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(JSOnline)   Farmer charged with selling (can't say it - court order) is found not guilty of selling (can't say it - court order)   (jsonline.com) divider line 230
    More: Followup, Loganville, farmers, rights movement, selling, Vernon Hershberger  
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17316 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 May 2013 at 3:07 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-26 02:05:06 PM
Folks, you can chance raw milk if you really want to feel different or ultra-organic.
But really - there's a very good reason pasteurization was a breakthrough: people dying or getting ridiculously sick from illnesses caused by, wait for it - raw milk.  The FDA didn't ban its sale to piss off the hippies - it banned it in the interest of public health.
 
2013-05-26 02:07:19 PM
We as a people have really pushed to undo all of the health advances of the 20th century.  Darwin approves, we have too many people in the world.
 
2013-05-26 03:06:03 PM

Somaticasual: Folks, you can chance raw milk if you really want to feel different or ultra-organic.
But really - there's a very good reason pasteurization was a breakthrough: people dying or getting ridiculously sick from illnesses caused by, wait for it - raw milk.  The FDA didn't ban its sale to piss off the hippies - it banned it in the interest of public health.


Really glad this was the Weeners
 
2013-05-26 03:10:45 PM

basemetal: We as a people have really pushed to undo all of the health advances of the 20th century.  Darwin approves, we have too many people in the world.


That's the real conspiracy.

Lower the world population by spreading FUD about food, vaccines, and sanitation.
 
2013-05-26 03:11:10 PM

Metalupis: Somaticasual: Folks, you can chance raw milk if you really want to feel different or ultra-organic.
But really - there's a very good reason pasteurization was a breakthrough: people dying or getting ridiculously sick from illnesses caused by, wait for it - raw milk.  The FDA didn't ban its sale to piss off the hippies - it banned it in the interest of public health.

Really glad this was the Weeners


It could be in the weeners all day 'erry day, for all the good it does in the real world. When it comes to food, "If I've never gotten sick off of it, it's 100% awesome and good and stop taking away muh freedoms". Or at least that's the response I get from my fellow Wisconsinites.
 
2013-05-26 03:12:54 PM
worldfamouspeople.weebly.com

Frowns upon these shenanigans.
 
2013-05-26 03:13:56 PM

Somaticasual: Folks, you can chance raw milk if you really want to feel different or ultra-organic.
But really - there's a very good reason pasteurization was a breakthrough: people dying or getting ridiculously sick from illnesses caused by, wait for it - raw milk.  The FDA didn't ban its sale to piss off the hippies - it banned it in the interest of public health.


I can't believe people are stupid enough to not know this.  I mean, its like boiling contaminated water.  This is basic.
 
2013-05-26 03:15:06 PM

basemetal: We as a people have really pushed to undo all of the health advances of the 20th century.  Darwin approves, we have too many people in the world.


And these people get to vote the same as you.
 
2013-05-26 03:17:33 PM
But many people believe that unprocessed milk, straight from the farm, contains bacteria that boost the immune system and have other beneficial properties.

Who gives a shiat what people "believe"?
 
2013-05-26 03:17:45 PM
Pasteurizing milk contaminates it with phlogiston and messes with your midichlorians unless you sleep under a pyramid.

/hey, we're doing this over the ether-net so why not?
 
2013-05-26 03:17:52 PM

Somaticasual: Folks, you can chance raw milk if you really want to feel different or ultra-organic.
But really - there's a very good reason pasteurization was a breakthrough: people dying or getting ridiculously sick from illnesses caused by, wait for it - raw milk.  The FDA didn't ban its sale to piss off the hippies - it banned it in the interest of public health.


But but...   FOOD FREEEEEDOOOOOOMMMMNNNNN!
 
2013-05-26 03:20:33 PM
If you've never had raw milk before you're missing out. The stuff tastes delicious and will make normal store bought milk seem undrinkable after  a few weeks.
 
2013-05-26 03:20:59 PM
Voldemilk?
 
2013-05-26 03:21:14 PM
Done in one, nothing more to see here, last one out turn off the lights
 
2013-05-26 03:21:29 PM
As a raw milk advocate, I'm getting a kick...

...does anyone have some Pepto?
 
2013-05-26 03:21:56 PM
I could see Canada clamping down on raw milk or other fairly unsafe food products since the government pays a significant portion of the populations medical expenses. In the states why wouldn't a waiver stating that the consumer assumes the risks related to the product be more than enough? Some hippy wants dirty milk? Sure, but they assume the risks and waive their right to sue for the foreseeable health problems associated with the product. Let the insurance companies decide if they cover sickness caused by negligence. Hospitals will make cash from the sick hippies and employers can fire sick milk drinkers for missing work .
 
2013-05-26 03:22:28 PM

SN1987a goes boom: Somaticasual: Folks, you can chance raw milk if you really want to feel different or ultra-organic.
But really - there's a very good reason pasteurization was a breakthrough: people dying or getting ridiculously sick from illnesses caused by, wait for it - raw milk.  The FDA didn't ban its sale to piss off the hippies - it banned it in the interest of public health.

I can't believe people are stupid enough to not know this.  I mean, its like boiling contaminated water.  This is basic.


That's "Natural Water", you fascist.
 
2013-05-26 03:22:56 PM
Feel free to drink it, broseph(ine)s, provided you and I don't share any insurance pools and that you have no contact with civilization.
 
2013-05-26 03:23:06 PM
What I'd like is is some irradiated non-homogenized milk. Kill to bacteria without heat and as otherwise unprocessed as possible.
 
2013-05-26 03:24:11 PM
Alternatively we can get around to accepting the fact that we're the only species who utilizes the milk of a mammal that isn't our own and that it's not natural, and just stop drinking EITHER.

That works too.
 
2013-05-26 03:25:08 PM
Wow. Phone-like typing detected.
 
2013-05-26 03:26:33 PM
Agreed, I miss the ice cold 4.25% butterfat milk straight from the bulk tank as a kid, stuff would probably gag me now tho.
 
2013-05-26 03:27:05 PM

rdu_voyager: What I'd like is is some irradiated non-homogenized milk. Kill to bacteria without heat and as otherwise unprocessed as possible.


Low-temperature vat pasteurization is the term you'd want to look for. It actually tastes very similar to raw milk but is harder to find.
 
2013-05-26 03:27:33 PM

Carth: If you've never had raw milk before you're missing out. The stuff tastes delicious and will make normal store bought milk seem undrinkable after  a few weeks.


I would agree, but with this disclaimer--only if you already drink whole milk (as opposed to 1%, 2%, or skim). Those who drink the latter most likely won't enjoy raw.

Don't like raw milk? Don't drink it. Couldn't be easier.
 
2013-05-26 03:28:47 PM

awalkingecho: Alternatively we can get around to accepting the fact that we're the only species who utilizes the milk of a mammal that isn't our own and that it's not natural, and just stop drinking EITHER.

That works too.


We're also the only species to drive cars and that's not natural so let's stop. Oh and forget the internet. No other animal has that so let's just shut it down.
 
2013-05-26 03:29:06 PM

Somaticasual: Folks, you can chance raw milk if you really want to feel different or ultra-organic.
But really - there's a very good reason pasteurization was a breakthrough: people dying or getting ridiculously sick from illnesses caused by, wait for it - raw milk.  The FDA didn't ban its sale to piss off the hippies - it banned it in the interest of public health.


I can understand that, raw milk is less safe than pasterized.

I can also understand the appeal of raw milk and the desire to eat food that is as unprocessed/pure/unfarked-with as possible.  (I don't quite go for raw milk, but organic unhomogenized milk from grass-fed cows is close enough for me, and perfectly legal)

Maybe this is a place where the leftist hippies and the right-wing randroids can agree for once, let the free market handle it.  If people want to drink it, knowing fully understanding the risks, then let them.  Just make sure that the farmers are immune from liability from that risk.
 
2013-05-26 03:29:26 PM

Somaticasual: chance raw milk if you really want to feel different or ultra-organic.


Raw milk is pointless and pretty stupid to seek out, but in a country where buying cigarettes is legal I have qualms about making it illegal. Put suitably large and dire warnings on it, charge taxes similar to tobacco 'sin taxes' to pay for the added burden of illnesses on society, and I would probably be OK with it existing.

(I do like organic milk - organic isn't always worth it, but in this case fewer antibiotics and hormones appeals to me.)
 
2013-05-26 03:30:03 PM
I go a whole different route on this one.

Milk is gross and I don't drink it.  Seriously...why on earthy would you want to drink another animals milk?

Total hypocrite disclaimer: I love cheese....
 
2013-05-26 03:30:38 PM

Somaticasual: Folks, you can chance raw milk if you really want to feel different or ultra-organic.
But really - there's a very good reason pasteurization was a breakthrough: people dying or getting ridiculously sick from illnesses caused by, wait for it - raw milk.  The FDA didn't ban its sale to piss off the hippies - it banned it in the interest of public health.


The most vocal defenders of the practice are the libertarian derpers.  http://reason.com/archives/2013/05/26/raw-milk-trial-ends-in-partial- v ictory-f

/"gee i can't believe your article smells terrif... ic... ying"
 
2013-05-26 03:30:59 PM

Tarl3k: Done in one, nothing more to see here, last one out turn off the lights


If it's all for the public health, why isn't tobacco and alcohol banned? I'm fairly sure those 2 kill more people than raw milk.
 
2013-05-26 03:31:03 PM

John Buck 41: Don't like raw milk? Don't drink it. Couldn't be easier.


If it would only be about people poisoning themselves, I wouldn't really care. But what's to stop an unscrupulous milk producer from mixing in a little raw milk to save the pasteurization costs? Or someone who sells a dairy-based item from a roadside stand forgetting to mention that they used raw milk.

Unless we can trust everyone in the product chain - and let's be honest, we know we can't - you have to stop it at the suppliers to keep things safe.
 
2013-05-26 03:31:28 PM

underwhere: awalkingecho: Alternatively we can get around to accepting the fact that we're the only species who utilizes the milk of a mammal that isn't our own and that it's not natural, and just stop drinking EITHER.

That works too.

We're also the only species to drive cars and that's not natural so let's stop. Oh and forget the internet. No other animal has that so let's just shut it down.


I'm not sure either of those things require enzymes most of our bodies weren't equipped for. When was the last time you met someone who was intolerant of those natures?
 
2013-05-26 03:33:39 PM

Captain Dan: But many people believe that unprocessed milk, straight from the farm, contains bacteria that boost the immune system and have other beneficial properties.

Who gives a shiat what people "believe"?


DON'T INSULT MAH R'LIJIN!

"Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation" Peter 1:2

Who are you to defy Jeebus?

/sosh'list bureaucrats
//gay agenda
///OBAMA!
 
2013-05-26 03:34:43 PM

Silverstaff: Somaticasual: Folks, you can chance raw milk if you really want to feel different or ultra-organic.
But really - there's a very good reason pasteurization was a breakthrough: people dying or getting ridiculously sick from illnesses caused by, wait for it - raw milk.  The FDA didn't ban its sale to piss off the hippies - it banned it in the interest of public health.

I can understand that, raw milk is less safe than pasterized.

I can also understand the appeal of raw milk and the desire to eat food that is as unprocessed/pure/unfarked-with as possible.  (I don't quite go for raw milk, but organic unhomogenized milk from grass-fed cows is close enough for me, and perfectly legal)

Maybe this is a place where the leftist hippies and the right-wing randroids can agree for once, let the free market handle it.  If people want to drink it, knowing fully understanding the risks, then let them.  Just make sure that the farmers are immune from liability from that risk.


The risks really aren't as great as some people claim. Around 200 people got sick from raw milk/cheese in 2002 (last year i could find data for) most at risk are kids and immunocompromised. When you consider 48 million people in the US every year have some foodborne illness it seems foolish so many states regulate raw cheese/milk
 
2013-05-26 03:34:48 PM

Carth: If you've never had raw milk before you're missing out. The stuff tastes delicious and will make normal store bought milk seem undrinkable after  a few weeks.


I have had raw milk in my wild and crazy days. It tasted similar to pasture fed milk I had from the same state. Certainly better than factory farm mass production stuff, but I have never been able to taste any difference from pasteurized product *that comes from equivalently treated and fed cows*. I've found that diet and stress are the big taste impacts, not proper pasteurization.
 
2013-05-26 03:35:22 PM

John Buck 41: Tarl3k: Done in one, nothing more to see here, last one out turn off the lights

If it's all for the public health, why isn't tobacco and alcohol banned? I'm fairly sure those 2 kill more people than raw milk.


Don't forget cheese burgers cooked under medium well.
 
2013-05-26 03:35:27 PM
thefleer.com
 
2013-05-26 03:35:30 PM
i guessed non-Monsanto soy or corn
 
2013-05-26 03:35:45 PM

awalkingecho: Alternatively we can get around to accepting the fact that we're the only species who utilizes the milk of a mammal that isn't our own and that it's not natural, and just stop drinking EITHER.

That works too.


We're the only species that does a lot of things. Should we stop using toothpaste and automobiles, too? It's so unnatural!
 
2013-05-26 03:35:53 PM

SumoJeb: In the states why wouldn't a waiver stating that the consumer assumes the risks related to the product be more than enough? Some hippy wants dirty milk? Sure, but they assume the risks and waive their right to sue for the foreseeable health problems associated with the product.


Imagine a scenario where a head-of-household consumes raw milk, gets sick and then dies.  Add to that scenario a wife, several young children and little-to-no medical or life insurance.  So the wife is left with unpaid medical bills and an insufficient amount of income.  Guess who now qualifies for food stamps and welfare that the rest of Wisconsin gets to pay for?  Or you can waive their right for public assistance since dad was an idiot.  So now you have a family on the street with all of the social ills that go along with it.

We're no longer in an age where Darwin gets to throw chlorine into the gene pool of the entire family.  So it is in the interest of society that you don't completely screw the pooch by being a retard, thereby screwing things up for the rest of us.
 
2013-05-26 03:35:55 PM

Sharksfan: Milk is gross and I don't drink it.  Seriously...why on earthy would you want to drink another animals milk?


Yeah, why drink their milk. Our species makes milk. While we're at, let's stop eating their meat. Our species makes meat.
 
2013-05-26 03:36:49 PM

Surpheon: but in a country where buying cigarettes is legal I have qualms about making it illegal


Cigarettes aren't part of our food supply. One of the goals of the FDA is to ensure that  everything sold as food is safe to eat. Note: not  healthy. The FDA does not guarantee the healthfulness of our food supply, only its safety. This means putting policies and procedures in place which prevent food-borne illness. Pasteurization is a simple process which has a big impact on food-borne illness.

Now, aged raw milk cheese- that's where it's at. The cultures use to make it into cheese basically kill off the same cultures as pasteurization.
 
2013-05-26 03:36:55 PM

ImpendingCynic: John Buck 41: Don't like raw milk? Don't drink it. Couldn't be easier.

If it would only be about people poisoning themselves, I wouldn't really care. But what's to stop an unscrupulous milk producer from mixing in a little raw milk to save the pasteurization costs?


