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(Talking Points Memo)   Apple is so hip, they've been making up Irish-American corporations that reside in both countries yet pay taxes in neither. That's like...whoa, man. My mind just got blown by your bodacious use of tax loopholes   (talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 380
    More: Asinine, Apple Inc., United States, u.s. income tax, share buyback, income taxes  
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7664 clicks; posted to Business » on 21 May 2013 at 10:05 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-21 04:39:50 PM
I set one obvious troll on mute and suddenly the thread is only 2/3s the size.  Nice.
 
2013-05-21 04:40:02 PM

JC22: caddisfly: I own a small business.  I pay federal, state, county and city taxes on my income, the company's income, and the company's property.  I take home about 60% of the income I produce; the rest goes to various taxes. I have been audited twice in the past eight years (with no wrongdoing ever found).  Yet the biggest companies in the nation pay nothing upon billions of dollars in income.

The best government money can buy indeed.

Apple pays taxes on anything sold in the USA to the USA.

That income was made overseas. Learn the difference. America is not 'entitled' to that $$$. Key word here..entitled.


You're not getting it. We're not talking about overseas sales, as in where someone walks into a retail store in London and buys an iPad. No one is claiming Apple should pay US tax on that transaction.

Apple is claiming that it is paying for "licensing of the brand", except those license payments are going to imaginary Irish companies. That allows it to bring its net profits down, and pay less tax. It's inventing a business expense. This is similar to "Son of Boss", if you understand how that works. Which was also perfectly legal until it was not. The money was technically "made" by the imaginary Irish company exactly in the way it is "made" in Son of Boss.

Apple will skate on this, largely because the majority of American are too stupid to understand exactly what it is Apple is doing to avoid the taxes.
 
2013-05-21 04:40:20 PM
Like it or not, nothing actually illegal happened.

Your legislators at work
 
2013-05-21 04:43:46 PM

Reverend Monkeypants: Like it or not, nothing actually illegal happened.

Your legislators at work


Exactly.  Blame Congress, not Apple.  It's Apple's job (and every individual) to pay as little taxes as possible without breaking any laws.  Congress writes the laws; if they have a problem with them, they can change them.
 
2013-05-21 04:45:40 PM

Pappy091: AngryJailhouseFistfark: CrazyCracka420: It's the politicians who allow these loopholes to exist in the first place that are to blame.

THIS!

You so crazy, cracka.


The Farkers claiming how easy it is to be wealthy and successful remind me of the Tony Robbins sort who sell you books and seminars on how to be successful, and when you get there it's all smoke and mirrors about attitude and positive thinking and hard work and striving and self-sacrifice, but the reality is they refuse to accept that there's an enormous amount of luck involved.

For example, the kid who inherited the house, all paid off. Luck (and he knows it). I'll wager that Pappy and Phinn were not born in the ghetto, raised by their grandmothers while dad was in jail & mom was on and off the crack/smack/booze/etc, trying to function in a run-down urban school overrun with gangs and noise and crime. Effort, sure, but there's a whole lotta right place, right time. It doesn't matter how hard you work if the opportunity isn't there. Likewise, housing prices, and for fark's sake, the commodification of higher education has driven those costs through the roof. Kids saddled with so much debt. Sure, bold, tough Grandfatherly talk:

Live within your means;
Save regularly;

And don't have children. And find that one place where the cost of living is far lower than what they're paying you and pray they don't find out they can pay you less and you'll stay on. Oh, and if you're from a shiatty, depressed area where there used to be jobs until the factory packed up and moved to China, be ready to say goodbye to your (loser) family and never see them again because you damn sure can't afford to take them with you to your new job and efficiency apartment in Bootstrapville. And while you're at it, go ahead an invest in your company's 401k, because that matching pays off. In however many years it takes you to vest. So be prepared to give their matching funds back or pass on that better opportunity that comes along bec ...


Reading comprehension is your friend.

It's not the advantages that some people are born with or even their wealth. Either you're an idiot (doubtful) or you're just being willfully obtuse. Here's the point, so pay attention:

Being born into better conditions than someone else does not mean you get to lecture them on hard work or responsibility. You had help, someone else did not. You are not a better person because you won the genetic lottery while someone else is born into poverty.

Your parental and economic circumstances do not make you a better person nor do they give you the moral right to wag your finger at someone less fortunate than yourself.

So, yeah, get bent.
 
2013-05-21 04:46:56 PM

Geotpf: Reverend Monkeypants: Like it or not, nothing actually illegal happened.

Your legislators at work

Exactly.  Blame Congress, not Apple.  It's Apple's job (and every individual) to pay as little taxes as possible without breaking any laws.  Congress writes the laws; if they have a problem with them, they can change them.


Wasn't it only recently that some state managed to making having sex with corpses illegal?  Doing up to the line of what is considered illegal is a morally bankrupt stance to take.  But you're right, corporations are people too, just psychopaths that's all.
 
2013-05-21 04:47:42 PM
The culture of greed in this country is pervasive and disgusting. Twain was right about the "temporarily-embarrassed millionaires".

The Worthington Principle is alive and well in America.
 
2013-05-21 04:48:26 PM

JC22: caddisfly: I own a small business.  I pay federal, state, county and city taxes on my income, the company's income, and the company's property.  I take home about 60% of the income I produce; the rest goes to various taxes. I have been audited twice in the past eight years (with no wrongdoing ever found).  Yet the biggest companies in the nation pay nothing upon billions of dollars in income.

The best government money can buy indeed.

Apple pays taxes on anything sold in the USA to the USA.

