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(NPR)   Did you cheat on tests? Congrats, you're not an idiot. Hell, you may have actually learned something too   (npr.org) divider line 45
    More: Cool, behavioral ecology, get it, educational game, social relations, best answer, psychological research, National Academy of Sciences  
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3566 clicks; posted to Geek » on 21 May 2013 at 8:17 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-21 08:12:48 AM  
www.startrek.com

Learned there is no such thing as a no-win scenario.
 
2013-05-21 08:28:32 AM  
Is the take-home message, then, that cheating is good? Well ... no.

Congrats, Subby, you ARE an idiot.
 
2013-05-21 08:38:01 AM  

Son of Thunder: Is the take-home message, then, that cheating is good? Well ... no.

Congrats, Subby, you ARE an idiot.


how? The headline didn't say anything about cheating being a good thing to do, just that you may have learned something from it.
 
2013-05-21 08:38:19 AM  
If you want to get rich, "cheating" is the best way to do it.
 
2013-05-21 08:41:26 AM  
In HS, I took an AP Biology course that was pretty tough- lots of material covered.

However, mysteriously, before every test, the test question and answers would always somehow be available. So pretty much the whole class would have this set of 100 things we'd all go crazy memorizing. To this day, I still remember a lot of it.

It took me a year or two after graduation to realize that that dumb old Biology teacher may not have been so dumb after all.  If he had told us what to study, we would have ignored him, but since it was somehow sneaky, we learned it.
 
2013-05-21 08:46:32 AM  
It sounds like your biology professor didn't want the school's funding cut on account of low GPAs.
 
2013-05-21 08:52:36 AM  

mr_a: In HS, I took an AP Biology course that was pretty tough- lots of material covered.

However, mysteriously, before every test, the test question and answers would always somehow be available. So pretty much the whole class would have this set of 100 things we'd all go crazy memorizing. To this day, I still remember a lot of it.

It took me a year or two after graduation to realize that that dumb old Biology teacher may not have been so dumb after all.  If he had told us what to study, we would have ignored him, but since it was somehow sneaky, we learned it.


My history teacher would just hand out copies of his grading copy from the same test from the previous year about a week before the test (his wife ran a printing shop, so he made lots of copies of things for us- including that entire book of DBQ primary source documents). He of course changed the questions year to year, but for a week, you'd see people with those tests, faces stuffed into their history books. My environmental science teacher made us answer every question in the back of the chapter. It wasn't difficult, you just flipped back and forth in the chapter for things like definitions, but it took a while, so people hated it, but you farking learned the material.

Teachers have their ways.
 
2013-05-21 09:24:53 AM  
"Cheating" doesn't help you learn the material, "preparing" does. Cheating, insofar as it's a method of preparation, helps you learn the material because you need to look at the material in order to know how to cheat.

I know a lot of teachers/professors who will allow you to bring notes into a test- either an index card or a standard sheet of paper. Same thing- the mere act of identifying what's important and transcribing that is enough to bring most people into the A - B range. In both cases, you actually have to look at the farking material for it to have any effect.
 
2013-05-21 09:28:15 AM  
Well...this is how everything is done in real-life outside of school...permissive "cheating".

People at work don't do it all by themselves...and for you purists out there, it is NOT the ideal.  (you're not proving anything but your ego)

People research off others...they brainstorm with others...they use ideas from others...and modify it.
and so on...
The key is results.

No person is an island, and the test is not what you know...but what you can accomplish.
And a good manager realizes this.

The bigger better mousetrap is figured out by awareness of knowledge, accumulation of the same...manipulation of it, application of it.
And for the most part, it is NOT done by yourself.

No person is an island, such is the strength of the internet.
Get over yourself and bring everyone into the fold...get over yourself and share your findings.

An idea not shared is nothing.
A treasure found but not spent is worthless.

All information is valuable.
 
