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(Some Guy)   An examination of all the stuff that made your brain hurt during the Doctor Who season finale   (hobotrashcan.com ) divider line
    More: Cool, Doctor Who, physicians, Rose Tyler, Victorian London, Martha Jones, Jenna-Louise Coleman, exams, Eleventh Doctor  
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3738 clicks; posted to Geek » on 20 May 2013 at 5:36 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-20 04:00:08 PM  
Little did we know that the Doctor's true name was "Sweetie"
 
2013-05-20 04:04:06 PM  
Hey, can we get a spoilers tag for people who have never seen the series but think that one day they might be interested in seeing it but probably not?
 
2013-05-20 04:13:58 PM  
Mulva.
 
2013-05-20 04:29:59 PM  

SockMonkeyHolocaust: Hey, can we get a spoilers tag for people who have never seen the series but think that one day they might be interested in seeing it but probably not?


What he said. Actually I don't really care about spoilers but I've never seen the series but might check it out someday if I'm bedridden with malaria or something and it's the only thing on. So what's his real name?
 
2013-05-20 04:34:57 PM  

Mugato: SockMonkeyHolocaust: Hey, can we get a spoilers tag for people who have never seen the series but think that one day they might be interested in seeing it but probably not?

What he said. Actually I don't really care about spoilers but I've never seen the series but might check it out someday if I'm bedridden with malaria or something and it's the only thing on. So what's his real name?


Archibald Gay-Pants.
 
2013-05-20 04:37:35 PM  
The only thing that made my brain hurt was my DVR not recording it.  I am trying not to torrent anymore so I finally found it on some website called Woot.  Watched it on there but not in HD and on a smaller video screen.

Didn't really expect the Doctor's name to be Delmore.  THAT was unexpected.
 
2013-05-20 05:33:11 PM  
And yet they did not pick up on the whole thing that a FARKER brought up in a previous thread. That the outfit that John Hurt is wearing on set looks like a super-faded version of the Eighth Doctor's  'promotional' outfit introduced in 2010(which had a pic of Paul McGann in the outfit). A blue leather jacket with those same buttons.
 
2013-05-20 05:34:33 PM  
It threw a monkey wrench into everything. Clara has always been there since before the first episode? And could she be seen or not? The first doctor seemed to hear and see her. And how could the River and Doctor kiss if she was just a projection? And that screws up the whole emotional moment of the Doctor's first kiss/Rivers last kiss at her jail cell. I'm just all confused basically.
 
2013-05-20 05:42:51 PM  

MadSkillz: And yet they did not pick up on the whole thing that a FARKER brought up in a previous thread. That the outfit that John Hurt is wearing on set looks like a super-faded version of the Eighth Doctor's  'promotional' outfit introduced in 2010(which had a pic of Paul McGann in the outfit). A blue leather jacket with those same buttons.


New spinoff

Doctor Who: The Time War
 
2013-05-20 05:46:18 PM  
...and yet I'll bet both of the writer's theories on Hurt's character are dead wrong. It's bad enough someone would need the episode spoon fed to them, but when the person doing it didn't understand what they saw, it's both hilarious and sad.
 
2013-05-20 05:48:42 PM  

WTF Indeed: MadSkillz: And yet they did not pick up on the whole thing that a FARKER brought up in a previous thread. That the outfit that John Hurt is wearing on set looks like a super-faded version of the Eighth Doctor's  'promotional' outfit introduced in 2010(which had a pic of Paul McGann in the outfit). A blue leather jacket with those same buttons.

New spinoff

Doctor Who: The Time War


They should make a feature length movie of the Time War. That deserves the big screen treatment it would be so epic.
 
2013-05-20 05:50:24 PM  

Walker: It threw a monkey wrench into everything. Clara has always been there since before the first episode? And could she be seen or not? The first doctor seemed to hear and see her. And how could the River and Doctor kiss if she was just a projection? And that screws up the whole emotional moment of the Doctor's first kiss/Rivers last kiss at her jail cell. I'm just all confused basically.


She's always been there, but as different women, just the same personality and soul, so to speak.  She's the girl who was always there to give that extra suggestion/flash of brilliance that let him win in a pinch.

MadSkillz: And yet they did not pick up on the whole thing that a FARKER brought up in a previous thread. That the outfit that John Hurt is wearing on set looks like a super-faded version of the Eighth Doctor's  'promotional' outfit introduced in 2010(which had a pic of Paul McGann in the outfit). A blue leather jacket with those same buttons.


My guess is hes the one who ended the time war via what amounts to genocide.  Next season could revolve around the doctor finally coming to terms with what he was forced to do during the war.
 
2013-05-20 06:07:39 PM  
I'm guessing that Smith is really the last incarnation of the Doctor. If you put Hurt in between 8 and 9, and count Tennant as regenerating twice since he used up a regeneration in Journey's End, that means 10 to 11 was really the 12th regeneration. This also jibes with Clara only seeing 11 Doctors and the TARDIS still having the same "desktop".

I'm figuring the next season and beyond will involve the Doctor trying to avoid becoming the type of evil demigod that needs to be taken down at Trenzalore, plus a new set of regenerations being his reward if he manages to avoid his fate.
 
2013-05-20 06:09:22 PM  

Antimatter: the one who ended the time war via what amounts to genocide.  Next season could revolve around the doctor finally coming to terms w


I'm really hoping that stuff about the time war will be a nice big flashback in the 50th anniversary.
 
2013-05-20 06:10:27 PM  

Walker: It threw a monkey wrench into everything. Clara has always been there since before the first episode? And could she be seen or not? The first doctor seemed to hear and see her. And how could the River and Doctor kiss if she was just a projection? And that screws up the whole emotional moment of the Doctor's first kiss/Rivers last kiss at her jail cell. I'm just all confused basically.


Yes, she could be seen (as the First Doctor saw her, plus her prior appearances in the season), but presumably, she spent the majority of time undoing stuff the GI did in the background (such as across the way from the Seventh Doctor's literal cliffhanger, but not directly involved in saving him), which is why the Doctor only recently noticed her repeating.

The Doctor kissing River is easy.  As he said, being the only one that could see her, the kiss probably looked really weird to everyone else.  The emotional moment for River for the first kiss/last kiss still makes sense because that River hadn't been to the Library yet, so she couldn't know that there was one final kiss coming for both of them.

John Hurt's Doctor needs to be something new and unmentioned if he's to be the Doctor's greatest secret and shame.  Ending the Time War doesn't work, because despite what he did, the Doctor has never kept his part in it secret.  Hurt as the Valeyard is interesting, but once again, not exactly "greatest secret" material.

I'm still wondering if this is working towards a variation of "the Other" storyline that was to be worked into Classic Who before its cancellation.  I could see Hurt being a pre-first Doctor incarnation that did something horrible yet necessary for the greater good, but bothers him so much that he becomes The Doctor and seeks to make restitution for his crimes.
 
2013-05-20 06:11:45 PM  
I have a tire iron that I wanna use to make Steven Moffat's brain hurt for gypping us out of learning the Doctor's true name after a year of hype.
 
2013-05-20 06:12:49 PM  
In fact, maybe that is how Eleven sacrifices himself in his last story. In order to prevent Trenzalore for happening, he needs to surrender himself to death so he never becomes so corrupt that countless people have to lay down their lives to stop him.
 
2013-05-20 06:16:50 PM  
i41.tinypic.com

Has anyone come with and explanation for this tacky crap? Was it indeed some kind of union thing they had to do (at the end to avoid spoilers in the opening credits)?


WTF Indeed: MadSkillz: And yet they did not pick up on the whole thing that a FARKER brought up in a previous thread. That the outfit that John Hurt is wearing on set looks like a super-faded version of the Eighth Doctor's  'promotional' outfit introduced in 2010(which had a pic of Paul McGann in the outfit). A blue leather jacket with those same buttons.

New spinoff

Doctor Who: The Time War


As someone said in a previous thread: the next spinoff will be "The Victorian Lesbian Lizard Detective Agency".
 
2013-05-20 06:17:27 PM  

TV's Vinnie: I have a tire iron that I wanna use to make Steven Moffat's brain hurt for gypping us out of learning the Doctor's true name after a year of hype.


http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/6050/doctor-whos-name-in-a- to m-baker-episode
 
2013-05-20 06:19:31 PM  
Can we all just admit that this show has become a convoluted mess? I really liked Matt Smith's first series but it's been all downhill after that for me.
 
2013-05-20 06:24:58 PM  
Putting this out there (from another thread):

"Silence will fall when the question is asked"

Silence did fall when River Song answered the question. Vastra herself said it when she talked about how all the star systems were going dark.

"On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the eleventh, when no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer, a Question will be asked, a question that must never, ever be answered."

