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(Some Guy)   An examination of all the stuff that made your brain hurt during the Doctor Who season finale   (hobotrashcan.com) divider line 120
    More: Cool, Doctor Who, physicians, Rose Tyler, Victorian London, Martha Jones, Jenna-Louise Coleman, exams, Eleventh Doctor  
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3700 clicks; posted to Geek » on 20 May 2013 at 5:36 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-20 07:43:48 PM  

ShawnDoc: and he balked at doing it and allowed them to live.


He didn't so much balk as navel gaze until the moment had passed.

Genesis of the Daleks is a really good Fourth Doctor serial. One of the best.
 
2013-05-20 07:46:19 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: Maybe Hurt Doctor didn't give someone the choice to repent, and that is his sin.


His sin is that he not only killed the Daleks, but also the Timelords and all of those races caught in the crossfire (like the Gelth from The Unquiet Dead).
 
2013-05-20 07:47:51 PM  

PizzaJedi81: That was particularly cruel, but he makes no bones about that having been part of his life. I'm in the camp that believes that Hurt!Doctor (Anybody else think that's a very appropriate designation.), is from BEFORE he statred traveling. It makes a certain amount of sense to me. The limit on regenerations is a convention, not a biological limit. Hartnell was, retroactively I admit, called the FIRST Doctor, and ran away for a reason. Everything SINCE then he's been more or less open about. He makes no bones, even while denying the details, of having wiped out his own people.


Haven't thought of that.
The Doctor does say he chose his name when he was young, though, after having gazed into the Untempered Schism. I would be skeptical about something coming from earlier in his life, because that seems more or less accounted for. What we don't have is the Doctor's full future, though we know the evil Valeyard is one possibility, nor do we know what happened during the Time War. Both would call back to the old series for the 50th anniversary, but the Time War would really bridge it.
 
2013-05-20 07:51:46 PM  

PizzaJedi81: Sergeant Grumbles: The ending monologue from "Human Nature" kind of makes it apparent how fearsome he could be if he wanted to, but makes the conscious choice not to.

That was particularly cruel, but he makes no bones about that having been part of his life. I'm in the camp that believes that Hurt!Doctor (Anybody else think that's a very appropriate designation.), is from BEFORE he statred traveling. It makes a certain amount of sense to me. The limit on regenerations is a convention, not a biological limit. Hartnell was, retroactively I admit, called the FIRST Doctor, and ran away for a reason. Everything SINCE then he's been more or less open about. He makes no bones, even while denying the details, of having wiped out his own people.


While it's true what everyone says about him owning up to his role in the Time War, a lot of people forget that upon regenerating The Doctor becomes an entirely different person. Their shared memories are intact, but for all intents and purposes they are separate beings. We even see this put on display when the 10th Doctor cries "I don't want to go." when he becomes the 11th.

So it's not entirely implausible that while his later incarnations have more or less accepted what happened during the Time War, that does not mean they must acknowledge the incarnation of themselves that caused the Genocide of their species. It makes perfect sense that the later incarnations would intentionally ignore the version of them that committed these atrocities. Since he was, from a certain perspective, a separate being from themselves.
 
2013-05-20 07:54:31 PM  

Great Janitor: TV's Vinnie: I have a tire iron that I wanna use to make Steven Moffat's brain hurt for gypping us out of learning the Doctor's true name after a year of hype.

You honestly thought that was going to get answered?  Truthfully, that is the one question that will never get answered because if it does get answered, the show ends.  And honestly, I hope it never gets answered.  Not because I want the show to continue forever, but at this point, no name could be as good as anything we've come up with.

/I say his name was Kuntakente

Bop She Wop, Son of Sha Na NA  before changing it to Tobi Peggy Flemming.

FTFM
 
2013-05-20 08:27:06 PM  

mongbiohazard: Capital A: Can we all just admit that this show has become a convoluted mess? I really liked Matt Smith's first series but it's been all downhill after that for me.

Apparently we can't, since I really like the show and where it's gone. This season has been really good IMHO, and Matt Smith might be my favorite Doctor at this point. I'm looking forward to more.

/been watching since the early 80's
//not afraid of change


I like the fact that the show is actually tackling the problem with time itself.  And not chasing actors in lizard costumes every week.
 
