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(KWCH Wichita) NewsFlash Supercell with confirmed tornado bearing down on Wichita as severe weather outbreak begins in plains states. Hang tight Tornado Alley farkers, it's gonna be a bumpy evening. LGT live streaming vid   (kwch.com) divider line 613
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7407 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 May 2013 at 6:33 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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2013-05-20 12:39:37 AM  

Shadow Blasko: ds_4815: Oddly enough, the old Fujita (F-scale) actually did go all the way to F12, equivalent to Mach 1. F5 was simply the naturally-assumed extreme end of the spectrum since nothing that would be considered F6 and above had ever been observed.

I think I recall reading (and it has been some time) that the Greensburg Tornado might well have been an F6 if the EF scale had not been in use at that time.


This is the first I've heard the damage in the Greensburg, Kansas tornado compared to "F6" damage--strong F5, yeah, but not F6.  (The ONLY tornado I'd ever seen mentioned--both pre- and post-EF scale--that I've seen storm researchers ha-ha-only-serious describe as a "probable candidate for an F6 tornado if it existed" was the 1997 Jarrell storm, and that's just because the damage in that one WAS so incredibly extreme and "off the scale" for even a strong F5 that it could well have tipped the scale to F6.  It's about the only tornado I've ever read about that literally completely scoured concrete buildings (with bolted foundations that were in turn bolted to bedrock) with two-feet-thick reinforced walls (equivalent to skyscraper construction), scoured the earth to a depth of eighteen inches, and destroyed vehicles (and everything else in its path) to the point that most of the remains that could be found could be delicately described as "chunky salsa" (and twelve cars were demolished to the point that no recognisable parts of them were ever found).)

I have heard the Greensburg tornado WAS pretty severe, but not the real Tornadic Nightmare Fuel that came out of Jarrell.  (Point in question: Greensburg actually had survivors in basements.  There are reliable reports that people were literally blown OUT of the few basements that existed in Jarrell, and even aboveground rooms meant as tornado safe rooms were completely destroyed--the Jarrell tornado is about the only one I'd describe as "completely unsurvivable unless you were underground in a reinforced tornado shelter at least six feet deep"--in other words, less even a tornado safe room in a basement and more of a full-on bomb shelter.)
 
2013-05-20 12:40:52 AM  

Great Porn Dragon: I myself would argue that probably the most dangerous fault system in the US isn't New Madrid or Wabash, though--try the Cascadia fault system along the coast of Washington and British Columbia (that one throws Fukushima/Boxing Day Tsunami level 9.0+ about every three hundred years or so, and is overdue; there's also some VERY real concern that when Cascadia blows (and pretty much wipes Seattle, Bellingham, and Vancouver off the map) that it could trigger ALL the Three Sisters and add Hot Lava Doom along with the Tsunami Doom and Earthquake Doom and Half-Of-Seattle-Sliding-Into-The-Freaking-Pacific-Because-Said-Half-Is -Built-On-Landfill-That-In-A-Quake-Turns-To-The-Consistency-Of-The-Ave rage-Passengers-Liquishiats-During-A-Rotavirus-Fueled-Carnival-Lines-P oop-Cruise Doom).

(That last one, incidentially, is pretty much why everything from about Columbus west is farked when New Madrid and/or the Wabash Fault blows; karst land and areas with lots of rivers tend, shall we say, to liquefy in a good flood; a major earthquake would pretty much turn the Ohio Valley into a big farking jello bowl.)



I agree pretty much, Cascadia Subduction zone is the bigger risk and while it may seem far fetched to some with the volcanoes going off soon after I do seem to remember accounts of similar occurrences near Tokyo with their subduction fault and Mt. Fuji from a 100+ years ago, and you're very correct at least as far as my understanding goes Seattle much like San Francisco has lot's of places built on landfill that can liquidate in quakes. The US would lose some of it's greatest ports and all the high tech companies there.

Granted that is one of the fears of the New Madrid going is that it would sever trade between the eastern and western sections of the country if the bridges went and the Midwest might not be able to use the Mississippi river for some time.
 
2013-05-20 12:45:07 AM  

Shadow Blasko: ds_4815: Oddly enough, the old Fujita (F-scale) actually did go all the way to F12, equivalent to Mach 1. F5 was simply the naturally-assumed extreme end of the spectrum since nothing that would be considered F6 and above had ever been observed.

I think I recall reading (and it has been some time) that the Greensburg Tornado might well have been an F6 if the EF scale had not been in use at that time.


I did not know that I thought even the old Fujita scale only went to 5, and the new EF rating still only goes to 5 it just corresponds more to the destruction seen on the ground than estimated wind speeds by radar,
 
2013-05-20 12:47:39 AM  

Great Porn Dragon: but not the real Tornadic Nightmare Fuel that came out of Jarrell.


There is a part of me that really wishes we had the kind of photography and data transfer tech we have now back in 1974.

There was damage between Mason and Sharonville (Twister #44, the one that hit our farm) that was mindboggling. I know that they considered it a strong F4 when it hit the farm, but I personally know of two houses that were ripped from their foundations, with plumbing physically ripped out of the poured basement, and scoured asphalt. Those were on Sunburst drive less than 1/4 mile from the house.

Hell, our John Deere was thrown more than 3/4 of a mile.. But with the devastation in Xenia and Saylor Park... no one ever came to look. (I wish I had been old enough to remember the actual event, but I was only 1.. but my dad met Dr Fujita [or at least his team] up at WPAFB after the storms.
 
2013-05-20 12:50:27 AM  

Great Porn Dragon: ds_4815: Oddly enough, the old Fujita (F-scale) actually did go all the way to F12, equivalent to Mach 1. F5 was simply the naturally-assumed extreme end of the spectrum since nothing that would be considered F6 and above had ever been observed.

Yup--it was generally considered anything so extreme as to cause F6-level damage couldn't be determined just because F5 damage was that extreme.

To my knowledge, there is really only one tornado I've seen reports on that storm researchers even ha-ha-only-serious have stated "If there were an F6 tornado, these would qualify"--the Jarrell, TX tornado of 1997--and that was due to some pretty extreme reports of damage even for an F5 (cattle dismembered and even reports of cattle being eviscerated by winds, dogs actually skinned by the storm, reports of people being blown from the few basements in houses in that area and of house foundations being partially destroyed, actual full-on soil and sod removal to a depth of 18 inches, even cars being caught being so utterly destroyed that they were completely macerated and ground to small unrecognisable bits and in fact twelve vehicles were never found, such severe destruction of human remains that rescuers initially could not tell the difference between the remains of dead humans and dead animals, and so on).

