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(News9 Oklahoma)   Oklahoma tornado thread #3. LGT live updates/streaming   (news9.com) divider line 565
    More: Followup, Oklahoma, Norton LiveUpdate  
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2641 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 May 2013 at 12:35 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-21 06:31:32 PM  

Great Porn Dragon: TanSau: You guys really are newbs

Actually, dear, I think you might be the new and naive one here:

[subsequent schooling]


I have you Farkied as "Gravy Buffet" (must've been a coaster thread). I may have to change this.
 
2013-05-21 06:35:06 PM  

Great Porn Dragon: When an EF5 tornado gets REALLY bad (say, Moore, Oklahoma circa 20 May 2013 or Jarrell, Texas circa 27 May 1997)...not even reinforced concrete tends to survive, not even metal survives, NOTHING GODDAMN FARKING SURVIVES ABOVE GROUND.


OK, so don't try, and just accept that nothing and nobody will survive there. However, it's not EF5 or nothing is it, in a single event or over time? It's called ALARP here - As Low As Reasonably Practical - and I imagine it will lie somewhere between "trailer park" and "that place where George Bush hid on 9/11".
 
2013-05-21 07:18:43 PM  

RatOmeter: Gleeman: Just using screws instead of nails for construction helps a stick built home survive a tornado, though not one as intense as this one, of course.

This!

The McMansion that I live in (yeah, yeah.  I got the land and lake I wanted, my wife got the obscene house she wanted.  Fark you) is the bloatiest, slip-shoddiest, slipping-nail ridden piece of construction that a guy could have the misfortune to blow 300k on.  The people who sold it to us had to hire someone to shore up the warpy 2x4 roof supports after our house inspector (buyers: PLEASE help yourself by hiring an inspector) pointed out the sags in the roof and why they were happening.  I've gone up in the attic to re-attach separating joints with screws since then, but I suspect even straight-line winds much over 60 MPH will do serious damage to this monstrosity.


You ~do~ realize that the shear strength of a screw is like 1/3 of a nail, right? You've just made your problem worse in the event of a tornado, or normal aging for that matter.

//Correctly sized/used nails won't walk as much, and will be of proper shear strength.
 
2013-05-21 07:30:13 PM  

Great Porn Dragon: Aaaaand since Fark didn't like my second pic, here's another pic of four of the five recognised Tornado Alleys:

[edn-systems.com image 450x450]

Again...unless you live in California (where you get to worry about wildfires and earthquakes and possibly even supervolcano eruptions--hi, Lake Mammoth!) good luck living anywhere that ISN'T in a Tornado Alley if you actually, you know, like to make food happen and not have the US relying on donations from UNICEF.


I wonder how many of those Carolina Alley tornadoes are spawned-off of hurricanes.
 
2013-05-21 07:44:39 PM  
My cousin lost everything- his  house and his dog, Him and his wife are safe.
 
2013-05-21 08:17:12 PM  
And if it wasn't bad enough the loonies at WBC are supposedly going to picket the funerals of the children
 
2013-05-21 08:20:13 PM  

italie: RatOmeter: Gleeman: Just using screws instead of nails for construction helps a stick built home survive a tornado, though not one as intense as this one, of course.

This!

The McMansion that I live in ...

You ~do~ realize that the shear strength of a screw is like 1/3 of a nail, right? You've just made your problem worse in the event of a tornado, or normal aging for that matter.

//Correctly sized/used nails won't walk as much, and will be of proper shear strength.


You're probably right, but this house is/will be a lost cause, over time, if I can't figure out the right ways and places to secure it.  Joints all over the house (that I can see in the attic) are pulling apart.  I *hope* that by adding screwing to pull it together and not removing the existing nails where I can will do some good.  The screws won't slip out like the nails and I guess I was counting on their strength in tension.  You remind me that may not be enough.

/suspects a lot more *engineered* structural support may be necessary
 
2013-05-21 09:36:43 PM  

RatOmeter: Gleeman: Just using screws instead of nails for construction helps a stick built home survive a tornado, though not one as intense as this one, of course.

This!

