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(News9 Oklahoma)   Oklahoma tornado thread #3. LGT live updates/streaming   (news9.com) divider line 565
    More: Followup, Oklahoma, Norton LiveUpdate  
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2636 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 May 2013 at 12:35 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-21 02:32:34 PM
 
2013-05-21 02:32:54 PM

Shadow Blasko: megalynn44: PowerSlacker: megalynn44: I wish I had thought to share this link yesterday, it's always highly useful in weather situation.

http://hint.fm/wind/

North Texas really sucks today.

/awesome site

Yeah, the wind is getting very spinny west of Dallas.

[Deep breath]

Guys, I don't wanna rain on anyones parade here, but http://hint.fm/wind/ is not generated from actual surface readings... or any real-time readings at all.

It is based on a surface wind forecast map from the National Digital Forecast Database. It is not live. It's not even real readings. It's an (hour by hour) forecast weather map, turned into an art project.

It does not take into account individual storms (other than massive storms, like hurricanes or general low pressure areas). It's just a REALLY DAMN COOL artistic layer of a forecast map.

Please don't use it for anything other than "wow, thats cool"... and "it looks like it will be windy in our area, lets try to fly a kite"

/Nothing against them.. I really like it.. but it is not real time or actual observed winds.


Dammit... just got done writing my post saying this same thing, only less eloquently. Heck, I've never seen top speed exceed 35 mph, and you could pretty much guess that's bull.
 
2013-05-21 02:36:31 PM

nukeim: Medic Zero: thisisyourbrainonFark: dumbandilikeit: They had about 20-30mins of warnings, but not much you can do when faced with a storm of that size.

Obvious questions will be whether Plaza Towers and other buildings had underground storm shelters and whether building codes mandate them. Assume they will be now. But if the storm hit as quick as you say, mandatory shelters don't mean jack if you can't get to them.
As another farker said, some of these suburbs look like Dresden times 10.

Early reports had the kids sheltering in a central hallway.

How any building built in Oklahoma can be made out of anything less than concrete and lack a shelter I have no idea. Might as well build on a flood plain.

That school probably was concrete. But like was said (and linked, with a video) above...You throw THAT much crap, THAT hard, at just about any structure, it's going to fail. How thick does a wall need to be to stop an airborne minivan? Pretty much underground is the only safe way to do this, but not a basement, as 1) there aren't many basements in OK due to groundwater or something like that...Houses just aren't built with them and 2) You going to make an underground storm shelter big enough for a thousand kids in EVERY school?

I hope so...But I won't hold my breath.


Superintendent for my local school district just sent this by email:

"In light of the recent tragedy in Moore, we found it appropriate to communicate with you about our school facilities.
The two new elementary schools were designed with pupil safety in mind. Each school has integrated reinforced concrete 'tube' hallways with drop down steel doors to seal these spaces. There are five such areas at the new Highland Park and two larger areas on the first floor at the new Will Rogers. We have taken the design elements of a FEMA safe room and incorporated them into a useful school building with room for 1200 inhabitants as per the following:
1. Specified hallway spaces with 8" reinforced concrete walls
2. 12" reinforced concrete roof deck
3. 30" reinforced concrete foundation
4. Hurricane resistant steel doors on each end of these spaces (built to withstand hurricane wind forces over 200 mph)"

She goes on to say that the older schools are already being reviewed by engineers for their safety features.
 
2013-05-21 02:38:43 PM

WippitGuud: CCTV footage from a gas station that is no longer there


Man, that looked like there was somebody in that car. I hope they made it.
 
2013-05-21 02:38:55 PM

ds_4815: Nerd info for the moment: Dallas-area CAPE values are approaching 3000 J/kg in the latest soundings, and storm-relative helicity is around 250 m2/s2.


Nevermind.. I finally got it.

/Only 650 ... for now.
 
2013-05-21 02:41:08 PM

Shadow Blasko: http://www.fark.com/comments/1641841/New-Orleans-National-Weather-Ser v ice-officially-loses-all-bowel-control

The NWS Katrina "If you didn't leave, y'all gonna die!" bulletin thread.


Much obliged. I've only been a Farker since 2010, interesting read for later.

Surface CAPEs for Detroit and Cincinnati (no Columbus sounding) are 700 and 900, respectively, for 12Z. (Most up-to-date soundings I can find, no specials put up yet.) I actually have GRLevel3, but I've never done anything with CAPE or soundings for that matter with it. How would I go about doing that?
 
2013-05-21 02:44:22 PM

reillan: So now they're saying only 24 dead, not 51 or 91 or whatever.

Still... "only"


Does it help to think of it as "One predator strike on a wedding"?
 
2013-05-21 02:46:54 PM

PowerSlacker: Soonerpsycho: [i.imgur.com image 720x960]

Obligatory fist of an angry god for the girl on the right.


She's about to experience a blow job she'll never forget.
 
2013-05-21 02:47:01 PM

d23: PacificaFitz: CNN just said that the picture of the "couple" walking down the street where the man is holding the girl and the woman has the black eye holding another girls hand isn't parents but in fact teachers.  I've heard a few stories of hero teachers coming from this.  When this is all said and done we Farkers need to make our way down to OK and buy a few rounds....

no doubt:

jobs besides teaching teachers are supposed to do:
Psychologist
Medical Doctor
Family Therapist
Coach
**new** Disaster Planning Coordinator

future:
Armed Bodyguard


"Medical Doctor"?! Come on man. The rest of your point is lost by such ludicrous hyperbole.
 
2013-05-21 02:51:07 PM

Confabulat: I told you, I'm a renter.


As in "someone who isn't tied into ownership and can move to a more sensible location at a few weeks' notice"? That sort of renter?

Here's a simple two stage process for reducing your chances of suffering in a natural disaster.

1. Observe where,historically, people have chosen not to live because of bitter experience of the forces of nature. This includes sandbanks, flood plains, earthquake zones, the slopes of volcanoes and Oklahoma.

2. Don't farking live there.
 
2013-05-21 02:52:19 PM

ds_4815: Shadow Blasko: http://www.fark.com/comments/1641841/New-Orleans-National-Weather-Ser v ice-officially-loses-all-bowel-control

The NWS Katrina "If you didn't leave, y'all gonna die!" bulletin thread.

Much obliged. I've only been a Farker since 2010, interesting read for later.

Surface CAPEs for Detroit and Cincinnati (no Columbus sounding) are 700 and 900, respectively, for 12Z. (Most up-to-date soundings I can find, no specials put up yet.) I actually have GRLevel3, but I've never done anything with CAPE or soundings for that matter with it. How would I go about doing that?


Unfortunately, folllowing the link to the NWS gives you today's weather forecast for NOLA.  It was scary.
 
2013-05-21 02:55:09 PM

orbister: reillan: So now they're saying only 24 dead, not 51 or 91 or whatever.

Still... "only"

Does it help to think of it as "One predator strike on a wedding"?


Plenty of other threads where you can go be a douchebag.  Why'd you pick this one?
 
2013-05-21 02:56:28 PM

Shadow Blasko: /Nothing against them.. I really like it.. but it is not real time or actual observed winds.


Meh. It's once an hour. I've watched multiple hurricanes come in with it and it adds an extra layer of understanding to proceedings. No one's saying it's live radar, but it's still fascinating and relavent.
 