Fields of Trenzalore ... check.
at the fall of the 11th... 11 turned off the TARDIS' anti-grave and did indeed fall.
when no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer...River was a backup in the Library, not living.
a Question will be asked...Clara, when seeing John Hurt, asked "Who's that?"...the question that must never be answered.
 
2013-05-20 06:27:55 PM  

Capital A: Can we all just admit that this show has become a convoluted mess? I really liked Matt Smith's first series but it's been all downhill after that for me.


Apparently we can't, since I really like the show and where it's gone. This season has been really good IMHO, and Matt Smith might be my favorite Doctor at this point. I'm looking forward to more.

/been watching since the early 80's
//not afraid of change
 
2013-05-20 06:31:08 PM  

Mad_Radhu: I'm guessing that Smith is really the last incarnation of the Doctor. If you put Hurt in between 8 and 9, and count Tennant as regenerating twice since he used up a regeneration in Journey's End, that means 10 to 11 was really the 12th regeneration. This also jibes with Clara only seeing 11 Doctors and the TARDIS still having the same "desktop".

I'm figuring the next season and beyond will involve the Doctor trying to avoid becoming the type of evil demigod that needs to be taken down at Trenzalore, plus a new set of regenerations being his reward if he manages to avoid his fate.


Or...The Doctor, thanks to the fact that the Time Lords can trade, buy and sell regenerations the Doctor may still have twenty or more regenerations remaining.  The fall of the 11th that was mentioned in "The Wedding of River Song" could be that the Doctor died and was unable to regenerate, as seen in the episode "Turn Left".  Stab the Doctor through both hearts, free his head from his neck, vaporize him with a Star Trek style phaser and regeneration won't happen.  So, if he's the evil baddie as suggested he would become in "Trial of a Time Lord" as well as the predicted by the G.I. in "The Name of the Doctor", the Doctor may well be killed by those he suppressed, and killed in a fashion to make sure that he didn't come back.  The only problem with the idea that he's a despot and he is killed in a revolt by those who see him as a dictator is why would they give him a tomb of any sort?  Unless they just chucked his body into the TARDIS and closed the doors.

Also, remember that this is just the future described by the Great Intelligence.  The G.I. could have just given one side of the story, or an abridged story.  Honestly you could argue that the Doctor is just as responsible for every death caused by the Daleks as Davros is, considering that the Doctor had the chance to stop their creation and instead decided on what he considered to be the moral high ground.  For all we know at this point, what the G.I. explained to everyone in "The Name of the Doctor" could be as accurate as saying "On D-Day, U.S. forces stormed a beach in France in order to invade Europe, forcing Hitler to use extreme force to keep the foreign invaders from his lands."
 
2013-05-20 06:37:55 PM  

TV's Vinnie: I have a tire iron that I wanna use to make Steven Moffat's brain hurt for gypping us out of learning the Doctor's true name after a year of hype.


You honestly thought that was going to get answered?  Truthfully, that is the one question that will never get answered because if it does get answered, the show ends.  And honestly, I hope it never gets answered.  Not because I want the show to continue forever, but at this point, no name could be as good as anything we've come up with.

/I say his name was Kuntakente before changing it to Tobi.
 
2013-05-20 06:38:08 PM  

Capital A: Can we all just admit that this show has become a convoluted mess? I really liked Matt Smith's first series but it's been all downhill after that for me.


I like what Moffat is trying to do, I just think he needs a little help or some more polish to it before it will work perfectly. He's lucky Matt Smith is able to carry the whole thing. It would all fail hard without him to hold the thing together, but he does and does it well.
 
2013-05-20 06:44:02 PM  

Great Janitor: Or...The Doctor, thanks to the fact that the Time Lords can trade, buy and sell regenerations the Doctor may still have twenty or more regenerations remaining.


River Song did give the Doctor all of her remaining regenerations.
Also heard that Timelords' regenerations were restored for use in the Time War.
Also heard that while 13 regens is standard for Timelords, that isn't necessarily a hard limit, just a taboo, custom or law that Timelords do not break. It quite possible that without Gallifrey, whatever physical or cultural limitations were placed on regenerations is gone.
 
2013-05-20 06:50:17 PM  

TV's Vinnie: gypping us out of learning the Doctor's true name after a year of hype.


Oh, you weren't paying attention. Such a shame.
 
2013-05-20 06:50:46 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: Great Janitor: Or...The Doctor, thanks to the fact that the Time Lords can trade, buy and sell regenerations the Doctor may still have twenty or more regenerations remaining.

River Song did give the Doctor all of her remaining regenerations.
Also heard that Timelords' regenerations were restored for use in the Time War.
Also heard that while 13 regens is standard for Timelords, that isn't necessarily a hard limit, just a taboo, custom or law that Timelords do not break. It quite possible that without Gallifrey, whatever physical or cultural limitations were placed on regenerations is gone.


Wait a minute...didn't the regeneration limit get withdrawn in the Sarah Jane Adventures?  It would make sense that the Time Lords would take off any limits they had to destroy the Daleks.  Especially if it means a race that could take a fatal hit, regenerate, and keep coming back.

Besides, the regeneration 'limit' was being broken as early as 'The Five Doctors.'  Remember when the Master's reward for getting the Doctor out of the Death Zone was 'a whole new regenerative cycle?'
 
2013-05-20 06:51:43 PM  

t3knomanser: TV's Vinnie: gypping us out of learning the Doctor's true name after a year of hype.

Oh, you weren't paying attention. Such a shame.


Well, the Doctor did say that 'The Doctor' was his name.  He chose it.  What he was called before simply doesn't matter.
 
2013-05-20 06:53:15 PM  

Guntram Shatterhand: He chose it.


And, as messy as the episodes lately have been, that was the clear shining beacon of "THIS IS THE FACKING POINT OF THE STORY". If you missed that, you got terribly distracted.
 
2013-05-20 06:54:53 PM  
The Doctor's number of regenerations isn't really worth arguing about. A different number for how many times he can regen has been stated on multiple occasions. Ranging from around 7 (I think) to over five hundred. Plus instances where he gained more regnerations, such as River sacrificing her remaining regens to save the Matt Smith Doctor's current form. Also, we have no real evidence that the so called 12 regenerations is a physical limit. It could very well be just a Gallifreyan law of some sort that can't be enforced anymore due to the Time War.

So it's likely, even if we only acknowledge the context of what we know about The Doctor thus far, that he can regenerate as many times as he needs to. Or in the very least he can regen enough times as to make having an upper limit a moot point.

As for John Hurt, my money's on the theory that he's the true 9th Doctor, and the subsequent regenerations just pretend he doesn't exist out of shame.
 
2013-05-20 06:56:00 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: Great Janitor: Or...The Doctor, thanks to the fact that the Time Lords can trade, buy and sell regenerations the Doctor may still have twenty or more regenerations remaining.

River Song did give the Doctor all of her remaining regenerations.
Also heard that Timelords' regenerations were restored for use in the Time War.
Also heard that while 13 regens is standard for Timelords, that isn't necessarily a hard limit, just a taboo, custom or law that Timelords do not break. It quite possible that without Gallifrey, whatever physical or cultural limitations were placed on regenerations is gone.


In Classic Who, the Master was always after the Doctor's remaining lives, all the way up to the 8th Doctor movie.  In that movie, the voice over explains that Time Lords are limited to 13 lives and that the Master had used up his, but the Master doesn't play by the rules.  And after being cremated via execution, the Master regenerates into a (from what I read on another site) Skaro Serpent and hijacks a human body.  This makes regeneration a bit more muddled.  If there is no limit, just some taboo, then why would the Master, a renegade Time Lord, seek out to steal regenerations?  And how was he able to regenerate in the Who movie if he had been reduced to ash?  "Turn Left" has the Doctor drowning and unable to regenerate but the Master can pull it off without a body???  Hell, even in that movie its explained that the Doctor almost died because the drugs used almost inhibited the regeneration process.  Die during heart surgery: possibly no regeneration.  Killed and cremated and locked in a box: regeneration into nothing higher than a snake.
 
2013-05-20 06:59:23 PM  

Guntram Shatterhand: Wait a minute...didn't the regeneration limit get withdrawn in the Sarah Jane Adventures? It would make sense that the Time Lords would take off any limits they had to destroy the Daleks. Especially if it means a race that could take a fatal hit, regenerate, and keep coming back.

Besides, the regeneration 'limit' was being broken as early as 'The Five Doctors.' Remember when the Master's reward for getting the Doctor out of the Death Zone was 'a whole new regenerative cycle?'


Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: It's never said, to my knowledge, just what the exact limitation on regens is, just that there are ways around it. River was able to give up all of her regenerations, which would suggest there's a hard limit for how many you can "carry" at a time that can be recharged via some action.
Perhaps it's a process like exposing yourself to the Eye of Harmony or the Untempered Schism again. Your average Joe Sixpack Timelord will probably never have access to it outside of major events like the Time War, but big players like the Doctor (or Valeyard) and the Master can get special permission.
 