The McMansion that I live in (yeah, yeah.  I got the land and lake I wanted, my wife got the obscene house she wanted.  Fark you) is the bloatiest, slip-shoddiest, slipping-nail ridden piece of construction that a guy could have the misfortune to blow 300k on.  The people who sold it to us had to hire someone to shore up the warpy 2x4 roof supports after our house inspector (buyers: PLEASE help yourself by hiring an inspector) pointed out the sags in the roof and why they were happening.  I've gone up in the attic to re-attach separating joints with screws since then, but I suspect even straight-line winds much over 60 MPH will do serious damage to this monstrosity.


yeah, most residential construction in the last 30 years hasn't been built to last, the big reason old homes are still standing is because the lumber was much rougher/thicker/heavier so in a way they overkilled it back then, but now residential is a well-oiled machine built from the ground up to be as profitable as possible and part of that is the pre-assembled walls and truss systems - even just 30 years ago homes were built a little beefier because they still had to assemble and cut everything on site, now a home is built like a commercial business only with a lot less care for structural strength
 
2013-05-21 09:37:47 PM  

jimmyjackfunk: And if it wasn't bad enough the loonies at WBC are supposedly going to picket the funerals of the children


Let em, i remember when they were in McAlester a few summers ago and they got their tires all flattened and all of the businesses refused to fix them until the police begged walmart to do it so they could get them out of town.

/they'll fark with the wrong folks some time, and they'll take out the whole bunch
 
2013-05-21 10:13:46 PM  

RatOmeter: italie: RatOmeter: Gleeman: Just using screws instead of nails for construction helps a stick built home survive a tornado, though not one as intense as this one, of course.

This!

The McMansion that I live in ...

You ~do~ realize that the shear strength of a screw is like 1/3 of a nail, right? You've just made your problem worse in the event of a tornado, or normal aging for that matter.

//Correctly sized/used nails won't walk as much, and will be of proper shear strength.

You're probably right, but this house is/will be a lost cause, over time, if I can't figure out the right ways and places to secure it.  Joints all over the house (that I can see in the attic) are pulling apart.  I *hope* that by adding screwing to pull it together and not removing the existing nails where I can will do some good.  The screws won't slip out like the nails and I guess I was counting on their strength in tension.  You remind me that may not be enough.

/suspects a lot more *engineered* structural support may be necessary


If engineered attic solutions are what you are after, and you want that shait to last, get familiar with the terms "Collar tie", "Purlin", and "Ring shank nail". I personally guarantee that nothing up there moves anymore if you apply those terms properly.
 
2013-05-21 10:20:08 PM  

orbister: and I imagine it will lie somewhere between "trailer park" and "that place where George Bush hid on 9/11".


seriously, not the time
 
2013-05-21 11:14:04 PM  

vygramul: Great Porn Dragon: Aaaaand since Fark didn't like my second pic, here's another pic of four of the five recognised Tornado Alleys:

[edn-systems.com image 450x450]

Again...unless you live in California (where you get to worry about wildfires and earthquakes and possibly even supervolcano eruptions--hi, Lake Mammoth!) good luck living anywhere that ISN'T in a Tornado Alley if you actually, you know, like to make food happen and not have the US relying on donations from UNICEF.

I wonder how many of those Carolina Alley tornadoes are spawned-off of hurricanes.


A fair amount are from hurricane-related tornadogenesis, and a fair amount are also from storms that blow in from on top of the Appalachians (a similar phenomenon with the Rockies is why Colorado has a rather surprising amount of tornadogenesis in the parts of it that are flat).  Between the two, it's the reason Carolina Alley exists (much as the same reason why the Tornado Alley of Florida--which I will dub "Alligator Alley" just for shiats and giggles and pun potential--has a lot of tornadogenesis...a good bit from hurricanes, a good bit from stuff blowing in from Dixie Alley or the Gulf of Mexico).

Interestingly, a lot of the reason we DEFINE five different "Tornado Alleys" is that there do tend to be some distinct patterns as to how storms form in them.  Traditional Tornado Alley tends to get a lot of classic supercells, Hoosier Alley gets an interesting mix of supercells and gust-front storms that tend to spawn a lot of derechos as well as tornadoes, Dixie Alley tends to get a LOT of gust-front storms and very long lived supercells, and a good chunk of the activity in the Carolina and "Alligator"/Florida Alleys is partly due to hurricane-spawned tornadoes and partly due to ocean-brewed storms in general.  We're realising that there are some distinctly different flavours of tornadogenesis depending in which "Alley" you're in, which also has some real implications for severity (among other things, it gives a clue as to why in Hoosier Alley and Dixie Alley there are actually a higher percentage of EF-4 and EF-5 tornadoes per tornadoes spawned and why the Hoosier and Dixie Alleys tend to spawn mega-outbreaks of 100+ tornadoes over a system lifetime).
 
