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(Daily Herald)   Reminding the students you teach that they are also protected by the 5th amendment? That's a suspendin'   (dailyherald.com) divider line 156
    More: Asinine, Batavia, chief academic officer, John Dryden, current affairs  
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15648 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 May 2013 at 4:41 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-26 04:26:17 PM  
SEE! Obama's brown shirts have infiltrated our skoolz.
 
2013-05-26 04:45:32 PM  

jehovahs witness protection: SEE! Obama's brown shirts have infiltrated our skoolz.


You're trying too hard kid.
 
2013-05-26 04:46:46 PM  
Area teacher abides
www.dailyherald.com
 
2013-05-26 04:47:02 PM  
Dealing with BS from the State level is why my Dad jumped at the early retirement offer when it was offered. Who the heck thought that asking these kinds of questions in an non-anonymous manner was a good idea?
 
2013-05-26 04:50:08 PM  

Mrtraveler01: jehovahs witness protection: SEE! Obama's brown shirts have infiltrated our skoolz.

You're trying too hard kid.


Dyd eye speel two guud?
 
2013-05-26 04:51:30 PM  
If Clarence Thomas had his way, none of those students would have any Constitutional rights until they hit their 18th birthday.
 
2013-05-26 04:53:15 PM  
The answer is always C, so what's the big deal?
 
2013-05-26 04:53:52 PM  
The school is teaching these kids some valuable lesson: Grownups can't be trusted. And people with power act arbitrarily and capriciously.
 
2013-05-26 04:53:55 PM  
and the contents are proprietary business information

Why yes, Virginia, targeted assassinations by legitimate businessmen or mob hits as they are know on the street are proprietary business information.

And collusion by a government official with a private business to deprive a protected group of their Constitutional rights is going to sell a lot of Depends to that school board.

elizabethemkenussenate2012.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-05-26 04:54:07 PM  

jaytkay: Area teacher abides
[www.dailyherald.com image 170x247]


^5..
First thing I thought of as soon as I saw his picture
 
2013-05-26 04:54:30 PM  
*lessons. Dang incomplete rewrites.
 
2013-05-26 04:55:15 PM  
This will be an invaluable civics lesson for his students. Hopefully.
 
2013-05-26 04:55:45 PM  
So when will the ACLU be raided for interfering with the educational process?

/because there's some administrator/school system that would ramp that up to SCOTUS if given a legal warchest
 
2013-05-26 04:56:30 PM  

jehovahs witness protection: Mrtraveler01: jehovahs witness protection: SEE! Obama's brown shirts have infiltrated our skoolz.

You're trying too hard kid.

Dyd eye speel two guud?


Perhaps, but changing Obama to 0bama would have improved your score. We would have also accepted Fartbongo Antichrist Bin Laden.
 
2013-05-26 04:59:44 PM  
School district officials declined to provide a copy of the survey to the Daily Herald, saying the district bought the survey from a private company, Multi-Health Systems Inc., and the contents are proprietary business information.

The publicity person who said that with a straight face deserve some type of award and then the superintendent some type of firing for being a dumbass.
 
2013-05-26 05:00:43 PM  
Fifth amendment?  I'm gonna go with no.

"...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.  That being said, any student certainly has the right to call bullshiat on a survey and refuse to answer.  It's just not a bill of rights issue.
 
2013-05-26 05:01:35 PM  

Anderson's Pooper: Dealing with BS from the State level is why my Dad jumped at the early retirement offer when it was offered. Who the heck thought that asking these kinds of questions in an non-anonymous manner was a good idea?


I should say.  Any survey like that I saw in school had, at best, questions on your gender and maybe racial background.  Having your name on the test is just retarded.
 
2013-05-26 05:01:48 PM  

Mega Steve: jehovahs witness protection: Mrtraveler01: jehovahs witness protection: SEE! Obama's brown shirts have infiltrated our skoolz.

You're trying too hard kid.

Dyd eye speel two guud?

Perhaps, but changing Obama to 0bama would have improved your score. We would have also accepted Fartbongo Antichrist Bin Laden.


Taking notes. Thanks!
I'm new at this whole trolling thing.
 
2013-05-26 05:03:04 PM  

Radak: Fifth amendment?  I'm gonna go with no.

"...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.  That being said, any student certainly has the right to call bullshiat on a survey and refuse to answer.  It's just not a bill of rights issue.


Sounds like a second amendment solution is needed, to me.

Click-click
 
2013-05-26 05:03:45 PM  
The question really is, who gets custody of the data once it is collected?  Will it be available to mine by third parties (I have a feeling it will).  So, yes.  The teacher was right to bring up that point.  Not so much that underaged drinking and sex are probably going to be documented.  But the other personal medical information that can be gleaned.
 
2013-05-26 05:08:07 PM  
I junderstand teachers and school officials concern about the childrens wefare. But it seems they should have known better than to think it would be OK to collect potentially damaging info without making sure the kids and parents were made fully aware.
 
2013-05-26 05:10:21 PM  
social-emotional learning standards

What the fark does that even mean in English?
 
2013-05-26 05:14:39 PM  

jehovahs witness protection: Mega Steve: jehovahs witness protection: Mrtraveler01: jehovahs witness protection: SEE! Obama's brown shirts have infiltrated our skoolz.

You're trying too hard kid.

Dyd eye speel two guud?

Perhaps, but changing Obama to 0bama would have improved your score. We would have also accepted Fartbongo Antichrist Bin Laden.

Taking notes. Thanks!
I'm new at this whole trolling thing.


Also, if you really want bites, put it in the trolling tab.
 
2013-05-26 05:14:59 PM  

jaytkay: Area teacher abides
[www.dailyherald.com image 170x247]


Very Dudish quote, too:  "I'm not a martyr," he said. "I'm trying to refocus people's attentions. Calm down."
 
2013-05-26 05:15:32 PM  

meanmutton: jehovahs witness protection: Mega Steve: jehovahs witness protection: Mrtraveler01: jehovahs witness protection: SEE! Obama's brown shirts have infiltrated our skoolz.

You're trying too hard kid.

Dyd eye speel two guud?

Perhaps, but changing Obama to 0bama would have improved your score. We would have also accepted Fartbongo Antichrist Bin Laden.

Taking notes. Thanks!
I'm new at this whole trolling thing.

Also, if you really want bites, put it in the trolling tab.


Politics tab. Freudian slip.
 
2013-05-26 05:15:50 PM  
Of course, there's this:

The survey is part of measuring how students meet the social-emotional learning standards set by the state.

So now teachers are not only responsible for teaching to the test on math, spelling, things like that; they ALSO have to teach to a test about whether your child has developed the proper social skills and emotional bullshiat that the school district feels essential for his/her grade level?

And they're worried about what The Dude taught instead?
 
2013-05-26 05:15:55 PM  
Ahahahaha.... anyone who thinks that the kids who answered yes on the drug/alcohol questions weren't going to be name-dropped to the cop stationed in the school are delusional.

Of course, it would never be in writing, but names would be mentioned.
 
2013-05-26 05:16:05 PM  
FTA: "We can't help them if we aren't aware of their needs,"

Heard this in my head with evil Nazi accent. "Vee simply vant to help help zee juden azzimilate mit Der brethren in zee beautiful vork camps."
 
2013-05-26 05:16:21 PM  

Anderson's Pooper: Dealing with BS from the State level is why my Dad jumped at the early retirement offer when it was offered. Who the heck thought that asking these kinds of questions in an non-anonymous manner was a good idea?


One of the most intelligence-impaired species on the planet.  School officials.
And we put these mental midgets in charge of educating our kids,

There really needs to be a website set up. Call it "StupidSchoolBoardTricks.com"

And the internet can ridicule and shame these individuals because that's the only way the system can be fixed.
 
2013-05-26 05:17:19 PM  

dj_bigbird: social-emotional learning standards

What the fark does that even mean in English?


The short: they want to parent your kids for you, substituting their values on drugs, sex, violence, and dangerous activities for yours.
 
2013-05-26 05:17:24 PM  
The surveys included the names of the students?

Yeah, they're going to be 100% truthful there.
 
2013-05-26 05:19:14 PM  

ClavellBCMI: If Clarence Thomas had his way, none of those students would have any Constitutional rights until they hit their 18th birthday.


Can they be aborted?
 
2013-05-26 05:19:28 PM  

Radak: Fifth amendment?  I'm gonna go with no.

"...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.  That being said, any student certainly has the right to call bullshiat on a survey and refuse to answer.  It's just not a bill of rights issue.


From Barron's Law Dictionary:

SELF-INCRIMINATION, PRIVILEGE AGAINST the constitutional right of a person to refuse to answer questions or otherwise give testimony against himself or herself which will subject him or her to an incrimination. This right under the Fifth Amendment (often called simply PLEADING THE FIFTH) is now applicable to the states through the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, 378 U.S. 1,8, and is applicable in any situation, civil or criminal where the state attempts to compel incriminating testimony. (There are many caveats following this section.)
 
2013-05-26 05:22:26 PM  

HighlanderRPI: Ahahahaha.... anyone who thinks that the kids who answered yes on the drug/alcohol questions weren't going to be name-dropped to the cop stationed in the school are delusional.

