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(STLToday)   Hobby Lobby says it is a ministry and should not have to pay fines under Obamacare   (stltoday.com) divider line 215
    More: Unlikely, Hobby Lobby, ministry, individual mandate  
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10211 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 May 2013 at 5:28 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-24 11:57:37 PM  
A business can't have religious beliefs.
 
2013-05-24 11:59:36 PM  
So Hobby Lobby admits to violating IRS rules on non-profits by, you know,  making a profit. Interesting.
 
2013-05-25 12:00:37 AM  
You know, if an employee of yours gets pregnant, you have to give her like 5 years maternity leave or whatever it's up to now. That might cost you a little more than letting the unholy harlot just have her Satanic baby killing potion.
 
2013-05-25 12:03:27 AM  
Duncan cited the Citizens United campaign-finance decision that said corporations had constitutional protections.

And a big thanks for that ever-lasting shiat burger, Supremes.
 
2013-05-25 12:05:29 AM  

CruiserTwelve: A business can't have religious beliefs.


You'd think, right?

"Is religion the kind of right can only be exercised by a natural person? Well, the question nearly answers itself. ... It's not a purely personal right."

I know that argument won't go anywhere, but it still gives me the farking chills.
 
2013-05-25 12:08:54 AM  
I don't think they understand how health insurance or birth control works.
 
2013-05-25 12:10:12 AM  

vartian: Duncan cited the Citizens United campaign-finance decision that said corporations had constitutional protections.

And a big thanks for that ever-lasting shiat burger, Supremes.


I don't know, Baby Love and Back In My Arms Again were pretty good songs
 
2013-05-25 12:13:16 AM  
The one thing this clearly shows is that we need less regulation and lower corporate taxes.

Oh, and tax payer funded child care for start ups, while the mommy and daddy corporations are at work during the day.
 
2013-05-25 12:13:18 AM  

TheOmni: I don't think they understand how health insurance or birth control works.


Oh they understand.  Whores and sluts used birth control.  That's all they need to know.
 
2013-05-25 12:13:31 AM  

themindiswatching: So Hobby Lobby admits to violating IRS rules on non-profits by, you know,  making a profit. Interesting.


You mean like all those Prosperity Gospel Ministries?
 
2013-05-25 12:17:55 AM  

NewportBarGuy: themindiswatching: So Hobby Lobby admits to violating IRS rules on non-profits by, you know,  making a profit. Interesting.

You mean like all those Prosperity Gospel Ministries?


They're helping with a good cause though: the minister's lack of yachts.
 
2013-05-25 12:18:51 AM  

clancifer: TheOmni: I don't think they understand how health insurance or birth control works.

Oh they understand.  Whores and sluts used birth control.  That's all they need to know.


I remember a patient at the pharmacy I worked at a few years ago. She had to have the prescription be for health reasons. (Complexion or hormonal regulation or some sh*t.) If it didn't have that, her insurance (employer) wouldn't cover it. She worked for a church or some religious thing. I thought that was the craziest sh*t I'd ever heard. And I've heard "Hey, we're gonna give this 18-year-old cross-eyed retard live ammo and you are going to cover each other while you move to the objective." Sooooo.... This even pales.

You want more of your workers out for 6-9 months? That's sound business planning, Hobby Lobby. Praise be to Jesus or whatever.
 
2013-05-25 12:19:41 AM  

themindiswatching: They're helping with a good cause though: the minister's lack of yachts.


I think Creflo Dollar is my favorite. That name just kicks all kinds of ass.
 
2013-05-25 12:50:51 AM  
Who would Jesus deprive of health care?
 
2013-05-25 01:24:14 AM  

NewportBarGuy: clancifer: TheOmni: I don't think they understand how health insurance or birth control works.

Oh they understand.  Whores and sluts used birth control.  That's all they need to know.

I remember a patient at the pharmacy I worked at a few years ago. She had to have the prescription be for health reasons. (Complexion or hormonal regulation or some sh*t.) If it didn't have that, her insurance (employer) wouldn't cover it. She worked for a church or some religious thing. I thought that was the craziest sh*t I'd ever heard. And I've heard "Hey, we're gonna give this 18-year-old cross-eyed retard live ammo and you are going to cover each other while you move to the objective." Sooooo.... This even pales.

You want more of your workers out for 6-9 months? That's sound business planning, Hobby Lobby. Praise be to Jesus or whatever.


Don't forget the part where they don't want to pay into welfare. Force a baby on a poor woman and don't support it, that's the way of things lately; Yay, everyone pays!
 
2013-05-25 02:08:58 AM  
Vishnu, Mary, and Joseph! According to their FAQ, via wikipedia, they don't use barcodes. And I can guess it's because ... they have 666 in them! (Dramatic chord!)

/which they don't
 
2013-05-25 02:10:13 AM  
Hobby Lobby is a farking terrible store. It's the size of walmart and has the organization of a bodega. Cheap Chinese knickknacks, 30% of which are broken, make up the front of the store. To the left you can get cheap chinese seasonal knickknacks, which is christmas shiat for most of the year.

In the back lies all the "hobby" stuff - arts & craft gear in aisles which are not labeled at all. You want paint? You better remember which of the 40 aisles has paint, because there are no signs anywhere in the store, excluding knickknack signs that say "bless this house"

If you want help, you better get farked because there are 2 visible employees on the floor at a time
 
2013-05-25 02:16:53 AM  

moothemagiccow: Hobby Lobby is a farking terrible store. It's the size of walmart and has the organization of a bodega. Cheap Chinese knickknacks, 30% of which are broken, make up the front of the store. To the left you can get cheap chinese seasonal knickknacks, which is christmas shiat for most of the year.

In the back lies all the "hobby" stuff - arts & craft gear in aisles which are not labeled at all. You want paint? You better remember which of the 40 aisles has paint, because there are no signs anywhere in the store, excluding knickknack signs that say "bless this house"

If you want help, you better get farked because there are 2 visible employees on the floor at a time


and then you find that their selection of the hobby/craft items you want is almost as good as walmarts.
 
2013-05-25 02:19:49 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-05-25 02:21:37 AM  

moothemagiccow: If you want help, you better get farked because there are 2 visible employees on the floor at a time


If God wanted you to get hobby stuff, he would tell you what aisle stuff's in.
 
2013-05-25 02:58:18 AM  
Maybe if you stopped pricing your shiat double what the art stores sell it for (and triple what you can buy it for online) you could actually clear some of that outdated stock that's been sitting on the shelf for 5 years and be able to afford some proper insurance for your employees.
 
2013-05-25 03:23:06 AM  

moothemagiccow: Hobby Lobby is a farking terrible store. It's the size of walmart and has the organization of a bodega. Cheap Chinese knickknacks, 30% of which are broken, make up the front of the store. To the left you can get cheap chinese seasonal knickknacks, which is christmas shiat for most of the year.

In the back lies all the "hobby" stuff - arts & craft gear in aisles which are not labeled at all. You want paint? You better remember which of the 40 aisles has paint, because there are no signs anywhere in the store, excluding knickknack signs that say "bless this house"

If you want help, you better get farked because there are 2 visible employees on the floor at a time


How do they compete with Michaels then? We don't have Hobby Lobby out this way, and while Michaels has its flaws, it certainly sounds way better than what you describe.
 
2013-05-25 03:51:31 AM  

ShawnDoc: How do they compete with Michaels then? We don't have Hobby Lobby out this way, and while Michaels has its flaws, it certainly sounds way better than what you describe.


Around here at least, Michaels stores are less than half the size of Hobby Lobbys, and the prices are even a little higher.  In my experience, the proportion of tacky knickknacks to actual art stuff is roughly the same, with the exception that at least 25% of any Hobby Lobby store is devoted to Christmas displays 365 days a year.
 
2013-05-25 05:33:19 AM  
Old and busted: corporations are people.

New hotness: corporations are ministries.

Cause Jesus was all about limited liability.
 
2013-05-25 05:35:18 AM  

dookdookdook: ShawnDoc: How do they compete with Michaels then? We don't have Hobby Lobby out this way, and while Michaels has its flaws, it certainly sounds way better than what you describe.

Around here at least, Michaels stores are less than half the size of Hobby Lobbys, and the prices are even a little higher.  In my experience, the proportion of tacky knickknacks to actual art stuff is roughly the same, with the exception that at least 25% of any Hobby Lobby store is devoted to Christmas displays 365 days a year.


I like joann fabrics. Well "like". In that it's the best choice around here for that kind of stuff.
 
2013-05-25 05:39:06 AM  
Ya know, I could respect their position that being a private organization should allow them to provide a specific level of health coverage in line with the religious beliefs of the owner.

I could, but I don't, and I think it's a totally asinine, back-asswards position, and that they are wrong, but I see where they're coming from and all.

But, trying to claim you're a ministry to avoid the legal obligations so you can be assholes and impose your dark-ages beliefs on employees you've never even met, even though you are obviously not any form of religious institution? fark you, you dickwads. Go blow a goat.
 
2013-05-25 05:39:54 AM  
The things some scumbag corporate types will do to avoid social responsibility.
 
2013-05-25 05:44:44 AM  

CruiserTwelve: A business can't have religious beliefs.


According to the IRS and Federal Law, those religious beliefs A) Don't make it a "ministry" or a "charity", since it is a franchisee-owned for profit corporation, and B) Those religious beliefs don't give it exemption from federal law.

On another note, fark Hobby Lobby. After what they did to my girlfriend, I will never buy another thing from them. They cut her down to 16 hours a week, while making every male member of the staff a 32-hour a week employee so they wouldn't have to pay her any benefits.
 
2013-05-25 05:45:23 AM  

vartian: CruiserTwelve: A business can't have religious beliefs.

You'd think, right?

"Is religion the kind of right can only be exercised by a natural person? Well, the question nearly answers itself. ... It's not a purely personal right."

I know that argument won't go anywhere, but it still gives me the farking chills.


Frankly, I'm having more than a little bit of trouble following his... uh.... 'logic'.  Also, don't be surprised if this particular argument works, all the way through the supreme court.

After all, they already decided corporations "are people" in several other ways, religious freedom (to oppress other religious choices, or the lack there of) seems like it would be a logical next step.  This country loves it's corrupt money, but we love our corrupt religions as well.
 
2013-05-25 05:45:30 AM  
I don't shop Hobby Lobby. Not by decision but because even if I wanted to, there isn't one anywhere near here.

But for a business to offer their employees insurance that deals with stuff like birth control/morning after pill isn't condoning it. If the employee shares your values, they simply won't use those methods.

Then again, "my religion is the only correct religion and my values are the only correct values and the rest of you can all suck it." This is the general mentality of way too many religious people in the US today and that's why I got out of organized religion. (But I'm not an atheist.)
 
2013-05-25 05:46:15 AM  

hardinparamedic: CruiserTwelve: A business can't have religious beliefs.

According to the IRS and Federal Law, those religious beliefs A) Don't make it a "ministry" or a "charity", since it is a franchisee-owned for profit corporation, and B) Those religious beliefs don't give it exemption from federal law.

On another note, fark Hobby Lobby. After what they did to my girlfriend, I will never buy another thing from them. They cut her down to 16 hours a week, while making every male member of the staff a 32-hour a week employee so they wouldn't have to pay her any benefits.


That sounds like an actionable claim for sexual discrimination.
 
2013-05-25 05:48:03 AM  
Do they also refuse to give their employees wages that could potentially be used for condoms or after morning pills? They should have the right to withhold paychecks.
 
2013-05-25 05:48:32 AM  

MmmmBacon: That sounds like an actionable claim for sexual discrimination.


They made the claim it was because of performance issues, and shuffled a few people around. Despite the fact that she had exceptional comments from her manager.

She told them to go fark themselves this week. Davis Bridal hired her for a full time position, non-commission making 1.6x what she was making at Hobby Lobby.
 
2013-05-25 05:49:12 AM  

almandot: Do they also refuse to give their employees wages that could potentially be used for condoms or after morning pills? They should have the right to withhold paychecks.


They are notorious for letting their Franchisees do whatever the fark they want to their employees. Honestly, it's worse than wal-mart.
 
2013-05-25 05:49:37 AM  
Wild guess, they're all for boner pills.
 
2013-05-25 05:52:05 AM  

hardinparamedic: MmmmBacon: That sounds like an actionable claim for sexual discrimination.

They made the claim it was because of performance issues, and shuffled a few people around. Despite the fact that she had exceptional comments from her manager.

She told them to go fark themselves this week. Davis Bridal hired her for a full time position, non-commission making 1.6x what she was making at Hobby Lobby.


Good for her! Fark those douchebags at Hobby Lobby.
 
2013-05-25 05:53:06 AM  

Shadowtag: Wild guess, they're all for boner pills.


The Bible condones boner pills, they're like Jesus, you know? Raising the dead back to life?
 
2013-05-25 05:53:25 AM  

vartian: Duncan cited the Citizens United campaign-finance decision that said corporations had constitutional protections.