Even with the extreme levels of damage with the Jarrell tornado (which frankly may well have even been unsurvivable even in a regular basement without a fortified tornado safe room--the Jarrell tornado actually managed to make the Joplin killer tornado look tame in comparison, and had it struck in a major metropolitan area instead of a sparsely populated suburb it would have caused a death toll that would easily exceed the Tri-State Twister and would reach well into the thousands of dead) it ultimately "only" received an F5 rating.  (Again, this is likely because of both Jarrell not being a major metro area AND a general reluctance to rate above F5 (officially encoded in the EF ...


Oh....wow...I hadn't ever heard of that storm and sorta wish I hadn't. woe
: (
 
2013-05-20 12:53:08 AM  

Shadow Blasko: Great Porn Dragon: To my knowledge, there is really only one tornado I've seen reports on that storm researchers even ha-ha-only-serious have stated "If there were an F6 tornado, these would qualify"--the Jarrell, TX tornado of 1997--and that was due to some pretty extreme reports of damage even for an F5 (

And that kills my previous statement of "What if" F6 tornadoes.

Didn't Bridge Creek have 300MPH+ verified wind speeds?


Bridge Creek/Moore (which now that I know what you're talking of... :D) did have a mobile radar (if memory serves me right, one of the early VORTEX missions) indicated speed of 318mph (which, at least according to the old criteria, was RIGHT at the demarcation line between "F5" and "F6").  However, it did get officially rated F5--one reason being (as was noted on storm-related mailinglists at the time) the Fujita scale was generally considered a damage scale, and not a 100% accurate gauge of windspeed.

(Also, an attempt to list this as a world record measurement was shot down because apparently records require wind speeds measured at ground level--the mobile Doppler reading was some 100 feet in the tornado itself, and for obvious reasons an anenometer is not exactly going to survive an F5 tornado. :D)

That storm WAS pretty significant, however, because not only was it the first time wind speeds had been measured in a tornado but it also led to the general tweaks (in the engineering studies that followed) that led to the EF scale (which not only tweaks the speeds downwards but takes into account a lot of engineering info--such as the fact that there is apparently a lot of slipshod-enough construction out there to make homes tornadically vulnerable).

(As an aside--although the Moore tornado was well within F5 levels of damage, the damage was STILL not as severe as Jarrell, TX; among other things, there are records of survival in basements as well as aboveground reinforced "tornado safe rooms".  In fact, arguably the Moore tornado proved that a heavily reinforced "tornado safe room" aboveground DID offer a way to survive even a violent tornado (for anything short of Jarrell, and I'm not sure a lot of underground shelter options would have been survivable), and the survival of a dedicated aboveground "tornado safe room" in Moore has directly led to research and improvements (and now official plans including retrofitting plans) on aboveground tornado shelters in areas where (due to bedrock or high water tables) underground shelters are impossible to build.  At least some of this research is being used to build new aboveground tornado refuges in areas of Dixie Alley that got hit in the Mega Outbreak and suffered large death tolls due to the lack of underground shelter options.)
 
2013-05-20 12:55:56 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: I do seem to remember accounts of similar occurrences near Tokyo with their subduction fault


Have you ever seen The Sinking Of Japan?

Great movie... especially if you like epic nightmare fuel.
 
2013-05-20 12:58:12 AM  

Shadow Blasko: Great Porn Dragon: but not the real Tornadic Nightmare Fuel that came out of Jarrell.

There is a part of me that really wishes we had the kind of photography and data transfer tech we have now back in 1974.

There was damage between Mason and Sharonville (Twister #44, the one that hit our farm) that was mindboggling. I know that they considered it a strong F4 when it hit the farm, but I personally know of two houses that were ripped from their foundations, with plumbing physically ripped out of the poured basement, and scoured asphalt. Those were on Sunburst drive less than 1/4 mile from the house.

Hell, our John Deere was thrown more than 3/4 of a mile.. But with the devastation in Xenia and Saylor Park... no one ever came to look. (I wish I had been old enough to remember the actual event, but I was only 1.. but my dad met Dr Fujita [or at least his team] up at WPAFB after the storms.


Well I know of houses taken completely of their foundations in EF4's but not sure about the scoured concrete. EF4's are unbelievable. I wish I could find my pics of what one did. EF5's are pretty much wipe the Earth clean not much left were it was.
 
2013-05-20 12:59:37 AM  

Shadow Blasko: tinfoil-hat maggie: I do seem to remember accounts of similar occurrences near Tokyo with their subduction fault

Have you ever seen The Sinking Of Japan?

Great movie... especially if you like epic nightmare fuel.


I may have to see if I can find it, hmmmm.
 
2013-05-20 01:01:10 AM  

Great Porn Dragon: (Also, an attempt to list this as a world record measurement was shot down because apparently records require wind speeds measured at ground level--the mobile Doppler reading was some 100 feet in the tornado itself, and for obvious reasons an anenometer is not exactly going to survive an F5 tornado. :D)

That storm WAS pretty significant, however, because not only was it the first time wind speeds had been measured in a tornado but it also led to the general tweaks (in the engineering studies that followed) that led to the EF scale (which not only tweaks the speeds downwards but takes into account a lot of engineering info--such as the fact that there is apparently a lot of slipshod-enough construction out there to make homes tornadically vulnerable).


Nods nods and more nods.

I have read a veritable library on Moore/Bridge Creek, but not so much about Jarrell.

Every time I start reading now it makes me wanna go to school and get back on my career track, which is statistically impossible for me right now, so it just gets depressing.
 
2013-05-20 01:03:03 AM  
The May 3rd 1999 tornado had confirmed windspeeds of 318 mph. Holy freaking god that's fast.
 
2013-05-20 01:03:49 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Shadow Blasko: tinfoil-hat maggie: I do seem to remember accounts of similar occurrences near Tokyo with their subduction fault

Have you ever seen The Sinking Of Japan?

Great movie... especially if you like epic nightmare fuel.

I may have to see if I can find it, hmmmm.


It's on the Youtubes, and other places have it. Subtitles required, but wow .. Great disaster porn.
 