2013-05-20 07:01:12 PM  
Honestly though, I didn't see that coming at all.  What with John Hurt playing future Khan and all.
 
2013-05-20 07:01:24 PM  
The Doctor explains that the name you give yourself is a promise that you make to yourself.  Considering that, I've been going through Fark threads and viewing people's Fark handles as that same sort of promise.  Fark threads now amuse me more than ever now that I view the handles as promises that person has made and not just clever or funny names.

/mine's broken.  Haven't touched a mop in over 5 years.
//wife's OCD...
 
2013-05-20 07:03:20 PM  
Another fan theory I've heard being kicked around is that John Hurt is a way for the BBC to retcon the 8th Doctor movie. Apparently Fox owns the rights to that Doctor and all his exploits, so the BBC can't use him or his story if they ever wanted to go back to the Time War. By introducing John Hurt they have a way to nix the movie entirely.

But, it's just a fan rumor, so who the hell knows.
 
2013-05-20 07:07:30 PM  

Great Janitor: In Classic Who, the Master was always after the Doctor's remaining lives, all the way up to the 8th Doctor movie. In that movie, the voice over explains that Time Lords are limited to 13 lives and that the Master had used up his, but the Master doesn't play by the rules. And after being cremated via execution, the Master regenerates into a (from what I read on another site) Skaro Serpent and hijacks a human body. This makes regeneration a bit more muddled. If there is no limit, just some taboo, then why would the Master, a renegade Time Lord, seek out to steal regenerations? And how was he able to regenerate in the Who movie if he had been reduced to ash? "Turn Left" has the Doctor drowning and unable to regenerate but the Master can pull it off without a body??? Hell, even in that movie its explained that the Doctor almost died because the drugs used almost inhibited the regeneration process. Die during heart surgery: possibly no regeneration. Killed and cremated and locked in a box: regeneration into nothing higher than a snake.


Good point about the Master being after the Regens. It's been a while since I saw that, and since River is fresh in my mind, didn't want to say there was strictly a hard limit based on how many a TARDIS sex baby had.

Though in speaking about River again, she used all of her regenerations to heal the Doctor from something his own regeneration wasn't capable of fixing.

It's possible that because the Master is a renegade, he's able to utilize regens in other ways than the way we've seen the Doctor do it. In NuWho, he came back with superpowers that one time. It would be nice to have a more concrete explanation, but perhaps the Master's methods let him survive longer and more, but come with other, higher prices than just switching bodies and personalities.
 
2013-05-20 07:09:30 PM  

Esroc: Apparently Fox owns the rights to that Doctor and all his exploits, so the BBC can't use him or his story if they ever wanted to go back to the Time War. By introducing John Hurt they have a way to nix the movie entirely.


I doubt that. The TV movie was a joint production. The BBC wasn't surrendering anything to Fox, just sharing things.

Esroc: The Doctor's number of regenerations isn't really worth arguing about.


More important: it's not worth dealing with in the series. None of the NuWho fans know shiat about regeneration limits. None of the oldWho fans have opinions which matter (I'm in the latter category, BTW).
 
2013-05-20 07:09:38 PM  
The Doctor's name is D'Brickashaw.
 
2013-05-20 07:11:50 PM  
The Doctor will have as many regeneration as the ad revenue allows.
 
2013-05-20 07:12:13 PM  
I hope that whatever the John Hurt Doctor did to go against the name is more than just wiping out the Daleks and Timelords. The Doctor has never made it a secret that he was responsible for their deaths and while he feels guilty he knew it had to be done otherwise all of Time would be destroyed. Also, the Doctor still doesn't have huge reservations about wiping out entire races. He's wiped out the Daleks who knows how many times, same with the Cybermen, and if other bad guys get in his way and do not go with the peaceful alternative, he will kill them or at least put them in a situation that leaves them dead or stuck in time.

Whatever this Doctor has done would need to be not only destructive but also selfish and for the Doctor's own personal interests. This Doctor would also need to know some kind of secret that could wipe out civilizations otherwise keeping this Doctor a secret would mean nothing. He must have terrible knowledge that if anyone found out about it they could use it.
 
2013-05-20 07:14:03 PM  

Esroc: Another fan theory I've heard being kicked around is that John Hurt is a way for the BBC to retcon the 8th Doctor movie. Apparently Fox owns the rights to that Doctor and all his exploits, so the BBC can't use him or his story if they ever wanted to go back to the Time War. By introducing John Hurt they have a way to nix the movie entirely.

But, it's just a fan rumor, so who the hell knows.


It sort of makes sense, even from a story point of view.
I saw it said that Hurt Doctor could have been from the Time War, Doctor 8.5, who in the interest of peace and sanity, used The Moment to lock the Time War forever, destroying the Timelords in the process. This in-universe retconn potentially erased him entirely, leaving him back as 8 or forcing him into 9, with the paradox of him having escaped the Time Lock meaning 8.5 never really existed, but the Doctor still has memories of it and it's a part of his time tunnel.
 
2013-05-20 07:14:04 PM  

Esroc: Another fan theory I've heard being kicked around is that John Hurt is a way for the BBC to retcon the 8th Doctor movie. Apparently Fox owns the rights to that Doctor and all his exploits, so the BBC can't use him or his story if they ever wanted to go back to the Time War. By introducing John Hurt they have a way to nix the movie entirely.

But, it's just a fan rumor, so who the hell knows.


Well, since they've shown McGann's face in Who several (ok, once or twice) times, I'm not sure about that.

Also, according to Wikipedia: "Fox did not exercise its option to pick up the series and Universal could not find another network interested in airing a new Doctor Who series. Thus no new series was produced until 2005, after all the contractual rights had returned to the BBC, and the movie became McGann's only televised appearance as the Eighth Doctor."
 
2013-05-20 07:17:51 PM  
John Hurt is obviously the version of the Doctor that fought in the Time War because it would explain why only Tennent and Eccleston were asked to come back for the special since none of the previous Doctors would have any connection to the John Hurt Doctor.
 
2013-05-20 07:19:19 PM  

ActionJoe: Also, the Doctor still doesn't have huge reservations about wiping out entire races.


He always gives them the choice to give up and change their ways. The Daleks give him pause in NuWho's "Dalek" and "Daleks Take Manhattan". The ending monologue from "Human Nature" kind of makes it apparent how fearsome he could be if he wanted to, but makes the conscious choice not to.

Maybe Hurt Doctor didn't give someone the choice to repent, and that is his sin.
 
2013-05-20 07:25:21 PM  

ActionJoe: I hope that whatever the John Hurt Doctor did to go against the name is more than just wiping out the Daleks and Timelords. The Doctor has never made it a secret that he was responsible for their deaths and while he feels guilty he knew it had to be done otherwise all of Time would be destroyed. Also, the Doctor still doesn't have huge reservations about wiping out entire races. He's wiped out the Daleks who knows how many times, same with the Cybermen, and if other bad guys get in his way and do not go with the peaceful alternative, he will kill them or at least put them in a situation that leaves them dead or stuck in time.

Whatever this Doctor has done would need to be not only destructive but also selfish and for the Doctor's own personal interests. This Doctor would also need to know some kind of secret that could wipe out civilizations otherwise keeping this Doctor a secret would mean nothing. He must have terrible knowledge that if anyone found out about it they could use it.


It would make sense that what the John Hurt Doctor did that was so bad the Doctor refuses to acknowledge him but that Doctor stands seemingly justified in what he did, and not just wiping out the Daleks and Time Lords who were seeking to end the Universe, but something worse, knowing that in doing what he was about to do to end the Time War, he was going to kill billions of innocent people in collateral damage.
 
2013-05-20 07:33:33 PM  
I'm pretty sure the island is purgatory, the polar bear ended up there because the black smoke wanted somebody to play poker with, and the Doctor is actually WaaaAAaAaaAAAaaallllt.

when writers get more concerned with the story they aren't telling instead of the one they are, it all comes out to be about the same, at least.
 
2013-05-20 07:41:09 PM  
Here's my question. At the end of the episode when the Doctor gives Clara the leaf when she is lost, he appears to her finally and behind him the spinning white thing that I guess he went through is there, but disappears. Before the doctor went to rescue her he was saying that his timelines were collapsing on itself, yada yada yada. Does that mean that they are both trapped in an earlier/ later timeline of himself?
 
2013-05-20 07:41:49 PM  

ActionJoe: He's wiped out the Daleks who knows how many times


Has he?  I remember when he was on Skaro and had a chance to wipe them out before they ever got started, and he balked at doing it and allowed them to live.
 
2013-05-20 07:42:48 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: The ending monologue from "Human Nature" kind of makes it apparent how fearsome he could be if he wanted to, but makes the conscious choice not to.


