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(STLToday)   Hobby Lobby says it is a ministry and should not have to pay fines under Obamacare   (stltoday.com) divider line 215
    More: Unlikely, Hobby Lobby, ministry, individual mandate  
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10205 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 May 2013 at 5:28 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-25 08:16:31 AM  
Their first attempt didn't pass muster so hmmm lets try something more stupid than that.
 
2013-05-25 08:19:32 AM  
I've been to Hobby Lobby exactly once, and have no desire to return.  I'm not a fan of shopping anyway, I just want to get in, get my stuff, and get out.  It was worse than going to any store on Black Friday.  Cluttered, disorganized, pricing information mislabeled, etc.  And my trip was not during any weekend or holiday event.  I cannot begin to imagine the chaos during those times.

Made me appreciate on-line shopping all the more.
 
2013-05-25 08:23:35 AM  
fark you Hobby Lobby. First of all its not about "your religion" it's about saving a buck by not having to shell out more dough to the insurance companies. Nice cover though. I never liked them. Go into a store and find something made in the USA. I double dog dare you. You might find one thing...or if you search hard, two. All else is made in china or similar countries with human rights violations. Classy.
 
2013-05-25 08:32:24 AM  

moothemagiccow: Hobby Lobby is a farking terrible store. It's the size of walmart and has the organization of a bodega. Cheap Chinese knickknacks, 30% of which are broken, make up the front of the store. To the left you can get cheap chinese seasonal knickknacks, which is christmas shiat for most of the year.

In the back lies all the "hobby" stuff - arts & craft gear in aisles which are not labeled at all. You want paint? You better remember which of the 40 aisles has paint, because there are no signs anywhere in the store, excluding knickknack signs that say "bless this house"

If you want help, you better get farked because there are 2 visible employees on the floor at a time


/How true. and from what i have seen, they only hire hot girls. Hmmm. And yes, the stuff you can buy is cheap chinese crap that is put together as cheaply as possible for little wages for the worker. Junk. Way to support America by buying only from communist countries. Or do we actually make anything anymore in the USA, or have our trade agreements killed the USA economy by making it impossible for US businesses to pay a decent wage due to slave wages overseas?
 
2013-05-25 08:43:10 AM  

moothemagiccow: Hobby Lobby is a farking terrible store. It's the size of walmart and has the organization of a bodega. Cheap Chinese knickknacks, 30% of which are broken, make up the front of the store. To the left you can get cheap chinese seasonal knickknacks, which is christmas shiat for most of the year.

In the back lies all the "hobby" stuff - arts & craft gear in aisles which are not labeled at all. You want paint? You better remember which of the 40 aisles has paint, because there are no signs anywhere in the store, excluding knickknack signs that say "bless this house"

If you want help, you better get farked because there are 2 visible employees on the floor at a time


The one here in West Columbia is actually pretty well run and organized, but trying to get through the checkouts makes WalMart look well organized.   For the record:  the ONLY reason I go there is if my local hobby shop (plastic models) is closed and I need something ASAP.  But if they're going to pull this shiat, screw it - I'll make the 13 mile run to Michael's.  Same stuff and no religious derp.
 
2013-05-25 08:46:23 AM  

CruiserTwelve: A business can't have religious beliefs.


Money is free speech now, according to the infamous Citizens United bullsh*T that the Surpremely F*cked up Court of the United States passed.

so why couldn't a business in America be a person and have religious delusions??
 
2013-05-25 08:47:27 AM  
BarkingUnicorn:
It's satire, you idiot.  First clue is that it doesn't cite the case.

i.imgbox.com
 
2013-05-25 08:50:25 AM  

vartian: Duncan cited the Citizens United campaign-finance decision that said corporations had constitutional protections.

And a big thanks for that ever-lasting shiat burger, Supremes.


If other groups of people can have constitutional protections why not shareholders and union members?
 
2013-05-25 08:51:56 AM  
F*cking is the most popular hobby on earth.  Hobby Lobby needs to reevaluate its priorities.
 
