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(Kansas.com)   It turns out that the polygraph machine might have been the one that was lying   (kansas.com) divider line 150
    More: Ironic, polygraphs, Defense Intelligence Agency, scientific skepticism, Mcclatchy  
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12866 clicks; posted to Main » on 26 May 2013 at 11:24 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-26 06:28:29 AM  
I didn't think Polygraphs could still be used in court?
 
2013-05-26 07:08:21 AM  

hardinparamedic: I didn't think Polygraphs could still be used in court?


That was my understanding as well. I think they're implying police used them to eliminate suspects during an investigation.
 
2013-05-26 08:31:38 AM  

hardinparamedic: I didn't think Polygraphs could still be used in court?


Cops step up to the plate and tell lies instead.
 
2013-05-26 09:19:47 AM  
I went in for a polygraph many years ago - was going work my way through college as a deputy sheriff in the local jail.  Polygrapher said I had problems with the question around selling cocaine.  Never been near the stuff before or since.

//CSB
 
2013-05-26 09:27:46 AM  
I'm sure they are every bit as accurate as drug dogs.
 
2013-05-26 09:36:22 AM  
Not admissible in court, but as I found, they can use it in questioning/interrogation, and the results are the difference between being a suspect and being released.

I found a pair of tickets to a football game in the mens room at the hotel I worked in, and used them.  It turns out they were part of a cache of stuff stolen from a local store.  I was a dumb college kid and agreed to come in for questioning, and they asked (coerced) me to take a polygraph to "clear my name".

20 minutes later, I was told the squiggly lines told them that my denials of breaking, entering and safecracking were "a classic pattern of deception."   Looking back, it may have been a bluff to see how I reacted, to elicit a confession, but you never see find me hooked up to a polygraph ever again.
 
2013-05-26 09:46:11 AM  

Earguy: Looking back, it may have been a bluff to see how I reacted, to elicit a confession


That is exactly what polygraphs are for. They are  not meaningful evidence of deception, but people  believe that the device can detect their lies- it's sort of like a placebo effect. Someone who  is lying, and who is told that the machine has detected their lies is more likely to surrender.
 
2013-05-26 09:50:24 AM  

t3knomanser: Earguy: Looking back, it may have been a bluff to see how I reacted, to elicit a confession

That is exactly what polygraphs are for. They are  not meaningful evidence of deception, but people  believe that the device can detect their lies- it's sort of like a placebo effect. Someone who  is lying, and who is told that the machine has detected their lies is more likely to surrender.


If I'm ever in a police interrogation I'm just going to stay silent and wait for a lawyer. I get so easily frazzled by those types of situations that I'd be confessing to the Lindbergh baby kidnapping within an hour.
 
2013-05-26 09:54:26 AM  

miss diminutive: t3knomanser: Earguy: Looking back, it may have been a bluff to see how I reacted, to elicit a confession

That is exactly what polygraphs are for. They are  not meaningful evidence of deception, but people  believe that the device can detect their lies- it's sort of like a placebo effect. Someone who  is lying, and who is told that the machine has detected their lies is more likely to surrender.

If I'm ever in a police interrogation I'm just going to stay silent and wait for a lawyer. I get so easily frazzled by those types of situations that I'd be confessing to the Lindbergh baby kidnapping within an hour.


It's what I should have done, but I was a kid who couldn't afford a lawyer and I didn't want to tell my dad.
 
2013-05-26 09:57:23 AM  

miss diminutive: If I'm ever in a police interrogation I'm just going to stay silent and wait for a lawyer.


That is the only action you can take that won't make things worse for you.
 
2013-05-26 10:06:17 AM  

t3knomanser: miss diminutive: If I'm ever in a police interrogation I'm just going to stay silent and wait for a lawyer.

That is the only action you can take that won't make things worse for you.


Never trust a police officer.  I'll say it again, louder, because it bears repeating:

NEVER TRUST A POLICE OFFICER.