That was particularly cruel, but he makes no bones about that having been part of his life. I'm in the camp that believes that Hurt!Doctor (Anybody else think that's a very appropriate designation.), is from BEFORE he statred traveling. It makes a certain amount of sense to me. The limit on regenerations is a convention, not a biological limit. Hartnell was, retroactively I admit, called the FIRST Doctor, and ran away for a reason. Everything SINCE then he's been more or less open about. He makes no bones, even while denying the details, of having wiped out his own people.
 
2013-05-20 07:43:48 PM  

ShawnDoc: and he balked at doing it and allowed them to live.


He didn't so much balk as navel gaze until the moment had passed.

Genesis of the Daleks is a really good Fourth Doctor serial. One of the best.
 
2013-05-20 07:46:19 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: Maybe Hurt Doctor didn't give someone the choice to repent, and that is his sin.


His sin is that he not only killed the Daleks, but also the Timelords and all of those races caught in the crossfire (like the Gelth from The Unquiet Dead).
 
2013-05-20 07:47:51 PM  

PizzaJedi81: That was particularly cruel, but he makes no bones about that having been part of his life. I'm in the camp that believes that Hurt!Doctor (Anybody else think that's a very appropriate designation.), is from BEFORE he statred traveling. It makes a certain amount of sense to me. The limit on regenerations is a convention, not a biological limit. Hartnell was, retroactively I admit, called the FIRST Doctor, and ran away for a reason. Everything SINCE then he's been more or less open about. He makes no bones, even while denying the details, of having wiped out his own people.


Haven't thought of that.
The Doctor does say he chose his name when he was young, though, after having gazed into the Untempered Schism. I would be skeptical about something coming from earlier in his life, because that seems more or less accounted for. What we don't have is the Doctor's full future, though we know the evil Valeyard is one possibility, nor do we know what happened during the Time War. Both would call back to the old series for the 50th anniversary, but the Time War would really bridge it.
 
2013-05-20 07:51:46 PM  

PizzaJedi81: Sergeant Grumbles: The ending monologue from "Human Nature" kind of makes it apparent how fearsome he could be if he wanted to, but makes the conscious choice not to.

That was particularly cruel, but he makes no bones about that having been part of his life. I'm in the camp that believes that Hurt!Doctor (Anybody else think that's a very appropriate designation.), is from BEFORE he statred traveling. It makes a certain amount of sense to me. The limit on regenerations is a convention, not a biological limit. Hartnell was, retroactively I admit, called the FIRST Doctor, and ran away for a reason. Everything SINCE then he's been more or less open about. He makes no bones, even while denying the details, of having wiped out his own people.


While it's true what everyone says about him owning up to his role in the Time War, a lot of people forget that upon regenerating The Doctor becomes an entirely different person. Their shared memories are intact, but for all intents and purposes they are separate beings. We even see this put on display when the 10th Doctor cries "I don't want to go." when he becomes the 11th.

So it's not entirely implausible that while his later incarnations have more or less accepted what happened during the Time War, that does not mean they must acknowledge the incarnation of themselves that caused the Genocide of their species. It makes perfect sense that the later incarnations would intentionally ignore the version of them that committed these atrocities. Since he was, from a certain perspective, a separate being from themselves.
 
2013-05-20 07:54:31 PM  

Great Janitor: TV's Vinnie: I have a tire iron that I wanna use to make Steven Moffat's brain hurt for gypping us out of learning the Doctor's true name after a year of hype.

You honestly thought that was going to get answered?  Truthfully, that is the one question that will never get answered because if it does get answered, the show ends.  And honestly, I hope it never gets answered.  Not because I want the show to continue forever, but at this point, no name could be as good as anything we've come up with.

/I say his name was Kuntakente Bop She Wop, Son of Sha Na NA

  before changing it to Tobi Peggy Flemming.

FTFM
 
2013-05-20 08:27:06 PM  

mongbiohazard: Capital A: Can we all just admit that this show has become a convoluted mess? I really liked Matt Smith's first series but it's been all downhill after that for me.

Apparently we can't, since I really like the show and where it's gone. This season has been really good IMHO, and Matt Smith might be my favorite Doctor at this point. I'm looking forward to more.

/been watching since the early 80's
//not afraid of change


I like the fact that the show is actually tackling the problem with time itself.  And not chasing actors in lizard costumes every week.
 
2013-05-20 08:46:35 PM  

gingerjet: And not chasing actors in lizard costumes every week.


Oh, come now...you know that you want some good lizard costume action every once in a while. Zome Zygons (YAY, 50th Anniversary!), a few Silurians, maybe an Axonite?
 
2013-05-20 08:55:19 PM  

AdolfOliverPanties: The only thing that made my brain hurt was my DVR not recording it.  I am trying not to torrent anymore so I finally found it on some website called Woot.  Watched it on there but not in HD and on a smaller video screen


Protip: you can use a service like tunlr, pretend to be British and stream it directly off BBC iPlayer in full HD, legally... well more legally than downloading from a random site. It's put up on the BBC site right after it airs in the UK, so you can even watch before it airs in north America.

The only thing I found really disjoint in the episode was when Clara and the Doctor run off through Rivers tomb through time disturbances and stuff only to "surprise" show up at the entrance, it felt like there was a scene missing in the middle.
 
2013-05-20 08:57:47 PM  

SAN66: The only thing I found really disjoint in the episode was when Clara and the Doctor run off through Rivers tomb through time disturbances and stuff only to "surprise" show up at the entrance, it felt like there was a scene missing in the middle.


First thing: It was the DOCTOR'S tomb. I thought that was clear from all of the times they mentioned it.

Second: I agree. In fact, the first time I watched it, I went back to check that it hadn't in fact skipped.
 
2013-05-20 09:10:14 PM  

PizzaJedi81: SAN66: The only thing I found really disjoint in the episode was when Clara and the Doctor run off through Rivers tomb through time disturbances and stuff only to "surprise" show up at the entrance, it felt like there was a scene missing in the middle.

First thing: It was the DOCTOR'S tomb. I thought that was clear from all of the times they mentioned it.

Second: I agree. In fact, the first time I watched it, I went back to check that it hadn't in fact skipped.


His tomb is the control room, since they arrive on the surface they had to climb up through the TARDIS to get there. GI (with Strax, Vastra, and Jenny) materialized outside the door to the control room.

The web of light is where the console used to be.
 
2013-05-20 09:10:59 PM  
fusillade762: [i41.tinypic.com image 600x338]

Has anyone come with and explanation for this tacky crap? Was it indeed some kind of union thing they had to do (at the end to avoid spoilers in the opening credits)?

Did you read the title of the episode?  Because that might explain a thing or two to you
 
2013-05-20 09:24:47 PM  
"On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the eleventh, when no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer, a Question will be asked, a question that must never, ever be answered."

"Does this make me look fat?"
 
2013-05-20 09:25:09 PM  

WTF Indeed: The Doctor will have as many regeneration as the ad revenue allows.


BBC don't have adverts.
 
2013-05-20 09:40:48 PM  

OtherLittleGuy: "On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the eleventh, when no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer, a Question will be asked, a question that must never, ever be answered."

"Does this make me look fat?"


And the flip side for the ladies..

"Why are you laughing?"
 
2013-05-20 09:44:55 PM  
So, basically the Doctor's name is Lohengrin.

Might explain a lot.
 
2013-05-20 09:49:29 PM  

phalamir: fusillade762: [i41.tinypic.com image 600x338]

Has anyone come with and explanation for this tacky crap? Was it indeed some kind of union thing they had to do (at the end to avoid spoilers in the opening credits)?

Did you read the title of the episode?  Because that might explain a thing or two to you


How does the title explain the ham-handed "Introducing John Hurt" caption?
 
2013-05-20 09:51:54 PM  
The entire conceit that people from different time periods could someone merge their consciousnesses is dodgy enough, but when you throw in the fact that the River that appeared was the River trapped in the Library, it gets even more convoluted. Add to that the idea that The Doctor could still somehow see (and kiss) River at the end and logically the entire thing doesn't make a damn bit of sense

Come on, how hard would it be to write her out of the computer? Fix up her body or clone her a new one, and download her mind back into it. Why didn't she tell everyone? Because "spoilers".
 
2013-05-20 09:55:03 PM  

Flint Ironstag: WTF Indeed: The Doctor will have as many regeneration as the ad revenue allows.

BBC don't have adverts.


BBC America does.
 