And a big thanks for that ever-lasting shiat burger, Supremes.


They'd have to be mentally defective to agree with that blind assertion.  You think any sane judge would say that corporations have the same right to privacy or right to bear arms that people have?  That would undermine the entire SEC, and give public corporations a justification to build their own private armies.

It would be almost like the burbclave world of Snow Crash

On second thought, fark yeah, let's get this party started.
 
2013-05-25 05:55:05 AM  
"Is religion the kind of right can only be exercised by a natural person? Well, the question nearly answers itself. ... It's not a purely personal right."

The question does answer itself, quite explicitly in federal and constitutional law.  Under the constitution, only individual persons have the right of religion.  Under the broader federal standards, only individuals and 501(c)3 organisations have the right of religion.

So it stops right there, actually.  Hobby Lobby is not a 501(c)3 organization so far as they know, so they're not even remotely eligible to ask for this kind of exemption.

However, taking it a step further, individual rights supersede corporate rights in basically every case.  Insurance is not owned by the corp, it's part of the pay of the employee, and is thus the property of the employee.  The corporation cannot dictate to the employee what to do with his or her private property, which their compensation is very definitely under extremely firmly established legal precedents from back in the end of the gilded age.

So... even if they were in fact a 501(c)3 organization, they  still wouldn't be eligible for an exemption here, and to ask for it is stupid on its face for anyone with even the slightest knowledge of basic civics and general employment law.  It's not a coincidence that it takes the full financial and political power of the largest fat-cat organizations in the US to keep even a few of these stupid, stupid suits from being immediately laughed out of court.  The request couldn't be any more obviously in violation of basic US law if they were requesting that a newspaper be censored and its guns confiscated without a warrant while the employees were sold into slavery.
 
2013-05-25 05:55:58 AM  

hardinparamedic: almandot: Do they also refuse to give their employees wages that could potentially be used for condoms or after morning pills? They should have the right to withhold paychecks.

They are notorious for letting their Franchisees do whatever the fark they want to their employees. Honestly, it's worse than wal-mart.


That's not going far enough! Hobby Lobby should be able to pay their employees in their own script, that will only be accepted at Hobby Lobby-run company stores. So the employees will only be able to buy items the company wants them to buy. Of course condoms and birth control won't be available at these company stores.
 
2013-05-25 05:57:20 AM  

HotWingAgenda: vartian: Duncan cited the Citizens United campaign-finance decision that said corporations had constitutional protections.

And a big thanks for that ever-lasting shiat burger, Supremes.

They'd have to be mentally defective to agree with that blind assertion.  You think any sane judge would say that corporations have the same right to privacy or right to bear arms that people have?  That would undermine the entire SEC, and give public corporations a justification to build their own private armies.

It would be almost like the burbclave world of Snow Crash

On second thought, fark yeah, let's get this party started.


You haven't been paying attention.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_military_company
 
2013-05-25 05:59:43 AM  

NewportBarGuy: clancifer: TheOmni: I don't think they understand how health insurance or birth control works.

Oh they understand.  Whores and sluts used birth control.  That's all they need to know.

I remember a patient at the pharmacy I worked at a few years ago. She had to have the prescription be for health reasons. (Complexion or hormonal regulation or some sh*t.) If it didn't have that, her insurance (employer) wouldn't cover it. She worked for a church or some religious thing. I thought that was the craziest sh*t I'd ever heard. And I've heard "Hey, we're gonna give this 18-year-old cross-eyed retard live ammo and you are going to cover each other while you move to the objective." Sooooo.... This even pales.

You want more of your workers out for 6-9 months? That's sound business planning, Hobby Lobby. Praise be to Jesus or whatever.


I too have heard something similar.  Although, our guy wasn't a retard, he'd actually joined the Army after convincing a judge that it was a better alternative than going to jail for incest.  The guy actually farked his sister.  Made it all the way through Ranger school too.  Probably because nothing was harder than convincing his sister to let him hit it.

We took to calling him "Sister Farker."
 
2013-05-25 05:59:45 AM  

CruiserTwelve: A business can't have religious beliefs.


Corporations, are people, my friend.
 
2013-05-25 06:00:39 AM  
Hahahahahahahaha. Oh wait, You're being serious. Let me laugh even harder.
 
2013-05-25 06:00:46 AM  

themindiswatching: So Hobby Lobby admits to violating IRS rules on non-profits by, you know,  making a profit. Interesting.


well, if the artilcle actually said anything close to what subby said, yeah... wait, no, you would still be wrong.
 
2013-05-25 06:02:17 AM  
Hmmmm. I have that Laffy Taffy. Does that make me also exempt.
 
2013-05-25 06:04:36 AM  

MmmmBacon: Shadowtag: Wild guess, they're all for boner pills.

The Bible condones boner pills, they're like Jesus, you know? Raising the dead back to life?


As long as the boner pills have sparkly pink glitter on them, they'll be kosher.

/OMG Mariah Carrie thread hi-jack
//Just kidding
 
2013-05-25 06:04:57 AM  

I sound fat: themindiswatching: So Hobby Lobby admits to violating IRS rules on non-profits by, you know,  making a profit. Interesting.

well, if the artilcle actually said anything close to what subby said, yeah... wait, no, you would still be wrong.


Also, non-profits have to make a profit, otherwise they'd fail.  They're just very limited in what they're allowed to do with said profits.  They typically can't pay out dividends and have to re-invest most of it in company assets or set it aside in an external investment or rainy-day fund.
 
2013-05-25 06:11:19 AM  

CruiserTwelve: A business can't have religious beliefs.


Sure it can.  Like all corporations, Hobby Lobby is a disciple of the Church of the Almighty Dollar.
 
2013-05-25 06:11:40 AM  

Kahabut: HotWingAgenda: vartian: Duncan cited the Citizens United campaign-finance decision that said corporations had constitutional protections.

And a big thanks for that ever-lasting shiat burger, Supremes.

They'd have to be mentally defective to agree with that blind assertion.  You think any sane judge would say that corporations have the same right to privacy or right to bear arms that people have?  That would undermine the entire SEC, and give public corporations a justification to build their own private armies.

It would be almost like the burbclave world of Snow Crash

On second thought, fark yeah, let's get this party started.

You haven't been paying attention.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_military_company


Turns out I was wronger than you thought.  Those jackasses specifically gave corporations free rein to field their own armies, not even for security contracting to the government.

Writing for the majority Chief Justice Roberts opined, "If the first amendment applies to Corporations, surely the second amendment also applies. Since Corporations have no history of abusing their power, we expect that they will employ their private armies with restraint and discretion,"
 
2013-05-25 06:11:42 AM  
I think they should put the morning after drug in the water and you have to sign a waiver and take a parenting skill test and show proof that you can afford a child before you're given a drug to counter act it.

The money we would save in federal school lunch programs alone would be worth it.
 
2013-05-25 06:12:43 AM  

Jim_Callahan: I sound fat: themindiswatching: So Hobby Lobby admits to violating IRS rules on non-profits by, you know,  making a profit. Interesting.

well, if the artilcle actually said anything close to what subby said, yeah... wait, no, you would still be wrong.

Also, non-profits have to make a profit, otherwise they'd fail.  They're just very limited in what they're allowed to do with said profits.  They typically can't pay out dividends and have to re-invest most of it in company assets or set it aside in an external investment or rainy-day fund.


Uh... no.  Almost all non-profits, such as churches operate at a perpetual loss.  It's really more of an accounting trick than anything else, but it's the way things work.

In simple terms most churches are supported by community donations, and the church pays the bills and the salary for the church leadership.  In the process, they effectively spend all their money each month, and therefore operate at a loss (at or near 100%).

Now of course, that doesn't count "non-profits" like the mega churches.  That's a farking scam.
 
2013-05-25 06:14:39 AM  
Challenge: Pick up any knick knack that this business sells and find one that is NOT made in China.

After about forty minutes and a few hundred items, my wife and I gave up. I am convinced that nothing in this
store is made from any other country. It's like what would happen if a country had a garage sale.
 
2013-05-25 06:15:38 AM  

themindiswatching: So Hobby Lobby admits to violating IRS rules on non-profits by, you know,  making a profit. Interesting.


Only two posts in, but you win the Dumbest Post Of This Thread Award.
 
2013-05-25 06:17:11 AM  

vartian: CruiserTwelve: A business can't have religious beliefs.

You'd think, right?

"Is religion the kind of right can only be exercised by a natural person? Well, the question nearly answers itself. ... It's not a purely personal right."

I know that argument won't go anywhere, but it still gives me the farking chills.


I'd really like to read where Duncan went with that.  How the fark do you back up such a claim?
 
2013-05-25 06:20:25 AM  

MmmmBacon: That's not going far enough! Hobby Lobby should be able to pay their employees in their own script, that will only be accepted at Hobby Lobby-run company stores. So the employees will only be able to buy items the company wants them to buy. Of course condoms and birth control won't be available at these company stores.


Why not just pay them in BitCoins!

I promise you (snicker) I TOTALLY DIDNT LAUGH typing this.
 
2013-05-25 06:20:31 AM  

vartian: CruiserTwelve: A business can't have religious beliefs.

You'd think, right?

"Is religion the kind of right can only be exercised by a natural person? Well, the question nearly answers itself. ... It's not a purely personal right."

I know that argument won't go anywhere, but it still gives me the farking chills.


Why wouldn't the argument go anywhere?

There is a precedent.
 
2013-05-25 06:21:14 AM  

log_jammin: moothemagiccow: Hobby Lobby is a farking terrible store. It's the size of walmart and has the organization of a bodega. Cheap Chinese knickknacks, 30% of which are broken, make up the front of the store. To the left you can get cheap chinese seasonal knickknacks, which is christmas shiat for most of the year.

In the back lies all the "hobby" stuff - arts & craft gear in aisles which are not labeled at all. You want paint? You better remember which of the 40 aisles has paint, because there are no signs anywhere in the store, excluding knickknack signs that say "bless this house"

If you want help, you better get farked because there are 2 visible employees on the floor at a time

and then you find that their selection of the hobby/craft items you want is almost as good as walmarts.


You have to understand their demographic.  The homes of their customers are exactly like their stores.  That's what keeps the customers coming back.
 
2013-05-25 06:23:33 AM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: Who would Jesus deprive of health care?


The Romans?
 
2013-05-25 06:24:35 AM  

HotWingAgenda: Kahabut: HotWingAgenda: vartian: Duncan cited the Citizens United campaign-finance decision that said corporations had constitutional protections.

And a big thanks for that ever-lasting shiat burger, Supremes.

They'd have to be mentally defective to agree with that blind assertion.  You think any sane judge would say that corporations have the same right to privacy or right to bear arms that people have?  That would undermine the entire SEC, and give public corporations a justification to build their own private armies.

It would be almost like the burbclave world of Snow Crash

On second thought, fark yeah, let's get this party started.

You haven't been paying attention.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_military_company

Turns out I was wronger than you thought.  Those jackasses specifically gave corporations free rein to field their own armies, not even for security contracting to the government.

Writing for the majority Chief Justice Roberts opined, "If the first amendment applies to Corporations, surely the second amendment also applies. Since Corporations have no history of abusing their power, we expect that they will employ their private armies with restraint and discretion,"


It's satire, you idiot.  First clue is that it doesn't cite the case.
 
2013-05-25 06:24:48 AM  

HotWingAgenda: Kahabut: HotWingAgenda: vartian: Duncan cited the Citizens United campaign-finance decision that said corporations had constitutional protections.

And a big thanks for that ever-lasting shiat burger, Supremes.

They'd have to be mentally defective to agree with that blind assertion.  You think any sane judge would say that corporations have the same right to privacy or right to bear arms that people have?  That would undermine the entire SEC, and give public corporations a justification to build their own private armies.

It would be almost like the burbclave world of Snow Crash

On second thought, fark yeah, let's get this party started.

You haven't been paying attention.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_military_company

Turns out I was wronger than you thought.  Those jackasses specifically gave corporations free rein to field their own armies, not even for security contracting to the government.

Writing for the majority Chief Justice Roberts opined, "If the first amendment applies to Corporations, surely the second amendment also applies. Since Corporations have no history of abusing their power, we expect that they will employ their private armies with restraint and discretion,"


[SATIRE]
 
2013-05-25 06:27:36 AM  

hardinparamedic: CruiserTwelve: A business can't have religious beliefs.

According to the IRS and Federal Law, those religious beliefs A) Don't make it a "ministry" or a "charity", since it is a franchisee-owned for profit corporation, and B) Those religious beliefs don't give it exemption from federal law.

On another note, fark Hobby Lobby. After what they did to my girlfriend, I will never buy another thing from them. They cut her down to 16 hours a week, while making every male member of the staff a 32-hour a week employee so they wouldn't have to pay her any benefits.


You're pissed because they gave your girlfriend a solid gold civil rights case?
 
