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(JSOnline)   Farmer charged with selling (can't say it - court order) is found not guilty of selling (can't say it - court order)   (jsonline.com) divider line 230
    More: Followup, Loganville, farmers, rights movement, selling, Vernon Hershberger  
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17322 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 May 2013 at 3:07 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-26 03:43:26 PM  
Grew up drinking raw milk, eating fresh eggs and canning most of our veggies from the garden... Still kickin after 42 years.
 
2013-05-26 03:43:31 PM  

awalkingecho: I'm not sure either of those things require enzymes most of our bodies weren't equipped for.


As one of the third of humanity who evolved to properly digest cows milk throughout my life, it would be insulting mother nature to ignore such a clear and explicit evolutionary dietary dictate. The rapidity with which the lactese mutation has spread makes nature's verdict on humans drinking milk unequivocal: just do it.
 
2013-05-26 03:43:47 PM  

awalkingecho: underwhere: awalkingecho: Alternatively we can get around to accepting the fact that we're the only species who utilizes the milk of a mammal that isn't our own and that it's not natural, and just stop drinking EITHER.

That works too.

We're also the only species to drive cars and that's not natural so let's stop. Oh and forget the internet. No other animal has that so let's just shut it down.

I'm not sure either of those things require enzymes most of our bodies weren't equipped for. When was the last time you met someone who was intolerant of those natures?


Never been car sick, eh?
 
2013-05-26 03:43:50 PM  

awalkingecho: and sucking on the teat


Uhh, I don't know about you, dude, but I get my milk in a jug. You know that doesn't help your argument, right? And I'm gonna need to see a citation for

awalkingecho: most people in the world have an intolerance to in some degree or another.


that.
 
2013-05-26 03:43:55 PM  

t3knomanser: Carth: Around 200 people got sick from raw milk/cheese in 2002

Raw numbers are meaningless without context. Raw milk is not sold in the same volumes as processed milk.


It is legal in 28 states and just about all of Europe. 9.7 million people in the US regularly drink raw milk (if that helps put the 200 in context for you) .

Considering the level of illness in France, where raw milk and cheese are so common and you can actually but it from vending machines, is incredibly low I don't see why the US would be very different.
 
2013-05-26 03:44:32 PM  

Surpheon: he rapidity with which the lactese mutation has spread makes nature's verdict on humans drinking milk unequivocal: just do it.


I'm not sure if you understand genetics, but if you HAVE the intolerance, drinking it doesn't make it magically go away. So no. Don't 'just do it.'
 
2013-05-26 03:45:23 PM  

Dinjiin: SumoJeb: In the states why wouldn't a waiver stating that the consumer assumes the risks related to the product be more than enough? Some hippy wants dirty milk? Sure, but they assume the risks and waive their right to sue for the foreseeable health problems associated with the product.

Imagine a scenario where a head-of-household consumes raw milk, gets sick doesn't look both ways crossing the road, gets hit by a car, and then dies.  Add to that scenario a wife, several young children and little-to-no medical or life insurance.  So the wife is left with unpaid medical bills and an insufficient amount of income.  Guess who now qualifies for food stamps and welfare that the rest of Wisconsin gets to pay for?  Or you can waive their right for public assistance since dad was an idiot.  So now you have a family on the street with all of the social ills that go along with it.


BAN PEDESTRIANS!

See how easy this is?
 
2013-05-26 03:45:58 PM  
Not available for comment...

www.eqca.org
 
2013-05-26 03:46:37 PM  
cdn.twentytwowords.com
 
2013-05-26 03:46:54 PM  
I severly headshake at the raw milk bufoonery; given that, I still beleive that the guy deserves a fair trial. I don't sit well with the idea that a judge can ban him from raising any sort of defense.
 
2013-05-26 03:47:10 PM  

Carth: Why do you choose raw milk, something very few people actually get sick from an almost no healthy adult dies, to draw the line?


