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(Slate)   Working parents who leave the office early are getting away with an "unfair practice" and are "killing office morale." Well, according to the people without kids who are just pissed they can't leave early   (slate.com) divider line 264
    More: Fail, working parent, Emily Yoffe, vacation time  
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6060 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 May 2013 at 6:42 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-24 07:49:11 AM
Albinoman:
Shall we move on to how tax breaks for children is a bit unfair? "Kids are expensive" is the usual reason they think theyre entitled to everyone else's money.

It's the only way to get white people to have the critical white babies needed to preserve Real America.

1-media-cdn.foolz.us
 
2013-05-24 07:49:25 AM

Albinoman: Shall we move on to how tax breaks for children is a bit unfair? "Kids are expensive" is the usual reason they think theyre entitled to everyone else's money.


Are you saying we've set up our social systems to match predominant human behavior and biological realities?  That's crazy talk.  What next?  Public bathrooms?
 
2013-05-24 07:49:30 AM

Persnickety: desertfool: ecmoRandomNumbers: Don't even get me started on smokers and their breaks.

Yep, my 3 10-minute smoke breaks per day really ruin things. But my co-worker taking a two-hour lunch so he can run and swim, and coming in late/leaving early because he bikes to work is just fine.

Assuming your employer pays for your health care, chances are your co-worker will end up costing your company much less in the long run.


Not when he gets hit by a car.
 
2013-05-24 07:53:19 AM
Walker

This guy I work with leaves at 2pm every day so he can go pick up his kids. I have to stay till 5 and have to cover his work when he leaves every day, so yeah, you know where I stand on this BS. Oh, and every week he puts 45-50 hours on his timesheet when in reality he only works 30-35. So he makes more money than me too thanks to all his overtime that he never worked. So yeah, I stick pins in a voodoo doll I made of him.


This plus he's a big fan of Jebus and has to share with us with the tails of his parenthood greatness. So, not only does he show up a 10 AM, he has to tell the boss and the co-workers (separately) about his morning and how his awesomeness over came adversity. BTW: His one daughter will make Ted Bundy someday look like Al Bundy. She has already figured out that she doesn't have to be honest, she just doesn't have to get caught. Funny but true: She set herself up as admin on the family computer not once but twice. Her latest great episode: She decided to steal some drinks and make a run for it to the apartment wit 4 cops chasing her. Oh and she's 12.

And the hour long phone conversation with the wife about child rearing. That's productive because then he has to reinforce his position on said child rearing with the people in his immediate area.
I could go on, but I'm farking at work. Hey. My work gets done and I take on additional projects.
 
2013-05-24 07:54:02 AM
Until daycares are open 24 hours a day and children are allowed to attend when they're sick, this won't change. Sure they might have to leave early, but it's not like they're doing it to shirk responsibility, it's mainly because child care operates on the faulty theory that everyone works nine to five jobs.
 
2013-05-24 07:55:37 AM

Persnickety: Are you saying we've set up our social systems to match predominant human behavior and biological realities?


more like, we've designed social systems to benefit or show favor to certain voting blocks.

E.g art foundations that millionaires dump money into in order to hide it
child credit
student loan interest deduction
mortgage deduction
 
2013-05-24 07:57:24 AM

OregonVet: I once left work early to go make a babby. I went to another manager (happened to be the HR) and said, "Hey Ang, I'm leaving early (like 3 PM), MrsOV is ovulating."
"Well, alrightie then."
/csb


Was she only ovulating for two hours?
 
2013-05-24 08:00:49 AM
Ffs, stop acting like having kids was the ultimate selfless sacrifice you made for the better of society. You just went with the urge to reproduce your own genes. It's not heroic and in need of special work hours and tax breaks (kids are expensive, well so are horses, and bar tabs, and you do't get tax breaks for those). No one else should be required to accommodate what was your personal choice.
 
2013-05-24 08:01:06 AM
How much time can I get off work for my weekly abortion?  Those frequent fetus cards aren't going to stamp themselves.

/technically it's a kid problem I'm solving, so...
 