Good point, but I don't think large dairies would take that risk.

Or someone who sells a dairy-based item from a roadside stand forgetting to mention that they used raw milk.

AFAIK that's already against the law. So apparently you want to ban raw milk, period.


Good point, but I don't think large dairies would take that risk.
 
2013-05-26 03:38:19 PM

ImpendingCynic: John Buck 41: Don't like raw milk? Don't drink it. Couldn't be easier.

If it would only be about people poisoning themselves, I wouldn't really care. But what's to stop an unscrupulous milk producer from mixing in a little raw milk to save the pasteurization costs? Or someone who sells a dairy-based item from a roadside stand forgetting to mention that they used raw milk.

Unless we can trust everyone in the product chain - and let's be honest, we know we can't - you have to stop it at the suppliers to keep things safe.


Raw milk sells for a very significant price premium it would be very stupid to "mix it in" with already pasteurized milk. Also since it has a very limited shelf life you'd notice pretty quick if you got it instead of factory milk.
 
2013-05-26 03:38:20 PM

Carth: Around 200 people got sick from raw milk/cheese in 2002


Raw numbers are meaningless without context. Raw milk is not sold in the same volumes as processed milk.
 
2013-05-26 03:38:44 PM

John Buck 41: Tarl3k: Done in one, nothing more to see here, last one out turn off the lights

If it's all for the public health, why isn't aren't tobacco and alcohol banned? I'm fairly sure those 2 kill more people than raw milk.


They tried that with alcohol. Didn't work too well.
 
2013-05-26 03:39:54 PM

Mentalpatient87: We're the only species that does a lot of things. Should we stop using toothpaste and automobiles, too? It's so unnatural!


Neither of those things are ingested. Toothpaste in most of its commercial forms is a grey area, as little is swallowed, though I'd still just as soon a natural alternative.

There's a big difference between luxuries and advancements we've made from intelligence and the use of tools, and sucking on the teat of something that most people in the world have an intolerance to in some degree or another.
 
2013-05-26 03:40:01 PM

Surpheon: Somaticasual: chance raw milk if you really want to feel different or ultra-organic.

Raw milk is pointless and pretty stupid to seek out, but in a country where buying cigarettes is legal I have qualms about making it illegal. Put suitably large and dire warnings on it, charge taxes similar to tobacco 'sin taxes' to pay for the added burden of illnesses on society, and I would probably be OK with it existing.

(I do like organic milk - organic isn't always worth it, but in this case fewer antibiotics and hormones appeals to me.)


My Grandfather ran a family farm, beef, pork and anything they decided was necessary. He however usually bought low temperature vat-pasteurized whole milk from the dairy farmer down the road. Organic? I doubt it but no hormones and nothing other than what was needed for the well being of the cows. Damn good stuff, never tasted any milk near as good until moving to France and buying the same thing from a co-op in the Alps.
 
2013-05-26 03:40:20 PM

SumoJeb: I could see Canada clamping down on raw milk or other fairly unsafe food products since the government pays a significant portion of the populations medical expenses. In the states why wouldn't a waiver stating that the consumer assumes the risks related to the product be more than enough? Some hippy wants dirty milk? Sure, but they assume the risks and waive their right to sue for the foreseeable health problems associated with the product. Let the insurance companies decide if they cover sickness caused by negligence. Hospitals will make cash from the sick hippies and employers can fire sick milk drinkers for missing work .


Whoa. WHOA. Then you'd have to make seatbelts optional too and food sanitation laws for all restaurants out the window.
 
2013-05-26 03:40:27 PM

Dinjiin: SumoJeb: In the states why wouldn't a waiver stating that the consumer assumes the risks related to the product be more than enough? Some hippy wants dirty milk? Sure, but they assume the risks and waive their right to sue for the foreseeable health problems associated with the product.

Imagine a scenario where a head-of-household consumes raw milk, gets sick and then dies.  Add to that scenario a wife, several young children and little-to-no medical or life insurance.  So the wife is left with unpaid medical bills and an insufficient amount of income.  Guess who now qualifies for food stamps and welfare that the rest of Wisconsin gets to pay for?  Or you can waive their right for public assistance since dad was an idiot.  So now you have a family on the street with all of the social ills that go along with it.

We're no longer in an age where Darwin gets to throw chlorine into the gene pool of the entire family.  So it is in the interest of society that you don't completely screw the pooch by being a retard, thereby screwing things up for the rest of us.


Imagine a scenario where the head of household gets drunk and dies, smokes cigarettes an dies, eats a raw hamburger and dies, eats undercooked poultry and dies, eats too much fast food and dies...

Do you really want to ban everything that is unhealthy and may lead to increased medical costs? Why do you choose raw milk, something very few people actually get sick from an almost no healthy adult dies, to draw the line?
 
2013-05-26 03:43:26 PM
Grew up drinking raw milk, eating fresh eggs and canning most of our veggies from the garden... Still kickin after 42 years.
 
2013-05-26 03:43:31 PM

awalkingecho: I'm not sure either of those things require enzymes most of our bodies weren't equipped for.


As one of the third of humanity who evolved to properly digest cows milk throughout my life, it would be insulting mother nature to ignore such a clear and explicit evolutionary dietary dictate. The rapidity with which the lactese mutation has spread makes nature's verdict on humans drinking milk unequivocal: just do it.
 
2013-05-26 03:43:47 PM

awalkingecho: underwhere: awalkingecho: Alternatively we can get around to accepting the fact that we're the only species who utilizes the milk of a mammal that isn't our own and that it's not natural, and just stop drinking EITHER.

That works too.

We're also the only species to drive cars and that's not natural so let's stop. Oh and forget the internet. No other animal has that so let's just shut it down.

I'm not sure either of those things require enzymes most of our bodies weren't equipped for. When was the last time you met someone who was intolerant of those natures?


Never been car sick, eh?
 
2013-05-26 03:43:50 PM

awalkingecho: and sucking on the teat


Uhh, I don't know about you, dude, but I get my milk in a jug. You know that doesn't help your argument, right? And I'm gonna need to see a citation for

awalkingecho: most people in the world have an intolerance to in some degree or another.


that.
 
2013-05-26 03:43:55 PM

t3knomanser: Carth: Around 200 people got sick from raw milk/cheese in 2002

Raw numbers are meaningless without context. Raw milk is not sold in the same volumes as processed milk.


It is legal in 28 states and just about all of Europe. 9.7 million people in the US regularly drink raw milk (if that helps put the 200 in context for you) .

Considering the level of illness in France, where raw milk and cheese are so common and you can actually but it from vending machines, is incredibly low I don't see why the US would be very different.
 
2013-05-26 03:44:32 PM

Surpheon: he rapidity with which the lactese mutation has spread makes nature's verdict on humans drinking milk unequivocal: just do it.


I'm not sure if you understand genetics, but if you HAVE the intolerance, drinking it doesn't make it magically go away. So no. Don't 'just do it.'
 
2013-05-26 03:45:23 PM

Dinjiin: SumoJeb: In the states why wouldn't a waiver stating that the consumer assumes the risks related to the product be more than enough? Some hippy wants dirty milk? Sure, but they assume the risks and waive their right to sue for the foreseeable health problems associated with the product.

Imagine a scenario where a head-of-household consumes raw milk, gets sick doesn't look both ways crossing the road, gets hit by a car, and then dies.  Add to that scenario a wife, several young children and little-to-no medical or life insurance.  So the wife is left with unpaid medical bills and an insufficient amount of income.  Guess who now qualifies for food stamps and welfare that the rest of Wisconsin gets to pay for?  Or you can waive their right for public assistance since dad was an idiot.  So now you have a family on the street with all of the social ills that go along with it.


BAN PEDESTRIANS!

See how easy this is?
 
2013-05-26 03:45:58 PM
Not available for comment...

www.eqca.org
 
2013-05-26 03:46:37 PM
cdn.twentytwowords.com
 
2013-05-26 03:46:54 PM
I severly headshake at the raw milk bufoonery; given that, I still beleive that the guy deserves a fair trial. I don't sit well with the idea that a judge can ban him from raising any sort of defense.
 
2013-05-26 03:47:10 PM

Carth: Why do you choose raw milk, something very few people actually get sick from an almost no healthy adult dies, to draw the line?


Probably because the 'slippery slope' argument only really appeals to simpletons who can't understand how those with critical thinking skills are quite capable of evaluating risk/reward in grey areas and defining limits.
 
2013-05-26 03:47:41 PM

Mentalpatient87: awalkingecho: and sucking on the teat

Uhh, I don't know about you, dude, but I get my milk in a jug. You know that doesn't help your argument, right? And I'm gonna need to see a citation for

awalkingecho: most people in the world have an intolerance to in some degree or another.

that.


Re: teat, that's entirely irrelevant. Putting it in a plastic container doesn't magically change its chemical make up such to a point that it's magically "HUMAN APPROVED." It came from the same place, so that doesn't help YOUR argument at all.

In terms of that citation,:

Adult-type hypolactasia is characterized by a fall of lactase activity levels to 5 to 10% of birth levels occurring during childhood and adolescence. The condition affects more than 75% of the population worldwide, with regional frequencies ranging from nearly 5% in northern Europe to more than 90% in some Asian and African countries

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0100-879X200 70 01100004&lng=en&nrm=iso&tlng=en
 
2013-05-26 03:48:26 PM

Carth: Dinjiin: SumoJeb: In the states why wouldn't a waiver stating that the consumer assumes the risks related to the product be more than enough? Some hippy wants dirty milk? Sure, but they assume the risks and waive their right to sue for the foreseeable health problems associated with the product.

Imagine a scenario where a head-of-household consumes raw milk, gets sick and then dies.  Add to that scenario a wife, several young children and little-to-no medical or life insurance.  So the wife is left with unpaid medical bills and an insufficient amount of income.  Guess who now qualifies for food stamps and welfare that the rest of Wisconsin gets to pay for?  Or you can waive their right for public assistance since dad was an idiot.  So now you have a family on the street with all of the social ills that go along with it.

We're no longer in an age where Darwin gets to throw chlorine into the gene pool of the entire family.  So it is in the interest of society that you don't completely screw the pooch by being a retard, thereby screwing things up for the rest of us.

Imagine a scenario where the head of household gets drunk and dies, smokes cigarettes an dies, eats a raw hamburger and dies, eats undercooked poultry and dies, eats too much fast food and dies...

Do you really want to ban everything that is unhealthy and may lead to increased medical costs? Why do you choose raw milk, something very few people actually get sick from an almost no healthy adult dies, to draw the line?


Probably goes w/o saying I have favorited you.
 
2013-05-26 03:48:43 PM

Carth: It is legal in 28 states and just about all of Europe. 9.7 million people in the US regularly drink raw milk (if that helps put the 200 in context for you) .


Not really. We have to go by volume measures, here. What's the disease rate per gallon?

Carth: the level of illness in France...

 is incredibly low

Is it?
 
2013-05-26 03:49:12 PM

awalkingecho: Surpheon: he rapidity with which the lactese mutation has spread makes nature's verdict on humans drinking milk unequivocal: just do it.

I'm not sure if you understand genetics, but if you HAVE the intolerance, drinking it doesn't make it magically go away. So no. Don't 'just do it.'


"As one of the third of humanity who evolved to properly digest cows milk throughout my life, it would be insulting mother nature to ignore such a clear and explicit evolutionary dietary dictate. The rapidity with which the lactese mutation has spread makes nature's verdict on humans drinking milk unequivocal: just do it."

I'm not sure if you understand English, but...
 
2013-05-26 03:49:43 PM

awalkingecho: Alternatively we can get around to accepting the fact that we're the only species who utilizes the milk of a mammal that isn't our own and that it's not natural, and just stop drinking EITHER.

That works too.


Hint: Humans are a part of nature, and hence by definition anything we do is natural.
And your basic point is erroneous as well. There are wild animals who have been caught drinking milk from the teats of domesticated animals like goats and dairy cows. The only reason why no other animals do this is because they don't have the intelligence to systematically keep other animals lactating past the weaning of their young. We adapt the world to suit our needs, from domesticating other animals and plants to reshaping the landscape. And we do so because we are naturally evolved to do so.nHumans can't digest milk on their own, yet many of us have gut bacteria specifically evolved to help us digest it. That by itself shows that it is indeed natural. We have co-evolved with other species to be able to drink it. Why do you hate our natural intestinal flora and fauna? Why do you hate what we naturally have become and try to make us into something that we are not?
 
2013-05-26 03:50:41 PM
I don't understand the headline.
 
2013-05-26 03:50:51 PM

Carth: t3knomanser: Carth: Around 200 people got sick from raw milk/cheese in 2002

Raw numbers are meaningless without context. Raw milk is not sold in the same volumes as processed milk.

It is legal in 28 states and just about all of Europe. 9.7 million people in the US regularly drink raw milk (if that helps put the 200 in context for you) .

Considering the level of illness in France, where raw milk and cheese are so common and you can actually but it from vending machines, is incredibly low I don't see why the US would be very different.


Just to let you know, from someone that lives in France, you won't find raw milk to drink. While legal it is specifically reserved for making cheese.
/au lait cru
//good, good, cheese
 
2013-05-26 03:51:58 PM

awalkingecho: Re: teat, that's entirely irrelevant.


So we can agree that bringing up the delivery method of the milk is just emotional bullshiat thrown in that doesn't relate to the argument, good.

BolloxReader: And your basic point is erroneous as well. There are wild animals who have been caught drinking milk from the teats of domesticated animals like goats and dairy cows. The only reason why no other animals do this is because they don't have the intelligence to systematically keep other animals lactating past the weaning of their young. We adapt the world to suit our needs, from domesticating other animals and plants to reshaping the landscape. And we do so because we are naturally evolved to do so.nHumans can't digest milk on their own, yet many of us have gut bacteria specifically evolved to help us digest it. That by itself shows that it is indeed natural. We have co-evolved with other species to be able to drink it. Why do you hate our natural intestinal flora and fauna? Why do you hate what we naturally have become and try to make us into something that we are not?


And what he said.
 
2013-05-26 03:52:38 PM

Sim Tree: I severly headshake at the raw milk bufoonery; given that, I still beleive that the guy deserves a fair trial. I don't sit well with the idea that a judge can ban him from raising any sort of defense.


I think for a crime of this magnitude, a severe headshake alone won't do it.  You'll need at least a finger waggle and a harrumph.
 
2013-05-26 03:54:48 PM
But many people believe that unprocessed milk, straight from the farm, contains bacteria that boost the immune system and have other beneficial properties.

This really sounds like a problem that's going to take care of itself.
 
2013-05-26 03:55:17 PM

TenJed_77: Carth: t3knomanser: Carth: Around 200 people got sick from raw milk/cheese in 2002

Raw numbers are meaningless without context. Raw milk is not sold in the same volumes as processed milk.

It is legal in 28 states and just about all of Europe. 9.7 million people in the US regularly drink raw milk (if that helps put the 200 in context for you) .