2013-05-21 09:30:15 AM  

Fubini: I know a lot of teachers/professors who will allow you to bring notes into a test- either an index card or a standard sheet of paper. Same thing- the mere act of identifying what's important and transcribing that is enough to bring most people into the A - B range. In both cases, you actually have to look at the farking material for it to have any effect.


just finished my BS in Electrical Engineering this winter, many of my professors allowed to bring in a sheet of paper (3 for the final). The good professors gave the previous year's test for us to study, often, most of the material was different, except from the "you must absolutely know this" stuff. My roommates and I, as well as some other friends in the EE department, managed to get the tests for the past 2-3 years to work off of too. That cam in handy immensely. Oftentimes it's not the material that's tough to understand, it's the method to solve it that'll throw you and that's what these really helped with
 
2013-05-21 09:33:40 AM  
I feel like, if I were a college prof, my statement would be something like, 'get and A on my test or you fail. Do whatever you need to do aside from talking to other students during the test.'
 
2013-05-21 09:36:26 AM  
Might as well cheat for memorization-based learning. Most facts aren't important enough to keep in L1 brain cache now that there is internet.

For comprehension-based learning -- the important kind -- all cheating can do is exploit poor test design.
 
2013-05-21 09:43:59 AM  
My grades improved when I learned that text printed in 95% transparency is readible when sitting next to it but looks like a blank sheet from the vantage point of a teacher walking around the class.
 
2013-05-21 10:09:09 AM  
agrees

i.imgur.com
 
2013-05-21 10:10:08 AM  
The most important lesson i learned in high school was that the people who were winning were almost all cheating. That i worked hard to actually learn stuff and achieved an average grade meant shiat. People dont care about learning or teaching - they care about grades. Percents. The point isnt to teach kids math and science, its about teaching them to fall in line like a sheep or game the system like a wolf.

I learned that 'cheating' is really just 'not being a rube'.

I dont think thats a good thing. It rewards self indulgent psychopathic behavior and punishes the genuine people in the world. But whatever. We could think its a good thing but i know how many people complain that the assholes with no moral compass always rise to the top... Cant have your cake and eat it too...
 
2013-05-21 10:18:04 AM  
I cheated on my prostate exam.
 
2013-05-21 10:27:55 AM  

Fubini: "Cheating" doesn't help you learn the material, "preparing" does. Cheating, insofar as it's a method of preparation, helps you learn the material because you need to look at the material in order to know how to cheat.

I know a lot of teachers/professors who will allow you to bring notes into a test- either an index card or a standard sheet of paper. Same thing- the mere act of identifying what's important and transcribing that is enough to bring most people into the A - B range. In both cases, you actually have to look at the farking material for it to have any effect.


I'd argue that the best professors will allow that so that the act of creating notes helps you study, but having the notes during the test won't actually help you. For example, with my grad school accounting final the professor provide a copy of a previous year midterm and allowed us to bring 4 pages of notes to class. I spent a week putting every single detail I'd learned from the class onto my 4 pages, but the test was conceptual enough that I never referred them -- there was no question that required calculating some obscure ratio that there is no point to memorizing. And there's no point in asking a question on a test that can be quickly solved by referring to a formula because in the real world you're never going to memorize the formula, you're always going to look it up -- what's more important is that you understand how to intepret the results.
 
2013-05-21 10:36:02 AM  
Honestly the "hardest" tests I've taken were all open books/notes/Internet/phone a friend/etc.   They were just lots of questions with very little time per question to answer them.

So if you didn't know a majority of the base information there was no chance you could look up the more intricate detailed stuff, plus the base things you didn't know and have time to finish.

I also feel like I've retained more of the skills/information necessary for those tests vs. a "traditional" test.
 
2013-05-21 10:38:11 AM  

somedude210: Fubini: I know a lot of teachers/professors who will allow you to bring notes into a test- either an index card or a standard sheet of paper. Same thing- the mere act of identifying what's important and transcribing that is enough to bring most people into the A - B range. In both cases, you actually have to look at the farking material for it to have any effect.

just finished my BS in Electrical Engineering this winter, many of my professors allowed to bring in a sheet of paper (3 for the final). The good professors gave the previous year's test for us to study, often, most of the material was different, except from the "you must absolutely know this" stuff. My roommates and I, as well as some other friends in the EE department, managed to get the tests for the past 2-3 years to work off of too. That cam in handy immensely. Oftentimes it's not the material that's tough to understand, it's the method to solve it that'll throw you and that's what these really helped with


I provide my students with a "study guide" with about 75 questions on it for them to fill out. Every question from the test is from that study guide (sometimes I go Jeopardy on them and it's the answer, not the question of course). What I've found at the intro level of courses is that regardless of the study material found you essentially end up with a normal distribution. What the test/guide does is create a bump in the 95-100 range. Basically a handful of people do study properly and it makes a difference - but since it's only a 100 level course, most people don't study correctly and the cards fall where they might.
 