2013-05-24 08:04:46 AM

abhorrent1: Mr. Coffee Nerves: Someday there will be a thread where a Florida parent takes an extra smoke break before leaving work early - driving 54 in the left lane of a 55 zone -- to get to the airport laden with massive carry-on bags pausing only to stop at Starbucks and change the baby's diaper on a table then leave without tipping before boarding the flight to go pick up their freshly-declawed cat and refusing to hang up their cell phone complaining about the baby screaming so loud the parent can't enjoy ESPN's "Why is Tim Tebow being unfairly blackballed" on their iPad. Plus Benghazi.

Somewhere in there they also need to get on their bicycle, ride in the middle of the street and ignore all traffic laws. And something about kim Kardashian


They also need to have a CCW, a weight problem and a relative/co-worker who deplores porn. Oh, and a lawn. They def need a lawn and a neighbor who is cray-cray.
 
2013-05-24 08:05:13 AM
I regularly leave early just so I can rub one off...
 
2013-05-24 08:08:45 AM

djkutch: ecmoRandomNumbers: Shostie: pizen: xlbrooklyn: ecmoRandomNumbers: Don't even get me started on smokers and their breaks.

You got yourself started.  But please don't let me stop you.  I enjoy a good anti-smoker rant.

With a smoker argument in a parenting thread all we need now is someone complaining about people taking time off to either have, or continue to not have, a circumcision.

I'm thinking about getting my cat declawed. That cool with everyone? I mean, she's an indoor-outdoor cat, but I don't want her f*cking up my furniture.

My work here is done.

Not quite. We need a tipping angle.


Wait... you're suppsosed to tip after getting a circumcision?
 
2013-05-24 08:09:54 AM
www.whiteoak.org

Working class problems.
 
2013-05-24 08:10:56 AM
The problem is that people are willing to accept jobs that aren't lenient as long as work is getting done, and more abusive jobs. That some companies are getting away with treating their employees like garbage and turning them against each other is the real problem.
 
2013-05-24 08:13:27 AM
I demand that I be given special rights so that I can take care of my children.
I demand that I be able to work less hours as part of these special rights.
I demand that I be paid the same for the "same job".
 
2013-05-24 08:14:38 AM

WordyGrrl: pizen: xlbrooklyn: ecmoRandomNumbers: Don't even get me started on smokers and their breaks.

You got yourself started.  But please don't let me stop you.  I enjoy a good anti-smoker rant.

With a smoker argument in a parenting thread all we need now is someone complaining about people taking time off to either have, or continue to not have, a circumcision.

And that last word starts off a thread about tips.


And Benghazi.
 
2013-05-24 08:15:33 AM
Kids on airplanes: GO.
 
2013-05-24 08:16:37 AM
Yeah, f$ck it, little billy snot nose can stand out front of the school for an hour or so waiting for a ride so your ignorant jackhole co-workers can feel better about their vacuous failed lives.
 
2013-05-24 08:16:58 AM
when i worked in an office nobody gave a shiat when somebody left as long as they got their work done

i actually stayed after everybody else most of the time because i didn't want to fight traffic
 
2013-05-24 08:17:07 AM
If you're pissed off that you're doing much more work than your colleagues with kids, even on regular days, then they're not slacking off - *you* are the one doing too much work.
 
2013-05-24 08:18:05 AM
i43.tinypic.com
 
2013-05-24 08:18:09 AM

dopekitty74: Until daycares are open 24 hours a day and children are allowed to attend when they're sick, this won't change. Sure they might have to leave early, but it's not like they're doing it to shirk responsibility, it's mainly because child care operates on the faulty theory that everyone works nine to five jobs.


That's fine. Let me get paid more and preferred promotion if I sign a no-kids contract, then, because my career is obviously more important to me than to someone who chose to have kids.
 
2013-05-24 08:18:18 AM

WhippingBoy: I demand that I be given special rights so that I can take care of my children.
I demand that I be able to work less hours as part of these special rights.
I demand that I be paid the same for the "same job".


I demand to be given special rights as a woman in the workplace.
I demand to be able to take off 2 months to give birth and still be allowed to keep my job.
I demand the right to complain about making less pay in spite of working fewer hours.
 
