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(USA Today)   Polite young men who wear neckerchiefs, colorful badges and khaki shorts in public are now allowed to be openly gay   (usatoday.com) divider line 232
    More: News, batty boys, Eagle Scout, Boy Scouts of America, badges, grape vine  
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7703 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 May 2013 at 7:27 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-24 12:20:59 AM

Flragnararch: I'm not the only one that thinks that this isn't about equality but about sponsorship money yes?


Yeah, but it's really not much about either, since this was a vote.  It had more to do with apathy.  The only people who had a strong opinion on the issue were the no-votes.
 
2013-05-24 12:24:53 AM

Arachnophobe: Why is that odd?


Because he didn't conform to the paranoid stereotypes of bigots.
 
2013-05-24 12:25:50 AM

Lenny_da_Hog: Baloo Uriza: Anybody that's been in Scouts and is still alive can tell you the Scouting program doesn't really lean on religion that hard.

There was also that big resurgence during the Cold war, when atheists were communists, but it mostly depends on where you live whether or not it gets enforced.

I was in scouts in the 70s for almost a year in 7th grade, then moved to a different town for 8th grade. There, I joined a new troop and was a member for a couple of weeks before I got into a heated discussion about evolution after science class at school. One of the troop members told the adult leadership, who pulled me aside before the next meeting and asked me about it. They deemed I wasn't reverent enough and kicked me out (That troop was sponsored by a Methodist church).


The troop that both of my sons joined is chartered by a Catholic church, and yet here I am, an athiest since I was old enough to know the difference.  Being involved in Scout activities, in my opinion, is far better for boys that not, and the Catholics, as wacky as they may be, have given us support and a meeting hall since long before I've been with the troop.  I have never had a bad word to say about about any of the members of this [articular church, it's the religion that I can't stand.
 
2013-05-24 12:25:56 AM

knowless: Lame, now you'll be able to hear them farking instead of just suspect it.


You must be from Portland.  Seriously, that's some ignorantly convoluted, farked up logic that is regionally specific to that city, and it's one of the things that ultimately drove me away from my hometown.  Let me go ahead and make this as plain as possible.

NOBODY IN THEIR RIGHT MIND JOINS SCOUTING FOR THE SEX.
YOUR ARGUMENT IS IRRELEVANT TO THE CONVERSATION.
 
2013-05-24 12:31:08 AM

Lenny_da_Hog: Baloo Uriza: Anybody that's been in Scouts and is still alive can tell you the Scouting program doesn't really lean on religion that hard.

There was also that big resurgence during the Cold war, when atheists were communists, but it mostly depends on where you live whether or not it gets enforced.

I was in scouts in the 70s for almost a year in 7th grade, then moved to a different town for 8th grade. There, I joined a new troop and was a member for a couple of weeks before I got into a heated discussion about evolution after science class at school. One of the troop members told the adult leadership, who pulled me aside before the next meeting and asked me about it. They deemed I wasn't reverent enough and kicked me out (That troop was sponsored by a Methodist church).


Nothing stopped you from reregistering as a Lone Scout or joining another nearby troop.
 
2013-05-24 12:31:42 AM
So now the Bigoted Scouts of America are becoming the Tolerant Scouts of America!

*stands up and salutes monitor*

/just wanted to make a stupid TSA joke
 
2013-05-24 12:33:29 AM

xanadian: /just wanted to make a stupid TSA joke


You really stretched for that one.  Hope you did a warmup first.
 
2013-05-24 12:33:33 AM

Baloo Uriza: Mrtraveler01: The Boy Scouts are a fairly conservatively run organization but I guess even they saw the writing on the wall and realized how stupid it was to keep people out of what is otherwise a decent organization just because they're gay.

More like it got forced to a poll of regional council and district executives, and it turns out most of the locals don't give a shiat and couldn't figure out what the boys in Irving were smoking on.


Not just council and district folks...  I was just a long time assistant scoutmaster, never in any district or council positions whatsoever. About six months ago I received a survey about this very issue.  "Would I be OK with admitting gay youth to Scouting", "Would I be OK with scout leaders being gay", etc.  I replied that I thought highly of Scouting as a concept, but that they had to either change their position on the matter or soon risk become irrelevant.
 