That income was made overseas*. Derp.


* From "creatively juggled accounting" based on US income/operations.


America is not '[buzzword]' to that $$$. Overused buzzword here...

Offend the US enough in the tax department, and it will have it regardless of legitimacy.
 
2013-05-21 04:49:31 PM

pxlboy: Apple's business practices suck. They sell overpriced shiny boxes.


Suck? No, citizen, they are geniuses! Second only to the Pet Rock in terms of getting people to pay far and away more for a thing than it is worth. Marketing geniuses, even down to the insular little community and jargon they create. THIS is business acumen of the highest caliber, a la P.T. Barnum.
 
2013-05-21 04:55:04 PM

pxlboy: Pappy091: AngryJailhouseFistfark: CrazyCracka420: It's the politicians who allow these loopholes to exist in the first place that are to blame.

THIS!

You so crazy, cracka.


The Farkers claiming how easy it is to be wealthy and successful remind me of the Tony Robbins sort who sell you books and seminars on how to be successful, and when you get there it's all smoke and mirrors about attitude and positive thinking and hard work and striving and self-sacrifice, but the reality is they refuse to accept that there's an enormous amount of luck involved.

For example, the kid who inherited the house, all paid off. Luck (and he knows it). I'll wager that Pappy and Phinn were not born in the ghetto, raised by their grandmothers while dad was in jail & mom was on and off the crack/smack/booze/etc, trying to function in a run-down urban school overrun with gangs and noise and crime. Effort, sure, but there's a whole lotta right place, right time. It doesn't matter how hard you work if the opportunity isn't there. Likewise, housing prices, and for fark's sake, the commodification of higher education has driven those costs through the roof. Kids saddled with so much debt. Sure, bold, tough Grandfatherly talk:

Live within your means;
Save regularly;

And don't have children. And find that one place where the cost of living is far lower than what they're paying you and pray they don't find out they can pay you less and you'll stay on. Oh, and if you're from a shiatty, depressed area where there used to be jobs until the factory packed up and moved to China, be ready to say goodbye to your (loser) family and never see them again because you damn sure can't afford to take them with you to your new job and efficiency apartment in Bootstrapville. And while you're at it, go ahead an invest in your company's 401k, because that matching pays off. In however many years it takes you to vest. So be prepared to give their matching funds back or pass on that better opportunity that comes ...


So you are assuming that people that are born into "better" circumstances just coast through life?

How is saying that someone needs to work hard a bad thing? How can they, or anyone, else succeed without working hard?

When did I say that who your parents are makes you a better person or gives you the moral right to do anything?

You are mistakenly thinking that I am talking "down" to people, which is absurd. How is telling someone that they need to work hard talking down? That's just common sense. And it applies to everyone, regardless of your background.
 
2013-05-21 04:55:26 PM

BumpInTheNight: Geotpf: Reverend Monkeypants: Like it or not, nothing actually illegal happened.

Your legislators at work

Exactly.  Blame Congress, not Apple.  It's Apple's job (and every individual) to pay as little taxes as possible without breaking any laws.  Congress writes the laws; if they have a problem with them, they can change them.

Wasn't it only recently that some state managed to making having sex with corpses illegal?  Doing up to the line of what is considered illegal is a morally bankrupt stance to take.  But you're right, corporations are people too, just psychopaths that's all.


Psychopathic and sociopathic behavior are prevalent in business. It's the "world needs assholes to get sh*t done" mentality that helps keep business going. But they need to kept in check, and they're not.

There were some economic counterbalances in place that still allowed the wealthy to be wealthy, but not at the expense of the rest of us.

And they are enabled by their pets in Congress who gave sold us down the river for a relative pittance and we get to foot the bill.
 
2013-05-21 05:02:53 PM

Pappy091: pxlboy: Pappy091: AngryJailhouseFistfark: CrazyCracka420: It's the politicians who allow these loopholes to exist in the first place that are to blame.

THIS!

You so crazy, cracka.


The Farkers claiming how easy it is to be wealthy and successful remind me of the Tony Robbins sort who sell you books and seminars on how to be successful, and when you get there it's all smoke and mirrors about attitude and positive thinking and hard work and striving and self-sacrifice, but the reality is they refuse to accept that there's an enormous amount of luck involved.

For example, the kid who inherited the house, all paid off. Luck (and he knows it). I'll wager that Pappy and Phinn were not born in the ghetto, raised by their grandmothers while dad was in jail & mom was on and off the crack/smack/booze/etc, trying to function in a run-down urban school overrun with gangs and noise and crime. Effort, sure, but there's a whole lotta right place, right time. It doesn't matter how hard you work if the opportunity isn't there. Likewise, housing prices, and for fark's sake, the commodification of higher education has driven those costs through the roof. Kids saddled with so much debt. Sure, bold, tough Grandfatherly talk:

Live within your means;
Save regularly;

And don't have children. And find that one place where the cost of living is far lower than what they're paying you and pray they don't find out they can pay you less and you'll stay on. Oh, and if you're from a shiatty, depressed area where there used to be jobs until the factory packed up and moved to China, be ready to say goodbye to your (loser) family and never see them again because you damn sure can't afford to take them with you to your new job and efficiency apartment in Bootstrapville. And while you're at it, go ahead an invest in your company's 401k, because that matching pays off. In however many years it takes you to vest. So be prepared to give their matching funds back or pass on that better opportunity th ...


Hard work is a generic term. No one disagrees with hard work.