2013-05-25 08:53:10 AM  
Hobby Lobby says it is a ministry and should not have to pay fines taxes under Obamacare

Terminology is key here people. Of course even Obama got the two confused
 
2013-05-25 08:55:21 AM  
another example of a few private individuals using Capital/wealth to bypass the Democratic (fading) process that has built this Nation and its Middle Class into the envy of the world.


yep, this is America being bled dry, by the same motherf*ckers who've benefited so much from our system.
 
2013-05-25 08:56:51 AM  

Peter von Nostrand: vartian: Duncan cited the Citizens United campaign-finance decision that said corporations had constitutional protections.

And a big thanks for that ever-lasting shiat burger, Supremes.

I don't know, Baby Love and Back In My Arms Again were pretty good songs


If they covered birth control, they could prevent Love Child from happening.
 
2013-05-25 08:59:17 AM  
Anybody who doesn't think crafting is a religion has clearly never hung out with SCA people.
 
2013-05-25 09:00:23 AM  

Oldiron_79: Alphax: If your religion, or 'morals' require that you deny health care to others, get some actual morals.

Yeah about that, how many hundreds of times did Jeebus mention helping the poor in the bible?


I believe what He said was, "Fark 'em, if they didn't want to die of leprosy then they'd get a damn job already"
 
2013-05-25 09:04:12 AM  
Lots of Hobby Lobby hate going on here. I have one near me, and shop there occasionally for art supplies. Their prices are pretty high, so I rarely buy anything without one of their 40% off coupons. Luckily, there's also a Michaels practically next door, so I almost always hit both stores the same day. The HL near me is very well organized, clean, and has lots of inventory. I don't know how people can compare them to WalMart. Sure, they sell a lot of chinese-produced stuff, but who doesn't? I respect their decision to be closed on Sundays so that families can spend some time together. I don't go to church myself, but I respect others who do. Setting aside one day a week from the corporate ratrace of commercialism isn't a bad idea, and that doesn't have to be based in religion.
 
2013-05-25 09:13:17 AM  
Religion is an Atheism
 
2013-05-25 09:17:53 AM  

HotWingAgenda: vartian: Duncan cited the Citizens United campaign-finance decision that said corporations had constitutional protections.

And a big thanks for that ever-lasting shiat burger, Supremes.

They'd have to be mentally defective to agree with that blind assertion.  You think any sane judge would say that corporations have the same right to privacy or right to bear arms that people have?  That would undermine the entire SEC, and give public corporations a justification to build their own private armies.

It would be almost like the burbclave world of Snow Crash

On second thought, fark yeah, let's get this party started.


Where have you been?

We started partying like it is 1999, back in 1999.
 
2013-05-25 09:20:44 AM  
As I wasn't raised a deist, my own Atheism makes sense, but I could never explain my dislike of crafts and scrapbooks. Now that I know it wasn't the foam shapes or fake foliage I rejected, it was Hobby Lobbyism itself. It is all starting to add up. Their "Procreation of Crafters" mandate is vitally important, as even many devoutly religious men will choose Onanism over feigning interest in popsicle sticks and pipe cleaners.
 
2013-05-25 09:25:49 AM  
I have an honest question, not looking for foaming-at-the-mouth response.

The Amish: to generalize, they are for religious reasons allowed to be conscientious objectors due to religious reasons, but must abide by their State's requirements as to vaccinations and reflectors/lights on their buggies/vehicles; with sort of a compromise as to educational requirements - even though the more orthodox among them do not want to - not even the reflectors. Where I grew up there currently is a huge fight regarding zoning/building permit/inspections.

Because of their lifestyle choice, much of their work can be inherently dangerous, (personally knew a young man who had to have an arm and a leg reattached - two separate occasions - working at his father's lumber mill.) But again they are given certain allowances for State/Federal farm/work safety and insurance requirements due to their religious beliefs.

While I understand comparing the Amish to a Hobby store chain may seem silly, why isn't it a question of scale as to individual Amish businesses?