Their job is to clear the case, not to solve it.  They are, in majority, power-abusing, ego-maniacal assholes with the world's most stressful job, and government pays them to wear all that black leather.  On top of that, the law does not allow them to clear your name.  Ever.  Anything you say to a cop - if it can possibly be construed or even twisted to incriminate you, that's "evidence".  If it clears you, That's "hearsay" and not admissible in court.

It sucks, but that's how it works.

NEVER - EVER - TRUST A POLICE OFFICER.
 
2013-05-26 10:18:24 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: t3knomanser: miss diminutive: If I'm ever in a police interrogation I'm just going to stay silent and wait for a lawyer.

That is the only action you can take that won't make things worse for you.

Never trust a police officer.  I'll say it again, louder, because it bears repeating:

NEVER TRUST A POLICE OFFICER.

Their job is to clear the case, not to solve it.  They are, in majority, power-abusing, ego-maniacal assholes with the world's most stressful job, and government pays them to wear all that black leather.  On top of that, the law does not allow them to clear your name.  Ever.  Anything you say to a cop - if it can possibly be construed or even twisted to incriminate you, that's "evidence".  If it clears you, That's "hearsay" and not admissible in court.

It sucks, but that's how it works.

NEVER - EVER - TRUST A POLICE OFFICER.


My ex-wife worked as a victim/witness counselor in a prosecutor's office. She gave me the exact same advice. No matter if you're innocent with an iron-clad alibi, never, ever talk to the police without a lawyer. It's one of the few pieces of advice she gave me that I actually will take if I'm ever in that situation.
 
2013-05-26 10:22:16 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Their job is to clear the case, not to solve it.


This is the most important element of that. Police want to clear the case, the DA wants to close the case, and they all have the goal of putting someone in jail  as quickly as possible so they can move on to the gigantic backlog facing them.

Even if you have the ultimate Good Guy Greg of cops handling your case,  he still wants to put you in jail. He wouldn't have detained you if he didn't think he could get you into jail. Your only defense is to lawyer up. Lawyering up is not an admission of guilt. Lawyering up isn't going "to make this harder for everyone". Lawyering up makes sure the process proceeds smoothly, and it keeps your cornhole in its original factory condition.
 
2013-05-26 10:31:03 AM  
Benevolent Misanthrope:

NEVER - EVER - TRUST A POLICE OFFICER.

Another story, less about polygraphs and more about getting a lawyer.

My cousin bought some work boots at a locally-owned store, and they fell apart after only a few days' use.   He went to return them, and the owner would not accept the return.  It got a little heated, and my cousin ended up leaving angry.

A week later, the owner was shot dead in a robbery.   Two witnesses described the assailant as tall, thin, and hispanic.  Cops also asked if anyone might have a grudge or motive for murder; they recalled my angry cousin.

Short, stocky white cousin.  Still, it was easy to get his contact info off the credit card, and his ass was in the interrogation room.  Alone without a lawyer, and they're putting together a murder charge against him.  They were out to close the case, to put someone in jail.
 
2013-05-26 10:39:14 AM  
The polygraph is, and always has been a complete fraud.  It is s tool for eliciting confessions from those people that actually believe it is a "lie detector", when it isn't anything of the sort.
 
2013-05-26 10:47:12 AM  
I just submitted to one of those as part of my job. It seemed to be very dependent on you being a willing and cooperative subject. If your not those things I'm not sure how it could be anywhere close to accurate.
 
2013-05-26 10:56:11 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: t3knomanser: miss diminutive: If I'm ever in a police interrogation I'm just going to stay silent and wait for a lawyer.

That is the only action you can take that won't make things worse for you.

Never trust a police officer.  I'll say it again, louder, because it bears repeating:

NEVER TRUST A POLICE OFFICER.

Their job is to clear the case, not to solve it.  They are, in majority, power-abusing, ego-maniacal assholes with the world's most stressful job, and government pays them to wear all that black leather.  On top of that, the law does not allow them to clear your name.  Ever.  Anything you say to a cop - if it can possibly be construed or even twisted to incriminate you, that's "evidence".  If it clears you, That's "hearsay" and not admissible in court.

It sucks, but that's how it works.

