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(Mother Jones)   "Hey coppers, see this AK-47? It's mine because I built it. It's totally legal. And you can not trace it what-so-ever"   (motherjones.com) divider line 214
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19054 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 May 2013 at 11:23 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-23 10:30:35 AM
www.motherjones.com
lh5.ggpht.com
 
2013-05-23 10:40:49 AM
This is news?  Who the hell doesn't know this?  Have none of you been to a gun show?  Seen parts magazines?
 
2013-05-23 11:02:27 AM

basemetal: This is news?  Who the hell doesn't know this?  Have none of you been to a gun show?  Seen parts magazines?


Next up: Ric Romero.

And God help you if John Law catches you with an unnumbered gun around here.  You'll be going with the nice policeman to sort things out, law or no law.
 
2013-05-23 11:05:09 AM
There was some very casual conflation of "automatic" and "semi-automatic" action typical of this type of piece.  The weapon they were assembling, while terrifying-looking to any Back to the Future fan, were semi-auto rifles.  However, the bump-fire stocks are out there and while they don't make for the most accurate shooting, neither do military, automatic-fire rifles.  See for yourself.
 
2013-05-23 11:12:47 AM

Marcus Aurelius: God help you if John Law catches you with an unnumbered gun around here.  You'll be going with the nice policeman to sort things out, law or no law.


Yes, but if you stay very calm and rational and explain the law in detail and remain patient, at the end of the day they'll have to let you go. And as a bonus, if they cross any lines, you might win yourself some money via a lawsuit. :p

I'm a strong proponent of assault weapons bans and increased firearms regulation, but I absolutely admire their ingenuity in taking the time to fully learn and understand the law, so as to tiptoe the line exactly. It's not THEIR fault the law in inexact and poorly written.
 
2013-05-23 11:24:44 AM
We can't have registration because then everyone will just make their own guns, which they don't do now, because reasons.

The derp never stops with these people. Thanks for outlining another loophole for us to close though. Maybe we'll start tracking people who buy very specialized materials, legally of course.

But ultimately, who cares? The skill to make such a weapon is specialized, time consuming, and highly prone to error. Just don't ask the government to bail out your medical bills when you blow off your hand/arm.
 
2013-05-23 11:28:24 AM

whistleridge: I'm a strong proponent of assault weapons bans and increased firearms regulation, but I absolutely admire their ingenuity in taking the time to fully learn and understand the law, so as to tiptoe the line exactly. It's not THEIR fault the law in inexact and poorly written.


This. I guess the article writer wants us to be scared, but I was impressed.
 
2013-05-23 11:29:09 AM

justtray: The derp never stops with these people. Thanks for outlining another loophole for us to close though. Maybe we'll start tracking people who buy very specialized materials, legally of course.


You mean specialized materials like shiat shovels?
 
2013-05-23 11:29:15 AM
I skimmed the article so I might have missed this, but what is the barrel composed of?  I'm just curious as to how much these home made machines can take before they explode.
 
2013-05-23 11:29:21 AM

factoryconnection: There was some very casual conflation of "automatic" and "semi-automatic" action typical of this type of piece.  The weapon they were assembling, while terrifying-looking to any Back to the Future fan, were semi-auto rifles.  However, the bump-fire stocks are out there and while they don't make for the most accurate shooting, neither do military, automatic-fire rifles.  See for yourself.


My understanding is that full-automatic is essentially only useful as suppressive fire on the ground. Anyone around here have contrary experience?
 
2013-05-23 11:30:46 AM
I'm sure once you start using your long rifle for illegal purposes, the police won't have that much trouble finding you via the noise you're making and killing you.  If I applied myself to chemistry and getting the components, I could make mustard gas.  Clearly any antisocial moron can make a black powder bomb, etc.

Basically all this really shows is what a lot of people have been saying about the printer gun crazy.  If you really need that kind of firepower, you'll just covertly have a machine stop spitting them out somewhere.  About all the printer does it mean you order fewer parts from Honest Vlad's Arms Bazaar.
 
2013-05-23 11:32:45 AM
encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com
 
2013-05-23 11:33:24 AM
Still won't stop a drone strike or a tank.  Still useless for 2nd amendment's intended purpose.  Still adolescent power fantasy.
 
2013-05-23 11:33:58 AM

chrylis: My understanding is that full-automatic is essentially only useful as suppressive fire on the ground. Anyone around here have contrary experience?


If you have your weapon mounted to something where the gun remains stable despite being at full auto, it's pretty farking awesome and accurate.  Lots of chain guns mounted to ships, aircraft, armored vehicles, are extremely accurate, but of course the mounting and aiming mechanisms that go with that kind of gun cost hundreds of thousands if not millions.  In terms of something you're shooting off your shoulder, bipord, or tripod, full auto isn't going to be that accurate.
 