Of course, it would never be in writing, but names would be mentioned.


symptomoftheuniverse: FTA: "We can't help them if we aren't aware of their needs,"

Heard this in my head with evil Nazi accent. "Vee simply vant to help help zee juden azzimilate mit Der brethren in zee beautiful vork camps."


These.
 
2013-05-26 05:24:30 PM  

Radak: Fifth amendment?  I'm gonna go with no.

"...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.


The Supreme Court a long time ago expanded the use of the 5A beyond criminal cases; it basically now means any testimony under oath. The situation here is a complicated one both because they are students and because it is not clear to me what legal effect filling out the survey has under the law of that state. The 5A might apply and it might not.

My gut reaction is that the state probably has a legal right to force them to take the survey but has no legal basis for forcing them to fill it out honestly.
 
2013-05-26 05:25:06 PM  

Radak: Fifth amendment?  I'm gonna go with no.

"...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.  That being said, any student certainly has the right to call bullshiat on a survey and refuse to answer.  It's just not a bill of rights issue.


Yet.  Considering that authorities can lie to you to get evidence, the only smart move is to answer anything even remotely incriminating with "I plead the Fifth". "This is not a criminal proceeding" is to be countered with "(1) And you are able to prove that negative with 100% certainty how?, and (2) I plan to keep it that way."  Considering the general chuckle-farkery of the US law enforcement apparatus and the courts' erosion of defendant rights, I would invoke the Fifth when the cops came to talk to me as the  victim of a crime.  It may not apply in all instances, but better to invoke it when it is not needed, than to not invoke it when it is.
 
2013-05-26 05:26:10 PM  
FTFA: "The survey is part of measuring how students meet the social-emotional learning standards set by the state."

Social-emotional learning standards?  WTF is that about?
 
2013-05-26 05:26:21 PM  

editer: The school is teaching these kids some valuable lesson: Grownups can't be trusted. And people with power act arbitrarily and capriciously.


When I was a kid we taught kids that lesson by drafting them and sending them to Vietnam.
 
2013-05-26 05:27:06 PM  

meanmutton: meanmutton: jehovahs witness protection: Mega Steve: jehovahs witness protection: Mrtraveler01: jehovahs witness protection: SEE! Obama's brown shirts have infiltrated our skoolz.

You're trying too hard kid.

Dyd eye speel two guud?

Perhaps, but changing Obama to 0bama would have improved your score. We would have also accepted Fartbongo Antichrist Bin Laden.

Taking notes. Thanks!
I'm new at this whole trolling thing.

Also, if you really want bites, put it in the trolling tab.

Politics tab. Freudian slip.


LOL
 
2013-05-26 05:27:27 PM  
by answering questions on the survey, which had each student's name printed on it.

What the hell? We used similar surveys in the district I worked for and, not only were the surveys not imprinted with students' names, but the students were specifically told to not put their names on them. The few that we got back that did have a name written on it we simply shredded without reading (and certainly not turning them over to the survey agency for inclusion).

Seriously, what the hell?
 
2013-05-26 05:29:05 PM  

jacjacatk: and is applicable in any situation, civil or criminal where the state attempts to compel incriminating testimony


[...and others pointing out similar...]

Aha.  I try not to follow much American law, so I wasn't aware of this extension to the words in the constitution.  Thank you all for the education!
 
2013-05-26 05:29:05 PM  
Ah, I see the problem:

The results were to be reviewed by school officials, including social workers, counselors and psychologists. The survey was not a diagnostic tool, but a "screener" to figure out which students might need specific help, Newkirk said.

This wasn't one of those national "state of our children" surveys they do; this was this one particular place being incredibly intrusive. "For the children's sake." Uh huh.
 
2013-05-26 05:30:29 PM  

Indolent: FTFA: "The survey is part of measuring how students meet the social-emotional learning standards set by the state."

Social-emotional learning standards?  WTF is that about?


Are they good little automatons who blindly follow authority figures.
 
2013-05-26 05:30:45 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: by answering questions on the survey, which had each student's name printed on it.

What the hell? We used similar surveys in the district I worked for and, not only were the surveys not imprinted with students' names, but the students were specifically told to not put their names on them. The few that we got back that did have a name written on it we simply shredded without reading (and certainly not turning them over to the survey agency for inclusion).

Seriously, what the hell?


How else will administration know who to flag for expulsion?
 
2013-05-26 05:32:10 PM  
The teacher deserves a Hero tag.
 
2013-05-26 05:32:12 PM  

Gyrfalcon: social-emotional learning standards set by the state.


That phrase alone is one of the biggest reasons why this nation is doomed....and that a little reset might be a great thing. "The state" has grown far too big for anyone's good.
 
2013-05-26 05:34:21 PM  

Indolent: FTFA: "The survey is part of measuring how students meet the social-emotional learning standards set by the state."

Social-emotional learning standards?  WTF is that about?


Do you act like a normal person of your age-group. "Social" meaning you can interact with others in an appropriate manner, and "emotional" that your emotional responses are appropriate to situations.  If, upon meeting a person for the first time, you scream in homicidal rage and start fling your own feces at them, yelling "I will gut you with my bare hands and then use your stomach as a cum-receptacle", you have not met the social-emotional learning standards (not even of pre-K {unless your pre-K is run by Tartars}).

It is jargon-speak for socialization, which schools are supposed to impart unto students
 
2013-05-26 05:35:25 PM  

Radak: Fifth amendment?  I'm gonna go with no.

"...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.  That being said, any student certainly has the right to call bullshiat on a survey and refuse to answer.  It's just not a bill of rights issue.



It doesn't have to be a criminal case for the 5th to apply. SCOTUS rulings through the years have established that. For instance, it's not a "criminal case" when a police officer pulls you over while driving and demands you provide him with incriminating statements and yet you are still entitled to your 5th amendment rights.
 
2013-05-26 05:35:55 PM  

phalamir: Indolent: FTFA: "The survey is part of measuring how students meet the social-emotional learning standards set by the state."

Social-emotional learning standards?  WTF is that about?

Do you act like a normal person of your age-group. "Social" meaning you can interact with others in an appropriate manner, and "emotional" that your emotional responses are appropriate to situations.  If, upon meeting a person for the first time, you scream in homicidal rage and start fling your own feces at them, yelling "I will gut you with my bare hands and then use your stomach as a cum-receptacle", you have not met the social-emotional learning standards (not even of pre-K {unless your pre-K is run by Tartars}).

It is jargon-speak for socialization, which schools are supposed to impart unto students


Yeah I know and that's fine.  WTF is the state doing setting a standard for that?
 
2013-05-26 05:36:35 PM  

taurusowner: Gyrfalcon: social-emotional learning standards set by the state.

That phrase alone is one of the biggest reasons why this nation is doomed....and that a little reset might be a great thing. "The state" has grown far too big for anyone's good.


Really?  Because my N Florida rural redneck school in the 70s and 80s did this.  It was called "teaching you manners", and I don't seem to recall parents being up in arms that the school wasn't Thunderdome
 
2013-05-26 05:38:49 PM  
In an era where students can have their bags and lockers searched at will, and even be strip-searched, we're  only upset about a bullshiat survey form?
 
2013-05-26 05:39:01 PM  

Radak: Fifth amendment?  I'm gonna go with no.

"...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.  That being said, any student certainly has the right to call bullshiat on a survey and refuse to answer.  It's just not a bill of rights issue.


The Supreme Court ruled that you can refuse to answer a question at any time if it could be used against you.  There does not need to be a criminal case involved.

Sorry, I don't remember the citation, but it was a major case.
 
2013-05-26 05:39:07 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: Ah, I see the problem:

The results were to be reviewed by school officials, including social workers, counselors and psychologists. The survey was not a diagnostic tool, but a "screener" to figure out which students might need specific help, Newkirk said.

This wasn't one of those national "state of our children" surveys they do; this was this one particular place being incredibly intrusive. "For the children's sake." Uh huh.


This fact cuts both ways. Many states have work product shield laws that prevent the work product of mental health professionals from being used in a court of law. The limitations here very greatly state by state. But depending on the laws of that state it may be that any information taken from the survey could not be used against the student in effect, for legal purposes, immunizing the student. And it is well settled that if one is immunized from prosecution for one's testimony then the 5A doesn't apply.
 
2013-05-26 05:40:24 PM  
The students should have lied on the form.  Write (in the margins?)  that they get hard drugs from the school board members.
 
2013-05-26 05:42:44 PM  

Any Pie Left: In an era where students can have their bags and lockers searched at will, and even be strip-searched, we're  only upset about a bullshiat survey form?


A locker is school property, so I guess there is no expectation of privacy.  But a backpack is personal property and should be protected.  You don't shed your Rights when you enter the school grounds.
 
2013-05-26 05:43:39 PM  
It's time to start tarring and feathering public school administrators
 
2013-05-26 05:45:39 PM  

Indolent: phalamir: Indolent: FTFA: "The survey is part of measuring how students meet the social-emotional learning standards set by the state."

Social-emotional learning standards?  WTF is that about?