Another silly example: If there was a Chick-fil-A store in a predominately Jewish neighborhood, and a majority of their employees were Jewish, should the government be able to require the company to close - at that one store - on Saturday instead of Sunday - as a compromise to the company's and community's beliefs? While blue laws have fallen mostly out of favor, there used to be gobs of Christian faith based regulation not too long ago. There are still 'community-standards' laws enforced here in Pat Robert's (CBN) backyard...

I understand the 'health issue trumps religious issue' argument, Christian Scientist parents and child healthcare 'choice' comes to mind; and I thought it should have been used to drive single payer health, but that didn't happen.

/I disagree btw with the lawsuit.
 
2013-05-25 09:32:19 AM  

Mugato: You know, if an employee of yours gets pregnant, you have to give her like 5 years maternity leave or whatever it's up to now. That might cost you a little more than letting the unholy harlot just have her Satanic baby killing potion.


You mean twelve weeks of unpaid leave? Twelve weeks is easy to mix up with five years, I understand the mistake.
 
2013-05-25 09:34:43 AM  

Skirl Hutsenreiter: Mugato: You know, if an employee of yours gets pregnant, you have to give her like 5 years maternity leave or whatever it's up to now. That might cost you a little more than letting the unholy harlot just have her Satanic baby killing potion.

You mean twelve weeks of unpaid leave? Twelve weeks is easy to mix up with five years, I understand the mistake.


Don't forge the stigma associated with taking that time!
 
2013-05-25 09:35:30 AM  
yet another reason to never shop at hobby lobby

/ does not shop with anyone that is closed on Sunday
 
2013-05-25 09:36:38 AM  

Linux_Yes: another example of a few private individuals using Capital/wealth to bypass the Democratic (fading) process that has built this Nation and its Middle Class into the envy of the world.


yep, this is America being bled dry, by the same motherf*ckers who've benefited so much from our system.




It is not that Hobby Lobby does not pay taxes-they do. They probably paid a higher percentage in taxes than Apple or Google. They also pay their full time employees at least double the minimum wage for what is obviously not the most skilled labor. It provides jobs for over 20,000 people. That is ten times more than Obama's green energy program did Citation

Hobby Lobby just does not want to pay for what is a private matter between you and whoever your swapping bodily fluids with. If it is none of their business why should they have to finance it? If money is a problem you can get condoms for free at Planned Parent hood or at most public health clinics.

Yup Hobby Lobby is so evil.

If you want to know what is bleeding's us dry:

In FY 2011, federal spending on means-tested welfare came to $717 billion. State contributions into federal programs added another $201 billion, and independent state programs contributed around $9 billion. Total spending from all sources reached $927 billion. It will exceed $1 Trillion in 2013.

Mean tested welfare spending is now second only to combined Social Security and MEDICARE spending and exceeds defense spending.

Dividing total means-tested aid by all persons in the bottom third of the income distribution results in average welfare spending of $9,040 per person in 2011, or around $36,000 for a family of four.In addition, most of these lower-income families have earned income. Average earnings within the whole group are typically about $16,000 per year per family, though in the midst of a recession, earnings will be lower. If average welfare aid and average earnings are combined, the total resources is likely to come to between $40,000 and $46,000 for each lower-income family with children in the U.S

For the past two decades, means-tested welfare or aid to the poor has been the fastest growing component of government spending, outstripping the combined growth of Medicare and Social Security spending, as well as the growth in education and defense spending. Over the 20-year period between FY 1989 and FY 2008, total means-tested spending increased by 292 percent over the period. The increase in combined Social Security and Medicare spending was 213 percent over the same period.

Means-tested spending on cash, food, and housing increased more rapidly (196 percent) than Social Security (174 percent). The growth in means-tested medical spending (448 percent) exceeded the growth in Medicare (376 percent).[2] The growth in means-tested aid greatly exceeded the growth in government spending on education (143 percent) and defense (126 percent)


Since the beginning of the War on Poverty, government has spent $19.8 trillion (in inflation-adjusted 2011 dollars) on means-tested welfare. In comparison, the cost of all military wars in U.S. history from the Revolutionary War through the current war in Afghanistan has been $6.98 trillion (in inflation-adjusted 2011 dollars).[3] The War on Poverty has cost three times as much as all other wars combined.
 
