remember the citation, but it was a major case.
2013-05-26 05:34:21 PM
1 votes:

Indolent: FTFA: "The survey is part of measuring how students meet the social-emotional learning standards set by the state."

Social-emotional learning standards?  WTF is that about?


Do you act like a normal person of your age-group. "Social" meaning you can interact with others in an appropriate manner, and "emotional" that your emotional responses are appropriate to situations.  If, upon meeting a person for the first time, you scream in homicidal rage and start fling your own feces at them, yelling "I will gut you with my bare hands and then use your stomach as a cum-receptacle", you have not met the social-emotional learning standards (not even of pre-K {unless your pre-K is run by Tartars}).

It is jargon-speak for socialization, which schools are supposed to impart unto students
2013-05-26 05:30:45 PM
1 votes:

ArcadianRefugee: by answering questions on the survey, which had each student's name printed on it.

What the hell? We used similar surveys in the district I worked for and, not only were the surveys not imprinted with students' names, but the students were specifically told to not put their names on them. The few that we got back that did have a name written on it we simply shredded without reading (and certainly not turning them over to the survey agency for inclusion).

Seriously, what the hell?


How else will administration know who to flag for expulsion?
2013-05-26 05:30:29 PM
1 votes:

Indolent: FTFA: "The survey is part of measuring how students meet the social-emotional learning standards set by the state."

Social-emotional learning standards?  WTF is that about?


Are they good little automatons who blindly follow authority figures.
2013-05-26 05:25:06 PM
1 votes:

Radak: Fifth amendment?  I'm gonna go with no.

"...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.  That being said, any student certainly has the right to call bullshiat on a survey and refuse to answer.  It's just not a bill of rights issue.


Yet.  Considering that authorities can lie to you to get evidence, the only smart move is to answer anything even remotely incriminating with "I plead the Fifth". "This is not a criminal proceeding" is to be countered with "(1) And you are able to prove that negative with 100% certainty how?, and (2) I plan to keep it that way."  Considering the general chuckle-farkery of the US law enforcement apparatus and the courts' erosion of defendant rights, I would invoke the Fifth when the cops came to talk to me as the  victim of a crime.  It may not apply in all instances, but better to invoke it when it is not needed, than to not invoke it when it is.
2013-05-26 05:17:19 PM
1 votes:

dj_bigbird: social-emotional learning standards

What the fark does that even mean in English?


The short: they want to parent your kids for you, substituting their values on drugs, sex, violence, and dangerous activities for yours.
2013-05-26 05:16:05 PM
1 votes:
FTA: "We can't help them if we aren't aware of their needs,"

Heard this in my head with evil Nazi accent. "Vee simply vant to help help zee juden azzimilate mit Der brethren in zee beautiful vork camps."
2013-05-26 05:14:59 PM
1 votes:

jaytkay: Area teacher abides
[www.dailyherald.com image 170x247]


Very Dudish quote, too:  "I'm not a martyr," he said. "I'm trying to refocus people's attentions. Calm down."
2013-05-26 05:08:07 PM
1 votes:
I junderstand teachers and school officials concern about the childrens wefare. But it seems they should have known better than to think it would be OK to collect potentially damaging info without making sure the kids and parents were made fully aware.
2013-05-26 05:00:43 PM
1 votes:
Fifth amendment?  I'm gonna go with no.

"...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.  That being said, any student certainly has the right to call bullshiat on a survey and refuse to answer.  It's just not a bill of rights issue.
2013-05-26 04:59:44 PM
1 votes:
School district officials declined to provide a copy of the survey to the Daily Herald, saying the district bought the survey from a private company, Multi-Health Systems Inc., and the contents are proprietary business information.

The publicity person who said that with a straight face deserve some type of award and then the superintendent some type of firing for being a dumbass.
2013-05-26 04:55:45 PM
1 votes:
So when will the ACLU be raided for interfering with the educational process?

/because there's some administrator/school system that would ramp that up to SCOTUS if given a legal warchest
2013-05-26 04:55:15 PM
1 votes:
This will be an invaluable civics lesson for his students. Hopefully.
2013-05-26 04:54:07 PM
1 votes:

jaytkay: Area teacher abides
[www.dailyherald.com image 170x247]


^5..
First thing I thought of as soon as I saw his picture
 
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