If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(The Daily Beast)   In response to yesterday's story about suburban poverty, it turns out that suburbia has more poverty than cities because suburbia has more people. Math, how does it work?   (thedailybeast.com) divider line 52
    More: Followup, Joel Kotkin, suburbanites, Wendell Cox, subprime mortgage crisis, poverty, population growth  
•       •       •

2205 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 May 2013 at 10:48 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



52 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | » | Last | Show all
 
2013-05-22 10:51:18 AM  
encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com
 
2013-05-22 10:55:14 AM  
What you need is to look at your per capital
 
2013-05-22 10:55:15 AM  
%
 
2013-05-22 11:00:25 AM  

trappedspirit: What you need is to look at your per capital


and break it down by physical year.
 
2013-05-22 11:02:06 AM  
Any study that's trying to draw the line between US suburbs and metropolitan areas is going to hinge on definitions.

Good luck finding two of them that agree one where and why the line is set.
 
2013-05-22 11:07:26 AM  
"Slumscape" in Brooklyn? Clearly these people have no idea what a slum is like. And how farking elitist do you have to be to call poorer areas in Brooklyn a slum?
 
2013-05-22 11:10:54 AM  
I don't think these people have ever left the US.
Not to sound like a dick, but most people in the USA have no idea what real poverty is.
Almost all those that are considered to be in poverty in the USA would be considered rich by many others around the world.
 
2013-05-22 11:11:33 AM  
Roughly how many gallons of poverty are we talking about here?
 
2013-05-22 11:14:31 AM  

UrukHaiGuyz: Roughly how many gallons of poverty are we talking about here?


i believe it's roughly 1/5 a Rhode Island's worth.
 
2013-05-22 11:17:58 AM  
In Suburbia....a,a,aa
In Suburbia...
 
2013-05-22 11:29:48 AM  

lemortede: I don't think these people have ever left the US.
Not to sound like a dick, but most people in the USA have no idea what real poverty is.
Almost all those that are considered to be in poverty in the USA would be considered rich by many others around the world.


Please stop with the oversimplification of the poverty problem in America. There are children living in abandoned buses. People who live like nomads. People who genuinely do not know where their next meal will come from. You are hurting all of these people more when you continue to run with the narrative that American poor people are all simpletons who chose a new Xbox over groceries for the month.
 
2013-05-22 11:30:26 AM  

To The Escape Zeppelin!: "Slumscape" in Brooklyn? Clearly these people have no idea what a slum is like. And how farking elitist do you have to be to call poorer areas in Brooklyn a slum?


It's Daily Beast, they mastered elitist awhile ago
 
2013-05-22 11:33:26 AM  

lemortede: I don't think these people have ever left the US.
Not to sound like a dick, but most people in the USA have no idea what real poverty is.
Almost all those that are considered to be in poverty in the USA would be considered rich by many others around the world.


I take it you've never heard about West Virginia or the Pine Ridge reservation.
 
2013-05-22 11:37:53 AM  

lemortede: I don't think these people have ever left the US.
Not to sound like a dick, but most people in the USA have no idea what real poverty is.
Almost all those that are considered to be in poverty in the USA would be considered rich by many others around the world.


The US should be comparing itself to other first world countries, not Burkina Faso and Haiti.  Sorry, Burkina Faso and Haiti.
 
2013-05-22 11:43:06 AM  

lemortede: I don't think these people have ever left the US.
Not to sound like a dick, but most people in the USA have no idea what real poverty is.
Almost all those that are considered to be in poverty in the USA would be considered rich by many others around the world.


Good point. As long as the poor in the US are at least as well off as the poor in the Sudan, we don't have a poverty problem.
 
2013-05-22 11:45:26 AM  
Urban twits conflating facts to fit their worldview?

No way.  They only tell the truth.  They're truthers.
 
2013-05-22 11:49:15 AM  

IdBeCrazyIf: It's Daily Beast, they mastered elitist awhile ago


Jesus Christ, this. For someone ragging on the smugness of others, the author of this article sounded pretty gotdamn smug.
 
2013-05-22 11:50:31 AM  

lemortede: I don't think these people have ever left the US.
Not to sound like a dick, but most people in the USA have no idea what real poverty is.
Almost all those that are considered to be in poverty in the USA would be considered rich by many others around the world.


It is so awesome to live in a first world nation where we use the third world shiatholes of third world shiatholes as a metric in which to compare the lives of our poor to. Hey, our lower classes have it better than the lower classes in North Korea, so they are actually wealthy in the grand scheme of things.
 