Considering the level of illness in France, where raw milk and cheese are so common and you can actually but it from vending machines, is incredibly low I don't see why the US would be very different.

Just to let you know, from someone that lives in France, you won't find raw milk to drink. While legal it is specifically reserved for making cheese.
/au lait cru
//good, good, cheese


I was in Reignier-Esery last week and bought some for 1€  a liter... What part of the country are you in? It was really easy to get in Paris and Nice too.
 
2013-05-26 03:55:48 PM

Xcott: But many people believe that unprocessed milk, straight from the farm, contains bacteria that boost the immune system and have other beneficial properties.

This really sounds like a problem that's going to take care of itself.


Until they get sick with shiat the rest of us have no immunity to.
 
2013-05-26 03:56:32 PM
this is america! contracting food-borne illnesses isn't a privilege it is a right!

www.jimbo.info
 
2013-05-26 03:56:47 PM

awalkingecho: Surpheon: he rapidity with which the lactese mutation has spread makes nature's verdict on humans drinking milk unequivocal: just do it.

I'm not sure if you understand genetics, but if you HAVE the intolerance, drinking it doesn't make it magically go away. So no. Don't 'just do it.'


Good thing he never said that then.
 
2013-05-26 03:57:07 PM
The only logical solution to this problem is to have a milk woman in every kitchen whose sole purpose is to expose her teats and provide fresh milk
 
2013-05-26 04:03:32 PM

thisiszombocom: The only logical solution to this problem is to have a milk woman in every kitchen whose sole purpose is to expose her teats and provide fresh milk


Dibs on Scarlett Johansson
 
2013-05-26 04:04:39 PM

Carth: too.


C'est ne pas du lait "cru" que vous avez acheter, sauf si le bouteille avait un bouchon jaune. Ce que est très rare en dehors les régions du production.
Il doit être consumer en moins de 3 jours, pour l'info ca fait 17 ans que je habite ici. Est ca se trouve vraiment pas partout, est pour le plupart c'est ne jamais du lait cru.
 
2013-05-26 04:05:28 PM
Raw milk needs to be illegal because you can't trust morons not to feed it to their kids.

We need to outlaw Jesus for the same reason.
 
2013-05-26 04:06:26 PM

jalora: Raw milk needs to be illegal because you can't trust morons not to feed it to their kids.


I was just going to say "What's wrong with letting stupid people kill themselves?" but you have a point.
 
2013-05-26 04:06:44 PM
www.marlerblog.com
 
2013-05-26 04:08:19 PM

thisiszombocom: The only logical solution to this problem is to have a milk woman in every kitchen whose sole purpose is to expose her teats and provide fresh milk


Are any of the "Sports by Brooke" gals interested in donating?

/yeah, you know who I mean
 
2013-05-26 04:08:38 PM

BolloxReader: There are wild animals who have been caught drinking milk from the teats of domesticated animals like goats and dairy cows. The only reason why no other animals do this is because they don't have the intelligence to systematically keep other animals lactating past the weaning of their young.


The proper evolutionary development for a mammal is to develop lactose intolerance as it ages. This is part of the weaning process. If there were no weaning process you'd have some pretty screwed up herds of animals with each sibling continuing to suckle through adulthood, and its siblings suckling it.
 
2013-05-26 04:10:39 PM

MelGoesOnTour: thisiszombocom: The only logical solution to this problem is to have a milk woman in every kitchen whose sole purpose is to expose her teats and provide fresh milk

Are any of the "Sports by Brooke" gals interested in donating?

/yeah, you know who I mean


Oops, misspelled "Brooks". Whatever. Take your pick:

http://www.sportsbybrooks.com/tag/sbb_girls
 
2013-05-26 04:10:51 PM
When I was a kid we had raw milk delivered right to our door twice a week.  No one ever got sick from it.  Think of it as the shellfish of dairy products.  Don't leave it sitting out and don't be stupid.
 
2013-05-26 04:11:10 PM

ImpendingCynic: If it would only be about people poisoning themselves, I wouldn't really care. But what's to stop an unscrupulous milk producer from mixing in a little raw milk to save the pasteurization costs? Or someone who sells a dairy-based item from a roadside stand forgetting to mention that they used raw milk.


What stops them now?
Adulterating a product is quite different from selling one properly labeled that may carry risks.
 
2013-05-26 04:11:35 PM

Pockafrusta: Grew up drinking raw milk, eating fresh eggs and canning most of our veggies from the garden... Still kickin after 42 years.


Interesting. Would you say you're more resistant to infections than other people around you, or was it the "standard" amount of colds you got throughout your life?
 
2013-05-26 04:11:46 PM
Carth:

The risks really aren't as great as some people claim. Around 200 people got sick from raw milk/cheese in 2002 (last year i could find data for) most at risk are kids and immunocompromised. When you consider 48 million people in the US every year have some foodborne illness it seems foolish so many states regulate raw cheese/milk

And can you guess why only 200 or so people got sick? BECAUSE THE OTHERS DRANK PASTEURIZED MILK.
Extrapolate how many more would get ill if everyone drank that sh*t.

Many more people got sick before Louis found his little trick. It's not foolish that something so simple as a little heat could prevent so much misery, and that's why states regulate dairy products. Why don't we stop immunizing children or let manufacturers of sleepwear use all the flammable materials they want? Let's put those hard metal dashboards and spikey spoked metal steering wheels back into cars again!

Before labeling something as "foolish", why not look into the history of why it exists?
 
2013-05-26 04:12:21 PM

Carth: t3knomanser: Carth: Around 200 people got sick from raw milk/cheese in 2002

Raw numbers are meaningless without context. Raw milk is not sold in the same volumes as processed milk.

It is legal in 28 states and just about all of Europe. 9.7 million people in the US regularly drink raw milk (if that helps put the 200 in context for you) .

Considering the level of illness in France, where raw milk and cheese are so common and you can actually but it from vending machines, is incredibly low I don't see why the US would be very different.


Europe's food supply chain is inherently safer than the US. The US supply chain, as regulated by the USDA and FDA, is based upon the principle that all food will be properly processed and stabilized before being consumed. You can dump raw eggs all over raw hamburger in Europe and nobody would bat an eye. In the US, that is like playing Russian roulette with your guts. The regulatory standards here are built around factory farms and large processing plants, not small craft farms. You can't have two sets of standards in one marketplace so we have to go with the one that is geared toward the dangerous players who provide the bulk of the food, not the craft farmers who may be able to provide safer food. In other words, if you want to eat like that you either have to form your own self-contained food supply or go somewhere that isn't dominated by the same industrial approach to food that we have in the US. Any exceptions to the food safety rules would be exploited by major players and result in massive outbreaks of food borne illnesses. You know that, I know that, and anyone with a brain knows that. You can't write exceptions to the laws without allowing the major players to exploit those rules, because they buy the legislation in the first place. It will be introduced by industry shills in Congress and pass because the major players are already setting up the infrastructure to take advantage of it to capture more market share. And on the local level they will force property sales to their subsidiaries by introducing zoning restrictions requiring massive capital investments, with no grandfathering clause (but they will give you 3 years to make the required changes before you are shut down). It is trivially easy to do the local market takeovers, actually, especially on something like this because it won't be high profile. It will be like that insurance company that is forcing the battered women's shelter in Cincinnati to sell to them, despite the location being the best suited for women to reach. Or they could do it through eminent domain, buying the cooperation of the local authorities to hand them the land as I saw in Indianapolis several times.

George Carlin was right about us having owners and the only way to have any chance at some veneer of safety is to not give them loopholes or exemptions to exploit. Otherwise we become China.
 
2013-05-26 04:13:07 PM

Dinjiin: SumoJeb: In the states why wouldn't a waiver stating that the consumer assumes the risks related to the product be more than enough? Some hippy wants dirty milk? Sure, but they assume the risks and waive their right to sue for the foreseeable health problems associated with the product.

Imagine a scenario where a head-of-household consumes raw milk, gets sick and then dies.  Add to that scenario a wife, several young children and little-to-no medical or life insurance.  So the wife is left with unpaid medical bills and an insufficient amount of income.  Guess who now qualifies for food stamps and welfare that the rest of Wisconsin gets to pay for?  Or you can waive their right for public assistance since dad was an idiot.  So now you have a family on the street with all of the social ills that go along with it.

We're no longer in an age where Darwin gets to throw chlorine into the gene pool of the entire family.  So it is in the interest of society that you don't completely screw the pooch by being a retard, thereby screwing things up for the rest of us.


What other things can the government ban in order to keep the head of household from dying?  I guess he can forget about that hiking trip he had planned, and no more sky diving.  He's the head of a household and the government is authorized to curtail his freedom so that he continues to provide for his family.
 
2013-05-26 04:13:43 PM

Xcott: But many people believe that unprocessed milk, straight from the farm, contains bacteria that boost the immune system and have other beneficial properties.

This really sounds like a problem that's going to take care of itself.


You're anti-gun AND anti-raw milk? Wanna go for the trifecta?
 
2013-05-26 04:13:46 PM
I had to have my wife translate for me (she's the french one) but we usually get our milk/cheese from Fromagerie Pascal Beillevaire. It was yellow capped and labeled Lait Cru so I'm assuming it is raw.

My mouth is watering now just thinking about the cheeses.
 
2013-05-26 04:13:47 PM
Milk is homogenized and pasteurized to keep you safe.

If you ever fought your siblings for dibs on the delicious creamy top of the bottle of milk back in the day you'll remember that mom took the bottle before there was bloodshed.
 
2013-05-26 04:14:43 PM

Mentalpatient87: awalkingecho: and sucking on the teat

Uhh, I don't know about you, dude, but I get my milk in a jug. You know that doesn't help your argument, right? And I'm gonna need to see a citation for
......


Teat.  Jug.  Whatever.  ;)
 
2013-05-26 04:15:35 PM

rewind2846: Carth:

The risks really aren't as great as some people claim. Around 200 people got sick from raw milk/cheese in 2002 (last year i could find data for) most at risk are kids and immunocompromised. When you consider 48 million people in the US every year have some foodborne illness it seems foolish so many states regulate raw cheese/milk

And can you guess why only 200 or so people got sick? BECAUSE THE OTHERS DRANK PASTEURIZED MILK.
Extrapolate how many more would get ill if everyone drank that sh*t.

Many more people got sick before Louis found his little trick. It's not foolish that something so simple as a little heat could prevent so much misery, and that's why states regulate dairy products. Why don't we stop immunizing children or let manufacturers of sleepwear use all the flammable materials they want? Let's put those hard metal dashboards and spikey spoked metal steering wheels back into cars again!

Before labeling something as "foolish", why not look into the history of why it exists?


9 million people regularly drink raw milk in the US and 200 got sick. Those are pretty good odds and better than the numbers for medium rare beef.
 
2013-05-26 04:15:39 PM

Somaticasual: Folks, you can chance raw milk if you really want to feel different or ultra-organic.
But really - there's a very good reason pasteurization was a breakthrough: people dying or getting ridiculously sick from illnesses caused by, wait for it - raw milk.  The FDA didn't ban its sale to piss off the hippies - it banned it in the interest of public health.


I say lift the ban on raw milk sales and let people take their lives into their own hands,  Just make people sign a consent form and let them have at it.
 
2013-05-26 04:17:27 PM

jalora: Raw milk needs to be illegal because you can't trust morons not to feed it to their kids.


Good.  It will mean fewer stupid kids growing up into stupid adults.
 
2013-05-26 04:18:57 PM

jalora: Raw milk hamburger meat needs to be illegal because you can't trust morons not to feed it to their kids.


FTFY
 
2013-05-26 04:19:51 PM
As soon as I switched to raw milk, it was pretty clear my body was getting better.  I started vomiting and shiatting out all the stuff from the milk products I'd been drinking for decades.  I've lost 60 pounds in just 4 weeks, and I've been saving a lot of gas money because I'm too sick to go anywhere!  These Monsanto creeps and their Pasteurized Milk are the same idiots who keep trying to get us to use vaccines and antibiotics.  Anyone who's been on the caveman diet knows that the human body only naturally processes meat and creek water.  Next you'll be trying to get people to drink out of city water lines.
 
2013-05-26 04:20:34 PM

awalkingecho: Alternatively we can get around to accepting the fact that we're the only species who utilizes the milk of a mammal that isn't our own and that it's not natural, and just stop drinking EITHER.

That works too.


or you could just not talk out of your ass.  that works too.
 
2013-05-26 04:20:36 PM

Scrotastic Method: Sharksfan: Milk is gross and I don't drink it.  Seriously...why on earthy would you want to drink another animals milk?

Yeah, why drink their milk. Our species makes milk. While we're at, let's stop eating their meat. Our species makes meat.


Im with ya man. Lets take women. Specifically feminists.
put them on a farm. And milk them. And sell it for profit.
we could make cheeses to.
 
2013-05-26 04:21:33 PM

Mentalpatient87: awalkingecho: Alternatively we can get around to accepting the fact that we're the only species who utilizes the milk of a mammal that isn't our own and that it's not natural, and just stop drinking EITHER.

That works too.

We're the only species that does a lot of things. Should we stop using toothpaste and automobiles, too? It's so unnatural!


We are a product of the same evolutionary processes as every other species on this planet. These processes lead to the development of our minds, hand-eye coordination and relatively long-term life spans, which allows us all this time to acquire every skill we have, to learn everything that we know and be able to apply it in creative and insightful ways.

We're every bit a part of the natural world as all the wildlife on the planet.

Therefore, anything which we do, from create and use computers to designing and running cars, to paving roads to move those cars; to formulating toothpaste which preserves our teeth throughout our lives is just as completely natural as herds of buffalo migrating across the plains of North America before the arrival of Europeans.

Other forms of life can be just as destructive and competitive as mankind, if not more so.
 
2013-05-26 04:21:40 PM
Somaticasual

Folks, you can chance raw milk if you really want to feel different or ultra-organic.
But really - there's a very good reason pasteurization was a breakthrough: people dying or getting ridiculously sick from illnesses caused by, wait for it - raw milk. The FDA didn't ban its sale to piss off the hippies - it banned it in the interest of public health.

Thank god we have armed govt thugs to make my decisions for me. Can't wait till they're my doctor.
 
2013-05-26 04:21:54 PM

John Buck 41: You're anti-gun AND anti-raw milk? Wanna go for the trifecta?


Whatever it is, it sounds like a Hell of a trifecta.

Guns, raw milk, and........
           raw milk, aaaand.....
           raw milk, aaaaaaaaaaannnnd....

/smokin' the reefer
 
2013-05-26 04:23:47 PM
rewind2846:

Before labeling something as "foolish", why not look into the history of why it exists?

Well, it exists because people back then weren't as smart as today.  Proof: They must not have been very smart if they were dying from easily preventable diseases that we don't have nowadays.

/it's not circular logic, it's Mobeius
 
2013-05-26 04:25:05 PM

0z79: Mentalpatient87: awalkingecho: Alternatively we can get around to accepting the fact that we're the only species who utilizes the milk of a mammal that isn't our own and that it's not natural, and just stop drinking EITHER.