NEVER - EVER - TRUST A POLICE OFFICER.


If you're arrested, you do two things.

Don't fight and resist. Don't give them a reason to kick your ass, even if you KNOW you're in the right. And don't give them any ammunition to use against you for BS.

Number two is don't say a farking word. If you're mirandized, tell them you're exercising your right to STFU. Period. Ask for your lawyer. Do not believe any promises a cop makes to you regarding charges, or dropping them. Remember, until you ask for a lawyer, they can BS you for up to 24 hours.

Also, here's a handy protip if you get pulled over or are stopped at a DUI Checkpoint: No, officer, I've had nothing but water to drink all day.
 
2013-05-26 10:59:15 AM  
And for the record, I can be  generally supportive of Law Enforcement without being entirely farking nieve.

I'd trust my life in the hands of the deputies I work with.
I'd lawyer up immediately and not say a damn word if it came down to dealing with the local city police.
 
2013-05-26 11:03:31 AM  

miss diminutive:
If I'm ever in a police interrogation I'm just going to stay silent and wait for a lawyer. I get so easily frazzled by those types of situations that I'd be confessing to the Lindbergh baby kidnapping within an hour.


This lawyer agrees. Talking to the police can not help you. There is NO WAY it can help you. His explanation as to why should be standard viewing requirement for all citizens of the United States.
 
2013-05-26 11:22:49 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: t3knomanser: miss diminutive: If I'm ever in a police interrogation I'm just going to stay silent and wait for a lawyer.

That is the only action you can take that won't make things worse for you.

Never trust a police officer.  I'll say it again, louder, because it bears repeating:

NEVER TRUST A POLICE OFFICER.

Their job is to clear the case, not to solve it.  They are, in majority, power-abusing, ego-maniacal assholes with the world's most stressful job, and government pays them to wear all that black leather.  On top of that, the law does not allow them to clear your name.  Ever.  Anything you say to a cop - if it can possibly be construed or even twisted to incriminate you, that's "evidence".  If it clears you, That's "hearsay" and not admissible in court.

It sucks, but that's how it works.

NEVER - EVER - TRUST A POLICE OFFICER.


This has been posted here before, Don't Talk to the Police.
 
2013-05-26 11:31:11 AM  
If this is the same one that Maury uses, I am going to ask for a re-do.
 
2013-05-26 11:32:02 AM  

hardinparamedic: I didn't think Polygraphs could still be used in court?


miss diminutive: hardinparamedic: I didn't think Polygraphs could still be used in court?

That was my understanding as well. I think they're implying police used them to eliminate suspects during an investigation.


My friend's brother was a sex offender and was required to take them as a condition of his probation/parole/whatever.

He failed one and committed suicide shortly afterwards, but I don't know if they were related.
 
2013-05-26 11:33:29 AM  

tenpoundsofcheese: If this is the same one that Maury uses, I am going to ask for a re-do.


If you were a guest on "Maury"; the polygraph isn't the only thing you probably need a do-over on.
 
2013-05-26 11:33:34 AM  

miss diminutive: t3knomanser: Earguy: Looking back, it may have been a bluff to see how I reacted, to elicit a confession

That is exactly what polygraphs are for. They are  not meaningful evidence of deception, but people  believe that the device can detect their lies- it's sort of like a placebo effect. Someone who  is lying, and who is told that the machine has detected their lies is more likely to surrender.

If I'm ever in a police interrogation I'm just going to stay silent and wait for a lawyer. I get so easily frazzled by those types of situations that I'd be confessing to the Lindbergh baby kidnapping within an hour.


I get so outraged when Im accused of something I didnt do that Id probably fail because the needle would be going off the chart because Im ready to choke someone for thinking I could do whatever I was accused of.
 
2013-05-26 11:37:37 AM  

Earguy: Benevolent Misanthrope:

NEVER - EVER - TRUST A POLICE OFFICER.

Another story, less about polygraphs and more about getting a lawyer.

My cousin bought some work boots at a locally-owned store, and they fell apart after only a few days' use.   He went to return them, and the owner would not accept the return.  It got a little heated, and my cousin ended up leaving angry.