Probably because the 'slippery slope' argument only really appeals to simpletons who can't understand how those with critical thinking skills are quite capable of evaluating risk/reward in grey areas and defining limits.
 
2013-05-26 03:47:41 PM  

Mentalpatient87: awalkingecho: and sucking on the teat

Uhh, I don't know about you, dude, but I get my milk in a jug. You know that doesn't help your argument, right? And I'm gonna need to see a citation for

awalkingecho: most people in the world have an intolerance to in some degree or another.

that.


Re: teat, that's entirely irrelevant. Putting it in a plastic container doesn't magically change its chemical make up such to a point that it's magically "HUMAN APPROVED." It came from the same place, so that doesn't help YOUR argument at all.

In terms of that citation,:

Adult-type hypolactasia is characterized by a fall of lactase activity levels to 5 to 10% of birth levels occurring during childhood and adolescence. The condition affects more than 75% of the population worldwide, with regional frequencies ranging from nearly 5% in northern Europe to more than 90% in some Asian and African countries

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0100-879X200 70 01100004&lng=en&nrm=iso&tlng=en
 
2013-05-26 03:48:26 PM  

Carth: Dinjiin: SumoJeb: In the states why wouldn't a waiver stating that the consumer assumes the risks related to the product be more than enough? Some hippy wants dirty milk? Sure, but they assume the risks and waive their right to sue for the foreseeable health problems associated with the product.

Imagine a scenario where a head-of-household consumes raw milk, gets sick and then dies.  Add to that scenario a wife, several young children and little-to-no medical or life insurance.  So the wife is left with unpaid medical bills and an insufficient amount of income.  Guess who now qualifies for food stamps and welfare that the rest of Wisconsin gets to pay for?  Or you can waive their right for public assistance since dad was an idiot.  So now you have a family on the street with all of the social ills that go along with it.

We're no longer in an age where Darwin gets to throw chlorine into the gene pool of the entire family.  So it is in the interest of society that you don't completely screw the pooch by being a retard, thereby screwing things up for the rest of us.

Imagine a scenario where the head of household gets drunk and dies, smokes cigarettes an dies, eats a raw hamburger and dies, eats undercooked poultry and dies, eats too much fast food and dies...

Do you really want to ban everything that is unhealthy and may lead to increased medical costs? Why do you choose raw milk, something very few people actually get sick from an almost no healthy adult dies, to draw the line?


Probably goes w/o saying I have favorited you.
 
2013-05-26 03:48:43 PM  

Carth: It is legal in 28 states and just about all of Europe. 9.7 million people in the US regularly drink raw milk (if that helps put the 200 in context for you) .


Not really. We have to go by volume measures, here. What's the disease rate per gallon?

Carth: the level of illness in France...

 is incredibly low

Is it?
 
2013-05-26 03:49:12 PM  

awalkingecho: Surpheon: he rapidity with which the lactese mutation has spread makes nature's verdict on humans drinking milk unequivocal: just do it.

I'm not sure if you understand genetics, but if you HAVE the intolerance, drinking it doesn't make it magically go away. So no. Don't 'just do it.'


"As one of the third of humanity who evolved to properly digest cows milk throughout my life, it would be insulting mother nature to ignore such a clear and explicit evolutionary dietary dictate. The rapidity with which the lactese mutation has spread makes nature's verdict on humans drinking milk unequivocal: just do it."

I'm not sure if you understand English, but...
 
2013-05-26 03:49:43 PM  

awalkingecho: Alternatively we can get around to accepting the fact that we're the only species who utilizes the milk of a mammal that isn't our own and that it's not natural, and just stop drinking EITHER.

That works too.