2013-05-21 02:57:51 PM

ds_4815: I actually have GRLevel3, but I've never done anything with CAPE or soundings for that matter with it. How would I go about doing that?


*sheepish grin* Sadly, I don't much about setting up GR3 or X.

I bought it last year after the spring outbreak, and a buddy set it up for me on my old laptop during spotter training. I tried to copy everything over to this laptop when that one died, but there seems to be some serious issues with my configuration. Sometimes I can get it to pull CAPE values as an overlay, but more often than not it just crashes.

/Really ashamed I don't know how to work it.. as a weather geek and a software support guy.
 
2013-05-21 03:05:48 PM

Flab: ds_4815: Shadow Blasko: http://www.fark.com/comments/1641841/New-Orleans-National-Weather-Ser v ice-officially-loses-all-bowel-control

The NWS Katrina "If you didn't leave, y'all gonna die!" bulletin thread.

Much obliged. I've only been a Farker since 2010, interesting read for later.

Surface CAPEs for Detroit and Cincinnati (no Columbus sounding) are 700 and 900, respectively, for 12Z. (Most up-to-date soundings I can find, no specials put up yet.) I actually have GRLevel3, but I've never done anything with CAPE or soundings for that matter with it. How would I go about doing that?

Unfortunately, folllowing the link to the NWS gives you today's weather forecast for NOLA.  It was scary.


Here is the actual text of the bulletin:

000
WWUS74 KLIX 281550
NPWLIX
URGENT - WEATHER MESSAGE
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE NEW ORLEANS LA
1011 AM CDT SUN AUG 28 2005

...DEVASTATING DAMAGE EXPECTED...

.HURRICANE KATRINA...A MOST POWERFUL HURRICANE WITH UNPRECEDENTED
STRENGTH...RIVALING THE INTENSITY OF HURRICANE CAMILLE OF 1969.
MOST OF THE AREA WILL BE UNINHABITABLE FOR WEEKS...PERHAPS LONGER. AT
LEAST ONE HALF OF WELL CONSTRUCTED HOMES WILL HAVE ROOF AND WALL
FAILURE. ALL GABLED ROOFS WILL FAIL...LEAVING THOSE HOMES SEVERELY
DAMAGED OR DESTROYED.

THE MAJORITY OF INDUSTRIAL BUILDINGS WILL BECOME NON FUNCTIONAL.
PARTIAL TO COMPLETE WALL AND ROOF FAILURE IS EXPECTED. ALL WOOD
FRAMED LOW RISING APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL BE DESTROYED. CONCRETE
BLOCK LOW RISE APARTMENTS WILL SUSTAIN MAJOR DAMAGE...INCLUDING SOME
WALL AND ROOF FAILURE.

HIGH RISE OFFICE AND APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL SWAY DANGEROUSLY...A
FEW TO THE POINT OF TOTAL COLLAPSE. ALL WINDOWS WILL BLOW OUT.
AIRBORNE DEBRIS WILL BE WIDESPREAD...AND MAY INCLUDE HEAVY ITEMS SUCH
AS HOUSEHOLD APPLIANCES AND EVEN LIGHT VEHICLES. SPORT UTILITY
VEHICLES AND LIGHT TRUCKS WILL BE MOVED. THE BLOWN DEBRIS WILL CREATE
ADDITIONAL DESTRUCTION. PERSONS...PETS...AND LIVESTOCK EXPOSED TO THE
WINDS WILL FACE CERTAIN DEATH IF STRUCK.

POWER OUTAGES WILL LAST FOR WEEKS...AS MOST POWER POLES WILL BE DOWN
AND TRANSFORMERS DESTROYED. WATER SHORTAGES WILL MAKE HUMAN SUFFERING
INCREDIBLE BY MODERN STANDARDS.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF NATIVE TREES WILL BE SNAPPED OR UPROOTED. ONLY
THE HEARTIEST WILL REMAIN STANDING...BUT BE TOTALLY DEFOLIATED. FEW
CROPS WILL REMAIN. LIVESTOCK LEFT EXPOSED TO THE WINDS WILL BE
KILLED.

AN INLAND HURRICANE WIND WARNING IS ISSUED WHEN SUSTAINED WINDS NEAR
HURRICANE FORCE...OR FREQUENT GUSTS AT OR ABOVE HURRICANE FORCE...ARE
CERTAIN WITHIN THE NEXT 12 TO 24 HOURS.
ONCE TROPICAL STORM AND HURRICANE FORCE WINDS ONSET...DO NOT VENTURE
OUTSIDE!
 
2013-05-21 03:13:08 PM

TanSau: You guys really are newbs
F5 Tornado: Already posted a link on one (of many) solutions
9.0: earthquake: same link, don't build on a cliff.
Wildfires: same building, also, clear trees a MINIMUM of 50' from your home.
I'll just laugh at your asteroid comment. (points) HAha!

So I'm supposed to cure the homeless problem before I make a strong home? interdesting.jpg


Actually, dear, I think you might be the new and naive one here:

EF5 tornado (note we are NOT saying "category 5 hurricane"--the winds in an EF5 tornado are the highest winds ever measured by radar, and we don't get ground measurements of EF5 wind speeds because the farking anenometers tend not to survive)--Pretty much ANY aboveground structure is toast unless it is built to the approximate requirements of an aboveground blast shelter.  This includes your dome-home thingies, this includes even the typical construction in Guam (where apparently Category 5-equivalent typhoons and severe tropical cyclones ARE frequent enough to warrant the local construction codes calling for reinforced concrete in homes).

The very farking definition of what an EF5 tornado is can be summarised as "Will yea and verily wipe any well-constructed structure of man clean to the ground", just in case you're curious.  The definition pretty much explicitly STATES that well-built brick and even concrete structures are not just knocked down but RAZED.

When an EF5 tornado gets REALLY bad (say, Moore, Oklahoma circa 20 May 2013 or Jarrell, Texas circa 27 May 1997)...not even reinforced concrete tends to survive, not even metal survives, NOTHING GODDAMN FARKING SURVIVES ABOVE GROUND.  (It is in fact arguable that the Jarrell, Texas tornado was completely unsurvivable unless one was completely underground to a depth of at least four feet of dirt above one; there are reliable reports from the folks who surveyed that storm that state a building with reinforced concrete walls over two feet thick was completely obliterated and twelve cars (right down to the engine blocks) were so very completely destroyed that they could not find them.  Much of why the Jarrell tornado was such a horror is for pretty much the exact same reason the Moore tornado of 2013 was incredibly destructive--it was a very violent, very slow-moving tornado that tended to sit and grind the evergoddamnliving fark out of what it sat on top of like Satan's own Blendtec.)

9.0 earthquake: In general, if you are unlucky enough to be in an area where this occurs, not only is there typically Modified Mercalli Scale XI-XII levels of damage (yes, the MM scale is basically the Fujita scale for earthquakes) but there are a lot of associated dangers in areas that tend to HAVE quakes this big.  A mere series of estimated 8.4-ish earthquakes (and the only earthquakes in the US with the exception of the Great Alaska Earthquake of 1964 to have been rated XII on the Modified Mercalli Scale) actually caused the very earth to roll in waves, caused massive liquefaction of ground, caused river-based tsunamis that LITERALLY CHANGED THE COURSE OF THE LARGEST RIVER IN NORTH AMERICA AND ONE OF ITS TRIBUTARIES (the Horseshoe and Reelfoot Lakes USED to be the main channel of the Mississippi before the New Madrid mega-swarm in 1811 and 1812) and were so severe that people could not judge lines of SIGHT.