2013-05-25 06:31:37 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: You have to understand their demographic.  The homes of their customers are exactly like their stores.  That's what keeps the customers coming back.


That thought has crossed my mind more than once.
 
2013-05-25 06:32:08 AM  
HotWingAgenda: Kahabut: HotWingAgenda: vartian: Duncan cited the Citizens United campaign-finance decision that said corporations had constitutional protections.

And a big thanks for that ever-lasting shiat burger, Supremes.

They'd have to be mentally defective to agree with that blind assertion.  You think any sane judge would say that corporations have the same right to privacy or right to bear arms that people have?  That would undermine the entire SEC, and give public corporations a justification to build their own private armies.

It would be almost like the burbclave world of Snow Crash

On second thought, fark yeah, let's get this party started.

You haven't been paying attention.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_military_company

Turns out I was wronger than you thought.  Those jackasses specifically gave corporations free rein to field their own armies, not even for security contracting to the government.

Writing for the majority Chief Justice Roberts opined, "If the first amendment applies to Corporations, surely the second amendment also applies. Since Corporations have no history of abusing their power, we expect that they will employ their private armies with restraint and discretion,"


In a concurring opinion Justice Thomas wrote, "Because I was downloading porn when this case was argued I don't remember much, but I always vote with my friends--Scalia. Alito, Roberts, and Kennedy. We Catholics stick together."

I lol'ed
 
2013-05-25 06:42:21 AM  
the only good or bad thing about hobby lobby is they have no inventory cost management on some categories. if you are willing to pick your way through the many years old plastic model kits, model rocket stuff, train sets, and things i'll stereotype as teenage boys and geek stuff you can find stuff that has been mispriced or discontinued often by 50%. i'd love to look at their inventory lists. they must have 'invisible' inventory because sku numbers have changed and prices on some stuff is so off. it sucks running over there to get a hobby size bottle of enamel paint and the price and paint itself is from 7-10 years ago.
 
2013-05-25 06:44:20 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: You're pissed because they gave your girlfriend a solid gold civil rights case?


Problem with that: 1) It's Arkansas, and 2) She'd have to fight a protracted court battle on the budget of a college sophomore.
 
2013-05-25 06:46:28 AM  
I always get a kick out of the derpy "America is a Christian Nation" ads they run during religious holiday and the 4th of July.
 
2013-05-25 06:48:24 AM  

CruiserTwelve: A business can't have religious beliefs.


Corporations are people my friend.
 
2013-05-25 06:50:16 AM  

Mrtraveler01: I always get a kick out of the derpy "America is a Christian Nation" ads they run during religious holiday and the 4th of July.


I never heard of Hobby Lobby.  (checks the Google)  Looks like they have 5 stores in the St. Louis area, but  it looks like they're all at least a half hour drive for me.  Nothing in central county or north county.
 
2013-05-25 06:50:42 AM  

Mr.Tangent: CruiserTwelve: A business can't have religious beliefs.

Corporations are people my friend.


media.boingboing.net
 
2013-05-25 06:53:25 AM  

themindiswatching: So Hobby Lobby admits to violating IRS rules on non-profits by, you know,  making a profit. Interesting.


Being "non-profit" is just a tax status. I've consulted for many of these organizations in the past, several of which made quite a bit of money.
 
2013-05-25 06:57:26 AM  
And their picture looks about the way you'd expect. Rich, old, and white.

"fark you, we got ours!"
 
2013-05-25 06:57:50 AM  

Alphax: Mrtraveler01: I always get a kick out of the derpy "America is a Christian Nation" ads they run during religious holiday and the 4th of July.

I never heard of Hobby Lobby.  (checks the Google)  Looks like they have 5 stores in the St. Louis area, but  it looks like they're all at least a half hour drive for me.  Nothing in central county or north county.


You aren't missing anything.

Imagine that, somehow, a really cheap dollar store had a child by the John McNaughton Jesus painting.  The resultant disordered heap of cheap-yet-overpriced shoddy imported kitsch would be Hobby Lobby.
 
2013-05-25 06:57:51 AM  

Alphax: Mrtraveler01: I always get a kick out of the derpy "America is a Christian Nation" ads they run during religious holiday and the 4th of July.

I never heard of Hobby Lobby.  (checks the Google)  Looks like they have 5 stores in the St. Louis area, but  it looks like they're all at least a half hour drive for me.  Nothing in central county or north county.


There's one out in St. Peters (not sure where the other 4 are). But Michael's is much closer to me so that's my go to place if I need crap like that.

They do run those derpy ads in the Post-Dispatch once in a while so you'll have to keep your eyes peeled.
 
2013-05-25 07:01:57 AM  
I guess my whole issue with this is that I don't believe hormonal contraception or morning after pills should be covered by health insurance. Not a health issue.Doesn't protect you from arcs even.

/wanna get poked, pay for your own damn protection or make your boyfriend pay.
 
2013-05-25 07:03:22 AM  

Animatronik: I guess my whole issue with this is that I don't believe hormonal contraception or morning after pills should be covered by health insurance. Not a health issue.Doesn't protect you from arcs even.

/wanna get poked, pay for your own damn protection or make your boyfriend pay.


Hormonal birth control has a large variety of effects that are often used to the advantage of the woman. In fact, it's somewhat often prescribed for health reasons.
 
2013-05-25 07:07:12 AM  

Animatronik: I guess my whole issue with this is that I don't believe hormonal contraception or morning after pills should be covered by health insurance. Not a health issue.Doesn't protect you from arcs even.

/wanna get poked, pay for your own damn protection or make your boyfriend pay.


My wife needs birth control, even though she is sterile, because of her otherwise out-of-control Endomitriosis. That's what ruined her ovaries in the first place. So I don't give a flying fark what you believe, hormonal contraception most certainly should be covered by health insurance.

If you think this issue is just about letting "whores" screw guys without consequences, then you are woefully, tragically uninformed.
 
2013-05-25 07:09:33 AM  

NewportBarGuy: themindiswatching: They're helping with a good cause though: the minister's lack of yachts.

I think Creflo Dollar is my favorite. That name just kicks all kinds of ass.


Say what? Oh, DOLLAR... never mind.
 
2013-05-25 07:13:39 AM  
A few years ago, I was at a dinner hosted by one of my most liberal friends (the head of the department of women's studies at a local college) who was singing the praises of Hobby Lobby because they had, apparently, had a very successful year financially and management gave everybody a raise because management understood that it was their employees who made them successful and thus shared the wealth.  I had to confess that I knew nothing about Hobby Lobby but, as a management consultant, I applauded their way of thinking because what differentiates a company from its competitors is, most often, the caliber of its employees.  To compensate them better than your competitors so they can stay with you and help you make more money is how capitalism works.

If Hobby Lobby now wants to get a waiver on covering certain health care costs, it should be allowed to do so.  If that is something that will cause employees to leave, then Hobby Lobby will lose the benefit of those employees.  If it doesn't matter to the employees and they stay, why should the government make a bit deal of it?
 
2013-05-25 07:16:09 AM  

CruiserTwelve: A business can't have religious beliefs.



Corporations are people, my friend.
 
2013-05-25 07:16:36 AM  
I understand Salvation Army and goodwill...but yarn and beads?
 
2013-05-25 07:19:15 AM  

Animatronik: I guess my whole issue with this is that I don't believe hormonal contraception or morning after pills should be covered by health insurance. Not a health issue.


Buh?

health [ helth ]   
general physical condition: the general condition of the body or mind, especially in terms of the presence or absence of illnesses, injuries, or impairments

Having a kid (or not) doesn't impact one's health?

Or, is it "personal choices aren't health issues?"  If so, should we pay for Mr. Fatty's fourth heart bypass?

Or, are you... ah, yeah, you're trolling.
 
2013-05-25 07:19:58 AM  
Let's take their argument to a logical conclusion. If a  company was founded and owned by a fundamentalist who does not believe in medical treatment (The Body, Bible Readers Fellowship,Church of the First born, et al.) , then they would not need to provide insurance at all!  God would be all they needed,
 
2013-05-25 07:20:57 AM  

Todd300: CruiserTwelve: A business can't have religious beliefs.


Corporations are people, my friend.



Oh, has someone possibly mentioned this already? Oh dear.
 
2013-05-25 07:21:15 AM  

ShawnDoc: moothemagiccow: Hobby Lobby is a farking terrible store. It's the size of walmart and has the organization of a bodega. Cheap Chinese knickknacks, 30% of which are broken, make up the front of the store. To the left you can get cheap chinese seasonal knickknacks, which is christmas shiat for most of the year.

In the back lies all the "hobby" stuff - arts & craft gear in aisles which are not labeled at all. You want paint? You better remember which of the 40 aisles has paint, because there are no signs anywhere in the store, excluding knickknack signs that say "bless this house"

If you want help, you better get farked because there are 2 visible employees on the floor at a time

How do they compete with Michaels then? We don't have Hobby Lobby out this way, and while Michaels has its flaws, it certainly sounds way better than what you describe.


1) Hobby Lobby has some things at much better prices. Here in Huntsville, AL, we don't have anything like a real art store (Dick Blick or w/e). Hobby Lobby sells sets of three copics for $20 and 6 for $40. Michael's sells them, for $55*. They also carry a different selection of paper. Hobby Lobby has some Strathmore stuff that Michael's just doesn't carry. While Canson Fanboy 11x17 is nicer than Strathmore 200 series, it costs a hell of a lot more.

2) Religion. This is Alabama. Some people shop at Hobby Lobby <i>because</i> of this shiat. I've stopped going there for things. I think it typically costs a tad more to get my stuff at Michael's, but with the coupons they offer, it means one trip and I know they have what I want.

*This is exceptionally stupid because they sell open stock markers for $8 each. Yes 6x8 = $48 < $55. I guess they're figuring people will have %40 off coupons?
 
2013-05-25 07:22:17 AM  

Animatronik: I guess my whole issue with this is that I don't believe hormonal contraception or morning after pills should be covered by health insurance. Not a health issue.Doesn't protect you from arcs even.

/wanna get poked, pay for your own damn protection or make your boyfriend pay.


My god, you're dumb.
 
2013-05-25 07:22:41 AM  
i swear to god i'm never f*cking shopping at Hobby Lobby ever again.  i'm sick of this sh*t.
 
2013-05-25 07:25:00 AM  

Scott_Free: Let's take their argument to a logical conclusion. If a  company was founded and owned by a fundamentalist who does not believe in medical treatment (The Body, Bible Readers Fellowship,Church of the First born, et al.) , then they would not need to provide insurance at all!  God would be all they needed,


If it were owned by someone, it wouldn't be a corporation.

If corporations can speak, who speaks for corporations?  Who decides "this corporation is Christian?"
 
2013-05-25 07:25:28 AM  
Praise be to Dick Blick!
 
2013-05-25 07:25:45 AM  
If your religion, or 'morals' require that you deny health care to others, get some actual morals.
 
2013-05-25 07:47:13 AM  

moothemagiccow: Hobby Lobby is a farking terrible store. It's the size of walmart and has the organization of a bodega. Cheap Chinese knickknacks, 30% of which are broken, make up the front of the store. To the left you can get cheap chinese seasonal knickknacks, which is christmas shiat for most of the year.

In the back lies all the "hobby" stuff - arts & craft gear in aisles which are not labeled at all. You want paint? You better remember which of the 40 aisles has paint, because there are no signs anywhere in the store, excluding knickknack signs that say "bless this house"

If you want help, you better get farked because there are 2 visible employees on the floor at a time


They do have a lot more model-building supplies than Michaels though. Found that out trying to (help my son) build a Viking ship for 8th grade history.
 
2013-05-25 07:49:37 AM  

Alphax: If your religion, or 'morals' require that you deny health care to others, get some actual morals.


Yeah about that, how many hundreds of times did Jeebus mention helping the poor in the bible?
 
2013-05-25 07:52:06 AM  
I am not from a place where this store exists, but I'll be honest, I saw Hobby Lobby and thought that prostitutes and Johns had formed a lobbying organization.
 
2013-05-25 07:52:09 AM  

MisterRonbo: Old and busted: corporations are people.

New hotness: corporations are ministries.

Cause Jesus was all about limited liability.


The real question is, what corporations will be next, angels? And when the dinosaurs inevitably die in their own filth and fall from grace, will that finally make them recognizable as devils?
 
2013-05-25 07:53:47 AM  

vartian: CruiserTwelve: A business can't have religious beliefs.

You'd think, right?

"Is religion the kind of right can only be exercised by a natural person? Well, the question nearly answers itself. ... It's not a purely personal right."

I know that argument won't go anywhere, but it still gives me the farking chills.


hell if that will fly then all businesses will be exempt.
 
2013-05-25 07:54:23 AM  
It's funny that they are closed on Sundays to honor Jesus. Jesus observed the sabath on Saturday.

I've been there a couple of times. The aisles are so narrow, making the store dark and crowded. It makes me nervous. It's a fire trap.
 