The general thought is that without a certain level of familial, social, and possibly even financial support. The useless platitudes of, "Work hard, bootstraps, etc" are just that -- platitudes.

That support network, the upbringing, the education, and what not are going to play a huge role. People are, in many ways, a product of their environment. To say that someone who didn't have the same level of nurturing and support is on a level playing with someone who did not is ludicrous.

"Why don't they just get a job"
"Why don't they just go to school?"
"Maybe they shouldn't have had kids so young"

And so on. Privilege takes itself for granted and too seriously. It forgets that not everyone starts at the same place. It forgets where it comes from and has the audacity to chastise others for not having it.

So yeah, to just blurt out, "Work hard and I'm sure something will happen" is empty and worthless.
 
2013-05-21 05:10:40 PM

BumpInTheNight: Geotpf: Reverend Monkeypants: Like it or not, nothing actually illegal happened.

Your legislators at work

Exactly.  Blame Congress, not Apple.  It's Apple's job (and every individual) to pay as little taxes as possible without breaking any laws.  Congress writes the laws; if they have a problem with them, they can change them.

Wasn't it only recently that some state managed to making having sex with corpses illegal?  Doing up to the line of what is considered illegal is a morally bankrupt stance to take.  But you're right, corporations are people too, just psychopaths that's all.


Hey we know this story already: leave a bunch of loopholes around so your buddies can take advantage of them UNTIL somebody you don't like uses them then spread some mob rule around.  To bad there's no end.
 
2013-05-21 05:12:05 PM

Pappy091: Guess what? Some people will have advantages that you don't have. Life isn't fair, get over it.


But you were just saying how easy it was to retire as a multi-millionaire. Or did you leave off the asterisk with the terms and conditions?

My story, It's not so unusual, I'm sure you've heard it all before. I'm 48. I've worked full or part time since I was 13. I went to state universities in the 80's and early 90's before the tuition got out of control so no loans. I always had jobs at school that either paid me money, or housing, or food. I took time off of school to work. I had help from my family. I changed careers after graduate school because the path I'd chosen just wasn't going to pay enough to have a home and family. I was fortunate to have been living in a community with an excellent Junior College program where I could get the training and a large enough sector of the IT economy that I could get a paid internship right away. And again, right time, at the start of the IT boom in the late 90's. One cannot make that happen.

I was lucky to buy a house in a stable community right before the boom. I divorced after 14 years of marriage. Ex wife is a goddamn shrew. I spent a huge pile of money, including much of my retirement savings, in custody litigation. Bummer. Kids are a liability. It would have been cheaper just to never see them and pay more child support, I guess, so I didn't make such a good choice there. I've bought a second house, but following the recent banking fiasco it was overpriced. This market's strong though, and it will continue to appreciate so long as I'm there, but it'll be a while before the actual value catches up to what I paid for it. And I'll never pay it off and actually live in it. Not at my age.

Bank owns it, really, I'm just renting it from them. I make good money. Latest numbers out say I make more than the median income for my state, so I got that going for me, which is nice. My wife's second wife is disabled. Again, a liability. I should have dumped her when I had the chance. I guess I'm a romantic. Rich in love, right? Huh? Am I right? Yeah.

I don't begrudge the successful. I admire the hard-work and determination, especially if it can be done without shiatting all over friends and neglecting family. Or if one has the discipline and self awareness to say, "I want to be a Captain of Industry and will remain a childless bachelor until I am." Good on ye. It's the X-treme wealth. The more-money-than-God crowd who take their wealth and don't trickle it down through investments, at least not here in the US. Their wealth is trickling down all over Asia. Fat lot of good that does anyone here. They talk a great game about globalization, about freeing up capital and creating jobs, but unless you have the mobility to go where they're doing business, and can pick up everything to go (or leave it all behind to go), you're farked and left greeting customers at the Wal-Mart.
 
2013-05-21 05:16:24 PM

pxlboy: Pappy091: pxlboy: Pappy091: AngryJailhouseFistfark: CrazyCracka420:


"Why don't they just get a job"
"Why don't they just go to school?"
"Maybe they shouldn't have had kids so young"
And so on. Privilege takes itself for granted and too seriously. It forgets that not everyone starts at the same place. It forgets where it comes from and has the audacity to chastise others for not having it.
So yeah, to just blurt out, "Work hard and I'm sure something will happen" is empty and worthless.


what is a better idea or solution?

Let me attempt to clarify what I think the arguments are being made (if there are any at all) here.  Some people are born into situations that provide more support and thus allow offspring in that environment a better chance to succeed compared to other offspring born into less nurturing environments.

someone from the less nurturing environment seeks advice on how to better their lot in life.  Apparently, someone from the better support environment cannot just say "work hard and hope for a break" because it is merely a platitude.  What would be something more worthwhile to say or suggest?
 
2013-05-21 05:16:46 PM

Phinn: Rent-seeking is using something other than these market processes to make a profit. It refers to actions when there is something other than the win-win transaction in a voluntary trade, such as obtaining the use of governmental force to exclude competitors, fix prices, mandate production methods, or some other creative way to violate people's human rights. When that happens, the crony and the government wins, and everyone else loses.


I believe you have described perfectly the world in which we are currently living. In fact, this is the world that has existed for the past 8,000 years. That other scenario you described exists only in text books.
 
2013-05-21 05:19:55 PM
Good old liberal companies.
 
