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(UPI)   Over the last century Western nations lost an average of 14 IQ points. So, uh, immigration is bad?   (upi.com) divider line 103
    More: Interesting, Modern Western, Western nations, University of Amsterdam, IQ points  
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2013-05-24 08:08:37 AM  
Note to everyone: IQ is not a measure of knowledge; it is a measure of ability.
 
2013-05-24 08:10:16 AM  

johnryan51: School budgets have been slashed nation wide but its the minorities? Umm ok.


adjusted for inflation, school spending per capita has doubled since 1970.

thf_media.s3.amazonaws.com

Meanwhile test scores....

"In 1971, the initial year for the [National Assessment of Educational Progress long-term] reading test, the average score for 17-year-olds was 285; in 2008, the average score was 286. The math test started in 1973, when 17-year-olds averaged 304; in 2008, the average was 306.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/class-struggle/2010/09/why_us_17_ye ar _olds_scores_hav.html
 
2013-05-24 08:10:43 AM  
I'm not sure that tests taken during Victorian times and now could even be utterly comparable in nature.
 
2013-05-24 08:12:08 AM  

ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha: Honest Bender: Fluoride in the drinking water.

Okay, General Ripper...


Listen Mandrake, it's Looney Gas that's doin' it - it's why I only shower with Branch Water

http://tinyurl.com/a5g43rz
 
2013-05-24 08:15:17 AM  
www.nytstore.com
 
2013-05-24 08:22:11 AM  

Coming on a Bicycle: I'm not sure that tests taken during Victorian times and now could even be utterly comparable in nature.


============

Most of those early "intelligence tests" were intended to "prove" that other races were inferior to Anglo-Saxons.   The general attitude of the time:

"I am haunted by the human chimpanzees I saw along that hundred miles of horrible country...to see white chimpanzees is dreadful; if they were black one would not see it so much, but their skins, except where tanned by exposure, are as white as ours."
 
2013-05-24 08:22:36 AM  
I told you that we never should have allowed the drunken Irishman to batter his woman upon our fair shores!
 
2013-05-24 08:29:02 AM  

Kibbler: Real Murcans respond to a changing world by boosting spending on lottery tickets, buying many more guns, insisting that climate change is a myth, theorizing that the president's short- and long-form birth certificates are fakes, and demanding that big gubbmint keeps its hands off their Medicare while complaining that it has a "spending problem."

Immigrants respond to a changing world by leaving a place where starvation is about their only option and going to a place where they have to work hard doing unpleasant manual labor in an environment where fat white lazy Americans consider them parasites, but they can make enough to support their families, and they escape the corruption/authoritarian governments/drug gangs of the countries they came from.

Clearly, the immigrants are lowering the IQ of the population.


Obvious troll, and not sure if based on that 3rd grade text if you really understand the issues or are just derping, but ask Europe how they feel about their open immigration policies.   Pretty much every major European leader has noted the disappointing outcomes of multiculturalism policies. and just look at the amount of violence and tension.  Also, if 60% of Londoners aren't white, what does it mean to be British now?  Not to mention, the thinking was immigrants would adopt British culture, but what happened was, they imported their own.  Europe is giving away its identity.
 
2013-05-24 08:31:09 AM  
Lots of egotistical Americans in this thread who think they are the only Western nation.

Exactly how do NASCAR and Fox News affect European test scores, cause researchers from Belgium, the Netherlands, and Ireland really want to know.
 
2013-05-24 08:36:24 AM  
No matter what I say or how accurate it may be, the usual farkers will demonize me.
So, TAKE THAT!
 
2013-05-24 08:37:39 AM  
Pumpernickel bread:

Europe is giving away its identity.

Good.

nycblog.citysearch.com
 
2013-05-24 08:37:56 AM  

Pumpernickel bread: Obvious troll, and not sure if based on that 3rd grade text if you really understand the issues or are just derping, but ask Europe how they feel about their open immigration policies.   Pretty much every major European leader has noted the disappointing outcomes of multiculturalism policies. and just look at the amount of violence and tension.  Also, if 60% of Londoners aren't white, what does it mean to be British now?  Not to mention, the thinking was immigrants would adopt British culture, but what happened was, they imported their own.  Europe is giving away its identity.


