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(Daily Herald)   Reminding the students you teach that they are also protected by the 5th amendment? That's a suspendin'   (dailyherald.com) divider line 156
    More: Asinine, Batavia, chief academic officer, John Dryden, current affairs  
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15639 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 May 2013 at 4:41 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-26 05:38:49 PM  
In an era where students can have their bags and lockers searched at will, and even be strip-searched, we're  only upset about a bullshiat survey form?
 
2013-05-26 05:39:01 PM  

Radak: Fifth amendment?  I'm gonna go with no.

"...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.  That being said, any student certainly has the right to call bullshiat on a survey and refuse to answer.  It's just not a bill of rights issue.


The Supreme Court ruled that you can refuse to answer a question at any time if it could be used against you.  There does not need to be a criminal case involved.

Sorry, I don't remember the citation, but it was a major case.
 
2013-05-26 05:39:07 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: Ah, I see the problem:

The results were to be reviewed by school officials, including social workers, counselors and psychologists. The survey was not a diagnostic tool, but a "screener" to figure out which students might need specific help, Newkirk said.

This wasn't one of those national "state of our children" surveys they do; this was this one particular place being incredibly intrusive. "For the children's sake." Uh huh.


This fact cuts both ways. Many states have work product shield laws that prevent the work product of mental health professionals from being used in a court of law. The limitations here very greatly state by state. But depending on the laws of that state it may be that any information taken from the survey could not be used against the student in effect, for legal purposes, immunizing the student. And it is well settled that if one is immunized from prosecution for one's testimony then the 5A doesn't apply.
 
2013-05-26 05:40:24 PM  
The students should have lied on the form.  Write (in the margins?)  that they get hard drugs from the school board members.
 
2013-05-26 05:42:44 PM  

Any Pie Left: In an era where students can have their bags and lockers searched at will, and even be strip-searched, we're  only upset about a bullshiat survey form?


A locker is school property, so I guess there is no expectation of privacy.  But a backpack is personal property and should be protected.  You don't shed your Rights when you enter the school grounds.
 
2013-05-26 05:43:39 PM  
It's time to start tarring and feathering public school administrators
 
2013-05-26 05:45:39 PM  

Indolent: phalamir: Indolent: FTFA: "The survey is part of measuring how students meet the social-emotional learning standards set by the state."

Social-emotional learning standards?  WTF is that about?

Do you act like a normal person of your age-group. "Social" meaning you can interact with others in an appropriate manner, and "emotional" that your emotional responses are appropriate to situations.  If, upon meeting a person for the first time, you scream in homicidal rage and start fling your own feces at them, yelling "I will gut you with my bare hands and then use your stomach as a cum-receptacle", you have not met the social-emotional learning standards (not even of pre-K {unless your pre-K is run by Tartars}).

It is jargon-speak for socialization, which schools are supposed to impart unto students

Yeah I know and that's fine.  WTF is the state doing setting a standard for that?


Umm, because if they are "supposed to impart unto students", they need to have a standard upon which to impart unto students.  Otherwise, you have Mrs. Smith, who thinks the Victorian were dangerously libertine anarchists, and Ms. Sparkle Dewshine, who thinks communes are fascist temples to The Man, confusing the hell out of students.  You do realize that the standard probably reads "Third grade students shall generally sit through a class period without undue fidgeting and whispering, and understand they need to raise their hands to receive permission to go to the bathroom before bolting for the door.  Proper use of "Please", "Thank you", and "you are welcome" should be used by students in the appropriate contexts", right?

I seriously had this stuff on my report cards in elementary school.  It filled a good two pages of the thing, and told my parents in rather specific detail exactly how socialized I was pretending to be.  And the general hubbub is about how schools don't teach students manners these days - are you really biatching that they are trying to do that?
 
2013-05-26 05:47:19 PM  
You have to know that such a questionnaire will follow that person throughout their life, and WILL be an instrument to some form of judgement against you in the future.

EVERYONE IS GUILTY OF SOMETHING.
 