In one of the few 9.0+ events we've had in post-Richter Scale history (the Great Alaska Quake of 1964) you didn't just have chunks of land being washed away or launched into the ocean--you also had massive liquefaction, and massive movement on the fault line itself (there are pics and videos of Anchorage that show buildings being literally uplifted ten feet--or dropped ten feet--just from the quake effects themselves).  The one part of the US that is considered the most vulnerable to a future megaquake of this sort (the Pacific Coast region including Seattle and the US-based suburbs of Vancouver such as Bellingham) also has additional hazards likely to be triggered when the Cascadia subduction zone blows, including fairly massive liquefaction of soil in Seattle and potential triggering of the "Three Sisters" (a series of active volcanoes in the Pacific Coast including Mt. Ranier and Mt. St. Helens) and the attendant lahar and pyroclastic flow risks from the volcanoes waking up.

And yes, there's a reason I harp on that "liquefaction" thing--THAT's what tends to wreck buildings and get people killed in earthquakes.  Liquefaction is basically when an earthquake shakes up an area with a vulnerable soil system (karst does this, landfill in harbor areas which has been built on is also pretty damn infamous for this) and mixes soil in---and the shaking plus soil plus water basically turns the entire farking mess into jelly that is literally made of quicksand and quickmud.  We may have come pretty far in the engineering sciences, but we haven't really figured out a good way to stop soil from turning into quickmud during an earthquake, and some of the more dangerous fault zones in the US (Wabash, New Madrid, and Cascadia) have a LOT of areas that WILL very farking much turn to quickmud and wreck the everloving shiat out of anything atop them that doesn't give.

(And yes, your dome-homes would actually be BAD in such a situation--the very thing that makes them stand up to a Category 5 hurricane (for which they are admittedly good for) would make them very vulnerable in a quake zone where liquefaction occurs.)

Wildfires: You're probably thinking of wildfires of the sort common in the West (which have resulted from years of detritus left from a less enlightened era where the Forest Service did not realise the forest ecosystems were actually fire-dependent and thus tried to snuff every fire out)...however, a number of wildfires (particularly out East and in the Plains states) are NOT in fact related at all to poor forest service management and fire-dependent ecosystems.  In Appalachia, wildfires tend to break out in drought years and can be surprisingly devastating; in places like Oklahoma and Nebraska and Texas, wildfires are less forest fires and more commonly massive grassfires that can threaten homes.  (And I REALLY don't think people will go along with "Don't plant grass in your yard", especially in states like Texas.)

Whilst the "keep a firebreak" is generally a good idea (especially so in the West), it's not the entire story.

(And actually, there's even an ancedote related to Things Falling From The Sky in this with wildfires.  The most massive wildfire in recorded history happened in the fall of 1871, where a goodly portion of Michigan was on fire along with parts of Wisconsin and Illinois (in fact, there has been some recent speculation that the Great Chicago Fire was in fact an extension of the same massive conflagration that also included the Great Peshtigo Fire and the Great Michigan Fire which also occurred around the same period--yes, you're reading this right...there is a non-negligible chance that Chicago burned down in a small extension of a massive wildfire covering three states).  One of the more interesting proposed causes of the massive wildfire is speculation a methane-rich comet fragment may have struck (more likely, however, is the fact that the whole Lake Michigan and Lake Superior region was having a horrid drought at the time and lake-effect winds sparked one of the smaller fires up to a hellish conflagration--basically the same thing that results in Chaparral winds triggering wildfire flares in California, though the ecosystem there is far more fire-dependent).)
 
2013-05-21 03:14:32 PM

orbister: Medic Zero: orbister: Medic Zero: Tanks have had spall liners since WW2

Of course. So you use bigger missiles, or better shaped charges. Saying "but spall liners" is a bit like saying "but battlements".

Sorry, I had thought that through more and wasn't going to post that, but it somehow went through when I responded to another post. Disregard.

'Sfine. Wasn't trying to pick a fight, just point out that just because a projectile is stopped by a barrier may not mean the end of your problems on the other side.


For sure. I think we just added another layer to my dream home if I somehow end up living in tornado country and have the money for it.
 
2013-05-21 03:16:06 PM

Great Porn Dragon: Actually, dear, I think you might be the new and naive one here:

(Brings it hard)

Man, I have the biggest weather/disaster/nerd brocrush on your brain right now.. You have no idea.
 
2013-05-21 03:16:50 PM

TanSau: Confabulat: TanSau: Let's be honest here.

If you live in a tornado or hurricane prone area, and don't have a home/school constructed like this:

http://www.monolithic.com/

Then I have no sympathy for you.

That's hilarious. I suppose the entire Eastern coast of the USA needs to adopt your little hobbit homes before you are willing to shed a tear if they die. You are a very wise person, said no one ever.

Not my company.

and you're right, the entire east coast needs to have a strong infrastructure.

You'll be crying on the doorstep of those hobbit homes during/after a Cat 5 or F5

BTW, you're part of the problem.


As long as we are dreaming about remaking everything, why the hell don't we move all the powerlines and other infrastructure that is up on poles underground? Then we wouldn't have to restring (& repole) all that shiat every time this happens or there is a big wind or ice storm.
 
2013-05-21 03:22:56 PM

Medic Zero: TanSau: Confabulat: TanSau: Let's be honest here.

If you live in a tornado or hurricane prone area, and don't have a home/school constructed like this:

http://www.monolithic.com/

Then I have no sympathy for you.

That's hilarious. I suppose the entire Eastern coast of the USA needs to adopt your little hobbit homes before you are willing to shed a tear if they die. You are a very wise person, said no one ever.

Not my company.

and you're right, the entire east coast needs to have a strong infrastructure.

You'll be crying on the doorstep of those hobbit homes during/after a Cat 5 or F5

BTW, you're part of the problem.

As long as we are dreaming about remaking everything, why the hell don't we move all the powerlines and other infrastructure that is up on poles underground? Then we wouldn't have to restring (& repole) all that shiat every time this happens or there is a big wind or ice storm.


Now THAT is a fantastic idea. The neighborhood I just moved out of had underground utilities, and the ONLY time that area has lost power in the last 10 years was during the Hurricane Ike Wind Disaster. (And, well.. 3/4 of the state was out... so it was understandable)

Unfortunately, it is really only feasible to have underground utilities if they were in place when the area was built. Conversion is expensive.

Also, unfortunately, due to the speed that utilities need to be repaired and replaced during a disaster like this one, you need to be able to do it as fast as possible, and since it takes about 10x as long to do underground utilities (even longer if you have to map out existing underground service.. like water and gas) it is simply not feasible to "upgrade" after a disaster.
 
2013-05-21 03:40:04 PM
Medic Zero: yadda yadda yadda Confabulat: TanSau:

As long as we are dreaming about remaking everything, why the hell don't we move all the powerlines and other infrastructure that is up on poles underground? Then we wouldn't have to restring (& repole) all that shiat every time this happens or there is a big wind or ice storm.