Pretty much.  Anybody who has spent any time in Europe knows that what we see as a forward-thinking, progressive, tolerant society ends on the matter of immigration. The nordic states barely let you in unless you're white or have a $70k+ job lined up. The Germans hate the turks with a passion and native brits cant stand muslims and think they are taking over.  The French and Portugese are sick of immigrants from their former colonies coming over as well
 
2013-05-24 08:39:31 AM  

jehovahs witness protection: No matter what I say or how accurate it may be, the usual farkers will demonize me.
So, TAKE THAT!


I've seen you in I don't know how many threads spewing your garbage, and 'accurate' is definitely not an adjective I would use to describe your statements.
 
2013-05-24 08:42:06 AM  

Ninja Otter: The Flynn Effect disagrees.


Came here to say this. I even remember that we had to lower the difficulty of the test because so few men could score high enough to serve in the military in (I think) WWI. Maybe it was WWII though?
 
2013-05-24 08:53:22 AM  
Here's a fun unscientific test you can do at home to test this hypothesis:

Find you parents' and grandparents' high school yearbooks and compare the quality of handwriting, language, grammar, and depth of thought in the comments written in them by friends.  It's an eye-opener.
 
2013-05-24 09:01:12 AM  
I'd believe that the average journalist had lost 14 IQ points if only because I see more shiatty articles like this getting published. Time was, an editor would fire you just for submitting a pile of crap like TFA.

Anyhoo; the study is farking nonsense: you cannot determine someone's IQ from their reaction time. There's a correlation between the two, but you cannot infer one from the other.

And I'm doubly amazed a paper this shiatty was published in a scientific journal. How did the peer reviewers restrain themselves from writing "GOOGLE THE FARKING FLYNN EFFECT YOU PIG-IGNORANT ARROGANT SHIATHEELS. OR BETTER YET; QUIT BEING SCIENTISTS, YOU ARE CLEARLY TERRIBLE AT IT." all over it in crayon? We have the results of IQ tests from the last century, we can just farking look at them and see that IQ has been rising for that time.
 
2013-05-24 09:11:40 AM  

doyner: Here's a fun unscientific test you can do at home to test this hypothesis:

Find you parents' and grandparents' high school yearbooks and compare the quality of handwriting, language, grammar, and depth of thought in the comments written in them by friends.  It's an eye-opener.


1923: My word! How time has flown by while we received our education at our cherished place of learning. I do hope to see you soon in the future, and may you find everything you have ever wished for in your adult life. Ta!

1944: Well, just in time to avoid fighting the Germans, but now I have to worry about being picked to fight the Japs. I hope you're luckier than I am.

1978: Grease is the word!

1995: Dude i hope you get picked to be on Real World. it was awsome being in school with you

2012: BFF! KTHNX BU-BI!
 
2013-05-24 09:19:02 AM  

o5iiawah: Pumpernickel bread: Obvious troll, and not sure if based on that 3rd grade text if you really understand the issues or are just derping, but ask Europe how they feel about their open immigration policies.   Pretty much every major European leader has noted the disappointing outcomes of multiculturalism policies. and just look at the amount of violence and tension.  Also, if 60% of Londoners aren't white, what does it mean to be British now?  Not to mention, the thinking was immigrants would adopt British culture, but what happened was, they imported their own.  Europe is giving away its identity.

Pretty much.  Anybody who has spent any time in Europe knows that what we see as a forward-thinking, progressive, tolerant society ends on the matter of immigration. The nordic states barely let you in unless you're white or have a $70k+ job lined up. The Germans hate the turks with a passion and native brits cant stand muslims and think they are taking over.  The French and Portugese are sick of immigrants from their former colonies coming over as well


I'm sure the people from their former colonies felt the same way about the French and Portuguese coming over during colonization. Quid pro quo.
 