That works too.

We're the only species that does a lot of things. Should we stop using toothpaste and automobiles, too? It's so unnatural!

We are a product of the same evolutionary processes as every other species on this planet. These processes lead to the development of our minds, hand-eye coordination and relatively long-term life spans, which allows us all this time to acquire every skill we have, to learn everything that we know and be able to apply it in creative and insightful ways.

We're every bit a part of the natural world as all the wildlife on the planet.

Therefore, anything which we do, from create and use computers to designing and running cars, to paving roads to move those cars; to formulating toothpaste which preserves our teeth throughout our lives is just as completely natural as herds of buffalo migrating across the plains of North America before the arrival of Europeans.

Other forms of life can be just as destructive and competitive as mankind, if not more so.


While I appreciate your point, the likelihood of other species chemically engineering something in a lab that may be perniciously harmful and selling it to other members of the species for its benefits really isn't going to happen with, say, cows.  Or birds.  Or sharks.

While your point about all that which is not supernatural being natural is logically consistent, it's a bit too much word-playing to really have anything to do with the intent behind what people are saying when they use the word "natural."
 
2013-05-26 04:26:05 PM

Carth: I had to have my wife translate for me (she's the french one) but we usually get our milk/cheese from Fromagerie Pascal Beillevaire. It was yellow capped and labeled Lait Cru so I'm assuming it is raw.

My mouth is watering now just thinking about the cheeses.


Congrats you got it straight from the producter and it is the only way and extremely rare. Lots of friends in Franche-Comte, the Alps, Normandy and Brittany, and you really can't find it in very many places.
 
2013-05-26 04:27:42 PM
i.qkme.me
 
2013-05-26 04:28:40 PM

The Pope of Manwich Village: [i.qkme.me image 400x600]


Can't we get more current stereotypes?
 
2013-05-26 04:30:03 PM

awalkingecho: underwhere: awalkingecho: Alternatively we can get around to accepting the fact that we're the only species who utilizes the milk of a mammal that isn't our own and that it's not natural, and just stop drinking EITHER.

That works too.

We're also the only species to drive cars and that's not natural so let's stop. Oh and forget the internet. No other animal has that so let's just shut it down.

I'm not sure either of those things require enzymes most of our bodies weren't equipped for. When was the last time you met someone who was intolerant of those natures?


Lactase (the enzyme that breaks down the sugar in milk) production declines steeply after weaning and again after mid-life.  So, most people end up intolerant of unfermented milk products.
 
2013-05-26 04:31:57 PM
From what I read I understood that pasteurization is needed because of industrial handling and storage. The harmful bacteria doesn't come from the cows, but are in the pumps, pipes, vessels, etc. which got contaminated through water, air and people. Keeping them sterile is too complicated/expensive in a large scale operation, so the product itself gets the treatment.
Small farms on the other hand can produce raw milk which is safe. The problem is that mistakes happen there too.
 
2013-05-26 04:33:37 PM
Carth:

Before labeling something as "foolish", why not look into the history of why it exists?

9 million people regularly drink raw milk in the US and 200 got sick. Those are pretty good odds and better than the numbers for medium rare beef.


Well then why not just walk up and take a bite out of the cow right after it's slaughtered? Maybe it's because we figured out that cooking not only improves the texture and makes it more digestible, but it kills most of the pathogens. What a concept!
I don't want to take "odds" with my health. There's enough sh*t out there in the world to kill you without your even trying. Why tempt Darwin just by having a bowl of cereal? Not worth it.

/people who eat bloody meat are morons
//they deserve their intestinal parasites
 
2013-05-26 04:33:50 PM
Raw milk is generally safe IF handled properly and IF the conditions are sanitary. The issue is that factory farming makes the right conditions impossible.

I drink raw milk, but it comes from my animals. I'm not going to trust Joe Blow to wash his hands and keep his barn and equipment clean enough. I've seen people wash up, rub their nose and go right to work. Uhm, no. That's not sanitary.
 
2013-05-26 04:33:52 PM
Jesus H. Christ on a crutch, how goddamn difficult is it to grasp this simple concept. Fine, I'll hold up pretty pictures:

Drinking this:
media.naplesnews.com
= eating this:
3.bp.blogspot.com
= treating bedbugs with this:
www.suppliesforsmallholders.co.uk
= treating the flu with this:
whatgrammyknew.files.wordpress.com
all of which = this:
img81.imageshack.us

or even this:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

It's dangerous, antiquarian, outmoded, anti-intellectual thinking which will only serve to get people killed.

I know I know I know: "B-B-BUT it's my body! I can do whatever I want. Freedom! 'Mur'ca" etc. etc.

Well this isn't just about YEWWW, or "the children," okay, asshat?

As we all know, there are some genuinely honest, reasonably intelligent people out there...who will swallow and believe anything they hear with the label "natural" or "breakthrough"...and they're not necessarily stupid...but they ARE very very stubborn about what they will and will not believe. And you CAN'T TELL THEM ANYTHING because you call them 'Mom' or 'Dad' or 'Auntie' or 'Uncle' or 'Grandma' or 'Gramps.'

People that you care about will die....

because YOU can't let go of a patently stupid, obsolete, barbaric practice up there with bloodletting and leeches.

So farking give it up already, and let the world go kicking and screaming beyond the nineteenth goddamn century.
 
2013-05-26 04:34:07 PM

Somaticasual: Folks, you can chance raw milk if you really want to feel different or ultra-organic.
But really - there's a very good reason pasteurization was a breakthrough: people dying or getting ridiculously sick from illnesses caused by, wait for it - raw milk.  The FDA didn't ban its sale to piss off the hippies - it banned it in the interest of public health.


What you don't understand is the advances that have been made in the areas of herd health and almost instant detection of pathogens in raw milk.  In Pasteur's day, humans didn't understand the links between bovine and human tuberculosis, for example.  Bovine tuberculosis has been virtually eradicated in dairy herds.  In Pasteur's day, milking was done in open buckets which allowed for contamination from a variety of sources.  In modern day milking parlors, the milk is drawn directly from the cow into a closed system.

If you don't want to drink raw milk, don't.  But don't try to use information and practices from 100 years ago to ridicule those who do.
 
2013-05-26 04:34:15 PM

BitwiseShift: Milk is homogenized and pasteurized to keep you safe.

If you ever fought your siblings for dibs on the delicious creamy top of the bottle of milk back in the day you'll remember that mom took the bottle before there was bloodshed.


Pasteurized, yes, but homogenization isn't a food safety thing. I think it's just how most people expect milk to be these days. You can buy non-homogenized milk at Trader Joe's.
 
2013-05-26 04:37:01 PM
I would just like to point out that raw milk can be rendered perfectly safe by the simple expedient of adding ample quantities of Kahlua and Vodka.  Out of an abundance of caution I also treat all my store bought milk this way, just incase some evil dairy farmer slipped raw milk passed the inspectors.
 
2013-05-26 04:37:49 PM

Carth: 9 million people regularly drink raw milk in the US and 200 got sick. Those are pretty good odds and better than the numbers for medium rare beef.


I have doubts that three percent of the US population regularly drinks raw milk.

Me?  The only milk I drink is straight from the breasts of Cambodian immigrants.
 
2013-05-26 04:44:40 PM
Grew up on it....and when we had extra we made cheese....bought from a local farmer after our cow was gone....never had a problem.
 
2013-05-26 04:45:58 PM

instantwin: From what I read I understood that pasteurization is needed because of industrial handling and storage. The harmful bacteria doesn't come from the cows, but are in the pumps, pipes, vessels, etc. which got contaminated through water, air and people. Keeping them sterile is too complicated/expensive in a large scale operation, so the product itself gets the treatment.
Small farms on the other hand can produce raw milk which is safe. The problem is that mistakes happen there too.



I'm pretty close to absolutely certain that the part I've bolded is wrong. The use of clean-in-place (CIP) technology and systems is mandated in the U.S., dairy processing equipment is designed and built to sanitary standards and is inspected several times during manufacture and installation, including borescoping of all the piping to make sure the insides are smooth. There's a huge regulatory apparatus in place to make sure everything's cleaned adequately after installation.

But I'm just quibbling here, what I said doesn't necessarily take anything away from your original point. I'm guessing that a.) it still stands, and b.) the real reason is that milk from many farms is combined in tank trucks and silos before processing and packaging.

/Electrical controls engineer employed by Food & Dairy OEMs for most of my career
//I've commissioned an HTST milk pasteurizer and a bunch of CIP systems in my day
 
2013-05-26 04:53:34 PM

awalkingecho: Alternatively we can get around to accepting the fact that we're the only species who utilizes the milk of a mammal that isn't our own and that it's not natural, and just stop drinking EITHER.

That works too.


Good lord that's such a retarded farking argument. We're also the only species that builds complex mechanical devices, uses computers, and has air conditioning. Should we stop with that, too?

/Take your head out of your ass
 
2013-05-26 04:53:34 PM

awalkingecho: Alternatively we can get around to accepting the fact that we're the only species who utilizes the milk of a mammal that isn't our own and that it's not natural, and just stop drinking EITHER.

That works too.


We're also the only species that stuffs cheese into hot dogs. You gonna suggest we stop doing that, because them's fightin' words.
 
2013-05-26 04:53:35 PM
SirMadness:
So farking give it up already, and let the world go kicking and screaming beyond the nineteenth goddamn century.

From what I've been reading here many of these folks don't really give a rat's ass about the "nutritional value", but about their irrational distrust of the "guvmint".

From the link: "In an email to Food Safety News, Bartlett said that what surprised him the most about the results of the survey of raw-milk drinkers was that such a small percentage of them trusted public health officials regarding what food is safe to eat."

Hey morans... THAT'S THEIR JOB.

They believe that the FDA and CDC, non-political organizations, say that pasteurization and warnings about diseases and parasites such as Brucella, Campylobacter, Listeria, Mycobacterium bovis, Salmonella, Shiga toxin-producing E. coli, Shigella, Streptococcus pyogenes, and Yersinia enterocolitica are "propaganda".

Playing craps with your health because you thing this "pasteurization" thing is an evil guvmint conspiracy? Maybe we should let these people drink all the raw milk they want. Feed it to their kids too. That would clean the gene pool up PDQ.
 
2013-05-26 04:57:39 PM

HK-MP5-SD: I would just like to point out that raw milk can be rendered perfectly safe by the simple expedient of adding ample quantities of Kahlua and Vodka.  Out of an abundance of caution I also treat all my store bought milk this way, just incase some evil dairy farmer slipped raw milk passed the inspectors.


What if you find Kahlua and/or milk to be disgusting?

/in fact, forget the theme park
 
2013-05-26 04:57:55 PM

Satanic_Hamster: Carth: 9 million people regularly drink raw milk in the US and 200 got sick. Those are pretty good odds and better than the numbers for medium rare beef.

I have doubts that three percent of the US population regularly drinks raw milk.

Me?  The only milk I drink is straight from the breasts of Cambodian immigrants.


The CDC estimates raw milk drinkers at 1% of the population. Nevertheless, a majority of the sickness from tainted dairy comes from raw milk. Cite
 
2013-05-26 05:00:27 PM

Satanic_Hamster: Carth: 9 million people regularly drink raw milk in the US and 200 got sick. Those are pretty good odds and better than the numbers for medium rare beef.

I have doubts that three percent of the US population regularly drinks raw milk.

Me?  The only milk I drink is straight from the breasts of Cambodian immigrants.


3% of Americans drank raw milk in the past 7 day according to  the CDC (PDF warning)

It is also worth noting that for the US there were 1,414 illnesses, 80 hospitalizations, and 0 deaths attributed to raw milk between 1998 and 2010. Pizza was responsible for 1,614 illnesses, 20 hospitalizations, and 3 deaths during the same time frame.
 
2013-05-26 05:06:39 PM

Xcott: John Buck 41: You're anti-gun AND anti-raw milk? Wanna go for the trifecta?

Whatever it is, it sounds like a Hell of a trifecta.

Guns, raw milk, and........
           raw milk, aaaand.....
           raw milk, aaaaaaaaaaannnnd....

/smokin' the reefer


Well, I'm not a stoner. Or did you mean you were? That, and/or if you're anti-booze we might have something going.
 
2013-05-26 05:08:29 PM

Carth: Imagine a scenario where the head of household gets drunk and dies, smokes cigarettes an dies, eats a raw hamburger and dies, eats undercooked poultry and dies, eats too much fast food and dies...


Everything you brought up is regulated and/or discouraged by the government in some way.  Kids aren't allowed to drink or smoke and are discouraged from fast food.  Drinking and smoking are banned in many public areas.  Public intoxication and driving while intoxicated are illegal  Most of the meat I purchase from the store include hygiene warnings and recommendations on safe cooking.  Fast food restaurants are increasingly banned from using trans fats and are increasingly required to post caloric information.

Try again.


pedrop357: I guess he can forget about that hiking trip he had planned, and no more sky diving. He's the head of a household and the government is authorized to curtail his freedom so that he continues to provide for his family.


Now we have a legitimate argument showing the slippery slope to nanny statedom and a real life version of I, Robot.  And you're right, the government could come in and place limits on hiking in the name of safety.  They can always take it farther and farther.

But IMHO, I would guess that the driving motivator of curtailed access to hiking would come less from a desire to save peoples' lives because of little Billy not growing up without a father and would more likely come from a desire to stop getting sued.  For some reason, people think that just because the government plots a trail through the wilderness that the government suddenly needs it to confirm to ADA safety regulations.  Because when somebody hurts themselves from a wash-out, falling ice/rocks or aggressive animals, Uncle Sam should have posted signs every 10' warning them.
 
2013-05-26 05:10:07 PM

SirMadness: Jesus H. Christ on a crutch, how goddamn difficult is it to grasp this simple concept. Fine, I'll hold up pretty pictures:

Drinking this:
[media.naplesnews.com image 607x405]
= eating this:
[3.bp.blogspot.com image 800x597]
= treating bedbugs with this:
[www.suppliesforsmallholders.co.uk image 300x300]
= treating the flu with this:
[whatgrammyknew.files.wordpress.com image 310x178]
all of which = this:
[img81.imageshack.us image 500x75]

or even this:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

It's dangerous, antiquarian, outmoded, anti-intellectual thinking which will only serve to get people killed.

I know I know I know: "B-B-BUT it's my body! I can do whatever I want. Freedom! 'Mur'ca" etc. etc.

Well this isn't just about YEWWW, or "the children," okay, asshat?

As we all know, there are some genuinely honest, reasonably intelligent people out there...who will swallow and believe anything they hear with the label "natural" or "breakthrough"...and they're not necessarily stupid...but they ARE very very stubborn about what they will and will not believe. And you CAN'T TELL THEM ANYTHING because you call them 'Mom' or 'Dad' or 'Auntie' or 'Uncle' or 'Grandma' or 'Gramps.'

People that you care about will die....

because YOU can't let go of a patently stupid, obsolete, barbaric practice up there with bloodletting and leeches.

