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(JSOnline)   Farmer charged with selling (can't say it - court order) is found not guilty of selling (can't say it - court order)   (jsonline.com) divider line 230
    More: Followup, Loganville, farmers, rights movement, selling, Vernon Hershberger  
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17313 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 May 2013 at 3:07 PM (46 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-26 11:46:45 PM

Frederick: Repo Man: But, freedom.

Yeah, it comes with a price that some are unwilling to pay.




Spitting on the sidewalk was banned because it spread tuberculosis. In my estimation, it is pretty near equivalent to the tradeoff between freedom and public health we have here. You are free to disagree.
 
2013-05-26 11:56:19 PM

Snarfangel: Carth: rdu_voyager: What I'd like is is some irradiated non-homogenized milk. Kill to bacteria without heat and as otherwise unprocessed as possible.

Low-temperature vat pasteurization is the term you'd want to look for. It actually tastes very similar to raw milk but is harder to find.

No way! I want one of these things:
[uw-food-irradiation.engr.wisc.edu image 541x290]



So I looked at that UW food irradiation page that that image came from, and according to them the process isn't approved for milk, so it's moot.

But even if you could, that thing in the picture looks like a $1.5 to $2million project. In comparison a couple batch pasteurization tanks could probably be installed for around 1/10th the cost.
 
2013-05-26 11:59:48 PM

RanDomino: my herniated disc I wonder if the risk of contamination is inherent in raw milk or if it is the process of milking or storage that contaminates it? If I had my own cow that I hand milked and drank the milk within a day would there still be a risk of illness? I was raised on such raw milk and we never got ill so I wonder... Partially inherent, partially a matter of udders being smeared with cow shiat, so if any of that gets into the bottles then without pasteurization... yeah. The reason you never got ill is because it takes a little while for the harmful bacteria to multiply to a dangerous level. In an industrial agricultural system, that point can be reached before the milk even hits the grocery store shelves- between waiting for it to be picked up, processing and packaging, transportation, and stocking. And then it could sit on the shelf for a few days before being bought, and then another few days at home before it gets drank. Two weeks is really pushing it for raw milk. But drinking it with a few days or a week is generally safe, assuming the producer is careful to keep everything clean on their end (which a consumer would be a fool to not inspect for themselves periodically). I also heard that some people that are allergic to pasteurised milk but can drink raw milk fine. It supposedly contains bacteria which can break down lactic acid. Those bacteria are killed in pasteurization. I don't know if it's true but that's the argument. Repo Man The organism is easily transmitted from person to person and has been difficult to control in child day-care centers. Maybe you should read the rest of the article Transmission is via the fecal-oral route ... Infection with E. coli O157:H7 follows ingestion of contaminated food or water, or oral contact with contaminated surfaces Oh, wow, you shouldn't have contact with human shiat! This is a totally new development and, I'm sure, a shock to all. I mean, it must be totally safe to eat the shiat of a person as lo ...


So, just don't eat shiat and you're ok? Is that really what you're gonna go with? We are talking about very tiny amounts.

Infections start when you swallow STEC-in other words, when you get tiny (usually invisible) amounts of human or animal feces in your mouth. Unfortunately, this happens more often than we would like to think about. Exposures that result in illness include consumption of contaminated food, consumption of unpasteurized (raw) milk, consumption of water that has not been disinfected, contact with cattle, or contact with the feces of infected people. Some foods are considered to carry such a high risk of infection with E. coli O157 or another germ that health officials recommend that people avoid them completely. These foods include unpasteurized (raw) milk, unpasteurized apple cider, and soft cheeses made from raw milk. Sometimes the contact is pretty obvious (working with cows at a dairy or changing diapers, for example), but sometimes it is not (like eating an undercooked hamburger or a contaminated piece of lettuce). People have gotten infected by swallowing lake water while swimming, touching the environment in petting zoos and other animal exhibits, and by eating food prepared by people who did not wash their hands well after using the toilet. Almost everyone has some risk of infection.
How are these infections spread?
 