2013-05-24 09:22:48 AM  

picturescrazy: give me doughnuts: I questiog the basic premise that reaction-time is an indicator of intelligence.

Agreed. Although if it were, Dutch Blitz should have a place in every IQ test.



And based on my previous spelling of the word "question", I question my own intelligence.
 
2013-05-24 09:32:19 AM  
Yay Department of Education!

Yay immigration policy!

We are unable to democratically select where we allow immigrants to migrate from.  Who decides this for us?
 
2013-05-24 09:42:27 AM  

Technical paper is (doi:10.1016/j.intell.2013.04.006).

give me doughnuts: I questiog the basic premise that reaction-time is an indicator of intelligence.


Google Scholar turns up quite a bit of research from back to at least the late 1970s, indicating that measured reaction time correlates to measures of general intelligence. Or in other words, it's at least pretty solidly related to IQ test scores at this point... which is probably where you'd next object.

However, no-one seems to have published attempts at tying the Hampshire/Highfield research to the reaction time research yet.

Coming on a Bicycle: I'm not sure that tests taken during Victorian times and now could even be utterly comparable in nature.


The technical piece admits possibly non-trivial issues there; EG: Although Silverman used stringent selection criteria the trend may nonetheless be influenced by methodological artefacts and sample peculiarities.

In particular, if the circa 1900 samples by Galton and HB Thompson were not comparatively representative of the overall population, and thus need discarding, the trend gets a lot weaker -- to eyeball level, verging on nonexistent.

ars.els-cdn.com


Fissile: Most of those early "intelligence tests" were intended to "prove" that other races were inferior to Anglo-Saxons.


That, however, isn't one of the problems here. They're not using IQ tests of the era; they're using tests of reaction time, and relying on its correlation to general intelligence.
 
2013-05-24 09:43:06 AM  

o5iiawah: The nordic states barely let you in unless you're white or have a $70k+ job lined up.


Not even close. They all have very large populations of immigrants from the Middle east and Africa. So large that it is straining their social welfare systems.
 
2013-05-24 09:48:01 AM  
I do believe this is a repeat.

And what the dear man doing the research might not know is that you can't compare reaction time scores if different tests have been used.

A two stimulus reaction time test, one with both stimuli presented on a straight line (with 6 options total) and one with the stimuli sorted in 2 groups of 3 an angle will already have a difference of up to a 150 ms in the same setting and using the same equipment. Who knows what influence Victorian testing vs computer testing has on reaction times.
 
2013-05-24 09:49:49 AM  

give me doughnuts: I questiog the basic premise that reaction-time is an indicator of intelligence.


Not too quick, are you?
 
2013-05-24 09:51:47 AM  
Texting is the precursor to the apocalypse.

LERN HOW TOO SPEEL MORAN
 
2013-05-24 09:51:58 AM  
If you assume immigration is the cause of those lost IQ points then you are one of the ones bringing down the average.
 
2013-05-24 09:54:46 AM  

sithon: I understood your argument . I just disagree with your racist conclusion .
The fweeeeee was a dog whistle blowing.


I'm not sure you understand the term racism.  You must have been added to the pool.
 
2013-05-24 10:00:39 AM  

generallyso: I would be very surprised if the population of the original tests of 1889 consisted of people who had to work for a living instead of the upper crust of society who would have a better quality of education than the people probably being tested now.


And since the uppercrust of society then consisted of white anglo-saxons and the testing population would have been most likely male and that population has changed and expanded to include more women, minorities, and a increase in the number of the population who are not as well educated as this "uppercrust", you are a total point-white-hat racist for even thinking of this conclusion.  We must tar and feather you.
 
2013-05-24 10:05:21 AM  
Reading the JFK thread above this, it's pretty easy to figure out how low IQs are going.
 
2013-05-24 10:06:28 AM  
I heard IQs were rising. the flynn effect.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect
 
2013-05-24 10:08:35 AM  

abfalter: If you assume immigration is the cause of those lost IQ points then you are one of the ones bringing down the average.