2013-05-21 10:49:31 AM  
Most of my history professors let you use your books and notes on on final exams. One of them explained that after a certain level the study of history stops being about memorizing dates and facts and more about the concepts and ideas that shape the course of history. You can always look up the date of an event, but understanding why the event happened is the important part.

And when you have three hours to answer one essay question no amount of notes are going to help you if you don't know it already.
 
2013-05-21 11:04:18 AM  

INeedAName: I feel like, if I were a college prof, my statement would be something like, 'get and A on my test or you fail. Do whatever you need to do aside from talking to other students during the test.'


My Applications Development prof was awesome like that.

"If you're in a corporate environment, and the boss asks you to code a prototype, he's not going to tell you that you're not allowed to look anything up. Therefore, all my tests and quizzes are open book, open note, and open Google."
 
2013-05-21 11:09:56 AM  

Eddie Adams from Torrance: I cheated on my prostate exam.


I didn't want the doctor poking around in my butthole, so I bought one of those fake buttholes from the internet, and then put it in my butthole so that the doctor would be probing the fake butthole instead of my real one.
 
2013-05-21 11:20:19 AM  
I have the biggest test of my life 1 week from today, if there was any possible way to be dishonest to get a better score, I would, but there's not, so I won't.

/should be studying
 
2013-05-21 12:00:51 PM  
farm6.staticflickr.com
 
2013-05-21 12:07:34 PM  
cdn0.turbobytes.coub.com
 
2013-05-21 12:40:50 PM  

rogue49: Well...this is how everything is done in real-life outside of school...permissive "cheating".

People at work don't do it all by themselves...and for you purists out there, it is NOT the ideal.  (you're not proving anything but your ego)

People research off others...they brainstorm with others...they use ideas from others...and modify it.
and so on...
The key is results.

No person is an island, and the test is not what you know...but what you can accomplish.
And a good manager realizes this.

The bigger better mousetrap is figured out by awareness of knowledge, accumulation of the same...manipulation of it, application of it.
And for the most part, it is NOT done by yourself.

No person is an island, such is the strength of the internet.
Get over yourself and bring everyone into the fold...get over yourself and share your findings.

An idea not shared is nothing.
A treasure found but not spent is worthless.

All information is valuable.


I agree but when you are looking for a job, there is no teamwork.  You don't get to bring your study group with you to answer the interview questions or tasks.  You are an island trying to convince the person hiring that you can accomplish things.  The same is true for the other side of the table, the person hiring wants to know what individual skills you will bring to the company.  If all your grades, accomplishments awards are the result of your study group and not individual efforts, then it is hard for them to judge your individual ability.

I personally hated group work in school.  It was your typical story, I wanted a good grade and everyone else wanted to fark off or didn't have the ability to even help (programming class is a good example: group project of creating a card game and my partner didn't know the difference between a float variable and an integer).  So if I wanted a good grade, I would have to do the bulk of the work.

Same happens in the working world (to a degree): task five people do proofread a document, 3-4 won't do it assuming the other 3-4 will.  Had this happen recently (thankfully I wasn't in the group). 5 people were tasked in proofreading a test for the college.  Come test day, someone found a mistake (note: not one of the five assigned to proofread).  One of the five actually said that she found that mistake a while ago but didn't say anything since she assumed someone else would find it and say something.

no perfect answer, just wanted to rant about group work/projects and the individuals who ruin it for everyone else.
 
2013-05-21 12:48:02 PM  
I don't think copying the multiple choice answers from the person sitting two rows down from me in Art History and Appreciation taught me a single thing.
 