This has been suggested several times, and in many cases, such as certain places in South Florida (yes, they actually got SOMETHING right), have routed power underground.

I also find it amusing how my comments seem to bring out all of the meteorological, geological, and aerodynamic experts showing that NOTHING can survive the CAT5, F5, 9.0 EARTHA-FIRE-CANE concrete liquefying  Zombie Apocalypse.

ok, I get it, we're ALL going to die.

Therefore, all of you who have taken a tornado in the ass and tossed the salad of hurricane Sally, James, Butch and know better than the experts, I leave you the following:

Please build your mobile home in OK/TX/KS, your summer home on a cliff in California, and a time share in Nawlins, because if you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.
 
2013-05-21 03:49:57 PM
on the top of building tornado-safe homes, i think a core-filled reinforced cinderblock wall for a smaller one-story home is totally economic, the biggest expense would really be the concrete but otherwise you'd save money on lumber (which is going up in price), you could also save money on brick by just not doing it and going with stucco or vinyl/fiber cement siding

the only thing that would still be in question is the roof, i'm not sure any amount of tying down a truss into a reinforced concrete wall would keep it from getting destroyed, but i guess it's better than nothing
 
2013-05-21 03:51:04 PM

TanSau: Medic Zero: yadda yadda yadda Confabulat: TanSau:

As long as we are dreaming about remaking everything, why the hell don't we move all the powerlines and other infrastructure that is up on poles underground? Then we wouldn't have to restring (& repole) all that shiat every time this happens or there is a big wind or ice storm.

This has been suggested several times, and in many cases, such as certain places in South Florida (yes, they actually got SOMETHING right), have routed power underground.

I also find it amusing how my comments seem to bring out all of the meteorological, geological, and aerodynamic experts showing that NOTHING can survive the CAT5, F5, 9.0 EARTHA-FIRE-CANE concrete liquefying  Zombie Apocalypse.

ok, I get it, we're ALL going to die.

Therefore, all of you who have taken a tornado in the ass and tossed the salad of hurricane Sally, James, Butch and know better than the experts, I leave you the following:

Please build your mobile home in OK/TX/KS, your summer home on a cliff in California, and a time share in Nawlins, because if you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.


It's simple, really.  People don't like to live in bunkers.
 
2013-05-21 03:51:31 PM
edit: i guess you could double the truss system from 24" O.C. to 12" O.C. or simply do a gang truss 24" O.C. all the way across
 
2013-05-21 03:51:50 PM
No matter what people do to prepare no matter how you build no one can guarantee what will work and what wont for a specific disaster

Can we lay off the blame game and concentrate on recovery and rebuilding lives

To all those who say just move dont live there dont build there did you ever consider that not everyone chooses where to live some people like military or religious workers or unemployed/poor cant say i wont live there it is dangerous people are assigned/stationed/ordered to be in that area
 
2013-05-21 03:52:19 PM

bedtundy: 43 minutes of KFOR OKC Channel 4 coverage of Moore Tornado, for those interested.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga7niHGgSN4

They did an awesome job of getting the warnings out, and communicating with storm chasers.

Hope those in Southeastern OK, Central/Northeast TX, and other points in the midwest stay safe today.


Man, that was freaking incredible. Fantastic coordination of storm chasers, tweets, helicopters, meteorologists, police. No BS, just getting shiat done. This is how news should be, and I'm donating to their station as soon as I can get more info. Seriously, watch this video.
 
2013-05-21 03:59:51 PM
I listened to the OK City Police on a scanner for a few hours just after it hit Moore and it was completely surreal.  They were running out of resources (cops, ambulances, fire, etc.) and surrounding communities were dispatching just about all they had.  Some of what I heard:
-  Military copters enroute for DB's (dead bodies) and survivors
-  We (a nearby city) are enroute with 50 cars (cops) and ambulances
-  The schools are gone
-  The hospital is gone
And there were gas leaks everywhere.  This was unreal.
 
2013-05-21 04:10:05 PM
Moore Tornado upgraded to an EF5:

PUBLIC INFORMATION STATEMENT
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE NORMAN OK
250 PM CDT TUE MAY 21 2013

...NWS DAMAGE SURVEY FOR 5/20/2013 NEWCASTLE/MOORE TORNADO EVENT -
UPDATE 3...

...NWS DAMAGE SURVEY HAS NOW RATED THE NEWCASTLE/MOORE TORNADO AS EF5...

.OVERVIEW...

THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE DISPATCHED FOUR DAMAGE SURVEY TEAMS TO
THE PATH OF THE NEWCASTLE/MOORE OK TORNADO. NEW STATEMENTS WILL BE
ISSUED THROUGHOUT THE DAY AS THESE TEAMS REPORT FINDINGS. THIS
INFORMATION REMAINS PRELIMINARY AND THE INFORMATION HERE COULD
CHANGE.

.NEWCASTLE/MOORE TORNADO

RATING: EF5
ESTIMATED PEAK WIND: 200-210 MPH
PATH LENGTH /STATUTE/: 17 MILES
PATH WIDTH /MAXIMUM/: 1.3 MILES
FATALITIES: N/A
INJURIES: N/A

START DATE: MAY 20 2013
START TIME: 2:45 PM CDT
START LOCATION: 4.4 W NEWCASTLE /GRADY COUNTY /OK
START LAT/LON: 35.2580 / -97.6775

END DATE: MAY 20 2013
END TIME: 3:35 PM CDT
END LOCATION: 4.8 E OF MOORE OK /CLEVELAND COUNTY /OK
END LAT/LON: 35.3409 / -97.4007

SURVEY SUMMARY: EXPERTS SURVEYING IN MOORE HAVE DETERMINED DAMAGE IS
EF5 WITH MAXIMUM WINDS OVER 200 MPH. FOUR SURVEY TEAMS CONTINUE TO
INSPECT DAMAGE FROM THIS LONG TRACK TORNADO. INITIAL DAMAGE WAS
FOUND AROUND 4.4 MILES WEST OF NEWCASTLE...SOUTH OF TECUMSEH ROAD
ALSO KNOWN AS NW 16TH STREET AND EAST LAKE ROAD. THE TORNADO TRACKED
NE TO THE INTERSTATE 44 BRIDGE OVER THE CANADIAN RIVER AND THEN TOOK
A MORE EASTWARD TRACK THROUGH MOORE. TORNADO DAMAGE ABRUPTLY ENDS
0.3 MILES EAST OF AIR DEPOT ROAD AND N OF SE 134TH ST.

INITIALLY PRODUCING EF0 AND EF1 DAMAGE THE STORM INTENSIFIED VERY
RAPIDLY IN 4 MILES OR AROUND 10 MINUTES PRODUCING EF4 DAMAGE BEFORE
REACHING INTERSTATE 44. NUMEROUS INDICATIONS OF EF4 DAMAGE WITH SOME
AREAS NOW DETERMINED AT EF5 DAMAGE...THE HIGHEST CATEGORY ON THE EF
SCALE...WITH OVER 200 MPH WINDS.

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION SUCH AS MAXIMUM PATH WIDTH WILL BE UPDATED
AS THE TEAMS COMPLETE THEIR SURVEYS.
 
2013-05-21 04:15:59 PM

Random Name Generator: Moore Tornado upgraded to an EF5:


Not surprising.  Thanks for update.
 