2013-05-20 08:46:35 PM  

gingerjet: And not chasing actors in lizard costumes every week.


Oh, come now...you know that you want some good lizard costume action every once in a while. Zome Zygons (YAY, 50th Anniversary!), a few Silurians, maybe an Axonite?
 
2013-05-20 08:55:19 PM  

AdolfOliverPanties: The only thing that made my brain hurt was my DVR not recording it.  I am trying not to torrent anymore so I finally found it on some website called Woot.  Watched it on there but not in HD and on a smaller video screen


Protip: you can use a service like tunlr, pretend to be British and stream it directly off BBC iPlayer in full HD, legally... well more legally than downloading from a random site. It's put up on the BBC site right after it airs in the UK, so you can even watch before it airs in north America.

The only thing I found really disjoint in the episode was when Clara and the Doctor run off through Rivers tomb through time disturbances and stuff only to "surprise" show up at the entrance, it felt like there was a scene missing in the middle.
 
2013-05-20 08:57:47 PM  

SAN66: The only thing I found really disjoint in the episode was when Clara and the Doctor run off through Rivers tomb through time disturbances and stuff only to "surprise" show up at the entrance, it felt like there was a scene missing in the middle.


First thing: It was the DOCTOR'S tomb. I thought that was clear from all of the times they mentioned it.

Second: I agree. In fact, the first time I watched it, I went back to check that it hadn't in fact skipped.
 
2013-05-20 09:10:14 PM  

PizzaJedi81: SAN66: The only thing I found really disjoint in the episode was when Clara and the Doctor run off through Rivers tomb through time disturbances and stuff only to "surprise" show up at the entrance, it felt like there was a scene missing in the middle.

First thing: It was the DOCTOR'S tomb. I thought that was clear from all of the times they mentioned it.

Second: I agree. In fact, the first time I watched it, I went back to check that it hadn't in fact skipped.


His tomb is the control room, since they arrive on the surface they had to climb up through the TARDIS to get there. GI (with Strax, Vastra, and Jenny) materialized outside the door to the control room.

The web of light is where the console used to be.
 
2013-05-20 09:10:59 PM  
fusillade762: [i41.tinypic.com image 600x338]

Has anyone come with and explanation for this tacky crap? Was it indeed some kind of union thing they had to do (at the end to avoid spoilers in the opening credits)?

Did you read the title of the episode?  Because that might explain a thing or two to you
 
2013-05-20 09:24:47 PM  
"On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the eleventh, when no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer, a Question will be asked, a question that must never, ever be answered."

"Does this make me look fat?"
 
2013-05-20 09:25:09 PM  

WTF Indeed: The Doctor will have as many regeneration as the ad revenue allows.


BBC don't have adverts.
 
2013-05-20 09:40:48 PM  

OtherLittleGuy: "On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the eleventh, when no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer, a Question will be asked, a question that must never, ever be answered."

"Does this make me look fat?"


And the flip side for the ladies..

"Why are you laughing?"
 
2013-05-20 09:44:55 PM  
So, basically the Doctor's name is Lohengrin.

Might explain a lot.
 
2013-05-20 09:49:29 PM  

phalamir: fusillade762: [i41.tinypic.com image 600x338]

Has anyone come with and explanation for this tacky crap? Was it indeed some kind of union thing they had to do (at the end to avoid spoilers in the opening credits)?

Did you read the title of the episode?  Because that might explain a thing or two to you


How does the title explain the ham-handed "Introducing John Hurt" caption?
 
2013-05-20 09:51:54 PM  
The entire conceit that people from different time periods could someone merge their consciousnesses is dodgy enough, but when you throw in the fact that the River that appeared was the River trapped in the Library, it gets even more convoluted. Add to that the idea that The Doctor could still somehow see (and kiss) River at the end and logically the entire thing doesn't make a damn bit of sense

Come on, how hard would it be to write her out of the computer? Fix up her body or clone her a new one, and download her mind back into it. Why didn't she tell everyone? Because "spoilers".
 
2013-05-20 09:55:03 PM  

Flint Ironstag: WTF Indeed: The Doctor will have as many regeneration as the ad revenue allows.

BBC don't have adverts.


BBC America does.
 