2013-05-22 11:52:23 AM  
Well there are counties that are technically suburbs but really basically rural where most of the population are trailer park residents.
 
2013-05-22 11:52:40 AM  

Raging Thespian: IdBeCrazyIf: It's Daily Beast, they mastered elitist awhile ago

Jesus Christ, this. For someone ragging on the smugness of others, the author of this article sounded pretty gotdamn smug.


I don't think I can tip my pinky back far enough to reach the smug level Beast has attained.
 
2013-05-22 11:53:25 AM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: lemortede: I don't think these people have ever left the US.
Not to sound like a dick, but most people in the USA have no idea what real poverty is.
Almost all those that are considered to be in poverty in the USA would be considered rich by many others around the world.

Please stop with the oversimplification of the poverty problem in America. There are children living in abandoned buses. People who live like nomads. People who genuinely do not know where their next meal will come from. You are hurting all of these people more when you continue to run with the narrative that American poor people are all simpletons who chose a new Xbox over groceries for the month.


A resounding this.
 
2013-05-22 11:55:36 AM  
FTA: The sad fact is that in American cities, poor people-not hipsters or yuppies-constitute the fastest-growing population. In the core cities of the 51 metropolitan areas, of the population increase over the past decade was under the poverty line, compared to 32 percent of the suburban population increase.

Study after study has shown when cities STOP attracting new poor people, there's a major problem. Cities offer opportunities that more rural areas just can not and therefore, there will always be "slums" in a productive city.
 
2013-05-22 11:58:57 AM  

Resident Muslim: In Suburbia....a,a,aa
In Suburbia...


Leeeeet's take a riiiiiideeee...
 
2013-05-22 12:02:40 PM  
That was not really an article but something to fan who I should hate: Elitists? poors? minorities? city dwellers? suburbanites?

They should have also included unions. In my area unions were responsible for good wages that allowed many to move to the suburbs. Those communities are currently been dying with population loss and ageing with solid Democratic regions places turning into solid Republican ones.
 
2013-05-22 12:11:35 PM  
In other math news...

Outrage: Rich people pay more in taxes

Reality: Because they make more money
 
2013-05-22 12:13:02 PM  
Aah percentage vs absolute.

<csb>

One day while I was in the Army a particularly Army-minded Staff Sergeant squad leader opined that for every one Soldier of his rank that died in the war zone there were three Soldiers a step below him dying.  And for every one of them there were four Soldiers a step below them dying.  Obviously this meant that with experience your chances of dying were reduced (so he said), and thus we all needed to listen to his sage advice to help save us from being killed.

One of my squad mates quietly started drawing on a near by white board the standard hierarchy of a squad (of which this Staff Sergeant would be the top member of).

For every Staff Sergeant E-6, there are two to fourish Sergeant E-5s below them.  For every Sergeant E-5 there are three to sixish Privates/Specialists E-1 to E-4 below them.

So the death counts fit nicely into the ratios of the makeup of a squad.  Meaning that squads tend to die as a whole on average.  No one member is significantly more likely to die than any other based on their rank.


He sulked for the rest of the day.

</csb>
 
2013-05-22 12:13:56 PM  
Was the original article about poverty in suburbia relative to cities, growth in poverty in suburbia, or growth in poverty rate?  Not sure whether this article is criticizing the right thing.
 
2013-05-22 12:16:16 PM  
People become accustomed to their living conditions and then want more.  People never have enough so in a way we are all among the poor.
 
2013-05-22 12:18:55 PM  

Ambitwistor: Was the original article about poverty in suburbia relative to cities, growth in poverty in suburbia, or growth in poverty rate?  Not sure whether this article is criticizing the right thing.


There's links in the article that point back to the original articles.
 
2013-05-22 12:28:17 PM  

trappedspirit: People become accustomed to their living conditions and then want more.  People never have enough so in a way we are all among the poor.


You're sorta right for the wrong reasons. People are wealthy or poor relative to the society they live in. But yeah, due to wealth concentration we're all relatively poor.
 
2013-05-22 12:42:57 PM  
Again with this shiate?.  I thought I had put an end to all this with distortions, inaccurate facts, and inappropriate statements during yesterday's thread.  Do I need to start throwing around some more inane and not quite on topic data again?  Don't push me!  I will DO IT AGAIN!
 
2013-05-22 12:52:55 PM  

UrukHaiGuyz: trappedspirit: People become accustomed to their living conditions and then want more.  People never have enough so in a way we are all among the poor.