2013-05-21 05:21:45 PM

Hyjamon: pxlboy: Pappy091: pxlboy: Pappy091: AngryJailhouseFistfark: CrazyCracka420:

"Why don't they just get a job"
"Why don't they just go to school?"
"Maybe they shouldn't have had kids so young"
And so on. Privilege takes itself for granted and too seriously. It forgets that not everyone starts at the same place. It forgets where it comes from and has the audacity to chastise others for not having it.
So yeah, to just blurt out, "Work hard and I'm sure something will happen" is empty and worthless.

what is a better idea or solution?

Let me attempt to clarify what I think the arguments are being made (if there are any at all) here.  Some people are born into situations that provide more support and thus allow offspring in that environment a better chance to succeed compared to other offspring born into less nurturing environments.

someone from the less nurturing environment seeks advice on how to better their lot in life.  Apparently, someone from the better support environment cannot just say "work hard and hope for a break" because it is merely a platitude.  What would be something more worthwhile to say or suggest?


De-rigging the game a little.

Put education back within reach.

without that foundation what you have its just not as obtainable as it used to be
 
2013-05-21 05:22:27 PM

AngryJailhouseFistfark: Pappy091: Guess what? Some people will have advantages that you don't have. Life isn't fair, get over it.

But you were just saying how easy it was to retire as a multi-millionaire. Or did you leave off the asterisk with the terms and conditions?

My story, It's not so unusual, I'm sure you've heard it all before. I'm 48. I've worked full or part time since I was 13. I went to state universities in the 80's and early 90's before the tuition got out of control so no loans. I always had jobs at school that either paid me money, or housing, or food. I took time off of school to work. I had help from my family. I changed careers after graduate school because the path I'd chosen just wasn't going to pay enough to have a home and family. I was fortunate to have been living in a community with an excellent Junior College program where I could get the training and a large enough sector of the IT economy that I could get a paid internship right away. And again, right time, at the start of the IT boom in the late 90's. One cannot make that happen.

I was lucky to buy a house in a stable community right before the boom. I divorced after 14 years of marriage. Ex wife is a goddamn shrew. I spent a huge pile of money, including much of my retirement savings, in custody litigation. Bummer. Kids are a liability. It would have been cheaper just to never see them and pay more child support, I guess, so I didn't make such a good choice there. I've bought a second house, but following the recent banking fiasco it was overpriced. This market's strong though, and it will continue to appreciate so long as I'm there, but it'll be a while before the actual value catches up to what I paid for it. And I'll never pay it off and actually live in it. Not at my age.

Bank owns it, really, I'm just renting it from them. I make good money. Latest numbers out say I make more than the median income for my state, so I got that going for me, which is nice. My wife's second wife is disabled. Again, a li ...


Meh.  I don't have any sympathy for you. You had some luck that were wiped out by some bad life choices.
 
2013-05-21 05:23:02 PM
The occupy crowd cares not.
 
2013-05-21 05:24:48 PM

Hyjamon: e. What would be something more worthwhile to say or suggest?


Actually listening to the person who needs help and figuring out just what their situation is and offering advice based on that. Unless you happen to be someone a fair bit up the ladder at which point you may want to look into doing something. It used to be a not unheard of thing that someone who was successful would come across someone who wasn't and actually invest the time into helping them turn their life around. Some went pretty far with it, just because they could.
 
2013-05-21 05:26:41 PM

Shazam999: I don't have any sympathy for you. You had some luck that were wiped out by some bad life choices.


and thanks for being part of the problem.
 
2013-05-21 05:27:17 PM

AngryJailhouseFistfark: believe you have described perfectly the world in which we are currently living. In fact, this is the world that has existed for the past 8,000 years. That other scenario you described exists only in text books.


I wonder how different things would be if we had a more expansive view of history.
 
2013-05-21 05:30:49 PM

Phinn: The over-building of single-family houses is a prime example. That disaster occurred for the same reasons that economic decline in general occurs, in slightly different ways and on different scales every day -- artificial, government-sponsored manipulation of the money supply.

Money is half of every transaction in America (except for a tiny amount of barter). When you distort money, and fark with it, you fark with everything. Government decreed that money for single-family houses would be artificially easy to get. They did this to buy votes. But it made house-buying loan-money under-priced, which is another way of saying that it made single-family houses over-priced. This was experienced by the ordinary consumer as outrageous inflation in the single-housing market.

College prices are doing the same thing, for the same reasons. But this dis-coordination between production and consumption occurs daily, in a less-differentiated way, with all money and all goods, all the time, because of the Federal Reserve. All because of the manipulation of money and its concomitant manipulation of prices.


YES! Flooding these markets with capital, and the same with health care insurance, such that it is nearly impossible to participate in those markets (housing, education, healthcare), without paying a tribute to a bank or insurance company in the form of interest or subscriber premiums. Sickening. And thus we all become debt-slaves. I've had to pass up good contracting jobs because they didn't include health-care insurance or pay enough for me to buy it privately (married, two children). All because the insurance weasels have burrowed so far into our system and the Fed is too chickenshiat to create a real state healthcare system like the rest of the civilized world has.
 
2013-05-21 05:31:48 PM

Pappy091: hugram: Pappy091: Anyway, as another poster said, most of this discussion is directed to the wealthy which I am most certainly not.

Then why are you defending the very wealthy for paying less in taxes (from a percentage point of view) instead of defending people like you and I, who pay more from a percentage point of view?

I am saying that if any of the people that complain about this were to find themselves in the "1%", then they are going to use the exact same "loopholes" they are complaining about today. I don't have a problem eliminating most loopholes. I think that an overall simpler tax code is a very good thing. What I have a problem with is everyone hating rich people and big companies. You used to be looked up to for being successful in this country. Now it something to almost be ashamed of.