Increased population size would have no impact on scoring?  Nooooo, that couldn't happen at all.

Off with you and you poorly improvised assumptions.
 
2013-05-24 10:12:11 AM  

Magnus: generallyso: I would be very surprised if the population of the original tests of 1889 consisted of people who had to work for a living instead of the upper crust of society who would have a better quality of education than the people probably being tested now.

And since the uppercrust of society then consisted of white anglo-saxons and the testing population would have been most likely male and that population has changed and expanded to include more women, minorities, and a increase in the number of the population who are not as well educated as this "uppercrust", you are a total point-white-hat racist for even thinking of this conclusion.  We must tar and feather you.


You forgot every other male that wasn't previously on the list, which was most of them.
/I'm a sexist!
//Can you be sexist against your own gender?
 
2013-05-24 10:40:09 AM  
The surprising part is that the average isn't much, much lower.
 
2013-05-24 10:41:03 AM  
Bears repeating (and emphasizing):

Cythraul: doyner: Here's a fun unscientific test you can do at home to test this hypothesis:

Find you parents' and grandparents' high school yearbooks and compare the quality of handwriting, language, grammar, and depth of thought in the comments written in them by friends.  It's an eye-opener.


1923: My word! How time has flown by while we received our education at our cherished place of learning. I do hope to see you soon in the future, and may you find everything you have ever wished for in your adult life. Ta!

1944: Well, just in time to avoid fighting the Germans, but now I have to worry about being picked to fight the Japs. I hope you're luckier than I am.

1978: Grease is the word!

1995: Dude i hope you get picked to be on Real World. it was awsome being in school with you

2012: BFF! KTHNX BU-BI!

 
2013-05-24 10:52:52 AM  
I'm sure that everyone is fine and that the USA is solely responsible for pulling down the average.
 
2013-05-24 10:56:53 AM  

ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha: Honest Bender: Fluoride in the drinking water.

Okay, General Ripper...


Nope: IQ in the US increased over the same time frame. We're the ones who fluoridated,  not them.
 
2013-05-24 11:00:41 AM  

Fissile: Coming on a Bicycle: I'm not sure that tests taken during Victorian times and now could even be utterly comparable in nature.

============

Most of those early "intelligence tests" were intended to "prove" that other races were inferior to Anglo-Saxons.


Bullshiat.

Also, your use of scare quotes disgusts me.
 
2013-05-24 11:05:32 AM  

nocturnal001: Welcome to Costco. I love you.

 
2013-05-24 11:21:57 AM  
But breast size increased 20%

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-05-24 11:23:35 AM  

ajgeek: You forgot every other male that wasn't previously on the list, which was most of them.
/I'm a sexist!
//Can you be sexist against your own gender?


Men tend to have higher IQs than females.

http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/SexDifferences.aspx
 
2013-05-24 11:26:53 AM  
Yes, immigration is part of the problem. How many doctors and scientists do you think are coming here from Mexico and Guatemala??? We have more than enough morons already in this country, why the hell are we imprting more? Oh right, free social services.
 
2013-05-24 11:31:25 AM  

Rex Kramer - Danger Seeker: Yes, immigration is part of the problem. How many doctors and scientists do you think are coming here from Mexico and Guatemala??? We have more than enough morons already in this country, why the hell are we imprting more? Oh right, free social services.


Why don't you go somewhere else then? You can help balance it out.
 
2013-05-24 11:32:02 AM  

ajgeek: Magnus: generallyso: I would be very surprised if the population of the original tests of 1889 consisted of people who had to work for a living instead of the upper crust of society who would have a better quality of education than the people probably being tested now.

And since the uppercrust of society then consisted of white anglo-saxons and the testing population would have been most likely male and that population has changed and expanded to include more women, minorities, and a increase in the number of the population who are not as well educated as this "uppercrust", you are a total point-white-hat racist for even thinking of this conclusion.  We must tar and feather you.