2013-05-23 11:35:07 AM
just a gentle reminder to web sites.  Unless you have vital info I need, when I click on a link, and see instead of an article, an advert, 9 times out of 10 I just close the whole thing.

Can imagine that is good for the website's business for me to never see it, just saying.
 
2013-05-23 11:36:28 AM

ikanreed: Still won't stop a drone strike or a tank.  Still useless for 2nd amendment's intended purpose.  Still adolescent power fantasy.


How is a semi-automatic rifle useless in arming the unorganized militia?
 
2013-05-23 11:36:29 AM
I'm reminded of what one of the build party hosts said before I left: "Remember that thing I told you about why people do this: These builds can happen only because they aren't blown out to the public and law enforcement."

In other words, the first rule of gun building parties is to not talk about gun building parties.

Now that he has written this article, politicians will shiat themselves trying to ban these parties.
 
2013-05-23 11:37:41 AM

PsyLord: I skimmed the article so I might have missed this, but what is the barrel composed of?  I'm just curious as to how much these home made machines can take before they explode.


Cheap steel, one step out of the Bronze Age.
 
2013-05-23 11:37:48 AM

ha-ha-guy: chrylis: My understanding is that full-automatic is essentially only useful as suppressive fire on the ground. Anyone around here have contrary experience?

If you have your weapon mounted to something where the gun remains stable despite being at full auto, it's pretty farking awesome and accurate.  Lots of chain guns mounted to ships, aircraft, armored vehicles, are extremely accurate, but of course the mounting and aiming mechanisms that go with that kind of gun cost hundreds of thousands if not millions.  In terms of something you're shooting off your shoulder, bipord, or tripod, full auto isn't going to be that accurate.


I'd figure that a full auto AK would blow through the rounds in the mag in 1-2 seconds.  So not really useful.  I think that's why there is a switch for a 3 round burst fire or semi-auto in most automatic weapons these days.

/not a gun nut, so could be talking out of my @ss.
 
2013-05-23 11:38:34 AM
It is completely legal to produce your own firearms.

However, it is a very exact science. If you screw up; you've made a bomb.

Even part kits aren't fool proof. If you don't know what you are doing; you can hurt yourself or others.

/ I'd like to build my own Kalashnikov; but, don't have the time to do it properly
 
2013-05-23 11:38:44 AM

PsyLord: I skimmed the article so I might have missed this, but what is the barrel composed of?  I'm just curious as to how much these home made machines can take before they explode.


They are reassembled from 'parts kits' that are basically full original AKs minus a receiver. This kit came with an incomplete receiver, which was a bend shy of completion. After the gun is re-assembled, assuming it was done properly, it's as reliable and long-lived as any factory AK. Because it's basically a refurbished rifle done by the guy who assembled it. If it was not assembled right, then it won't function properly to begin with.
 
2013-05-23 11:38:54 AM

PsyLord: I skimmed the article so I might have missed this, but what is the barrel composed of?  I'm just curious as to how much these home made machines can take before they explode.


The receiver is the only part of the gun that's tracked, and that's basically just a metal box that holds everything together.  It's not airtight and doesn't have to sustain any pressure, just some mechanical wear.  Everything else, including the barrel, are standard parts that you would find in any over the counter gun.  So to answer your question, they'd hold up as well as something you'd buy at the shop.
 
2013-05-23 11:39:23 AM

PsyLord: I skimmed the article so I might have missed this, but what is the barrel composed of?  I'm just curious as to how much these home made machines can take before they explode.


You buy the barrels, which are uncontrolled.

You could, though, make your own barrels with a simple used drill press, lathe, and if you wanted to get really fancy, a home-made rifling machine built on to that used lathe.
 
2013-05-23 11:40:17 AM
M- Mother Jones?! Is that you? ...Are you teaching people to make guns?
gregoryforman.com
 
2013-05-23 11:40:20 AM

justtray: Just don't ask the government to bail out your medical bills when you blow off your hand/arm.


Why should this poor life choice be treated any differently than any other poor life choice that many Americans now expect the government to rescue them from?
 
2013-05-23 11:40:39 AM

chrylis: My understanding is that full-automatic is essentially only useful as suppressive fire on the ground. Anyone around here have contrary experience?


Also, suppressing fire is criminally underrated at times.  For example we practiced the line advance where one guy opens fire on full auto and just fills the air with bullets from a 30 round magazine.  Everyone on the line is walking forward.  When he's out, the next guy in the line opens fire, the first guy goes for a reload.  When the second guy is out, the third guy opens fire, the first and second guys are now reloading and so on and so forth.  By the time you reach the end of the line the first guy should be reloaded and the process begins again.