Do you act like a normal person of your age-group. "Social" meaning you can interact with others in an appropriate manner, and "emotional" that your emotional responses are appropriate to situations.  If, upon meeting a person for the first time, you scream in homicidal rage and start fling your own feces at them, yelling "I will gut you with my bare hands and then use your stomach as a cum-receptacle", you have not met the social-emotional learning standards (not even of pre-K {unless your pre-K is run by Tartars}).

It is jargon-speak for socialization, which schools are supposed to impart unto students

Yeah I know and that's fine.  WTF is the state doing setting a standard for that?


Umm, because if they are "supposed to impart unto students", they need to have a standard upon which to impart unto students.  Otherwise, you have Mrs. Smith, who thinks the Victorian were dangerously libertine anarchists, and Ms. Sparkle Dewshine, who thinks communes are fascist temples to The Man, confusing the hell out of students.  You do realize that the standard probably reads "Third grade students shall generally sit through a class period without undue fidgeting and whispering, and understand they need to raise their hands to receive permission to go to the bathroom before bolting for the door.  Proper use of "Please", "Thank you", and "you are welcome" should be used by students in the appropriate contexts", right?

I seriously had this stuff on my report cards in elementary school.  It filled a good two pages of the thing, and told my parents in rather specific detail exactly how socialized I was pretending to be.  And the general hubbub is about how schools don't teach students manners these days - are you really biatching that they are trying to do that?
 
2013-05-26 05:47:19 PM  
You have to know that such a questionnaire will follow that person throughout their life, and WILL be an instrument to some form of judgement against you in the future.

EVERYONE IS GUILTY OF SOMETHING.
 
2013-05-26 05:48:34 PM  
We did these surveys in school. We didn't have our names on it. And if it did I wouldn't of done it.
This is a good teacher, looking out for the kids. Give him his job back
 
2013-05-26 05:49:25 PM  
You can compare this to the pre-ban of PED in MLB.  They collected info and have leaked all the findings and names of the people that violated the new list of banned substances even though it didn't apply to them. It still damages their reputation, and probably put them on a watch list to be tested more.  I like teachers that actually help students understand about the relevance of self incrimination in contemporary society.

Kids, always keep your mouth shut about drugs and alcohol, you can and will be labeled as such, and even if you don't have a problem, people will assume you do.  If you have a problem, keep your mouth shut and and ask for help from someone you can trust...  maybe a teacher like this dude.
 
2013-05-26 05:50:34 PM  
On any forms I have given my students, I have always assured them of the right to privacy either by explicitly stating any forms with possibly embarrassing data is anonymous or lack of requirement to complete forms with marked data. Neither is a Fifth Amendment rights issue, merely treating people with the respect deserved. You know what has happened? In well over a thousand forms, no one has declined to answer honestly.
 
2013-05-26 05:53:08 PM  

worlddan: But depending on the laws of that state it may be that any information taken from the survey could not be used against the student in effect, for legal purposes, immunizing the student.


Maybe. But without some pretty iron-clad case law, I wouldn't want to volunteer to test that 'immunity'. And even then, I wouldn't want to have to spend time and money getting it dismissed.
 
2013-05-26 05:54:09 PM  

phalamir: taurusowner: Gyrfalcon: social-emotional learning standards set by the state.

That phrase alone is one of the biggest reasons why this nation is doomed....and that a little reset might be a great thing. "The state" has grown far too big for anyone's good.

Really?  Because my N Florida rural redneck school in the 70s and 80s did this.  It was called "teaching you manners", and I don't seem to recall parents being up in arms that the school wasn't Thunderdome


But you didn't have to take a test for it. There weren't state standards for it. How the hell do you have "state standards" for "social-emotional" skills, even assuming there are any?
 
2013-05-26 05:59:12 PM  
No pics of The Dude, fark I am dissapoint
 
2013-05-26 05:59:57 PM  
Is this about that Nick Nolte movie?
 
2013-05-26 06:02:54 PM  

jaytkay: Area teacher abides
[www.dailyherald.com image 170x247]


Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, uh, your opinion, man.
 
2013-05-26 06:07:19 PM  

phalamir: And the general hubbub is about how schools don't teach students manners these days - are you really biatching that they are trying to do that?


What this person said.

Gyrfalcon: But you didn't have to take a test for it. There weren't state standards for it. How the hell do you have "state standards" for "social-emotional" skills, even assuming there are any?


Not something I would trust the state with.
 
2013-05-26 06:16:34 PM  
What's the point?  If you answer, "fif" for a question, I'm going to assume the answer is Yes.  That's your way of saying, "Yes, I did smoke pot, but I'm not saying I smoked pot, so you can't claim I said I smoked pot.  But we both know I did."

If you're that worried about it, just answer NO!  This isn't a grand jury.  You're not before congress.  It's a damn high school survey.
 
2013-05-26 06:16:54 PM  

Radak: Fifth amendment?  I'm gonna go with no.

"...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.  That being said, any student certainly has the right to call bullshiat on a survey and refuse to answer.  It's just not a bill of rights issue.


Under the standard interpretation of the right, the ability to refrain from being a witness includes future and  potential criminal cases.  If you don't know whether you are a suspect in a current or future investigation you may exercise your right to deny self-incriminating testimony on the assumption that you are (or will be).  This holds especially true regarding incriminating admissions to government officials like cops, judges, and teachers.

This interpretation of the right has held up repeatedly for around 200 years now and was most explicitly formalized in the Miranda decision (which outright states that you can remain silent on arrest whether there's a formal charge filed or not, among other things), if you want to create some new interpretation you're going to have to get more than one case up to the supreme court.  Until then, you are simply incorrect under US law.  The teacher has it right.

//There are exceptions for non-state actors, but schools, especially public schools, are in fact state actors under government purview.
 
nm
2013-05-26 06:17:17 PM  

Radak: Fifth amendment?  I'm gonna go with no.

"...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.  That being said, any student certainly has the right to call bullshiat on a survey and refuse to answer.  It's just not a bill of rights issue.


You have a fairly screwed up and incorrect understanding of the 5th amendments.

You have the absolute right to refuse to answer any question and make a statement that could be used to incriminate you.  This right does not attach at trial or even when a criminal investigation begins.  It is not limited to the current investigation.
Answers to this survey could absolutely be used against you, for example:
- Start an investigation
- If the kid's locker is searched, and they find MJ and he claims he's never consumed MJ, this culd be used against him.
- Based on this survey he would likely be forced to cooperate with counseling or something.  He might suffer academic consequences or even criminal conseques.
That is a few examples
/Criminal defense attorney
//When in doubt STFU and demand a lawyer
///When not in doubt, really STFU and demand a lawyer because they're probably playing you with the Reid technique.
 
2013-05-26 06:19:53 PM  
We had an anonymous survey like this in 9th grade. I was actually a very buttoned-up person and didn't drink/do drugs/do anything really, but I answered it very jokingly. I wish I could remember my exact answers because they were funny, but when it asked if you drank, I would write things like how difficult it was to find a good wine, and that I enjoyed a nice campari cocktail on the veranda, etc.
 
2013-05-26 06:20:46 PM  

Gyrfalcon: phalamir: taurusowner: Gyrfalcon: social-emotional learning standards set by the state.

That phrase alone is one of the biggest reasons why this nation is doomed....and that a little reset might be a great thing. "The state" has grown far too big for anyone's good.

Really?  Because my N Florida rural redneck school in the 70s and 80s did this.  It was called "teaching you manners", and I don't seem to recall parents being up in arms that the school wasn't Thunderdome

But you didn't have to take a test for it. There weren't state standards for it. How the hell do you have "state standards" for "social-emotional" skills, even assuming there are any?


Okay - in more detail: When I was in elementary school, my report card had two parts.  There were the letter grades for my courses.  there was also a section with various social standards listed.  they were stuff like "Knows how to share", and "Speaks at an appropriate volume" and "Plays well with others".  For each, I got a :) or a :| or a :(.The teacher basically decided, upon watching me over the six-week period for the report card, how well I was meeting basic social standards.  They weren't graded, but my parents made sure I understood that Bad Things would happen to me if I didn't shape up.  And I am sure that the kids who did badly in academics, who also had lots of :( s were the ones who got the behavioral classes with the Evil biatch.

They are not doing a standardized test of handshaking protocol, but gross measurements of how students are developing socially and emotionally.  There is a good bit of literature and research on what a third-grader, or an eight-grader, or a HS senior should be like if they are properly socialized; and teachers are trained to realize what a properly socialized student looks like - and what a badly socialized one is like.  Bad socialization often lines up with learning problems and/or home issues.  Being able to apply a standardized rubric to that can help identify problems, preferably before the police get involved.  It also moves it from "my gut says so" to "I saw this happen, which is out of the ordinary"; once might be just a kid with a bad day, but a pattern says you need to check on the problem, so you set the standard, apply it, measure it, and look for long-term or massively egregious deviations from the norm.
 
2013-05-26 06:23:27 PM  

OgreMagi: Any Pie Left: In an era where students can have their bags and lockers searched at will, and even be strip-searched, we're  only upset about a bullshiat survey form?

A locker is school property, so I guess there is no expectation of privacy.  But a backpack is personal property and should be protected.  You don't shed your Rights when you enter the school grounds.