A week later, the owner was shot dead in a robbery.   Two witnesses described the assailant as tall, thin, and hispanic.  Cops also asked if anyone might have a grudge or motive for murder; they recalled my angry cousin.

Short, stocky white cousin.  Still, it was easy to get his contact info off the credit card, and his ass was in the interrogation room.  Alone without a lawyer, and they're putting together a murder charge against him.  They were out to close the case, to put someone in jail.


Don't leave us hanging - what happened to your cousin?
 
2013-05-26 11:38:08 AM  
ANY result from a polygraph is inaccurate.

It's primary benefit to law enforcement is psychological in that they can dupe ignorant suspects into believing the results are accurate and can "reveal" lies, or simply intimidate them into a confession.

Other than that, lie detectiors are well-documented as merely bullshiat machines.
 
2013-05-26 11:39:50 AM  

hardinparamedic: I didn't think Polygraphs could still be used in court?


They can't, but they can be used by the cops in the course of an investigation.

TFA isn't really suggesting some legal change so much as that the use of the machines in investigations probably hurts more than it helps.  Apparently TFA is talking about an actual glitch, but there's also the issue that a stress meter doesn't really tell you much when used under conditions where basically anyone will be having stress spikes.

Not that there's a big difference to be made, since the cops already use profilers, who start out about as good at profiling as an average person guessing blindly and actually get worse with experience as their confidence builds.

Benevolent Misanthrope: NEVER - EVER - TRUST A POLICE OFFICER.


That's a bit harsh.

Trusting the cops is fine.  If you're a lost child, they'll get you back to your parents.  If you're getting mugged or robbed, they'll put up the lights and scare your assailant off, if you have a criminal complaint they'll file it for you, etc.  They're not necessarily bad at their jobs and they're no worse people on average than any other blue-collar worker you'll meet.

What you should never do is disclose any personal information to a police officer beyond your name, contact information, and current location to any police officer.  Any problem that the cops cannot solve with that much information about you is not a problem for the police.  Don't tell them where you've been, what you've been doing, or anything about anyone you've encountered.
 
2013-05-26 11:41:36 AM  
The polygraph has never been 'accurate' at anything but its intended function: measuring changes in electrical activity, blood pressure, respiration, etc.

This box has NEVER been able to 'tell when you are lying'. EVER. And they are fairly easily fooled.

Sadly, not too many folks actually know this. Although it mystifies me, personally, how they can't. FFS, they made a Mythbusters episode out of it.
 
2013-05-26 11:43:36 AM  
Best polygraph ever.
NSFW language.
 
2013-05-26 11:45:21 AM  

xaks: The polygraph has never been 'accurate' at anything but its intended function: measuring changes in electrical activity, blood pressure, respiration, etc.


Hey, now.

I got polygraphed the other day and now my aura is almost entirely free of body Thetans.  You should get polygraphed regularly or you'll have the disembodied souls of the million-year-old atomic volcano victims of the alien warlord Xenu cluttering up your natural clam-descended powers, and then you might not even be able to squash bugs with your mind at fifty paces!  How lame would that be?
 
2013-05-26 11:46:14 AM  
Overlooked here, but that story comes from the McClatchy papers' Washington bureau, one of the last bastions of cutting edge journalism. It was the McClatchy staff that was asking the tough questions of Bush and Rummy in the months leading up to the Iraq war -- like where is the real evidence of WMDs -- and sadly the nation wasn't paying attention.
 
2013-05-26 11:46:18 AM  
LAUGHTER OL anyone who does the use of the polygraph for any of the reasons is the quack. If you are the person who uses this at the workplace you deserve the shooting.
 
2013-05-26 11:47:53 AM  
I once applied for and almost took a job in the defense industry that had a clearance so high that they couldn't even tell me what it was, and the work was described as "database programming" and that's all they would say. They told me that I would sit around and do nothing for 6 months or so waiting for my clearance to go through. Once on the job, I could be pulled aside for no reason and given a polygraph where they could ask any question at all, like whether I sucked dick, etc. If I failed the polygraph I would be immediately terminated and escorted out of the building. I ended up taking a lower paying job that I had to move halfway across the country for instead.
 