2013-05-25 09:41:09 AM  
Hobby Lobby's position is that Plan B is an abortifacient and that is why they want to be exempt from having to provide coverage. However, they do not oppose paying for birth control.

From an AP article:The Green family has said it has no moral objection to the use of other contraceptives and will continue covering them for its employees

The problem with their position is that both the morning after pill and hormonal birth control can prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the wall of the uterus. So, both forms of contraception are abortifacients according to their idiosyncratic usage of the term. Their moral stance is, therefore, incoherent.

I suspect they would like to be exempt from paying for both, and they are just using the abortion debate as a poorly thought out pretext.
 
2013-05-25 09:45:37 AM  

hasty ambush: It provides jobs for over 20,000 people


In the interest of accuracy: they have 13,000 full-time employees (in 41 states) who are eligible for benefits.

Here's a relevant quote from the owner during last year's original decision:


"It is by God's grace and provision that Hobby Lobby has endured. Therefore we seek to honor God by operating the company in a manner consistent with biblical principles."

/I suspect the Pope would take issue with their interpretation of biblical principles.
 
2013-05-25 09:49:56 AM  

themindiswatching: So Hobby Lobby admits to violating IRS rules on non-profits by, you know,  making a profit. Interesting.


Ummmm. They never applied for non profit status... they are challenging the contraception provision of ACA.
 
2013-05-25 09:50:42 AM  
If they succeed, it will suck as before to be Black in the South.

People will justify breaking any law based on Christianity. Ask the KKK.
 
2013-05-25 09:53:32 AM  

hardinparamedic: MmmmBacon: That sounds like an actionable claim for sexual discrimination.

They made the claim it was because of performance issues, and shuffled a few people around. Despite the fact that she had exceptional comments from her manager.

She told them to go fark themselves this week. Davis Bridal hired her for a full time position, non-commission making 1.6x what she was making at Hobby Lobby.


So the free market worked. And worked out well for her.
 
2013-05-25 10:03:23 AM  
I am okay with this...  not the opinion of the Hobby Lobby Owners, but with their right to ask this question, and take it to court.  Since the courts (and actually, Congress) have created all the rules about religions get treated this way, corporations are people and have the same protections, I see this as some of the first chickens coming home to roost for our government.

If you, as the government, say that a corporation is equal to the citizen, and has all the same rights, then here's your problem.  Hobby Lobby is going to do stuff like this.  deal with it.

I hope companies like this finally screw up Congress so bad, and tie up the rules, regulations, and more importantly, MONEY, so badly, Congress has to get off their butts and fix the real problem, and not just cover it up with pretty band-aids and hand the people a lollipop.
 
2013-05-25 10:05:29 AM  

hasty ambush: Linux_Yes: another example of a few private individuals using Capital/wealth to bypass the Democratic (fading) process that has built this Nation and its Middle Class into the envy of the world.


yep, this is America being bled dry, by the same motherf*ckers who've benefited so much from our system.

It is not that Hobby Lobby does not pay taxes-they do. They probably paid a higher percentage in taxes than Apple or Google. They also pay their full time employees at least double the minimum wage for what is obviously not the most skilled labor. It provides jobs for over 20,000 people. That is ten times more than Obama's green energy program did Citation

Hobby Lobby just does not want to pay for what is a private matter between you and whoever your swapping bodily fluids with. If it is none of their business why should they have to finance it? If money is a problem you can get condoms for free at Planned Parent hood or at most public health clinics.

Yup Hobby Lobby is so evil.

If you want to know what is bleeding's us dry:

In FY 2011, federal spending on means-tested welfare came to $717 billion. State contributions into federal programs added another $201 billion, and independent state programs contributed around $9 billion. Total spending from all sources reached $927 billion. It will exceed $1 Trillion in 2013.

Mean tested welfare spending is now second only to combined Social Security and MEDICARE spending and exceeds defense spending.