2013-05-20 01:05:25 AM  

7th Son of a 7th Son: The May 3rd 1999 tornado had confirmed windspeeds of 318 mph. Holy freaking god that's fast.


Yep, thats the Bridge Creek/Moore storm we have been talking about.

upload.wikimedia.org

Thats what an EF5 does to your truck.
 
2013-05-20 01:07:13 AM  
Whelp it hit a mobile home park. It ran its course I guess
 
2013-05-20 01:10:44 AM  

Shadow Blasko: Great Porn Dragon: (Also, an attempt to list this as a world record measurement was shot down because apparently records require wind speeds measured at ground level--the mobile Doppler reading was some 100 feet in the tornado itself, and for obvious reasons an anenometer is not exactly going to survive an F5 tornado. :D)

That storm WAS pretty significant, however, because not only was it the first time wind speeds had been measured in a tornado but it also led to the general tweaks (in the engineering studies that followed) that led to the EF scale (which not only tweaks the speeds downwards but takes into account a lot of engineering info--such as the fact that there is apparently a lot of slipshod-enough construction out there to make homes tornadically vulnerable).

Nods nods and more nods.

I have read a veritable library on Moore/Bridge Creek, but not so much about Jarrell.

Every time I start reading now it makes me wanna go to school and get back on my career track, which is statistically impossible for me right now, so it just gets depressing.


Why if you don't mind me asking, although I would love to go into meteorology but really I'm to old to start into that,
 
2013-05-20 01:12:58 AM  

Shadow Blasko: tinfoil-hat maggie: Shadow Blasko: tinfoil-hat maggie: I do seem to remember accounts of similar occurrences near Tokyo with their subduction fault

Have you ever seen The Sinking Of Japan?

Great movie... especially if you like epic nightmare fuel.

I may have to see if I can find it, hmmmm.

It's on the Youtubes, and other places have it. Subtitles required, but wow .. Great disaster porn.


Cool thanks : )
Yes I do love disaster movies even if it is only to see how bad they can be : )
 
2013-05-20 01:15:41 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Shadow Blasko: Great Porn Dragon: (Also, an attempt to list this as a world record measurement was shot down because apparently records require wind speeds measured at ground level--the mobile Doppler reading was some 100 feet in the tornado itself, and for obvious reasons an anenometer is not exactly going to survive an F5 tornado. :D)

That storm WAS pretty significant, however, because not only was it the first time wind speeds had been measured in a tornado but it also led to the general tweaks (in the engineering studies that followed) that led to the EF scale (which not only tweaks the speeds downwards but takes into account a lot of engineering info--such as the fact that there is apparently a lot of slipshod-enough construction out there to make homes tornadically vulnerable).

Nods nods and more nods.

I have read a veritable library on Moore/Bridge Creek, but not so much about Jarrell.

Every time I start reading now it makes me wanna go to school and get back on my career track, which is statistically impossible for me right now, so it just gets depressing.

Why if you don't mind me asking, although I would love to go into meteorology but really I'm to old to start into that,


I'm 40, I have $200,000 in medical debt, and I'm jobless again since my last contract completed with GE.

Right now I'm barely able to secure basic "food/place to sleep/clothing" essentials.

Unless I win the lottery (which, you know.. I cant afford to play) a 6 year degree in Emergency Management  systems/Information Management is a non-starter
 
2013-05-20 01:16:50 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Shadow Blasko: ds_4815: Oddly enough, the old Fujita (F-scale) actually did go all the way to F12, equivalent to Mach 1. F5 was simply the naturally-assumed extreme end of the spectrum since nothing that would be considered F6 and above had ever been observed.

I think I recall reading (and it has been some time) that the Greensburg Tornado might well have been an F6 if the EF scale had not been in use at that time.

I did not know that I thought even the old Fujita scale only went to 5, and the new EF rating still only goes to 5 it just corresponds more to the destruction seen on the ground than estimated wind speeds by radar,


There's some rather interesting history re the (old) Fujita scale, and why we use the new EF scale (which actually is quite a bit more accurate)...

The old F scale, interestingly, was not originally developed at all for storms but (seriously) for measurement of damage from nuclear blast; the original version pretty much treated it as an extension of the Beaufort scale up to Mach 1.  The 1974 Super Outbreak was really the first time the Fujita scale had been used for civilian use in measuring general (non-blast-related) wind damage.  (It also went in theory all the way up to F12, but it was generally assumed that you'd never actually see anything beyond F5 levels of damage in something not involving Nuclear Farking Weapons.  Jarrell, TX is about the closest we've seen to where a tornado has tried its very, very best to keep up with the amount of destruction the blast from an A-bomb or H-bomb can cause.)

Around the time of the Moore tornado (and after a few other measurements not focusing on tornadoes--including, notably, Hurricane Andrew (which around that time was recognised as being actually a Category 5 hurricane instead of a Category 4--it actually got formally reclassified a few years back), some of the initial VORTEX Mobile Doppler measurements, and Cyclone Olivia in Australia which had a recorded wind gust well into modern EF4 range) it was beginning to be recognised that there were two flaws in the Fujita scale.

One was that (even accounting for the Well Constructed Homes that the Fujita scale made a VERY big assumption about) wind speeds tended to be overestimated by 30 to 40 percent (it turned out that it didn't require as high of wind speeds as we thought to cause "F4" and "F5" levels of damage).

The other flaw was...well...to put it bluntly, "Well Constructed Homes" of the type assumed by the original Fujita scale tend to be surprisingly uncommon.  It turns out that a lot of homes tended to have substandard construction in one way or another--weak bolts on the foundation, roof built without hurricane straps in high wind regions, cheap crappy wood in frame construction, and so on.

So after a lot of engineering studies and more research (both in wind tunnels and "in the field" including more mobile Doppler measurements and comparison with other types of wind damage in Category 4 and Category 5 hurricanes and the like), in 2007 we got the Enhanced Fujita Scale which not only tends to knock the wind speeds down but takes a lot more construction factors into account.  (Among other things, it does pretty expressly take into account that sometimes you will have crappy construction that makes a home more vulnerable to tornado damage, and includes factors to "tweak" for that instead of just treating all frame houses equally.  This is one reason why the EF scale is not directly comparable to the old F scale.)