2013-05-21 12:49:37 PM  
2.bp.blogspot.com

Approves
 
2013-05-21 12:59:11 PM  

somedude210: Oftentimes it's not the material that's tough to understand, it's the method to solve it that'll throw you and that's what these really helped with


There are two parts to a test: understanding the material and understanding the question.

I used to be a senior tech for a company that built embedded networking appliances.  I eventually left them to go work for one of their customers.  My new boss requested that I get all of my certifications for the product.  So I went to take the certification tests... and I failed.

I had actually taught classes on how to use the product, so I was both pissed and curious as to why I got so many answers wrong.  So I called the dude who wrote the test and went over everything.  All of the questions I missed had somewhat ambiguous wording.  Turns out that I had over-analyzed the questions, giving answers for more complex situations.

Knowledge in hand, when I went to take the tests a second time, I got perfect scores.
 
2013-05-21 01:07:06 PM  
i659.photobucket.com
 
2013-05-21 01:22:22 PM  
Cheated my ass off in Biology. The teacher made it too easy. I didn't need to cheat, but the quiz and test answers were offered every time.
 
2013-05-21 01:47:31 PM  
I cheated by committing the course material to memory and making a concerted effort to understand it. Weird, I know.
 
2013-05-21 02:33:07 PM  

Cythraul: [www.startrek.com image 320x240]

Learned there is no such thing as a no-win scenario.


He didn't cheat; he changed the conditions of the test.  That's actually a very viable solution that teaches a valuable lesson.  It's how our government works, for example.  "I will make it legal" is not just for villains.
 
2013-05-21 02:34:42 PM  

Trocadero: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 720x540]

Approves


I'm glad someone else recognized this situation too.
 
2013-05-21 04:23:13 PM  
The process of making a cheat sheet ensures that you've covered all the material.

I had a professor that loved handing out impossible tests, like dynamics tests with diagramed objects like a 3" coiled pipe spouting 100 GPM out a 2.5" nozzle. That was his idea of a take home final, and he'd hand it out on day one. He'd also do 500 point tests then grade on a curve since most people wouldn't get past 270. He encouraged any form of cheating you could carry since someday we might face an Professional Engineer exam that has the limit of what you can carry into the testing location, up to and including a suitcase stuffed with books.

/I blew past 400 on one test
//about 5 standard devations above the curve
///Not included in setting the curve as an outlier.
////PLASTICS!
 
2013-05-21 05:03:55 PM  
This is how NPR is going to soften the blow to liberal snowflakes that their messiah is human after all, and is lying about a whole bunch of things.

/obama cheats because he's smrt!
 
2013-05-21 06:03:42 PM  

wildcardjack: The process of making a cheat sheet ensures that you've covered all the material.

I had a professor that loved handing out impossible tests, like dynamics tests with diagramed objects like a 3" coiled pipe spouting 100 GPM out a 2.5" nozzle. That was his idea of a take home final, and he'd hand it out on day one. He'd also do 500 point tests then grade on a curve since most people wouldn't get past 270. He encouraged any form of cheating you could carry since someday we might face an Professional Engineer exam that has the limit of what you can carry into the testing location, up to and including a suitcase stuffed with books.

/I blew past 400 on one test
//about 5 standard devations above the curve
///Not included in setting the curve as an outlier.
////PLASTICS!


Funny, I ended up taking my PE exam with two books. The sample test and the NEC codebook. I passed, but damn some people brought a library.
 
2013-05-21 06:19:25 PM  
I taught molecular dynamics at university about 20 years ago, and I let my students bring in a 3x5 note card with whatever they wanted to write on it, front and back (similar to TFA).

Result: invariably, some blithering tard would bring in a 5x7 note card with stuff written on it. Then I would confiscate the card, give them a zero, and send them on their way.

The syllabus is there for a reason dumbshiat. If you can't follow simple directions, then you are going to get punished. The sooner you realize that, the better off you will be. I am doing you a favor. You are welcome.
 
2013-05-21 06:28:56 PM  
I made a little cheat sheet once (very very little), but then realized I didn't need it given I'd learned all the answers I needed while making the sheet.
 