It isn't their wealth that they need to be ashamed of, it is their behavior. I sold my company and retired. I am pretty quiet about it but, yeah, "I got it like that." I give and give and share and help. I pay my full share of taxes and donate more than I can actually write off some years. My kid's kids are taken care of even so what else is my choice? I could hoard it. I could grow it. It's easy to do when you have it. I have, on paper, grown (oddly enough, I spend like a drunken sailor) for the past few years. (I went down pretty quick though when I first cashed out.) I couldn't spend it all in a lifetime of coke and hookers, so I share it and actually do good things as I see the need and capacity. I do it quietly, with little fanfare, and try to not get an ego.

That is the difference between me and the old money folk. It isn't their money, it is their behavior.
 
2013-05-21 05:36:33 PM
i90.photobucket.com

Is that rain?
 
2013-05-21 05:39:41 PM

WhyteRaven74: Shazam999: I don't have any sympathy for you. You had some luck that were wiped out by some bad life choices.

and thanks for being part of the problem.


Alright then.  How much tax does Apple have to pay before AngryJailhouseFistfark stops being a moron?
 
2013-05-21 05:42:20 PM

pxlboy: Reading comprehension is your friend.


And yours, chum. Or were your comments directed at the other guy, to whom I had responded?

Shazam999: Meh. I don't have any sympathy for you. You had some luck that were wiped out by some bad life choices.


And you, Shazam. I don't need your sympathy. I don't want your greasy sympathy. I don't need your smarmy, oily, stinkin' sympathy. Yeah, my choices are my own and I lives with 'em I does. Every stinkin' day I lives with 'em and I'm gonna keep right on livin' with 'em until I find the peaceful embrace of the grave. I'm gonna get drunk and make sweet love to those choices THIS VERY NIGHT, although it's a weeknight and I think I'm gettin' a cold, but still, I'm gonna cuddle right up to my choices. And I don't want your sympathy. It's a cold blanket anyway.

The point in telling my charming tale was to illustrate, if even in my own peculiar style and anecdote, that the achievement of success and accumulation of material wealth is not so simple as some in this thread are suggesting. It is not some simple plan one lays out and follows on schedule with predictable result. There are Enrons who will take your hard earned and well-saved money and leave you holding the sack. There are unforseen diseases and injuries that will wring out your bank account leaving you, again, with nothing.

As for me, I'm a wretched creature, and have always been so. I make no pretense otherwise.
 
2013-05-21 05:45:15 PM

AngryJailhouseFistfark: pxlboy: Reading comprehension is your friend.

And yours, chum. Or were your comments directed at the other guy, to whom I had responded?

Shazam999: Meh. I don't have any sympathy for you. You had some luck that were wiped out by some bad life choices.

And you, Shazam. I don't need your sympathy. I don't want your greasy sympathy. I don't need your smarmy, oily, stinkin' sympathy. Yeah, my choices are my own and I lives with 'em I does. Every stinkin' day I lives with 'em and I'm gonna keep right on livin' with 'em until I find the peaceful embrace of the grave. I'm gonna get drunk and make sweet love to those choices THIS VERY NIGHT, although it's a weeknight and I think I'm gettin' a cold, but still, I'm gonna cuddle right up to my choices. And I don't want your sympathy. It's a cold blanket anyway.

The point in telling my charming tale was to illustrate, if even in my own peculiar style and anecdote, that the achievement of success and accumulation of material wealth is not so simple as some in this thread are suggesting. It is not some simple plan one lays out and follows on schedule with predictable result. There are Enrons who will take your hard earned and well-saved money and leave you holding the sack. There are unforseen diseases and injuries that will wring out your bank account leaving you, again, with nothing.

As for me, I'm a wretched creature, and have always been so. I make no pretense otherwise.


Yep, it's not simple.  But some of the Farkers' sorta other insinuation is that if the gov't got mores moneys, then life situations like yourself's wouldn't exist.  Which we both know isn't true.
 
2013-05-21 05:50:17 PM

Pappy091: My local school district just spent over $50 million building a farking football stadium. Every single school except for one already had a perfectly good football stadium. I wish I could say that this was the exception, but money is wasted like this all the time in the name of "education".

 

Those football stadiums are paid for using voter approved bond issuances.   They're not "football stadiums' they're thinly veiled self congratulatory shrines to a community's affluence.    The type crass materialistic wealth for wealth's sake you've been supporting through out the thread.

In short, you are a collossal blowhard, an ignoramus  and there's not left to do but point and laugh at you.
 
2013-05-21 05:55:47 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: Pappy091: I MIGHT be able to see some reason in that argument if I thought that for one second our government was good stewards of our money.

Well since you've already stated:

Also, earlier governmental action is the root cause of every problem you describe.

and

Those that have been successful have done so in spite of governmental interference and harm.

It's pretty clear what you think of our government. I do not agree government is the cause of all of our problems (nor the solution to all of our problems). Government is simply the name we give to the things we choose to do together (B. Frank). If you don't have any confidence in the government the answer isn't to write it off completely. The government isn't going away. The answer is to make it better.


I love you.
 
2013-05-21 05:56:14 PM

pxlboy: The culture of greed in this country is pervasive and disgusting. Twain was right about the "temporarily-embarrassed millionaires".

The Worthington Principle is alive and well in America.