They also pretty much (since this was more of a derivative scale and not a "How Good Does The H-Bomb Blow Shiat Up" scale adapted to measure "How Much The Tornado Farked Shiat Up"--more an explicitly designed "How Much The Tornado Farked Shiat Up When Accounting For Cheap-Ass Construction" scale) did away with anything above "EF-5"--partly because it was seen as Completely Irrelevant as nothing had EVER been classified "F6" that had Not Involved Nuclear Farking Weapons, and partly to establish a sense of parity with the Saffir-Simpson scale we use for measuring hurricane winds.

Cliff's Notes version: There used to be an F6-F12, but it never has been used in civvie use of the Fujita Scale (which actually was developed to measure destructiveness of one of the few things scarier than a violent tornado--unless the tornado hits the nuke plant, you don't usually have to worry about radiation sickness from a tornado).  When we fixed what we found was broken with the Fujita Scale, we just set five levels to it as that's all we'd ever used and it also fits well with the hurricane scale we use now.
 
2013-05-20 01:18:39 AM  

Shadow Blasko: 7th Son of a 7th Son: The May 3rd 1999 tornado had confirmed windspeeds of 318 mph. Holy freaking god that's fast.

Yep, thats the Bridge Creek/Moore storm we have been talking about.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 600x450]

Thats what an EF5 does to your truck.


and now I see what I said was previously mentioned. :( I really should go to bed.
 
2013-05-20 01:20:04 AM  

7th Son of a 7th Son: Shadow Blasko: 7th Son of a 7th Son: The May 3rd 1999 tornado had confirmed windspeeds of 318 mph. Holy freaking god that's fast.

Yep, thats the Bridge Creek/Moore storm we have been talking about.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 600x450]

Thats what an EF5 does to your truck.

and now I see what I said was previously mentioned. :( I really should go to bed.


Nah.. its cool! We love it when we get to have fun conversations with people actually interested in the subject matter... v/s TROLLTROLLOLOLOLOBHENGAZIUMBRELLAGATE
 
2013-05-20 01:22:25 AM  

Shadow Blasko: Unless I win the lottery (which, you know.. I cant afford to play) a 6 year degree in Emergency Management systems/Information Management is a non-starter


So you're a typical US American I know the feeling, so am I it's a crazy world. You seem quite smart and social so you shouldn't have problems in the job market, yea, yea there needs to be a market first.
 
2013-05-20 01:24:11 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Shadow Blasko: Unless I win the lottery (which, you know.. I cant afford to play) a 6 year degree in Emergency Management systems/Information Management is a non-starter

So you're a typical US American I know the feeling, so am I it's a crazy world. You seem quite smart and social so you shouldn't have problems in the job market, yea, yea there needs to be a market first.


Its funny, I have worked IT for 14 years, and just moved from Cincy to Columbus, and there are a farkton more jobs up here (at least.. more listings) than there were down there.

Now I just need to get one. For a few months. I'm moving to Florida this winter, so... then I get to start over
 
2013-05-20 01:25:31 AM  

Shadow Blasko: 7th Son of a 7th Son: Shadow Blasko: 7th Son of a 7th Son: The May 3rd 1999 tornado had confirmed windspeeds of 318 mph. Holy freaking god that's fast.

Yep, thats the Bridge Creek/Moore storm we have been talking about.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 600x450]

Thats what an EF5 does to your truck.

and now I see what I said was previously mentioned. :( I really should go to bed.

Nah.. its cool! We love it when we get to have fun conversations with people actually interested in the subject matter... v/s TROLLTROLLOLOLOLOBHENGAZIUMBRELLAGATE


LOL yeah that gets old fast. I've lived in OK all my life. Closest I've been to a tornado was on May 8th 1986. Edmond tornado. I will remember that night forever.
 
2013-05-20 01:26:49 AM  
One can't imagine why the Lord hates Kansans.
 
2013-05-20 01:28:44 AM  

7th Son of a 7th Son: Shadow Blasko: 7th Son of a 7th Son: Shadow Blasko: 7th Son of a 7th Son: The May 3rd 1999 tornado had confirmed windspeeds of 318 mph. Holy freaking god that's fast.

Yep, thats the Bridge Creek/Moore storm we have been talking about.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 600x450]

Thats what an EF5 does to your truck.

and now I see what I said was previously mentioned. :( I really should go to bed.

Nah.. its cool! We love it when we get to have fun conversations with people actually interested in the subject matter... v/s TROLLTROLLOLOLOLOBHENGAZIUMBRELLAGATE

LOL yeah that gets old fast. I've lived in OK all my life. Closest I've been to a tornado was on May 8th 1986. Edmond tornado. I will remember that night forever.


I've been in 7. Two of those before I was 12, and 4 of them on purpose...

Also managed to get my vehicle struck by lightning for the 2nd time last week.. and i wasn't even chasing, i was just driving home!

I was a very amateur chaser in the 90's, trained spotter now, and I just get lucky a bunch.

Growing up in a town that was hit by a F4 it just becomes part of who you are... and you either get scared of it, or you learn to grok it. I did the latter and it kinda set me up for life as one of those weathergeeks
 
2013-05-20 01:34:23 AM  

Shadow Blasko: 7th Son of a 7th Son: Shadow Blasko: 7th Son of a 7th Son: Shadow Blasko: 7th Son of a 7th Son: The May 3rd 1999 tornado had confirmed windspeeds of 318 mph. Holy freaking god that's fast.

Yep, thats the Bridge Creek/Moore storm we have been talking about.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 600x450]

Thats what an EF5 does to your truck.

and now I see what I said was previously mentioned. :( I really should go to bed.

Nah.. its cool! We love it when we get to have fun conversations with people actually interested in the subject matter... v/s TROLLTROLLOLOLOLOBHENGAZIUMBRELLAGATE

LOL yeah that gets old fast. I've lived in OK all my life. Closest I've been to a tornado was on May 8th 1986. Edmond tornado. I will remember that night forever.

I've been in 7. Two of those before I was 12, and 4 of them on purpose...

Also managed to get my vehicle struck by lightning for the 2nd time last week.. and i wasn't even chasing, i was just driving home!

I was a very amateur chaser in the 90's, trained spotter now, and I just get lucky a bunch.

Growing up in a town that was hit by a F4 it just becomes part of who you are... and you either get scared of it, or you learn to grok it. I did the latter and it kinda set me up for life as one of those weathergeeks


I grew up in OKC/Edmond and I really wanted to be a storm chaser when I was a kid. Even went to one of "Those Terrible Twisters" shows with Gary England. Used to ride along with some amateur chasers around 2001 but never saw anything.
 