2013-05-25 08:00:04 AM  

Kahabut: This country loves it's corrupt money, but we love our corrupt religions as well.


Let's face it, the real religion here is capitalism. And in they eyes of many people, it's infallible.
 
2013-05-25 08:01:02 AM  
Here comes another boycott. It's getting so I can't remember who I'm supposed to patronize or not. I've been traumatized ever since a complete stranger in the check out a grocery store in Madison, WI started ranting about why I shouldn't be buying such and such a product I was carrying. "Hey, man, I didn't know."

If Hobby Lobby wants a waiver, they should just suck up to Obama instead of going full derp and filing a pointless lawsuit.
 
2013-05-25 08:09:44 AM  
Just what we need. Businesses suing to be exempt from state and federal laws. So what happens if they win? "Minimum wages laws are against our beliefs?" "Jebus tells us that safety regulations are tools of the devil?"
 
2013-05-25 08:09:58 AM  

dookdookdook: Around here at least, Michaels stores are less than half the size of Hobby Lobbys, and the prices are even a little higher


I wouldn't shop at either.
Support your local small time hobby shop before they all disappear.
/I go to the Hobby Stop in Bridgeport WV.
 
2013-05-25 08:16:31 AM  
Their first attempt didn't pass muster so hmmm lets try something more stupid than that.
 
2013-05-25 08:19:32 AM  
I've been to Hobby Lobby exactly once, and have no desire to return.  I'm not a fan of shopping anyway, I just want to get in, get my stuff, and get out.  It was worse than going to any store on Black Friday.  Cluttered, disorganized, pricing information mislabeled, etc.  And my trip was not during any weekend or holiday event.  I cannot begin to imagine the chaos during those times.

Made me appreciate on-line shopping all the more.
 
2013-05-25 08:23:35 AM  
fark you Hobby Lobby. First of all its not about "your religion" it's about saving a buck by not having to shell out more dough to the insurance companies. Nice cover though. I never liked them. Go into a store and find something made in the USA. I double dog dare you. You might find one thing...or if you search hard, two. All else is made in china or similar countries with human rights violations. Classy.
 
2013-05-25 08:32:24 AM  

moothemagiccow: Hobby Lobby is a farking terrible store. It's the size of walmart and has the organization of a bodega. Cheap Chinese knickknacks, 30% of which are broken, make up the front of the store. To the left you can get cheap chinese seasonal knickknacks, which is christmas shiat for most of the year.

In the back lies all the "hobby" stuff - arts & craft gear in aisles which are not labeled at all. You want paint? You better remember which of the 40 aisles has paint, because there are no signs anywhere in the store, excluding knickknack signs that say "bless this house"

If you want help, you better get farked because there are 2 visible employees on the floor at a time


/How true. and from what i have seen, they only hire hot girls. Hmmm. And yes, the stuff you can buy is cheap chinese crap that is put together as cheaply as possible for little wages for the worker. Junk. Way to support America by buying only from communist countries. Or do we actually make anything anymore in the USA, or have our trade agreements killed the USA economy by making it impossible for US businesses to pay a decent wage due to slave wages overseas?
 
2013-05-25 08:43:10 AM  

moothemagiccow: Hobby Lobby is a farking terrible store. It's the size of walmart and has the organization of a bodega. Cheap Chinese knickknacks, 30% of which are broken, make up the front of the store. To the left you can get cheap chinese seasonal knickknacks, which is christmas shiat for most of the year.

In the back lies all the "hobby" stuff - arts & craft gear in aisles which are not labeled at all. You want paint? You better remember which of the 40 aisles has paint, because there are no signs anywhere in the store, excluding knickknack signs that say "bless this house"

If you want help, you better get farked because there are 2 visible employees on the floor at a time


The one here in West Columbia is actually pretty well run and organized, but trying to get through the checkouts makes WalMart look well organized.   For the record:  the ONLY reason I go there is if my local hobby shop (plastic models) is closed and I need something ASAP.  But if they're going to pull this shiat, screw it - I'll make the 13 mile run to Michael's.  Same stuff and no religious derp.
 
2013-05-25 08:46:23 AM  

CruiserTwelve: A business can't have religious beliefs.


Money is free speech now, according to the infamous Citizens United bullsh*T that the Surpremely F*cked up Court of the United States passed.

so why couldn't a business in America be a person and have religious delusions??
 
2013-05-25 08:47:27 AM  
BarkingUnicorn:
It's satire, you idiot.  First clue is that it doesn't cite the case.

i.imgbox.com
 
2013-05-25 08:50:25 AM  

vartian: Duncan cited the Citizens United campaign-finance decision that said corporations had constitutional protections.

And a big thanks for that ever-lasting shiat burger, Supremes.


If other groups of people can have constitutional protections why not shareholders and union members?
 
2013-05-25 08:51:56 AM  
F*cking is the most popular hobby on earth.  Hobby Lobby needs to reevaluate its priorities.
 
2013-05-25 08:53:10 AM  
Hobby Lobby says it is a ministry and should not have to pay fines taxes under Obamacare

Terminology is key here people. Of course even Obama got the two confused
 
2013-05-25 08:55:21 AM  
another example of a few private individuals using Capital/wealth to bypass the Democratic (fading) process that has built this Nation and its Middle Class into the envy of the world.


yep, this is America being bled dry, by the same motherf*ckers who've benefited so much from our system.
 
2013-05-25 08:56:51 AM  

Peter von Nostrand: vartian: Duncan cited the Citizens United campaign-finance decision that said corporations had constitutional protections.

And a big thanks for that ever-lasting shiat burger, Supremes.

I don't know, Baby Love and Back In My Arms Again were pretty good songs


If they covered birth control, they could prevent Love Child from happening.
 
2013-05-25 08:59:17 AM  
Anybody who doesn't think crafting is a religion has clearly never hung out with SCA people.
 
2013-05-25 09:00:23 AM  

Oldiron_79: Alphax: If your religion, or 'morals' require that you deny health care to others, get some actual morals.

Yeah about that, how many hundreds of times did Jeebus mention helping the poor in the bible?


I believe what He said was, "Fark 'em, if they didn't want to die of leprosy then they'd get a damn job already"
 
2013-05-25 09:04:12 AM  
Lots of Hobby Lobby hate going on here. I have one near me, and shop there occasionally for art supplies. Their prices are pretty high, so I rarely buy anything without one of their 40% off coupons. Luckily, there's also a Michaels practically next door, so I almost always hit both stores the same day. The HL near me is very well organized, clean, and has lots of inventory. I don't know how people can compare them to WalMart. Sure, they sell a lot of chinese-produced stuff, but who doesn't? I respect their decision to be closed on Sundays so that families can spend some time together. I don't go to church myself, but I respect others who do. Setting aside one day a week from the corporate ratrace of commercialism isn't a bad idea, and that doesn't have to be based in religion.
 
2013-05-25 09:13:17 AM  
Religion is an Atheism
 
2013-05-25 09:17:53 AM  

HotWingAgenda: vartian: Duncan cited the Citizens United campaign-finance decision that said corporations had constitutional protections.

And a big thanks for that ever-lasting shiat burger, Supremes.

They'd have to be mentally defective to agree with that blind assertion.  You think any sane judge would say that corporations have the same right to privacy or right to bear arms that people have?  That would undermine the entire SEC, and give public corporations a justification to build their own private armies.

It would be almost like the burbclave world of Snow Crash

On second thought, fark yeah, let's get this party started.


Where have you been?

We started partying like it is 1999, back in 1999.
 
2013-05-25 09:20:44 AM  
As I wasn't raised a deist, my own Atheism makes sense, but I could never explain my dislike of crafts and scrapbooks. Now that I know it wasn't the foam shapes or fake foliage I rejected, it was Hobby Lobbyism itself. It is all starting to add up. Their "Procreation of Crafters" mandate is vitally important, as even many devoutly religious men will choose Onanism over feigning interest in popsicle sticks and pipe cleaners.
 
2013-05-25 09:25:49 AM  
I have an honest question, not looking for foaming-at-the-mouth response.

The Amish: to generalize, they are for religious reasons allowed to be conscientious objectors due to religious reasons, but must abide by their State's requirements as to vaccinations and reflectors/lights on their buggies/vehicles; with sort of a compromise as to educational requirements - even though the more orthodox among them do not want to - not even the reflectors. Where I grew up there currently is a huge fight regarding zoning/building permit/inspections.

Because of their lifestyle choice, much of their work can be inherently dangerous, (personally knew a young man who had to have an arm and a leg reattached - two separate occasions - working at his father's lumber mill.) But again they are given certain allowances for State/Federal farm/work safety and insurance requirements due to their religious beliefs.

While I understand comparing the Amish to a Hobby store chain may seem silly, why isn't it a question of scale as to individual Amish businesses?

Another silly example: If there was a Chick-fil-A store in a predominately Jewish neighborhood, and a majority of their employees were Jewish, should the government be able to require the company to close - at that one store - on Saturday instead of Sunday - as a compromise to the company's and community's beliefs? While blue laws have fallen mostly out of favor, there used to be gobs of Christian faith based regulation not too long ago. There are still 'community-standards' laws enforced here in Pat Robert's (CBN) backyard...

I understand the 'health issue trumps religious issue' argument, Christian Scientist parents and child healthcare 'choice' comes to mind; and I thought it should have been used to drive single payer health, but that didn't happen.

/I disagree btw with the lawsuit.
 
2013-05-25 09:32:19 AM  

Mugato: You know, if an employee of yours gets pregnant, you have to give her like 5 years maternity leave or whatever it's up to now. That might cost you a little more than letting the unholy harlot just have her Satanic baby killing potion.


You mean twelve weeks of unpaid leave? Twelve weeks is easy to mix up with five years, I understand the mistake.
 
2013-05-25 09:34:43 AM  

Skirl Hutsenreiter: Mugato: You know, if an employee of yours gets pregnant, you have to give her like 5 years maternity leave or whatever it's up to now. That might cost you a little more than letting the unholy harlot just have her Satanic baby killing potion.

You mean twelve weeks of unpaid leave? Twelve weeks is easy to mix up with five years, I understand the mistake.


Don't forge the stigma associated with taking that time!
 
2013-05-25 09:35:30 AM  
yet another reason to never shop at hobby lobby

/ does not shop with anyone that is closed on Sunday
 
2013-05-25 09:36:38 AM  

Linux_Yes: another example of a few private individuals using Capital/wealth to bypass the Democratic (fading) process that has built this Nation and its Middle Class into the envy of the world.


yep, this is America being bled dry, by the same motherf*ckers who've benefited so much from our system.




It is not that Hobby Lobby does not pay taxes-they do. They probably paid a higher percentage in taxes than Apple or Google. They also pay their full time employees at least double the minimum wage for what is obviously not the most skilled labor. It provides jobs for over 20,000 people. That is ten times more than Obama's green energy program did Citation

Hobby Lobby just does not want to pay for what is a private matter between you and whoever your swapping bodily fluids with. If it is none of their business why should they have to finance it? If money is a problem you can get condoms for free at Planned Parent hood or at most public health clinics.

Yup Hobby Lobby is so evil.

If you want to know what is bleeding's us dry:

In FY 2011, federal spending on means-tested welfare came to $717 billion. State contributions into federal programs added another $201 billion, and independent state programs contributed around $9 billion. Total spending from all sources reached $927 billion. It will exceed $1 Trillion in 2013.

Mean tested welfare spending is now second only to combined Social Security and MEDICARE spending and exceeds defense spending.

Dividing total means-tested aid by all persons in the bottom third of the income distribution results in average welfare spending of $9,040 per person in 2011, or around $36,000 for a family of four.In addition, most of these lower-income families have earned income. Average earnings within the whole group are typically about $16,000 per year per family, though in the midst of a recession, earnings will be lower. If average welfare aid and average earnings are combined, the total resources is likely to come to between $40,000 and $46,000 for each lower-income family with children in the U.S

For the past two decades, means-tested welfare or aid to the poor has been the fastest growing component of government spending, outstripping the combined growth of Medicare and Social Security spending, as well as the growth in education and defense spending. Over the 20-year period between FY 1989 and FY 2008, total means-tested spending increased by 292 percent over the period. The increase in combined Social Security and Medicare spending was 213 percent over the same period.

Means-tested spending on cash, food, and housing increased more rapidly (196 percent) than Social Security (174 percent). The growth in means-tested medical spending (448 percent) exceeded the growth in Medicare (376 percent).[2] The growth in means-tested aid greatly exceeded the growth in government spending on education (143 percent) and defense (126 percent)


Since the beginning of the War on Poverty, government has spent $19.8 trillion (in inflation-adjusted 2011 dollars) on means-tested welfare. In comparison, the cost of all military wars in U.S. history from the Revolutionary War through the current war in Afghanistan has been $6.98 trillion (in inflation-adjusted 2011 dollars).[3] The War on Poverty has cost three times as much as all other wars combined.
 