You forgot every other male that wasn't previously on the list, which was most of them.
/I'm a sexist!
//Can you be sexist against your own gender?


I am.  Welcome to the club.   Us guys are pigs.   Especially on Mondays and Tuesdays during football season.  I want my own private bathroom.  Ugh...farking disgusting ba$tards.
 
2013-05-24 12:18:39 PM  

Honest Bender: Fluoride in the drinking water.


You mean, like, from the toilet?
 
2013-05-24 12:24:54 PM  

doglover: sithon: doglover: Women got rights. Minorities got rights.

The more samples you add to a data pool, the lower the mean will fall towards 50%

Used to be only smart WASP kids even got to take an IQ test. Now everyone gets one. Of course the average is down.

fweeeeee

In other words, IQ isn't down. The data pool's many times larger.


I have to give you props for putting so many different kinds of bigotry into the Boobies (Misogyny?  Racism?  Classism?   I can't even count them all) and then bonus points for being too dumb to realize you were called on it.  Or pretending to be that dumb.  If you're trolling, I have to say, pretty well done.  If not, I still congratulate you for conciseness.

In other news, how long before we get a link showing that either the study is completely discredited or did not at all say what TFA claims it does?  Are we taking bets?
 
2013-05-24 12:54:11 PM  
"Simple reaction time measures correlate substantially with measures of general intelligence and are considered elementary measures of cognition."

Striking snakes have some of the fastest reaction times ever recorded, but are not known to be rocket scientists. Actually, they tend to be rather stupid.

Sharks also have tremendously fast reaction times, and are known to eat things like life vests, car tags, parts of surf boards and have attacked boats. They're not good at Sodoku. Pretty crappy in checkers also.

Assorted monkeys have displayed some remarkable intelligence -- yet they fling poo at random targets, Chimps can't swim, show one how to use a gun and he'll more than likely shoot himself and their leadership in groups is usually done by the strongest.

Reaction time, IMO, is a survival trait, needed as we evolved to keep ourselves from being eaten by something bigger and nastier. It also helps when we scramble around trees, cliffs, jungles and swamps to keep us from managing to kill ourselves by accident.

Now, if you test extreme sports enthusiasts, such as free form mountain climbers, Parcor (?) practicers, skate boarders, mountain bikers, race car drivers, skiers and snowboard users, you'll find their reaction times faster than normal.

They have to be. However, as has been well documented, the enthusiasts are not necessarily all that smart. Especially radical skateboarders who crash down two stories of stairs trying to ride the rail, face plant on cement jumping a rise and crash into walls.

Then, they do it all again, apparently enthusiastic over getting broken bones, teeth knocked out, concussions and acres of road rash.

A boxer has fast reflexes. Lightening fast. Very few go on to become engineers, physicians, airline pilots or CEOs. Their main strength lies in toughness; the ability to absorb tremendous impacts and deliver the same. Also, career boxers face a high degree of early onset Alzheimer's -- the result of having their brains knocked around in their skulls for a career.

We have these 'Savants' who can recall everything they ever read, saw or experienced and tell you about it, but most need keepers to get dressed, find their way home or go shopping for food. They seem tremendously intelligent, but in reality, they're not.

Our prisons are full of street thugs who have lightening fast reflexes, developed from living on the mean streets, having to always watch their backs, keeping up with the current rapid jargon and knowing what areas are safe to be in and those that are not.

However, the majority have a less than normal IQ. Some, as we've seen, are down right moronic.

Your environment hones your reflexes. If you're an adrenaline junky, your reflexes are going to be faster than mine even though our IQs might be the same.
Physicians are intelligent. They have to be in order to make it through med school. Yet today, many can't change a tire on their top of the line car and rely on a service reached by their cell phone.

Society also contributes to reflexes. As we develop more labor saving devices, we no longer use the reflexes needed for basic survival years ago. We don't hang living room rugs out on a line and beat them with something like a tennis racquet to get the dirt out. We use a vacuum cleaner. So, we never develop those reflexes used to efficiently strike a flexible material efficiently, automatically accounting for the play in the fabric and density, needed to knock the dirt out of it.