2013-05-20 01:34:27 AM  

Great Porn Dragon: tinfoil-hat maggie: Shadow Blasko: ds_4815: Oddly enough, the old Fujita (F-scale) actually did go all the way to F12, equivalent to Mach 1. F5 was simply the naturally-assumed extreme end of the spectrum since nothing that would be considered F6 and above had ever been observed.

I think I recall reading (and it has been some time) that the Greensburg Tornado might well have been an F6 if the EF scale had not been in use at that time.

I did not know that I thought even the old Fujita scale only went to 5, and the new EF rating still only goes to 5 it just corresponds more to the destruction seen on the ground than estimated wind speeds by radar,

There's some rather interesting history re the (old) Fujita scale, and why we use the new EF scale (which actually is quite a bit more accurate)...

The old F scale, interestingly, was not originally developed at all for storms but (seriously) for measurement of damage from nuclear blast; the original version pretty much treated it as an extension of the Beaufort scale up to Mach 1.  The 1974 Super Outbreak was really the first time the Fujita scale had been used for civilian use in measuring general (non-blast-related) wind damage.  (It also went in theory all the way up to F12, but it was generally assumed that you'd never actually see anything beyond F5 levels of damage in something not involving Nuclear Farking Weapons.  Jarrell, TX is about the closest we've seen to where a tornado has tried its very, very best to keep up with the amount of destruction the blast from an A-bomb or H-bomb can cause.)

Around the time of the Moore tornado (and after a few other measurements not focusing on tornadoes--including, notably, Hurricane Andrew (which around that time was recognised as being actually a Category 5 hurricane instead of a Category 4--it actually got formally reclassified a few years back), some of the initial VORTEX Mobile Doppler measurements, and Cyclone Olivia in Australia which had a recorded wind gust well in ...


Wow, I learned something today, storta makes sense even though my brain want's to rebel against the idea, I mean in a nuke I wanna believe it's all straight line winds even with reading survivors reports about fire tornadoes and realizing winds don't always travel in straight lines.
/Sad story bro
 
2013-05-20 01:35:44 AM  

BuckTurgidson: One can't imagine why the Lord hates Kansans.


The Lord of what?
 
2013-05-20 01:36:29 AM  

7th Son of a 7th Son: The May 3rd 1999 tornado had confirmed windspeeds of 318 mph. Holy freaking god that's fast.


As Shadow Blasko noted, yup, that's the Moore tornado (under the old "F scale" criteria, the wind speed was on the border between F5 and F6--it ended up being classified F5 because we did (and still do) rely on actual damage rather than mobile Doppler measurement for classification because mobile Doppler is still pretty much an experimental research tool with some amount of error, possibly overestimating a wee bit).

And yes, it was the first time we'd gotten to measure winds in a tornado (100 feet up in the tornado, but the fact it was done at all was historic).  Actually remember when the first announcements on the success came out in WX-TALK and WX-CHASE, as they really pretty much got the plum out of the pie with that one :D

Nightmare fuel for you: The Moore tornado of 1999 is generally considered to be a strong F5 (and would probably have fit under modern EF5 criteria as well--interestingly, it was some of the engineering studies that came out re homes damaged and destroyed in Moore that showed that "Well Constructed" buildings tend to be anything but), but it was survivable in a basement, and (again, of historic note) the first known occurrence of someone surviving a confirmed strong F5 tornado in an aboveground shelter was with a person who had built a "tornado closet" out of reinforced concrete with steel doors and bolted to its foundation (the house was utterly obliterated but the "tornado closet" and its elderly occupant survived)--suffice it to say that this has led to a lot of research and development on aboveground tornado refuge rooms being a real possibility in places like Dixie Alley or parts of Texas where underground shelters are impossible to build.

In Jarrell, TX (a tornado where the same folks who classified the Moore tornado as "strong F5" have noted "If we actually used the 'F6' classification, this may be the only tornado on record that meets that criteria")...an aboveground shelter arguably built even tougher than the tornado-closet that survived a direct hit by the Moore F5...was completely and utterly obliterated, razed, and its occupants dismembered.  People who had basements (most of the subdivision that got hit was built on bedrock and its foundations bolted to the bedrock) got literally sucked out and dismembered.  The farking thing sucked the trees, grass, and everything else to a depth of eighteen inches and so utterly and completely destroyed twelve cars that they never found identifiable parts of those cars...not even engine blocks survived (and usually an F5 would throw cars, might wrap them around a tree like a demented Maypole, but usually an F5 doesn't farking turn cars into very sharp confetti).  I have to agree with the likes of Chuck Doswell that if any tornado deserved to have been classified as an F6, Jarrell did...the ONLY good thing that can be said about that particular bit of whirlydoom is that it didn't hit Dallas, Texas in the middle of afternoon rush hour and pile up a body count that would have quite possibly made Bangladeshis go "Oh, shiat" :P

(Bangladesh, in case you're curious, is about the only place in the world that has the level of tornadogenesis that exists in the Tornado Alleys in the US.  They also pretty routinely get hundreds of people killed in a single tornado (because things like "tornado warnings" and "tornado shelters" just do not exist in Bangladesh) and at least one tornado has caused over 1300 deaths as recently as 1989.  If the Jarrell tornado had hit in Dallas, it'd easily dwarf that death toll, sadly.)
 
2013-05-20 01:36:49 AM  

Shadow Blasko: tinfoil-hat maggie: Shadow Blasko: Unless I win the lottery (which, you know.. I cant afford to play) a 6 year degree in Emergency Management systems/Information Management is a non-starter

So you're a typical US American I know the feeling, so am I it's a crazy world. You seem quite smart and social so you shouldn't have problems in the job market, yea, yea there needs to be a market first.

Its funny, I have worked IT for 14 years, and just moved from Cincy to Columbus, and there are a farkton more jobs up here (at least.. more listings) than there were down there.

Now I just need to get one. For a few months. I'm moving to Florida this winter, so... then I get to start over


Best of luck : )
 
2013-05-20 01:37:23 AM  

7th Son of a 7th Son: I grew up in OKC/Edmond and I really wanted to be a storm chaser when I was a kid. Even went to one of "Those Terrible Twisters" shows with Gary England. Used to ride along with some amateur chasers around 2001 but never saw anything.