2013-05-25 09:41:09 AM  
Hobby Lobby's position is that Plan B is an abortifacient and that is why they want to be exempt from having to provide coverage. However, they do not oppose paying for birth control.

From an AP article:The Green family has said it has no moral objection to the use of other contraceptives and will continue covering them for its employees

The problem with their position is that both the morning after pill and hormonal birth control can prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the wall of the uterus. So, both forms of contraception are abortifacients according to their idiosyncratic usage of the term. Their moral stance is, therefore, incoherent.

I suspect they would like to be exempt from paying for both, and they are just using the abortion debate as a poorly thought out pretext.
 
2013-05-25 09:45:37 AM  

hasty ambush: It provides jobs for over 20,000 people


In the interest of accuracy: they have 13,000 full-time employees (in 41 states) who are eligible for benefits.

Here's a relevant quote from the owner during last year's original decision:


"It is by God's grace and provision that Hobby Lobby has endured. Therefore we seek to honor God by operating the company in a manner consistent with biblical principles."

/I suspect the Pope would take issue with their interpretation of biblical principles.
 
2013-05-25 09:49:56 AM  

themindiswatching: So Hobby Lobby admits to violating IRS rules on non-profits by, you know,  making a profit. Interesting.


Ummmm. They never applied for non profit status... they are challenging the contraception provision of ACA.
 
2013-05-25 09:50:42 AM  
If they succeed, it will suck as before to be Black in the South.

People will justify breaking any law based on Christianity. Ask the KKK.
 
2013-05-25 09:53:32 AM  

hardinparamedic: MmmmBacon: That sounds like an actionable claim for sexual discrimination.

They made the claim it was because of performance issues, and shuffled a few people around. Despite the fact that she had exceptional comments from her manager.

She told them to go fark themselves this week. Davis Bridal hired her for a full time position, non-commission making 1.6x what she was making at Hobby Lobby.


So the free market worked. And worked out well for her.
 
2013-05-25 10:03:23 AM  
I am okay with this...  not the opinion of the Hobby Lobby Owners, but with their right to ask this question, and take it to court.  Since the courts (and actually, Congress) have created all the rules about religions get treated this way, corporations are people and have the same protections, I see this as some of the first chickens coming home to roost for our government.

If you, as the government, say that a corporation is equal to the citizen, and has all the same rights, then here's your problem.  Hobby Lobby is going to do stuff like this.  deal with it.

I hope companies like this finally screw up Congress so bad, and tie up the rules, regulations, and more importantly, MONEY, so badly, Congress has to get off their butts and fix the real problem, and not just cover it up with pretty band-aids and hand the people a lollipop.
 
2013-05-25 10:05:29 AM  

hasty ambush: Linux_Yes: another example of a few private individuals using Capital/wealth to bypass the Democratic (fading) process that has built this Nation and its Middle Class into the envy of the world.


yep, this is America being bled dry, by the same motherf*ckers who've benefited so much from our system.

It is not that Hobby Lobby does not pay taxes-they do. They probably paid a higher percentage in taxes than Apple or Google. They also pay their full time employees at least double the minimum wage for what is obviously not the most skilled labor. It provides jobs for over 20,000 people. That is ten times more than Obama's green energy program did Citation

Hobby Lobby just does not want to pay for what is a private matter between you and whoever your swapping bodily fluids with. If it is none of their business why should they have to finance it? If money is a problem you can get condoms for free at Planned Parent hood or at most public health clinics.

Yup Hobby Lobby is so evil.

If you want to know what is bleeding's us dry:

In FY 2011, federal spending on means-tested welfare came to $717 billion. State contributions into federal programs added another $201 billion, and independent state programs contributed around $9 billion. Total spending from all sources reached $927 billion. It will exceed $1 Trillion in 2013.

Mean tested welfare spending is now second only to combined Social Security and MEDICARE spending and exceeds defense spending.

Dividing total means-tested aid by all persons in the bottom third of the income distribution results in average welfare spending of $9,040 per person in 2011, or around $36,000 for a family of four.In addition, most of these lower-income families have earned income. Average earnings within the whole group are typically about $16,000 per year per family, though in the midst of a recession, earnings will be lower. If average welfare aid and average earnings are combined, the total resources is likely to come t ...


Well, what you do with your salary is also your business, not your employers. I guess they should not be required to pay you for your labor. Or perhaps they should be able to dictate what you spend your pay on, banning any purchases that offend their beliefs. Which would you prefer in the name of corporate religious liberty?
 
2013-05-25 10:06:23 AM  

december: Hobby Lobby's position is that Plan B is an abortifacient and that is why they want to be exempt from having to provide coverage. However, they do not oppose paying for birth control.

From an AP article:The Green family has said it has no moral objection to the use of other contraceptives and will continue covering them for its employees

The problem with their position is that both the morning after pill and hormonal birth control can prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the wall of the uterus. So, both forms of contraception are abortifacients according to their idiosyncratic usage of the term. Their moral stance is, therefore, incoherent.

I suspect they would like to be exempt from paying for both, and they are just using the abortion debate as a poorly thought out pretext.


And, of course, since neither plan B nor hormonal birth control actually prevent implantation of a fertilized egg, the whole thing is a bit moot.
 
2013-05-25 10:08:04 AM  
So can I start a company and get out paying medical bills by claiming my religion only believes in faith healing?
 
2013-05-25 10:12:26 AM  
I tell you, the list of companies to boycott due to either their political derp or their business practices is getting quite long these days.
 
2013-05-25 10:25:50 AM  

hasty ambush: It is not that Hobby Lobby does not pay taxes-they do. They probably paid a higher percentage in taxes than Apple or Google. They also pay their full time employees at least double the minimum wage for what is obviously not the most skilled labor. It provides jobs for over 20,000 people. That is ten times more than Obama's green energy program did Citation


If the Daily Caller says it, it must be true.

I also love how none of your welfare stuff was cited.
 
2013-05-25 10:26:17 AM  
I guess Hobby Lobby will have to modify their employment applications:

Are you a fornicating whore?  If Yes, tear up this application and work for Michael's.  Slut.
[] Yes
[] No
 
2013-05-25 10:29:24 AM  

hasty ambush: Since the beginning of the War on Poverty, government has spent $19.8 trillion (in inflation-adjusted 2011 dollars) on means-tested welfare. In comparison, the cost of all military wars in U.S. history from the Revolutionary War through the current war in Afghanistan has been $6.98 trillion (in inflation-adjusted 2011 dollars).[3] The War on Poverty has cost three times as much as all other wars combined.


It seems to me that the cost of fighting poverty should be at least three times (better, ten times) the cost of wars.  Why would we want those numbers to be even close to similar?
 
2013-05-25 10:32:35 AM  

themindiswatching: So Hobby Lobby admits to violating IRS rules on non-profits by, you know, making a profit. Interesting.


Came for this.
 
2013-05-25 10:45:25 AM  

logic523: hasty ambush: Since the beginning of the War on Poverty, government has spent $19.8 trillion (in inflation-adjusted 2011 dollars) on means-tested welfare. In comparison, the cost of all military wars in U.S. history from the Revolutionary War through the current war in Afghanistan has been $6.98 trillion (in inflation-adjusted 2011 dollars).[3] The War on Poverty has cost three times as much as all other wars combined.

It seems to me that the cost of fighting poverty should be at least three times (better, ten times) the cost of wars.  Why would we want those numbers to be even close to similar?


You're talking about a group of people who complain that the War on Poverty was a failure while simultaneously posting things like this:

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-05-25 11:05:18 AM  
Good.  Slam them for violating their "non-profit" status, and ruin them.
 
2013-05-25 11:39:00 AM  

moothemagiccow: Hobby Lobby is a farking terrible store. It's the size of walmart and has the organization of a bodega. Cheap Chinese knickknacks, 30% of which are broken, make up the front of the store. To the left you can get cheap chinese seasonal knickknacks, which is christmas shiat for most of the year.

In the back lies all the "hobby" stuff - arts & craft gear in aisles which are not labeled at all. You want paint? You better remember which of the 40 aisles has paint, because there are no signs anywhere in the store, excluding knickknack signs that say "bless this house"

If you want help, you better get farked because there are 2 visible employees on the floor at a time


Funny, my Hobby Lobby is organized like MJDesigns was, and they too didn't have signs highlighting the aisles. JoAnn Fabrics is a joke of a store, mostly catering to seamstresses and sewing (bad if you're looking for woodcrafts or coin collecting, or even model rockets). To date, the ONLY general hobby store in my area is Hobby Lobby, so I shop when I need something hobby-related.
 
2013-05-25 11:46:52 AM  
How about enough with all the extra taxes, Obama?

Keep it simple, just one tax.
 
2013-05-25 11:55:11 AM  

bmihura: How about enough with all the extra taxes, Obama?

Keep it simple, just one tax.


Sounds good.  Make it 100%, then give to each according to his need.
 
2013-05-25 12:00:34 PM  
The only good thing about Hobby Lobby is that some of the materials artsy people like to use have remarkable properties. Scrap bookers like archival grade non-acidic double sided zero flex tape. Oil painters want oil paints that'll be stable for hundreds of years. And the modified PVC's they sell as modeling clays, that's some serious shiat right there.

The fact they're closed on Sunday? Just a decision they made. Personally, if I ran a retail business I'd be closed on Monday and Tuesday.
 
2013-05-25 12:08:35 PM  
I can't wait for the fun when a corporation wants to use the Citizens United decision to justify using their 2nd Amendment rights.
 
2013-05-25 12:11:56 PM  

logic523: bmihura: How about enough with all the extra taxes, Obama?

Keep it simple, just one tax.

Sounds good.  Make it 100%, then give to each according to his need.


Ah, I see you're familiar with argumentum ad absurdum.
 
2013-05-25 12:38:45 PM  
I never knew this about Hobby Lobby. Now I know what crafty store to avoid.
 
2013-05-25 12:39:04 PM  

hardinparamedic: BarkingUnicorn: You're pissed because they gave your girlfriend a solid gold civil rights case?

Problem with that: 1) It's Arkansas, and 2) She'd have to fight a protracted court battle on the budget of a college sophomore.


Look, if there are records, she has 2 years to file a claim.  I'd say gather what evidence you can, quietly find a lawyer who should be more than happy to take an open and shut case (especially if they're looking to get their name out there) and go for it.
 http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/equalcompensation.cfm


I still really regret not going after an employer because I found another job and wanted to leave that crap behind.  And later on found out they f--ked over other people in a similar fashion after I left.  Should've fought it out just so other people didn't have to go through that crap.  At least she should think about it.  Otherwise this sh-t is never going to change.

 
2013-05-25 01:29:32 PM  

Linux_Yes: F*cking is the most popular hobby on earth.  Hobby Lobby needs to reevaluate its priorities.


It's only a hobby because religious folk think it makes their invisible friend angry when you try and go professional.
 
2013-05-25 01:48:00 PM  

hasty ambush: Linux


Interesting info.  why is it that no one complained in the 80's when we started shipping our steel industry overseas and started outsourcing American jobs for cheap labor?

seems to me that the best way to reduce poverty and have tax paying jobs is to stop sending them overseas because some stockholder/owner felt he didn't make enough money last year.

and why have we sent so many jobs to communist china??  yea, its a communist state. just ask the CIA.

i hear the Right whine about taxes and the 'weight' of the poor/unemployed, yet the CONgress looks the other way when a company owner (Apple loves cheap overseas labor) ship his company manufacturing overseas, yet keeps the headquarters here in America because he likes our system.

the Rich and Big Business have our system/Nation gamed in their favor and it hurts the other half of this Country.  they get away with it because they own our Legislators.

that's not Democracy, that is Plutocracy.
 
2013-05-25 01:53:29 PM  
Repeat after me: Employers cannot impose their religious preferences upon employees.
 
2013-05-25 02:05:47 PM  

BolloxReader: Repeat after me: Employers cannot impose their religious preferences upon employees.


remind hasty ambush that this Nation is still a Democracy, although a fading one, and that the Separation of Church and State can never be infringed.  at least without a Revolution.  those Church folks think they are going to turn this Nation into another Theocratic sh*thole like they have in the middle east, they have another Think coming....
 
2013-05-25 02:11:07 PM  

HotWingAgenda: Kahabut: HotWingAgenda: vartian: Duncan cited the Citizens United campaign-finance decision that said corporations had constitutional protections.

And a big thanks for that ever-lasting shiat burger, Supremes.

They'd have to be mentally defective to agree with that blind assertion.  You think any sane judge would say that corporations have the same right to privacy or right to bear arms that people have?  That would undermine the entire SEC, and give public corporations a justification to build their own private armies.

It would be almost like the burbclave world of Snow Crash

On second thought, fark yeah, let's get this party started.

You haven't been paying attention.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_military_company

Turns out I was wronger than you thought.  Those jackasses specifically gave corporations free rein to field their own armies, not even for security contracting to the government.