Oh but you do. Any activity that can be in some way construed as "interfering with the educational process" can be banned.

upload.wikimedia.org

Morse v. Frederick

No First Amendment rights for you. Not yours.
 
2013-05-26 06:26:50 PM  

Vangor: On any forms I have given my students, I have always assured them of the right to privacy either by explicitly stating any forms with possibly embarrassing data is anonymous or lack of requirement to complete forms with marked data. Neither is a Fifth Amendment rights issue, merely treating people with the respect deserved. You know what has happened? In well over a thousand forms, no one has declined to answer honestly.


Everyone answered honestly? And you know this because they told you?
 
2013-05-26 06:29:49 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-05-26 06:31:59 PM  
Bertalmio was outraged. The 2002 graduate, who took one class with Dryden, credits him with teaching him how to examine positions and make logical arguments, no matter where one stands politically.
"Back it up - give me evidence," is what Dryden taught, Bertalmio said.


3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-05-26 06:32:49 PM  
But John Dryden said he's not the point. He wants people to focus on the issue he raised: Whether school officials considered that students could incriminate themselves with their answers to the survey that included questions about drug and alcohol use.

/Hmm..the school wanting the kids to give up evidence that could get them suspended or expelled. Without advising them of their rights. I would tell them to jam their survey up their asses. fark their survey. I would fill it out, saying i use every drug on the planet, drink to excess every night, and touch myself while i peep into the girls shower room, when im not getting blown by the MILF nurse that works in the office. And also i would say i'm banging the principles wife and daughter..at the same time, in his bed.

/put that in your survey jackasses.
 
2013-05-26 06:33:11 PM  
Those surveys are bollocks anyway. Whenever I had to take one in school I always wrote down the most far fetched and ridiculous answers.
 
2013-05-26 06:38:42 PM  

fusillade762: OgreMagi: Any Pie Left: In an era where students can have their bags and lockers searched at will, and even be strip-searched, we're  only upset about a bullshiat survey form?

A locker is school property, so I guess there is no expectation of privacy.  But a backpack is personal property and should be protected.  You don't shed your Rights when you enter the school grounds.

Oh but you do. Any activity that can be in some way construed as "interfering with the educational process" can be banned.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 364x273]

Morse v. Frederick

No First Amendment rights for you. Not yours.


Yeah, that one made me stabby. Scalia (or Thomas, or Kennedy, or Alito, or Roberts) needs to hurry up and farking die in these next 3 or so years. Utterly farking ridiculous.
 
2013-05-26 06:39:03 PM  

DerAppie: Vangor: On any forms I have given my students, I have always assured them of the right to privacy either by explicitly stating any forms with possibly embarrassing data is anonymous or lack of requirement to complete forms with marked data. Neither is a Fifth Amendment rights issue, merely treating people with the respect deserved. You know what has happened? In well over a thousand forms, no one has declined to answer honestly.

Everyone answered honestly? And you know this because they told you?


Probably because students have the guile and subtly of mentally-retarded budgies, but all think they are Machiavellian satirists.  Spotting bullshiat is rather easy.  So easy, in fact, that I often want to smack them for how badly they lie - I feel insulted that they don't show me the respect to offer up a lie that at least would possibly fool a third-grader.  I deal with college kids, but do you realize how many still trot out "Granny died" when exams come up?  And the moral outrage if I suggest proof (though I rarely do anymore, since any yahoo with a color printer can pop out one of those funeral home souvenir novelty Psalm 23 cards)? Sometimes I get "Uncle Bob died", but Granny is the go-to gal, and if all these kids are telling the truth, I have the amazing ability to plan exams and paper due dates on the future death dates of many, many grandmothers - I am the Bane of Blue Hairs.

/I have serious toyed with announcing on the first day of a new semester that the students need to tell their grandmothers to be especially careful around the exam dates, as their lives are in mortal peril at those times.
//My boss told me this was (a) tacky, and (b) unprofessional
 
2013-05-26 06:42:42 PM  
"We can't help punish them if we aren't aware of their needs crimes," Barshinger said.
 
2013-05-26 06:43:54 PM  
I hope that the kid who ratted him out gets daily swirlies. I think the whole school board should get daily swirlies too, but you know, you can't have everything.

/swirlies for all!
 
2013-05-26 06:46:46 PM  
There was an "anonymous" survey at my high school about student drug use. For a lark I checked ALL the boxes.... Over a decade afterwards there was a blood drive at work. I hadn't been able to donate blood because of a couple of tattoos during my 20s, and was looking forward giving. They ran my ID and said I couldn't donate. I asked why and they said they couldn't tell me but if I filled out a form I'd receive the reason in the mail. Filled out the form and two months later received a letter saying I was in their database as an intravenous drug user....
 
2013-05-26 06:52:52 PM  

Radak: Fifth amendment?  I'm gonna go with no.

"...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.  That being said, any student certainly has the right to call bullshiat on a survey and refuse to answer.  It's just not a bill of rights issue.


The what right is the student exercising?
 
2013-05-26 06:56:48 PM  

worlddan: My gut reaction is that the state probably has a legal right to force them to take the survey but has no legal basis for forcing them to fill it out honestly.


My gut says the survey should be anonymous if responses are mandatory.
 
2013-05-26 07:10:50 PM  

phalamir: DerAppie: Everyone answered honestly? And you know this because they told you?

Probably because students have the guile and subtly of mentally-retarded budgies, but all think they are Machiavellian satirists.


I'm sure there is some sort of bias going on there. Almost as if you only caught the people who were really bad at it and have no sense of creativity at all. Gramps died? Who actually thinks that works during exam time or around dead lines? That only works if the goal was to get the teacher suspicious.
 
2013-05-26 07:18:11 PM  

fusillade762: OgreMagi: Any Pie Left: In an era where students can have their bags and lockers searched at will, and even be strip-searched, we're  only upset about a bullshiat survey form?

A locker is school property, so I guess there is no expectation of privacy.  But a backpack is personal property and should be protected.  You don't shed your Rights when you enter the school grounds.

Oh but you do. Any activity that can be in some way construed as "interfering with the educational process" can be banned.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 364x273]

Morse v. Frederick

No First Amendment rights for you. Not yours.


I was flabbergasted when the courts ruled against the student.  But they also think a corporation is a person, so I guess I should have expected this.

Corporations are people.
Students aren't.
Got it.
 
2013-05-26 07:25:58 PM  

phalamir: Probably because students have the guile and subtly of mentally-retarded budgies, but all think they are Machiavellian satirists. Spotting bullshiat is rather easy. So easy, in fact, that I often want to smack them for how badly they lie - I feel insulted that they don't show me the respect to offer up a lie that at least would possibly fool a third-grader.


My stepdaughter fit that description perfectly.  She was one of the worse liars that I ever had the displeasure of listening to.  It wasn't just the completely unbelievable BS that came out of her mouth, she also had a certain tone of voice that she used whenever she was lying and ONLY when she was lying.  I believe the thinking is, "if I act very serious he'll believe me."  Now I understand what my dad meant by "don't use that tone with me!"

After being a parent to her, I called my dad up and asked him why he let me live and apologized for the crap I put him through.
 
2013-05-26 07:27:07 PM  

jehovahs witness protection: I'm new at this whole trolling thing.


Just because you have amateur skills doesn't mean you're a beginner.
 
2013-05-26 07:27:20 PM  
We are from the Government. We are doing this for your own good and for your protection. We only want to help. You have nothing to fear.


i.imgur.comi.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
 
2013-05-26 07:38:38 PM  

worlddan: My gut reaction is that the state probably has a legal right to force them to take the survey


Under what authorizing legislation? You're required to fill out the your census form and tax return only because there's a specific law that says so -- what law gives school administrators the right to compel participation in health screenings (absent an eminent threat to public health)?
 
2013-05-26 07:41:00 PM  

fusillade762: OgreMagi: Any Pie Left: In an era where students can have their bags and lockers searched at will, and even be strip-searched, we're  only upset about a bullshiat survey form?

A locker is school property, so I guess there is no expectation of privacy.  But a backpack is personal property and should be protected.  You don't shed your Rights when you enter the school grounds.

Oh but you do. Any activity that can be in some way construed as "interfering with the educational process" can be banned.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 364x273]

Morse v. Frederick

No First Amendment rights for you. Not yours.


There was also Tinker v. Des Moines, which stated that the 1st Amendment right of free speech does not trump the need to maintain school discipline.
 
2013-05-26 07:42:08 PM  

DerAppie: Vangor: On any forms I have given my students, I have always assured them of the right to privacy either by explicitly stating any forms with possibly embarrassing data is anonymous or lack of requirement to complete forms with marked data. Neither is a Fifth Amendment rights issue, merely treating people with the respect deserved. You know what has happened? In well over a thousand forms, no one has declined to answer honestly.

Everyone answered honestly? And you know this because they told you?


Because I know the difference between expected answers and honest answers on my instruments. Expected answers are center but positive, whereas honest answers tend positive but are all over.
 