So farking give it up already, and let the world go kicking and screaming beyond the nineteenth goddamn century.


You're a special kind of stupid aren't you?
Ignore all the research and science showing raw milk contains more nutrients and vitamins than pasteurized.
Ignore the fact that few people out of the many that drink raw milk get sick.
Ignore that the government is telling you what you can and can't ingest for your dietary pleasure and survival.

No, it's just bad because they did it a really really long time ago.
Rawr! old stuff bad!!!!
moran
 
2013-05-26 05:10:29 PM
In the UK you can sell raw milk (sometimes "green top" milk) with a warning, but supermarkets can't sell it, only direct sales to consumers from either the farmer or via direct delivery (which is dying off as the supermarkets have aggressively priced milk for years to shut down both the morning direct delivery firms and also to undermine corner shops as much as possible). The farms that sell it have to conform to more stringent safety standards, and are inspected more often.

Note however that double blind taste tests of raw milk rarely put it any better than pasteurized organic milk, although above generic homogenized non-organic, so probably most of the taste "benefit" is from 1) being non-homogenized and 2) the same effect as putting tap water into mineral water bottles makes people think it tastes better.
 
2013-05-26 05:12:56 PM

Carth: Satanic_Hamster: Carth: 9 million people regularly drink raw milk in the US and 200 got sick. Those are pretty good odds and better than the numbers for medium rare beef.

I have doubts that three percent of the US population regularly drinks raw milk.

Me?  The only milk I drink is straight from the breasts of Cambodian immigrants.

3% of Americans drank raw milk in the past 7 day according to  the CDC (PDF warning)

It is also worth noting that for the US there were 1,414 illnesses, 80 hospitalizations, and 0 deaths attributed to raw milk between 1998 and 2010. Pizza was responsible for 1,614 illnesses, 20 hospitalizations, and 3 deaths during the same time frame.


I wager than more than 3% of the population eats pizza.
 
2013-05-26 05:14:35 PM

ImpendingCynic: John Buck 41: Don't like raw milk? Don't drink it. Couldn't be easier.

If it would only be about people poisoning themselves, I wouldn't really care. But what's to stop an unscrupulous milk producer from mixing in a little raw milk to save the pasteurization costs? Or someone who sells a dairy-based item from a roadside stand forgetting to mention that they used raw milk.

Unless we can trust everyone in the product chain - and let's be honest, we know we can't - you have to stop it at the suppliers to keep things safe.


There's worse things in your food than raw milk, and most of them are perfectly legal.

/owns agribiz stock
//eats organic
 
2013-05-26 05:16:48 PM

John Buck 41: Xcott: John Buck 41: You're anti-gun AND anti-raw milk? Wanna go for the trifecta?

Whatever it is, it sounds like a Hell of a trifecta.

Guns, raw milk, and........
           raw milk, aaaand.....
           raw milk, aaaaaaaaaaannnnd....

/smokin' the reefer

Well, I'm not a stoner. Or did you mean you were? That, and/or if you're anti-booze we might have something going.


If you can't get a Super Troopers reference, I have nothing more to say to you.
 
2013-05-26 05:18:22 PM

Carth: If you've never had raw milk before you're missing out. The stuff tastes delicious and will make normal store bought milk seem undrinkable after  a few weeks.


When I was in grade school we took a field trip and got to milk samples straight from the cow. I'm guessin' that doesn't happen anymore.
Nobody got sick and the feel of cow teat stayed with some of us forever.
 
2013-05-26 05:18:52 PM
ChaosStar:
Ignore that the government is telling you what you can and can't ingest for your dietary pleasure and survival.

I rather like that the government has systems in place to control what may and may not be sold for human consumption.

Or would you prefer a nice tall glass of water and Xanthan Gum and corn syrup with a little bit of actual milk added for flavor?
 
2013-05-26 05:21:01 PM

teenage mutant ninja rapist: Scrotastic Method: Sharksfan: Milk is gross and I don't drink it.  Seriously...why on earthy would you want to drink another animals milk?

Yeah, why drink their milk. Our species makes milk. While we're at, let's stop eating their meat. Our species makes meat.

Im with ya man. Lets take women. Specifically feminists.
put them on a farm. And milk them. And sell it for profit.
we could make cheeses to.


PD already did that. It was simultaneously less and more sexy than it sounds.
 
2013-05-26 05:25:04 PM

Mister Peejay: HK-MP5-SD: I would just like to point out that raw milk can be rendered perfectly safe by the simple expedient of adding ample quantities of Kahlua and Vodka.  Out of an abundance of caution I also treat all my store bought milk this way, just incase some evil dairy farmer slipped raw milk passed the inspectors.

What if you find Kahlua and/or milk to be disgusting?

/in fact, forget the theme park


Well, I am pretty sure if you leave out the Kahlua and milk, and just drink the vodka you will be fairly safe from the pathogens often found in raw milk.  If you want to be safe you should continue to drink it until your Blood Alcohol Content or "BAC" reaches the point where bacteria cannot survive in your bloodstream.  Once again, out of an abundance of caution, I also try to do this once a week, generally Friday or Saturday night. You can't be too careful about this raw milk shiat.  It will sneak up on you and kill you if let your guard down.
 
2013-05-26 05:27:28 PM

toraque: Sim Tree: I severly headshake at the raw milk bufoonery; given that, I still beleive that the guy deserves a fair trial. I don't sit well with the idea that a judge can ban him from raising any sort of defense.

I think for a crime of this magnitude, a severe headshake alone won't do it.  You'll need at least a finger waggle and a harrumph.


Or you could take California's route, and set bail at $1,000,000.

You know, the state that has to let murderers out because of overcrowding...

http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/man-jailed-with-1-million-bail-for- he inous-crime-of-selling-milk/
 
2013-05-26 05:30:22 PM
HK-MP5-SD:
Well, I am pretty sure if you leave out the Kahlua and milk, and just drink the vodka you will be fairly safe from the pathogens often found in raw milk.  If you want to be safe you should continue to drink it until your Blood Alcohol Content or "BAC" reaches the point where bacteria cannot survive in your bloodstream.  Once again, out of an abundance of caution, I also try to do this once a week, generally Friday or Saturday night. You can't be too careful about this raw milk shiat.  It will sneak up on you and kill you if let your guard down.

Just to be safe, whenever I see raw milk, I make sure to avoid direct eye contact or turning my back to it, and I try to keep myself at a higher vantage point than it.
 
2013-05-26 05:37:36 PM

The Pope of Manwich Village: [www.marlerblog.com image 678x472]


24.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-05-26 05:37:52 PM

Mister Peejay: ChaosStar:
Ignore that the government is telling you what you can and can't ingest for your dietary pleasure and survival.

I rather like that the government has systems in place to control what may and may not be sold for human consumption.

Or would you prefer a nice tall glass of water and Xanthan Gum and corn syrup with a little bit of actual milk added for flavor?


You mean Yoo-Hoo?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoo-hoo
 
2013-05-26 05:43:17 PM
(can't say it - court order)

I don't get it.
 
2013-05-26 05:52:37 PM
Why I avoid raw milk like the plague... pun not intended

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/24954041/ns/health-infectious_diseases/t/t ai nted-cheese-fuels-tb-rise-california/#.UaKDjZzEwuc

Old story, but if your milk isn't pasteurized, Deity-Of-Choice only knows what you'll catch from it.
 
2013-05-26 05:56:21 PM

FueledByEthanol: Why I avoid raw milk like the plague... pun not intended

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/24954041/ns/health-infectious_diseases/t/t ai nted-cheese-fuels-tb-rise-california/#.UaKDjZzEwuc

Old story, but if your milk isn't pasteurized, Deity-Of-Choice only knows what you'll catch from it.


Did you even read the story?
That's from products " smuggled across the Mexican border or produced by families who try to make a living selling so-called "bathtub cheese" made in home tubs and backyard troughs. " I doubt very seriously it was the lack of pasteurization in the milk that made them sick.
 
2013-05-26 05:58:10 PM

Xcott: John Buck 41: Xcott: John Buck 41: You're anti-gun AND anti-raw milk? Wanna go for the trifecta?

Whatever it is, it sounds like a Hell of a trifecta.

Guns, raw milk, and........
           raw milk, aaaand.....
           raw milk, aaaaaaaaaaannnnd....

/smokin' the reefer

Well, I'm not a stoner. Or did you mean you were? That, and/or if you're anti-booze we might have something going.

If you can't get a Super Troopers reference, I have nothing more to say to you.


Ok. Other than the ABBA song, I have no idea what that refers to.

Cheers and bye.
 
2013-05-26 06:18:09 PM

Dinjiin: Carth: Imagine a scenario where the head of household gets drunk and dies, smokes cigarettes an dies, eats a raw hamburger and dies, eats undercooked poultry and dies, eats too much fast food and dies...

Everything you brought up is regulated and/or discouraged by the government in some way.  Kids aren't allowed to drink or smoke and are discouraged from fast food.  Drinking and smoking are banned in many public areas.  Public intoxication and driving while intoxicated are illegal  Most of the meat I purchase from the store include hygiene warnings and recommendations on safe cooking.  Fast food restaurants are increasingly banned from using trans fats and are increasingly required to post caloric information.

Try again.


That is exactly my point. Every one of those things is regulated but legal. Raw milk is flat out banned in many states while much riskier habits/foods are allowed for the adult population.
 
2013-05-26 06:21:53 PM

AbbeySomeone: Carth: If you've never had raw milk before you're missing out. The stuff tastes delicious and will make normal store bought milk seem undrinkable after  a few wee

..... the feel of cow teat stayed with some of us forever.


24.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-05-26 06:22:50 PM

underwhere: awalkingecho: Alternatively we can get around to accepting the fact that we're the only species who utilizes the milk of a mammal that isn't our own and that it's not natural, and just stop drinking EITHER.

That works too.

We're also the only species to drive cars and that's not natural so let's stop. Oh and forget the internet. No other animal has that so let's just shut it down.


3.bp.blogspot.com
If you say so.
 
2013-05-26 06:23:25 PM
Somaticasual
The FDA didn't ban its sale to piss off the hippies - it banned it in the interest of public health.

Which is why it shouldn't be sold in grocery stores. It's good for a week, but ONLY a week.


AppleOptionEsc
When it comes to food, "If I've never gotten sick off of it, it's 100% awesome and good and stop taking away muh freedoms". Or at least that's the response I get from my fellow Wisconsinites.

Have you considered stopping trying to take their freedoms?


Captain Dan
Who gives a shiat what people "believe"?

Why would them being wrong and you being correct give you the right to decide what they aren't allowed to put in their own bodies?


Dinjiin
Imagine a scenario where a head-of-household consumes raw milk, gets sick and then dies. Add to that scenario a wife, several young children and little-to-no medical or life insurance. So the wife is left with unpaid medical bills and an insufficient amount of income. Guess who now qualifies for food stamps and welfare that the rest of Wisconsin gets to pay for?

We'd better ban everything that could potentially be dangerous, then.


rewind2846
if everyone drank that sh*t.

No one's saying that. The issue is if anyone should be banned from drinking it.


Mock26
I say lift the ban on raw milk sales and let people take their lives into their own hands, Just make people sign a consent form and let them have at it.

The act of drinking it is the consent waiver.


SirMadness
As we all know, there are some genuinely honest, reasonably intelligent people out there...who will swallow and believe anything they hear with the label "natural" or "breakthrough"...and they're not necessarily stupid...but they ARE very very stubborn about what they will and will not believe.

That's an even WORSE argument than the "for your safety" argument. We have to ban some people from using something... because OTHER people might get confused? Okay, so it's not about ME being stupid, it's about THEM being stupid? If you explain the truth to people and they STILL disagree, it's still their right to be stupid.


rewind2846
Hey morans... THAT'S THEIR JOB.

The FDA has a right to its opinion and its findings should be taken under advisement.
People should still have the right to disregard that opinion.
 
2013-05-26 06:25:10 PM

awalkingecho: Alternatively we can get around to accepting the fact that we're the only species who utilizes the milk of a mammal that isn't our own and that it's not natural, and just stop drinking EITHER.

That works too.


http://www.takepart.com/photos/six-strange-interspecies-animal-adopt io ns

And a a slide show just to annoy you more.

Interspecies nursing. It's more common than you think!
 
2013-05-26 06:30:42 PM

Carth: Raw milk is flat out banned in many states while much riskier habits/foods are allowed for the adult population.


Welcome to the wonderful world of having insufficient lobbying efforts to override government regulation.
 
2013-05-26 06:52:05 PM
" You know Rob, if business people would just follow the rules we could have a LOT less government if that's what they want"

(a long pause)

"That's not human nature"

Which is why we have rules and regulations because some take unfair advantage to trust we put in them.

My friend Rob has his PhD in business management, is one of the smartest nicest and most giving men I know.
 
2013-05-26 07:11:05 PM
I don't understand why this case got so complicated.  If he was distributing a dangerous product, shut him down.
 
2013-05-26 07:13:48 PM

RanDomino: rewind2846
Hey morans... THAT'S THEIR JOB.

The FDA has a right to its opinion and its findings should be taken under advisement.
People should still have the right to disregard that opinion.


"Opinion?" What you have is an "opinion". What they have is "science". Unless you're a "scientist" who specializes in food borne pathogens and disease, an "opinion" is all it will be.
Me, I tend to believe in science, and don't get my panties in a knot because the scientists happen to work for the US government.
People don't have the right to strain our overburdened medical system and spread disease amongst the rest of the populace because of an "opinion".
 
2013-05-26 07:21:26 PM
rewind2846
"Opinion?" What you have is an "opinion". What they have is "science". Unless you're a "scientist" who specializes in food borne pathogens and disease, an "opinion" is all it will be.

Science is just an extremely well-founded opinion, not objective truth.

People don't have the right to strain our overburdened medical system and spread disease amongst the rest of the populace because of an "opinion".

Raw milk drinkers don't spread disease among the rest of the population. Only those who actually consume it are at risk. This was brought up in the other thread yesterday. The way the disease transfers from person to person is by touching or ingesting feces from an infected person. Oh, gosh, wow, apparently touching or ingesting human feces is unsafe, who knew?
 
2013-05-26 07:36:29 PM
The FDA has never approved harmful things.
 
2013-05-26 07:39:17 PM

JohnNS: The FDA has never approved harmful things.


nice
 
2013-05-26 07:43:20 PM
Wow. This is debate more contentious than which way the toilet paper should face.

/FWIW, it works the same hung either way.
 
2013-05-26 07:54:51 PM

Sharksfan: I go a whole different route on this one.

Milk is gross and I don't drink it.  Seriously...why on earthy would you want to drink another animals milk?

Total hypocrite disclaimer: I love cheese....


Only an American would drink a glass of milk. Disgusting. Use it to make butter and cheese and yogurt, put a bit in your coffee or tea, a bit here and there for cooking purposes and you're fine. Have some ice cream. All perfectly valid uses of milk. Do those instead.
 