2013-05-24 12:35:03 AM

hlehmann: Baloo Uriza: Mrtraveler01: The Boy Scouts are a fairly conservatively run organization but I guess even they saw the writing on the wall and realized how stupid it was to keep people out of what is otherwise a decent organization just because they're gay.

More like it got forced to a poll of regional council and district executives, and it turns out most of the locals don't give a shiat and couldn't figure out what the boys in Irving were smoking on.

Not just council and district folks...  I was just a long time assistant scoutmaster, never in any district or council positions whatsoever. About six months ago I received a survey about this very issue.  "Would I be OK with admitting gay youth to Scouting", "Would I be OK with scout leaders being gay", etc.  I replied that I thought highly of Scouting as a concept, but that they had to either change their position on the matter or soon risk become irrelevant.


Yeah, it had been a long time since I participated in those, I couldn't remember if I got a ballot once before because I was an assistant scoutmaster or because my other uniform had silver epaulets.
 
2013-05-24 12:37:58 AM

hlehmann: The troop that both of my sons joined is chartered by a Catholic church, and yet here I am, an athiest since I was old enough to know the difference.  Being involved in Scout activities, in my opinion, is far better for boys that not, and the Catholics, as wacky as they may be, have given us support and a meeting hall since long before I've been with the troop.  I have never had a bad word to say about about any of the members of this [articular church, it's the religion that I can't stand.


Yeah. The irony in my case is that a Catholic school I went to sponsored my first troop in 7th grade. At that school, we studied evolution and genetic heritage in science class (simple things like Punnett squares and Gregor Mendel, but I was really enthusiastic about it).

When I got to the new town in 8th grade, genetics and evolution were all still mysticism to my new public school classmates. What I'd learned in Catholic school  was the basis of the arguments that got me thrown out of Scouts.
 
2013-05-24 12:51:21 AM

Baloo Uriza: Nothing stopped you from reregistering as a Lone Scout or joining another nearby troop.


It was easier to just find something else to do. Who wants to work that hard to get the approval of a bunch of tattletales and jerks who just threw you out?
 
2013-05-24 12:53:13 AM

Baloo Uriza: wildsnowllama: brapbrapbrap: Aren't scouts 12 years old or something? How many "openly gay" 12 year olds are there? Can't remember any at my school.

Scouts are up to 18 aren't they?

21 in some divisions (Sea Scout ships, whatever Air Scout wings might still be lingering after Homeland Security pretty much killed it, Explorer posts, troop venture crews).


Just for general information:

Explorer posts have traditionally had higher top and bottom age limits (currently running from about 14 to 21, the bottom age was generally around 16 when I was active in the 80s and 90s) than main line Scout Troops, and were already co-ed at the time.  The Venture crew concept was getting kicked around *again* at that time... it was originally pitched as an organized sports based unit that kind of downplayed traditional scout skills to get a better foothold in urban areas.  Since I left, Explorers pretty much became a Vocational/Tech focused program, with all the advanced skills and High Adventure (a lot of which require higher minimum ages - everything from firearms to SCUBA to rappelling and whitewater rafting) getting placed in a repurposed co-ed Venture program.

Since the molestation shenanigans in the 80s, the National Headquarters developed some fairly comprehensive (if more than occasionally comical) youth protection guidelines - such as Two Deep Adult Leadership, which is taught generally at the District level (roughly county based, but with all things, YMMV).  As a side note, the same course is given to all summer camp staff annually.

I really don't see what all the hand wringing was about.  When I was a camp counselor, there were at least three guys on staff that were gay, and not a fark was given.  In terms of youth protection, take a cue from Canadian Scouting (where mainline troops have been co-ed forever) if you really need to fill gaps in your troop guidelines.  With the higher ages of youth participation, and the semi-detached nature of the Venture and Explorer system, I'll lay money that openly gay adult leaders will first be allowed there.  It should have happened years ago... the question was a big enough discussion that it came up at my Eagle murder board back in '94.
 