2013-05-26 11:50:05 AM  
There is no such thing as a lie detector.
What there is, is this thing called a polygraph, or hocus pocus for a better word.
A polygraph is a device used to fool, intimidate, terrorize and generally fark with the unsuspecting, hopefully to the point of utter confusion and collapse.
Voila! A "confession".
 
2013-05-26 11:50:35 AM  

Babwa Wawa: I went in for a polygraph many years ago - was going work my way through college as a deputy sheriff in the local jail.  Polygrapher said I had problems with the question around selling cocaine.  Never been near the stuff before or since.

//CSB


When I was in college, I had to take one as a requirement for a job at a 7-11. When I checked back, I was told that I'd lied about everything, including my name and address. The manager knew it couldn't be accurate, but told me he couldn't hire me anyway. Policy, he said.
 
2013-05-26 11:52:39 AM  
Almost as soon as the polygraph came into use there were proven means to force false readings.  The only times I have heard of any hard evidence that came from the polygraph was exposing a suspect's underlying heart condition.

Hell, if they want to hook me up to one, it'll be with my lawyer present as they ask questions, and I'm going to show it's dead wrong by confessing to being the real Jack the Ripper, Zodiac Killer, or any maniac that ran rampant before I was born and letting the device show "no deception detected".  I think they'll have a very hard time making charges stick if I couldn't possibly have been alive during the time of the murder.
 
2013-05-26 11:53:18 AM  

ManRay: Best polygraph ever.
NSFW language.


That is f*cking great.
 
2013-05-26 11:54:09 AM  

show me: I once applied for and almost took a job in the defense industry that had a clearance so high that they couldn't even tell me what it was, and the work was described as "database programming" and that's all they would say. They told me that I would sit around and do nothing for 6 months or so waiting for my clearance to go through. Once on the job, I could be pulled aside for no reason and given a polygraph where they could ask any question at all, like whether I sucked dick, etc. If I failed the polygraph I would be immediately terminated and escorted out of the building. I ended up taking a lower paying job that I had to move halfway across the country for instead.


Yeah Im not sure Id want a jorb where id have to take poly graph.
 
2013-05-26 11:55:23 AM  
We fixed the glitch.

So it'll just work itself out naturally.
 
2013-05-26 12:00:43 PM  

Molavian: ManRay: Best polygraph ever.
NSFW language.

That is f*cking great.


The creator of The Wire swears that scene was based on something that actually happened.
 
Esn
2013-05-26 12:01:01 PM  

basemetal: Benevolent Misanthrope: t3knomanser: miss diminutive: If I'm ever in a police interrogation I'm just going to stay silent and wait for a lawyer.

That is the only action you can take that won't make things worse for you.

Never trust a police officer.  I'll say it again, louder, because it bears repeating:

NEVER TRUST A POLICE OFFICER.

Their job is to clear the case, not to solve it.  They are, in majority, power-abusing, ego-maniacal assholes with the world's most stressful job, and government pays them to wear all that black leather.  On top of that, the law does not allow them to clear your name.  Ever.  Anything you say to a cop - if it can possibly be construed or even twisted to incriminate you, that's "evidence".  If it clears you, That's "hearsay" and not admissible in court.

It sucks, but that's how it works.

NEVER - EVER - TRUST A POLICE OFFICER.

This has been posted here before, Don't Talk to the Police.


I just want to post to recommend that video. It's a great video, required viewing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
 
2013-05-26 12:04:15 PM  
What do you expect from the guy who created Wonder Woman?

4.bp.blogspot.com

www.saturdayeveningpost.com

It was all just his clever ploy to tie more females up, this time in the guise of Science.
 
2013-05-26 12:05:15 PM  
The very first line in that "article" shows me the reporter has no idea what they are talking about. Big surprise, I know.
 