2013-05-20 10:07:46 PM  
They definitely hinted that the Doctor has many secrets that must not ever be spoken:

" I have lived a LONG life, and I have seen a *few* things.
I walked away from the last Great Time War.
I marked the passing of the Time Lords.
I saw the *birth* of the universe and I watched as time RAN OUT,
moment by moment, until NOTHING remained - NO TIME, NO SPACE, *JUST ME*!
I walked in universes where the laws of physics were devised by the mind of a *mad* man.
And I've watched universes freeze, and creation *burn* -
I have seen things you WOULDN'T *BELIEVE* AND I HAVE *LOST* THINGS YOU WILL *NEVER* UNDERSTAND -
and I know things. Secrets that must never be told.
*Knowledge* that must NEVER be *SPOKEN*!
KNOWLEDGE THAT WILL MAKE. PARASITE.GODS. *BLAZE*!

SO *COME* ON, THEN!!! TAKE IT!!!! TAKE IT ALL, BABY!!!!!
HAVE IT! YOU. HAVE. IT. ALL!"
 
2013-05-20 10:12:51 PM  

gingerjet: I like the fact that the show is actually tackling the problem with time itself. And not chasing actors in lizard costumes every week.


As if you wouldn't...
i173.photobucket.com
 
2013-05-20 10:19:33 PM  

Gone to Plaid: They definitely hinted that the Doctor has many secrets that must not ever be spoken:

" I have lived a LONG life, and I have seen a *few* things.
I walked away from the last Great Time War.
I marked the passing of the Time Lords.
I saw the *birth* of the universe and I watched as time RAN OUT,
moment by moment, until NOTHING remained - NO TIME, NO SPACE, *JUST ME*!
I walked in universes where the laws of physics were devised by the mind of a *mad* man.
And I've watched universes freeze, and creation *burn* -
I have seen things you WOULDN'T *BELIEVE* AND I HAVE *LOST* THINGS YOU WILL *NEVER* UNDERSTAND -
and I know things. Secrets that must never be told.
*Knowledge* that must NEVER be *SPOKEN*!
KNOWLEDGE THAT WILL MAKE. PARASITE.GODS. *BLAZE*!
SO *COME* ON, THEN!!! TAKE IT!!!! TAKE IT ALL, BABY!!!!!
HAVE IT! YOU. HAVE. IT. ALL!"


I'm not saying that that episode was spectacularly done, but I think that is one of my favorite NuWho episodes, and definitely my favorite Matt Smith moment. It would have been so easy to ruin that, but he made it work. I don't know if it was intentional either, but the fact that he ultimately failed speaks to me as an indication that the Doctor can't rely on his hates, sorrows, and regrets to solve problems. He wins by tapping into hope for the future.

I can only hope that if John Hurt is the Time War Doctor, this idea plays a bigger part.
 
2013-05-20 10:31:25 PM  

Son of Thunder: Come on, how hard would it be to write her out of the computer? Fix up her body or clone her a new one, and download her mind back into it. Why didn't she tell everyone? Because "spoilers".


My theory on Clara was that River was going to use her as a way out of the Library. Not quite sure what I had thought, but it made sense at the time.

Alcohol may have been involved.
 
2013-05-20 10:33:41 PM  

Walker: WTF Indeed: MadSkillz: And yet they did not pick up on the whole thing that a FARKER brought up in a previous thread. That the outfit that John Hurt is wearing on set looks like a super-faded version of the Eighth Doctor's  'promotional' outfit introduced in 2010(which had a pic of Paul McGann in the outfit). A blue leather jacket with those same buttons.

New spinoff

Doctor Who: The Time War

They should make a feature length movie of the Time War. That deserves the big screen treatment it would be so epic.


Let's get it out of the way:  A Time War movie will never be made.

1.  It would have to get the Twilight treatment.  Three movies minimum.

2.  The FX and settings involved would rival anything ever put together in Hollywood.

3.  Considering the target audience...yeah, sadly, this will never be made.

/Hopes that there could be books on it however
 
2013-05-20 10:36:14 PM  

mongbiohazard: Capital A: Can we all just admit that this show has become a convoluted mess? I really liked Matt Smith's first series but it's been all downhill after that for me.