2013-05-26 07:53:49 PM  
I'm mystified as to why the school administration wants to beat him down for reinforcing a lesson he'd just taught them with a real life example. Of course, I'm also mystified as to why the school would use a printed survey to ask some very personal questions. "We're interested, but not really interested enough to actually talk to you."
 
2013-05-26 07:55:07 PM  
Long-haired, liberal hippie educrat is 100% correct.
 
2013-05-26 08:04:29 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Radak: Fifth amendment?  I'm gonna go with no.

"...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.  That being said, any student certainly has the right to call bullshiat on a survey and refuse to answer.  It's just not a bill of rights issue.

Sounds like a second amendment solution is needed, to me.

Click-click


I'd assert my 3rd Amendment rights.

"I'm pleading the 3rd."
"You mean the 5th?"
"Nope, the 3rd."
"The 3rd Amendment has absolutely nothing to do with this survey!"
"Exactly.  And this survey has absolutely nothing to do with education."
 
2013-05-26 08:10:43 PM  

Vangor: DerAppie: Vangor: On any forms I have given my students, I have always assured them of the right to privacy either by explicitly stating any forms with possibly embarrassing data is anonymous or lack of requirement to complete forms with marked data. Neither is a Fifth Amendment rights issue, merely treating people with the respect deserved. You know what has happened? In well over a thousand forms, no one has declined to answer honestly.

Everyone answered honestly? And you know this because they told you?

Because I know the difference between expected answers and honest answers on my instruments. Expected answers are center but positive, whereas honest answers tend positive but are all over.


So you are saying that they were speaking the truth because statistics told you so. I had a course in that as well and there is no way that you can claim that they were honest. Just that your scoring method minimised the influence of socially acceptable answering patterns.

Were they honest? As a group, maybe. As individuals? No way to tell if someone answering that (s)he never smoked pot is actually speaking the truth.
 
2013-05-26 08:20:56 PM  

OgreMagi: fusillade762: OgreMagi: Any Pie Left: In an era where students can have their bags and lockers searched at will, and even be strip-searched, we're  only upset about a bullshiat survey form?

A locker is school property, so I guess there is no expectation of privacy.  But a backpack is personal property and should be protected.  You don't shed your Rights when you enter the school grounds.

Oh but you do. Any activity that can be in some way construed as "interfering with the educational process" can be banned.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 364x273]

Morse v. Frederick

No First Amendment rights for you. Not yours.

I was flabbergasted when the courts ruled against the student.  But they also think a corporation is a person, so I guess I should have expected this.

Corporations are people.
Students aren't.
Got it.


That is pretty idiotic.  I mean you.  A school, like any other property is subject to it's own rules, and nothing changes that.

Ever walked into a court room, federal building of any kind?  You were searched.  Maybe more than once.  Did you cry about your rights?  How about flying?  Still think that is how it works?  Well, that's because your education came from the internet, and the internet as a whole is retarded.
 
2013-05-26 08:21:06 PM  
worlddan
School district officials declined to provide a copy of the survey to the Daily Herald, saying the district bought the survey from a private company, Multi-Health Systems Inc., and the contents are proprietary business information.

The publicity person who said that with a straight face deserve some type of award and then the superintendent some type of firing for being a dumbass.


I totally believe that that person was serious.
Having been in meetings with folks from my old university's psychology department about extending the CS department's IT system to evaluate classes and professors at the whole university:
yes, sociology folks really are that protective and paranoid about other people seeing the questionnaire (pardon: "the instrument") they're about to hand out to thousands of students next week.

It think it's because they've written papers and theses about proving that this particular set of questions they came up with will measure X,Y and Z and then they can use "Here's scientific proof that our set of questions are great for X,Y and Z. Can you/the competition say the same?" as a selling point.
Then they hope the potential customer cares more about that scientific stamp of approval and covering his ass than about X, Y and Z being of minor or little interest to him compared to A,B and C.

You know, for situations where the actual outcome is of less interest to the buyer than being able to prove something-is-being-done(TM).
 
2013-05-26 08:22:37 PM  
It's so effective to give this survey, since all of the drug using, alcohol drinking high school students possess the morals to always tell the truth. Maybe you'll catch a cry for help in there somewhere, but more than likely you're just wasting your time and money.
 
2013-05-26 08:25:31 PM  

Kahabut: A school, like any other property is subject to it's own rules, and nothing changes that.


And schools, as government actors, have to comply with the Constitution in setting their rules. It's not like 'any other property' in that respect. Or a lot of other respects. Even disregarding that, school rules aren't supposed to apply to a protest off of school property while school was not in session. But you know, fark those kids.

If you give even a tiny shiat about the 1st Amendment, Morse v Frederick was an abomination.
 
2013-05-26 08:28:06 PM  
As a school psychologist, I understand why the school did the survey.  I looked it up (they gave the publisher name, was pretty easy from there to find the one that fit the description) and it seems like a quick way to catch kids who might be falling under the radar but might need some support.  Given all the content the website says it covers in 34 questions there can't be more than a few about substance abuse.  It's just one symptom of larger issues a teen might be having with depression or anxiety, or just a bad peer group or poor decision making.  I can see how this survey could be useful, in an ideal situation where everyone is honest and the data is used correctly.

Having said that, I don't blame kids for lying on it, and I understand the teacher's actions.  I only work with kids one-on-one, and we have rules about confidentiality, which means there are lines at which we keep things private and lines at which I have to tell their parents.  The discussion of this, and the work I do to build trust, gets the kids to tell me all kinds of things I can't believe they'll admit to an adult.  But on a survey that will go to god-knows-who at the school?  I can't imagine a lot of them would admit their behavior.  Why would they?  If they know their behavior needs to change and they want to talk to an adult about it, they'll talk, not mark it on a survey.  If they don't want it to change, why incriminate themselves?
 
2013-05-26 08:31:22 PM  

phalamir: It is jargon-speak for socialization, which schools are supposed to impart unto students


They do. Look at all the articles about teachers "socializing" with students - seems like there are two or three per week here. American public schools can't even teach kids how to read - why would their instruction in socialization be any better?
 
2013-05-26 08:33:29 PM  

Kahabut: That is pretty idiotic. I mean you. A school, like any other property is subject to it's own rules, and nothing changes that.


When insulting the intelligence of someone else, it is a good idea to form your sentences properly. Otherwise, the effect might not be what you intended.
 
2013-05-26 08:35:54 PM  
This crap has been going on in the public schools since the 1960s.  Corrupt surveys are given to the children with the idea of soliciting bad answers, then the "data" is compiled and used to lobby government for changes in public policy.  They not only anticipate students lying, they count on it, to skew the answers further.

Some of these were so bad that even 5th graders were refusing to take them, because even they could tell that they were designed for evil purposes.  A teacher told me of one sample question to white, suburban, middle class students:

"How often do you use heroin?  a) Once a month, b)  Several times a week, c) Once a week, d) Several times a day, e)  Once a day, f)  Every now and then, g)  Almost never, h)  never."

The correct answer for most students on a 50 question survey was almost always h), except for a few thrown in to bust up the pattern.  It asked about several drugs, alcohol, tobacco, sexual activity, shoplifting, gang membership, etc.
 
2013-05-26 08:39:03 PM  

Kahabut: OgreMagi: fusillade762: OgreMagi: Any Pie Left: In an era where students can have their bags and lockers searched at will, and even be strip-searched, we're  only upset about a bullshiat survey form?

A locker is school property, so I guess there is no expectation of privacy.  But a backpack is personal property and should be protected.  You don't shed your Rights when you enter the school grounds.

Oh but you do. Any activity that can be in some way construed as "interfering with the educational process" can be banned.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 364x273]

Morse v. Frederick

No First Amendment rights for you. Not yours.

I was flabbergasted when the courts ruled against the student.  But they also think a corporation is a person, so I guess I should have expected this.

Corporations are people.
Students aren't.
Got it.

That is pretty idiotic.  I mean you.  A school, like any other property is subject to it's own rules, and nothing changes that.

Ever walked into a court room, federal building of any kind?  You were searched.  Maybe more than once.  Did you cry about your rights?  How about flying?  Still think that is how it works?  Well, that's because your education came from the internet, and the internet as a whole is retarded.


Just because it is happening does not make it right.
 
2013-05-26 08:40:06 PM  

phalamir: Gyrfalcon: phalamir: taurusowner: Gyrfalcon: social-emotional learning standards set by the state.

That phrase alone is one of the biggest reasons why this nation is doomed....and that a little reset might be a great thing. "The state" has grown far too big for anyone's good.

Really?  Because my N Florida rural redneck school in the 70s and 80s did this.  It was called "teaching you manners", and I don't seem to recall parents being up in arms that the school wasn't Thunderdome

But you didn't have to take a test for it. There weren't state standards for it. How the hell do you have "state standards" for "social-emotional" skills, even assuming there are any?

Okay - in more detail: When I was in elementary school, my report card had two parts.  There were the letter grades for my courses.  there was also a section with various social standards listed.  they were stuff like "Knows how to share", and "Speaks at an appropriate volume" and "Plays well with others".  For each, I got a :) or a :| or a :(.The teacher basically decided, upon watching me over the six-week period for the report card, how well I was meeting basic social standards.  They weren't graded, but my parents made sure I understood that Bad Things would happen to me if I didn't shape up.  And I am sure that the kids who did badly in academics, who also had lots of :( s were the ones who got the behavioral classes with the Evil biatch.