2013-05-24 08:18:35 AM
If you can't bag out early or come in late every once in a while without using PTO or coming up with some wild excuse, your job blows. Sorry to have to be the one to tell you, but I assume you already know.
 
2013-05-24 08:21:27 AM

ph0rk: dopekitty74: Until daycares are open 24 hours a day and children are allowed to attend when they're sick, this won't change. Sure they might have to leave early, but it's not like they're doing it to shirk responsibility, it's mainly because child care operates on the faulty theory that everyone works nine to five jobs.

That's fine. Let me get paid more and preferred promotion if I sign a no-kids contract, then, because my career is obviously more important to me than to someone who chose to have kids.


As someone who has children and cannot commit as much time and energy to work as someone who doesn't have children, I don't have a problem with this.
 
2013-05-24 08:22:01 AM

dopekitty74: Until daycares are open 24 hours a day and children are allowed to attend when they're sick, this won't change. Sure they might have to leave early, but it's not like they're doing it to shirk responsibility, it's mainly because child care operates on the faulty theory that everyone works nine to five jobs.


This.  Not just daycare.

Pichu0102: The problem is that people are willing to accept jobs that aren't lenient as long as work is getting done, and more abusive jobs. That some companies are getting away with treating their employees like garbage and turning them against each other is the real problem.


And This.  Most jobs are like this.

Two issues most people don't have a choice about.  You can't pick only one, either stayed wedged in the middle or don't have a job and kids.  No choice on just staying over, since it could mean jail for not picking up the kids.  Get rid of the job and give up all your stuff and may still lose the kids.

WhippingBoy: I demand that I be given special rights so that I can take care of my children.
I demand that I be able to work less hours as part of these special rights.
I demand that I be paid the same for the "same job".


If you are salary, that is your problem.  Hourly means never working unpaid overtime.
 
2013-05-24 08:23:47 AM
hubiestubert:

(favorite: smart, articulate)
 
2013-05-24 08:24:12 AM

lack of warmth: If you are salary, that is your problem.  Hourly means never working unpaid overtime.


Wow, you're an idiot.
 
2013-05-24 08:27:35 AM
The easiest way to resolve this is not to justify why you need to come in late or leave early.  The same applies to people who turn down overtime or weekend work.  Just say you need the personal time, period.  The 'why' is irrelevant.  Attempting to justify it puts the boss in the position of making a value judgment.  And he might decide that someone who wants to attend their kids ballgame is ok but someone who wants to go see a concert with friends is not.  And that's where the workplace problems start.
 
2013-05-24 08:28:56 AM

fozziewazzi: The easiest way to resolve this is not to justify why you need to come in late or leave early.  The same applies to people who turn down overtime or weekend work.  Just say you need the personal time, period.  The 'why' is irrelevant.  Attempting to justify it puts the boss in the position of making a value judgment.  And he might decide that someone who wants to attend their kids ballgame is ok but someone who wants to go see a concert with friends is not.  And that's where the workplace problems start.


That would require trustworthy employees, or at least a gullible boss.
 
2013-05-24 08:30:06 AM

lack of warmth: dopekitty74: Until daycares are open 24 hours a day and children are allowed to attend when they're sick, this won't change. Sure they might have to leave early, but it's not like they're doing it to shirk responsibility, it's mainly because child care operates on the faulty theory that everyone works nine to five jobs.

This.  Not just daycare.

Pichu0102: The problem is that people are willing to accept jobs that aren't lenient as long as work is getting done, and more abusive jobs. That some companies are getting away with treating their employees like garbage and turning them against each other is the real problem.

And This.  Most jobs are like this.

Two issues most people don't have a choice about.  You can't pick only one, either stayed wedged in the middle or don't have a job and kids.  No choice on just staying over, since it could mean jail for not picking up the kids.  Get rid of the job and give up all your stuff and may still lose the kids.

WhippingBoy: I demand that I be given special rights so that I can take care of my children.
I demand that I be able to work less hours as part of these special rights.
I demand that I be paid the same for the "same job".