I really would have loved to get in with a REAL research team and do some chasing, but ... when it got popular it got stupid and polarized. I can't afford to (or have the education) to run with the big guys, and I simply WON'T make a bad situation worse by running with the commercial guys or the rogues/tornado tourism teams.

I'm glad to say that I was able to do it when it was more dangerous, but less insane.

OMG.. I'M A TORNADO HIPSTER!
 
2013-05-20 01:41:14 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: BuckTurgidson: One can't imagine why the Lord hates Kansans.

The Lord of what?


The Lord of Grace, and of Mercy, and of Brotherhood, and of Love, of course.
 
2013-05-20 01:42:15 AM  
NecoConeco:
This is Colleen Coyle from WFAA in Dallas. She could share my shelter any time.
[i158.photobucket.com image 411x240]


Nice. I suppose part of me should feel guilty that only hot young women are hired, but at least for a few minutes I can pretend 80% of my fellow Americans aren't overweight.
 
2013-05-20 01:43:50 AM  

Great Porn Dragon: (Bangladesh, in case you're curious, is about the only place in the world that has the level of tornadogenesis that exists in the Tornado Alleys in the US. They also pretty routinely get hundreds of people killed in a single tornado (because things like "tornado warnings" and "tornado shelters" just do not exist in Bangladesh) and at least one tornado has caused over 1300 deaths as recently as 1989. If the Jarrell tornado had hit in Dallas, it'd easily dwarf that death toll, sadly.)


I'm so so very terrified of EF4 or shiatting something like Bonnaroo or PENNSIC or a large Renaissance faire (where I spend a lot of weekends) that there is no word for it.

Thats why I really want to see CELLULAR TOWER BASED warning systems embedded in all devices, regardless of network subscription or service level, that can warn people DIRECTLY in the path of a storm in good time.

(Say hello to what would have been my thesis)
 
2013-05-20 01:44:48 AM  

Tom_Slick: UnspokenVoice: Tom_Slick: Aigoo: So, I'm sorry; you were saying about tornadoes and how good we have it?

You are not Mississippi who gets Tornadoes AND Hurricanes or something like that.

/If you want to avoid severe weather move to Maine, lived in northern Maine for 15 years other than the occasional blizzard now big weather problems and you can prepare for for blizzards.

Believe it or not, that was a prime consideration for my retiring here.

Did you retire to Northern Massachusetts Maine or Real Maine?


Real Maine® - Up between Rangeley and Stratton about a half mile off Rt. 16.
 
2013-05-20 01:49:29 AM  

Shadow Blasko: 7th Son of a 7th Son: I grew up in OKC/Edmond and I really wanted to be a storm chaser when I was a kid. Even went to one of "Those Terrible Twisters" shows with Gary England. Used to ride along with some amateur chasers around 2001 but never saw anything.

I really would have loved to get in with a REAL research team and do some chasing, but ... when it got popular it got stupid and polarized. I can't afford to (or have the education) to run with the big guys, and I simply WON'T make a bad situation worse by running with the commercial guys or the rogues/tornado tourism teams.

I'm glad to say that I was able to do it when it was more dangerous, but less insane.

OMG.. I'M A TORNADO HIPSTER!


Actually, you're a DOUBLE tornado hipster because you've lived in an area where pretty much all storm chasers save for yahoos fear to tread! :D

Yes, serious on that, too--let's just say I got to see THIS particular F4 almost too close for comfort and almost all of the chase logs from folks who dared to chase that storm were summable as "THIS IS MADNESS.  NEVER AGAIN.  DEAR GODS HOOSIER ALLEY IS SCARY AND I SAY THAT AS SOMEONE WHO CHASES OUT WEST ENOUGH THAT I THINK ONE OF THE FOUR FOOD GROUPS CONSISTS OF ALLSUP'S BURRITOS."

(And yes, I feel your pain re job markets--as you know, it's even worse in Kentucky, to the point that sometimes folks here look to Cincy just to find somewhere that ISN'T H-1B farming or only hiring internships.  Also hear you on the medical bills--not lump sum in my case, fortunately, but more of fun with managing a longterm health issue and possibly two separate genetic time bombs AND a longterm health issue with the SO, and the drugs that let me breathe and let the SO not go into diabetic coma ain't cheap.  I also know it's not easy even if you can get the degree--let's just say a certain television Weather Guy locally was a cow-orker of mine before the post-11-September Dot-Com Crash because he couldn't use a meteorology degree to get on elsewhere...and yes, we talked weather geekery.  Glad to know he finally has made it, but it did take him better part of ten years to get on somewhere.)
 
2013-05-20 01:53:52 AM  

Great Porn Dragon: let's just say a certain television Weather Guy locally was a cow-orker of mine before the post-11-September Dot-Com Crash because he couldn't use a meteorology degree to get on elsewhere..


There is a farker who is a Meteorologists from PA who has had the same issue. GREAT guy, but the market is just ... tanked.

Yeah, I spent a year in Central KY and was like .. Whoah.. gotta get outta here and back to Ohio, and then ended living in Cincy and working in Dayton, and now I am in Columbus. It's insane!
 
2013-05-20 01:54:30 AM  

BuckTurgidson: tinfoil-hat maggie: BuckTurgidson: One can't imagine why the Lord hates Kansans.

The Lord of what?

The Lord of Grace, and of Mercy, and of Brotherhood, and of Love, of course.


Kathulu?
/So confused : )
//Or maybe...Shiva?
///Hmmm, oh I know, Baal right ; )
 
2013-05-20 01:54:35 AM  

Shadow Blasko: There is a farker who is a Meteorologists from PA


I swear I typed that better. I haz no skillz on a laptop keyboard.
 
2013-05-20 02:02:31 AM  

Great Porn Dragon: (Bangladesh, in case you're curious, is about the only place in the world that has the level of tornadogenesis that exists in the Tornado Alleys in the US.


My bathroom reading is, as of late, an older (2001) Guinness Book of World Records. I was surprised to read that the UK has the most tornadoes per year per square mile. I was quite surprised by this as one seldom hears about them coming from the UK so I went online and that appears to be factually correct. Ah well, I figured I'd mention it as an interesting aside.
 