You're sorta right for the wrong reasons. People are wealthy or poor relative to the society they live in. But yeah, due to wealth concentration we're all relatively poor.


Maybe you are, but i did the smart thing and decided to move into the poorest neighborhood in which i felt halfway safe. It makes me feel like a king among serfs. I highly recommend it.
 
2013-05-22 12:55:51 PM  

To The Escape Zeppelin!: "Slumscape" in Brooklyn? Clearly these people have no idea what a slum is like. And how farking elitist do you have to be to call poorer areas in Brooklyn a slum?


definition of "slum": a densely populated usually urban area marked by crowding, dirty run-down housing, poverty, and social disorganization

there are definitely parts of Brooklyn like that: East NY, Brownsville, and parts of Bushwick
 
2013-05-22 12:57:01 PM  
I forget, is "urban" still a code word for "black?"
 
2013-05-22 12:57:56 PM  
No surprise there to me. I've been reading for decades about things like that--in everything from cartoons to sociology studies.

The rich were the first to flee to the suburbs. The upper classes (aristocracy, gentry) had country estates, scattered across the country. Some of them never visited these and were screwed over by corrupt franklins and bailiffs (or whatever the local name for estate managers was), some lived in exile in the country or spent the summer months there to escape the unimaginable filth, stink and disease of the cities. They came into town or to the Court (if not in the capital) during "the Season" to plot, intrigue and what was much the same thing, dip into the marriage market to sell off their sons and daughters.

With the rise of the bourgeoisie, the very rich moved to suburban estates as fast as means of transportation and communication would allow. The carraige, the post coach, the automobile, the train and finally the trolley car created suburbs around all the great cities and the not so great cities and towns.

But as housing will, the housing of the rich and the upper middle classes decayed and got too old to maintain properly, so they moved on, leaving their shells to the middle class hermit crabs, who in their turn left their shells to subdividers and slum lords.

This is natural. Adam Smith understood how the housing capital of England changed hands as fashion and new technology made old homes obsolete. In England today the upper classes and the upper middle classes are often living in the stables (Mews, they are called) of their ancestors, while the poor and teeming immigrants live in the grand but decaying shells of early XIXth century crescents and squares.

Cities grow and die like living organisms or ecologies and the poverty-slum suburb is the natural consequence of the ebb and flow of real estate, housing and jobs.

The reverse of gentrification also happens. Yesterday's posh but compact utility apartments for Yuppies are today's slums. Yuppies meanwhile move into drafty old warehouses and factories for the space, the freedom and the relatively low cost chic and light and airiness.

The suburbs created after World War Ii to house returning troops and the incepient Consumer or Affluent Society (called the Effluent Society a decade or two later) are now falling to pieces. Look at Detroit and what do you see? Ruins--lovely old Queen Anne houses from the 1890s falling down like old barns in the country. Massive collections of little houses built of ticky-tacky, little houses in a row turned into something not fit to serve as a chicken coop. Levittown in its death throes.

No surprises--just nature and commerce taking their course.

The rich moved out of the cities, the upper middle classes followed, then the middle classes, the working poor and finally you get the creation of areas where nobody works and all the houses are under water.

The cycle of creation and destruction older than the Elder Gods moves on as relentless and unstoppable as Juggernaut, the Destroyer of Worlds.

If you follow this cycle in cartoons you can start with Trolleyville and follow it through to Beavis & Butthead or beyond. Suburbs rising and falling like forests in a century long cycle.

Now the super-rich are building themselves skyscraper homes (in India) or renovating whole neighbourhoods with monster row houses and new eco-apartments. The cycle has run its course. The rich are moving back into city cores, taking advantage of rock-bottom prices and cities eager to clear away the ruins and empty lots.

Even before the current economic bust, the suburbs had a lot of invisible poverty: divorced women with children living in big, lovely houses on nothing a month; lonely elders whose pensions no longer pay the property taxes; singles with no jobs; families with no breadwinner; all hidden in genteel poverty behind facades that although fugly as Hell, are new, modern and prosperous looking.

And plus ça change. I've read a lot of PUNCH magazine articles and similar humour and social commentary covering about two centuries of social change. The shabby genteel were the subject of English comic writing well before Thackeray lost his money and had to turn to writing, and before the debtor's son, Charles Dickens turned his intelligence, wrath, humour and satire upon what was later to become Dickensian England.