2013-05-20 10:07:46 PM  
They definitely hinted that the Doctor has many secrets that must not ever be spoken:

" I have lived a LONG life, and I have seen a *few* things.
I walked away from the last Great Time War.
I marked the passing of the Time Lords.
I saw the *birth* of the universe and I watched as time RAN OUT,
moment by moment, until NOTHING remained - NO TIME, NO SPACE, *JUST ME*!
I walked in universes where the laws of physics were devised by the mind of a *mad* man.
And I've watched universes freeze, and creation *burn* -
I have seen things you WOULDN'T *BELIEVE* AND I HAVE *LOST* THINGS YOU WILL *NEVER* UNDERSTAND -
and I know things. Secrets that must never be told.
*Knowledge* that must NEVER be *SPOKEN*!
KNOWLEDGE THAT WILL MAKE. PARASITE.GODS. *BLAZE*!

SO *COME* ON, THEN!!! TAKE IT!!!! TAKE IT ALL, BABY!!!!!
HAVE IT! YOU. HAVE. IT. ALL!"
 
2013-05-20 10:12:51 PM  

gingerjet: I like the fact that the show is actually tackling the problem with time itself. And not chasing actors in lizard costumes every week.


As if you wouldn't...
i173.photobucket.com
 
2013-05-20 10:19:33 PM  

Gone to Plaid: They definitely hinted that the Doctor has many secrets that must not ever be spoken:

" I have lived a LONG life, and I have seen a *few* things.
I walked away from the last Great Time War.
I marked the passing of the Time Lords.
I saw the *birth* of the universe and I watched as time RAN OUT,
moment by moment, until NOTHING remained - NO TIME, NO SPACE, *JUST ME*!
I walked in universes where the laws of physics were devised by the mind of a *mad* man.
And I've watched universes freeze, and creation *burn* -
I have seen things you WOULDN'T *BELIEVE* AND I HAVE *LOST* THINGS YOU WILL *NEVER* UNDERSTAND -
and I know things. Secrets that must never be told.
*Knowledge* that must NEVER be *SPOKEN*!
KNOWLEDGE THAT WILL MAKE. PARASITE.GODS. *BLAZE*!
SO *COME* ON, THEN!!! TAKE IT!!!! TAKE IT ALL, BABY!!!!!
HAVE IT! YOU. HAVE. IT. ALL!"


I'm not saying that that episode was spectacularly done, but I think that is one of my favorite NuWho episodes, and definitely my favorite Matt Smith moment. It would have been so easy to ruin that, but he made it work. I don't know if it was intentional either, but the fact that he ultimately failed speaks to me as an indication that the Doctor can't rely on his hates, sorrows, and regrets to solve problems. He wins by tapping into hope for the future.

I can only hope that if John Hurt is the Time War Doctor, this idea plays a bigger part.
 
2013-05-20 10:31:25 PM  

Son of Thunder: Come on, how hard would it be to write her out of the computer? Fix up her body or clone her a new one, and download her mind back into it. Why didn't she tell everyone? Because "spoilers".


My theory on Clara was that River was going to use her as a way out of the Library. Not quite sure what I had thought, but it made sense at the time.

Alcohol may have been involved.
 
2013-05-20 10:33:41 PM  

Walker: WTF Indeed: MadSkillz: And yet they did not pick up on the whole thing that a FARKER brought up in a previous thread. That the outfit that John Hurt is wearing on set looks like a super-faded version of the Eighth Doctor's  'promotional' outfit introduced in 2010(which had a pic of Paul McGann in the outfit). A blue leather jacket with those same buttons.

New spinoff

Doctor Who: The Time War

They should make a feature length movie of the Time War. That deserves the big screen treatment it would be so epic.


Let's get it out of the way:  A Time War movie will never be made.

1.  It would have to get the Twilight treatment.  Three movies minimum.

2.  The FX and settings involved would rival anything ever put together in Hollywood.

3.  Considering the target audience...yeah, sadly, this will never be made.

/Hopes that there could be books on it however
 
2013-05-20 10:36:14 PM  

mongbiohazard: Capital A: Can we all just admit that this show has become a convoluted mess? I really liked Matt Smith's first series but it's been all downhill after that for me.

Apparently we can't, since I really like the show and where it's gone. This season has been really good IMHO, and Matt Smith might be my favorite Doctor at this point. I'm looking forward to more.

/been watching since the early 80's
//not afraid of change


Yeah...still am wowed by the ending.  Gonna have to see this again as soon as it's on demand.

/Have BBC America On Demand
//Haters gonna hate
 
2013-05-20 10:41:18 PM  

Rwa2play: Yeah...still am wowed by the ending. Gonna have to see this again as soon as it's on demand.

/Have BBC America On Demand
//Haters gonna hate


I bought the season on Amazon Instant. Worth every penny.
 
2013-05-20 10:56:27 PM  

fusillade762: phalamir: fusillade762: [i41.tinypic.com image 600x338]

Has anyone come with and explanation for this tacky crap? Was it indeed some kind of union thing they had to do (at the end to avoid spoilers in the opening credits)?

Did you read the title of the episode?  Because that might explain a thing or two to you

How does the title explain the ham-handed "Introducing John Hurt" caption?


The episode is "The Name of the Doctor".  The last shot is the name of the Doctor.  I'm not saying it was a particularly good joke, but they delivered on what they promised.
 
2013-05-20 11:18:18 PM  
My theory: John Hurt is playing the McGann Doctor, just aged quite a bit since the TV Movie.

Doctor #8 gone really seriously old.

Which would explain why we never saw McGann in the flashbacky "all the doctors dash past really quickly" bit.
 
2013-05-20 11:34:57 PM  
Has everybody forgotten about the "woman" a the shop who gave Clara the Doctor's phone number?  Presumably Clara would have noticed if it had been another version of Clara herself.  And Paradoxes aside, it was that "woman" who got the whole mess started.
 
2013-05-20 11:36:27 PM  

bloobeary: My theory: John Hurt is playing the McGann Doctor, just aged quite a bit since the TV Movie.

Doctor #8 gone really seriously old.

Which would explain why we never saw McGann in the flashbacky "all the doctors dash past really quickly" bit.


Why not just get McGann? He's not seriously old, but is there a good reason not to use him?
 
2013-05-20 11:36:32 PM  

OhioKnight: Has everybody forgotten about the "woman" a the shop who gave Clara the Doctor's phone number?  Presumably Clara would have noticed if it had been another version of Clara herself.  And Paradoxes aside, it was that "woman" who got the whole mess started.


Betcha it was River, from inside the Library. Largest database ever, she'd probably have that number.
 
2013-05-20 11:38:23 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: He's not seriously old, but is there a good reason not to use him?


He's on holiday in the Lake District.
 
2013-05-20 11:39:16 PM  

Rwa2play: Walker: WTF Indeed: MadSkillz: And yet they did not pick up on the whole thing that a FARKER brought up in a previous thread. That the outfit that John Hurt is wearing on set looks like a super-faded version of the Eighth Doctor's  'promotional' outfit introduced in 2010(which had a pic of Paul McGann in the outfit). A blue leather jacket with those same buttons.

New spinoff

Doctor Who: The Time War

They should make a feature length movie of the Time War. That deserves the big screen treatment it would be so epic.

Let's get it out of the way:  A Time War movie will never be made.

1.  It would have to get the Twilight treatment.  Three movies minimum.

2.  The FX and settings involved would rival anything ever put together in Hollywood.

3.  Considering the target audience...yeah, sadly, this will never be made.

/Hopes that there could be books on it however


I have high hopes for this. Was talking with a friend recently about the show, his 16 y/o daughter walked by, heard the conversation and joined in. If that crowd is getting drawn into it, why not make a high budget movie or 3?

And seeing the rating for this show, just in the UK, why the hell not?
/But I agree. Can only hope.
 
2013-05-20 11:56:06 PM  

phalamir: fusillade762: phalamir: fusillade762: [i41.tinypic.com image 600x338]

Has anyone come with and explanation for this tacky crap? Was it indeed some kind of union thing they had to do (at the end to avoid spoilers in the opening credits)?

Did you read the title of the episode?  Because that might explain a thing or two to you

How does the title explain the ham-handed "Introducing John Hurt" caption?

The episode is "The Name of the Doctor".  The last shot is the name of the Doctor.  I'm not saying it was a particularly good joke, but they delivered on what they promised.


So the name of the Doctor is "John Hurt"?
 
2013-05-20 11:59:16 PM  

fusillade762: phalamir: fusillade762: phalamir: fusillade762: [i41.tinypic.com image 600x338]

Has anyone come with and explanation for this tacky crap? Was it indeed some kind of union thing they had to do (at the end to avoid spoilers in the opening credits)?

Did you read the title of the episode?  Because that might explain a thing or two to you

How does the title explain the ham-handed "Introducing John Hurt" caption?

The episode is "The Name of the Doctor".  The last shot is the name of the Doctor.  I'm not saying it was a particularly good joke, but they delivered on what they promised.

So the name of the Doctor is "John Hurt"?


The name of the Doctor is as follows:

THE DOCTOR

THAT was the point of the episode. His name, to him, is a promise he made, long ago.  His name is who he chooses to be, and he chooses to be the Doctor.
 