More importantly by this time you should be at your target and you can kill it.  It's effective against smaller guerrilla units who are pinned down (and short on formal training and things like frag grenades to throw over their cover at you).  I'd venture to say it also may be effective against a cop with only a handgun hiding behind his cruiser. Probably not so great against a SWAT Team with sniper support, body armor, and the works.
 
2013-05-23 11:40:58 AM

Frank N Stein: ikanreed: Still won't stop a drone strike or a tank.  Still useless for 2nd amendment's intended purpose.  Still adolescent power fantasy.

How is a semi-automatic rifle useless in arming the unorganized militia?


Wasn't the intent of the 2nd amendment so that the people can rise up against the government if the government became despotic and turned on its citizens?  Arming the militia with semi-auto weapons would prove ineffective against drones, tanks, grenade launchers, mortars, apache gunships, fighter jets, bombers, etc that the government would have access to.
 
2013-05-23 11:41:36 AM
Wow, these are some grade "A" geniuses here. Manufacturing a fully-automatic class III firearm without proper licensing is a federal crime and the ATF will be at your door faster than you can say "Kalashnikov." You can't make an illegal gun for your locality (dependent on local laws), no matter where you are in the US.
 
2013-05-23 11:41:58 AM
I believe Jeremy Clarkson put it best about "hand-made" automobiles: that is, it's code for "the door will fall off."

I'm assuming that a semi-automatic rifle assembled by someone unable to wield a Sharpie in a manner conducive to correctly printing "CONSTITUTION" on a piece of cardboard will have a similar failure rate.
 
2013-05-23 11:42:06 AM

dittybopper: PsyLord: I skimmed the article so I might have missed this, but what is the barrel composed of?  I'm just curious as to how much these home made machines can take before they explode.

You buy the barrels, which are uncontrolled.

You could, though, make your own barrels with a simple used drill press, lathe, and if you wanted to get really fancy, a home-made rifling machine built on to that used lathe.


Ditty,
You could 'try' to make your own barrels.  I've looked into it because I think the process is pretty cool, but without some specialized equipment the accuracy will be non-existent.
 
2013-05-23 11:42:31 AM

Whatthefark: I'm reminded of what one of the build party hosts said before I left: "Remember that thing I told you about why people do this: These builds can happen only because they aren't blown out to the public and law enforcement."

In other words, the first rule of gun building parties is to not talk about gun building parties.

Now that he has written this article, politicians will shiat themselves trying to ban these parties.


There is no way to stop this sort of thing, oops, forgot, this is 2013, where an FBI can enter your home and murder you, unarmed, "for an interview".
Anyhoo, teach your children well,,,
 
2013-05-23 11:43:40 AM
Yeah, SURE he cut his up, uh-huh....
 
2013-05-23 11:43:45 AM

DeathCipris: Wow, these are some grade "A" geniuses here. Manufacturing a fully-automatic class III firearm without proper licensing is a federal crime and the ATF will be at your door faster than you can say "Kalashnikov." You can't make an illegal gun for your locality (dependent on local laws), no matter where you are in the US.


They were building them up as semi-autos. To be fair, the article was not super clear about that.
 
2013-05-23 11:44:10 AM

Whatthefark: I'm reminded of what one of the build party hosts said before I left: "Remember that thing I told you about why people do this: These builds can happen only because they aren't blown out to the public and law enforcement."

In other words, the first rule of gun building parties is to not talk about gun building parties.

Now that he has written this article, politicians will shiat themselves trying to ban these parties.


Ain't gonna matter.

Guns have already been produced on consumer grade 3D printers.

In fact, you can 3D print an AR-15 lower now.  They have one that will go 600+ rounds.  Imagine being able to buy a printer for, what?  $1,000 and printing out as many AR-15 receivers as you want.  All completely untraceable.
 
2013-05-23 11:44:16 AM

basemetal: This is news?  Who the hell doesn't know this?  Have none of you been to a gun show?  Seen parts magazines?


Some libs don't know this.  And some of them actually believe that magazines cannot be reloaded either.
http://www.mrconservative.com/2013/04/10312-liberal-congresswoman-di dn t-know-gun-magazines-can-be-reloaded-seeks-ban-anyway/

How they think that they can write any legislation worth a damn without knowing anything about the subject is beyond me.
 
2013-05-23 11:44:44 AM

ikanreed: Still won't stop a drone strike or a tank.  Still useless for 2nd amendment's intended purpose.  Still adolescent power fantasy.