Hint: Humans are a part of nature, and hence by definition anything we do is natural.
And your basic point is erroneous as well. There are wild animals who have been caught drinking milk from the teats of domesticated animals like goats and dairy cows. The only reason why no other animals do this is because they don't have the intelligence to systematically keep other animals lactating past the weaning of their young. We adapt the world to suit our needs, from domesticating other animals and plants to reshaping the landscape. And we do so because we are naturally evolved to do so.nHumans can't digest milk on their own, yet many of us have gut bacteria specifically evolved to help us digest it. That by itself shows that it is indeed natural. We have co-evolved with other species to be able to drink it. Why do you hate our natural intestinal flora and fauna? Why do you hate what we naturally have become and try to make us into something that we are not?
 
2013-05-26 03:50:41 PM  
I don't understand the headline.
 
2013-05-26 03:50:51 PM  

Carth: t3knomanser: Carth: Around 200 people got sick from raw milk/cheese in 2002

Raw numbers are meaningless without context. Raw milk is not sold in the same volumes as processed milk.

It is legal in 28 states and just about all of Europe. 9.7 million people in the US regularly drink raw milk (if that helps put the 200 in context for you) .

Considering the level of illness in France, where raw milk and cheese are so common and you can actually but it from vending machines, is incredibly low I don't see why the US would be very different.


Just to let you know, from someone that lives in France, you won't find raw milk to drink. While legal it is specifically reserved for making cheese.
/au lait cru
//good, good, cheese
 
2013-05-26 03:51:58 PM  

awalkingecho: Re: teat, that's entirely irrelevant.


So we can agree that bringing up the delivery method of the milk is just emotional bullshiat thrown in that doesn't relate to the argument, good.

BolloxReader: And your basic point is erroneous as well. There are wild animals who have been caught drinking milk from the teats of domesticated animals like goats and dairy cows. The only reason why no other animals do this is because they don't have the intelligence to systematically keep other animals lactating past the weaning of their young. We adapt the world to suit our needs, from domesticating other animals and plants to reshaping the landscape. And we do so because we are naturally evolved to do so.nHumans can't digest milk on their own, yet many of us have gut bacteria specifically evolved to help us digest it. That by itself shows that it is indeed natural. We have co-evolved with other species to be able to drink it. Why do you hate our natural intestinal flora and fauna? Why do you hate what we naturally have become and try to make us into something that we are not?


And what he said.
 
2013-05-26 03:52:38 PM  

Sim Tree: I severly headshake at the raw milk bufoonery; given that, I still beleive that the guy deserves a fair trial. I don't sit well with the idea that a judge can ban him from raising any sort of defense.


I think for a crime of this magnitude, a severe headshake alone won't do it.  You'll need at least a finger waggle and a harrumph.
 
2013-05-26 03:54:48 PM  
But many people believe that unprocessed milk, straight from the farm, contains bacteria that boost the immune system and have other beneficial properties.

This really sounds like a problem that's going to take care of itself.
 
2013-05-26 03:55:17 PM  

TenJed_77: Carth: t3knomanser: Carth: Around 200 people got sick from raw milk/cheese in 2002

Raw numbers are meaningless without context. Raw milk is not sold in the same volumes as processed milk.

It is legal in 28 states and just about all of Europe. 9.7 million people in the US regularly drink raw milk (if that helps put the 200 in context for you) .

Considering the level of illness in France, where raw milk and cheese are so common and you can actually but it from vending machines, is incredibly low I don't see why the US would be very different.

Just to let you know, from someone that lives in France, you won't find raw milk to drink. While legal it is specifically reserved for making cheese.
/au lait cru
//good, good, cheese


I was in Reignier-Esery last week and bought some for 1€  a liter... What part of the country are you in? It was really easy to get in Paris and Nice too.
 
2013-05-26 03:55:48 PM  

Xcott: But many people believe that unprocessed milk, straight from the farm, contains bacteria that boost the immune system and have other beneficial properties.

This really sounds like a problem that's going to take care of itself.


Until they get sick with shiat the rest of us have no immunity to.
 
2013-05-26 03:56:32 PM  
this is america! contracting food-borne illnesses isn't a privilege it is a right!

www.jimbo.info
 
2013-05-26 03:56:47 PM  

awalkingecho: Surpheon: he rapidity with which the lactese mutation has spread makes nature's verdict on humans drinking milk unequivocal: just do it.