2013-05-22 12:04:45 AM  
In parts of Oklahoma that are the clay covered rock, if you dig down and cut into the rock or even attach something to it, you have to clear the clay away or else the next time it moves, it will shear your structure off the rock or snap it cleanly.  A cubic yard of water weights about a ton, a cubic meter of clay weighs 2 to 3 times that.  Small earthquakes (like the little 2.3 that hit OKC the several times in the last month and the same day) can cause 5000 psi concrete to sheer if it is not isolated enough from the clay.  The clay may not look like it moves much but it does act like a fluid even when it is dry.

A bit of 2x4 in flight at speeds of say around 200 mph can deliver its kinetic energy at about 2000 psi before it starts to disintegrate. Most concrete is often specced at 1500 psi which will trun int airborne rock if a 2x4 hits it longwise.

Schools in the area used to have halls that were double cinder block with reinforcement.  There seems to be some indications that cinder block that is protected by a nylon mesh can work well with impact from weather related projectiles as reduces the number of broken off pieces that also start to fly.  It is a cheaper form of the Kevlar / concrete armoured structures used by militaries around the world.
 
2013-05-22 12:28:09 AM  

ummhima2:

www.news9.com/livefeed


I haven't listened to the live feed, nor have I seen any of the scenes that might have been taking place, so I haven't the foggiest idea about the validity of what you speak of.


I was talking about the validity of some other user's conflation of 7 drowned kids in a school basement with sump pumps failing when the power goes out.  We've figured out the problem with the power and the sump pump, ages ago.  Sump pumps do not keep walls from falling on people, nor are they industrial pumps to handle a deluge.  They're not my utopian building standard. I'm just as happy with an external or sub garage shelter.  All I was saying was that sump pumps, regardless of power loss may have had nothing to do with how those 7 children died.  I can't say, and I don't think anyone can pass judgement on that yet, nor do I think it's materially related to residential basements, high water tables and sump pumps.

There may be better reasons to avoid having a basement for a particular area.  I know that when we lived in Lubbock TX it had something to do with the type of soil and how it expanded when we did get water.  So for hundreds of homes that were built in the neighborhood for TI's big expansion there was no shelter. The new school the built was isolated in a field, and most of the classes were in trailers.

When we had drills you were stuffing more kids then the school could even hold in hallways. When the tornados did come through, we were supposed to run to the closest man made ditch/pond and hunker down, also running toward where the tornado touched down. Luckily only cotton was impacted.

I'm all for better solutions, we all have to deal with the regional disasters, there are no single solutions, and I'm not one that has been arguing one way or the other, but some solutions do exist for certain problems and saying they won't solve all problems doesn't seem to further the conversation, any more than conflating something whose relation to the discussion is tangential or spurious.

 
2013-05-22 09:08:35 AM  

DON.MAC: In parts of Oklahoma that are the clay covered rock, if you dig down and cut into the rock or even attach something to it, you have to clear the clay away or else the next time it moves, it will shear your structure off the rock or snap it cleanly.  A cubic yard of water weights about a ton, a cubic meter of clay weighs 2 to 3 times that.  Small earthquakes (like the little 2.3 that hit OKC the several times in the last month and the same day) can cause 5000 psi concrete to sheer if it is not isolated enough from the clay.  The clay may not look like it moves much but it does act like a fluid even when it is dry.

A bit of 2x4 in flight at speeds of say around 200 mph can deliver its kinetic energy at about 2000 psi before it starts to disintegrate. Most concrete is often specced at 1500 psi which will trun int airborne rock if a 2x4 hits it longwise.

Schools in the area used to have halls that were double cinder block with reinforcement.  There seems to be some indications that cinder block that is protected by a nylon mesh can work well with impact from weather related projectiles as reduces the number of broken off pieces that also start to fly.  It is a cheaper form of the Kevlar / concrete armoured structures used by militaries around the world.


Thanks for the explanation.  I was having a hard time understanding why so few people have basements there.
 
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