2013-05-26 05:48:34 PM  
We did these surveys in school. We didn't have our names on it. And if it did I wouldn't of done it.
This is a good teacher, looking out for the kids. Give him his job back
 
2013-05-26 05:49:25 PM  
You can compare this to the pre-ban of PED in MLB.  They collected info and have leaked all the findings and names of the people that violated the new list of banned substances even though it didn't apply to them. It still damages their reputation, and probably put them on a watch list to be tested more.  I like teachers that actually help students understand about the relevance of self incrimination in contemporary society.

Kids, always keep your mouth shut about drugs and alcohol, you can and will be labeled as such, and even if you don't have a problem, people will assume you do.  If you have a problem, keep your mouth shut and and ask for help from someone you can trust...  maybe a teacher like this dude.
 
2013-05-26 05:50:34 PM  
On any forms I have given my students, I have always assured them of the right to privacy either by explicitly stating any forms with possibly embarrassing data is anonymous or lack of requirement to complete forms with marked data. Neither is a Fifth Amendment rights issue, merely treating people with the respect deserved. You know what has happened? In well over a thousand forms, no one has declined to answer honestly.
 
2013-05-26 05:53:08 PM  

worlddan: But depending on the laws of that state it may be that any information taken from the survey could not be used against the student in effect, for legal purposes, immunizing the student.


Maybe. But without some pretty iron-clad case law, I wouldn't want to volunteer to test that 'immunity'. And even then, I wouldn't want to have to spend time and money getting it dismissed.
 
2013-05-26 05:54:09 PM  

phalamir: taurusowner: Gyrfalcon: social-emotional learning standards set by the state.

That phrase alone is one of the biggest reasons why this nation is doomed....and that a little reset might be a great thing. "The state" has grown far too big for anyone's good.

Really?  Because my N Florida rural redneck school in the 70s and 80s did this.  It was called "teaching you manners", and I don't seem to recall parents being up in arms that the school wasn't Thunderdome


But you didn't have to take a test for it. There weren't state standards for it. How the hell do you have "state standards" for "social-emotional" skills, even assuming there are any?
 
2013-05-26 05:59:12 PM  
No pics of The Dude, fark I am dissapoint
 
2013-05-26 05:59:57 PM  
Is this about that Nick Nolte movie?
 
2013-05-26 06:02:54 PM  

jaytkay: Area teacher abides
[www.dailyherald.com image 170x247]


Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, uh, your opinion, man.
 
2013-05-26 06:07:19 PM  

phalamir: And the general hubbub is about how schools don't teach students manners these days - are you really biatching that they are trying to do that?


What this person said.

Gyrfalcon: But you didn't have to take a test for it. There weren't state standards for it. How the hell do you have "state standards" for "social-emotional" skills, even assuming there are any?


Not something I would trust the state with.
 
2013-05-26 06:16:34 PM  
What's the point?  If you answer, "fif" for a question, I'm going to assume the answer is Yes.  That's your way of saying, "Yes, I did smoke pot, but I'm not saying I smoked pot, so you can't claim I said I smoked pot.  But we both know I did."

If you're that worried about it, just answer NO!  This isn't a grand jury.  You're not before congress.  It's a damn high school survey.
 
2013-05-26 06:16:54 PM  

Radak: Fifth amendment?  I'm gonna go with no.

"...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.  That being said, any student certainly has the right to call bullshiat on a survey and refuse to answer.  It's just not a bill of rights issue.


Under the standard interpretation of the right, the ability to refrain from being a witness includes future and  potential criminal cases.  If you don't know whether you are a suspect in a current or future investigation you may exercise your right to deny self-incriminating testimony on the assumption that you are (or will be).  This holds especially true regarding incriminating admissions to government officials like cops, judges, and teachers.

This interpretation of the right has held up repeatedly for around 200 years now and was most explicitly formalized in the Miranda decision (which outright states that you can remain silent on arrest whether there's a formal charge filed or not, among other things), if you want to create some new interpretation you're going to have to get more than one case up to the supreme court.  Until then, you are simply incorrect under US law.  The teacher has it right.

//There are exceptions for non-state actors, but schools, especially public schools, are in fact state actors under government purview.
 
nm
2013-05-26 06:17:17 PM  

Radak: Fifth amendment?  I'm gonna go with no.

"...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.  That being said, any student certainly has the right to call bullshiat on a survey and refuse to answer.  It's just not a bill of rights issue.