2013-05-21 04:19:02 PM
I'm sorry but the correct answer is "Moops"


It was the Moops Tornado.
 
2013-05-21 04:19:40 PM

TanSau: Medic Zero: yadda yadda yadda Confabulat: TanSau:

As long as we are dreaming about remaking everything, why the hell don't we move all the powerlines and other infrastructure that is up on poles underground? Then we wouldn't have to restring (& repole) all that shiat every time this happens or there is a big wind or ice storm.

This has been suggested several times, and in many cases, such as certain places in South Florida (yes, they actually got SOMETHING right), have routed power underground.

I also find it amusing how my comments seem to bring out all of the meteorological, geological, and aerodynamic experts showing that NOTHING can survive the CAT5, F5, 9.0 EARTHA-FIRE-CANE concrete liquefying  Zombie Apocalypse.

ok, I get it, we're ALL going to die.

Therefore, all of you who have taken a tornado in the ass and tossed the salad of hurricane Sally, James, Butch and know better than the experts, I leave you the following:

Please build your mobile home in OK/TX/KS, your summer home on a cliff in California, and a time share in Nawlins, because if you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.


I've had the misfortune of experiencing three tornadic episodes in my life, and while they were nothing near what happened yesterday, rest assured that each one was a "loss of bowel control" event. Trust me, you really don't want to look that beast in the eye - even if it's a measley little EF-1.

I think the "meteorological, geological, and aerodynamic expert" Farkers are trying to say that in a natural disaster of the magnitude that we saw yesterday in Moore, you're going to need a lot of luck to survive. Living/sheltering in a geodesic dome doesn't necessarily increase your odds of a favorable outcome when winds are in excess of 200 mph and the storm moves so slowly that it literally chews up everything in its path and tosses the remains for miles upon miles. The only sure-fire way to ensure survival is to flee the area PRONTO, or get underground.

farm8.staticflickr.com
 
2013-05-21 04:19:44 PM

Shadow Blasko: Flab: ds_4815: Shadow Blasko: http://www.fark.com/comments/1641841/New-Orleans-National-Weather-Ser v ice-officially-loses-all-bowel-control

The NWS Katrina "If you didn't leave, y'all gonna die!" bulletin thread.

Much obliged. I've only been a Farker since 2010, interesting read for later.

Surface CAPEs for Detroit and Cincinnati (no Columbus sounding) are 700 and 900, respectively, for 12Z. (Most up-to-date soundings I can find, no specials put up yet.) I actually have GRLevel3, but I've never done anything with CAPE or soundings for that matter with it. How would I go about doing that?

Unfortunately, folllowing the link to the NWS gives you today's weather forecast for NOLA.  It was scary.

Here is the actual text of the bulletin:

000
WWUS74 KLIX 281550
NPWLIX
URGENT - WEATHER MESSAGE
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE NEW ORLEANS LA
1011 AM CDT SUN AUG 28 2005

...DEVASTATING DAMAGE EXPECTED...

.HURRICANE KATRINA...A MOST POWERFUL HURRICANE WITH UNPRECEDENTED
STRENGTH...RIVALING THE INTENSITY OF HURRICANE CAMILLE OF 1969.
MOST OF THE AREA WILL BE UNINHABITABLE FOR WEEKS...PERHAPS LONGER. AT
LEAST ONE HALF OF WELL CONSTRUCTED HOMES WILL HAVE ROOF AND WALL
FAILURE. ALL GABLED ROOFS WILL FAIL...LEAVING THOSE HOMES SEVERELY
DAMAGED OR DESTROYED.

THE MAJORITY OF INDUSTRIAL BUILDINGS WILL BECOME NON FUNCTIONAL.
PARTIAL TO COMPLETE WALL AND ROOF FAILURE IS EXPECTED. ALL WOOD
FRAMED LOW RISING APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL BE DESTROYED. CONCRETE
BLOCK LOW RISE APARTMENTS WILL SUSTAIN MAJOR DAMAGE...INCLUDING SOME
WALL AND ROOF FAILURE.

HIGH RISE OFFICE AND APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL SWAY DANGEROUSLY...A
FEW TO THE POINT OF TOTAL COLLAPSE. ALL WINDOWS WILL BLOW OUT.
AIRBORNE DEBRIS WILL BE WIDESPREAD...AND MAY INCLUDE HEAVY ITEMS SUCH
AS HOUSEHOLD APPLIANCES AND EVEN LIGHT VEHICLES. SPORT UTILITY
VEHICLES AND LIGHT TRUCKS WILL BE MOVED. THE BLOWN DEBRIS WILL CREATE
ADDITIONAL DESTRUCTION. PERSONS...PETS...AND LIVESTOCK EXPOSED TO THE
WINDS WILL FACE CERTAIN DEATH IF STRUCK.

POWE ...


holy crap, I never saw that before and I have been a lurker since 2002 (first account in 2005 I think, forgot password, still remember the username though)

If you read something like that from a legitimate source.....RUN
 
2013-05-21 04:23:14 PM

RatOmeter: nukeim: Medic Zero: thisisyourbrainonFark: dumbandilikeit: They had about 20-30mins of warnings, but not much you can do when faced with a storm of that size.

Obvious questions will be whether Plaza Towers and other buildings had underground storm shelters and whether building codes mandate them. Assume they will be now. But if the storm hit as quick as you say, mandatory shelters don't mean jack if you can't get to them.
As another farker said, some of these suburbs look like Dresden times 10.

Early reports had the kids sheltering in a central hallway.

How any building built in Oklahoma can be made out of anything less than concrete and lack a shelter I have no idea. Might as well build on a flood plain.

That school probably was concrete. But like was said (and linked, with a video) above...You throw THAT much crap, THAT hard, at just about any structure, it's going to fail. How thick does a wall need to be to stop an airborne minivan? Pretty much underground is the only safe way to do this, but not a basement, as 1) there aren't many basements in OK due to groundwater or something like that...Houses just aren't built with them and 2) You going to make an underground storm shelter big enough for a thousand kids in EVERY school?

I hope so...But I won't hold my breath.

Superintendent for my local school district just sent this by email:

"In light of the recent tragedy in Moore, we found it appropriate to communicate with you about our school facilities.
The two new elementary schools were designed with pupil safety in mind. Each school has integrated reinforced concrete 'tube' hallways with drop down steel doors to seal these spaces. There are five such areas at the new Highland Park and two larger areas on the first floor at the new Will Rogers. We have taken the design elements of a FEMA safe room and incorporated them into a useful school building with room for 1200 inhabitants as per the following:
1. Specified hallway spaces with 8" reinforced concrete wa ...


Well, lookie there! All you nay-sayers! "Can't be done" "Too expensive" "We don't have the money for that"
 
2013-05-21 04:47:21 PM
LOL
i.imgur.com

There's me... Southeast of Columbus. Sun is shining, birds are singing.. and there is a KICKASS thunderstorm 1 mile south of me.
 
2013-05-21 04:56:00 PM

4NTLRZ: TanSau: Medic Zero: yadda yadda yadda Confabulat: TanSau:

As long as we are dreaming about remaking everything, why the hell don't we move all the powerlines and other infrastructure that is up on poles underground? Then we wouldn't have to restring (& repole) all that shiat every time this happens or there is a big wind or ice storm.