I'm not sure if you understand genetics, but if you HAVE the intolerance, drinking it doesn't make it magically go away. So no. Don't 'just do it.'


Good thing he never said that then.
 
2013-05-26 03:57:07 PM  
The only logical solution to this problem is to have a milk woman in every kitchen whose sole purpose is to expose her teats and provide fresh milk
 
2013-05-26 04:03:32 PM  

thisiszombocom: The only logical solution to this problem is to have a milk woman in every kitchen whose sole purpose is to expose her teats and provide fresh milk


Dibs on Scarlett Johansson
 
2013-05-26 04:04:39 PM  

Carth: too.


C'est ne pas du lait "cru" que vous avez acheter, sauf si le bouteille avait un bouchon jaune. Ce que est très rare en dehors les régions du production.
Il doit être consumer en moins de 3 jours, pour l'info ca fait 17 ans que je habite ici. Est ca se trouve vraiment pas partout, est pour le plupart c'est ne jamais du lait cru.
 
2013-05-26 04:05:28 PM  
Raw milk needs to be illegal because you can't trust morons not to feed it to their kids.

We need to outlaw Jesus for the same reason.
 
2013-05-26 04:06:26 PM  

jalora: Raw milk needs to be illegal because you can't trust morons not to feed it to their kids.


I was just going to say "What's wrong with letting stupid people kill themselves?" but you have a point.
 
2013-05-26 04:06:44 PM  
www.marlerblog.com
 
2013-05-26 04:08:19 PM  

thisiszombocom: The only logical solution to this problem is to have a milk woman in every kitchen whose sole purpose is to expose her teats and provide fresh milk


Are any of the "Sports by Brooke" gals interested in donating?

/yeah, you know who I mean
 
2013-05-26 04:08:38 PM  

BolloxReader: There are wild animals who have been caught drinking milk from the teats of domesticated animals like goats and dairy cows. The only reason why no other animals do this is because they don't have the intelligence to systematically keep other animals lactating past the weaning of their young.


The proper evolutionary development for a mammal is to develop lactose intolerance as it ages. This is part of the weaning process. If there were no weaning process you'd have some pretty screwed up herds of animals with each sibling continuing to suckle through adulthood, and its siblings suckling it.
 
2013-05-26 04:10:39 PM  

MelGoesOnTour: thisiszombocom: The only logical solution to this problem is to have a milk woman in every kitchen whose sole purpose is to expose her teats and provide fresh milk

Are any of the "Sports by Brooke" gals interested in donating?

/yeah, you know who I mean


Oops, misspelled "Brooks". Whatever. Take your pick:

http://www.sportsbybrooks.com/tag/sbb_girls
 
2013-05-26 04:10:51 PM  
When I was a kid we had raw milk delivered right to our door twice a week.  No one ever got sick from it.  Think of it as the shellfish of dairy products.  Don't leave it sitting out and don't be stupid.
 
2013-05-26 04:11:10 PM  

ImpendingCynic: If it would only be about people poisoning themselves, I wouldn't really care. But what's to stop an unscrupulous milk producer from mixing in a little raw milk to save the pasteurization costs? Or someone who sells a dairy-based item from a roadside stand forgetting to mention that they used raw milk.


What stops them now?
Adulterating a product is quite different from selling one properly labeled that may carry risks.
 
2013-05-26 04:11:35 PM  

Pockafrusta: Grew up drinking raw milk, eating fresh eggs and canning most of our veggies from the garden... Still kickin after 42 years.


Interesting. Would you say you're more resistant to infections than other people around you, or was it the "standard" amount of colds you got throughout your life?
 