2013-05-26 08:05:52 PM
All of you sheep who are actually supporting the government in this case are just.... such sheep.
It's clearly labeled, you can only get it if you explicitly join the private organization, and anyone who buys it knows EXACTLY what they are getting into. I bet they are also signing waivers.

Why are we wasting tax dollars coming after this guy?
 
2013-05-26 08:09:09 PM

RanDomino: AppleOptionEsc
When it comes to food, "If I've never gotten sick off of it, it's 100% awesome and good and stop taking away muh freedoms". Or at least that's the response I get from my fellow Wisconsinites.

Have you considered stopping trying to take their freedoms?


Law only says you can't buy it ('cos others can' sell it to you). You want it so badly, go ahead and make your own.
 
2013-05-26 08:14:05 PM
I suspect the jury only acquitted as a FARK YOU to the court for the whole CAN'T SAY RAW MILK horseshiat.

The government had no business getting involved. People can eat whatever the hell they want as long as they know what it is and the associated risks.
 
2013-05-26 08:14:18 PM
ArcadianRefugee
Law only says you can't buy it ('cos others can' sell it to you). You want it so badly, go ahead and make your own.

Have you considered stopping trying to take their freedoms to buy and sell to each other?
 
2013-05-26 08:17:29 PM

awalkingecho: Alternatively we can get around to accepting the fact that we're the only species who utilizes the milk of a mammal that isn't our own and that it's not natural, and just stop drinking EITHER.

That works too.


We should stop cooking meat and cutting vegetables too, because that's just unnatural.
 
2013-05-26 08:18:11 PM

duenor: All of you sheep who are actually supporting the government in this case are just.... such sheep.
It's clearly labeled, you can only get it if you explicitly join the private organization, and anyone who buys it knows EXACTLY what they are getting into. I bet they are also signing waivers.

Why are we wasting tax dollars coming after this guy?


Also, THIS
 
2013-05-26 08:29:53 PM

wambu: Wow. This is debate more contentious than which way the toilet paper should face.

/FWIW, it works the same hung either way.


You DO know why 9/11 happened, right?

Someone took all the poliet laper in the WTC and hung it so it came off the back instead of the front.

BOOM.  Sucked those airplanes in like a Hoover.

Everything else is just a cover-up because Big TP doesn't want to be liable.

/you do NOT squeeze the Charmin
 
2013-05-26 08:43:30 PM

Dinjiin: Carth: Raw milk is flat out banned in many states while much riskier habits/foods are allowed for the adult population.

Welcome to the wonderful world of having insufficient lobbying efforts to override government regulation.


Based on your earlier posts in this thread as well as this one, I'm guessing you either work for Big Dairy or are a lobbyist for them. Otherwise, why would you give a damn?
 
2013-05-26 08:46:22 PM

Pockafrusta: Grew up drinking raw milk, eating fresh eggs and canning most of our veggies from the garden... Still kickin after 42 years.


The problem is not when you are milking your own cow, the problem comes from the industrialization of the process. The poisoning doesn't come from the milk it comes from the fact the udders are below the anus. The milk can be safe with the right precautions, but you really need to know the source.
 
2013-05-26 08:47:07 PM

rewind2846: Carth:

Before labeling something as "foolish", why not look into the history of why it exists?

9 million people regularly drink raw milk in the US and 200 got sick. Those are pretty good odds and better than the numbers for medium rare beef.

Well then why not just walk up and take a bite out of the cow right after it's slaughtered? Maybe it's because we figured out that cooking not only improves the texture and makes it more digestible, but it kills most of the pathogens. What a concept!
I don't want to take "odds" with my health. There's enough sh*t out there in the world to kill you without your even trying. Why tempt Darwin just by having a bowl of cereal? Not worth it.

/people who eat bloody meat are morons
//they deserve their intestinal parasites


People who think that the red liquid seeping out of a rare steak is "blood" are morons.
 
2013-05-26 08:49:19 PM

rdu_voyager: What I'd like is is some irradiated non-homogenized milk. Kill to bacteria without heat and as otherwise unprocessed as possible.


That would be my preference as well.
 
2013-05-26 08:50:03 PM

Somaticasual: Folks, you can chance raw milk if you really want to feel different or ultra-organic.
But really - there's a very good reason pasteurization was a breakthrough: people dying or getting ridiculously sick from illnesses caused by, wait for it - raw milk.  The FDA didn't ban its sale to piss off the hippies - it banned it in the interest of public health.


This post illustrates the disconnect.

"You can chance raw milk if you really want to..."

So you agree the choice should be available; good.  Except government wants to remove that choice.  And then you go on to support the FDA in removing the choice.

It's like you dont listen to yourself.
 
2013-05-26 08:50:11 PM

megarian: As a raw milk advocate, I'm getting a kick...ou

...does anyone have some Pepto?


Does it need to be pink? Would you do lunch?
 
2013-05-26 08:53:03 PM

Carth: rdu_voyager: What I'd like is is some irradiated non-homogenized milk. Kill to bacteria without heat and as otherwise unprocessed as possible.

Low-temperature vat pasteurization is the term you'd want to look for. It actually tastes very similar to raw milk but is harder to find.


No way! I want one of these things:
uw-food-irradiation.engr.wisc.edu
 
2013-05-26 08:55:28 PM

RanDomino: rewind2846
"Opinion?" What you have is an "opinion". What they have is "science". Unless you're a "scientist" who specializes in food borne pathogens and disease, an "opinion" is all it will be.

Science is just an extremely well-founded opinion, not objective truth.


"Opinions" are not provable, reproducible, or measurable. They are simply pulled from the ass.
Consider: if I take a syringe of the Human Immune Deficiency Virus (HIV) responsible for AIDS, and say "in my opinion, if I inject this into your bloodstream you will not get sick and die" because I found one person who had HIV and didn't die... would you let me stick that needle in your arm?

The scientific data says "you're gonna die". The layman's observation tells you "you're gonna die". Over 30 years of history shows that "you're gonna die". So are you willing to take that chance on my opinion?

I'm not. If someone tells me that stepping off a cliff will kill me, I'm not going to stamp my feet like a toddler who doesn't get what he wants because someone told me to do something... I'm going to look over the edge of the cliff and conclude "while there is a slim chance a fall from this height may not kill me, let's not do this". That is where the stupid is coming from... not on the actual demerits of drinking a possibly disease carrying fluid, but about the recalcitrant "guvmint ain't gon' tell me nuthin!" mentality. These types of people consider their "independence from (certain) authority" to be more important than their own safety and the safety of their children.

Now I don't trust the government in all things, and no one should... not because it's THE GOVERNMENT, but because it's comprised of people and all that goes with that. But if it's something as simple as "boiling the milk so it kills the germs is a good thing" that might extend my life a few years past today, I'll go with that - whether it's the government giving me that advice or my own science training leading me to that conclusion.

There's way more important sh*t to deal with in this life. Learn to pick your fights.
 
2013-05-26 08:55:30 PM
While contaminated raw milk is dangerous, with some care and testing the hazard is minimal, especially with a small scale operation like this.  Importantly, there are a lot of bureaucrats who are almost neurotically bacteriophobic.  Some are even demanding that most food be irradiated just in case there are bacteria on it.  This is irrational.

In Europe EU bureaucrats were demanding that Germany had to pasteurize its beer, and that French Camembert and Brie cheese had to be pasteurized as well, ruining them.  The Germans and the French told the bureaucrats to go to hell.

Not all bacteria are bad.  In fact, having a healthy intestinal flora is essential to good health.  Even the infamous E. coli bacteria are essential for a healthy lower intestine, even if they are toxic elsewhere in the body.

And here is the zinger:  raw milk is incredibly delicious.  It makes pasteurized milk taste like powdered chalk in water.  People drank it for several thousand years, and only a tiny number got sick from it.  Based on taste alone, raw milk is worth the risk.

And the dairy industry knows this.  Since they have to pasteurize their milk, they do not want competition with a better tasting product.  So just like when they got a law passed that margarine could not be yellow, but had to come with a blue dye packet to be mixed by the consumer, their pressure on the USDA to forbid raw milk is just trying to keep down the competition.
 
2013-05-26 09:03:32 PM

John Buck 41: Based on your earlier posts in this thread as well as this one, I'm guessing you either work for Big Dairy or are a lobbyist for them.


Then you guessed wrong.
 
2013-05-26 09:03:34 PM

duenor: All of you sheep


Drink!
 
2013-05-26 09:04:19 PM

RanDomino: rewind2846
"Opinion?" What you have is an "opinion". What they have is "science". Unless you're a "scientist" who specializes in food borne pathogens and disease, an "opinion" is all it will be.

Science is just an extremely well-founded opinion, not objective truth.

People don't have the right to strain our overburdened medical system and spread disease amongst the rest of the populace because of an "opinion".

Raw milk drinkers don't spread disease among the rest of the population. Only those who actually consume it are at risk. This was brought up in the other thread yesterday. The way the disease transfers from person to person is by touching or ingesting feces from an infected person. Oh, gosh, wow, apparently touching or ingesting human feces is unsafe, who knew?


in related news, it's not illegal to eat shiat.
 
2013-05-26 09:05:45 PM

rewind2846: There's way more important sh*t to deal with in this life. Learn to pick your fights.


Exactly. When are you going to start railing against alcohol, tobacco, and all the shiat in processed foods that people (by a factor of a gazillion) consume more of than users of raw milk?
 
2013-05-26 09:08:17 PM

RanDomino: ArcadianRefugee
Law only says you can't buy it ('cos others can' sell it to you). You want it so badly, go ahead and make your own.

Have you considered stopping trying to take their freedoms


Drink!
 
2013-05-26 09:08:28 PM

Dinjiin: John Buck 41: Based on your earlier posts in this thread as well as this one, I'm guessing you either work for Big Dairy or are a lobbyist for them.

Then you guessed wrong.


Ok. You have a lot of input in this subject that doesn't affect you, though. Very strange.
 
2013-05-26 09:10:44 PM

John Buck 41: Dinjiin: John Buck 41: Based on your earlier posts in this thread as well as this one, I'm guessing you either work for Big Dairy or are a lobbyist for them.

Then you guessed wrong.

Ok. You have a lot of input in this subject that doesn't affect you, though. Very strange.


Is this your first time on the Internet?
 
2013-05-26 09:12:54 PM
MadAzza:

People who think that the red liquid seeping out of a rare steak is "blood" are morons.

Really? How many other intramuscular bodily fluids do mammals have that are red?
This isn't 20,000 BC. Cook your damn food.
 
2013-05-26 09:16:19 PM

Somaticasual: Folks, you can chance raw milk if you really want to feel different or ultra-organic.
But really - there's a very good reason pasteurization was a breakthrough: people dying or getting ridiculously sick from illnesses caused by, wait for it - raw milk.  The FDA didn't ban its sale to piss off the hippies - it banned it in the interest of public health.


I'm fine with a giant warning label. But if people want it and are going out of their way to get it, there is no one getting hurt but potentially themselves and therefore no justification for a ban.
 
2013-05-26 09:17:28 PM

John Buck 41: rewind2846: There's way more important sh*t to deal with in this life. Learn to pick your fights.

Exactly. When are you going to start railing against alcohol, tobacco, and all the shiat in processed foods that people (by a factor of a gazillion) consume more of than users of raw milk?


Alcohol killed one of my uncles, and cigarettes killed my mother back in the 80's (2 packs a day for over 20 years) so I have no great love for either of them. However, your analogy is flawed in that both alcoholism and nicotine are both addictions, while drinking "raw milk"... isn't.

"Bu-bu-bu-but I likes da taste!"  = FAIL
 
2013-05-26 09:18:05 PM

rewind2846: MadAzza:

People who think that the red liquid seeping out of a rare steak is "blood" are morons.

Really? How many other intramuscular bodily fluids do mammals have that are red?
This isn't 20,000 BC. Cook your damn food.


It is water and myoglobin.
You cook you food. Steak tartare is delicious.
 
2013-05-26 09:24:02 PM

rewind2846: MadAzza:

People who think that the red liquid seeping out of a rare steak is "blood" are morons.

Really? How many other intramuscular bodily fluids do mammals have that are red?
This isn't 20,000 BC. Cook your damn food.


It's a good idea to try to avoid using your own ignorance as a point of argument. I occasionally consume raw beef and often consume several types of raw fish, none of which are bleeding. The red liquid in a raw steak is a mixture of a protein called "myoglobin" and, mostly, water.

I don't consume raw milk. I have, when I lived on a farm. From the tank to my refrigerator, it went bad in less than 48 hours. Tasted great until then, though.
 
2013-05-26 09:26:35 PM
Maybe we should spend more time and money passing around information than passing laws.

Did they just get a higher fine and sentence than lots of other more aweful criminals?
 
2013-05-26 09:27:36 PM

John Buck 41: Dinjiin: John Buck 41: Based on your earlier posts in this thread as well as this one, I'm guessing you either work for Big Dairy or are a lobbyist for them.

Then you guessed wrong.

Ok. You have a lot of input in this subject that doesn't affect you, though. Very strange.


This is fark, and you think that's strange?

You're new around here aren't you?
 
2013-05-26 09:40:55 PM

rewind2846: John Buck 41: rewind2846: There's way more important sh*t to deal with in this life. Learn to pick your fights.

Exactly. When are you going to start railing against alcohol, tobacco, and all the shiat in processed foods that people (by a factor of a gazillion) consume more of than users of raw milk?

Alcohol killed one of my uncles, and cigarettes killed my mother back in the 80's (2 packs a day for over 20 years) so I have no great love for either of them. However, your analogy is flawed in that both alcoholism and nicotine are both addictions, while drinking "raw milk"... isn't.


LoL That's some industrial strength argument fail, friend. On that note, g'night.
 
2013-05-26 09:44:54 PM
Carth:
It is water and myoglobin.
You cook you food. Steak tartare is delicious.


MadAzza:The red liquid in a raw steak is a mixture of a protein called "myoglobin" and, mostly, water.
.


Myoglobin comes from damaged muscle tissue. It is a byproduct of blood, part of the oxygen carrying protein chain that gets O2 to muscle fibers. That's why the term "-globin" is in the name. It is used as the muscle works as an O2 supply before the rest of the bloodstream gets into gear during exertion.
Blood or blood related compounds should not be leaking from food as you eat it, unless you happen to live in the tiger cage at your local zoo. That's extremely nasty.
 
2013-05-26 09:49:54 PM
MadAzza:From the tank to my refrigerator, it went bad in less than 48 hours. Tasted great until then, though.

Could that be becuse there were... microorganisms... in it which made it "go bad"? Some sort of warning that humans have become familiar through evolution with which tells them "don't drink it", like the smell of sh*t which keeps them from touching the turds?

Let's see... what could help eliminate those nasty bugs... hmmmm...?
 
2013-05-26 09:53:52 PM
If I can drink it directly from Kate Upton's nipples, I'm cool with it.
 
2013-05-26 10:27:47 PM

rewind2846: MadAzza:From the tank to my refrigerator, it went bad in less than 48 hours. Tasted great until then, though.