Writing for the majority Chief Justice Roberts opined, "If the first amendment applies to Corporations, surely the second amendment also applies. Since Corporations have no history of abusing their power, we expect that they will employ their private armies with restraint and discretion,"


Sounds like somebody somewhere doesn't understand sarcasm.
 
2013-05-25 02:11:38 PM  

Animatronik: I guess my whole issue with this is that I don't believe hormonal contraception or morning after pills should be covered by health insurance. Not a health issue.Doesn't protect you from arcs even.

/wanna get poked, pay for your own damn protection or make your boyfriend pay.


First of all, pain control. First thing they do when a woman has chronic pain is eliminate that time of the month for her because hormonal peaks and valleys increase the already-present pain.  Secondly, there are a lot of drugs used today that result in miscarriage or damage fetuses. Third, medicine considers human birth to be a tremendously traumatic event. Until modern medicine, childbirth was the leading cause of death for women of childbearing age. The human form with our huge heads and our tiny pelvises are ill-suited to childbirth. For example, we are the only animal that literally tears its own pelvic bone during childbirth.

I understand I'm probably feeding a troll here, but birth control is a part of modern medicine. Period.
 
2013-05-25 02:22:04 PM  

ghostwind: MaudlinMutantMollusk: Who would Jesus deprive of health care?

The Romans?


They go, the house?
 
2013-05-25 02:26:03 PM  
Given how much farkers whinge about religious institutions having tax exempt 501(c)(3) status, it's interesting that now the cry is "they're not a non-profit so they don't deserve a religious exemption" when Hobby Lobby has chosen to incorporate as a taxable entity.
 
2013-05-25 02:56:36 PM  

Linux_Yes: BolloxReader: Repeat after me: Employers cannot impose their religious preferences upon employees.

remind hasty ambush that this Nation is still a Democracy, although a fading one, and that the Separation of Church and State can never be infringed.  at least without a Revolution.  those Church folks think they are going to turn this Nation into another Theocratic sh*thole like they have in the middle east, they have another Think coming....


So in a fading democracy ( I will explain the concept of a Republic to you some other time), in which Congress shall make no law establishing a state religion or interfering with the free practice of a religion you can be compelled to pay for somebody' else's birth control-an issue which is none is none business and a matter or personal privacy except that they can take your money for it.?

I see nothing in this case that states Hobby Lobby is trying to establish a state religion or even using tax revenue or government  facilities  to practice its religion.  Hobby Lobby is not even refusing to pay taxes.

What Hobby Lobby is trying to be exempt from it a law that fines it for refusing to use its money (not the government's)  for something that goes against its religious principles.

Mob rule does not get any prettier just because it calls itself democracy, one of the purposes of the Constitution is to protect the rights of the monority form the tyranny of the majority.
 
2013-05-25 03:03:42 PM  
Jesus said "Blessed are the meek." Poor people have got Jesus on their side...what more do they want???
 
msP
2013-05-25 03:10:10 PM  
Love Hobby Lobby, better than Joanns, cheaper than Michaels, will never shop there again.
 
2013-05-25 03:11:16 PM  
This is the problem with having employers in charge of health care for employees.
It's possible to see both sides, sanely. I don't think Hobby Lobby should get an exemption under the criteria offered, and I deplore the Citizens United decision, but I'm not sure it's necessarily a fair law in the first place. When the government is fine with shifting the responsibility of providing health care/insurance to private corporations like Hobby Lobby and Papa John's, it doesn't seem quite fair to then dictate to them the minute terms of that care. Just on general principle. It's a strange, strange healthcare system or lack of one that we have developed in this country.
Also, there is a real difference between contraception like the morning after pill and condoms on the one hand, which prevent fertilization, and the morning after pill, which prevents implantation of a fertilized egg. I may not personally agree with the viewpoint (I'm just unsure and have no problem admitting it), but if a company's corporate leadership truly believes that life begins at conception; it's hard to not see at least a point of argumentation that perhaps there is a problem with compelling them to pay for what they believe is murder. I'm interested in other alternatives to that - like what other ways as a society we could pick up the slack if Hobby Lobby DOES get the exemption; I don't believe the country is so uncreative that we couldn't figure out such alternatives.
 
2013-05-25 03:17:34 PM  

BolloxReader: Repeat after me: Employers cannot impose their religious preferences upon employees.


They are not imposing anything. They do not require you to participate in a religious activity, force yo to pray or anything like that. They do not even prevent you from using your own money to buy your own birth control.

You are imposing your lifestyle on them by insisting they help finance your exchanging of bodily fluids with others.

Of course this begs the question of why work for a company whose beliefs so strongly contradict your own? It would be like and green party type working for Exxon or a anti gun rights/anti-second amendment type working for a high capacity magazine manufacturer.
 
2013-05-25 03:21:44 PM  

Bit'O'Gristle: First of all its not about "your religion" it's about saving a buck by not having to shell out more dough to the insurance companies. Nice cover though.


I don't know. The businesses like this that back it up by staying closed on Sundays tend to lose a lot of money by doing so. We have a couple of smaller, local ones, that have been quite dedicated in staying closed in the face of what must be enormous economic pressure to open their doors, and I have to applaud the consistency. I don't think it's just a cover. Some people actually have genuine religious beliefs and try to reflect those in their businesses practices. Some people fail, but some people do try.
 
2013-05-25 03:24:41 PM  

Mega Steve: Jesus said "Blessed are the meek." Poor people have got Jesus on their side...what more do they want???


And Jesus said, let Caesar send forth his Legions. Let these legions go forth and with the point of the sword and point of the spear collect charitable contributions for the poor.
 
2013-05-25 03:28:50 PM  
So if this goes through, what's next for for profits?

Owner is a Jehovah's Witness, so no blood transfusions covered by employee healthcare?

Owner is a Christian Scientist so they won't cover vaccines?
 
2013-05-25 03:52:32 PM  
Animatronik I guess my whole issue with this is that I don't believe hormonal contraception or morning after pills should be covered by health insurance. Not a health issue.Doesn't protect you from arcs even.

/wanna get poked, pay for your own damn protection or make your boyfriend pay.


1. Hormonal birth control isn't just for preventing pregnancy, its also for treating several health problems, like polycystic ovarian syndrome, endometriosis, etc.

2. Insurance companies (when not having right-wing idiots like Hobby Lobby trying to interfere) are generally happy to cover birth control, as covering pregnancy costs them much, much more.

3. Viagra is usually covered by insurance and it isn't used for reasons 1 and 2.

4. Getting insurance that covers birth control IS PAYING FOR YOUR OWN DAMN PROTECTION.

Do the world a favor and educate yourself before you open your ignorant mouth again.
 
2013-05-25 03:55:58 PM  
Hasty Ambush

You are imposing your lifestyle on them by insisting they help finance your exchanging of bodily fluids with others.

Yeah, how dare I want my health insurance to cover the treatment of various debilitating hormone conditions that are treatable through hormonal birth control .

Would you be okay with a Scientology-owned business refusing to allow their employees to get psych meds? Or Jehovah's Witness owned busiensses refusing to cover blood transfusions?
 
2013-05-25 04:16:33 PM  

CruiserTwelve: A business can't have religious beliefs.


Done in one - and I don't agree with CT often. If you're a for-profit company, you're required to follow the same laws every other for-profit company follows, regardless of the personal proclivities of your owners or directors.
 
2013-05-25 04:27:16 PM  

MeanJean: Hasty Ambush

You are imposing your lifestyle on them by insisting they help finance your exchanging of bodily fluids with others.

Yeah, how dare I want my health insurance to cover the treatment of various debilitating hormone conditions that are treatable through hormonal birth control .

Would you be okay with a Scientology-owned business refusing to allow their employees to get psych meds? Or Jehovah's Witness owned busiensses refusing to cover blood transfusions?


If you want to argue that  they should have to cove the use of birth control pill sfor a medical purpose other than birth control fine but you know that is not the crux of what this argument is about.
 
2013-05-25 04:28:32 PM  

Animatronik: I guess my whole issue with this is that I don't believe hormonal contraception or morning after pills should be covered by health insurance. Not a health issue.Doesn't protect you from arcs even.


What you believe and reality are two different things.  Probably often, I would guess, but specifically in this case, there are other women's health issues at play, not just preventing (or otherwise dealing with) an unwanted pregnancy.

Even if your beliefs were congruent with reality, however. even if birth control were the ONLY issue here, it's still a question of a corporation trying to justify defying the law on religious grounds.  If you don't think it makes sense for the government to mandate this level of health coverage, then oppose such health coverage --- change the system, in other words, or get out of the game, but don't try to cheat.

Oh, yeah, that's right, the religious right DID fight this law tooth and nail... and lost.  Nobody appreciates them trying to do an end run after the game's been called.
 
2013-05-25 04:31:52 PM  

Mr. Right: If Hobby Lobby now wants to get a waiver on covering certain health care costs, it should be allowed to do so.


Only if I can get a waiver on paying taxes towards your stupid wars.  You really want an "a la carte" pay-only-for-what-you-approve-of taxation system in the USA?  Because it would cut both ways, I assure you.

Unless, of course, you mean it should only work that way for conservatives.  But I'm sure you're not that hypocritical.
 
2013-05-25 04:35:33 PM  

hasty ambush: MeanJean: Hasty Ambush

You are imposing your lifestyle on them by insisting they help finance your exchanging of bodily fluids with others.

Yeah, how dare I want my health insurance to cover the treatment of various debilitating hormone conditions that are treatable through hormonal birth control .

Would you be okay with a Scientology-owned business refusing to allow their employees to get psych meds? Or Jehovah's Witness owned busiensses refusing to cover blood transfusions?

If you want to argue that  they should have to cove the use of birth control pill sfor a medical purpose other than birth control fine but you know that is not the crux of what this argument is about.


If your employer feels drinking alcohol is sinful, should they have the right to ban you from spending your wages on beer? Should your employer have the right to require you to spend your paid vacation time on a missionary trip for their church?
 
2013-05-25 04:36:32 PM  

fenianfark: So if this goes through, what's next for for profits?

Owner is a Jehovah's Witness, so no blood transfusions covered by employee healthcare?

Owner is a Christian Scientist so they won't cover vaccines?


Owner is an atheist and has to provide prayer rooms on the business premises and provded paid time off during the work day for prayer.
 
2013-05-25 04:39:07 PM  

Linux_Yes: F*cking is the most popular hobby on earth.  Hobby Lobby needs to reevaluate its priorities.


It's a silly thing to get worked up over, but calling what themselves a "hobby" store is pretty dumb.  They're an arts-and-crafts store.  We already have a word for that: "arts and crafts."  "Hobby" means something else entirely.

It would be like if I opened a store selling hair-care products and named it "The Body-Building Barn," y'know, because hair has body?  Get it?  Maybe I think that's a clever name but I'd still have an endless parade of fit, muscular men marching into my store and then walking out a few minutes later confused and disappointed.  And that would be pointless, because I've already got a bedroom for that.
 
2013-05-25 04:46:13 PM  

MyRandomName: hardinparamedic: MmmmBacon: That sounds like an actionable claim for sexual discrimination.

They made the claim it was because of performance issues, and shuffled a few people around. Despite the fact that she had exceptional comments from her manager.

She told them to go fark themselves this week. Davis Bridal hired her for a full time position, non-commission making 1.6x what she was making at Hobby Lobby.


So the free market worked. And worked out well for her.


"Hey, my sister left that guy who was beating her up."

"Did she press charges?"

"No, but she's dating someone else now, and he seems pretty cool."

"See?  I TOLD YOU that blind dates work out in the long run!"


/Also, I think you're in the running for "dumbest post in the thread," so you've got that going for you.
 
2013-05-25 05:07:22 PM  

MeanJean: Hasty Ambush

You are imposing your lifestyle on them by insisting they help finance your exchanging of bodily fluids with others.

Yeah, how dare I want my health insurance to cover the treatment of various debilitating hormone conditions that are treatable through hormonal birth control .

Would you be okay with a Scientology-owned business refusing to allow their employees to get psych meds? Or Jehovah's Witness owned busiensses refusing to cover blood transfusions?



Well, of course Hasty Ambush would be ok with that, MeanJean, because he's not stupid, cruel, AND hypocritical.
 
2013-05-25 05:17:13 PM  

BolloxReader: Animatronik: I guess my whole issue with this is that I don't believe hormonal contraception or morning after pills should be covered by health insurance. Not a health issue.Doesn't protect you from arcs even.

/wanna get poked, pay for your own damn protection or make your boyfriend pay.

First of all, pain control. First thing they do when a woman has chronic pain is eliminate that time of the month for her because hormonal peaks and valleys increase the already-present pain.  Secondly, there are a lot of drugs used today that result in miscarriage or damage fetuses. Third, medicine considers human birth to be a tremendously traumatic event. Until modern medicine, childbirth was the leading cause of death for women of childbearing age. The human form with our huge heads and our tiny pelvises are ill-suited to childbirth. For example, we are the only animal that literally tears its own pelvic bone during childbirth.