I'm guessing by "this country" you mean the United States.  This says you are dead wrong and the US people are the most giving on earth.  But it is Huffpo, so...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/19/world-giving-index-us-ran_n _1 159562.html

I'm always curious as to what drives people to have certain beliefs.  What makes you think America isn't giving?  I doesn't come out of nowhere.  Are you one of those who thinks the rich aren't paying their fair share and by extension the US isn't either?  Maybe you don't donate anything to anyone, and assume the rich aren't either - basic projection?   Maybe I'm misunderstanding my own link?
 
2013-05-21 05:57:49 PM

Pappy091: My local school district just spent over $50 million building a farking football stadium. Every single school except for one already had a perfectly good football stadium. I wish I could say that this was the exception, but money is wasted like this all the time in the name of "education".


Specifically, your football stadium was paid for using a voter approved municipal bond issuance.

The funding was not taking from your by "gun point".    It was funded by issuing municipal bonds via voter approval.

Your community voluntarily decided to borrow $50 million dollars of debt to pool together to  show off how rich and wealthy you were through a stupid football stadium, to rub it in poorer community's faces .
 
2013-05-21 06:00:54 PM
3.bp.blogspot.com

Ireland's economy is driven by a bustling finance sector, fueled by their unusually low corporate tax rate.  Most US technology companies, including IBM, Intel, and Microsoft, have offices there to take advantage of this.
 
2013-05-21 06:02:48 PM

InmanRoshi: Pappy091: My local school district just spent over $50 million building a farking football stadium. Every single school except for one already had a perfectly good football stadium. I wish I could say that this was the exception, but money is wasted like this all the time in the name of "education".

Specifically, your football stadium was paid for using a voter approved municipal bond issuance.

The funding was not taking from your by "gun point".    It was funded by issuing municipal bonds via voter approval.

Your community voluntarily decided to borrow $50 million dollars of debt to pool together to  show off how rich and wealthy you were through a stupid football stadium, to rub it in poorer community's faces .


Wow, assume much?  I don't live in a rich and wealthy community. In fact, most of the "rich and wealthy" in our community were vehemently against the football stadium among other things in the bond.

As I said in another post, I was using the football stadium as one example of a much larger problem. But go ahead and twist it around anyway you want.
 
2013-05-21 06:10:32 PM
You mean Apple isn't doing their duty to find out the way to pay the MOST tax they can? Unpossible.
 
2013-05-21 06:10:58 PM

Pappy091: InmanRoshi: Pappy091: My local school district just spent over $50 million building a farking football stadium. Every single school except for one already had a perfectly good football stadium. I wish I could say that this was the exception, but money is wasted like this all the time in the name of "education".

Specifically, your football stadium was paid for using a voter approved municipal bond issuance.

The funding was not taking from your by "gun point".    It was funded by issuing municipal bonds via voter approval.

Your community voluntarily decided to borrow $50 million dollars of debt to pool together to  show off how rich and wealthy you were through a stupid football stadium, to rub it in poorer community's faces .

Wow, assume much?  I don't live in a rich and wealthy community. In fact, most of the "rich and wealthy" in our community were vehemently against the football stadium among other things in the bond.

As I said in another post, I was using the football stadium as one example of a much larger problem. But go ahead and twist it around anyway you want.



A larger problem of rich communities voluntarily wanting to flagrantly show off their wealth?    Because that's the only thing applicable here.  You can claim you don't live in a rich and wealthy community, but evidently you live in a community where the voters feel they can afford to pay for a $50 million dollar high school football stadium.

Faceless bureaucrats and Da Gubmint did not force that stadium down your throat, the voters in your community voluntarily decided that's where they wanted to collectively put their money.
 
2013-05-21 06:13:30 PM

SevenizGud: You mean Apple isn't doing their duty to find out the way to pay the MOST tax they can? Unpossible.


Are you dense? There's a bit of a difference from me claiming my kid as a dependent, versus sending imaginary child support payments to a fictitious child in Elbonia. "Because the system made me do it" is an excuse only retards will accept. Apparently there are enough retards for Apple to get away with it.
 
xcv
2013-05-21 06:13:35 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: As global capital becomes ever more powerful, giant corporations are holding governments and citizens up for ransom - eliciting subsidies and tax breaks from countries concerned about their nation's "competitiveness" - while sheltering their profits in the lowest-tax jurisdictions they can find. Major advanced countries - and their citizens - need a comprehensive tax agreement that won't allow global corporations to get away with this.

Google, Amazon, Starbucks, every other major corporation, and every big Wall Street bank, are sheltering as much of their U.S. profits abroad as they can, while telling Washington that lower corporate taxes are necessary in order to keep the U.S. "competitive."

Baloney. The fact is, global corporations have no allegiance to any country; their only objective is to make as much money as possible - and play off one country against another to keep their taxes down and subsidies up, thereby shifting more of the tax burden to ordinary people whose wages are already shrinking because companies are playing workers off against each other.

Link


No different than how American states conspire against each other all the time to attract businesses via low tax deals, see Delaware, Nebraska etc.
 
2013-05-21 06:14:53 PM

WhyteRaven74: Shazam999: I don't have any sympathy for you. You had some luck that were wiped out by some bad life choices.

and thanks for being part of the problem.


How is that being part of the problem? Subsidizing or banning "bad choices" would be much worse than the current system. People should be free to make stupid decisions, and the only people who should have to deal with the consequences of those stupid decisions are the people who actually made them. That is how liberty works.
 
2013-05-21 06:19:29 PM

Pappy091: InmanRoshi: Pappy091: My local school district just spent over $50 million building a farking football stadium. Every single school except for one already had a perfectly good football stadium. I wish I could say that this was the exception, but money is wasted like this all the time in the name of "education".