2013-05-24 01:37:02 AM

Lenny_da_Hog: Baloo Uriza: Nothing stopped you from reregistering as a Lone Scout or joining another nearby troop.

It was easier to just find something else to do. Who wants to work that hard to get the approval of a bunch of tattletales and jerks who just threw you out?


That tends to be troop-specific moronics.
 
2013-05-24 01:42:01 AM

FloridaWombat: It should have happened years ago... the question was a big enough discussion that it came up at my Eagle murder board back in '94.


How'd the murder board go?
 
2013-05-24 08:16:23 AM
Still don't allow gay scout leaders or atheists, though.

/fark the Mormons for imposing their twisted values on the scouts
 
2013-05-24 08:24:08 AM

Lenny_da_Hog: Gunny Highway: Lenny_da_Hog: loser0: TheWhoppah: So, are the Boys Scouts still a hate group or does this fix that?

Completely. It's still completely legal, moral, and acceptable to hate atheists  and agnostics.

They don't care which religion you believe, as long as you don't question. Kind of like Alcoholics Anonymous.

Scouts in RI must be alot different than other places.

Then they don't follow the national BSA bylaws.

Section 1. Declaration of Religious Principle, clause 1. The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law." The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.


When did they add that? When I was in scouts religion and god never came up.
 
2013-05-24 08:25:37 AM

abb3w: The historic vote, with 60% in favor, signals another shift in American public opinion about homosexuality but still leaves the organization with many future hurdles.

The hurdles get smaller to the future.

[a.imageshack.us image 850x575]

Kisses, gang.
[ib2.huluim.com image 600x400]


kinda sad that change basically awaits the death of the older generations. No wonder people living longer and longer is a terrible thing, it means change slows down.
 
2013-05-24 08:37:40 AM

Tyrone Slothrop: When did they add that? When I was in scouts religion and god never came up.


Same here.  I think it depends on where you are from and the leadership in your town.
 
2013-05-24 08:59:55 AM

nekom: WordyGrrl: This is excellent news! Gay kids have a tough enough time growing up, having to face abuse from bigots and homophobes (not to mention the parents who sometimes disown them). This kind of peer support can go a long way in making sure they grow up to be decent, well-adjusted human beings.

The times they are a'changing.  Hell even when I was a kid in the not so long ago 1980s, people weren't openly gay for the most part.  Now they are, and that's what's driving this.  I'm not gay, but I know gay people.  Beloved family of mine and my wife's happen to be gay.  I'm not alone in that.  When you put a face to it, it takes it from being an abstract concept "Should gays have equal rights?"  into something a lot more personal "Should my uncle, aunt, sister, brother, etc. who happens to be gay have the same rights that I do?"  That, I believe, is what's truly behind this social shift, and I applaud any advances toward full equality, however small the boy scout thing may seem to be.


Boom! You hit the nail on the head with that. The more gay people who come out, the more straight people realize that gay folks aren't "strange, foreign, other" and that they really DO know regular, everyday people who are gay. And some of those gay people happen to be family members, friends, etc. Aside from the dating/mating habits, we're really not all that different after all.
 
2013-05-24 09:44:55 AM
Will there be a Party n Play merit badge, now?
 
2013-05-24 09:55:47 AM

Raspil: the bigotry today that is on Twitter about this is nauseating.

http://publicshaming.tumblr.com/post/51189655685/hateful-bigots-thin k- gay-children-will-destroy-the-boy


Wow, there are people who seriously think there is some kind of gay mafia? Or is this some kind of nickname for pro-gay-rights forces?
 
2013-05-24 09:57:58 AM

Lenny_da_Hog: They're still a group of bigots. They still say you can't be moral if you're non-religious.

Also, they still say gays aren't suitable to be scout leaders and volunteers --  basically, they're accepting gays into the ranks while telling them how awful they will be as adults.


Yup. But even if they were to fix all that, there's still the issue of dressing your kid up like a dork and sending him to some dork church to hang out with a bunch of other dorks in their how-to-be-the-dorkiest-dorkass-dork-who-ever-dorked dork meetings. What I'm saying is, they're a bunch of farking dorks. Seriously.
 