They are not doing a standardized test of handshaking protocol, but gross measurements of how students are developing socially and emotionally.  There is a good bit of literature and research on what a third-grader, or an eight-grader, or a HS senior should be like if they are properly socialized; and teachers are trained to realize what a properly socialized student looks like - and what a badly socialized one is like.  Bad socialization often lines up with learning problems and/or home issues.  Being able to apply a standardized rubric to that can help identify prob ...


You can explain why all you want; but the concept of having STANDARDIZED STATE GUIDELINES for APPROPRIATE SOCIAL/EMOTIONAL BEHAVIOR is very bad; and the idea of having a STATEWIDE TEST for it is even worse.

And yes, yes they are doing a standardized test of protocol. They're doing the test every year and comparing the results to previous years. And the intent is to see which kids are having problems and preemptively treat them--not which kids are reaching out for help and then what techniques might or might not work. What if a kid doesn't want help? What if the enforced help turns out to be more of a problem than the kid was in before? There may be a "good bit" of literature on what a "properly socialized" student should look like--but who gets to select that literature and decide what the standard is? The....school district?
 
2013-05-26 08:49:52 PM  

profplump: worlddan: My gut reaction is that the state probably has a legal right to force them to take the survey

Under what authorizing legislation?


They are juveniles so by definition this applies (wiki link).  The reason I made the comment about my gut is because this area is an endless source of litigation in educational law and I do not pretend to know it all. In some situations juveniles have more rights than adults and in other cases less. The school administration is arguing that they have the right to know for the health and safety of the school. My guess is that most judges would look on that explanation favorably and align themselves with the school as the local parent as opposed to the school as agent of the state.
 
2013-05-26 08:51:09 PM  
Meh, it was pounded into me in public schools in the '80s that minors do NOT get Constitutional rights, their parents hold those rights for them and the schools assume custodial control of the kids (including those rights) while the kids are attending said schools. Thus, schoolkids do NOT have the right to free speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of the press, can be searched as the school administration decides is appropriate, and so on, and that if this was not the case then schools simply could not exist because their very nature would violate the rights of kids.

But kids have no rights. That is why in juvenile court it is the parents who plead guilty or not guilty for their children. This is even true when the parents themselves press charges against their kids.
 
2013-05-26 09:06:15 PM  

OgreMagi: Just because it is happening does not make it right.


Well now, that's a whole different argument isn't it?  I mean, we could debate the FACTS all day, but if you want to talk about what is right, well lets do that instead.  I just assumed we were talking about reality.
 
2013-05-26 09:11:58 PM  

cptjeff: Kahabut: A school, like any other property is subject to it's own rules, and nothing changes that.

And schools, as government actors, have to comply with the Constitution in setting their rules. It's not like 'any other property' in that respect. Or a lot of other respects. Even disregarding that, school rules aren't supposed to apply to a protest off of school property while school was not in session. But you know, fark those kids.

If you give even a tiny shiat about the 1st Amendment, Morse v Frederick was an abomination.


You seem to be under some mistaken impression that the 1st gives you a right to enter private property and do as you damn well please.  I don't recall that being the reality of how that law is enforced.

School rules applying off campus during non school hours IS an abomination, but that's not what I was talking about.  My statement is pretty clear about school property.  HOWEVER, I will admit I didn't read up on the case, and I support the assertion that the finding by the court was terrible.

It doesn't change the fact that school buildings are subject to whatever rules the school board wants to make.  That isn't even against the law.
 
Ni
2013-05-26 09:12:22 PM  

Radak: This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.  That being said, any student certainly has the right to call bullshiat on a survey and refuse to answer.


You're right, They can call BS. The 1st amendment guarantees that freedom of expression also applies to compelled speech.

It's just not a bill of rights issue.

How is it anyone can call BS without persecution? Oh yeah, the bill of rights. Now I remember.
 
2013-05-26 09:15:10 PM  
The InBloomdatabase probably needs some sample datapoints to reliably identify groomable kids, before access is given to buyers
 
2013-05-26 09:17:28 PM  

Ni: Radak: This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.  That being said, any student certainly has the right to call bullshiat on a survey and refuse to answer.

You're right, They can call BS. The 1st amendment guarantees that freedom of expression also applies to compelled speech.

It's just not a bill of rights issue.

How is it anyone can call BS without persecution? Oh yeah, the bill of rights. Now I remember.


Wait, so you imagine a high school student saying that "this test/form/survey/thing is bullshiat and I'm not going to participate"... and you imagine the school saying what exactly?  That's fine timmy just go home?

How about an F, is that persecution?  Don't get too excited by that bill of rights, it rarely applies within the walls of a school, and for good reason.  These are children, they can barely dress themselves, and they sure as hell don't have adult judgement.
 
2013-05-26 09:25:45 PM  
upload.wikimedia.org
"Have you ever tried sugar...or PCP?"
 
2013-05-26 09:27:05 PM  

Kahabut: OgreMagi: Just because it is happening does not make it right.

Well now, that's a whole different argument isn't it?  I mean, we could debate the FACTS all day, but if you want to talk about what is right, well lets do that instead.  I just assumed we were talking about reality.


I'm going to have to go on the assumption that you have never actually read the Constitution.
 
2013-05-26 09:30:08 PM  

OgreMagi: Kahabut: OgreMagi: Just because it is happening does not make it right.

Well now, that's a whole different argument isn't it?  I mean, we could debate the FACTS all day, but if you want to talk about what is right, well lets do that instead.  I just assumed we were talking about reality.

I'm going to have to go on the assumption that you have never actually read the Constitution.


I took civics class too kiddo.  The difference is, I live in the real world.  NOT the one written about in the Constitution of the United States.  (over 200 years old and it wasn't taken literally even then)

Do I like that situation? NO.  Is it reality anyway, yes it is.
 
2013-05-26 09:34:28 PM  

Vangor: On any forms I have given my students, I have always assured them of the right to privacy either by explicitly stating any forms with possibly embarrassing data is anonymous or lack of requirement to complete forms with marked data. Neither is a Fifth Amendment rights issue, merely treating people with the respect deserved. You know what has happened? In well over a thousand forms, no one has declined to answer honestly.


How do you know?
 
2013-05-26 09:35:55 PM  

Kahabut: OgreMagi: Kahabut: OgreMagi: Just because it is happening does not make it right.

Well now, that's a whole different argument isn't it?  I mean, we could debate the FACTS all day, but if you want to talk about what is right, well lets do that instead.  I just assumed we were talking about reality.

I'm going to have to go on the assumption that you have never actually read the Constitution.

I took civics class too kiddo.  The difference is, I live in the real world.  NOT the one written about in the Constitution of the United States.  (over 200 years old and it wasn't taken literally even then)

Do I like that situation? NO.  Is it reality anyway, yes it is.


You are the problem.  You read it, and think it's worthless because it was written 200 years ago.  You are the reason we are losing our rights.  You are the reason the politicians and the police think they can do whatever the hell they want.  Fark you.
 
2013-05-26 09:45:27 PM  

OgreMagi: Kahabut: OgreMagi: Kahabut: OgreMagi: Just because it is happening does not make it right.

Well now, that's a whole different argument isn't it?  I mean, we could debate the FACTS all day, but if you want to talk about what is right, well lets do that instead.  I just assumed we were talking about reality.

I'm going to have to go on the assumption that you have never actually read the Constitution.

I took civics class too kiddo.  The difference is, I live in the real world.  NOT the one written about in the Constitution of the United States.  (over 200 years old and it wasn't taken literally even then)

Do I like that situation? NO.  Is it reality anyway, yes it is.

You are the problem.  You read it, and think it's worthless because it was written 200 years ago.  You are the reason we are losing our rights.  You are the reason the politicians and the police think they can do whatever the hell they want.  Fark you.


I'm guessing you're a kid.  Only kids think they know everything, and how it should work and utterly disregard the reality of it.  (alternately, you could be mentally challenged)

The politicians think they can do as they please because ... when was the last time you voted?

Right.

And the police, because when was the last time you served on a citizen review board?

Right.

I've done both this month.  Please shut the fark up until you have the chops to play the game.
 
2013-05-26 09:50:25 PM  

Kahabut: You seem to be under some mistaken impression that the 1st gives you a right to enter private property and do as you damn well please. I don't recall that being the reality of how that law is enforced.


I'm not under that impression, besides which, schools are not private property. And they were not on school grounds. They were on a public sidewalk. School had been released to give students the option of attending the parade, but it was not mandatory.

Kahabut: It doesn't change the fact that school buildings are subject to whatever rules the school board wants to make. That isn't even against the law.


School buildings are subject to rules, yes, but those rules must be in compliance with the US and State Constitutions, because Schools, and School Boards, are public actors, and the property is owned by the government (making it public property). With private property, you are perfectly free to do something like throw anybody wearing an Obama or a Bush tee shirt off your property. A school, as a public actor bound by the 1st amendment, is not allowed to do that. You're free to toss black people or Muslims out (unless your private property is a public accommodation, in which case the Civil Rights Act applies) . A school is not allowed to do that. It is in no way whatsoever private property, nor do the same rules apply.
 