2013-05-20 02:05:10 AM  

Shadow Blasko: Great Porn Dragon: (Bangladesh, in case you're curious, is about the only place in the world that has the level of tornadogenesis that exists in the Tornado Alleys in the US. They also pretty routinely get hundreds of people killed in a single tornado (because things like "tornado warnings" and "tornado shelters" just do not exist in Bangladesh) and at least one tornado has caused over 1300 deaths as recently as 1989. If the Jarrell tornado had hit in Dallas, it'd easily dwarf that death toll, sadly.)

I'm so so very terrified of EF4 or shiatting something like Bonnaroo or PENNSIC or a large Renaissance faire (where I spend a lot of weekends) that there is no word for it.

Thats why I really want to see CELLULAR TOWER BASED warning systems embedded in all devices, regardless of network subscription or service level, that can warn people DIRECTLY in the path of a storm in good time.

(Say hello to what would have been my thesis)


There's a LOT of emergency managers who'd love to see your thesis--I'll admit my personal nightmare scenario in that vein is a violent tornado hitting the Kentucky Derby or a major NASCAR event (both of which have come disturbingly close for comfort--we HAVE had severe thunderstorms with hail hit the Derby Eve concerts in the infield the day before the Derby, and Talladega HAS had tornado warnings and even (EF-0 and EF-1) tornado strikes though not in the middle of a major race weekend)...because frankly there isn't a good way to herd 100,000+ people to shelter in time.

There is starting to be some cell integration with community based warning systems, but it's still not perfect--I've seen tornado warnings come across via the "emergency alert system MMS" some 45 minutes AFTER issuance by the NWS, about five minutes before it's meant to expire (and thus making it useless).

I'd note that anything using cell service would need to be more robust, and I do agree it should technically be a sort of "reverse 911" based on tower reception (it's entirely possible, as emergency 911/113 services are available on phones which are not activated on a network and are not subscribers; a lot of women's shelters explicitly take used cell phone donations explicitly for use as emergency "panic button" phones).  Basically IPAWS on steroids (or what IPAWS is really MEANT to be in practice).

(Wireless Emergency Alerts --the system for sending EAS alerts via cell phone MMS--is SUPPOSED to be this in practice but it not only depends on availability and provider but (in my experience) is still rather "laggy" compared to other warning mechanisms...which is a Bad Thing when messages pertaining to public safety may be involved.  WEA has also only been really active since August of last year, WEA capability is still very provider-specific and requires phone subscription, and is still voluntary (cell phone providers aren't required to implement it, and there's not a mandatory "WEA Chip" in cell phones)
 
2013-05-20 02:09:28 AM  

UnspokenVoice: Great Porn Dragon: (Bangladesh, in case you're curious, is about the only place in the world that has the level of tornadogenesis that exists in the Tornado Alleys in the US.

My bathroom reading is, as of late, an older (2001) Guinness Book of World Records. I was surprised to read that the UK has the most tornadoes per year per square mile. I was quite surprised by this as one seldom hears about them coming from the UK so I went online and that appears to be factually correct. Ah well, I figured I'd mention it as an interesting aside.


British tornadoes are too polite to do any visible damage.
 
2013-05-20 02:15:06 AM  

Great Porn Dragon: There is starting to be some cell integration with community based warning systems, but it's still not perfect--I've seen tornado warnings come across via the "emergency alert system MMS" some 45 minutes AFTER issuance by the NWS, about five minutes before it's meant to expire (and thus making it useless).


What kills me is that it was discussed with SPRINT and the NWS in 97 (97!!!!) but they didn't want to integrate because they feared it would lead to liability.

Heh, thats how I ended up in Norman talking to the NSSL and NWS about how it could be made to work for common carriers, and what would be required on either end.
That was when I met the chasers I got to tag along with (small world)

And yes, basically IPAWS.

The SPRINT engineers I talked to back in 1997 told me that they could make every phone in range of a tower SCREAM for 20 seconds, with EXISTING technology back then, as long as it had power, with almost no lag. Just a specific ping.

Did you know that Ohio is using EAS for freaking Amber alerts now? WAY TO MAKE PEOPLE IGNORE ALERTS AT 3AM!

Argh... So yeah, thats what I wanted to do was targeting EAS down to cell level and making multimedia information more accessible to seniors and at-risk persons in emergencies (Basically, make it as simple as possible, but more than enough info so it wasn't useless)
 
2013-05-20 02:16:55 AM  

UnspokenVoice: Great Porn Dragon: (Bangladesh, in case you're curious, is about the only place in the world that has the level of tornadogenesis that exists in the Tornado Alleys in the US.

My bathroom reading is, as of late, an older (2001) Guinness Book of World Records. I was surprised to read that the UK has the most tornadoes per year per square mile. I was quite surprised by this as one seldom hears about them coming from the UK so I went online and that appears to be factually correct. Ah well, I figured I'd mention it as an interesting aside.


The UK in general is a pretty interesting study--they don't quite get "Traditional Tornado Alley" levels, maybe "Hoosier Alley" levels of tornadogenesis, but tornadogenesis is common enough there that there's been dedicated study and even a British "tornado damage"/"tornado winds" scale (the Tornado and Storm Research Organisation or TORRO--interestingly, largely a network of researchers and observers OUTSIDE of the UK Met Office, basically imagine if a major weather research org was run primarily by Skywarn spotters and the University of Oklahoma-Norman and you get the idea--does have its own tornado scale that is a direct extension of the Beaufort scale as well as a specific hail scale).  The T-scale is of course graded differently than the EF scale (and as a lot of British tornadic activity is in the EF-0 through EF-2 scale, the TORRO scale is more useful in research there) but is VERY roughly comparable to the EF scale; an EF-5 would be roughly equivalent to a T-9 or T-10, an EF-4 covering roughly T-7 to T-8, and so on.

The Netherlands, interestingly, is also a bit of a spot of tornadogenesis in Europe (including some tornadoes that would be likely classified as EF-4 here in the States), and parts of Australia also see some tornadogenesis.
 
2013-05-20 02:19:23 AM  

Great Porn Dragon: The Netherlands, interestingly, is also a bit of a spot of tornadogenesis in Europe (including some tornadoes that would be likely classified as EF-4 here in the States),


Italy has been getting some very photogenic tornadoes in the last two years.
 