This has been suggested several times, and in many cases, such as certain places in South Florida (yes, they actually got SOMETHING right), have routed power underground.

I also find it amusing how my comments seem to bring out all of the meteorological, geological, and aerodynamic experts showing that NOTHING can survive the CAT5, F5, 9.0 EARTHA-FIRE-CANE concrete liquefying  Zombie Apocalypse.

ok, I get it, we're ALL going to die.

Therefore, all of you who have taken a tornado in the ass and tossed the salad of hurricane Sally, James, Butch and know better than the experts, I leave you the following:

Please build your mobile home in OK/TX/KS, your summer home on a cliff in California, and a time share in Nawlins, because if you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.

I've had the misfortune of experiencing three tornadic episodes in my life, and while they were nothing near what happened yesterday, rest assured that each one was a "loss of bowel control" event. Trust me, you really don't want to look that beast in the eye - even if it's a measley little EF-1.

I think the "meteorological, geological, and aerodynamic expert" Farkers are trying to say that in a natural disaster of the magnitude that we saw yesterday in Moore, you're going to need a lot of luck to survive. Living/sheltering in a geodesic dome doesn't necessarily increase your odds of a favorable outcome when winds are in excess of 200 mph and the storm moves so slowly that it literally chews up everything in its path and tosses the remains for miles upon miles. The only sure-fire waay to ensure survival is to flee the area PRONTO, or get underground.

[farm8.staticf ...


How often are they slow moving F5's? Can't we build for the more common F3's and below and realize that bigger than that is going to probably overmatch it? This is what we do for earthquakes, virtually nothing is made to stand against an 8 or 9, IIRC 6 used to be the standard, but I think in some places it's been bumped up to 7. It sounds like everyone is argueing against doing anything at all because F5's and ricther 9's happen.
 
2013-05-21 05:03:48 PM

TanSau: Medic Zero: yadda yadda yadda Confabulat: TanSau:

As long as we are dreaming about remaking everything, why the hell don't we move all the powerlines and other infrastructure that is up on poles underground? Then we wouldn't have to restring (& repole) all that shiat every time this happens or there is a big wind or ice storm.

This has been suggested several times, and in many cases, such as certain places in South Florida (yes, they actually got SOMETHING right), have routed power underground.

I also find it amusing how my comments seem to bring out all of the meteorological, geological, and aerodynamic experts showing that NOTHING can survive the CAT5, F5, 9.0 EARTHA-FIRE-CANE concrete liquefying  Zombie Apocalypse.

ok, I get it, we're ALL going to die.

Therefore, all of you who have taken a tornado in the ass and tossed the salad of hurricane Sally, James, Butch and know better than the experts, I leave you the following:

Please build your mobile home in OK/TX/KS, your summer home on a cliff in California, and a time share in Nawlins, because if you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough.


Dear DerpTau:

I invite you to find somewhere in North America--nay, on the whole happy waterlogged bit of rock and organic material we call Earth--somewhere that is safe from a natural disaster that is capable of destroying even well-built construction.

Difficulty in this--there really ARE a lot of ways things can go sideways thanks to Mother Nature (whom at times can be a real motherfarker):

1) There really are a surprising number of cracks in the ground that move, a lot of times in places you don't expect them (one of the more dangerous regions in the US for earthquakes is the Mississippi River basin, thanks to a failed attempt by North America to split itself into two continents right around the Ediacaran era; even worse, we know rather less about how seismic systems work in failed rift zones than we do in more traditional seismic zones like subduction faults (Cascadia, Fukushima, et al) or strike-slip faults (pretty much the entire farking state of California below Sacramento or so--basically Baja California is trying very, very hard to become North America's own Madagascar).

Oh, and for bonus fun--there is apparently a known fault line that runs right under Manhattan which is expected to wreck a good part of New York City when it goes, and there are a lot of fault lines in the East Coast (remnants from the formation of the Appalachian Mountains) that even compared to the Mississippi Valley Rift Zone are very poorly documented--some are considered to potentially be as risky, but we know very little about these.  (We pretty much found ONE of these fault systems when it damn near took out the Washington Monument a year or three back.)

2) There are a lot of holes that tend to spew lava unexpectedly (some of which don't even look like what one would think of as a volcano--pretty much all of Yellowstone National Park is a massive dormant supervolcano that is a wee bit overdue for its next eruption) and the really big superheated-molten-rock-spewing-holes can affect things pretty damn far away (explosive volcanoes like (INSERT UNPRONOUNCEABLE-BY-NON-VIKINGS ICELANDIC VOLCANOES HERE) and Mt. Pinatubo can fark up weather, big volcanic booms like Krakatoa and Mt. Tambora can pretty much wipe out growing seasons, and...well...the last time that Yellowstone blew its load there was foot-deep ash in North America just about to the Mississippi River and it did cause an Honest-To-Ithaqua Ice Age).

Oh, and even if the volcano doesn't wreck your home with (say) the supersonic cloud of toxic gas and burning rock dust (pyroclastic flows) or the huge flood of quickmud made out of essentially CEMENT when it flash-melts the glacier on top of the volcano (lahars--this is one of the real killers in volcanoes, and why Portland is nicely farked when Mt. Ranier goes) just the ash is more than capable of collapsing buildings.   Mt. St. Helens was a little volcanic boom and there were still homes some 200 miles away that had collapsed roofs from its ash.

3) About the only ocean that DIDN'T get hurricane-like storms until recently was the South Atlantic, and thanks to global climate change we're even starting to get hurricanes in Brazil (which is goddamned astonishing in its own way that they're now common enough they've had to come up with a formal naming system for South Atlantic hurricanes--up until the early 90s, hurricane-like storms in the Mediterranean and the Great Lakes were actually more common (yes, there are storms that have formed that would be classified as hurricanes or at the very least as subtropical storms that have formed in both big bodies of water).  Hurricanes also have a tendency to actually keep themselves at hurricane strength fairly well inland (quite away from the beach)--some of the worse weather the UK gets is from hurricanes from the Atlantic Coast hitting, and I personally had LOTS of fun with Hurricane Ivan (which actually kept its hurricane strength WELL up into Kentucky--farker knocked my power out for two weeks).

4) Big Snow, much like Big Volcanic Earth Hershey-Squirts, can ALSO knock down roofs and such.  Doubly so if instead of Big Snow it becomes Big Ice, which tends to be heavier and a lot harder to remove.  (Yes, in our last ice-storm from hell, people actually lost roofs over it...because the weight of the ice caused even new roofs to collapse.  I will note that there WERE areas that received well over two inches of ice, and that much ice on a roof's full surface is HEAVY.)

5) We are getting pretty damn good at predicting weather, but we are not quite good enough to predict where a bit of whirlydoom will hit less than about thirty minutes in advance (the mere fact we can issue "enhanced risk" tornado watches and GIVE the thirty minutes warning is nothing short of spectacular--tornadoes are pretty much THE prototypical example of what happens when a chaotic system goes into a runaway condition for a bit).  If we were to abandon every state where there is a higher-than-usual risk of severe wind damage (including not just tornadoes but derechos--"straight line" wind damage that can be every bit as powerful as a category 5 hurricane or EF3 tornado at its worst) the only places people would be able to live would be along the West Coast (where there's an extreme risk of volcanism and fault lines) or the East Coast (which is...also...at risk of hurricane winds, flooding, severe winter storms, and fault systems that are even more poorly documented than the Wabash and New Madrid faultlines and potentially just as risky).