2013-05-26 10:13:59 PM  

Kahabut: OgreMagi: Kahabut: OgreMagi: Kahabut: OgreMagi: Just because it is happening does not make it right.

Well now, that's a whole different argument isn't it?  I mean, we could debate the FACTS all day, but if you want to talk about what is right, well lets do that instead.  I just assumed we were talking about reality.

I'm going to have to go on the assumption that you have never actually read the Constitution.

I took civics class too kiddo.  The difference is, I live in the real world.  NOT the one written about in the Constitution of the United States.  (over 200 years old and it wasn't taken literally even then)

Do I like that situation? NO.  Is it reality anyway, yes it is.

You are the problem.  You read it, and think it's worthless because it was written 200 years ago.  You are the reason we are losing our rights.  You are the reason the politicians and the police think they can do whatever the hell they want.  Fark you.

I'm guessing you're a kid.  Only kids think they know everything, and how it should work and utterly disregard the reality of it.  (alternately, you could be mentally challenged)

The politicians think they can do as they please because ... when was the last time you voted?

Right.

And the police, because when was the last time you served on a citizen review board?

Right.

I've done both this month.  Please shut the fark up until you have the chops to play the game.


I always vote.  Unfortunately, the same crooks keep getting re-elected.  Probably because of people like you because "they are tough on crime."

They don't have a citizen's review board in my town.  In Los Angeles, where I am original from, the review board has been subverted by the police and the union, so it is effectively useless.
 
2013-05-26 10:21:49 PM  
Every high school should have a social studies teacher like him.
 
2013-05-26 10:30:24 PM  

OgreMagi: My stepdaughter fit that description perfectly.  She was one of the worse liars that I ever had the displeasure of listening to.  It wasn't just the completely unbelievable BS that came out of her mouth, she also had a certain tone of voice that she used whenever she was lying and ONLY when she was lying.  I believe the thinking is, "if I act very serious he'll believe me."  Now I understand what my dad meant by "don't use that tone with me!"

After being a parent to her, I called my dad up and asked him why he let me live and apologized for the crap I put him through.


Children are grandparents' revenge.
 
2013-05-26 10:30:41 PM  
If I had that survey when I was in school I would have filled it out to make it look like I was chugging vodka and snorting coke off hookers every night, why do they think they'd get anything useful from this?
 
2013-05-26 10:37:36 PM  
Radak: Fifth amendment?  I'm gonna go with no.
"...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."
This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.  That being said, any student certainly has the right to call bullshiat on a survey and refuse to answer.  It's just not a bill of rights issue.


Wrong answer, but thanks for playing. Do send us a post card from prison when you're convicted based on the confession you made before you were arrested.

You always have constitutional rights, they don't just kick in when you get arrested. The fifth amendment is the reason you never have to talk to the police, regardless of whether you're under arrest or not.

Any kid that answers "yes" to any of the "have you used drugs or alcohol" just handed the government (in the form of the school) a written confession to breaking the law. The cops could arrest them and then it's a little late to take the 5th.
 
2013-05-26 10:43:41 PM  
Sooo, if I say I smoke weed, am I automatically not social...like I Bogart or something? That's just wrong...smh...
 
2013-05-26 11:24:51 PM  

Kahabut: And the police, because when was the last time you served on a citizen review board?


The vast majority of citizen review boards are a dog and pony show.  Typically, only cases the DA's office or the City choose will be brought to them.  They have no power to compel a review.  Also, they usually do not have investigation powers.  The only evidence presented is by the police department and/or the DA's office.  In other words, the people being investigated can choose if they want to be investigated and get to decide what evidence is presented.   Most review boards meetings are not open to the public, so there is no transparency.  Finally, they are usually only advisory.  The police department is free to ignore them if they wish.

A proper citizen's review board would include the following:

1. The board can choose any case.  The city, police, and DA's office have no say.
2. The board retains an investigation arm that answers only to the board.
3. Meetings are public.
4. The decision by the board is binding.
5. Members are chosen by lottery from the list of volunteers*.  The police, city, and DA's office do not appoint (which is currently the norm).

* Volunteers must meet the same criteria required to vote in local elections
 
2013-05-26 11:47:27 PM  
...and stories like THIS are why teachers need unions...
 
2013-05-26 11:55:23 PM  
There is no constitution in this country anymore. You think otherwise you are a fool.
 
2013-05-27 12:15:55 AM  

Indolent: phalamir: Indolent: FTFA: "The survey is part of measuring how students meet the social-emotional learning standards set by the state."

Social-emotional learning standards?  WTF is that about?

Do you act like a normal person of your age-group. "Social" meaning you can interact with others in an appropriate manner, and "emotional" that your emotional responses are appropriate to situations.  If, upon meeting a person for the first time, you scream in homicidal rage and start fling your own feces at them, yelling "I will gut you with my bare hands and then use your stomach as a cum-receptacle", you have not met the social-emotional learning standards (not even of pre-K {unless your pre-K is run by Tartars}).

It is jargon-speak for socialization, which schools are supposed to impart unto students

Yeah I know and that's fine.  WTF is the state doing setting a standard for that?


Brainwashing kids to be mindless drones. What did you think they were doing? Educating?
 
2013-05-27 12:49:30 AM  
All I can say is The Hunger Games.

School Administrators are The Capitol.
 
2013-05-27 12:59:26 AM  

OgreMagi: I always vote.  Unfortunately, the same crooks keep getting re-elected.  Probably because of people like you because "they are tough on crime."

They don't have a citizen's review board in my town.  In Los Angeles, where I am original from, the review board has been subverted by the police and the union, so it is effectively useless.


So wait, the democratic process is working as advertised.  You just don't represent the majority.  Which is exactly what I said in the other thread.

Eh.  Screw you kiddo.  Tyranny of the masses.
 
2013-05-27 01:06:24 AM  

Kahabut: OgreMagi: I always vote.  Unfortunately, the same crooks keep getting re-elected.  Probably because of people like you because "they are tough on crime."

They don't have a citizen's review board in my town.  In Los Angeles, where I am original from, the review board has been subverted by the police and the union, so it is effectively useless.

So wait, the democratic process is working as advertised.  You just don't represent the majority.  Which is exactly what I said in the other thread.

Eh.  Screw you kiddo.  Tyranny of the masses.


This isn't a democracy.  I thought you said you took a civics class.  If you had, you would know this.
 
Ehh
2013-05-27 01:06:41 AM  

dj_bigbird: social-emotional learning standards

What the fark does that even mean in English?


The greeks don't want no freaks.
 
2013-05-27 01:07:34 AM  
This shiat extends beyond school into the workplace.   Our office once circulated "anonymous feedback" questionnaires among the staff.  We walked in to find the papers on our desks with the instruction: "Nobody has to identify themselves, we'd like you to be truthful with your constructive comments".


Then we notice each form has a unique number printed oh so tiny on the back, almost microprinting, in faint pencil.  The bastiges were going to track each suggestion/feedback/comment to its source. Everybody was tipped off and the forms all came back with an identical, completely neutral statement on each one.  No more surveys.
 
2013-05-27 01:11:34 AM  

OgreMagi: Kahabut: OgreMagi: I always vote.  Unfortunately, the same crooks keep getting re-elected.  Probably because of people like you because "they are tough on crime."

They don't have a citizen's review board in my town.  In Los Angeles, where I am original from, the review board has been subverted by the police and the union, so it is effectively useless.

So wait, the democratic process is working as advertised.  You just don't represent the majority.  Which is exactly what I said in the other thread.

Eh.  Screw you kiddo.  Tyranny of the masses.

This isn't a democracy.  I thought you said you took a civics class.  If you had, you would know this.


First, I never said this was a democracy.

Second, you vote, other people vote, someone counts, the winner is the one with the most votes.... what do you call that?
 
2013-05-27 01:14:30 AM  

Kahabut: OgreMagi: Kahabut: OgreMagi: I always vote.  Unfortunately, the same crooks keep getting re-elected.  Probably because of people like you because "they are tough on crime."

They don't have a citizen's review board in my town.  In Los Angeles, where I am original from, the review board has been subverted by the police and the union, so it is effectively useless.

So wait, the democratic process is working as advertised.  You just don't represent the majority.  Which is exactly what I said in the other thread.

Eh.  Screw you kiddo.  Tyranny of the masses.

This isn't a democracy.  I thought you said you took a civics class.  If you had, you would know this.

First, I never said this was a democracy.

Second, you vote, other people vote, someone counts, the winner is the one with the most votes.... what do you call that?


Representative democracy, aka, a republic.
 
2013-05-27 01:16:11 AM  

OgreMagi: Kahabut: OgreMagi: Kahabut: OgreMagi: I always vote.  Unfortunately, the same crooks keep getting re-elected.  Probably because of people like you because "they are tough on crime."

They don't have a citizen's review board in my town.  In Los Angeles, where I am original from, the review board has been subverted by the police and the union, so it is effectively useless.

So wait, the democratic process is working as advertised.  You just don't represent the majority.  Which is exactly what I said in the other thread.