2013-05-21 12:10:22 AM  

Gunny Walker: gingerjet: I like the fact that the show is actually tackling the problem with time itself. And not chasing actors in lizard costumes every week.

As if you wouldn't...
[i173.photobucket.com image 400x306]


This is my type of Doctor Who companion:

24.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-05-21 12:11:13 AM  
Interesting that Smith's character doesn't recognize Hurt's character as another incarnation of himself, but the captions couldn't make it any more clear: he IS The Doctor. It's literally canon.

That freeze frame too the audience right out of the fiction of the show, and it better have been done for a better reason than "some people don't know what John Hurt looks like."
 
2013-05-21 12:29:59 AM  
The writer lost me at when he got River's answer to the question "How did you do that?" wrong.
She said "Disgracefully" not "distastefully."
 
2013-05-21 12:32:53 AM  

Ford Perfect: The writer lost me at when he got River's answer to the question "How did you do that?" wrong.
She said "Disgracefully" not "distastefully."


River is always, ALWAYS graceful...but not necessarily tasteful.

I'd taste River, if ya know what I mean, and I think you do.
 
2013-05-21 02:30:38 AM  

poot_rootbeer: and it better have been done for a better reason than "some people don't know what John Hurt looks like."


Timey-wimey, chesty-bursty
 
2013-05-21 02:33:42 AM  

poot_rootbeer: Interesting that Smith's character doesn't recognize Hurt's character as another incarnation of himself, but the captions couldn't make it any more clear: he IS The Doctor. It's literally canon.

That freeze frame too the audience right out of the fiction of the show, and it better have been done for a better reason than "some people don't know what John Hurt looks like."


That was my point as well. Clara asked "Who is that?". Hurt could have simply turned and said "I'm the Doctor". But instead we get a stupid caption. I mean, are there really that many sci-fi fans who DON'T know who John Hurt is??
 
2013-05-21 02:37:31 AM  

fusillade762: I mean, are there really that many sci-fi fans who DON'T know who John Hurt is??


Because it's never happened before:

media.salon.com

Julia Roberts, in Ocean's 11, was billed in the same way.

Maybe it's a joke, maybe it's trolling...either way, it is, quite literally, the most idiotic thing in the world to biatch about.
 
2013-05-21 05:48:11 AM  
PizzaJedi81: Julia Roberts, in Ocean's 11, was billed in the same way.

Maybe it's a joke, maybe it's trolling...either way, it is, quite literally, the most idiotic thing in the world to biatch about.


FTFY. It was the worst part of the episode. It was stupid and deserves to be biatched about if for no other reason than to make sure they don't do it again.
 
2013-05-21 06:28:36 AM  

Walker: WTF Indeed: MadSkillz: And yet they did not pick up on the whole thing that a FARKER brought up in a previous thread. That the outfit that John Hurt is wearing on set looks like a super-faded version of the Eighth Doctor's  'promotional' outfit introduced in 2010(which had a pic of Paul McGann in the outfit). A blue leather jacket with those same buttons.

New spinoff

Doctor Who: The Time War

They should make a feature length movie of the Time War. That deserves the big screen treatment it would be so epic.


only if they use the real theme music, not this bastardized shiat they play now... though i would accept the theme from when Tennant was the doctor as well.
 
2013-05-21 07:17:32 AM  

PizzaJedi81: Maybe it's a joke, maybe it's trolling...either way, it is, quite literally, the most idiotic thing in the world to biatch about.


I can think of dumber things to biatch about. Literally.
 
2013-05-21 07:53:19 AM  

Rwa2play: Let's get it out of the way:  A Time War movie will never be made.


A Time War movie  should never be made.

1) Due to licensing with the BBC, it would have to be out of continuity in the first place, thus could not feed back into the show
2) It would never be as cool as what I imagine.
3) Because they would just end up making it look like Star Wars.

The story of the Time War should involve weapons and ideas that are just incomprehensible to mere mortals. Let's say the Daleks have conquered a planet. In the Time War, how would you unconquer it? Why, you'd go back in time, and erase the Daleks who were part of the invasion force from history. Or you'd seed the planet with superweapons that could be used to pry them off the planet. Or, and this is probably what usually ended up happening- you'd plant an extremely destructive bomb before the planet even forms. It would lie dormant for billions of years, until the Daleks committed their forces to conquering the planet- and then you'd blow up the entire thing.

While these are all interesting ideas that would be great to explore, they are  not the basis of good cinema. Your characters would be fighting a war where they never saw the enemy, where all they did was rewrite history (or undo their enemy's rewrites) so that the actions their enemy took came to naught. You can tell stories against such a backdrop- arguably, that's what "Genesis of the Daleks" was (and fanon holds that as the first battle in the Time War).
 
2013-05-21 07:54:42 AM  

Yotto: PizzaJedi81: Julia Roberts, in Ocean's 11, was billed in the same way.

Maybe it's a joke, maybe it's trolling...either way, it is, quite literally, the most idiotic thing in the world to biatch about.

FTFY. It was the worst part of the episode. It was stupid and deserves to be biatched about if for no other reason than to make sure they don't do it again.


I thought it was quite fun.
 
2013-05-21 07:55:48 AM  

HindiDiscoMonster: only if they use the real theme music, not this bastardized shiat they play now... though i would accept the theme from when Tennant was the doctor as well.


Aside from that stupid riff in the opening bars, the current theme is  far closer to what the theme should sound like than the Tennant-era theme. I've never liked the orchestral style theme- the "Doctor Who" theme should never sound like it's being played by instruments- that's what makes the original theme so great. It was hacked together by people armed with nothing more than signal generators and reel-to-reel tape recorders.
 
2013-05-21 08:08:06 AM  
I've always been of the opinion that the whole 12 regenerations thing was an artificial limit imposed by the
Timelords to keep themselves in check.  Back in the original series, in THE FIVE DOCTORS ISTR, they
offered the Master a new course of regenerations if he would do their bidding, and now that they are gone
there is nothing keeping The Doctor from regenerating again and again and again.

Not to mention all the universe resets (there have been at least 3 in the current series) that may also have
reset The Doctor's limit.
 
2013-05-21 08:14:45 AM  

t3knomanser: The story of the Time War should involve weapons and ideas that are just incomprehensible to mere mortals. Let's say the Daleks have conquered a planet. In the Time War, how would you unconquer it? Why, you'd go back in time, and erase the Daleks who were part of the invasion force from history. Or you'd seed the planet with superweapons that could be used to pry them off the planet. Or, and this is probably what usually ended up happening- you'd plant an extremely destructive bomb before the planet even forms. It would lie dormant for billions of years, until the Daleks committed their forces to conquering the planet- and then you'd blow up the entire thing.


You misunderstand storytelling.

The story of the Time War would be the sequence of events which lead up to The Doctor initiating the Moment. The trust, the love, the rivalry and the betrayals. The return of Rasslion, the passion and necessity of engaging in the war in the first place, the leverage over The Doctor as he works and struggles to avoid making the final, awful decision to seal off his own race from the Universe against a background of moribund and corrupt societies.

Stories are personal journeys -- not just slapping one's Sonic Screwdriver on the table and ordering the biatch to gobble it up.

(Well. Depending.)
 
2013-05-21 08:27:26 AM  

PizzaJedi81: OhioKnight: Has everybody forgotten about the "woman" a the shop who gave Clara the Doctor's phone number?  Presumably Clara would have noticed if it had been another version of Clara herself.  And Paradoxes aside, it was that "woman" who got the whole mess started.

Betcha it was River, from inside the Library. Largest database ever, she'd probably have that number.


No. Clara doesn't recognize her on the conference call.
 
2013-05-21 08:30:53 AM  

DjangoStonereaver: Back in the original series, in THE FIVE DOCTORS ISTR, they
offered the Master a new course of regenerations if he would do their bidding


That's assuming they weren't lying to him to get what they wanted from him.

I like the idea of the regeneration limit being a societal construct rather than a physiological limit, but I'm not sure the show will take it that way. Considering the treatment of immortality in 'The Five Doctors', I'm inclined to think bad things happen to a Time Lord who regenerates too many times.
 
2013-05-21 08:33:34 AM  
Obviously spoilers, and the source seems to be an unknown source talking to The Sun, so a massive grain of salt, but this seems to fit better than the theory in the linked article:

http://www.tv3.ie/entertainment_article.php?locID=1.803.813&article= 10 3035
 
2013-05-21 09:02:11 AM  

PartTimeBuddha: The trust, the love, the rivalry and the betrayals.


We don't need to see the Time War to see those- to the contrary, it's far more interesting to see  the effects. Imagine if somebody went back and tried to make a trilogy that was the origin story of a major character like Darth Vader, covering every angstrom of his growth from a promising child, into a Jedi, and eventually into Darth Vader. It'd be terrible, because  everything important was covered with a single line uttered by Obi Wan.