You have a fairly screwed up and incorrect understanding of the 5th amendments.

You have the absolute right to refuse to answer any question and make a statement that could be used to incriminate you.  This right does not attach at trial or even when a criminal investigation begins.  It is not limited to the current investigation.
Answers to this survey could absolutely be used against you, for example:
- Start an investigation
- If the kid's locker is searched, and they find MJ and he claims he's never consumed MJ, this culd be used against him.
- Based on this survey he would likely be forced to cooperate with counseling or something.  He might suffer academic consequences or even criminal conseques.
That is a few examples
/Criminal defense attorney
//When in doubt STFU and demand a lawyer
///When not in doubt, really STFU and demand a lawyer because they're probably playing you with the Reid technique.
 
2013-05-26 06:19:53 PM  
We had an anonymous survey like this in 9th grade. I was actually a very buttoned-up person and didn't drink/do drugs/do anything really, but I answered it very jokingly. I wish I could remember my exact answers because they were funny, but when it asked if you drank, I would write things like how difficult it was to find a good wine, and that I enjoyed a nice campari cocktail on the veranda, etc.
 
2013-05-26 06:20:46 PM  

Gyrfalcon: phalamir: taurusowner: Gyrfalcon: social-emotional learning standards set by the state.

That phrase alone is one of the biggest reasons why this nation is doomed....and that a little reset might be a great thing. "The state" has grown far too big for anyone's good.

Really?  Because my N Florida rural redneck school in the 70s and 80s did this.  It was called "teaching you manners", and I don't seem to recall parents being up in arms that the school wasn't Thunderdome

But you didn't have to take a test for it. There weren't state standards for it. How the hell do you have "state standards" for "social-emotional" skills, even assuming there are any?


Okay - in more detail: When I was in elementary school, my report card had two parts.  There were the letter grades for my courses.  there was also a section with various social standards listed.  they were stuff like "Knows how to share", and "Speaks at an appropriate volume" and "Plays well with others".  For each, I got a :) or a :| or a :(.The teacher basically decided, upon watching me over the six-week period for the report card, how well I was meeting basic social standards.  They weren't graded, but my parents made sure I understood that Bad Things would happen to me if I didn't shape up.  And I am sure that the kids who did badly in academics, who also had lots of :( s were the ones who got the behavioral classes with the Evil biatch.

They are not doing a standardized test of handshaking protocol, but gross measurements of how students are developing socially and emotionally.  There is a good bit of literature and research on what a third-grader, or an eight-grader, or a HS senior should be like if they are properly socialized; and teachers are trained to realize what a properly socialized student looks like - and what a badly socialized one is like.  Bad socialization often lines up with learning problems and/or home issues.  Being able to apply a standardized rubric to that can help identify problems, preferably before the police get involved.  It also moves it from "my gut says so" to "I saw this happen, which is out of the ordinary"; once might be just a kid with a bad day, but a pattern says you need to check on the problem, so you set the standard, apply it, measure it, and look for long-term or massively egregious deviations from the norm.
 
2013-05-26 06:23:27 PM  

OgreMagi: Any Pie Left: In an era where students can have their bags and lockers searched at will, and even be strip-searched, we're  only upset about a bullshiat survey form?

A locker is school property, so I guess there is no expectation of privacy.  But a backpack is personal property and should be protected.  You don't shed your Rights when you enter the school grounds.


Oh but you do. Any activity that can be in some way construed as "interfering with the educational process" can be banned.

upload.wikimedia.org

Morse v. Frederick

No First Amendment rights for you. Not yours.
 
2013-05-26 06:26:50 PM  

Vangor: On any forms I have given my students, I have always assured them of the right to privacy either by explicitly stating any forms with possibly embarrassing data is anonymous or lack of requirement to complete forms with marked data. Neither is a Fifth Amendment rights issue, merely treating people with the respect deserved. You know what has happened? In well over a thousand forms, no one has declined to answer honestly.


Everyone answered honestly? And you know this because they told you?
 
2013-05-26 06:29:49 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-05-26 06:31:59 PM  
Bertalmio was outraged. The 2002 graduate, who took one class with Dryden, credits him with teaching him how to examine positions and make logical arguments, no matter where one stands politically.
"Back it up - give me evidence," is what Dryden taught, Bertalmio said.