2013-05-27 12:08:53 AM

Repo Man: Frederick: Repo Man: But, freedom.

Yeah, it comes with a price that some are unwilling to pay.

Spitting on the sidewalk was banned because it spread tuberculosis. In my estimation, it is pretty near equivalent to the tradeoff between freedom and public health we have here. You are free to disagree.


Am I?  Because it seems like I'm not according to the FDA.
 
2013-05-27 12:12:54 AM

RanDomino: It supposedly contains bacteria which can break down lactic acid. Those bacteria are killed in pasteurization. I don't know if it's true but that's the argument.



I think you mean lactose, and I think that the benefit would have to come from giving these good bugs a home in your GI tract.

If they ate all the lactose before you got around to drinking it you'd have a random cultured milk product. Maybe something like yogurt or cultured buttermilk if you're lucky, or spoiled milk if you're not.
 
2013-05-27 12:21:18 AM

SN1987a goes boom: Somaticasual: Folks, you can chance raw milk if you really want to feel different or ultra-organic.
But really - there's a very good reason pasteurization was a breakthrough: people dying or getting ridiculously sick from illnesses caused by, wait for it - raw milk.  The FDA didn't ban its sale to piss off the hippies - it banned it in the interest of public health.

I can't believe people are stupid enough to not know this.  I mean, its like boiling contaminated water.  This is basic.


Which btw is only somewhat effective and doesn't kill some of the sporulating and it cyst producing species of bacteria/parasites
 
2013-05-27 12:28:37 AM
Repo Man
So, just don't eat shiat and you're ok? Is that really what you're gonna go with? We are talking about very tiny amounts.

No one has yet cited a case where raw milk actually caused one of these dreaded day care e. coli outbreaks, just told a scary story about what could hypothetically happen. What exactly is the risk to others according to you? .^A%? .0000001%? Anyone who really wants raw milk probably can already get it, so if it's so terrible why hasn't everyone in the world died of projectile diarrhea?
 
2013-05-27 01:04:22 AM

my herniated disc: Carth: If you've never had raw milk before you're missing out. The stuff tastes delicious and will make normal store bought milk seem undrinkable after  a few weeks.

indeed. Raw milk tastes amazing.

I wonder if the risk of contamination is inherent in raw milk or if it is the process of milking or storage that contaminates it? If I had my own cow that I hand milked and drank the milk within a day would there still be a risk of illness?
I was raised on such raw milk and we never got ill so I wonder...

I also heard that some people that are allergic to pasteurised milk but can drink raw milk fine.


The science points to the fact that if you are raised on such products as raw milk, and no major contamination happens, you will be just fine.

In simple terms, if your body is adjusted to the organisms in natural milk, they aren't dangerous to you.  The same thing goes for treated milk.  If you were to abstain from dairy for many years and then drink some milk (any kind) it's likely to not agree with you very much.  Of course, the same is true of steak and many other foods.
 
2013-05-27 01:19:23 AM

Somaticasual: Folks, you can chance raw milk if you really want to feel different or ultra-organic.
But really - there's a very good reason pasteurization was a breakthrough: people dying or getting ridiculously sick from illnesses caused by, wait for it - raw milk.  The FDA didn't ban its sale to piss off the hippies - it banned it in the interest of public health.


Fascist.
 
2013-05-27 01:37:21 AM
Considering measles is making a comeback because fools won't vaccinate their kids and there are drug resistant TB strains to be had, I'm about sure any herd benefits we enjoy from general standards of sanitation are quite strained. To the bursting point, in fact. 25 years ago, I occasionally enjoyed a little raw goat milk but with all the anti vaccine types spreading diseases, I wouldn't chance it now. An animal looks healthy while it's contagious and a significant portion of our population refuses to prevent disease by vaccines.  Bet me these are the same guy's with cows and goats for your raw milk drinking. So Bubba gets exposed to something a thinking person would have a shot for, passes it t opp his goat, who is not up on vaccine either, and then gives you all that diseased milk. The next day he breaks out in spots, but you've already given it to your untreated kids. Your doctor has maybe never seen this in real life, be cause it's supposedly rare.  Except none of you hippies get your shots and the cow doesn't either.
 