I understand I'm probably feeding a troll here, but birth control is a part of modern medicine. Period.


^All of this.  Thank you.  Biologist girlfriend and I often converse on how humans got the short end of the evolutionary stick in many respects, reproduction being one of the most terrifying.

/Another is our vertical spine.  We'd have a lot less back pain if we were built horizontally with a balancing tail like maniraptors.
//Prefer to get my fabric at Jo-Ann anyway.  Neat thing about them is they also have a policy that their fabric sources can't have discriminatory practices, poor working conditions, or child labor.
 
2013-05-25 05:56:38 PM  

ciberido: Mr. Right: If Hobby Lobby now wants to get a waiver on covering certain health care costs, it should be allowed to do so.

Only if I can get a waiver on paying taxes towards your stupid wars.  You really want an "a la carte" pay-only-for-what-you-approve-of taxation system in the USA?  Because it would cut both ways, I assure you.

Unless, of course, you mean it should only work that way for conservatives.  But I'm sure you're not that hypocritical.


Health insurance is nothing like a tax going into general funds.  Nice try, idiot.
 
2013-05-25 06:04:38 PM  
It's a Ministry?

CONNECT THE GOD-DAMNED DOTS!
 
2013-05-25 06:05:57 PM  
Is Hobby Lobby a Mormon business?
 
2013-05-25 06:24:02 PM  

Linux_Yes: CruiserTwelve: A business can't have religious beliefs.

Money is free speech now, according to the infamous Citizens United bullsh*T that the Surpremely F*cked up Court of the United States passed.

so why couldn't a business in America be a person and have religious delusions??


Let me save you some typing: SCROTUS tends to gets the message across.
 
2013-05-25 06:25:18 PM  
Old and busted:  Life begins at conception

New hotness: Life begins before conception
 
2013-05-25 06:36:42 PM  

Mr. Right: ciberido: Mr. Right: If Hobby Lobby now wants to get a waiver on covering certain health care costs, it should be allowed to do so.

Only if I can get a waiver on paying taxes towards your stupid wars.  You really want an "a la carte" pay-only-for-what-you-approve-of taxation system in the USA?  Because it would cut both ways, I assure you.

Unless, of course, you mean it should only work that way for conservatives.  But I'm sure you're not that hypocritical.

Health insurance is nothing like a tax going into general funds.  Nice try, idiot.


This.  Hobby Lobby is not trying to avoid paying taxes but if you are working for them they are trying to avoid  paying for your birth control and being fined for not doing so.  Your body your business, their money their business.
 
2013-05-25 07:10:50 PM  
The bottom line is that things like abortion and the morning after pill are things that a majority of Americans are either opposed to on moral grounds, or don't wish to have to pay for on moral grounds, even if they're OK with a woman having her right to choose. That is not an unreasonable point of view, and we're not talking about the feelings or beliefs of some whacko fringe group.

The best thing would be for corporations to give people vouchers for insurance. You want morning after pills, you pick a policy that offers them. Against blood transfusions or organ transplants? Fine, pick a policy that won't pay for them.

That's fair, and that's reasonable.

What's not reasonable is the government forcing this particular issue, which it should not be doing in a democratic republic.

Look at the numbers: Obamacare is destined to fail, in the sense that it will put private insurers out of business and result in a complete government takeover of the health business (yeah I know, it makes me sick to be sticking up for health insurance companies).  This birth control/morning after pill business is just one aspect of the government knowing what's best for people and stomping on anyone who gets in their way.
 
2013-05-25 07:34:35 PM  

Doesn't the basic rule of Dodge v Ford mean that the only duty of a for-profit corporation is profit for the shareholders? Trying to society a more moral place just isn't the company's job.

No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.


december: The problem with their position is that both the morning after pill and hormonal birth control can prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the wall of the uterus.


Last I heard, only the latter can. The original research wasn't clear, but it's recently been shown that the morning after pill only works by preventing ovulation in the first place; when ovulation has already occured, it doesn't do a damn thing.
 
2013-05-25 07:36:18 PM  
Hasty Ambush
If you want to argue that  they should have to cove the use of birth control pill sfor a medical purpose other than birth control fine but you know that is not the crux of what this argument is about.

So now I have to provide documentation to my employer that my pills are for a disease and not for sex, eh? What the hell happened to patient privacy?

And what is to stop a sympathetic doctor from simply claimining that I have menstrual problems when I actually don't?

And nice job dodging my questions about theoretical situations regarding a Jehovah's Witness owned busienss and a Sciententolgy owned buisness.

Enemy of the State
The bottom line is that things like abortion and the morning after pill are things that a majority of Americans are either opposed to on moral grounds, or don't wish to have to pay for on moral grounds, even if they're OK with a woman having her right to choose. That is not an unreasonable point of view, and we're not talking about the feelings or beliefs of some whacko fringe group.

This is about HORMONAL BIRTH CONTROL, not abortion or the morning-after pill. Most Americans don't oppose the use of hormonal birth control.

And the company isn't paying for it, the insurance that the employee pays for is paying for it.
 
2013-05-25 07:55:09 PM  

StreetlightInTheGhetto: Look, if there are records, she has 2 years to file a claim.  I'd say gather what evidence you can, quietly find a lawyer who should be more than happy to take an open and shut case (especially if they're looking to get their name out there) and go for it.
 http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/equalcompensation.cfm


I'll have her look into it. Personally, I'd love to see her fark over the guy who was her boss for his sexist BS.
 
2013-05-25 08:49:57 PM  

Mr. Right: ciberido: Mr. Right: If Hobby Lobby now wants to get a waiver on covering certain health care costs, it should be allowed to do so.

Only if I can get a waiver on paying taxes towards your stupid wars.  You really want an "a la carte" pay-only-for-what-you-approve-of taxation system in the USA?  Because it would cut both ways, I assure you.

Unless, of course, you mean it should only work that way for conservatives.  But I'm sure you're not that hypocritical.

Health insurance is nothing like a tax going into general funds.  Nice try, idiot.


fim.413chan.net
I suppose it hurts to feel so foolish.  But I would have thought you'd have gotten used to it by now.
 
2013-05-25 08:51:49 PM  

abb3w: Doesn't the basic rule of Dodge v Ford mean that the only duty of a for-profit corporation is profit for the shareholders?


Hobby Lobby is privately held.  Shareholders are not an issue.
 
2013-05-25 08:54:52 PM  

enemy of the state: Look at the numbers: Obamacare is destined to fail, in the sense that it will put private insurers out of business and result in a complete government takeover of the health business (yeah I know, it makes me sick to be sticking up for health insurance companies).  This birth control/morning after pill business is just one aspect of the government knowing what's best for people and stomping on anyone who gets in their way.


I know.  Makes me sick.  Everyone knows that that's religion's job.
 
2013-05-25 09:09:19 PM  
Profiles of the 18 companies currently suing for exemptions from the birth control mandate.

http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2013/03/07/the-18-for-profit-compa ni es-fighting-to-eliminate-the-birth-control-benefit/

Very mixed bag of rulings on their suits.  SCOTUS, soon as possible.
 
2013-05-25 09:20:24 PM  

enemy of the state: Look at the numbers: Obamacare is destined to fail, in the sense that it will put private insurers out of business and result in a complete government takeover of the health business (yeah I know, it makes me sick to be sticking up for health insurance companies).  This birth control/morning after pill business is just one aspect of the government knowing what's best for people and stomping on anyone who gets in their way.



Wouldn't that be letting the people who pay for their health insurance, getting to decide what they get, and not letting their employers pick and choose what benefits they can have?  I don't see this as stomping on anyone who gets in their way.  If you are paying to be insured, why should your employer (granted they pay about half your policy), get to dictate what healthcare they can deny you based on religious grounds? Where does this end if they get a favorable ruling.
 
2013-05-25 09:25:03 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Hobby Lobby is privately held. Shareholders are not an issue.


That means that the stock isn't publicly traded, not that there aren't shareholders.
 
2013-05-25 09:36:24 PM  

abb3w: BarkingUnicorn: Hobby Lobby is privately held. Shareholders are not an issue.

That means that the stock isn't publicly traded, not that there aren't shareholders.


It means that the corporation does not operate under the same rules that govern publicly traded corporations.  Particularly the one that requires a corporation to put shareholders' pecuniary interests first.
 
2013-05-25 09:43:34 PM  
The real takeaway from the article, for me, is that Hobby Lobby has come out as pro-abortion.

Good to know that there are good Christian corporations out there that support abortions.
 
2013-05-25 09:49:32 PM  

hasty ambush: protect the rights of the monority form the tyranny of the majority.


Christians are not the minority here, nor are they in the moral right by denying medical access to people for the crime of having a job under them.
 
2013-05-25 09:50:11 PM  

hasty ambush: You are imposing your lifestyle on them by insisting they help finance your exchanging of bodily fluids with others.


You are ignorant.
 
2013-05-25 10:23:04 PM  
It's okay Hobby Lobby, I know you wouldn't like my slutty cash, so I'll do you a favor by not shopping there anymore.

Signed,
Artsy, Crafty, Pill-taking Harlot.
 
2013-05-25 11:34:22 PM  
Christians are farking nuts. Bring on the lions I say.
 
2013-05-26 12:25:54 AM  

Johnny Swank: Christians are farking nuts. Bring on the lions I say.


The lions would probably do a better job running the company.
 
2013-05-26 01:09:52 AM  

MeanJean: Hasty Ambush
If you want to argue that  they should have to cove the use of birth control pill sfor a medical purpose other than birth control fine but you know that is not the crux of what this argument is about.

So now I have to provide documentation to my employer that my pills are for a disease and not for sex, eh? What the hell happened to patient privacy?

And what is to stop a sympathetic doctor from simply claimining that I have menstrual problems when I actually don't?

And nice job dodging my questions about theoretical situations regarding a Jehovah's Witness owned busienss and a Sciententolgy owned buisness.

Enemy of the State
The bottom line is that things like abortion and the morning after pill are things that a majority of Americans are either opposed to on moral grounds, or don't wish to have to pay for on moral grounds, even if they're OK with a woman having her right to choose. That is not an unreasonable point of view, and we're not talking about the feelings or beliefs of some whacko fringe group.

This is about HORMONAL BIRTH CONTROL, not abortion or the morning-after pill. Most Americans don't oppose the use of hormonal birth control.


Uh, except for the fact that the article focuses on the morning after pill, and secondarily on IUDs. So, no, it doesn't appear that this is about hormonal birth control. If that's what you want to argue about, fine, and that's certainly an argument elsewhere, but it doesn't seem to be the focus here, and definitely not the ALL-CAPS focus.

Enemy of the State makes some good points.
 
2013-05-26 01:38:08 AM  
Perhaps we could develop drugs for all of these "female problems" that don't prevent fertilization or pregnancy.
 
2013-05-26 01:59:11 AM  

Sir VG: I don't shop Hobby Lobby. Not by decision but because even if I wanted to, there isn't one anywhere near here.

But for a business to offer their employees insurance that deals with stuff like birth control/morning after pill isn't condoning it. If the employee shares your values, they simply won't use those methods.

Then again, "my religion is the only correct religion and my values are the only correct values and the rest of you can all suck it." This is the general mentality of way too many religious people in the US today and that's why I got out of organized religion. (But I'm not an atheist.)


Actually, I don't shop there because every one I've been in has been worthless. Never had any organization, or what I needed. Just a waste of time for me to try, when I can go elsewhere and get what I need quickly.
 
2013-05-26 03:59:02 AM  

Philip Francis Queeg: hasty ambush: MeanJean: Hasty Ambush

You are imposing your lifestyle on them by insisting they help finance your exchanging of bodily fluids with others.

Yeah, how dare I want my health insurance to cover the treatment of various debilitating hormone conditions that are treatable through hormonal birth control .

Would you be okay with a Scientology-owned business refusing to allow their employees to get psych meds? Or Jehovah's Witness owned busiensses refusing to cover blood transfusions?

If you want to argue that  they should have to cove the use of birth control pill sfor a medical purpose other than birth control fine but you know that is not the crux of what this argument is about.

If your employer feels drinking alcohol is sinful, should they have the right to ban you from spending your wages on beer? Should your employer have the right to require you to spend your paid vacation time on a missionary trip for their church?


Should a business have the right to ban you from smoking -ever?- Does a business have the right to stop you from eating greasy foods? The list goes on...
 
2013-05-26 04:02:57 AM  

Ranger Rover: Uh, except for the fact that the article focuses on the morning after pill, and secondarily on IUDs.


The morning after pill and IUDs have absolutely nothing to do with abortion. Both prevent fertilization, they do not abort a fetus.

Enemy of the State makes points at all. Just a strawman.
 
2013-05-26 04:50:27 AM  

log_jammin: Ranger Rover: Uh, except for the fact that the article focuses on the morning after pill, and secondarily on IUDs.