2013-05-26 04:11:46 PM  
Carth:

The risks really aren't as great as some people claim. Around 200 people got sick from raw milk/cheese in 2002 (last year i could find data for) most at risk are kids and immunocompromised. When you consider 48 million people in the US every year have some foodborne illness it seems foolish so many states regulate raw cheese/milk

And can you guess why only 200 or so people got sick? BECAUSE THE OTHERS DRANK PASTEURIZED MILK.
Extrapolate how many more would get ill if everyone drank that sh*t.

Many more people got sick before Louis found his little trick. It's not foolish that something so simple as a little heat could prevent so much misery, and that's why states regulate dairy products. Why don't we stop immunizing children or let manufacturers of sleepwear use all the flammable materials they want? Let's put those hard metal dashboards and spikey spoked metal steering wheels back into cars again!

Before labeling something as "foolish", why not look into the history of why it exists?
 
2013-05-26 04:12:21 PM  

Carth: t3knomanser: Carth: Around 200 people got sick from raw milk/cheese in 2002

Raw numbers are meaningless without context. Raw milk is not sold in the same volumes as processed milk.

It is legal in 28 states and just about all of Europe. 9.7 million people in the US regularly drink raw milk (if that helps put the 200 in context for you) .

Considering the level of illness in France, where raw milk and cheese are so common and you can actually but it from vending machines, is incredibly low I don't see why the US would be very different.


Europe's food supply chain is inherently safer than the US. The US supply chain, as regulated by the USDA and FDA, is based upon the principle that all food will be properly processed and stabilized before being consumed. You can dump raw eggs all over raw hamburger in Europe and nobody would bat an eye. In the US, that is like playing Russian roulette with your guts. The regulatory standards here are built around factory farms and large processing plants, not small craft farms. You can't have two sets of standards in one marketplace so we have to go with the one that is geared toward the dangerous players who provide the bulk of the food, not the craft farmers who may be able to provide safer food. In other words, if you want to eat like that you either have to form your own self-contained food supply or go somewhere that isn't dominated by the same industrial approach to food that we have in the US. Any exceptions to the food safety rules would be exploited by major players and result in massive outbreaks of food borne illnesses. You know that, I know that, and anyone with a brain knows that. You can't write exceptions to the laws without allowing the major players to exploit those rules, because they buy the legislation in the first place. It will be introduced by industry shills in Congress and pass because the major players are already setting up the infrastructure to take advantage of it to capture more market share. And on the local level they will force property sales to their subsidiaries by introducing zoning restrictions requiring massive capital investments, with no grandfathering clause (but they will give you 3 years to make the required changes before you are shut down). It is trivially easy to do the local market takeovers, actually, especially on something like this because it won't be high profile. It will be like that insurance company that is forcing the battered women's shelter in Cincinnati to sell to them, despite the location being the best suited for women to reach. Or they could do it through eminent domain, buying the cooperation of the local authorities to hand them the land as I saw in Indianapolis several times.

George Carlin was right about us having owners and the only way to have any chance at some veneer of safety is to not give them loopholes or exemptions to exploit. Otherwise we become China.
 
2013-05-26 04:13:07 PM  

Dinjiin: SumoJeb: In the states why wouldn't a waiver stating that the consumer assumes the risks related to the product be more than enough? Some hippy wants dirty milk? Sure, but they assume the risks and waive their right to sue for the foreseeable health problems associated with the product.

Imagine a scenario where a head-of-household consumes raw milk, gets sick and then dies.  Add to that scenario a wife, several young children and little-to-no medical or life insurance.  So the wife is left with unpaid medical bills and an insufficient amount of income.  Guess who now qualifies for food stamps and welfare that the rest of Wisconsin gets to pay for?  Or you can waive their right for public assistance since dad was an idiot.  So now you have a family on the street with all of the social ills that go along with it.

We're no longer in an age where Darwin gets to throw chlorine into the gene pool of the entire family.  So it is in the interest of society that you don't completely screw the pooch by being a retard, thereby screwing things up for the rest of us.


What other things can the government ban in order to keep the head of household from dying?  I guess he can forget about that hiking trip he had planned, and no more sky diving.  He's the head of a household and the government is authorized to curtail his freedom so that he continues to provide for his family.
 