2013-05-26 12:12:29 PM  
i6.photobucket.com
 
2013-05-26 12:12:49 PM  
Ah yes, the polygraph.  Rivaled only in accuracy by the scientific method of throwing women in the river to see if they're witches.
 
2013-05-26 12:14:44 PM  
Why there was ever any doubt as to the thoroughness of the polygraph as pseudoscience I'll never understand.  To me, it's not about police abuse of power so much as it is an industry protecting its own bottom line, kind of like the homeopathic "medicine" industry. If the polygraph had any basis in reality those kind of flaws FTA would have been exposed widely and openly discussed, not dismissed with "uh, no comment, national security".  The polygraph is junk, plain and simple.

I love the circular reasoning, too:
"Tommy Thompson, spokesman for the Phoenix Police Department, said his polygraphers had "over 60 years of experience collectively" and added that "no disparities have ever been noticed." Others said they thought supervisors would catch any error before it had a significant impact on a test."

Right.  As if they even have the minimum facilities to identify a discrepancy.
 
2013-05-26 12:15:11 PM  

ManRay: Molavian: ManRay: Best polygraph ever.
NSFW language.

That is f*cking great.

The creator of The Wire swears that scene was based on something that actually happened.


Yeah, David Simon first mentioned the story in his book "Homicide: A Year On The Killing Streets", which, if you liked either the "Homicide" TV seies or "The Wire", you have absolutely no excuse to have not read.
 
2013-05-26 12:15:30 PM  

pueblonative: Ah yes, the polygraph.  Rivaled only in accuracy by the scientific method of throwing women in the river to see if they're witches.


Well throwing them in the river is unnecessary, We can use my larger scales.
 
2013-05-26 12:18:02 PM  

Jim_Callahan: Benevolent Misanthrope: NEVER - EVER - TRUST A POLICE OFFICER.

That's a bit harsh.

Trusting the cops is fine.  If you're a lost child, they'll get you back to your parents.  If you're getting mugged or robbed, they'll put up the lights and scare your assailant off, if you have a criminal complaint they'll file it for you, etc.  They're not necessarily bad at their jobs and they're no worse people on average than any other blue-collar worker you'll meet.

What you should never do is disclose any personal information to a police officer beyond your name, contact information, and current location to any police officer.  Any problem that the cops cannot solve with that much information about you is not a problem for the police.  Don't tell them where you've been, what you've been doing, or anything about anyone you've encountered.


Well, the thing is... I'm not a child.  If I'm getting mugged or robbed, the crime will be over long before they get there, and if I've been drinking or I look otherwise suspicious to their little one-track brain, I may be arrested myself.  If I have a criminal complaint, they'll give me the form for me to fill out and then file it where it will never see the light of day again.  If I'm in an abusive relationship, and I call them to help me out of a domestic violence situation, and they don't approve of my being gay, they will advise me to get another girlfriend, not help me. (This happened to me.  Twice.  In different cities.)  And speaking of which, as an openly gay person, I've been far more likely to be rousted by cops than helped by them generally, until very recently.  When their departments grudgingly put a few people on paid leave for doing it and told the others some panty-waist DA told them they can't any more.  (Now, I have the added bonus of knowing that, if the cops decide to abuse me for being gay, they'll also plant drugs or otherwise trump something real up to justify it.)

Cops routinely beat citizens, destroy evidence, plant evidence, botch cases, and even shoot victims instead of criminals - and then cover it up.  They may be no worse at their jobs than any blue-collar worker - but your average blue collar worker's mistakes, by and large, do not ruin anyone else's life and do not leave them in the hospital from a gunshot wound or a beating.  Your average blue collar worker is also not in a job that, by definition, is supposed to ensure public safety.

Again:

NEVER - EVER - TRUST A POLICE OFFICER
 
2013-05-26 12:18:10 PM  

hardinparamedic: Also, here's a handy protip tip to add lying to a police officer to the indictment if you get pulled over or are stopped at a DUI Checkpoint: No, officer, I've had nothing but water to drink all day.


FTfY, assuming that the person did have something to drink.  The fifth amendment is the best way to go.
 
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