The morning after pill and IUDs have absolutely nothing to do with abortion. Both prevent fertilization, they do not abort a fetus.

Enemy of the State makes points at all. Just a strawman.


Did I say they had anything to do with abortion?
Do YOU understand what a strawman is? You might be trying hard to create one, with that little abortion trick. I didn't say a word about abortion; I just corrected someone who didn't seem to have read the article and was claiming that the issue here is hormonal birth control. The article doesn't, unless I overlooked something, have much if anything to do with hormonal birth control. Its primary focuses are the morning-after pill and IUDs.
Also, since you brought it up, your opinion is just that. Although unquestionably different from things like RU-486, any forms of emergency contraception that seek to block the implantation of a fertilized egg can definitely trigger arguments re definitions of abortion/life/etc - an admittedly intractable argument and one I'm not necessarily trying to start here (and don't even know how I feel about personally. In the overall category of "tough issues," this may be the toughest, so please don't think I'm coming at this from some super pro-life perspective. I'm simply not sure, and see compelling points on both sides).
Enemy of the State, if I recall correctly, pointed out that there are valid medical distinctions at issue here, and strong feelings of the part of many Americans, including American employers. How is that a strawman? Sometimes, on fark, I get the sneaking suspicion that "strawman" and "trolling" are just alternate labels for "an opinion that opposes mine and that I'm too lazy/under-educated/afraid of being wrong that I need to justify not engaging a decent point that someone else has made." There are real trolls, and real strawmen, but I can't see here how Enemy of the State has put one up.

You could prove me wrong, though, and I'd be delighted to continue the conversation. Seriously, I sometimes feel like the only person in America who doesn't know exactly how they feel about the contraception/emergency contraception/abortion debate.

 
2013-05-26 05:13:48 AM  

Ranger Rover: Did I say they had anything to do with abortion?
Do YOU understand what a strawman is? You might be trying hard to create one, with that little abortion trick.


this here was in the comment you replied to

The bottom line is that things like abortion and the morning after pill are things that a majority of Americans are either opposed to on moral grounds, or don't wish to have to pay for on moral grounds, even if they're OK with a woman having her right to choose. That is not an unreasonable point of view, and we're not talking about the feelings or beliefs of some whacko fringe group.

Know who said that?  Enemy of the State. Know who you said had valid points? Enemy of the State.

Ranger Rover: The article doesn't, unless I overlooked something, have much if anything to do with hormonal birth control. Its primary focuses are the morning-after pill and IUDs.


which are not abortions, as  Enemy of the State was trying to equate them to. you know, the guy you said had "valid points".

Ranger Rover: Also, since you brought it up, your opinion is just that.


Yes, my opinions are just that, opinions. And I am entitled to mine just as much as you are entitled to yours. But the kicker is, you and EotS are not entitled to your own facts. and the fact is that "The morning after pill and IUDs have absolutely nothing to do with abortion. " despite his attempt to claim they are.

Ranger Rover: Enemy of the State, if I recall correctly, pointed out that there are valid medical distinctions at issue here, and strong feelings of the part of many Americans, including American employers. How is that a strawman?


then reread his comment instead of trying to remember it. He wasn't pointing out "valid medical distinctions". His argument was people object to abortion and don't ant their taxes to pay for it, therefore insurance should offer vouchers for people who want emergency contraception on their insurance so people who object "on moral grounds" to abortion don't have to pay for it.

emergency contraception is not abortion. so it is irrelevant what percentage of Americans are against it.

Ranger Rover: get the sneaking suspicion that "strawman" and "trolling" are just alternate labels for "an opinion that opposes mine and that I'm too lazy/under-educated/afraid of being wrong that I need to justify not engaging a decent point that someone else has made."


then you should probably have you "sneaking suspicion meter" repaired.
 
2013-05-26 05:48:16 AM  

abb3w: Last I heard, only the latter can. The original research wasn't clear, but it's recently been shown that the morning after pill only works by preventing ovulation in the first place; when ovulation has already occured, it doesn't do a damn thing.


if you find a link to that data, please post it. If true that would certainly take some of the winds out of HL's case.

edit: nevermind -- found it myself.

http://ec.princeton.edu/questions/ecwork.html
 
2013-05-26 05:54:35 AM  

log_jammin: Ranger Rover: Did I say they had anything to do with abortion?
Do YOU understand what a strawman is? You might be trying hard to create one, with that little abortion trick.

this here was in the comment you replied to

The bottom line is that things like abortion and the morning after pill are things that a majority of Americans are either opposed to on moral grounds, or don't wish to have to pay for on moral grounds, even if they're OK with a woman having her right to choose. That is not an unreasonable point of view, and we're not talking about the feelings or beliefs of some whacko fringe group.

Know who said that?  Enemy of the State. Know who you said had valid points? Enemy of the State.

Ranger Rover: The article doesn't, unless I overlooked something, have much if anything to do with hormonal birth control. Its primary focuses are the morning-after pill and IUDs.

which are not abortions, as  Enemy of the State was trying to equate them to. you know, the guy you said had "valid points".

Ranger Rover: Also, since you brought it up, your opinion is just that.

Yes, my opinions are just that, opinions. And I am entitled to mine just as much as you are entitled to yours. But the kicker is, you and EotS are not entitled to your own facts. and the fact is that "The morning after pill and IUDs have absolutely nothing to do with abortion. " despite his attempt to claim they are.

Ranger Rover: Enemy of the State, if I recall correctly, pointed out that there are valid medical distinctions at issue here, and strong feelings of the part of many Americans, including American employers. How is that a strawman?

then reread his comment instead of trying to remember it. He wasn't pointing out "valid medical distinctions". His argument was people object to abortion and don't ant their taxes to pay for it, therefore insurance should offer vouchers for people who want emergency contraception on their insurance so people who object "on moral grounds" to abortion don't have ...


Enemy of the State said: Things like abortion and the morning after pill. Abortion AND the morning after pill. Doesn't seem to be a huge struggle to equate them - when you start by differentiating them. Conjunctions are fun and mean things!

Also, still haven't responded to the fact that you're wrong. IUDs and the morning after pill don't always prevent fertilization - they make implantation of a fertilized egg difficult, which changes the ballgame in terms of the "life" and "abortion" debate. (Furrow, et al., "Bioethics," "The Blurry Distinction Between Contraception and Abortion"; Webster v. Reproductive Health Services 492 U.S. at 561.)

Point taken in re-reading EotS's comment. I should have done that. I still do think, however, that you have a misunderstanding of the straw men phenomenon in logic; or if you don't (since you don't seem dumb or uneducated) you're intentionally twisting it. I don't know what I think of his voucher suggestion, but I don't think it is a "straw man" - which occurs when people intentionally misrepresent their opponent's argument in order to provide themselves with something more convenient to attack.
 
2013-05-26 06:09:28 AM  

december: abb3w: Last I heard, only the latter can. The original research wasn't clear, but it's recently been shown that the morning after pill only works by preventing ovulation in the first place; when ovulation has already occured, it doesn't do a damn thing.

if you find a link to that data, please post it. If true that would certainly take some of the winds out of HL's case.

edit: nevermind -- found it myself.

http://ec.princeton.edu/questions/ecwork.html


If this is true (and it seems it come from a good source) then log jammin, I'm operating under some older information regarding this particular issue, and have no problem admitting that. The better for new knowledge, and my apologies. At least on this issue....
 
2013-05-26 06:33:42 AM  

Ranger Rover: Things like abortion and the morning after pill. Abortion AND the morning after pill. Doesn't seem to be a huge struggle to equate them - when you start by differentiating them.


Of course. So when I mention child molesters, rapists, Ranger Rover, and the mentally ill all together, I'm trying to differentiate them.  right? In no way would I ever list two things due to similarities, but differences. so when I say that society objects to child molesters, rapists, Ranger Rover, and the mentally ill because of their morality, then I'm  differentiating them.

Ranger Rover: Also, still haven't responded to the fact that you're wrong. IUDs and the morning after pill don't always prevent fertilization - they make implantation of a fertilized egg difficult, which changes the ballgame in terms of the "life" and "abortion" debate.


To make an informed choice, women must know that ECPs-like the birth control pill, patch, ring, shot, and implant,76 and even like breastfeeding77-prevent pregnancy primarily by delaying or inhibiting ovulation and inhibiting fertilization, but may at times inhibit implantation of a fertilized egg in the endometrium. However, women should also be informed that the best available evidence indicates that ECPs prevent pregnancy by mechanisms that do not involve interference with post-fertilization events.
ECPs do not cause abortion
78 or harm an established pregnancy. Pregnancy begins with implantation according to medical authorities such as the US FDA, the National Institutes of Health79 and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG).80

Ranger Rover: Point taken in re-reading EotS's comment. I should have done that. I still do think, however, that you have a misunderstanding of the straw men phenomenon in logic; or if you don't (since you don't seem dumb or uneducated) you're intentionally twisting it. I don't know what I think of his voucher suggestion, but I don't think it is a "straw man" - which occurs when people intentionally misrepresent their opponent's argument in order to provide themselves with something more convenient to attack.



you seem to have a difficult time with words and things, so I'm not going to bother trying to explain it to you again.
 
2013-05-26 01:10:34 PM  
Ranger Rover

Uh, except for the fact that the article focuses on the morning after pill, and secondarily on IUDs.

Whoopsie. My bad. My fault for not actually reading the article. I thought this was the usual hissy-fit about hormonal birth control.
 
2013-05-26 03:05:33 PM  

log_jammin: Ranger Rover: Things like abortion and the morning after pill. Abortion AND the morning after pill. Doesn't seem to be a huge struggle to equate them - when you start by differentiating them.

Of course. So when I mention child molesters, rapists, Ranger Rover, and the mentally ill all together, I'm trying to differentiate them.  right? In no way would I ever list two things due to similarities, but differences. so when I say that society objects to child molesters, rapists, Ranger Rover, and the mentally ill because of their morality, then I'm  differentiating them.

And I'm the one who has trouble with words.

Ranger Rover: Also, still haven't responded to the fact that you're wrong. IUDs and the morning after pill don't always prevent fertilization - they make implantation of a fertilized egg difficult, which changes the ballgame in terms of the "life" and "abortion" debate.

To make an informed choice, women must know that ECPs-like the birth control pill, patch, ring, shot, and implant,76 and even like breastfeeding77-prevent pregnancy primarily by delaying or inhibiting ovulation and inhibiting fertilization, but may at times inhibit implantation of a fertilized egg in the endometrium. However, women should also be informed that the best available evidence indicates that ECPs prevent pregnancy by mechanisms that do not involve interference with post-fertilization events.
ECPs do not cause abortion78 or harm an established pregnancy. Pregnancy begins with implantation according to medical authorities such as the US FDA, the National Institutes of Health79 and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG).80


So, now, you attempt to argue with me by at least partially agreeing with my point? And what seems to be HL's biggest concern? Sweet, now we're getting somewhere. I guess you were just bored and wanted to stretch it out as long as possible. Well, welcome to the "facts" of people like me and EotS! It's nice to see you come around to the only point I was really trying to make, so readily, while still presenting it in the guise of an argument!

Ranger Rover: Point taken in re-reading EotS's comment. I should have done that. I still do think, however, that you have a misunderstanding of the straw men phenomenon in logic; or if you don't (since you don't seem dumb or uneducated) you're intentionally twisting it. I don't know what I think of his voucher suggestion, but I don't think it is a "straw man" - which occurs when peopl ...

Oh, no. Now you've also lost sight of the fact that I was trying to explain the concept to you, as you clearly misunderstood it, not the other way around. It's okay. You must need this pretty bad. I won't interfere any more.
 
2013-05-26 03:10:12 PM  

MeanJean: Ranger Rover

Uh, except for the fact that the article focuses on the morning after pill, and secondarily on IUDs.

Whoopsie. My bad. My fault for not actually reading the article. I thought this was the usual hissy-fit about hormonal birth control.


Eh, I've done the same so many times I can't really fault it in others. :) Yeah, they're different arguments, at least to a certain extent, and I was just frustrated at people trying to conflate them and to use the logic of one for the other; that's why I jumped on you.
 
2013-05-26 05:40:49 PM  
Linux_Yes:
seems to me that the best way to reduce poverty and have tax paying jobs is to stop sending them overseas because some stockholder/owner felt he didn't make enough money last year.

But the man on the radio told me that paying taxes is evil and the good companies are sending our jobs overseas so that americans don't have to deal with the burden of paying income taxes.
 
2013-05-26 05:43:24 PM  

dittybopper: It's a Ministry?

CONNECT THE GOD-DAMNED DOTS!


Tell me something I don't know.
 
2013-05-26 07:47:54 PM  

Mister Peejay: dittybopper: It's a Ministry?

CONNECT THE GOD-DAMNED DOTS!

Tell me something I don't know.


Commodity sodomy grants autonomy takes it all way

/You're lyin' through your teeth.
 
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