Specifically, your football stadium was paid for using a voter approved municipal bond issuance.

The funding was not taking from your by "gun point".    It was funded by issuing municipal bonds via voter approval.

Your community voluntarily decided to borrow $50 million dollars of debt to pool together to  show off how rich and wealthy you were through a stupid football stadium, to rub it in poorer community's faces .

Wow, assume much?  I don't live in a rich and wealthy community. In fact, most of the "rich and wealthy" in our community were vehemently against the football stadium among other things in the bond.

As I said in another post, I was using the football stadium as one example of a much larger problem. But go ahead and twist it around anyway you want.


The question is how do we fix the education perception in order to fund it properly (both in amount and what the amount is spent on).  I agree there is unwise spending but to do it right there will need to be an increase in spending as well.  more schools, more classrooms in order to reduce class sizes which would also require more teachers.  and on the topic of teachers, recruiting, retaining:

I think we know the current climate will make it impossible to raise teachers salaries to any semblance of a worthy amount that respects the level of education/certification required and to attract other vibrant people to the profession.  Right now people are happy with school serving as a babysitter and thus feel we pay the babysitters too much as is.

schools are having to choose between which programs to keep and which to cut: art vs. the football team; music vs. having a band play at football games; adequate labs vs. baseball fields; social science vs. math.

Also, everyone is fixated in education on the "quick fix" and the gadget or gimmick that will accomplish that goal.  We just need quality teachers, adequate classrooms and smaller class sizes (I would argue for tracking: smart kids in the same class, "less-than-smart" kids in the same class or even vo-tec)  Note adequate classrooms does not equal laptop for every kid, smart boards, projectors (all of which require the school to hire IT folk = bloated admin) but just chalkboards with chalk, pencils, paper.

I don't want to just flatly say "throw more money at the problem" but we do need to spend more on education and in a wiser fashion...but we won't.
 
2013-05-21 07:03:42 PM

Big_Fat_Liar: What makes you think America isn't giving?


Tens of thousands of people out on the streets with no place to sleep. That comes to mind as one thing that could cause someone to think that. Then there's the hundreds of thousands living in slums.
 
2013-05-21 07:14:38 PM

sethstorm: Sofakinbd: Here are a few salient points:
 1) Apple pays taxes on all profits is makes in each country in which it makes those profits.  German profits are paid to Germany; Japan profits are paid to Japan; US profits are paid to the US; etc.

False.  It is avoiding it for every one of those countries.


[citation needed]

Rent Party: [3.bp.blogspot.com image 200x150]

Ireland's economy is driven by a bustling finance sector, fueled by their unusually low corporate tax rate.  Most US technology companies, including IBM, Intel, and Microsoft, have offices there to take advantage of this.


This.  And this has been the case for over 30 years, yes?
 
2013-05-21 07:27:02 PM

Pocket Ninja: I'm sure this only relates to their ongoing concern about work conditions in their Chinese factories. They're still working so hard to correct the rampant abuses that their in-depth investigations uncovered in places like FoxConn, and what they're probably thinking is that when it's time to start spending some money on improving those factories and giving the employees something closer to a living wage that moves them beyond what are essentially slave conditions, it'll be good to have the money closer by. See, if the money was all the way in America, it would be harder to get it there than if it was already in a foreign country overseas. They should be lauded for their concerned efficiency.


Thank you.  Your posts are always an instant classic.  By the way, are you an attorney?
 
2013-05-21 07:49:51 PM

mongbiohazard: Pappy091: This is still America, where you are responsible for your life. Everyone has the opportunity to be successful, however they define success. Redistribution of wealth is not the way to raise the lower/middle class. Better education with an emphasis on financial smarts is a good start though.


We already HAVE wealth redistribution, and have had it since the late 70's...

For the average American wages have risen around 24% since 1979.... but at the same time cost of living has risen over 60%. That means the average American is poorer then their parents and grandparents were. The proportion of those living below the poverty line has also risen.

Meanwhile the very wealthy have increased their wealth during that same time period by over 280%. The wealth IS being redistributed upwards - and sharply. Corporate profits have also risen sharply during this period while worker productivity rises as well. No one in the middle and bottom is seeing any of those gains. They are entirely being consumed by the already wealthy - AND MORE.

This is not a recipe for long-term national success. Demand is important to any economic system, and we have almost entirely neglected demand in favor of "supply side" type economics for decades now. That was dumb. WIthout anyone who can afford products, who are they going to be sold to? This is why our economic recovery has been so anemic. That will only continue to worsen as these trends continue, and the end result will eventually be a society of permenant, fixed classes/castes - with the lower castes in a form of indentured servitude.


I graduated college in 2001. I started out in my first job making 28K. I now make over 80K. That's about a 285% increase. I'm beating the average, but I'm nowhere near rich.

Luckily, I have enough to invest a little bit every month, so I'm taking advantage of the economy to grow my net worth over time. Hopefully by the time I'm 60 I'll be able to retire and not worry about money, but that's still a long shot in my mind.

I don't have any kids, so I'm not worried about safe withdrawal rates, leaving money behind for future generations, or anything like that. I've got enough life insurance to pay off the house and leave the wife a nice chunk of change, so as soon as I have enough stashed to live 20 - 30 years on a meager income, I'll consider that my F YOU money and either cut back to part time or retire completely and spend my days drinking beer and playing video games.
 