2013-05-20 02:27:59 AM  

Shadow Blasko: Great Porn Dragon: There is starting to be some cell integration with community based warning systems, but it's still not perfect--I've seen tornado warnings come across via the "emergency alert system MMS" some 45 minutes AFTER issuance by the NWS, about five minutes before it's meant to expire (and thus making it useless).

What kills me is that it was discussed with SPRINT and the NWS in 97 (97!!!!) but they didn't want to integrate because they feared it would lead to liability.

Heh, thats how I ended up in Norman talking to the NSSL and NWS about how it could be made to work for common carriers, and what would be required on either end.
That was when I met the chasers I got to tag along with (small world)

And yes, basically IPAWS.

The SPRINT engineers I talked to back in 1997 told me that they could make every phone in range of a tower SCREAM for 20 seconds, with EXISTING technology back then, as long as it had power, with almost no lag. Just a specific ping.

Did you know that Ohio is using EAS for freaking Amber alerts now? WAY TO MAKE PEOPLE IGNORE ALERTS AT 3AM!

Argh... So yeah, thats what I wanted to do was targeting EAS down to cell level and making multimedia information more accessible to seniors and at-risk persons in emergencies (Basically, make it as simple as possible, but more than enough info so it wasn't useless)


LOL...oddly enough, the provider that's laggy as hell with its WEA messages IS Sprint, so maybe they were right to be concerned :D  (Then again, outside of major cities it's a crapshoot whether you'd even get Sprint signal anyways...)

As for the Amber Alert thing...not shocked, as Kentucky has (jeez) done this pretty much every since Amber Alerts were a thing (if I could have a decent NOAA All Hazards radio where I could not just program local FIPS codes but to block specific SAME codes, I'd be golden.  I pretty much CAN do this on modern GRE radio scanners, but I'd like to see this in a dedicated All Hazards radio of the sort they sell down at the Kroger for eleven months of the year here. :D).  Even worse, they're starting to do the same with "Golden Alerts" on television and commercial radio--a "Golden Alert" being basically the same thing as an Amber Alert, only instead of a kid who's been abducted it's an elderly person with dementia who's gone missing or someone who's gone off their meds.  (They don't QUITE get access to NWS yet.  I expect, alas, it's only a matter of time before some Elderly Disappearance Emergency gets added as a SAME code the same way Amber Alerts got shoehorned in as Child Abduction Emergency warnings).
 
2013-05-20 02:56:39 AM  

Shadow Blasko: Great Porn Dragon: There is starting to be some cell integration with community based warning systems, but it's still not perfect--I've seen tornado warnings come across via the "emergency alert system MMS" some 45 minutes AFTER issuance by the NWS, about five minutes before it's meant to expire (and thus making it useless).

What kills me is that it was discussed with SPRINT and the NWS in 97 (97!!!!) but they didn't want to integrate because they feared it would lead to liability.

Heh, thats how I ended up in Norman talking to the NSSL and NWS about how it could be made to work for common carriers, and what would be required on either end.
That was when I met the chasers I got to tag along with (small world)

And yes, basically IPAWS.

The SPRINT engineers I talked to back in 1997 told me that they could make every phone in range of a tower SCREAM for 20 seconds, with EXISTING technology back then, as long as it had power, with almost no lag. Just a specific ping.

Did you know that Ohio is using EAS for freaking Amber alerts now? WAY TO MAKE PEOPLE IGNORE ALERTS AT 3AM!

Argh... So yeah, thats what I wanted to do was targeting EAS down to cell level and making multimedia information more accessible to seniors and at-risk persons in emergencies (Basically, make it as simple as possible, but more than enough info so it wasn't useless)


They do that in Oklahoma too. I was fast asleep one night when that all too familiar bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt sound came on at full blast. I honestly thought that NK had launched nukes at us or something. I check my phone and it's an Amber Alert. =/ Luckily they found the kid within a few hours.
 
2013-05-20 03:27:16 AM  
Shadow Blasko:

I'm 40, I have $200,000 in medical debt, and I'm jobless again since my last contract completed with GE.

Right now I'm barely able to secure basic "food/place to sleep/clothing" essentials.

Unless I win the lottery (which, you know.. I cant afford to play) a 6 year degree in Emergency Management  systems/Information Management is a non-starter



File bankruptcy to get rid of the crippling debt?
 
2013-05-20 04:30:27 AM  

Great Porn Dragon: UnspokenVoice: Great Porn Dragon: (Bangladesh, in case you're curious, is about the only place in the world that has the level of tornadogenesis that exists in the Tornado Alleys in the US.

My bathroom reading is, as of late, an older (2001) Guinness Book of World Records. I was surprised to read that the UK has the most tornadoes per year per square mile. I was quite surprised by this as one seldom hears about them coming from the UK so I went online and that appears to be factually correct. Ah well, I figured I'd mention it as an interesting aside.

The UK in general is a pretty interesting study--they don't quite get "Traditional Tornado Alley" levels, maybe "Hoosier Alley" levels of tornadogenesis, but tornadogenesis is common enough there that there's been dedicated study and even a British "tornado damage"/"tornado winds" scale (the Tornado and Storm Research Organisation or TORRO--interestingly, largely a network of researchers and observers OUTSIDE of the UK Met Office, basically imagine if a major weather research org was run primarily by Skywarn spotters and the University of Oklahoma-Norman and you get the idea--does have its own tornado scale that is a direct extension of the Beaufort scale as well as a specific hail scale).  The T-scale is of course graded differently than the EF scale (and as a lot of British tornadic activity is in the EF-0 through EF-2 scale, the TORRO scale is more useful in research there) but is VERY roughly comparable to the EF scale; an EF-5 would be roughly equivalent to a T-9 or T-10, an EF-4 covering roughly T-7 to T-8, and so on.

The Netherlands, interestingly, is also a bit of a spot of tornadogenesis in Europe (including some tornadoes that would be likely classified as EF-4 here in the States), and parts of Australia also see some tornadogenesis.


I got stuck in your links and almost forgot to thank you. Thanks. ;)

I do that some times, that whole thing where you start with one link and - before you know it - a long time has passed and you have dozens of tabs open... It's an addiction, I need an intervention. The record is, of course, quite clear in stipulating that it is based on the square miles of the country so there's that too. It didn't actually mention anything more than that but it was interesting enough so that I recalled it.

Mentat: British tornadoes are too polite to do any visible damage.


There is that. ;)
 
2013-05-20 04:38:34 AM  
 
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