2013-05-27 01:57:43 AM

irreverend mother: Considering measles is making a comeback because fools won't vaccinate their kids and there are drug resistant TB strains to be had, I'm about sure any herd benefits we enjoy from general standards of sanitation are quite strained. To the bursting point, in fact. 25 years ago, I occasionally enjoyed a little raw goat milk but with all the anti vaccine types spreading diseases, I wouldn't chance it now. An animal looks healthy while it's contagious and a significant portion of our population refuses to prevent disease by vaccines.  Bet me these are the same guy's with cows and goats for your raw milk drinking. So Bubba gets exposed to something a thinking person would have a shot for, passes it t opp his goat, who is not up on vaccine either, and then gives you all that diseased milk. The next day he breaks out in spots, but you've already given it to your untreated kids. Your doctor has maybe never seen this in real life, be cause it's supposedly rare.  Except none of you hippies get your shots and the cow doesn't either.


Nothing hypothetical of hyperbole about that scenario.  In fact that exact scenario is why humans went extinct thousands of years ago.
 
2013-05-27 02:50:53 AM
Can someone tell me how many libertarians ITT are insisting that each life is lived a magical bubble utopia where everyone draws each liberty breath from their privately-held molecules, that the eternal scourge of negative externalities has been eliminated by Ron Paul's aura, and that free riding is unpossible because of an a priori conjecture von Mises once scribbled?

/asking for a friend
 
2013-05-27 03:30:27 AM
ChaosStar:
You're a special kind of stupid aren't you?

I know, I know, it's called staying awake in grade 2 health class. I'm such a lost cause because I refused to pay for "Natural cures THEY don't want you to know about" and relying on such junky, unreliable sources like Health Canada...

Ignore all the research and science showing raw milk contains more nutrients and vitamins than pasteurized.

 so? Raw ANYTHING contains more nutrients than cooked, Beakman. Humans don't cook food to make it more nutritious, they cook it to LIVE LONGER. (Jesus, fark, I have to EXPLAIN THIS?!?!) Heat. Kills. Germs. uhh...duh?! Eat a balanced farking diet like you're supposed to, get ample nutrients. Who knew?! Magic! Spooky! If your diet is so unbalanced that you need raw milk to get healthy, guess what: YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!

Ignore the fact that few people out of the many that drink raw milk get sick.

you know what's better than few...?!?! HOW ABOUT NONE! Health care, you may be surprised to learn, being from a country where everything is profit driven, is about prevention as much as treatment.

Ignore that the government is telling you what you can and can't ingest for your dietary pleasure and survival.

American problem is American...cry me a river. It's not my fault good government isn't a tenet of your society. Quit voting for idiots in the pockets of corporate interests. Oh wait...no, if you voted for anyone who stood what you actually believed in, you'd be "throwing your vote away."

No, it's just bad because they did it a really really long time ago.

No, it's bad because it's disease inducing, a hazard to public health, full of feces and harmful bacteria, and being touted as the latest placebo by patently evil snake oil salesmen who prey on the desperate and the vulnerable. It's STUPID that people like you think that it must be inherently good because it's old.

Rawr! old stuff bad!!!!
moran


And I love you too, sweet cheeks. I'll make sure to bring you chocolates when you're shiatting yourself to death in an iron lung whilst you die of polio when you're 50.

RanDomino:
That's an even WORSE argument than the "for your safety" argument. We have to ban some people from using something... because OTHER people might get confused? Okay, so it's not about ME being stupid, it's about THEM being stupid? If you explain the truth to people and they STILL disagree, it's still their right to be stupid.