Apparently we can't, since I really like the show and where it's gone. This season has been really good IMHO, and Matt Smith might be my favorite Doctor at this point. I'm looking forward to more.

/been watching since the early 80's
//not afraid of change


Yeah...still am wowed by the ending.  Gonna have to see this again as soon as it's on demand.

/Have BBC America On Demand
//Haters gonna hate
 
2013-05-20 10:41:18 PM  

Rwa2play: Yeah...still am wowed by the ending. Gonna have to see this again as soon as it's on demand.

/Have BBC America On Demand
//Haters gonna hate


I bought the season on Amazon Instant. Worth every penny.
 
2013-05-20 10:56:27 PM  

fusillade762: phalamir: fusillade762: [i41.tinypic.com image 600x338]

Has anyone come with and explanation for this tacky crap? Was it indeed some kind of union thing they had to do (at the end to avoid spoilers in the opening credits)?

Did you read the title of the episode?  Because that might explain a thing or two to you

How does the title explain the ham-handed "Introducing John Hurt" caption?


The episode is "The Name of the Doctor".  The last shot is the name of the Doctor.  I'm not saying it was a particularly good joke, but they delivered on what they promised.
 
2013-05-20 11:18:18 PM  
My theory: John Hurt is playing the McGann Doctor, just aged quite a bit since the TV Movie.

Doctor #8 gone really seriously old.

Which would explain why we never saw McGann in the flashbacky "all the doctors dash past really quickly" bit.
 
2013-05-20 11:34:57 PM  
Has everybody forgotten about the "woman" a the shop who gave Clara the Doctor's phone number?  Presumably Clara would have noticed if it had been another version of Clara herself.  And Paradoxes aside, it was that "woman" who got the whole mess started.
 
2013-05-20 11:36:27 PM  

bloobeary: My theory: John Hurt is playing the McGann Doctor, just aged quite a bit since the TV Movie.

Doctor #8 gone really seriously old.

Which would explain why we never saw McGann in the flashbacky "all the doctors dash past really quickly" bit.


Why not just get McGann? He's not seriously old, but is there a good reason not to use him?
 
2013-05-20 11:36:32 PM  

OhioKnight: Has everybody forgotten about the "woman" a the shop who gave Clara the Doctor's phone number?  Presumably Clara would have noticed if it had been another version of Clara herself.  And Paradoxes aside, it was that "woman" who got the whole mess started.


Betcha it was River, from inside the Library. Largest database ever, she'd probably have that number.
 
2013-05-20 11:38:23 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: He's not seriously old, but is there a good reason not to use him?


He's on holiday in the Lake District.
 
2013-05-20 11:39:16 PM  

Rwa2play: Walker: WTF Indeed: MadSkillz: And yet they did not pick up on the whole thing that a FARKER brought up in a previous thread. That the outfit that John Hurt is wearing on set looks like a super-faded version of the Eighth Doctor's  'promotional' outfit introduced in 2010(which had a pic of Paul McGann in the outfit). A blue leather jacket with those same buttons.

New spinoff

Doctor Who: The Time War

They should make a feature length movie of the Time War. That deserves the big screen treatment it would be so epic.

Let's get it out of the way:  A Time War movie will never be made.

1.  It would have to get the Twilight treatment.  Three movies minimum.

2.  The FX and settings involved would rival anything ever put together in Hollywood.

3.  Considering the target audience...yeah, sadly, this will never be made.

/Hopes that there could be books on it however


I have high hopes for this. Was talking with a friend recently about the show, his 16 y/o daughter walked by, heard the conversation and joined in. If that crowd is getting drawn into it, why not make a high budget movie or 3?

And seeing the rating for this show, just in the UK, why the hell not?
/But I agree. Can only hope.
 
2013-05-20 11:56:06 PM  

phalamir: fusillade762: phalamir: fusillade762: [i41.tinypic.com image 600x338]

Has anyone come with and explanation for this tacky crap? Was it indeed some kind of union thing they had to do (at the end to avoid spoilers in the opening credits)?

Did you read the title of the episode?  Because that might explain a thing or two to you

How does the title explain the ham-handed "Introducing John Hurt" caption?

The episode is "The Name of the Doctor".  The last shot is the name of the Doctor.  I'm not saying it was a particularly good joke, but they delivered on what they promised.