If you are salary, that is your problem.  Hourly means never working unpaid overtime.


Well, I disagree about salaried employees being overworked being their problem. Can't a union have salaried workers have a certain workload, and any more costs extra?
 
2013-05-24 08:30:35 AM

WhippingBoy: lack of warmth: If you are salary, that is your problem.  Hourly means never working unpaid overtime.

Wow, you're an idiot.


Really.  A lot of employers have used salary as a way to rip off employees.  One of my friends went salary doing the same job.  Later he realized he took a $4/hr paycut.  He was working 50 hours a week and lost all that overtime.
 
2013-05-24 08:32:50 AM
I'm a junior attorney in my late 20s. I work in a busy office that prides itself on work-life balance, and many of my co-workers have young children. Often, these co-workers leave at 4:30 or 5 on the dot to pick up their kids or attend their events, leaving me to stay late (up to several hours) to finish up work that needs to be done.

Sounds like those colleagues are leaving within the hours allowed by their company. If the junior attorney values their work-life balance so much then they should leave at that time too.
 
2013-05-24 08:33:07 AM

Pichu0102: Well, I disagree about salaried employees being overworked being their problem. Can't a union have salaried workers have a certain workload, and any more costs extra?


Unions don't typically protect salaried workers.  Like in my last post my friend not only lost money, but union protection.  He worked for GM.  The union doesn't help salaried workers at my job either.
 
2013-05-24 08:34:18 AM

lack of warmth: A lot of employers have used salary as a way to rip off employees.


And that's one reason, among others, to get rid of exemptions to overtime.
 
2013-05-24 08:34:41 AM

ph0rk: fozziewazzi: The easiest way to resolve this is not to justify why you need to come in late or leave early.  The same applies to people who turn down overtime or weekend work.  Just say you need the personal time, period.  The 'why' is irrelevant.  Attempting to justify it puts the boss in the position of making a value judgment.  And he might decide that someone who wants to attend their kids ballgame is ok but someone who wants to go see a concert with friends is not.  And that's where the workplace problems start.

That would require trustworthy employees, or at least a gullible boss.


Not really.  With no justification for requested time off the boss can treat everyone equally.  He can base his decision on the needs of the business and the value/performance of that employee.  But once an employee starts inserting a justification for the requested time off the manager is immediately put in the position of making that value judgment, and that inevitably leads to problems.
 
2013-05-24 08:34:45 AM
Classic big-business tool, If you keep the peons arguing with each other it draws attention away from the big-wigs screwing them over, it's the same tactics monarchs and other heads of states uses to keep their people in line.
 
2013-05-24 08:35:33 AM

WhippingBoy: lack of warmth: If you are salary, that is your problem.  Hourly means never working unpaid overtime.

Wow, you're an idiot.


Depends on where he works.  For about 15 years I watched my dad get abused on the "you're salaried" deal.  A company run by utter sociopaths (Core-Lube Industrial Coatings) declared him a manager and worked him like a rented mule.  Crazy long and unpredictable hours, random work assignments, trying to manage the borderline illiterate jerkholes that they kept hiring.    Damned near killed him.
 
2013-05-24 08:40:35 AM

fozziewazzi: ph0rk: fozziewazzi: The easiest way to resolve this is not to justify why you need to come in late or leave early.  The same applies to people who turn down overtime or weekend work.  Just say you need the personal time, period.  The 'why' is irrelevant.  Attempting to justify it puts the boss in the position of making a value judgment.  And he might decide that someone who wants to attend their kids ballgame is ok but someone who wants to go see a concert with friends is not.  And that's where the workplace problems start.

That would require trustworthy employees, or at least a gullible boss.

Not really.  With no justification for requested time off the boss can treat everyone equally.  He can base his decision on the needs of the business and the value/performance of that employee.  But once an employee starts inserting a justification for the requested time off the manager is immediately put in the position of making that value judgment, and that inevitably leads to problems.


At that point, just give each employee a set number of personal hours per year and be done with it. Some farkwad will try to guilt extra, though. How to deal with the extreme cases?

A boss will still be in the unenviable position of telling an employee that the job is more important than their child. Better to just go ahead and make the fact the employee values their family more explicit from the get-go.
 