2013-05-21 07:53:38 PM

dbirchall: sethstorm: Sofakinbd: Here are a few salient points:
 1) Apple pays taxes on all profits is makes in each country in which it makes those profits.  German profits are paid to Germany; Japan profits are paid to Japan; US profits are paid to the US; etc.

False.  It is avoiding it for every one of those countries.

[citation needed]

Rent Party: [3.bp.blogspot.com image 200x150]

Ireland's economy is driven by a bustling finance sector, fueled by their unusually low corporate tax rate.  Most US technology companies, including IBM, Intel, and Microsoft, have offices there to take advantage of this.

This.  And this has been the case for over 30 years, yes?


Don't know the date exactly, but figure mid 90's, when the "Celtic Tiger" started.   The EU is kind of pissed at them over it still, and want them to up it to whatever their standard is.
 
2013-05-21 08:20:46 PM
Wealth increases agency, agency increases opportunity. Opportunity is a finite resource. So another person's wealth is a direct threat to the lives of you and yours.

I am almost to the point where I seriously think there should be no inheritance, we all given an equal stipend at the age of 16 and offered the same opportunities based on our natural abilities. Working for relatives is outlawed. Nepotism is punishable by death for both involved parties. The only provisions you may make in case of your death are for charitable foundations/donations. Lobbying government to support your fiscal interests is punishable by being stripped of all worldly goods and cast into the streets as a pauper. Every time you attempt to use frivolous litigation to prevent meaningful competition, everyone on the legal team and the CEO/board of directors for the entity in question loses a limb. Once you're out of limbs you lose your head.

If you are greedy, you should become acquainted with the end of a spear.
 
2013-05-21 08:30:50 PM

Source4leko: Phinn: Source4leko: Dusk-You-n-Me: Source4leko: How it is "Shockingly easy" to become one of the haves?

You have to deserve it. See, poor people are poor because they deserve it. Rich people are rich because they deserve it. If you aren't rich, it's because you didn't deserve. If you did, you'd be rich. QED

No, I really want someone to explain this so me.  I am tired of just getting farked, and I know things are never going to change, so I figure why not become the person doing the farking.  I want to know how I do that, no shiat.

1. Earn more than you spend.

2. Invest the difference in cash-generating ways, either through conventional financial instruments (IRAs, funds, etc.), or use it to start or expand a profitable enterprise. Which will help you earn more ...

3. Repeat.

How do you identify a profitable business to start and grow? Learn to give the people what they want. Start by asking yourself that question 90 times a day -- what can I do to deliver something to people that they want?

Give, give, give. Focus on yourself and your production of desired goods and services. Focus on other people's unmet (or undermet) wants.

Learning how to get paid in the process is always much easier than figuring out what people really want but don't have.

Once you've done this a few times, and built profitable businesses that please lots and lots of satisfied customers, you'll soon encounter all the myriad ways that government will get in your way, take from you, and favor its cronies.

Have fun!

Oh look, another answer that could be on CNN.com of 'how to save for retirement'.  There was a ton of new information there.  I think you forgot 'buy low, sell high!'   Also, thanks for the chip about how the government will take from me, that makes me realize you aren't an ideologue at all, and that your information is not ideologically motivated in any way.


Read this guy's blog: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/22/getting-rich-from-zero-to-h e ro-in-one-blog-post/

Basically boils down to:
- don't eat out
- ride a bike or walk instead of driving
- buy cheap groceries
- invest in vanguard index funds
- don't pay car payments
- don't buy a house you can't afford
- invest your earnings in other investments to create a snowball effect

I just recently started following this dude, but in the last two months I have made some drastic changes by following his advice which makes my future look much brighter. It's not easy, but it's necessary.
 
2013-05-21 08:36:38 PM

InmanRoshi: Pappy091: My local school district just spent over $50 million building a farking football stadium. Every single school except for one already had a perfectly good football stadium. I wish I could say that this was the exception, but money is wasted like this all the time in the name of "education".

Specifically, your football stadium was paid for using a voter approved municipal bond issuance.

The funding was not taking from your by "gun point".    It was funded by issuing municipal bonds via voter approval.

Your community voluntarily decided to borrow $50 million dollars of debt to pool together to  show off how rich and wealthy you were through a stupid football stadium, to rub it in poorer community's faces .


What is the source of money to repay these bonds? Taxes.

The people who wanted the stadium are forcing everyone else to pay for it.

The fiction of voting doesn't change the fact that people are paying for that stadium at the point of a gun.

The people who support banning guns always seem to be the same people who get a hard-on for using guns to force others to pay for their preferred crap. They don't hate guns, as long as they're the State's guns.
 
2013-05-21 08:48:43 PM

dchurch0: I just recently started following this dude, but in the last two months I have made some drastic changes by following his advice which makes my future look much brighter. It's not easy, but it's necessary.


I really hate that kind of drek. It's like listening to Dave Ramsey. The people whose problems can be solved by these solutions don't really have problems, they're just bad with the money they already have.
It does jack shiat for the people who don't have money and the "work harder" platitudes are getting tiresome as the evidence piles up that it is unlikely to improve your lot. It's especially galling to hear repeatedly that the solution to financial woes is to invest, invest, INVEST all this money we supposedly have that's just lying around.

From Mr. Mustache: if you can save 50% of your take-home pay starting at age 20, you'll be wealthy enough to retire by age 37. If you already have some assets now, you're even closer than that. If you can save 75%, If you can save 75%, you working career is only 7 years.
So remember my freaky magician story up in the first paragraph? There was not really any magic - I just saved about 66% of my pay without really noticing it


I didn't realize I was going to be reading a fantasy blog.
 
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