Could that be becuse there were... microorganisms... in it which made it "go bad"? Some sort of warning that humans have become familiar through evolution with which tells them "don't drink it", like the smell of sh*t which keeps them from touching the turds?


Yes, absolutely.

Let's see... what could help eliminate those nasty bugs... hmmmm...?

Pasteurization, for one thing. Did you see the part where I said I don't drink raw milk? Or is your mistaken assumption that I drink the blood of calves somehow lead you to another erroneous conclusion?

If you want to argue about raw milk, you'll have to do it with someone else.
 
2013-05-26 10:46:40 PM

Carth: If you've never had raw milk before you're missing out. The stuff tastes delicious and will make normal store bought milk seem undrinkable after  a few weeks.


indeed. Raw milk tastes amazing.

I wonder if the risk of contamination is inherent in raw milk or if it is the process of milking or storage that contaminates it? If I had my own cow that I hand milked and drank the milk within a day would there still be a risk of illness?
I was raised on such raw milk and we never got ill so I wonder...

I also heard that some people that are allergic to pasteurised milk but can drink raw milk fine.
 
2013-05-26 10:50:04 PM

ginkor: While contaminated raw milk is dangerous, with some care and testing the hazard is minimal, especially with a small scale operation like this.  Importantly, there are a lot of bureaucrats who are almost neurotically bacteriophobic.  Some are even demanding that most food be irradiated just in case there are bacteria on it.  This is irrational.

In Europe EU bureaucrats were demanding that Germany had to pasteurize its beer, and that French Camembert and Brie cheese had to be pasteurized as well, ruining them.  The Germans and the French told the bureaucrats to go to hell.

Not all bacteria are bad.  In fact, having a healthy intestinal flora is essential to good health.  Even the infamous E. coli bacteria are essential for a healthy lower intestine, even if they are toxic elsewhere in the body.

And here is the zinger:  raw milk is incredibly delicious.  It makes pasteurized milk taste like powdered chalk in water.  People drank it for several thousand years, and only a tiny number got sick from it.  Based on taste alone, raw milk is worth the risk.

And the dairy industry knows this.  Since they have to pasteurize their milk, they do not want competition with a better tasting product.  So just like when they got a law passed that margarine could not be yellow, but had to come with a blue dye packet to be mixed by the consumer, their pressure on the USDA to forbid raw milk is just trying to keep down the competition.




The strain of E. Coli that people are (rightly) concerned about is O157:H7, and it is not found in the intestines of healthy humans. But it can be found in the intestines of some otherwise healthy cattle.
While relatively uncommon, E. coli O157:H7 can naturally be found in the intestinal contents of some cattle.[15] Cattle lack the shiga toxin receptor, Globotriaosylceramide, and therefore can be asymptomatic carriers of the bacterium.[16] The prevalence of E. coli O157:H7 in North American feedlot cattle herds ranges from 0 to 60%....

...Infection with E. coli O157:H7 follows ingestion of contaminated food or water, or oral contact with contaminated surfaces. It is highly virulent, with a low infectious dose: an inoculation of fewer than 10 to 100 CFU of E. coli O157:H7 is sufficient to cause infection, compared to over one-million CFU for other pathogenic E. coli strains.[18]

A main source of infection is undercooked ground beef; other sources include consumption of unpasteurized milk and juice, raw produce and salami, and contact with infected live animals. Waterborne transmission occurs through swimming in contaminated lakes, pools, or drinking inadequately treated water. The organism is easily transmitted from person to person and has been difficult to control in child day-care centers.


So, raw milk fanciers get a dose of O157:H7, and spread it around to others. It's a nasty bug. E. coli 0157:H7 is notorious because it can cause additional complications in children and the elderly; renal failure, anemia, and dehydration especially for children (termed HUS or hemolytic uremic syndrome) and spontaneous bleeding, organ failures, and mental changes in the elderly (termed TTP or thrombotic thrombocytopenic purpura). Some of these patients develop permanent disabilities or die.

But, freedom.
 
2013-05-26 11:27:57 PM

Repo Man: But, freedom.


Yeah, it comes with a price that some are unwilling to pay.
 
2013-05-26 11:32:34 PM
rewind2846
So are you willing to take that chance on my opinion?

We are not allowed to answer that question.

There's way more important sh*t to deal with in this life. Learn to pick your fights.

Maybe you should consider if there's an underlying strategic reason for picking this fight.


MadAzza
Drink!

Hey! I was mirroring ArcadianRefugee!
 
2013-05-26 11:36:28 PM

my herniated disc: Carth: If you've never had raw milk before you're missing out. The stuff tastes delicious and will make normal store bought milk seem undrinkable after  a few weeks.

indeed. Raw milk tastes amazing.

I wonder if the risk of contamination is inherent in raw milk or if it is the process of milking or storage that contaminates it?


All of the above, but since there are so many steps between the udder and the machine that caps the bottles, I think it's likely that most of the contamination is going to happen post-cow. Probably depends on the bug, though -- I'm guessing some bugs are likely to come from the cow, others probably only contaminate the milk somewhere else. Listeria is probably one of the latter. I'm not a microbiologist, though.


If I had my own cow that I hand milked and drank the milk within a day would there still be a risk of illness?
I was raised on such raw milk and we never got ill so I wonder...



Probably depends on how good you are at washing up, the condition of your equipment (no corrosion/pitting/cracks/other uncleanable places), and the health of your herd.
 
2013-05-26 11:44:08 PM
my herniated disc
I wonder if the risk of contamination is inherent in raw milk or if it is the process of milking or storage that contaminates it? If I had my own cow that I hand milked and drank the milk within a day would there still be a risk of illness?
I was raised on such raw milk and we never got ill so I wonder...


Partially inherent, partially a matter of udders being smeared with cow shiat, so if any of that gets into the bottles then without pasteurization... yeah.
The reason you never got ill is because it takes a little while for the harmful bacteria to multiply to a dangerous level. In an industrial agricultural system, that point can be reached before the milk even hits the grocery store shelves- between waiting for it to be picked up, processing and packaging, transportation, and stocking. And then it could sit on the shelf for a few days before being bought, and then another few days at home before it gets drank. Two weeks is really pushing it for raw milk.
But drinking it with a few days or a week is generally safe, assuming the producer is careful to keep everything clean on their end (which a consumer would be a fool to not inspect for themselves periodically).

I also heard that some people that are allergic to pasteurised milk but can drink raw milk fine.

It supposedly contains bacteria which can break down lactic acid. Those bacteria are killed in pasteurization. I don't know if it's true but that's the argument.


Repo Man
The organism is easily transmitted from person to person and has been difficult to control in child day-care centers.

Maybe you should read the rest of the article

Transmission is via the fecal-oral route
...
Infection with E. coli O157:H7 follows ingestion of contaminated food or water, or oral contact with contaminated surfaces


Oh, wow, you shouldn't have contact with human shiat! This is a totally new development and, I'm sure, a shock to all. I mean, it must be totally safe to eat the shiat of a person as long as they don't drink raw milk, right?
And maybe it spreads in day care centers because kids are shiatting their pants all the time? I'm sure day care centers would be totally safe from disease if it wasn't for those darn raw milk drinkers.
 
2013-05-26 11:46:45 PM

Frederick: Repo Man: But, freedom.

Yeah, it comes with a price that some are unwilling to pay.




Spitting on the sidewalk was banned because it spread tuberculosis. In my estimation, it is pretty near equivalent to the tradeoff between freedom and public health we have here. You are free to disagree.
 
2013-05-26 11:56:19 PM

Snarfangel: Carth: rdu_voyager: What I'd like is is some irradiated non-homogenized milk. Kill to bacteria without heat and as otherwise unprocessed as possible.

Low-temperature vat pasteurization is the term you'd want to look for. It actually tastes very similar to raw milk but is harder to find.

No way! I want one of these things:
[uw-food-irradiation.engr.wisc.edu image 541x290]



So I looked at that UW food irradiation page that that image came from, and according to them the process isn't approved for milk, so it's moot.

But even if you could, that thing in the picture looks like a $1.5 to $2million project. In comparison a couple batch pasteurization tanks could probably be installed for around 1/10th the cost.
 
2013-05-26 11:59:48 PM

RanDomino: my herniated disc I wonder if the risk of contamination is inherent in raw milk or if it is the process of milking or storage that contaminates it? If I had my own cow that I hand milked and drank the milk within a day would there still be a risk of illness? I was raised on such raw milk and we never got ill so I wonder... Partially inherent, partially a matter of udders being smeared with cow shiat, so if any of that gets into the bottles then without pasteurization... yeah. The reason you never got ill is because it takes a little while for the harmful bacteria to multiply to a dangerous level. In an industrial agricultural system, that point can be reached before the milk even hits the grocery store shelves- between waiting for it to be picked up, processing and packaging, transportation, and stocking. And then it could sit on the shelf for a few days before being bought, and then another few days at home before it gets drank. Two weeks is really pushing it for raw milk. But drinking it with a few days or a week is generally safe, assuming the producer is careful to keep everything clean on their end (which a consumer would be a fool to not inspect for themselves periodically). I also heard that some people that are allergic to pasteurised milk but can drink raw milk fine. It supposedly contains bacteria which can break down lactic acid. Those bacteria are killed in pasteurization. I don't know if it's true but that's the argument. Repo Man The organism is easily transmitted from person to person and has been difficult to control in child day-care centers. Maybe you should read the rest of the article Transmission is via the fecal-oral route ... Infection with E. coli O157:H7 follows ingestion of contaminated food or water, or oral contact with contaminated surfaces Oh, wow, you shouldn't have contact with human shiat! This is a totally new development and, I'm sure, a shock to all. I mean, it must be totally safe to eat the shiat of a person as lo ...


So, just don't eat shiat and you're ok? Is that really what you're gonna go with? We are talking about very tiny amounts.

Infections start when you swallow STEC-in other words, when you get tiny (usually invisible) amounts of human or animal feces in your mouth. Unfortunately, this happens more often than we would like to think about. Exposures that result in illness include consumption of contaminated food, consumption of unpasteurized (raw) milk, consumption of water that has not been disinfected, contact with cattle, or contact with the feces of infected people. Some foods are considered to carry such a high risk of infection with E. coli O157 or another germ that health officials recommend that people avoid them completely. These foods include unpasteurized (raw) milk, unpasteurized apple cider, and soft cheeses made from raw milk. Sometimes the contact is pretty obvious (working with cows at a dairy or changing diapers, for example), but sometimes it is not (like eating an undercooked hamburger or a contaminated piece of lettuce). People have gotten infected by swallowing lake water while swimming, touching the environment in petting zoos and other animal exhibits, and by eating food prepared by people who did not wash their hands well after using the toilet. Almost everyone has some risk of infection.
How are these infections spread?
 
2013-05-27 12:08:53 AM

Repo Man: Frederick: Repo Man: But, freedom.

Yeah, it comes with a price that some are unwilling to pay.

Spitting on the sidewalk was banned because it spread tuberculosis. In my estimation, it is pretty near equivalent to the tradeoff between freedom and public health we have here. You are free to disagree.


Am I?  Because it seems like I'm not according to the FDA.
 
2013-05-27 12:12:54 AM

RanDomino: It supposedly contains bacteria which can break down lactic acid. Those bacteria are killed in pasteurization. I don't know if it's true but that's the argument.



I think you mean lactose, and I think that the benefit would have to come from giving these good bugs a home in your GI tract.

If they ate all the lactose before you got around to drinking it you'd have a random cultured milk product. Maybe something like yogurt or cultured buttermilk if you're lucky, or spoiled milk if you're not.
 
2013-05-27 12:21:18 AM

SN1987a goes boom: Somaticasual: Folks, you can chance raw milk if you really want to feel different or ultra-organic.
But really - there's a very good reason pasteurization was a breakthrough: people dying or getting ridiculously sick from illnesses caused by, wait for it - raw milk.  The FDA didn't ban its sale to piss off the hippies - it banned it in the interest of public health.

I can't believe people are stupid enough to not know this.  I mean, its like boiling contaminated water.  This is basic.


Which btw is only somewhat effective and doesn't kill some of the sporulating and it cyst producing species of bacteria/parasites
 
2013-05-27 12:28:37 AM
Repo Man
So, just don't eat shiat and you're ok? Is that really what you're gonna go with? We are talking about very tiny amounts.

No one has yet cited a case where raw milk actually caused one of these dreaded day care e. coli outbreaks, just told a scary story about what could hypothetically happen. What exactly is the risk to others according to you? .^A%? .0000001%? Anyone who really wants raw milk probably can already get it, so if it's so terrible why hasn't everyone in the world died of projectile diarrhea?
 
2013-05-27 01:04:22 AM

my herniated disc: Carth: If you've never had raw milk before you're missing out. The stuff tastes delicious and will make normal store bought milk seem undrinkable after  a few weeks.

indeed. Raw milk tastes amazing.

I wonder if the risk of contamination is inherent in raw milk or if it is the process of milking or storage that contaminates it? If I had my own cow that I hand milked and drank the milk within a day would there still be a risk of illness?
I was raised on such raw milk and we never got ill so I wonder...

I also heard that some people that are allergic to pasteurised milk but can drink raw milk fine.


The science points to the fact that if you are raised on such products as raw milk, and no major contamination happens, you will be just fine.

In simple terms, if your body is adjusted to the organisms in natural milk, they aren't dangerous to you.  The same thing goes for treated milk.  If you were to abstain from dairy for many years and then drink some milk (any kind) it's likely to not agree with you very much.  Of course, the same is true of steak and many other foods.
 
2013-05-27 01:19:23 AM

Somaticasual: Folks, you can chance raw milk if you really want to feel different or ultra-organic.
But really - there's a very good reason pasteurization was a breakthrough: people dying or getting ridiculously sick from illnesses caused by, wait for it - raw milk.  The FDA didn't ban its sale to piss off the hippies - it banned it in the interest of public health.


Fascist.
 
2013-05-27 01:37:21 AM
Considering measles is making a comeback because fools won't vaccinate their kids and there are drug resistant TB strains to be had, I'm about sure any herd benefits we enjoy from general standards of sanitation are quite strained. To the bursting point, in fact. 25 years ago, I occasionally enjoyed a little raw goat milk but with all the anti vaccine types spreading diseases, I wouldn't chance it now. An animal looks healthy while it's contagious and a significant portion of our population refuses to prevent disease by vaccines.  Bet me these are the same guy's with cows and goats for your raw milk drinking. So Bubba gets exposed to something a thinking person would have a shot for, passes it t opp his goat, who is not up on vaccine either, and then gives you all that diseased milk. The next day he breaks out in spots, but you've already given it to your untreated kids. Your doctor has maybe never seen this in real life, be cause it's supposedly rare.  Except none of you hippies get your shots and the cow doesn't either.
 