2013-05-24 08:44:00 AM
I used to work at a company that we'll refer to as TeamHell. We had a five man department, plus an idiot who couldn't do anything right. Idiot had three screaming kids at home, so he got to leave at five while the rest of us were working fifteen hour shifts to meet the sales team's retarded promises.

During a confrontation with the manager about this, it became very clear that he thought this was imminently reasonable. When I warned him that I planned to go knock up a couple of women in a trailer park to assist them with their welfare fraud and would expect a similar accommodation to my schedule so I could be a responsible baby daddy, he finally snapped and seemed to understand the problem.
 
2013-05-24 08:47:09 AM

ph0rk: fozziewazzi: ph0rk: fozziewazzi: The easiest way to resolve this is not to justify why you need to come in late or leave early.  The same applies to people who turn down overtime or weekend work.  Just say you need the personal time, period.  The 'why' is irrelevant.  Attempting to justify it puts the boss in the position of making a value judgment.  And he might decide that someone who wants to attend their kids ballgame is ok but someone who wants to go see a concert with friends is not.  And that's where the workplace problems start.

That would require trustworthy employees, or at least a gullible boss.

Not really.  With no justification for requested time off the boss can treat everyone equally.  He can base his decision on the needs of the business and the value/performance of that employee.  But once an employee starts inserting a justification for the requested time off the manager is immediately put in the position of making that value judgment, and that inevitably leads to problems.

At that point, just give each employee a set number of personal hours per year and be done with it. Some farkwad will try to guilt extra, though. How to deal with the extreme cases?

A boss will still be in the unenviable position of telling an employee that the job is more important than their child. Better to just go ahead and make the fact the employee values their family more explicit from the get-go.


Agreed, and that's why for mid-larger companies at least it needs to be part of policy that employees requesting time off do not (and should not) need to justify why.  Take it a step further - if an employee sees that their colleague is getting preferred time off from their manager for a non-business reason, that should be a policy break that would be reported to HR.
 
2013-05-24 08:52:46 AM
I don't actually mind it. Partly because it just doesn't bother me to pitch in a little more and my co-workers don't abuse the privilege, but partly because it also means they're not here trying to convince me their stupid, ugly kids are smart and cute.

By all means I'll finish up your router config and deployment. I'd much rather do that anyway than sit and listen to you tell me about your dumb kid's football tryout.
 
2013-05-24 08:56:47 AM
As much as working in a small office sometimes feels limiting reading some of this stuff makes me soooo glad I no longer work in a large corporate environment having to deal with the politics of the office and general asshattery of people.

Such a huge waste of time dealing with that crap.
 
2013-05-24 08:57:09 AM

hubiestubert: When I manage a place, I get all sorts of reasons to leave early. From band practice, to kids' recital, to gallery opening, to concerts, parents coming into town, dates, movers coming, and you know what? I work with folks to make sure the shift is covered, and so long as everything is taken care of, and folks are good with covering for them, drive on. Kids? Yup, it's a good reason. Kids are sick? Good reason. Parent is sick and you want to check on them? Good reason. If you are such a selfish human that you can't understand that sometimes folks have other things going on their life than a deadline or a bunch of file work, or even in my business which is sort of dependent upon having enough skilled folks on a line to take care of things, then maybe you need to work for yourself and take others out of the picture. Or you can man the f*ck up and stop seeing others getting things that you aren't getting like a f*cking four year old, you whining little Sally.

Personal time. Folks sometimes need it. For a variety of reasons. Be that because they've got a bike run that they really want to get to. Or a concert. Or maybe they need to pick up some medicine on the way home and need to get out before the pharmacy closes. Or they need to get to the gottverdammt ICU because someone just admitted that they care about. So long as you have some lead time, you can prepare for it. So long as the work is covered, and the folks who you are covering for return the favor, drive on. When childcare is an issue, I try to work with folks. Because that's what you do. You do it, because you hope like Hells that they'll do the same for you. Or even when you want to duck work and meet some friends who are blowing into town early.