I thought those things were not much use against an insurgency.

Are they suddenly effective? Is that why we were out of Iraq and Afghanistan in six months?
 
2013-05-23 11:45:54 AM

PsyLord: Frank N Stein: ikanreed: Still won't stop a drone strike or a tank.  Still useless for 2nd amendment's intended purpose.  Still adolescent power fantasy.

How is a semi-automatic rifle useless in arming the unorganized militia?

Wasn't the intent of the 2nd amendment so that the people can rise up against the government if the government became despotic and turned on its citizens?  Arming the militia with semi-auto weapons would prove ineffective against drones, tanks, grenade launchers, mortars, apache gunships, fighter jets, bombers, etc that the government would have access to.


The 2nd amendment's purpose is for the arming of the unorganized militia. What the militia may have to fight against is pure conjecture.

Now tell me how a semi-automatic rifle is useless in arming a militia.
 
2013-05-23 11:47:42 AM

parkke0108: dittybopper: PsyLord: I skimmed the article so I might have missed this, but what is the barrel composed of?  I'm just curious as to how much these home made machines can take before they explode.

You buy the barrels, which are uncontrolled.

You could, though, make your own barrels with a simple used drill press, lathe, and if you wanted to get really fancy, a home-made rifling machine built on to that used lathe.

Ditty,
You could 'try' to make your own barrels.  I've looked into it because I think the process is pretty cool, but without some specialized equipment the accuracy will be non-existent.


Just like a "real" AK, there is no as you say, accuracy.
CSB, I have run from a few AKs, once or twice upon a time, and they can't hit chit past 30-40 meters.
Barrels are actually pretty easy, and accuracy is "serviceable".
 
2013-05-23 11:47:51 AM

PsyLord: 'd figure that a full auto AK would blow through the rounds in the mag in 1-2 seconds.  So not really useful.  I think that's why there is a switch for a 3 round burst fire or semi-auto in most automatic weapons these days.

/not a gun nut, so could be talking out of my @ss.


I'm not really into Soviet Bloc weapons, so I had to check the wiki which has the full auto rate of fire at 600/min.  So 600 rounds /60 seconds = 30 rounds / 3 seconds.  If you toss on a 50 round drum magazine you're looking at 5 seconds.  Of course with good trigger control you can milk it and put up 5 to 8 round bursts will sound like full auto but extend how long it takes you.  If you have three squad mates with you, collective you should be able to produce 15 to 30 seconds of full auto fire with one magazine each if you're good at milking it.

Solo of course you always want to operate like a sniper.
 
2013-05-23 11:48:39 AM
Wait, I thought the receiver was still regulated thus the issue with 3d printers and why to manufacture them you have to register with the ATF?
 
2013-05-23 11:48:48 AM

PsyLord: I skimmed the article so I might have missed this, but what is the barrel composed of?  I'm just curious as to how much these home made machines can take before they explode.


From what I understand from TFA, the only part that needs to be home made for the gun to count as "home made" is the receiver, a part that isn't under much stress. The other parts are all from actual AKs that are disassembled in other countries then shipped legally as "replacement" parts. And by "home made", they mean they make a receiver-like object in a factory here that can very easily be converted into a receiver by an amateur at one of these parties by bending it in a vice, then you assemble your identical-to-store-bought-but-untraceable AK.
 
2013-05-23 11:49:14 AM

bluefox3681: basemetal: This is news?  Who the hell doesn't know this?  Have none of you been to a gun show?  Seen parts magazines?

Some libs don't know this.  And some of them actually believe that magazines cannot be reloaded either.
http://www.mrconservative.com/2013/04/10312-liberal-congresswoman-di dn t-know-gun-magazines-can-be-reloaded-seeks-ban-anyway/

How they think that they can write any legislation worth a damn without knowing anything about the subject is beyond me.


It is just part of that "God Complex" thingie.
 
2013-05-23 11:49:14 AM

PsyLord: Frank N Stein: ikanreed: Still won't stop a drone strike or a tank.  Still useless for 2nd amendment's intended purpose.  Still adolescent power fantasy.

How is a semi-automatic rifle useless in arming the unorganized militia?

Wasn't the intent of the 2nd amendment so that the people can rise up against the government if the government became despotic and turned on its citizens?  Arming the militia with semi-auto weapons would prove ineffective against drones, tanks, grenade launchers, mortars, apache gunships, fighter jets, bombers, etc that the government would have access to.


In a stand up conventional battle, yes, any bunch of people armed with just semi-auto rifles would get slaughtered quickly, but that's been true since, well, pretty much forever:  Governments can always afford bigger and more powerful weapons.