You missed the point, namely that "the truth" gets twisted and wormed around by thieves and charlatans attempting to make a buck off the vulnerable. See also: Homeopathy. Ear Candles. You're really telling me you don't have a grandma or a stubborn grandfather who reads these patent bald-faced LIES about the alleged "benefits" and suddenly reFUSES to listen to reason? Possibly because they're clinging to false hopes? Sorry for giving a shiat. I will remember to put them on the cart next week.
 
2013-05-27 03:41:45 AM

SirMadness: You missed the point, namely that "the truth" gets twisted and wormed around by thieves and charlatans attempting to make a buck off the vulnerable. See also: Homeopathy. Ear Candles. You're really telling me you don't have a grandma or a stubborn grandfather who reads these patent bald-faced LIES about the alleged "benefits" and suddenly reFUSES to listen to reason? Possibly because they're clinging to false hopes? Sorry for giving a shiat. I will remember to put them on the cart next week.


So your entire argument is based on "fake stuff is bad" so raw milk is bad too.  

I'm curious if you can substantiate this ... uh... claim of yours.  Can you show an example of huksters selling raw milk on any scale that accounts for more than 1% of users?

Are there people claiming false things about just about any given topic.  Yes, as an example there is a farker claiming that homeopathy and raw milk are both similar scams.

I can't decide if you are a world class moron or not.

Humans don't cook food to make it more nutritious, they cook it to LIVE LONGER.
So ... vegetables

I just refuted your logic with a potato.

/can you count that high?
 
2013-05-27 04:05:58 AM

underwhere: We're also the only species to drive cars and that's not natural so let's stop. Oh and forget the internet. No other animal has that so let's just shut it down.


And cars aren't living beings who get "milked" by "people like you".... I mean, I like drinking milk and I don't really care about the issue, but really man, come on.
 
2013-05-27 04:12:32 AM

Sharksfan: I go a whole different route on this one.

Milk is gross and I don't drink it.  Seriously...why on earthy would you want to drink another animals milk?

Total hypocrite disclaimer: I love cheese....


So you're your morally opposed to consuming it but only until it gets all fermented and stinky and whatnot. You must have an interesting sex life.
 
2013-05-27 04:20:16 AM

Carth: The risks really aren't as great as some people claim. Around 200 people got sick from raw milk/cheese in 2002 (last year i could find data for) most at risk are kids and immunocompromised. When you consider 48 million people in the US every year have some foodborne illness it seems foolish so many states regulate raw cheese/milk


I think I would have voted about how the jury did too, and I think the guy should get probation instead of jail or a big fine, but its hard to bring out the "only 200 people got sick" thing as an argument for legalization when a major reason only 200 people got sick from it is its illegality.
 
2013-05-27 07:07:11 AM

ghostfacekillahrabbit: Carth: The risks really aren't as great as some people claim. Around 200 people got sick from raw milk/cheese in 2002 (last year i could find data for) most at risk are kids and immunocompromised. When you consider 48 million people in the US every year have some foodborne illness it seems foolish so many states regulate raw cheese/milk

I think I would have voted about how the jury did too, and I think the guy should get probation instead of jail or a big fine, but its hard to bring out the "only 200 people got sick" thing as an argument for legalization when a major reason only 200 people got sick from it is its illegality.


As I pointed out the CDC estimates about 3% of people drink raw milk (around 9 million people) in the US and it is also drunk in most of Europe. The percent of people who get sick drinking raw milk is so incredibly low it is ridiculous it is banned in so many states while alcohol, cigarettes and trans fats are all legals for most adults.

I don't have a problem if people hate raw milk and think it is stupid for others to drink it but when people argue that it needs to be banned because it places too big a strain on our healthcare system or it is inherently unhealthy the data just doesn't back that up.
 
2013-05-27 08:35:29 AM
I don't buy the whole counter-argument to "its your body" that suggests others pay the healthcare cost, therefore your actions should be restricted. If indeed that were true, far more things would need to be made illegal, such as consumption of more than necessary sugars daily or use of cancer causing chemicals in food. These things are perfectly legal and I rarely see one making an argument for their taxation or illegalization while also maintaining an argument for taxation/illegalization of products such as raw milk.