The important thing is: is the work getting done? Not a mark on the clock, but is the work getting done? If someone isn't pulling their weight and needs more time, then you need to reassess their workload. If folks need a regular early day out, then you prepare for it. And you make sure that the personal time is well distributed. I encourage "well" days as well as sick days. So long as everyone knows that a shift needs covered, and folks are willing to do it, and that means that sometimes I step in and do the shift on top of my own, because I know that folks will cover for me too.

It's called teamwork. Try it. Or maybe you can whine that you're not getting your cookie at the same time that others are. Because that's so attractive and shows your willingness to be a part of team...


Seems like your interpretation of teamwork is hated by most of your employees. And as a supervisor of 150 airmen, it irritates me that I have to look at an airmen and tell him he has to work Xmas nights, weekends, and Xmas because he has Jo dependents. Then I'm expected to council said airmen on why he shouldn't be knocking chicks up. It is a moral killer, it is extremely unfair, and people that can't work because they have kids shouldn't be working.
 
2013-05-24 08:57:49 AM

MmmmBacon: Jim_Callahan: Not that there aren't douche bosses that have favorite employees that get more leeway, but 99% of the time the policies are identical for everyone (with the exception of actual maternity leave) and you're just not actually asking for things in the right way or on the right schedule.  Try for some minimal people skills, man.

I have people skills. What I lack is a child that gets me a free pass on taking time off whenever I feel like it, because "the kid is sick" or "they have a game". And perhaps they schedule things out months in advance at your job, but at mine it more often is scheduled only days in advance. And it's great to be at work reading Facebook posts from said Breeder about being at the beach when they are supposed to be home with their sick kid, or attending their tee-ball game.

Like I said, it's complete BS. Breeders get preferential treatment over people who either choose not to have kids or are incapable of doing so. My wife and I are the latter.


So, you're pissed about someone else's productivity as you're browsing Facebook at work.
 
2013-05-24 09:01:37 AM

GORDON: Kids on airplanes: GO.


well are they flying it? because then no.
 
2013-05-24 09:01:48 AM

steerforth: abhorrent1: Mr. Coffee Nerves: Someday there will be a thread where a Florida parent takes an extra smoke break before leaving work early - driving 54 in the left lane of a 55 zone -- to get to the airport laden with massive carry-on bags pausing only to stop at Starbucks and change the baby's diaper on a table then leave without tipping before boarding the flight to go pick up their freshly-declawed cat and refusing to hang up their cell phone complaining about the baby screaming so loud the parent can't enjoy ESPN's "Why is Tim Tebow being unfairly blackballed" on their iPad. Plus Benghazi.

Somewhere in there they also need to get on their bicycle, ride in the middle of the street and ignore all traffic laws. And something about kim Kardashian

They also need to have a CCW, a weight problem and a relative/co-worker who deplores porn. Oh, and a lawn. They def need a lawn and a neighbor who is cray-cray.


And a HOA.  Everyone is forgetting about the HOA
 
2013-05-24 09:04:43 AM

dopekitty74: Until daycares are open 24 hours a day and children are allowed to attend when they're sick, this won't change. Sure they might have to leave early, but it's not like they're doing it to shirk responsibility, it's mainly because child care operates on the faulty theory that everyone works nine to five jobs.


The BEST part about daycare is that they charge you for EVERY MINUTE YOU ARE LATE.  Ours was $5 a minute.
 
2013-05-24 09:05:02 AM

Precision Boobery: Was she only ovulating for two hours?


Actually she was going into work late so we could do the deed... :P

/been stay-home-dad for ten years since
 
2013-05-24 09:07:13 AM

ph0rk: dopekitty74: Until daycares are open 24 hours a day and children are allowed to attend when they're sick, this won't change. Sure they might have to leave early, but it's not like they're doing it to shirk responsibility, it's mainly because child care operates on the faulty theory that everyone works nine to five jobs.

That's fine. Let me get paid more and preferred promotion if I sign a no-kids contract, then, because my career is obviously more important to me than to someone who chose to have kids.


...you act as if that doesn't already happen.  I was demoted for going on maternity leave, and I did my damn job.
 
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