I'm not kidding on the "you'd have to abandon pretty much everywhere in North America where we can grow food", either.  Here is a map of major tornadogenesis in the US:

upload.wikimedia.org

And here is a map of four of the five commonly recognised Tornado Alleys (the fifth is basically the entire state of Florida):


(Yes, this is where most of the food that's grown in the US comes from that doesn't come from California or Florida.  Except that Florida is a tornadogenic and hurricane-prone region, and California is fault-ridden and has the occasional dormant and semidormant volcano.  Good luck trying to move everyone to Arizona or Alaska--wait, nope, Alaska is out too because they have many, many versions of the Cascadia fault zone.)

6) Oh, one thing I also didn't mention--floods.  You hinted at this with New Orleans, but a lot of areas do get floods, and sometimes in very surprising areas...Arizona tends to get the shiat flooded out of it during the times it DOES get rain and it's not damn near the hottest spot on the planet.  Lots of areas that aren't within the 100-year flood plain can flood.  There's even a human-made reason why stuff will flood--humans have learned from Beaver how to make dams to keep water around during droughts, and sometimes those dams will either break (either from age, bad construction, or--ironically--a shiatload of water from the sky) or will overflow...thus resulting in a shiat-ton of water exerting a shiat-ton of force to scour the shiat out of anything in its way.

(And not exaggerating on that, either.  A lot of how the Colorado River has a lot of canyons--most famously the Grand Canyon but also the Black Canyon of the Gunnison--is because it regularly has flooded through most of its geologic history, and a fair amount of the canyon-building did happen when a glacial lake (which formerly covered most of the state of Utah) broke.  Hell, the floods (from what were essentially river tsunamis) during the Three Months of Hell in New Madrid in 1811 and 1812 managed to change the course of the Mississippi and Ohio Rivers as well (to the point you have little bits of interesting irregularities in crossing the Ohio starting from about Henderson south--like little bits of land before you hit the river proper that are in the "wrong state" because they did the "this is where Indiana is" survey based on the OLD pre-1812 course of the Ohio).)

What is more practical, IMHO...you should try to make a home storm-ready, yes, but this includes not only stuff like "not building in a 100-year flood plain" and "use hurricane straps in construction if you live in a Force IV wind field" but also "Here's what to do when Shiat Gets Real and Mother Nature Decides To Be A Motherfarker".
 
2013-05-21 05:06:59 PM
Aaaaand since Fark didn't like my second pic, here's another pic of four of the five recognised Tornado Alleys:

edn-systems.com

Again...unless you live in California (where you get to worry about wildfires and earthquakes and possibly even supervolcano eruptions--hi, Lake Mammoth!) good luck living anywhere that ISN'T in a Tornado Alley if you actually, you know, like to make food happen and not have the US relying on donations from UNICEF.
 
2013-05-21 05:09:01 PM
Tornado warning!

...For Massachusetts and Connecticut?

Goddamned East Coast bias.
 
2013-05-21 05:20:14 PM

Fiction Fan: "was the middle video photo-shopped"

technically you can Photoshop (no hyphen) a video, but it's tough to do.
Comes out grainy, usually has to be in GIF format, even when you manage it out of GIF it's still in low quality and you can create something faster, more believable and fun to watch in Motion, After Effects or Final Cut. Hell, even Sony Vegas or iMovie can do it better with a video than Photoshop.

So to answer your question, I don't know.
But probably not Photoshop. Probably After Effects.


Yeah, going to blame the phone on the hyphen. It auto corrects so damned much on the latest update that I gave up correcting the auto correct. The Photoshop comment is pertaining to the static "play" screen image which makes no sense, and is nowhere to be found in the video.
 
2013-05-21 05:23:29 PM

RatOmeter: nukeim: Medic Zero: thisisyourbrainonFark: dumbandilikeit: They had about 20-30mins of warnings, but not much you can do when faced with a storm of that size.

Obvious questions will be whether Plaza Towers and other buildings had underground storm shelters and whether building codes mandate them. Assume they will be now. But if the storm hit as quick as you say, mandatory shelters don't mean jack if you can't get to them.
As another farker said, some of these suburbs look like Dresden times 10.

Early reports had the kids sheltering in a central hallway.

How any building built in Oklahoma can be made out of anything less than concrete and lack a shelter I have no idea. Might as well build on a flood plain.

That school probably was concrete. But like was said (and linked, with a video) above...You throw THAT much crap, THAT hard, at just about any structure, it's going to fail. How thick does a wall need to be to stop an airborne minivan? Pretty much underground is the only safe way to do this, but not a basement, as 1) there aren't many basements in OK due to groundwater or something like that...Houses just aren't built with them and 2) You going to make an underground storm shelter big enough for a thousand kids in EVERY school?

I hope so...But I won't hold my breath.

Superintendent for my local school district just sent this by email:

"In light of the recent tragedy in Moore, we found it appropriate to communicate with you about our school facilities.
The two new elementary schools were designed with pupil safety in mind. Each school has integrated reinforced concrete 'tube' hallways with drop down steel doors to seal these spaces. There are five such areas at the new Highland Park and two larger areas on the first floor at the new Will Rogers. We have taken the design elements of a FEMA safe room and incorporated them into a useful school building with room for 1200 inhabitants as per the following:
1. Specified hallway spaces with 8" reinforced concrete wa ...


If a building takes a direct hit from an F5, all those fancy doodads aren't gonna mean squat.  Madam Nature is in control.
 
2013-05-21 05:26:59 PM
Thank you great porn dragon

For the asshat/trolls saying that say people should build storm proof/weather proof/natural disaster proof homes and schools or not live in these areas shiat happens no matter where you live shiat happens get over it stop blaming everyone for what cannot be controlled

Can we all now concentrate on helping the people who have lost their homes livelihoods and all their worldly possessions and show these people that we do have common decency and respect for the fact people are dead children are dead and people are missing some may have life long injuries they may never recover from

Or are all the asshat/trolls going to start the "truther" bs and start claiming that this was all staged
 
2013-05-21 05:32:49 PM
Just using screws instead of nails for construction helps a stick built home survive a tornado, though not one as intense as this one, of course.
 
2013-05-21 05:40:26 PM

jfarkinB: Flab: The thing that seriously bugs me about these tornades is: why doesn't anyone in Tornado Alley have basements?

I don't buy the "water-table's too high" argument.  Buy a freaking sump pump, if you're afraid of water seeping in.

Sump pumps usually run on electrical power, which frequently fails during violent storms.

Make your argument to the parents of the kids who farking drowned in their school's farking basement.


Not sure why one is necessarily related to the other, but if you're putting in a sump in a new basement in a new house in the last several decades a backup (marine battery backup) is a fairly standard/cheap feature.  The house I have was built in '82 and had one standard, as do most other constructions in that timeframe and after. Someone else I know had their house built in the '60s and they were told that they should have one and they put one in.  Just make sure the battery is fresh, activate it once a year.  When we've had to shelter in place we do so in the bathroom underneath the stairs, 5 feet from the sump.  The only time it hasn't worked was when they were putting in the geothermal heat pump and disconnected both the backup and primary and neglected to reconnect them when they were done.