/consistency is important
//if raw milk is illegal because it "burdens the healthcare/welfare system" then processed foods should also be illegal
///japan has a fat tax
 
2013-05-27 10:08:36 AM

rewind2846: RanDomino: rewind2846
Hey morans... THAT'S THEIR JOB.

The FDA has a right to its opinion and its findings should be taken under advisement.
People should still have the right to disregard that opinion.

"Opinion?" What you have is an "opinion". What they have is "science". Unless you're a "scientist" who specializes in food borne pathogens and disease, an "opinion" is all it will be.
Me, I tend to believe in science, and don't get my panties in a knot because the scientists happen to work for the US government.
People don't have the right to strain our overburdened medical system and spread disease amongst the rest of the populace because of an "opinion".


People do have the right to make informed risk decisions.  Otherwise, skateboarding, mountain climbing, smoking, not getting your daily 1 hr of exercise, not wearing 40 SPF sunscreen at all times upon leaving the house, and not wearing a fully enclosed respirator while painting would all be illegal because apparently people cannot be allowed to judge their own risk.
 
2013-05-27 10:10:05 AM

MadAzza: RanDomino: ArcadianRefugee
Law only says you can't buy it ('cos others can' sell it to you). You want it so badly, go ahead and make your own.

Have you considered stopping trying to take their freedoms

Drink!


Drink what?  It's all illegal now.
 
2013-05-27 10:59:14 AM

BarkingUnicorn: I don't understand why this case got so complicated.  If he was distributing a dangerous product, shut him down.


Like guns, cars, booze, cigarettes, red meat, or various approved-but-carcinogenic food additives?
 
2013-05-27 11:22:24 AM
SirMadness
you know what's better than few...?!?! HOW ABOUT NONE!

Perfect safety is impossible. To be deluded into thinking that it is achievable is more dangerous than to accept that it is not.

You missed the point, namely that "the truth" gets twisted and wormed around by thieves and charlatans attempting to make a buck off the vulnerable. See also: Homeopathy. Ear Candles. You're really telling me you don't have a grandma or a stubborn grandfather who reads these patent bald-faced LIES about the alleged "benefits" and suddenly reFUSES to listen to reason? Possibly because they're clinging to false hopes? Sorry for giving a shiat. I will remember to put them on the cart next week.

If they're lying then that's a problem which is disconnected from the issue of whether or not the government has the right to protect people from themselves.
I hope you're just as upset at McDonald's et al for trying to convince people that what they sell is "food". That shiat kills far more people then raw milk ever will.


ghostfacekillahrabbit
I think I would have voted about how the jury did too, and I think the guy should get probation instead of jail or a big fine, but its hard to bring out the "only 200 people got sick" thing as an argument for legalization when a major reason only 200 people got sick from it is its illegality.

It might not be inconsistent for it to be disallowed from grocery stores and other forms of mass and industrial-style distribution. Something which is regarded as dangerous should take a very intentional action to acquire, such as how raw milk purchasing requires membership in a buyer club and a trip directly to the farm.
 
2013-05-27 02:12:54 PM

duenor: All of you sheep who are actually supporting the government in this case are just.... such sheep.
It's clearly labeled, you can only get it if you explicitly join the private organization, and anyone who buys it knows EXACTLY what they are getting into. I bet they are also signing waivers.

Why are we wasting tax dollars coming after this guy?


I'm going to start a meth club then. Keep it small. Make users sign waivers. It will be good meth and the users will feel good about themselves when ingesting it. When people get sick and die, and that's not an if but a when, I will still be wrong for doing something known to be dangerous. And that's why this dude is getting heat.
 
2013-05-27 04:02:49 PM

Scrotastic Method: duenor: All of you sheep who are actually supporting the government in this case are just.... such sheep.
It's clearly labeled, you can only get it if you explicitly join the private organization, and anyone who buys it knows EXACTLY what they are getting into. I bet they are also signing waivers.