2013-05-27 01:57:43 AM

irreverend mother: Considering measles is making a comeback because fools won't vaccinate their kids and there are drug resistant TB strains to be had, I'm about sure any herd benefits we enjoy from general standards of sanitation are quite strained. To the bursting point, in fact. 25 years ago, I occasionally enjoyed a little raw goat milk but with all the anti vaccine types spreading diseases, I wouldn't chance it now. An animal looks healthy while it's contagious and a significant portion of our population refuses to prevent disease by vaccines.  Bet me these are the same guy's with cows and goats for your raw milk drinking. So Bubba gets exposed to something a thinking person would have a shot for, passes it t opp his goat, who is not up on vaccine either, and then gives you all that diseased milk. The next day he breaks out in spots, but you've already given it to your untreated kids. Your doctor has maybe never seen this in real life, be cause it's supposedly rare.  Except none of you hippies get your shots and the cow doesn't either.


Nothing hypothetical of hyperbole about that scenario.  In fact that exact scenario is why humans went extinct thousands of years ago.
 
2013-05-27 02:50:53 AM
Can someone tell me how many libertarians ITT are insisting that each life is lived a magical bubble utopia where everyone draws each liberty breath from their privately-held molecules, that the eternal scourge of negative externalities has been eliminated by Ron Paul's aura, and that free riding is unpossible because of an a priori conjecture von Mises once scribbled?

/asking for a friend
 
2013-05-27 03:30:27 AM
ChaosStar:
You're a special kind of stupid aren't you?

I know, I know, it's called staying awake in grade 2 health class. I'm such a lost cause because I refused to pay for "Natural cures THEY don't want you to know about" and relying on such junky, unreliable sources like Health Canada...

Ignore all the research and science showing raw milk contains more nutrients and vitamins than pasteurized.

 so? Raw ANYTHING contains more nutrients than cooked, Beakman. Humans don't cook food to make it more nutritious, they cook it to LIVE LONGER. (Jesus, fark, I have to EXPLAIN THIS?!?!) Heat. Kills. Germs. uhh...duh?! Eat a balanced farking diet like you're supposed to, get ample nutrients. Who knew?! Magic! Spooky! If your diet is so unbalanced that you need raw milk to get healthy, guess what: YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!

Ignore the fact that few people out of the many that drink raw milk get sick.

you know what's better than few...?!?! HOW ABOUT NONE! Health care, you may be surprised to learn, being from a country where everything is profit driven, is about prevention as much as treatment.

Ignore that the government is telling you what you can and can't ingest for your dietary pleasure and survival.

American problem is American...cry me a river. It's not my fault good government isn't a tenet of your society. Quit voting for idiots in the pockets of corporate interests. Oh wait...no, if you voted for anyone who stood what you actually believed in, you'd be "throwing your vote away."

No, it's just bad because they did it a really really long time ago.

No, it's bad because it's disease inducing, a hazard to public health, full of feces and harmful bacteria, and being touted as the latest placebo by patently evil snake oil salesmen who prey on the desperate and the vulnerable. It's STUPID that people like you think that it must be inherently good because it's old.

Rawr! old stuff bad!!!!
moran


And I love you too, sweet cheeks. I'll make sure to bring you chocolates when you're shiatting yourself to death in an iron lung whilst you die of polio when you're 50.

RanDomino:
That's an even WORSE argument than the "for your safety" argument. We have to ban some people from using something... because OTHER people might get confused? Okay, so it's not about ME being stupid, it's about THEM being stupid? If you explain the truth to people and they STILL disagree, it's still their right to be stupid.

You missed the point, namely that "the truth" gets twisted and wormed around by thieves and charlatans attempting to make a buck off the vulnerable. See also: Homeopathy. Ear Candles. You're really telling me you don't have a grandma or a stubborn grandfather who reads these patent bald-faced LIES about the alleged "benefits" and suddenly reFUSES to listen to reason? Possibly because they're clinging to false hopes? Sorry for giving a shiat. I will remember to put them on the cart next week.
 
2013-05-27 03:41:45 AM

SirMadness: You missed the point, namely that "the truth" gets twisted and wormed around by thieves and charlatans attempting to make a buck off the vulnerable. See also: Homeopathy. Ear Candles. You're really telling me you don't have a grandma or a stubborn grandfather who reads these patent bald-faced LIES about the alleged "benefits" and suddenly reFUSES to listen to reason? Possibly because they're clinging to false hopes? Sorry for giving a shiat. I will remember to put them on the cart next week.


So your entire argument is based on "fake stuff is bad" so raw milk is bad too.  

I'm curious if you can substantiate this ... uh... claim of yours.  Can you show an example of huksters selling raw milk on any scale that accounts for more than 1% of users?

Are there people claiming false things about just about any given topic.  Yes, as an example there is a farker claiming that homeopathy and raw milk are both similar scams.

I can't decide if you are a world class moron or not.

Humans don't cook food to make it more nutritious, they cook it to LIVE LONGER.
So ... vegetables

I just refuted your logic with a potato.

/can you count that high?
 
2013-05-27 04:05:58 AM

underwhere: We're also the only species to drive cars and that's not natural so let's stop. Oh and forget the internet. No other animal has that so let's just shut it down.


And cars aren't living beings who get "milked" by "people like you".... I mean, I like drinking milk and I don't really care about the issue, but really man, come on.
 
2013-05-27 04:12:32 AM

Sharksfan: I go a whole different route on this one.

Milk is gross and I don't drink it.  Seriously...why on earthy would you want to drink another animals milk?

Total hypocrite disclaimer: I love cheese....


So you're your morally opposed to consuming it but only until it gets all fermented and stinky and whatnot. You must have an interesting sex life.
 
2013-05-27 04:20:16 AM

Carth: The risks really aren't as great as some people claim. Around 200 people got sick from raw milk/cheese in 2002 (last year i could find data for) most at risk are kids and immunocompromised. When you consider 48 million people in the US every year have some foodborne illness it seems foolish so many states regulate raw cheese/milk


I think I would have voted about how the jury did too, and I think the guy should get probation instead of jail or a big fine, but its hard to bring out the "only 200 people got sick" thing as an argument for legalization when a major reason only 200 people got sick from it is its illegality.
 
2013-05-27 07:07:11 AM

ghostfacekillahrabbit: Carth: The risks really aren't as great as some people claim. Around 200 people got sick from raw milk/cheese in 2002 (last year i could find data for) most at risk are kids and immunocompromised. When you consider 48 million people in the US every year have some foodborne illness it seems foolish so many states regulate raw cheese/milk

I think I would have voted about how the jury did too, and I think the guy should get probation instead of jail or a big fine, but its hard to bring out the "only 200 people got sick" thing as an argument for legalization when a major reason only 200 people got sick from it is its illegality.


As I pointed out the CDC estimates about 3% of people drink raw milk (around 9 million people) in the US and it is also drunk in most of Europe. The percent of people who get sick drinking raw milk is so incredibly low it is ridiculous it is banned in so many states while alcohol, cigarettes and trans fats are all legals for most adults.

I don't have a problem if people hate raw milk and think it is stupid for others to drink it but when people argue that it needs to be banned because it places too big a strain on our healthcare system or it is inherently unhealthy the data just doesn't back that up.
 
2013-05-27 08:35:29 AM
I don't buy the whole counter-argument to "its your body" that suggests others pay the healthcare cost, therefore your actions should be restricted. If indeed that were true, far more things would need to be made illegal, such as consumption of more than necessary sugars daily or use of cancer causing chemicals in food. These things are perfectly legal and I rarely see one making an argument for their taxation or illegalization while also maintaining an argument for taxation/illegalization of products such as raw milk.

/consistency is important
//if raw milk is illegal because it "burdens the healthcare/welfare system" then processed foods should also be illegal
///japan has a fat tax
 
2013-05-27 10:08:36 AM

rewind2846: RanDomino: rewind2846
Hey morans... THAT'S THEIR JOB.

The FDA has a right to its opinion and its findings should be taken under advisement.
People should still have the right to disregard that opinion.

"Opinion?" What you have is an "opinion". What they have is "science". Unless you're a "scientist" who specializes in food borne pathogens and disease, an "opinion" is all it will be.
Me, I tend to believe in science, and don't get my panties in a knot because the scientists happen to work for the US government.
People don't have the right to strain our overburdened medical system and spread disease amongst the rest of the populace because of an "opinion".


People do have the right to make informed risk decisions.  Otherwise, skateboarding, mountain climbing, smoking, not getting your daily 1 hr of exercise, not wearing 40 SPF sunscreen at all times upon leaving the house, and not wearing a fully enclosed respirator while painting would all be illegal because apparently people cannot be allowed to judge their own risk.
 
2013-05-27 10:10:05 AM

MadAzza: RanDomino: ArcadianRefugee
Law only says you can't buy it ('cos others can' sell it to you). You want it so badly, go ahead and make your own.

Have you considered stopping trying to take their freedoms

Drink!


Drink what?  It's all illegal now.
 
2013-05-27 10:59:14 AM

BarkingUnicorn: I don't understand why this case got so complicated.  If he was distributing a dangerous product, shut him down.


Like guns, cars, booze, cigarettes, red meat, or various approved-but-carcinogenic food additives?
 
2013-05-27 11:22:24 AM
SirMadness
you know what's better than few...?!?! HOW ABOUT NONE!

Perfect safety is impossible. To be deluded into thinking that it is achievable is more dangerous than to accept that it is not.

You missed the point, namely that "the truth" gets twisted and wormed around by thieves and charlatans attempting to make a buck off the vulnerable. See also: Homeopathy. Ear Candles. You're really telling me you don't have a grandma or a stubborn grandfather who reads these patent bald-faced LIES about the alleged "benefits" and suddenly reFUSES to listen to reason? Possibly because they're clinging to false hopes? Sorry for giving a shiat. I will remember to put them on the cart next week.

If they're lying then that's a problem which is disconnected from the issue of whether or not the government has the right to protect people from themselves.
I hope you're just as upset at McDonald's et al for trying to convince people that what they sell is "food". That shiat kills far more people then raw milk ever will.


ghostfacekillahrabbit
I think I would have voted about how the jury did too, and I think the guy should get probation instead of jail or a big fine, but its hard to bring out the "only 200 people got sick" thing as an argument for legalization when a major reason only 200 people got sick from it is its illegality.

It might not be inconsistent for it to be disallowed from grocery stores and other forms of mass and industrial-style distribution. Something which is regarded as dangerous should take a very intentional action to acquire, such as how raw milk purchasing requires membership in a buyer club and a trip directly to the farm.
 
2013-05-27 02:12:54 PM

duenor: All of you sheep who are actually supporting the government in this case are just.... such sheep.
It's clearly labeled, you can only get it if you explicitly join the private organization, and anyone who buys it knows EXACTLY what they are getting into. I bet they are also signing waivers.

Why are we wasting tax dollars coming after this guy?


I'm going to start a meth club then. Keep it small. Make users sign waivers. It will be good meth and the users will feel good about themselves when ingesting it. When people get sick and die, and that's not an if but a when, I will still be wrong for doing something known to be dangerous. And that's why this dude is getting heat.
 
2013-05-27 04:02:49 PM

Scrotastic Method: duenor: All of you sheep who are actually supporting the government in this case are just.... such sheep.
It's clearly labeled, you can only get it if you explicitly join the private organization, and anyone who buys it knows EXACTLY what they are getting into. I bet they are also signing waivers.

Why are we wasting tax dollars coming after this guy?

I'm going to start a meth club then. Keep it small. Make users sign waivers. It will be good meth and the users will feel good about themselves when ingesting it. When people get sick and die, and that's not an if but a when, I will still be wrong for doing something known to be dangerous. And that's why this dude is getting heat.


Quick how many people died from Raw milk in the US in the past decade. No cheating with Google just guess.
 
2013-05-27 07:44:21 PM

Scrotastic Method: duenor: All of you sheep who are actually supporting the government in this case are just.... such sheep.
It's clearly labeled, you can only get it if you explicitly join the private organization, and anyone who buys it knows EXACTLY what they are getting into. I bet they are also signing waivers.

Why are we wasting tax dollars coming after this guy?

I'm going to start a meth club then. Keep it small. Make users sign waivers. It will be good meth and the users will feel good about themselves when ingesting it. When people get sick and die, and that's not an if but a when, I will still be wrong for doing something known to be dangerous. And that's why this dude is getting heat.


did you read that last paragraph to yourself while you typed it?  did you go back and read it before you hit the "Add Comment" button and it had it make perfect sense to you?

let's just go ahead and start the tally, you did, after all, get a response... 1/10
 
2013-05-27 09:52:23 PM
Carth:
Quick how many people died from Raw milk in the US in the past decade. No cheating with Google just guess.

Not the point. If you're advocating the position that people of legal age should be able to ingest whatever they choose, regardless of what actual harm it does to them, then taking meth should be as viable as any other substance.
Any other position smacks of hipocrisy. "How many died" doesn't seem to be the issue among those who are willing to fight, in court if necessary, over "raw milk"... to them as (evidenced by this thread) its all about "mah freedumz!".
The substance in question is incidental.
 
2013-05-27 10:10:47 PM

rewind2846: Carth:
Quick how many people died from Raw milk in the US in the past decade. No cheating with Google just guess.

Not the point. If you're advocating the position that people of legal age should be able to ingest whatever they choose, regardless of what actual harm it does to them, then taking meth should be as viable as any other substance.
Any other position smacks of hipocrisy. "How many died" doesn't seem to be the issue among those who are willing to fight, in court if necessary, over "raw milk"... to them as (evidenced by this thread) its all about "mah freedumz!".
The substance in question is incidental.


Stop drinking raw milk.

Oh, you don't?

Hmmm.

Equating meth use with drinking raw milk makes you look really silly. Just so you know.
 
2013-05-27 11:53:01 PM

Carth: Quick how many people died from Raw milk in the US in the past decade. No cheating with Google just guess.


While he's working on that, what percentage of people who have used meth die of a meth overdose?
 
2013-05-28 03:15:54 AM

Carth: ghostfacekillahrabbit: Carth: The risks really aren't as great as some people claim. Around 200 people got sick from raw milk/cheese in 2002 (last year i could find data for) most at risk are kids and immunocompromised. When you consider 48 million people in the US every year have some foodborne illness it seems foolish so many states regulate raw cheese/milk

I think I would have voted about how the jury did too, and I think the guy should get probation instead of jail or a big fine, but its hard to bring out the "only 200 people got sick" thing as an argument for legalization when a major reason only 200 people got sick from it is its illegality.

As I pointed out the CDC estimates about 3% of people drink raw milk (around 9 million people) in the US and it is also drunk in most of Europe. The percent of people who get sick drinking raw milk is so incredibly low it is ridiculous it is banned in so many states while alcohol, cigarettes and trans fats are all legals for most adults.

I don't have a problem if people hate raw milk and think it is stupid for others to drink it but when people argue that it needs to be banned because it places too big a strain on our healthcare system or it is inherently unhealthy the data just doesn't back that up


Like i said, I agree with the guy being found not guilty, and If the "200 people got sick" figure was worldwide, then I had no point at all. I'm just saying that if its a U.S. only statistic, then its a useless one, and you should discard it in order to form a more cogent argument for your position, which I don't disagree with :)
 
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