So the name of the Doctor is "John Hurt"?
 
2013-05-20 11:59:16 PM  

fusillade762: phalamir: fusillade762: phalamir: fusillade762: [i41.tinypic.com image 600x338]

Has anyone come with and explanation for this tacky crap? Was it indeed some kind of union thing they had to do (at the end to avoid spoilers in the opening credits)?

Did you read the title of the episode?  Because that might explain a thing or two to you

How does the title explain the ham-handed "Introducing John Hurt" caption?

The episode is "The Name of the Doctor".  The last shot is the name of the Doctor.  I'm not saying it was a particularly good joke, but they delivered on what they promised.

So the name of the Doctor is "John Hurt"?


The name of the Doctor is as follows:

THE DOCTOR

THAT was the point of the episode. His name, to him, is a promise he made, long ago.  His name is who he chooses to be, and he chooses to be the Doctor.
 
2013-05-21 12:10:22 AM  

Gunny Walker: gingerjet: I like the fact that the show is actually tackling the problem with time itself. And not chasing actors in lizard costumes every week.

As if you wouldn't...
[i173.photobucket.com image 400x306]


This is my type of Doctor Who companion:

24.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-05-21 12:11:13 AM  
Interesting that Smith's character doesn't recognize Hurt's character as another incarnation of himself, but the captions couldn't make it any more clear: he IS The Doctor. It's literally canon.

That freeze frame too the audience right out of the fiction of the show, and it better have been done for a better reason than "some people don't know what John Hurt looks like."
 
2013-05-21 12:29:59 AM  
The writer lost me at when he got River's answer to the question "How did you do that?" wrong.
She said "Disgracefully" not "distastefully."
 
2013-05-21 12:32:53 AM  

Ford Perfect: The writer lost me at when he got River's answer to the question "How did you do that?" wrong.
She said "Disgracefully" not "distastefully."


River is always, ALWAYS graceful...but not necessarily tasteful.

I'd taste River, if ya know what I mean, and I think you do.
 
2013-05-21 02:30:38 AM  

poot_rootbeer: and it better have been done for a better reason than "some people don't know what John Hurt looks like."


Timey-wimey, chesty-bursty
 
2013-05-21 02:33:42 AM  

poot_rootbeer: Interesting that Smith's character doesn't recognize Hurt's character as another incarnation of himself, but the captions couldn't make it any more clear: he IS The Doctor. It's literally canon.

That freeze frame too the audience right out of the fiction of the show, and it better have been done for a better reason than "some people don't know what John Hurt looks like."


That was my point as well. Clara asked "Who is that?". Hurt could have simply turned and said "I'm the Doctor". But instead we get a stupid caption. I mean, are there really that many sci-fi fans who DON'T know who John Hurt is??
 
2013-05-21 02:37:31 AM  

fusillade762: I mean, are there really that many sci-fi fans who DON'T know who John Hurt is??


Because it's never happened before:

media.salon.com

Julia Roberts, in Ocean's 11, was billed in the same way.

Maybe it's a joke, maybe it's trolling...either way, it is, quite literally, the most idiotic thing in the world to biatch about.
 
2013-05-21 05:48:11 AM  
PizzaJedi81: Julia Roberts, in Ocean's 11, was billed in the same way.

Maybe it's a joke, maybe it's trolling...either way, it is, quite literally, the most idiotic thing in the world to biatch about.


FTFY. It was the worst part of the episode. It was stupid and deserves to be biatched about if for no other reason than to make sure they don't do it again.
 
2013-05-21 07:17:32 AM  

PizzaJedi81: Maybe it's a joke, maybe it's trolling...either way, it is, quite literally, the most idiotic thing in the world to biatch about.


I can think of dumber things to biatch about. Literally.
 
2013-05-21 07:53:19 AM  

Rwa2play: Let's get it out of the way:  A Time War movie will never be made.


A Time War movie  should never be made.

1) Due to licensing with the BBC, it would have to be out of continuity in the first place, thus could not feed back into the show
2) It would never be as cool as what I imagine.
3) Because they would just end up making it look like Star Wars.