That's why guerrilla campaigns don't have as their main strategy "Hey, let's get involved in an open battle with overwhelming government forces!".

Plus, you don't have to be able to win.  You just have to make it so potentially expensive that they won't try in the first place, or, if they are stupid enough, you have to make it expensive enough in monetary and political capital that they eventually give up.
 
2013-05-23 11:51:01 AM

snocone: parkke0108: dittybopper:
Ditty,
You could 'try' to make your own barrels.  I've looked into it because I think the process is pretty cool, but without some specialized equipment the accuracy will be non-existent.

Just like a "real" AK, there is no as you say, accuracy.
CSB, I have run from a few AKs, once or twice upon a time, and they can't hit chit past 30-40 meters.
Barrels are actually pretty easy, and accuracy is "serviceable".


Well, if you only care about 30m then go for it.  I enjoy shooting .22-250 (handloads), so I'm all about the accuracy.
 
2013-05-23 11:51:41 AM

chrylis: factoryconnection: There was some very casual conflation of "automatic" and "semi-automatic" action typical of this type of piece.  The weapon they were assembling, while terrifying-looking to any Back to the Future fan, were semi-auto rifles.  However, the bump-fire stocks are out there and while they don't make for the most accurate shooting, neither do military, automatic-fire rifles.  See for yourself.

My understanding is that full-automatic is essentially only useful as suppressive fire on the ground. Anyone around here have contrary experience?


I carried an M249 machine gun during my first deployment to Iraq.  It is rather heavy so it absorbs a lot of recoil and is still a 5.56mm so there is not much recoil to absorb.  The bipod that it comes with makes it rather accurate if you use controlled bursts.  Putting it on a turret or fixed position mount makes it dead accurate.  Accuracy does become an issue with automatic fire as the weapon gets smaller or the caliber increases.
 
2013-05-23 11:51:57 AM
To answer a farker above. I've shot full auto rifles/pistols. AK's jump high, but I can keep a 9mm sub machine gun on target no problem; most adults could. Even better are the .22LR conversion kits, no jump. That is the way to do it. You don't unload like in the movies (although that is fun). Bursts pulls, ~5 rounds on with super fast pulls. for civilian shooting it's just like any other target shooting and a fun time. Legal full auto is not a crime problem. Even illegal full auto is so rare. go to a range that does it. It's expensive, but you'll have fun.
 
2013-05-23 11:52:19 AM

new_york_monty: DeathCipris: Wow, these are some grade "A" geniuses here. Manufacturing a fully-automatic class III firearm without proper licensing is a federal crime and the ATF will be at your door faster than you can say "Kalashnikov." You can't make an illegal gun for your locality (dependent on local laws), no matter where you are in the US.

They were building them up as semi-autos. To be fair, the article was not super clear about that.


Ah. Yea, it made it seem like they were making full auto AK's. They are towing a very, very fine line manufacturing firearms regardless of semi or full auto.
 
2013-05-23 11:53:03 AM

ha-ha-guy: PsyLord: 'd figure that a full auto AK would blow through the rounds in the mag in 1-2 seconds.  So not really useful.  I think that's why there is a switch for a 3 round burst fire or semi-auto in most automatic weapons these days.

/not a gun nut, so could be talking out of my @ss.

I'm not really into Soviet Bloc weapons, so I had to check the wiki which has the full auto rate of fire at 600/min.  So 600 rounds /60 seconds = 30 rounds / 3 seconds.  If you toss on a 50 round drum magazine you're looking at 5 seconds.  Of course with good trigger control you can milk it and put up 5 to 8 round bursts will sound like full auto but extend how long it takes you.  If you have three squad mates with you, collective you should be able to produce 15 to 30 seconds of full auto fire with one magazine each if you're good at milking it.

Solo of course you always want to operate like a sniper.


You need to work in jamming every 8-10 rounds, weapon is down for clearing, AK clears and starts up again, but your firing plan must adjust.
AKs ARE the lowest common denominator in the weapons world.
 
2013-05-23 11:53:47 AM

snocone: There is no way to stop this sort of thing,

...

Which is why I used the word "trying". They'll ever stop it, but they'll do their darndest to try.

It's the 'closing the barn door after the horse has bolted out' idiom.
 
2013-05-23 11:56:45 AM

Whatthefark: snocone: There is no way to stop this sort of thing,...

Which is why I used the word "trying". They'll ever stop it, but they'll do their darndest to try.

It's the 'closing the barn door after the horse has bolted out' idiom.


It is all for show. No gun grabber is worried about a few citizens that will get off their ass and actually build one.
Keep your eye on the ball, Disarm America.
 
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