Banks too big to fail, corrupt politicians, stupid city councils, and all the other bric-à-brac of Thackeray and Dickens and Love on the Dole can be found in any American city or town from New York City's Five Burroughs to hundreds of thousands of Podunk's too small for a WalMart or even a truck stop on the highway.
 
2013-05-22 01:07:32 PM  
Many of the rich have fled so far into the country, they are living in the better sort of Philip K. Dick dystopia.

They can only be reached by air--they have small private planes and helicopters and their homes are in forests or on mountain slopes. Everything SF imagines finds a life in reality because the SF is simply observant of what is going on NOW. The future is always NOW somewhere.

The mere rich may have a small huddle, a sort of very small, very posh ex-urb, with monster homes that will cost the taxpayer plenty to replace every few decades, but the super-rich have places like that airplane community in Florida where avid aviationist and light-in-the-loafer megastar John Travolta lives. THOSE PEOPLE DON'T HAVE PIPER CUBS. Some of them don't even have Lear Jets or Challengers. Their private airport can handle a 737 or larger plane, which is proven by the parking lot.

Those of us who can't afford to be the heroes of Philip K. Dick novels, may live like the anti-heroes and supernumeraries in cities half abandoned or which are scarcely distinguishable from ruins. Dick was as prescient as Vonnegut, Jr; Aldous Huxley; and George Orwell. Their futures are today and for some of us, already yesterday.
 
2013-05-22 01:15:59 PM  
The War On Poverty has taught us one thing. We don't know how to fix it.

/donate to your local food bank and Goodwill
 
2013-05-22 01:21:54 PM  

edmo: In other math news...

Outrage: Rich people pay more in taxes

Reality: Because they make more money



i1035.photobucket.com
 
2013-05-22 01:22:41 PM  

jaybeezey: UrukHaiGuyz: trappedspirit: People become accustomed to their living conditions and then want more.  People never have enough so in a way we are all among the poor.

You're sorta right for the wrong reasons. People are wealthy or poor relative to the society they live in. But yeah, due to wealth concentration we're all relatively poor.

Maybe you are, but i did the smart thing and decided to move into the poorest neighborhood in which i felt halfway safe. It makes me feel like a king among serfs. I highly recommend it.


Oh I've got no complaints. I live fairly comfortably within my means and no longer stress about rent or meals, which to me is the dividing line between poor and desperately poor. Thing is, sometimes that's a mighty thin line and it only takes one really bad day to put you back in the latter category if you have no real wealth accumulated.
 
2013-05-22 01:40:49 PM  

Ego edo infantia cattus:
[i1035.photobucket.com image 702x318]


i1035.photobucket.com
 
2013-05-22 01:43:24 PM  
America's suburbs, noted one British journalist, are becoming "ghost towns" as middle-class former suburbanites migrate to the central core. That's simply untrue: both the 2010 Census and other more recent analyses demonstrate that America is becoming steadily more suburban: 44 million Americans live in America's 51 major metropolitan areas, while nearly 122 million Americans live in their suburbs.

Stating that there are currently more people in the suburbs than the cities does nothing to disprove that suburbanites are migrating to the central core.

Are math and statistics really this hard?
 
2013-05-22 01:51:28 PM  

brantgoose: This is natural. Adam Smith understood how the housing capital of England changed hands as fashion and new technology made old homes obsolete. In England today the upper classes and the upper middle classes are often living in the stables (Mews, they are called) of their ancestors, while the poor and teeming immigrants live in the grand but decaying shells of early XIXth century crescents and squares.


Umm... The Mews are about the only places left in the nicer parts of Central London where you can buy a house from floor to roof for under a few million quid and the grand townhomes were all divided up inside many years ago into an apartment (or two, three, four etc) on each level, sometimes to literally a hundred square feet or so living space per 'apartment'. The poor aren't living a single family per Victorian townhome anywhere in London and certainly not in the parts where Mews still exist.

Meanwhile the Wealthy still have their very nice houses in the trendy and very nice parts of London.
 
2013-05-22 01:56:11 PM  

Torchsong: Resident Muslim: In Suburbia....a,a,aa
In Suburbia...

Leeeeet's take a riiiiiideeee...


HeHehe
 
2013-05-22 02:36:37 PM  

impaler: America's suburbs, noted one British journalist, are becoming "ghost towns" as middle-class former suburbanites migrate to the central core. That's simply untrue: both the 2010 Census and other more recent analyses demonstrate that America is becoming steadily more suburban: 44 million Americans live in America's 51 major metropolitan areas, while nearly 122 million Americans live in their suburbs.