3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-05-26 06:32:49 PM  
But John Dryden said he's not the point. He wants people to focus on the issue he raised: Whether school officials considered that students could incriminate themselves with their answers to the survey that included questions about drug and alcohol use.

/Hmm..the school wanting the kids to give up evidence that could get them suspended or expelled. Without advising them of their rights. I would tell them to jam their survey up their asses. fark their survey. I would fill it out, saying i use every drug on the planet, drink to excess every night, and touch myself while i peep into the girls shower room, when im not getting blown by the MILF nurse that works in the office. And also i would say i'm banging the principles wife and daughter..at the same time, in his bed.

/put that in your survey jackasses.
 
2013-05-26 06:33:11 PM  
Those surveys are bollocks anyway. Whenever I had to take one in school I always wrote down the most far fetched and ridiculous answers.
 
2013-05-26 06:38:42 PM  

fusillade762: OgreMagi: Any Pie Left: In an era where students can have their bags and lockers searched at will, and even be strip-searched, we're  only upset about a bullshiat survey form?

A locker is school property, so I guess there is no expectation of privacy.  But a backpack is personal property and should be protected.  You don't shed your Rights when you enter the school grounds.

Oh but you do. Any activity that can be in some way construed as "interfering with the educational process" can be banned.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 364x273]

Morse v. Frederick

No First Amendment rights for you. Not yours.


Yeah, that one made me stabby. Scalia (or Thomas, or Kennedy, or Alito, or Roberts) needs to hurry up and farking die in these next 3 or so years. Utterly farking ridiculous.
 
2013-05-26 06:39:03 PM  

DerAppie: Vangor: On any forms I have given my students, I have always assured them of the right to privacy either by explicitly stating any forms with possibly embarrassing data is anonymous or lack of requirement to complete forms with marked data. Neither is a Fifth Amendment rights issue, merely treating people with the respect deserved. You know what has happened? In well over a thousand forms, no one has declined to answer honestly.

Everyone answered honestly? And you know this because they told you?


Probably because students have the guile and subtly of mentally-retarded budgies, but all think they are Machiavellian satirists.  Spotting bullshiat is rather easy.  So easy, in fact, that I often want to smack them for how badly they lie - I feel insulted that they don't show me the respect to offer up a lie that at least would possibly fool a third-grader.  I deal with college kids, but do you realize how many still trot out "Granny died" when exams come up?  And the moral outrage if I suggest proof (though I rarely do anymore, since any yahoo with a color printer can pop out one of those funeral home souvenir novelty Psalm 23 cards)? Sometimes I get "Uncle Bob died", but Granny is the go-to gal, and if all these kids are telling the truth, I have the amazing ability to plan exams and paper due dates on the future death dates of many, many grandmothers - I am the Bane of Blue Hairs.

/I have serious toyed with announcing on the first day of a new semester that the students need to tell their grandmothers to be especially careful around the exam dates, as their lives are in mortal peril at those times.
//My boss told me this was (a) tacky, and (b) unprofessional
 
2013-05-26 06:42:42 PM  
"We can't help punish them if we aren't aware of their needs crimes," Barshinger said.
 
2013-05-26 06:43:54 PM  
I hope that the kid who ratted him out gets daily swirlies. I think the whole school board should get daily swirlies too, but you know, you can't have everything.

/swirlies for all!
 
2013-05-26 06:46:46 PM  
There was an "anonymous" survey at my high school about student drug use. For a lark I checked ALL the boxes.... Over a decade afterwards there was a blood drive at work. I hadn't been able to donate blood because of a couple of tattoos during my 20s, and was looking forward giving. They ran my ID and said I couldn't donate. I asked why and they said they couldn't tell me but if I filled out a form I'd receive the reason in the mail. Filled out the form and two months later received a letter saying I was in their database as an intravenous drug user....
 
2013-05-26 06:52:52 PM  

Radak: Fifth amendment?  I'm gonna go with no.

"...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.  That being said, any student certainly has the right to call bullshiat on a survey and refuse to answer.  It's just not a bill of rights issue.


The what right is the student exercising?
 