Eh.  Screw you kiddo.  Tyranny of the masses.

This isn't a democracy.  I thought you said you took a civics class.  If you had, you would know this.

First, I never said this was a democracy.

Second, you vote, other people vote, someone counts, the winner is the one with the most votes.... what do you call that?

Representative democracy, aka, a republic.


So, is that hair split well enough for you?
 
2013-05-27 01:19:17 AM  

Kahabut: OgreMagi: Kahabut: OgreMagi: Kahabut: OgreMagi: I always vote.  Unfortunately, the same crooks keep getting re-elected.  Probably because of people like you because "they are tough on crime."

They don't have a citizen's review board in my town.  In Los Angeles, where I am original from, the review board has been subverted by the police and the union, so it is effectively useless.

So wait, the democratic process is working as advertised.  You just don't represent the majority.  Which is exactly what I said in the other thread.

Eh.  Screw you kiddo.  Tyranny of the masses.

This isn't a democracy.  I thought you said you took a civics class.  If you had, you would know this.

First, I never said this was a democracy.

Second, you vote, other people vote, someone counts, the winner is the one with the most votes.... what do you call that?

Representative democracy, aka, a republic.

So, is that hair split well enough for you?


I'm not splitting hairs.  A pure democracy would be the worse possible system.  It would be rule by "American Idol Vote".
 
2013-05-27 01:25:01 AM  

OgreMagi: Kahabut: OgreMagi: Kahabut: OgreMagi: Kahabut: OgreMagi: I always vote.  Unfortunately, the same crooks keep getting re-elected.  Probably because of people like you because "they are tough on crime."

They don't have a citizen's review board in my town.  In Los Angeles, where I am original from, the review board has been subverted by the police and the union, so it is effectively useless.

So wait, the democratic process is working as advertised.  You just don't represent the majority.  Which is exactly what I said in the other thread.

Eh.  Screw you kiddo.  Tyranny of the masses.

This isn't a democracy.  I thought you said you took a civics class.  If you had, you would know this.

First, I never said this was a democracy.

Second, you vote, other people vote, someone counts, the winner is the one with the most votes.... what do you call that?

Representative democracy, aka, a republic.

So, is that hair split well enough for you?

I'm not splitting hairs.  A pure democracy would be the worse possible system.  It would be rule by "American Idol Vote".


Isn't that what you accused me of just up thread?
 
2013-05-27 01:58:16 AM  

MyToeHurts: I junderstand teachers and school officials concern about the childrens wefare. But it seems they should have known better than to think it would be OK to collect potentially damaging info without making sure the kids and parents were made fully aware.


But they did. They sent a letter home saying that participation was optional with an opt-out letter to be returned to the school.

The problem here was really that they didn't do good job of letting teachers know what was coming down the pipe.

The money they spent on this survey would have been better spent just letting the kids know it's ok to talk to counselors about your problems.
 
2013-05-27 02:10:28 AM  

dj_bigbird: social-emotional learning standards

What the fark does that even mean in English?


It means "Goodthink" - check your Newspeak Dictionary.
 
2013-05-27 02:26:46 AM  

OgreMagi: I'm not splitting hairs.  A pure democracy would be the worse possible system.  It would be rule by "American Idol Vote".


Sanjaya for president!!!
 
2013-05-27 04:29:59 AM  

Kahabut: OgreMagi: fusillade762: OgreMagi: Any Pie Left: In an era where students can have their bags and lockers searched at will, and even be strip-searched, we're  only upset about a bullshiat survey form?

A locker is school property, so I guess there is no expectation of privacy.  But a backpack is personal property and should be protected.  You don't shed your Rights when you enter the school grounds.

Oh but you do. Any activity that can be in some way construed as "interfering with the educational process" can be banned.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 364x273]

Morse v. Frederick

No First Amendment rights for you. Not yours.

I was flabbergasted when the courts ruled against the student.  But they also think a corporation is a person, so I guess I should have expected this.

Corporations are people.
Students aren't.
Got it.

That is pretty idiotic.  I mean you.  A school, like any other property is subject to it's own rules, and nothing changes that.

Ever walked into a court room, federal building of any kind?  You were searched.  Maybe more than once.  Did you cry about your rights?  How about flying?  Still think that is how it works?  Well, that's because your education came from the internet, and the internet as a whole is retarded.


Right. If the students don't want to abide by the school's policy, they can just go elsewhere!
 
2013-05-27 05:13:27 AM  

Phins: Wrong answer, but thanks for playing. Do send us a post card from prison when you're convicted based on the confession you made before you were arrested.


Given that I don't live anywhere close to the US, this doesn't really apply anyway.  That's also the reason I wasn't aware of the broader application of the text in the amendment.  I have studied the US constitution somewhat, but obviously not the extent to which later Supreme Court decisions have interpreted this particular aspect of it.

Any kid that answers "yes" to any of the "have you used drugs or alcohol" just handed the government (in the form of the school) a written confession to breaking the law. The cops could arrest them and then it's a little late to take the 5th.

Is this true?  Does the US have use laws rather than just possession laws?  I understand that if one is caught actually under the influence, there may be some laws there, and certainly if one is caught with a bag of crack in his pocket, there's a law there.  But has a person actually broken a law by saying, "I had a bag of crack in my pocket two weeks ago"?
 
2013-05-27 06:29:47 AM  

Radak: But has a person actually broken a law by saying, "I had a bag of crack in my pocket two weeks ago"?


No. However, they have confessed to breaking the law two weeks ago.
 
2013-05-27 07:03:22 AM  

untaken_name: Radak: But has a person actually broken a law by saying, "I had a bag of crack in my pocket two weeks ago"?

No. However, they have confessed to breaking the law two weeks ago.


Er, I misspoke.  I should have written has a person broken a law by saying, "I smoked crack two weeks ago", getting back to my question as to whether or not consumption laws exist.
 
2013-05-27 07:24:25 AM  

Radak: untaken_name: Radak: But has a person actually broken a law by saying, "I had a bag of crack in my pocket two weeks ago"?

No. However, they have confessed to breaking the law two weeks ago.

Er, I misspoke.  I should have written has a person broken a law by saying, "I smoked crack two weeks ago", getting back to my question as to whether or not consumption laws exist.


How would you smoke crack you weren't in possession of? There's no need for consumption laws because it's impossible to consume drugs without possessing them.
 
2013-05-27 12:52:46 PM  

ClavellBCMI: If Clarence Thomas had his way, none of those students would have any Constitutional rights until they hit their 18th birthday.


FTFY
 
2013-05-27 12:53:11 PM  

OgreMagi: Kahabut: OgreMagi: Kahabut: OgreMagi: I always vote.  Unfortunately, the same crooks keep getting re-elected.  Probably because of people like you because "they are tough on crime."

They don't have a citizen's review board in my town.  In Los Angeles, where I am original from, the review board has been subverted by the police and the union, so it is effectively useless.

So wait, the democratic process is working as advertised.  You just don't represent the majority.  Which is exactly what I said in the other thread.

Eh.  Screw you kiddo.  Tyranny of the masses.

This isn't a democracy.  I thought you said you took a civics class.  If you had, you would know this.

First, I never said this was a democracy.

Second, you vote, other people vote, someone counts, the winner is the one with the most votes.... what do you call that?

Representative democracy, aka, a republic.


Actually, representative democracy != republic.  A pure democracy can still be a republic.
 
2013-05-27 12:53:13 PM  

untaken_name: Radak: untaken_name: Radak: But has a person actually broken a law by saying, "I had a bag of crack in my pocket two weeks ago"?

No. However, they have confessed to breaking the law two weeks ago.

Er, I misspoke.  I should have written has a person broken a law by saying, "I smoked crack two weeks ago", getting back to my question as to whether or not consumption laws exist.

How would you smoke crack you weren't in possession of? There's no need for consumption laws because it's impossible to consume drugs without possessing them.

I went to a lot of concerts in the 70's and 80's and can say without any reservation that you can get high without ever possessing any drug. Even today, at outdoor venues, the smoke can be thick enough to get someone high who doesn't normally partake. OZfest a few years back comes to mind. I felt like a dirty old man looking at 16 y/o topless girls with their boobs painted.
 
2013-05-27 01:12:53 PM  

phalamir: Yet. Considering that authorities can lie to you to get evidence, the only smart move is to answer anything even remotely incriminating with "I plead the Fifth". "This is not a criminal proceeding" is to be countered with "(1) And you are able to prove that negative with 100% certainty how?, and (2) I plan to keep it that way."


No, much simpler: "Then am I free to go?"  If the answer is no, then you are in effect under arrest.
 
2013-05-27 01:12:54 PM  
School district officials declined to provide a copy of the survey to the Daily Herald, saying the district bought the survey from a private company, Multi-Health Systems Inc., and the contents are proprietary business information.

In your public school? How about fark you? Full disclosure.
 
2013-05-27 02:01:05 PM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Right. If the students don't want to abide by the school's policy, they can just go elsewhere!


That more or less solidifies my point pretty well.  Thanks.
 
2013-05-27 07:52:33 PM  
at least they didn't make him drink hemlock
 
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