2013-05-21 09:51:58 PM  

SevenizGud: I taught molecular dynamics at university about 20 years ago, and I let my students bring in a 3x5 note card with whatever they wanted to write on it, front and back (similar to TFA).

Result: invariably, some blithering tard would bring in a 5x7 note card with stuff written on it. Then I would confiscate the card, give them a zero, and send them on their way.

The syllabus is there for a reason dumbshiat. If you can't follow simple directions, then you are going to get punished. The sooner you realize that, the better off you will be. I am doing you a favor. You are welcome.


You are a dick.

The only lesson those people are learning is that you are a dick. I could understand taking their card before the test and makeing them take the test without a cheat sheet. Every university exam i ever took the prods and TA's checked the sheets when you entered the class to take the test. Its not like you had to let them use it.

You aren't teaching them anything other than some petty asshole will take every ounce of piss out of them the first chance he gets. You are a dick and thats all they are learning.
 
2013-05-21 11:12:21 PM  

Trocadero: [2.bp.blogspot.com image 720x540]

Approves


Came for this.
 
2013-05-21 11:16:43 PM  

SevenizGud: I taught molecular dynamics at university about 20 years ago, and I let my students bring in a 3x5 note card with whatever they wanted to write on it, front and back (similar to TFA).

Result: invariably, some blithering tard would bring in a 5x7 note card with stuff written on it. Then I would confiscate the card, give them a zero, and send them on their way.

The syllabus is there for a reason dumbshiat. If you can't follow simple directions, then you are going to get punished. The sooner you realize that, the better off you will be. I am doing you a favor. You are welcome.


When I took a statistics class back in the early 90s our professor had the same rule. You could bring all the notes and formulas you could fit on a 3x5 card. That is around the same time laser jet printers became available in the computer lab. I typed up all my notes and shrunk the font down, printed them up and glued them to a card. The professor picked the card up, chuckled something about needing to change the rules and handed the card back to me.

/got an A.
 
2013-05-22 12:08:55 AM  

Dinjiin: somedude210: Oftentimes it's not the material that's tough to understand, it's the method to solve it that'll throw you and that's what these really helped with

There are two parts to a test: understanding the material and understanding the question.

I used to be a senior tech for a company that built embedded networking appliances.  I eventually left them to go work for one of their customers.  My new boss requested that I get all of my certifications for the product.  So I went to take the certification tests... and I failed.

I had actually taught classes on how to use the product, so I was both pissed and curious as to why I got so many answers wrong.  So I called the dude who wrote the test and went over everything.  All of the questions I missed had somewhat ambiguous wording.  Turns out that I had over-analyzed the questions, giving answers for more complex situations.

Knowledge in hand, when I went to take the tests a second time, I got perfect scores.


Tech questions and certifications are worded for people with an 8th grade reading comprehension.

I know several engineers that have failed OSHA cert tests due to over analyzing.
 
2013-05-22 12:18:55 AM  

mikefinch: SevenizGud: I taught molecular dynamics at university about 20 years ago, and I let my students bring in a 3x5 note card with whatever they wanted to write on it, front and back (similar to TFA).

Result: invariably, some blithering tard would bring in a 5x7 note card with stuff written on it. Then I would confiscate the card, give them a zero, and send them on their way.

The syllabus is there for a reason dumbshiat. If you can't follow simple directions, then you are going to get punished. The sooner you realize that, the better off you will be. I am doing you a favor. You are welcome.

You are a dick.

The only lesson those people are learning is that you are a dick. I could understand taking their card before the test and makeing them take the test without a cheat sheet. Every university exam i ever took the prods and TA's checked the sheets when you entered the class to take the test. Its not like you had to let them use it.

You aren't teaching them anything other than some petty asshole will take every ounce of piss out of them the first chance he gets. You are a dick and thats all they are learning.


learning that there are dicks in the world is a valuable lesson in itself.
 
2013-05-22 05:45:45 AM  
I learned that helping the hot girl in class cheat on tests did not get me laid. That was an invaluable lesson.

/she eventually became a teacher
 
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