2013-05-26 06:56:48 PM  

worlddan: My gut reaction is that the state probably has a legal right to force them to take the survey but has no legal basis for forcing them to fill it out honestly.


My gut says the survey should be anonymous if responses are mandatory.
 
2013-05-26 07:10:50 PM  

phalamir: DerAppie: Everyone answered honestly? And you know this because they told you?

Probably because students have the guile and subtly of mentally-retarded budgies, but all think they are Machiavellian satirists.


I'm sure there is some sort of bias going on there. Almost as if you only caught the people who were really bad at it and have no sense of creativity at all. Gramps died? Who actually thinks that works during exam time or around dead lines? That only works if the goal was to get the teacher suspicious.
 
2013-05-26 07:18:11 PM  

fusillade762: OgreMagi: Any Pie Left: In an era where students can have their bags and lockers searched at will, and even be strip-searched, we're  only upset about a bullshiat survey form?

A locker is school property, so I guess there is no expectation of privacy.  But a backpack is personal property and should be protected.  You don't shed your Rights when you enter the school grounds.

Oh but you do. Any activity that can be in some way construed as "interfering with the educational process" can be banned.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 364x273]

Morse v. Frederick

No First Amendment rights for you. Not yours.


I was flabbergasted when the courts ruled against the student.  But they also think a corporation is a person, so I guess I should have expected this.

Corporations are people.
Students aren't.
Got it.
 
2013-05-26 07:25:58 PM  

phalamir: Probably because students have the guile and subtly of mentally-retarded budgies, but all think they are Machiavellian satirists. Spotting bullshiat is rather easy. So easy, in fact, that I often want to smack them for how badly they lie - I feel insulted that they don't show me the respect to offer up a lie that at least would possibly fool a third-grader.


My stepdaughter fit that description perfectly.  She was one of the worse liars that I ever had the displeasure of listening to.  It wasn't just the completely unbelievable BS that came out of her mouth, she also had a certain tone of voice that she used whenever she was lying and ONLY when she was lying.  I believe the thinking is, "if I act very serious he'll believe me."  Now I understand what my dad meant by "don't use that tone with me!"

After being a parent to her, I called my dad up and asked him why he let me live and apologized for the crap I put him through.
 
2013-05-26 07:27:07 PM  

jehovahs witness protection: I'm new at this whole trolling thing.


Just because you have amateur skills doesn't mean you're a beginner.
 
2013-05-26 07:27:20 PM  
We are from the Government. We are doing this for your own good and for your protection. We only want to help. You have nothing to fear.


i.imgur.comi.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
 
2013-05-26 07:38:38 PM  

worlddan: My gut reaction is that the state probably has a legal right to force them to take the survey


Under what authorizing legislation? You're required to fill out the your census form and tax return only because there's a specific law that says so -- what law gives school administrators the right to compel participation in health screenings (absent an eminent threat to public health)?
 
2013-05-26 07:41:00 PM  

fusillade762: OgreMagi: Any Pie Left: In an era where students can have their bags and lockers searched at will, and even be strip-searched, we're  only upset about a bullshiat survey form?

A locker is school property, so I guess there is no expectation of privacy.  But a backpack is personal property and should be protected.  You don't shed your Rights when you enter the school grounds.

Oh but you do. Any activity that can be in some way construed as "interfering with the educational process" can be banned.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 364x273]

Morse v. Frederick

No First Amendment rights for you. Not yours.


There was also Tinker v. Des Moines, which stated that the 1st Amendment right of free speech does not trump the need to maintain school discipline.
 
2013-05-26 07:42:08 PM  

DerAppie: Vangor: On any forms I have given my students, I have always assured them of the right to privacy either by explicitly stating any forms with possibly embarrassing data is anonymous or lack of requirement to complete forms with marked data. Neither is a Fifth Amendment rights issue, merely treating people with the respect deserved. You know what has happened? In well over a thousand forms, no one has declined to answer honestly.

Everyone answered honestly? And you know this because they told you?


Because I know the difference between expected answers and honest answers on my instruments. Expected answers are center but positive, whereas honest answers tend positive but are all over.
 