Dividing total means-tested aid by all persons in the bottom third of the income distribution results in average welfare spending of $9,040 per person in 2011, or around $36,000 for a family of four.In addition, most of these lower-income families have earned income. Average earnings within the whole group are typically about $16,000 per year per family, though in the midst of a recession, earnings will be lower. If average welfare aid and average earnings are combined, the total resources is likely to come t ...


Well, what you do with your salary is also your business, not your employers. I guess they should not be required to pay you for your labor. Or perhaps they should be able to dictate what you spend your pay on, banning any purchases that offend their beliefs. Which would you prefer in the name of corporate religious liberty?
 
2013-05-25 10:06:23 AM  

december: Hobby Lobby's position is that Plan B is an abortifacient and that is why they want to be exempt from having to provide coverage. However, they do not oppose paying for birth control.

From an AP article:The Green family has said it has no moral objection to the use of other contraceptives and will continue covering them for its employees

The problem with their position is that both the morning after pill and hormonal birth control can prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the wall of the uterus. So, both forms of contraception are abortifacients according to their idiosyncratic usage of the term. Their moral stance is, therefore, incoherent.

I suspect they would like to be exempt from paying for both, and they are just using the abortion debate as a poorly thought out pretext.


And, of course, since neither plan B nor hormonal birth control actually prevent implantation of a fertilized egg, the whole thing is a bit moot.
 
2013-05-25 10:08:04 AM  
So can I start a company and get out paying medical bills by claiming my religion only believes in faith healing?
 
2013-05-25 10:12:26 AM  
I tell you, the list of companies to boycott due to either their political derp or their business practices is getting quite long these days.
 
2013-05-25 10:25:50 AM  

hasty ambush: It is not that Hobby Lobby does not pay taxes-they do. They probably paid a higher percentage in taxes than Apple or Google. They also pay their full time employees at least double the minimum wage for what is obviously not the most skilled labor. It provides jobs for over 20,000 people. That is ten times more than Obama's green energy program did Citation


If the Daily Caller says it, it must be true.

I also love how none of your welfare stuff was cited.
 
2013-05-25 10:26:17 AM  
I guess Hobby Lobby will have to modify their employment applications:

Are you a fornicating whore?  If Yes, tear up this application and work for Michael's.  Slut.
[] Yes
[] No
 
2013-05-25 10:29:24 AM  

hasty ambush: Since the beginning of the War on Poverty, government has spent $19.8 trillion (in inflation-adjusted 2011 dollars) on means-tested welfare. In comparison, the cost of all military wars in U.S. history from the Revolutionary War through the current war in Afghanistan has been $6.98 trillion (in inflation-adjusted 2011 dollars).[3] The War on Poverty has cost three times as much as all other wars combined.


It seems to me that the cost of fighting poverty should be at least three times (better, ten times) the cost of wars.  Why would we want those numbers to be even close to similar?
 
2013-05-25 10:32:35 AM  

themindiswatching: So Hobby Lobby admits to violating IRS rules on non-profits by, you know, making a profit. Interesting.


Came for this.
 
2013-05-25 10:45:25 AM  

logic523: hasty ambush: Since the beginning of the War on Poverty, government has spent $19.8 trillion (in inflation-adjusted 2011 dollars) on means-tested welfare. In comparison, the cost of all military wars in U.S. history from the Revolutionary War through the current war in Afghanistan has been $6.98 trillion (in inflation-adjusted 2011 dollars).[3] The War on Poverty has cost three times as much as all other wars combined.

It seems to me that the cost of fighting poverty should be at least three times (better, ten times) the cost of wars.  Why would we want those numbers to be even close to similar?


You're talking about a group of people who complain that the War on Poverty was a failure while simultaneously posting things like this:

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-05-25 11:05:18 AM  
Good.  Slam them for violating their "non-profit" status, and ruin them.
 
2013-05-25 11:39:00 AM  

moothemagiccow: Hobby Lobby is a farking terrible store. It's the size of walmart and has the organization of a bodega. Cheap Chinese knickknacks, 30% of which are broken, make up the front of the store. To the left you can get cheap chinese seasonal knickknacks, which is christmas shiat for most of the year.