Why are we wasting tax dollars coming after this guy?

I'm going to start a meth club then. Keep it small. Make users sign waivers. It will be good meth and the users will feel good about themselves when ingesting it. When people get sick and die, and that's not an if but a when, I will still be wrong for doing something known to be dangerous. And that's why this dude is getting heat.


Quick how many people died from Raw milk in the US in the past decade. No cheating with Google just guess.
 
2013-05-27 07:44:21 PM

Scrotastic Method: duenor: All of you sheep who are actually supporting the government in this case are just.... such sheep.
It's clearly labeled, you can only get it if you explicitly join the private organization, and anyone who buys it knows EXACTLY what they are getting into. I bet they are also signing waivers.

Why are we wasting tax dollars coming after this guy?

I'm going to start a meth club then. Keep it small. Make users sign waivers. It will be good meth and the users will feel good about themselves when ingesting it. When people get sick and die, and that's not an if but a when, I will still be wrong for doing something known to be dangerous. And that's why this dude is getting heat.


did you read that last paragraph to yourself while you typed it?  did you go back and read it before you hit the "Add Comment" button and it had it make perfect sense to you?

let's just go ahead and start the tally, you did, after all, get a response... 1/10
 
2013-05-27 09:52:23 PM
Carth:
Quick how many people died from Raw milk in the US in the past decade. No cheating with Google just guess.

Not the point. If you're advocating the position that people of legal age should be able to ingest whatever they choose, regardless of what actual harm it does to them, then taking meth should be as viable as any other substance.
Any other position smacks of hipocrisy. "How many died" doesn't seem to be the issue among those who are willing to fight, in court if necessary, over "raw milk"... to them as (evidenced by this thread) its all about "mah freedumz!".
The substance in question is incidental.
 
2013-05-27 10:10:47 PM

rewind2846: Carth:
Quick how many people died from Raw milk in the US in the past decade. No cheating with Google just guess.

Not the point. If you're advocating the position that people of legal age should be able to ingest whatever they choose, regardless of what actual harm it does to them, then taking meth should be as viable as any other substance.
Any other position smacks of hipocrisy. "How many died" doesn't seem to be the issue among those who are willing to fight, in court if necessary, over "raw milk"... to them as (evidenced by this thread) its all about "mah freedumz!".
The substance in question is incidental.


Stop drinking raw milk.

Oh, you don't?

Hmmm.

Equating meth use with drinking raw milk makes you look really silly. Just so you know.
 
2013-05-27 11:53:01 PM

Carth: Quick how many people died from Raw milk in the US in the past decade. No cheating with Google just guess.


While he's working on that, what percentage of people who have used meth die of a meth overdose?
 
2013-05-28 03:15:54 AM

Carth: ghostfacekillahrabbit: Carth: The risks really aren't as great as some people claim. Around 200 people got sick from raw milk/cheese in 2002 (last year i could find data for) most at risk are kids and immunocompromised. When you consider 48 million people in the US every year have some foodborne illness it seems foolish so many states regulate raw cheese/milk

I think I would have voted about how the jury did too, and I think the guy should get probation instead of jail or a big fine, but its hard to bring out the "only 200 people got sick" thing as an argument for legalization when a major reason only 200 people got sick from it is its illegality.

As I pointed out the CDC estimates about 3% of people drink raw milk (around 9 million people) in the US and it is also drunk in most of Europe. The percent of people who get sick drinking raw milk is so incredibly low it is ridiculous it is banned in so many states while alcohol, cigarettes and trans fats are all legals for most adults.

I don't have a problem if people hate raw milk and think it is stupid for others to drink it but when people argue that it needs to be banned because it places too big a strain on our healthcare system or it is inherently unhealthy the data just doesn't back that up


Like i said, I agree with the guy being found not guilty, and If the "200 people got sick" figure was worldwide, then I had no point at all. I'm just saying that if its a U.S. only statistic, then its a useless one, and you should discard it in order to form a more cogent argument for your position, which I don't disagree with :)
 
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