The story of the Time War should involve weapons and ideas that are just incomprehensible to mere mortals. Let's say the Daleks have conquered a planet. In the Time War, how would you unconquer it? Why, you'd go back in time, and erase the Daleks who were part of the invasion force from history. Or you'd seed the planet with superweapons that could be used to pry them off the planet. Or, and this is probably what usually ended up happening- you'd plant an extremely destructive bomb before the planet even forms. It would lie dormant for billions of years, until the Daleks committed their forces to conquering the planet- and then you'd blow up the entire thing.

While these are all interesting ideas that would be great to explore, they are  not the basis of good cinema. Your characters would be fighting a war where they never saw the enemy, where all they did was rewrite history (or undo their enemy's rewrites) so that the actions their enemy took came to naught. You can tell stories against such a backdrop- arguably, that's what "Genesis of the Daleks" was (and fanon holds that as the first battle in the Time War).
 
2013-05-21 07:54:42 AM  

Yotto: PizzaJedi81: Julia Roberts, in Ocean's 11, was billed in the same way.

Maybe it's a joke, maybe it's trolling...either way, it is, quite literally, the most idiotic thing in the world to biatch about.

FTFY. It was the worst part of the episode. It was stupid and deserves to be biatched about if for no other reason than to make sure they don't do it again.


I thought it was quite fun.
 
2013-05-21 07:55:48 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: only if they use the real theme music, not this bastardized shiat they play now... though i would accept the theme from when Tennant was the doctor as well.


Aside from that stupid riff in the opening bars, the current theme is  far closer to what the theme should sound like than the Tennant-era theme. I've never liked the orchestral style theme- the "Doctor Who" theme should never sound like it's being played by instruments- that's what makes the original theme so great. It was hacked together by people armed with nothing more than signal generators and reel-to-reel tape recorders.
 
2013-05-21 08:08:06 AM  
I've always been of the opinion that the whole 12 regenerations thing was an artificial limit imposed by the
Timelords to keep themselves in check.  Back in the original series, in THE FIVE DOCTORS ISTR, they
offered the Master a new course of regenerations if he would do their bidding, and now that they are gone
there is nothing keeping The Doctor from regenerating again and again and again.

Not to mention all the universe resets (there have been at least 3 in the current series) that may also have
reset The Doctor's limit.
 
2013-05-21 08:14:45 AM  

t3knomanser: The story of the Time War should involve weapons and ideas that are just incomprehensible to mere mortals. Let's say the Daleks have conquered a planet. In the Time War, how would you unconquer it? Why, you'd go back in time, and erase the Daleks who were part of the invasion force from history. Or you'd seed the planet with superweapons that could be used to pry them off the planet. Or, and this is probably what usually ended up happening- you'd plant an extremely destructive bomb before the planet even forms. It would lie dormant for billions of years, until the Daleks committed their forces to conquering the planet- and then you'd blow up the entire thing.


You misunderstand storytelling.

The story of the Time War would be the sequence of events which lead up to The Doctor initiating the Moment. The trust, the love, the rivalry and the betrayals. The return of Rasslion, the passion and necessity of engaging in the war in the first place, the leverage over The Doctor as he works and struggles to avoid making the final, awful decision to seal off his own race from the Universe against a background of moribund and corrupt societies.

Stories are personal journeys -- not just slapping one's Sonic Screwdriver on the table and ordering the biatch to gobble it up.

(Well. Depending.)
 
2013-05-21 08:27:26 AM  

PizzaJedi81: OhioKnight: Has everybody forgotten about the "woman" a the shop who gave Clara the Doctor's phone number?  Presumably Clara would have noticed if it had been another version of Clara herself.  And Paradoxes aside, it was that "woman" who got the whole mess started.

Betcha it was River, from inside the Library. Largest database ever, she'd probably have that number.


No. Clara doesn't recognize her on the conference call.
 
2013-05-21 08:30:53 AM  

DjangoStonereaver: Back in the original series, in THE FIVE DOCTORS ISTR, they
offered the Master a new course of regenerations if he would do their bidding


That's assuming they weren't lying to him to get what they wanted from him.

I like the idea of the regeneration limit being a societal construct rather than a physiological limit, but I'm not sure the show will take it that way. Considering the treatment of immortality in 'The Five Doctors', I'm inclined to think bad things happen to a Time Lord who regenerates too many times.
 
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