In the back lies all the "hobby" stuff - arts & craft gear in aisles which are not labeled at all. You want paint? You better remember which of the 40 aisles has paint, because there are no signs anywhere in the store, excluding knickknack signs that say "bless this house"

If you want help, you better get farked because there are 2 visible employees on the floor at a time


Funny, my Hobby Lobby is organized like MJDesigns was, and they too didn't have signs highlighting the aisles. JoAnn Fabrics is a joke of a store, mostly catering to seamstresses and sewing (bad if you're looking for woodcrafts or coin collecting, or even model rockets). To date, the ONLY general hobby store in my area is Hobby Lobby, so I shop when I need something hobby-related.
 
2013-05-25 11:46:52 AM  
How about enough with all the extra taxes, Obama?

Keep it simple, just one tax.
 
2013-05-25 11:55:11 AM  

bmihura: How about enough with all the extra taxes, Obama?

Keep it simple, just one tax.


Sounds good.  Make it 100%, then give to each according to his need.
 
2013-05-25 12:00:34 PM  
The only good thing about Hobby Lobby is that some of the materials artsy people like to use have remarkable properties. Scrap bookers like archival grade non-acidic double sided zero flex tape. Oil painters want oil paints that'll be stable for hundreds of years. And the modified PVC's they sell as modeling clays, that's some serious shiat right there.

The fact they're closed on Sunday? Just a decision they made. Personally, if I ran a retail business I'd be closed on Monday and Tuesday.
 
2013-05-25 12:08:35 PM  
I can't wait for the fun when a corporation wants to use the Citizens United decision to justify using their 2nd Amendment rights.
 
2013-05-25 12:11:56 PM  

logic523: bmihura: How about enough with all the extra taxes, Obama?

Keep it simple, just one tax.

Sounds good.  Make it 100%, then give to each according to his need.


Ah, I see you're familiar with argumentum ad absurdum.
 
2013-05-25 12:38:45 PM  
I never knew this about Hobby Lobby. Now I know what crafty store to avoid.
 
2013-05-25 12:39:04 PM  

hardinparamedic: BarkingUnicorn: You're pissed because they gave your girlfriend a solid gold civil rights case?

Problem with that: 1) It's Arkansas, and 2) She'd have to fight a protracted court battle on the budget of a college sophomore.


Look, if there are records, she has 2 years to file a claim.  I'd say gather what evidence you can, quietly find a lawyer who should be more than happy to take an open and shut case (especially if they're looking to get their name out there) and go for it.
 http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/equalcompensation.cfm


I still really regret not going after an employer because I found another job and wanted to leave that crap behind.  And later on found out they f--ked over other people in a similar fashion after I left.  Should've fought it out just so other people didn't have to go through that crap.  At least she should think about it.  Otherwise this sh-t is never going to change.

 
2013-05-25 01:29:32 PM  

Linux_Yes: F*cking is the most popular hobby on earth.  Hobby Lobby needs to reevaluate its priorities.


It's only a hobby because religious folk think it makes their invisible friend angry when you try and go professional.
 
2013-05-25 01:48:00 PM  

hasty ambush: Linux


Interesting info.  why is it that no one complained in the 80's when we started shipping our steel industry overseas and started outsourcing American jobs for cheap labor?

seems to me that the best way to reduce poverty and have tax paying jobs is to stop sending them overseas because some stockholder/owner felt he didn't make enough money last year.

and why have we sent so many jobs to communist china??  yea, its a communist state. just ask the CIA.

i hear the Right whine about taxes and the 'weight' of the poor/unemployed, yet the CONgress looks the other way when a company owner (Apple loves cheap overseas labor) ship his company manufacturing overseas, yet keeps the headquarters here in America because he likes our system.

the Rich and Big Business have our system/Nation gamed in their favor and it hurts the other half of this Country.  they get away with it because they own our Legislators.

that's not Democracy, that is Plutocracy.
 
2013-05-25 01:53:29 PM  
Repeat after me: Employers cannot impose their religious preferences upon employees.
 
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