As to the situation in the basement of that school:  Unless you have more information about what went down there than the rest of us, conflating that with what residents could have done on their own property, or using it as proof that sump pumps wouldn't have worked in residential basements without being able to say how that basement was equipped, why they chose the basement, why that part of the basement etc, is just sloppy argumentation.  Trying to prove your point off the backs of 7 dead kids without knowing what the situation down there was, is talking out your ass, and likely to make you look like one.
 
2013-05-21 05:55:31 PM

esteban9: Soonerpsycho: [i.imgur.com image 720x960]

Looking for the moral of that picture...


Tornados are just as bad as llamas for photobombing.
 
2013-05-21 05:59:51 PM
To all the asshat trolls calling people suggesting we concentrate on helping the afflicted: WELCOME TO FARK!

/ Can't help over the internet
// Not giving $, I'm broke 'til payday.
 
2013-05-21 06:06:02 PM

Medic Zero: 4NTLRZ:

I've had the misfortune of experiencing three tornadic episodes in my life, and while they were nothing near what happened yesterday, rest assured that each one was a "loss of bowel control" event. Trust me, you really don't want to look that beast in the eye - even if it's a measley little EF-1.

I think the "meteorological, geological, and aerodynamic expert" Farkers are trying to say that in a natural disaster of the magnitude that we saw yesterday in Moore, you're going to need a lot of luck to survive. Living/sheltering in a geodesic dome doesn't necessarily increase your odds of a favorable outcome when winds are in excess of 200 mph and the storm moves so slowly that it literally chews up everything in its path and tosses the remains for miles upon miles. The only sure-fire waay to ensure survival is to flee the area PRONTO, or get underground.

How often are they slow moving F5's?


I honestly don't know the answer to that question, but I'd guess that those more powerful EF-4 & EF-5s are far less common - thank goodness. Again, that's pure speculation.

Can't we build for the more common F3's and below and realize that bigger than that is going to probably overmatch it?

Provided homeowners have the means to do so, that seems like a reasonable idea. However, having experienced them first-hand and having lived in "Tornado Alley" my entire life, the only place I feel safe is either A) miles away, or B) underground - and even being below ground is scarry as all get-out!

There's also problems in certain areas of "Tornado Alley" where basement construction is concerned. In many areas of the Texas Hill Country - high water table issues aside - you have very deep bedrock that either makes a basement cost prohibitive or nearly impossible to dig through and build a home on.

This is what we do for earthquakes, virtually nothing is made to stand against an 8 or 9, IIRC 6 used to be the standard, but I think in some places it's been bumped up to 7. It sounds like everyone is argueing against doing anything at all because F5's and ricther 9's happen.

I think it's a matter of how much risk an individual is willing to take & what one can afford, really. Personally, I'd love to be able to have a basement in my home (Mrs. 4NTLRZ comes from the Chicago area where they're common & has fond childhood memories of their basement/play room), but it's just not possible. Here in North Texas, we have this crappy clay soil that constantly shifts and is the reason I've been told that basements just aren't a viable option - unless you're down with spending thousands annually to have your foundation repaired.
 
2013-05-21 06:15:11 PM

FreudulentSplit: jfarkinB: Flab: The thing that seriously bugs me about these tornades is: why doesn't anyone in Tornado Alley have basements?

I don't buy the "water-table's too high" argument.  Buy a freaking sump pump, if you're afraid of water seeping in.

Sump pumps usually run on electrical power, which frequently fails during violent storms.

Make your argument to the parents of the kids who farking drowned in their school's farking basement.

Not sure why one is necessarily related to the other, but if you're putting in a sump in a new basement in a new house in the last several decades a backup (marine battery backup) is a fairly standard/cheap feature.  The house I have was built in '82 and had one standard, as do most other constructions in that timeframe and after. Someone else I know had their house built in the '60s and they were told that they should have one and they put one in.  Just make sure the battery is fresh, activate it once a year.  When we've had to shelter in place we do so in the bathroom underneath the stairs, 5 feet from the sump.  The only time it hasn't worked was when they were putting in the geothermal heat pump and disconnected both the backup and primary and neglected to reconnect them when they were done.

As to the situation in the basement of that school:  Unless you have more information about what went down there than the rest of us, conflating that with what residents could have done on their own property, or using it as proof that sump pumps wouldn't have worked in residential basements without being able to say how that basement was equipped, why they chose the basement, why that part of the basement etc, is just sloppy argumentation.  Trying to prove your point off the backs of 7 dead kids without knowing what the situation down there was, is talking out your ass, and likely to make you look like one.


www.news9.com/livefeed

Kids sheltered in basement, walls collapsed on top of them, rain filled basement and they drowned search and rescue officials were on/off tv during the night talking about this and how they were having to cut through the steel reinforcing rebar in order to even look for people

The electricity did go out, so how would a back up battery for a pump make a difference when the kids were under reinforced concrete and the basement was filling with rain no matter what kind of pump no matter the back up a point is reached where the pump cant keep up and fail

Lets end asshat replies about use a pump does anyone know if there is a completely 100% self contained guaranteed to never fail never lose power pump that can keep up with an unpredictable influx of water, well there might be, but it would not help the people that are dead now if there is let us all know otherwise stfu and stop blaming the victims for not building to your utopian world standards that are
only determined *after* disasters are analysed
 
2013-05-21 06:21:19 PM

Gleeman: Just using screws instead of nails for construction helps a stick built home survive a tornado, though not one as intense as this one, of course.


This!

The McMansion that I live in (yeah, yeah.  I got the land and lake I wanted, my wife got the obscene house she wanted.  Fark you) is the bloatiest, slip-shoddiest, slipping-nail ridden piece of construction that a guy could have the misfortune to blow 300k on.  The people who sold it to us had to hire someone to shore up the warpy 2x4 roof supports after our house inspector (buyers: PLEASE help yourself by hiring an inspector) pointed out the sags in the roof and why they were happening.  I've gone up in the attic to re-attach separating joints with screws since then, but I suspect even straight-line winds much over 60 MPH will do serious damage to this monstrosity.
 
2013-05-21 06:26:53 PM

Flab: orbister: reillan: So now they're saying only 24 dead, not 51 or 91 or whatever.

Still... "only"

Does it help to think of it as "One predator strike on a wedding"?

Plenty of other threads where you can go be a douchebag.  Why'd you pick this one?


Just putting the hysteria in context. There are people here who sound disappointed that ithasn't all been a bit bloodier. In the grand scheme of things, it;s been a small, local unpleasantness. Isn't that quite good, when you think about it?
 
2013-05-21 06:29:46 PM

Medic Zero: orbister: Medic Zero: orbister: Medic Zero: Tanks have had spall liners since WW2

Of course. So you use bigger missiles, or better shaped charges. Saying "but spall liners" is a bit like saying "but battlements".

Sorry, I had thought that through more and wasn't going to post that, but it somehow went through when I responded to another post. Disregard.

'Sfine. Wasn't trying to pick a fight, just point out that just because a projectile is stopped by a barrier may not mean the end of your problems on the other side.

For sure. I think we just added another layer to my dream home if I somehow end up living in tornado country and have the money for it.


Active armour - the stuff that explodes when hit - could be fun, and would also help fend off Jehovah's witnesses. Which is a win-win, in my book.
 
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