2013-05-26 04:13:43 PM  

Xcott: But many people believe that unprocessed milk, straight from the farm, contains bacteria that boost the immune system and have other beneficial properties.

This really sounds like a problem that's going to take care of itself.


You're anti-gun AND anti-raw milk? Wanna go for the trifecta?
 
2013-05-26 04:13:46 PM  
I had to have my wife translate for me (she's the french one) but we usually get our milk/cheese from Fromagerie Pascal Beillevaire. It was yellow capped and labeled Lait Cru so I'm assuming it is raw.

My mouth is watering now just thinking about the cheeses.
 
2013-05-26 04:13:47 PM  
Milk is homogenized and pasteurized to keep you safe.

If you ever fought your siblings for dibs on the delicious creamy top of the bottle of milk back in the day you'll remember that mom took the bottle before there was bloodshed.
 
2013-05-26 04:14:43 PM  

Mentalpatient87: awalkingecho: and sucking on the teat

Uhh, I don't know about you, dude, but I get my milk in a jug. You know that doesn't help your argument, right? And I'm gonna need to see a citation for
......


Teat.  Jug.  Whatever.  ;)
 
2013-05-26 04:15:35 PM  

rewind2846: Carth:

The risks really aren't as great as some people claim. Around 200 people got sick from raw milk/cheese in 2002 (last year i could find data for) most at risk are kids and immunocompromised. When you consider 48 million people in the US every year have some foodborne illness it seems foolish so many states regulate raw cheese/milk

And can you guess why only 200 or so people got sick? BECAUSE THE OTHERS DRANK PASTEURIZED MILK.
Extrapolate how many more would get ill if everyone drank that sh*t.

Many more people got sick before Louis found his little trick. It's not foolish that something so simple as a little heat could prevent so much misery, and that's why states regulate dairy products. Why don't we stop immunizing children or let manufacturers of sleepwear use all the flammable materials they want? Let's put those hard metal dashboards and spikey spoked metal steering wheels back into cars again!

Before labeling something as "foolish", why not look into the history of why it exists?


9 million people regularly drink raw milk in the US and 200 got sick. Those are pretty good odds and better than the numbers for medium rare beef.
 
2013-05-26 04:15:39 PM  

Somaticasual: Folks, you can chance raw milk if you really want to feel different or ultra-organic.
But really - there's a very good reason pasteurization was a breakthrough: people dying or getting ridiculously sick from illnesses caused by, wait for it - raw milk.  The FDA didn't ban its sale to piss off the hippies - it banned it in the interest of public health.


I say lift the ban on raw milk sales and let people take their lives into their own hands,  Just make people sign a consent form and let them have at it.
 
2013-05-26 04:17:27 PM  

jalora: Raw milk needs to be illegal because you can't trust morons not to feed it to their kids.


Good.  It will mean fewer stupid kids growing up into stupid adults.
 
2013-05-26 04:18:57 PM  

jalora: Raw milk hamburger meat needs to be illegal because you can't trust morons not to feed it to their kids.


FTFY
 
2013-05-26 04:19:51 PM  
As soon as I switched to raw milk, it was pretty clear my body was getting better.  I started vomiting and shiatting out all the stuff from the milk products I'd been drinking for decades.  I've lost 60 pounds in just 4 weeks, and I've been saving a lot of gas money because I'm too sick to go anywhere!  These Monsanto creeps and their Pasteurized Milk are the same idiots who keep trying to get us to use vaccines and antibiotics.  Anyone who's been on the caveman diet knows that the human body only naturally processes meat and creek water.  Next you'll be trying to get people to drink out of city water lines.
 
2013-05-26 04:20:34 PM  

awalkingecho: Alternatively we can get around to accepting the fact that we're the only species who utilizes the milk of a mammal that isn't our own and that it's not natural, and just stop drinking EITHER.

That works too.


or you could just not talk out of your ass.  that works too.
 
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