2013-05-24 09:59:56 AM

cc_rider: TheWhoppah: So, are the Boys Scouts still a hate group or does this fix that?

I'm pretty sure the "hating" came from the adults and a bunch of asshole religious leaders. I'd wager the actual scouts had fark-all to do with it.


Indeed. I remember a newspaper article from like 1998 where the reporter asked a bunch of Scouts what they thought of the possibility of gay members. They said they didn't care, as long as they didn't hit on them.
 
2013-05-24 10:45:42 AM
They quoted some 16 year old who said something about how he wanted to be a scout like his brother who is 20. The cutoff age is 18 in scouting, but most quit by 16. But I digress.


Apparently being 16 today is different than when I was 16. For him to be gay means he's had buttsex. At age 16. /facepalm.
 
2013-05-24 10:51:06 AM

Lenny_da_Hog: They're still a group of bigots. They still say you can't be moral if you're non-religious.

Also, they still say gays aren't suitable to be scout leaders and volunteers --  basically, they're accepting gays into the ranks while telling them how awful they will be as adults.


Nope, you're a bigot though. Hating people for the way they think or the opinions they hold. You hate them so much that they aren't allowed to have their private club anymore because you harassed them so much.

On the other hand, the scouts were perfectly OK with gays existing and having their own private clubs. That's called tolerance, something you could use some of.
 
2013-05-24 10:52:54 AM

CommiePuddin: I'm still confused as to why we care about the sexual orientation of 12-18 year-old boys.

If it's sexual conduct within the troop, well, BSA already runs a program that includes girls (Venturers), so model the general policy after whatever is there.

/Why was this hard?


Why do elementary/middle/high schools have separate locker rooms for boys and girls? Because it is a very bad idea to allow unsupervised teens alone with each other who are sexually attracted to each other.

There was already an issue with beer, drugs and porn with scouts, especially at summer camp. Now they can add buttsex to the list.
 
2013-05-24 11:24:55 AM
Worth adding that we'll see if this changes the Boy Scouts like the Girl Scouts. It is pretty well known at this point that the Girl Scouts are a lesbian-recruiting organization. The BSA added a girls option in Ventures because no one really wants to be in the Girl Scouts anymore.
 
2013-05-24 11:30:17 AM

GoldSpider: TheWhoppah: So, are the Boys Scouts still a hate group or does this fix that?

A lot of scouts attended rallies against the resolution, whether or not they even realized what it was about.  There's likely still a lot of damage that needs repaired yet.


Most of will leave. I will retire the troop colors an disband our unit. There will be a new national faith baised scouting group with standards to keep out this evil sickness. DADT went away in the army and gay on straight assaults jumped up overnight the homosexuals have no respect or self control. The B S A council can shove this new policy, I will burn my uniform with the troop colors.
 
2013-05-24 11:49:23 AM

abb3w: The historic vote, with 60% in favor, signals another shift in American public opinion about homosexuality but still leaves the organization with many future hurdles.

The hurdles get smaller to the future.

[a.imageshack.us image 850x575]
a.imageshack.us


Weird, how every generation gets more and more open-minded, except for those farkers from the 50s, who apparently regressed for a bit!
 
2013-05-24 03:12:32 PM

RobSeace: Weird, how every generation gets more and more open-minded, except for those farkers from the 50s, who apparently regressed for a bit!


Looking at the GSS data in depth, it looks more a sampling anomaly of the 1940s cohort, and in turn only in 2012; not too surprising given a N=135 sub-sample. If you include data from the GSS 2004-2012, the trend is pretty smooth.
 
2013-05-24 11:12:21 PM

RobSeace: Weird, how every generation gets more and more open-minded, except for those farkers from the 50s, who apparently regressed for a bit!


The chart refers to adult gay marriage, not encouraging homosexuality among children.
 
2013-05-25 03:00:48 AM
Alleyoop

The chart refers to adult gay same-sex marriage, not encouraging acknowledging homosexuality among children.

FT2XFY
 
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