Stating that there are currently more people in the suburbs than the cities does nothing to disprove that suburbanites are migrating to the central core.

Are math and statistics really this hard?


At least part of the reason why they're moving is that cities are refusing (or just unable) to expand the roads, while also refusing to build good mass transit (See the discussion about getting from SF to the new 49ers stadium from the Super Bowl L thread in the sports tab.  45 minute car ride (1.5 hours in bad traffic) takes 2.5 hours or more by mass transit).  So you don't have a choice but to move close to your job or have a REALLY stabby commute.  This then leads to a loop where increased density causes worse traffic which causes increased density, etc, etc.

Of course, this is great for the city (since property values go through the roof), and terrible for all the other cities in the region and the movement of people and goods through the region.

/Housing Values are directly proportional to the suckiness of the traffic.
 
2013-05-22 02:42:16 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: lemortede: I don't think these people have ever left the US.
Not to sound like a dick, but most people in the USA have no idea what real poverty is.
Almost all those that are considered to be in poverty in the USA would be considered rich by many others around the world.

Please stop with the oversimplification of the poverty problem in America. There are children living in abandoned buses. People who live like nomads. People who genuinely do not know where their next meal will come from. You are hurting all of these people more when you continue to run with the narrative that American poor people are all simpletons who chose a new Xbox over groceries for the month.


img.tapatalk.com

media.tumblr.com

media.tumblr.com

Come on Drox, you can't argue with that.
 
2013-05-22 02:55:57 PM  
brantgoose: [Intriguing monologue]

I don't say this often. Do you have newsletter?
 
2013-05-22 03:21:48 PM  

ongbok: DROxINxTHExWIND: lemortede: I don't think these people have ever left the US.
Not to sound like a dick, but most people in the USA have no idea what real poverty is.
Almost all those that are considered to be in poverty in the USA would be considered rich by many others around the world.

Please stop with the oversimplification of the poverty problem in America. There are children living in abandoned buses. People who live like nomads. People who genuinely do not know where their next meal will come from. You are hurting all of these people more when you continue to run with the narrative that American poor people are all simpletons who chose a new Xbox over groceries for the month.

[img.tapatalk.com image 700x528]

[media.tumblr.com image 500x279]

[media.tumblr.com image 500x283]

Come on Drox, you can't argue with that.


I had a good response but the powerful visual aids showing us what a refridgerator, a microwave, and an air conditioning unit look like really drove home your point.
 
2013-05-22 03:34:16 PM  

DROxINxTHExWIND: ongbok: DROxINxTHExWIND: lemortede: I don't think these people have ever left the US.
Not to sound like a dick, but most people in the USA have no idea what real poverty is.
Almost all those that are considered to be in poverty in the USA would be considered rich by many others around the world.

Please stop with the oversimplification of the poverty problem in America. There are children living in abandoned buses. People who live like nomads. People who genuinely do not know where their next meal will come from. You are hurting all of these people more when you continue to run with the narrative that American poor people are all simpletons who chose a new Xbox over groceries for the month.

[img.tapatalk.com image 700x528]

[media.tumblr.com image 500x279]

[media.tumblr.com image 500x283]

Come on Drox, you can't argue with that.

I had a good response but the powerful visual aids showing us what a refridgerator, a microwave, and an air conditioning unit look like really drove home your point.


I think you missed the joke.
 
2013-05-22 03:39:45 PM  

ongbok: DROxINxTHExWIND: ongbok: DROxINxTHExWIND: lemortede: I don't think these people have ever left the US.
Not to sound like a dick, but most people in the USA have no idea what real poverty is.
Almost all those that are considered to be in poverty in the USA would be considered rich by many others around the world.

Please stop with the oversimplification of the poverty problem in America. There are children living in abandoned buses. People who live like nomads. People who genuinely do not know where their next meal will come from. You are hurting all of these people more when you continue to run with the narrative that American poor people are all simpletons who chose a new Xbox over groceries for the month.

[img.tapatalk.com image 700x528]

[media.tumblr.com image 500x279]

[media.tumblr.com image 500x283]

Come on Drox, you can't argue with that.

I had a good response but the powerful visual aids showing us what a refridgerator, a microwave, and an air conditioning unit look like really drove home your point.

I think you missed the joke.



Naw, I think you did.  ;-)


/sarcasm is undetectable on Fark
 
2013-05-22 04:34:24 PM  
wah
we don't have truly poor here
and there are a thousand ways to not be poor
no sympathy
 
Displayed 50 of 52 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
On Twitter





In Other Media


Report