Everything important about the Time War isn't the specific details about what happened.More important: it's  a time war. There should be multiple versions of what happened. History was in chaotic flux. There's one version of the Time War where Rassilon came back. There's another where he didn't. There's only one true fact about the Time War: the Doctor ended it, at great personal cost. The Time War can't, and shouldn't, have a single history. It should be bifurcating chaos that's comprehensible only to a Time Lord. If a human could understand the true horrors of the Time War,  it wouldn't actually be that horrible.
 
2013-05-21 09:11:58 AM  

t3knomanser: We don't need to see the Time War to see those- to the contrary, it's far more interesting to see the effects. Imagine if somebody went back and tried to make a trilogy that was the origin story of a major character like Darth Vader, covering every angstrom of his growth from a promising child, into a Jedi, and eventually into Darth Vader. It'd be terrible, because everything important was covered with a single line uttered by Obi Wan.


Oooh, low blow, sir!

Fortunately, it's a low and wildly inaccurate blow. You're missing out one critical element: doing it exceptionally, atrociously badly.

There's nothing wrong with the idea of a Vader-genesis story. If it hadn't been executed so terribly, it could have been good. Even great. The core problem is that Lucas didn't seem to understand the forces he was dealing with. He swapped out humanity for magic. (Different topic, though.)
 
2013-05-21 09:16:17 AM  

PartTimeBuddha: There's nothing wrong with the idea of a Vader-genesis story


I disagree, deeply. There was nothing to add to the character of Darth Vader. We already knew everything we needed to know. Just like with the Time War. We already know everything important about the Time War. Retreading it is just that- retreading a story we already know. It's not a story that needs to be told. It won't tell us anything new about the Doctor. It won't tell us anything we don't already know about the Time Lords, or the Daleks. It won't even tell us anything we don't already know about the Time War, really- it was horrible, billions died, and the Doctor finished it in the most tragic and drastic way. We knew everything important in 2005.
 
2013-05-21 09:26:16 AM  
I tried to watch Doctor Who after reading so many god damn articles on fark about it. I started with the version with the Doctor & Rose. I must say that after about 6 episodes in I just said fark it, and decided that this show is retarded. Although the sidekicks are hot.
 
2013-05-21 09:30:24 AM  

t3knomanser: PartTimeBuddha: There's nothing wrong with the idea of a Vader-genesis story

I disagree, deeply. There was nothing to add to the character of Darth Vader. We already knew everything we needed to know. Just like with the Time War. We already know everything important about the Time War. Retreading it is just that- retreading a story we already know. It's not a story that needs to be told. It won't tell us anything new about the Doctor. It won't tell us anything we don't already know about the Time Lords, or the Daleks. It won't even tell us anything we don't already know about the Time War, really- it was horrible, billions died, and the Doctor finished it in the most tragic and drastic way. We knew everything important in 2005.


I disagree, deeply with you. A story isn't an historical summary. A story is a process of character interactions and changes.

Let me give a fictitious example: in the TV series, we see The Doctor in various stages of grief, anger, regret etc. That's fine: we note he is in this or that emotional state, we understand and accept it. But as an explanation for the cause of those feelings, saying "Time War dunnit!" is really quite a cop-out because you're left not knowing the specific cost to The Doctor of his actions. It's that lack of specificity which is the problem.

I say: put him through the mill.
 
2013-05-21 09:46:55 AM  

PartTimeBuddha: A story is a process of character interactions and changes.


Which would be absent. We know the character from before the Time War. We know the character after the Time War. The stuff inbetween wouldn't have any flexibility to actually tell a character story- it's stuck on a straight line path from A to B. You can't challenge the Doctor, you can't take anything away from the Doctor, or force him to sacrifice anything, because we already know how it turns out. The character can't have an arc- he has a track. He leaves the station, travels thirty miles, and arrives at the next station.

PartTimeBuddha: left not knowing the specific cost to The Doctor of his actions


While "The End of Time" was a complete mess, it directly contradicts this- we see  exactly what the cost to the Doctor was. We know exactly why he included the Time Lords in his genocide- and as we discover, it wasn't just the vagaries of the battlefield- he destroyed the Time Lords because they had become as evil as the Daleks. We didn't need a Time War focused story to teach us that. Much of Eccleston's run was focused on finding the unexploded bombs left over from that war- and we see how crushed he is when he discovers that he did  not destroy the Daleks, and discovers his sacrifice was in vain.

The story of the Time War has been made perfectly clear. The facts of the events are irrelevant. What the Doctor fought for, what he lost, was communicated far more clearly in "The Empty Child" two parter, when at the end, he dances a little jig and cries out, "EVERYBODY LIVES!" There's so much more in that  one moment than you could do in a thousand movies about the Time War, mostly because Eccleston was probably the best actor to take on the role of the Doctor. But right there, that desperate glee, that gives us all the guilt and anguish the Doctor has suffered. Pile that on with the way he rages in "Dalek", and you've got the entire story of the Time War.

And honestly, at this point? The Time War has become pretty much irrelevant. We're passed the shattered veteran stories, and we've moved on to a Doctor who struggles in a world where he has no anchor, where he has discovered that the terrible things he's done weren't confined to a terrible time in his past- but have become part of who he is. He's dealing with the fact that, if he held himself to the same standards as he holds everyone else, he is his own worst enemy. Which leads me to hope that Hurt!Doctor has nothing to do with the Time War, but instead is the Doctor's future. A looming Darkness that he fears.
 
2013-05-21 09:56:22 AM  
Here's my working theory.   Possible Spoilers.

First of all, we haven't learned the (personal) name of the Doctor.  As 11 says at one point, it's not important. He didn't say his name, and the person who spoke it (River) is "no living creature".  The episode is about the name "The Doctor", and its significance.  As 11 said, "it's a promise"; all of the prior Doctors we've seen have abided by this promise.

Doctor Hurt, on the other hand, was a regeneration of the Doctor between 8 (McGann) and 9 (Eccleston).  He broke that promise, and unworthy of the name "the Doctor".  Part of my evidence for that was Hurt's attire - a mishmash of the outfits both of those two had.  So 11 calls himself 11 because he's the 11th Doctor, but not the 11th regeneration of the Gallifreyan guy that the show has been about all along...   He calls himself the Doctor, but the other regenerations are horrified of what he is/was.  Hence the whole "Doctor" means "Great Warrior" thing in so many episodes.

As an aside, the "Fall of the 11th" is a future (from our point of view) event, not "falling from orbit".
 
2013-05-21 10:08:53 AM  
I'm late to the party, as always.  A few random thoughts:

1)  I think the Hurt Doctor is the first good candidate for the voice that says "Silence will fall" when the TARDIS explodes.
2)  Speaking of, based on this episode I'd say that explosion was an attempt to kill River and the TARDIS in one fell swoop.  After all she's the one who actually says the Doctor's name to save Vastra, Jenny, et al..  And if the TARDIS didn't exist any more it wouldn't have been on Trenzalore.
3)  So what do the Silence have to gain by preventing what happened on Trenzalore?  It's pretty obvious that was their goal.  They didn't want those doors to open for one reason or another.  The only significant thing that happened was three different people entering the Doctor's open time stream:
  a)  The Great Intelligence.  The result of that was the Doctor being erased from history effectively destroying the universe.  Given that the Silence destroyed the universe when the TARDIS exploded it doesn't make any sense that this is what they're trying to prevent.
  b)  Clara.  All she really did was undo the damage done by the GI.  So it's a wash, it doesn't seem like the Silence would gain anything by preventing her from entering.
  c)  The Doctor, who only entered to save Clara.  But at the end of his journey in he encounters the Hurt Doctor.  This, I think, is the most likely scenario the Silence are trying to prevent.  Does something about that encounter cause a future catastrophe?

Wacky and almost definitely wrong theory time: The Hurt Doctor is the sole reason for the Silence's existence, most likely working with them in some capacity at some point.  The Church (the army) was more than willing to work with River and the Doctor during the events of "Time of Angels"/"Flesh and Stone" then the next time we see them in "A Good Man Goes To War" they're out for his blood and talking about some neverending war.  So the Hurt Doctor, 8.5, comes out of the Time War soaked in genocide and decides that, in the interest of peace and sanity, he's going to war with the universe to establish order.  At some point he crosses paths with the Church and every race that locks the Doctor in the Pandorica, they recognize him as the Doctor but don't distinguish that he isn't acting in that name.

It's a messy theory but would also explain why the Doctor has been dedicating himself to efforts to erase that name from history.
 
2013-05-21 10:10:16 AM  

Skwrl: the "Fall of the 11th" is a future (from our point of view) event, not "falling from orbit".