2013-05-26 07:53:49 PM  
I'm mystified as to why the school administration wants to beat him down for reinforcing a lesson he'd just taught them with a real life example. Of course, I'm also mystified as to why the school would use a printed survey to ask some very personal questions. "We're interested, but not really interested enough to actually talk to you."
 
2013-05-26 07:55:07 PM  
Long-haired, liberal hippie educrat is 100% correct.
 
2013-05-26 08:04:29 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: Radak: Fifth amendment?  I'm gonna go with no.

"...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself..."

This is not a criminal case.  Fifth amendment right does not apply.  That being said, any student certainly has the right to call bullshiat on a survey and refuse to answer.  It's just not a bill of rights issue.

Sounds like a second amendment solution is needed, to me.

Click-click


I'd assert my 3rd Amendment rights.

"I'm pleading the 3rd."
"You mean the 5th?"
"Nope, the 3rd."
"The 3rd Amendment has absolutely nothing to do with this survey!"
"Exactly.  And this survey has absolutely nothing to do with education."
 
2013-05-26 08:10:43 PM  

Vangor: DerAppie: Vangor: On any forms I have given my students, I have always assured them of the right to privacy either by explicitly stating any forms with possibly embarrassing data is anonymous or lack of requirement to complete forms with marked data. Neither is a Fifth Amendment rights issue, merely treating people with the respect deserved. You know what has happened? In well over a thousand forms, no one has declined to answer honestly.

Everyone answered honestly? And you know this because they told you?

Because I know the difference between expected answers and honest answers on my instruments. Expected answers are center but positive, whereas honest answers tend positive but are all over.


So you are saying that they were speaking the truth because statistics told you so. I had a course in that as well and there is no way that you can claim that they were honest. Just that your scoring method minimised the influence of socially acceptable answering patterns.

Were they honest? As a group, maybe. As individuals? No way to tell if someone answering that (s)he never smoked pot is actually speaking the truth.
 
2013-05-26 08:20:56 PM  

OgreMagi: fusillade762: OgreMagi: Any Pie Left: In an era where students can have their bags and lockers searched at will, and even be strip-searched, we're  only upset about a bullshiat survey form?

A locker is school property, so I guess there is no expectation of privacy.  But a backpack is personal property and should be protected.  You don't shed your Rights when you enter the school grounds.

Oh but you do. Any activity that can be in some way construed as "interfering with the educational process" can be banned.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 364x273]

Morse v. Frederick

No First Amendment rights for you. Not yours.

I was flabbergasted when the courts ruled against the student.  But they also think a corporation is a person, so I guess I should have expected this.

Corporations are people.
Students aren't.
Got it.


That is pretty idiotic.  I mean you.  A school, like any other property is subject to it's own rules, and nothing changes that.

Ever walked into a court room, federal building of any kind?  You were searched.  Maybe more than once.  Did you cry about your rights?  How about flying?  Still think that is how it works?  Well, that's because your education came from the internet, and the internet as a whole is retarded.
 
2013-05-26 08:21:06 PM  
worlddan
School district officials declined to provide a copy of the survey to the Daily Herald, saying the district bought the survey from a private company, Multi-Health Systems Inc., and the contents are proprietary business information.

The publicity person who said that with a straight face deserve some type of award and then the superintendent some type of firing for being a dumbass.


I totally believe that that person was serious.
Having been in meetings with folks from my old university's psychology department about extending the CS department's IT system to evaluate classes and professors at the whole university:
yes, sociology folks really are that protective and paranoid about other people seeing the questionnaire (pardon: "the instrument") they're about to hand out to thousands of students next week.

It think it's because they've written papers and theses about proving that this particular set of questions they came up with will measure X,Y and Z and then they can use "Here's scientific proof that our set of questions are great for X,Y and Z. Can you/the competition say the same?" as a selling point.
Then they hope the potential customer cares more about that scientific stamp of approval and covering his ass than about X, Y and Z being of minor or little interest to him compared to A,B and C.

You know, for situations where the actual outcome is of less interest to the buyer than being able to prove something-is-being-done(TM).
 
2013-05-26 08:22:37 PM  
It's so effective to give this survey, since all of the drug using, alcohol drinking high school students possess the morals to always tell the truth. Maybe you'll catch a cry for help in there somewhere, but more than likely you're just wasting your time and money.
 
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