My Grandma had those reflexes. I don't. Yet, I graduated High School and went to college. She didn't.

I've met some really dumb soldiers, yet their training meant they would survive much longer on a battlefield than I would. Their relaxes were tuned in to detect and respond to the click of a grenade being armed or the pressure plate of a mine setting itself to detonate. Some soldiers have been fast enough to grab a thrown grenade -- with it's 5 second fuse already burned down to around 2 -- and throw it away to avoid harm.

Since I'm not a soldier, it might take me 2 seconds to realize that what just landed in my lap was a grenade. None of my senses are trained to recognize it. My brain has not been conditioned to understand instantly what it's weight, shape and color means.

I figure I'd probably grab it about the time it went off. Now that soldier with faster reflexes, but 10 points lower than me on the IQ scale would walk past my smoldering remains and more than likely survive to go home, breed and live a long and happy life. He might never make more than $70,000 a year where I might have made $200,000 -- but his reflexes would have kept him alive. Mine wouldn't.

Your environment mainly affects your reflexes. The less danger you face on a daily basis, the more time you have to ponder things and increase your intelligence. Often, your intelligence will develope as you respond to the stimuli that requires fast reflexes. Like, grow up in an area where shootings are common and you can pick up spent bullets off the ground and you might start figuring out a way to develop bullet proof vests, glass, doors and walls. However, every time you hear an explosion of a certain type and degree of loudness, you'll instinctively duck for cover.

Reflexes are a survival mechanism.

That moron in class might barely be able to spell the name of his own country, but he can be a superstar playing video games which rely on fast reaction times.

In my day, we had a lot of people who were remarkable playing pinball -- yet failed High School and worked menial jobs at low pay. I wouldn't consider them the brightest bulbs in the game, but they sure could make those machines sing.

My grandparents were experts at tying knots. They had to be, because you used string and rope for everything that needed securing. Some knots are rather complicated. I grew up with Scotch Tape, then later, stick and seal envelopes, followed by glue sticks, duct tape, packaging tape and so on. I can't tie the knots they used to, yet I'm smarter because I had a better education.

Get the point?
 
2013-05-24 01:06:09 PM  

give me doughnuts: I questiog the basic premise that reaction-time is an indicator of intelligence.


Reaction time is a factor in this, so please pay attention.
 
2013-05-24 01:37:24 PM  

o5iiawah: johnryan51: School budgets have been slashed nation wide but its the minorities? Umm ok.

adjusted for inflation, school spending per capita has doubled since 1970.

[thf_media.s3.amazonaws.com image 789x924]

Meanwhile test scores....

"In 1971, the initial year for the [National Assessment of Educational Progress long-term] reading test, the average score for 17-year-olds was 285; in 2008, the average score was 286. The math test started in 1973, when 17-year-olds averaged 304; in 2008, the average was 306.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/class-struggle/2010/09/why_us_17_ye ar _olds_scores_hav.html


 not adjusted accurately for inflation 12,000 dollars in 2008 had purchasing power of  2,100 in 1970
 
2013-05-24 02:00:36 PM  

Ninja Otter: The Flynn Effect disagrees.


I'm still split between "the meta-study cited is a load of malarkey" and "the meta-study cited did not say what the article claims it said."  I'd say it's about even odds.
 
2013-05-24 02:59:49 PM  

kazikian: Debeo Summa Credo: johnryan51: School budgets have been slashed nation wide but its the minorities? Umm ok.

LOL. School budgets are down from the late 19th century? Should we go back to the one room schoolhouse/ school marm education model?

Anyway, I'm very dubious about this study. How the hell would they be able to study reaction times of Victorian era people now?

The one room schoolhouse model had a higher teacher to student ratio. And Have you ever seen how difficult old tests are compared up today's?



Smells like an urban legend to me.
 
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