I'd like that to be true, but I think the fall of the TARDIS was the "Fall of the 11th".
 
2013-05-21 10:35:14 AM  

Capital A: Can we all just admit that this show has become a convoluted mess? I really liked Matt Smith's first series but it's been all downhill after that for me.


No because it only takes a moment to understand it. Some people hate moffats time based writing but it adds a really great edge to the show. He uses time more than anyone else. I like it personally because it doesn't make every episode some deus ex machina ending that are usually a staple of this series.

This last series bounced around a lot but it really wasn't nearly as confusing as the previous one (which I thought was the best yet).
 
2013-05-21 10:39:41 AM  

That Reilly Monster: It's a messy theory but would also explain why the Doctor has been dedicating himself to efforts to erase that name from history.


Genuine question - is that what he's been doing?
 
2013-05-21 10:46:55 AM  

PartTimeBuddha: Genuine question - is that what he's been doing?


Yes.  There have been a couple of references to it this season.  The most recent was the Cyber Controller in "Nightmare in Silver".  He also told the Doctor that someone could easily reconstruct the Doctor's history just by examining the shape of the hole he was leaving in history as he deleted stuff.  It seemed to genuinely concern the Doctor that he had overlooked that.
 
2013-05-21 01:59:32 PM  

t3knomanser: HindiDiscoMonster: only if they use the real theme music, not this bastardized shiat they play now... though i would accept the theme from when Tennant was the doctor as well.

Aside from that stupid riff in the opening bars, the current theme is  far closer to what the theme should sound like than the Tennant-era theme. I've never liked the orchestral style theme- the "Doctor Who" theme should never sound like it's being played by instruments- that's what makes the original theme so great. It was hacked together by people armed with nothing more than signal generators and reel-to-reel tape recorders.


Oh I agree; though the theme at the very beginning of the series was a better version.  Yeah there was an orchestra involved, but it was mostly in the background.

The negative?  No middle 8.
 
2013-05-21 02:03:38 PM  

PartTimeBuddha: t3knomanser: The story of the Time War should involve weapons and ideas that are just incomprehensible to mere mortals. Let's say the Daleks have conquered a planet. In the Time War, how would you unconquer it? Why, you'd go back in time, and erase the Daleks who were part of the invasion force from history. Or you'd seed the planet with superweapons that could be used to pry them off the planet. Or, and this is probably what usually ended up happening- you'd plant an extremely destructive bomb before the planet even forms. It would lie dormant for billions of years, until the Daleks committed their forces to conquering the planet- and then you'd blow up the entire thing.

You misunderstand storytelling.

The story of the Time War would be the sequence of events which lead up to The Doctor initiating the Moment. The trust, the love, the rivalry and the betrayals. The return of Rasslion, the passion and necessity of engaging in the war in the first place, the leverage over The Doctor as he works and struggles to avoid making the final, awful decision to seal off his own race from the Universe against a background of moribund and corrupt societies.

Stories are personal journeys -- not just slapping one's Sonic Screwdriver on the table and ordering the biatch to gobble it up.

(Well. Depending.)


I've seen the entire War Games story and lord, that was long and arduous.  A Time War story would be 10 times as long, maybe even longer than the entire "Trial of a Time Lord" season.
 
2013-05-21 02:41:37 PM  

Rwa2play: I've seen the entire War Games story and lord, that was long and arduous.


Well, "The War Games" is an example of "poor execution". It was originally scripted as a 6 episode story. At the last minute, one of the scripts for a different serial fell through, so they extended "The War Games" by four episodes. This led to a great deal of, "The companions get captured and escape and get captured" padding.
 
2013-05-21 02:48:10 PM  

PizzaJedi81: Son of Thunder: Come on, how hard would it be to write her out of the computer? Fix up her body or clone her a new one, and download her mind back into it. Why didn't she tell everyone? Because "spoilers".

My theory on Clara was that River was going to use her as a way out of the Library. Not quite sure what I had thought, but it made sense at the time.

Alcohol may have been involved.


Not that it was intentional (but maybe it was) but I think Clara looks a little like a grown-up version of the girl inside the computer core in Silence/Forest.
 
2013-05-21 03:47:30 PM  

Great Janitor: Sergeant Grumbles: Great Janitor: Or...The Doctor, thanks to the fact that the Time Lords can trade, buy and sell regenerations the Doctor may still have twenty or more regenerations remaining.

River Song did give the Doctor all of her remaining regenerations.
Also heard that Timelords' regenerations were restored for use in the Time War.
Also heard that while 13 regens is standard for Timelords, that isn't necessarily a hard limit, just a taboo, custom or law that Timelords do not break. It quite possible that without Gallifrey, whatever physical or cultural limitations were placed on regenerations is gone.

In Classic Who, the Master was always after the Doctor's remaining lives, all the way up to the 8th Doctor movie.  In that movie, the voice over explains that Time Lords are limited to 13 lives and that the Master had used up his, but the Master doesn't play by the rules.  And after being cremated via execution, the Master regenerates into a (from what I read on another site) Skaro Serpent and hijacks a human body.  This makes regeneration a bit more muddled.  If there is no limit, just some taboo, then why would the Master, a renegade Time Lord, seek out to steal regenerations?  And how was he able to regenerate in the Who movie if he had been reduced to ash?  "Turn Left" has the Doctor drowning and unable to regenerate but the Master can pull it off without a body???  Hell, even in that movie its explained that the Doctor almost died because the drugs used almost inhibited the regeneration process.  Die during heart surgery: possibly no regeneration.  Killed and cremated and locked in a box: regeneration into nothing higher than a snake.


The Master always has a contingency plan. He's always got an exit strategy and a trick up his sleeve. The Doctor is Lucky. The Master is the Trix Rabbit. (Although after he regenerated in the new series he was more like Sonny the Cocoa Puffs Cuckoo.)  The Corsair would therefore be Cap'n Crunch. Possibly Sugar Bear.

Kiler: The Doctor's name is D'Brickashaw.


It's Jerry Dorsey. No, really. ...And he's dead. Or he has a tan. Whichever.

PizzaJedi81: gingerjet: And not chasing actors in lizard costumes every week.

Oh, come now...you know that you want some good lizard costume action every once in a while. Zome Zygons (YAY, 50th Anniversary!), a few Silurians, maybe an Axonite?


There's a certain lizard costume I'd like to see the entirety of. Purely for scientific purposes, you understand. Without all that Victorian brocade and lace in the way she might look like a green version of Mystique. Also, I understand she's got some generously-sized venom sacs.

Son of Thunder: The entire conceit that people from different time periods could someone merge their consciousnesses is dodgy enough, but when you throw in the fact that the River that appeared was the River trapped in the Library, it gets even more convoluted. Add to that the idea that The Doctor could still somehow see (and kiss) River at the end and logically the entire thing doesn't make a damn bit of sense

Come on, how hard would it be to write her out of the computer? Fix up her body or clone her a new one, and download her mind back into it. Why didn't she tell everyone? Because "spoilers".


Exactly. There's a lot more to her than has been told so far. Which leads me to believe she's going to continue appearing, even if Alex Kingston might not.

PizzaJedi81: Son of Thunder: Come on, how hard would it be to write her out of the computer? Fix up her body or clone her a new one, and download her mind back into it. Why didn't she tell everyone? Because "spoilers".

My theory on Clara was that River was going to use her as a way out of the Library. Not quite sure what I had thought, but it made sense at the time.

Alcohol may have been involved.


In the reverse-chronologic way River has of doing things, she's probably done an end-run on her own death and engineered her resurrection after the fact. Hence she's the woman in the shop who gives Clara the number to the TARDIS phone, and she exists on the scene after Clara has gone into the spinny-glowy bramblebush because what did The Doctor do to get the coordinates for Trenzalore? And being in mental contact the way she is, she only disappears because The Doctor needs her to go at that point, not because she's actually letting herself die or be erased or anything.  In fact, I have a theory about River, given the hints and clues that have been dropped along the way throughout the show since she first appeared. I suspect she might be--

--because why else would she--

--title of the story--

--was uploaded into--

--when they spoke--

--parallels her story--

--clearly in love--

--by jumping through time. Makes sense, doesn't it? I guess we'll see if I'm right.

Hmm.. Say, was your Internet connection breaking up just a moment ago? Mine appears to have been. Weird.
 
2013-05-21 05:21:44 PM  
Grotesk:

Like possibly River's upload somehow was able to bring in regeneration energy into the Library PC which healed the little girl/computer who somehow maintains pieces of River's personality due to the upload and grows up to turn into Clara?

/may be too wibbley-wobbly
 
2013-05-22 02:35:35 AM  
Show has weakened with the departure of the Ponds. None of the stand-alone eps have been very good, except maybe the one with dinosaurs on a spaceship. I have not disliked the Clara eps, but they've only been ok.
 
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