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(Detroit Free Press)   Obama tells African Americans that there's no more room for excuses for their own failings   (freep.com) divider line 297
    More: Hero, President Obama, African-Americans, Morehouse College, historically black colleges, Emancipation Proclamation, global workforce, March on Washington, black man  
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5005 clicks; posted to Politics » on 19 May 2013 at 7:34 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-19 03:53:55 PM
This thread will be fun if it takes off.
 
2013-05-19 04:11:34 PM
Here's a better article with actual coverage instead of just a video link:   Obama Morehouse Speech

I don't see anything controversial about his remarks.  He's correct that with an increasingly globalized economy there is always going to be someone out there who had it worse than you growing up, and who overcame it.  The message to stop making excuses and start making progress is a good one, and it also fits well with his urging to give back to your own communities to help raise them up.
 
2013-05-19 04:40:00 PM
I think its obvious that today, the black community in America is its own worst enemy. Its a self-perpetuating cycle of broken, fatherless families, poverty, and lack of education.

At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.
 
2013-05-19 04:51:02 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Here's a better article with actual coverage instead of just a video link:   Obama Morehouse Speech

I don't see anything controversial about his remarks.  He's correct that with an increasingly globalized economy there is always going to be someone out there who had it worse than you growing up, and who overcame it.  The message to stop making excuses and start making progress is a good one, and it also fits well with his urging to give back to your own communities to help raise them up.


Cosby got a smackdown for it.
 
2013-05-19 05:04:45 PM

ecmoRandomNumbers: TuteTibiImperes: Here's a better article with actual coverage instead of just a video link:   Obama Morehouse Speech

I don't see anything controversial about his remarks.  He's correct that with an increasingly globalized economy there is always going to be someone out there who had it worse than you growing up, and who overcame it.  The message to stop making excuses and start making progress is a good one, and it also fits well with his urging to give back to your own communities to help raise them up.

Cosby got a smackdown for it.


...and the 'Cos didn't miss a beat.  His message has always remained the same regardless of a few distractors.
 
2013-05-19 05:10:59 PM

gilgigamesh: I think its obvious that today, the black community in America is its own worst enemy. Its a self-perpetuating cycle of broken, fatherless families, poverty, and lack of education.

At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.


Yes.
 
2013-05-19 05:55:49 PM

gilgigamesh: I think its obvious that today, the black community in America is its own worst enemy. Its a self-perpetuating cycle of broken, fatherless families, poverty, and lack of education.

At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.


My husband and I have spent years taking in foster children, the large majority of them were African-Americans. I cannot tell you how many times they told me they couldn't maintain their credibility among their peers if they "acted white." In every case, "acting white" was interpreted as wearing clothes that fit, passing their classes in school, and expecting them home for dinner and family time. It was so depressing and so continuous that when I moved to Las Vegas, I didn't sign up for the foster care program, despite my fifteen years experience and the great need in Las Vegas for stable foster parents.

On the other hand, several of my former "foster" kids have gone on to graduate college and/or enter the workforce, and start families. They all still call me mom and their kids consider me their grandmother. I count these kids among my successes, but I'm still frustrated by some kids who I wasn't able to raise as productive citizens. Two boys are in jail, and a few others have continued with drug and gang problems. In every case, the boys who are non successful have blamed everyone but themselves.

I guess the TL;DR point is that Obama (and Cosby before him) are absolutely correct. They are perpetuating a cycle amongst themselves and only they can end it.
 
2013-05-19 06:31:46 PM
gilgigamesh:

At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.

Okay, I give up. How did that cycle start?
 
2013-05-19 06:43:52 PM

bigpeeler: gilgigamesh:

At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.

Okay, I give up. How did that cycle start?


The years of slavery followed by legal segregation and discrimination didn't help.  Institutionalized discrimination and segregation has done a lot to create black populations in many areas that have a history of poverty, and with the poverty has come a de-emphasis on education, and a de-stigmatization of criminal activity within those communities.  Repeat that process over a few generations while marginalizing the population and you have a culture that has developed which celebrates behaviors that are harmful to society (drug use, gang membership, lack of parental responsibility, violence, etc).  As Kimothy mentions above it's become almost a badge of honor amongst those who grow up in that culture to perpetuate it - if someone tries to get out of it, they're ridiculed and targeted, the mob doesn't want to admit they could pull themselves up so they do anything they can to pull anyone who tries to escape back down.

Now, I have no clue how to actually fix it, and at the end of the day those who perpetuate it really just need to step back and change their views, but obviously speaking from outside that culture, it's a lot easier for me to say it than for those living in it to do it.
 
2013-05-19 07:01:15 PM

BunkyBrewman: ...and the 'Cos didn't miss a beat. His message has always remained the same regardless of a few distractors.



"Eat Jell-O Pudding Pops"?
 
2013-05-19 07:15:18 PM
So where is GOP outrage? I'm sure there will be some.
 
2013-05-19 07:16:01 PM
 
2013-05-19 07:18:56 PM

bigpeeler: gilgigamesh:

At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.

Okay, I give up. How did that cycle start?


When they foolishly gave up that free food and shelter in the 1860s.
 
2013-05-19 07:25:29 PM

Dancin_In_Anson: http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/williamns050813.php3


...so vote white Republican.  Nice.
 
2013-05-19 07:25:58 PM
That clip was inspiring.
 
2013-05-19 07:29:26 PM
Surely to have failings, you have had to have tried?

I KID I KID.  Just a joke people.
 
2013-05-19 07:38:28 PM

gilgigamesh: At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.


That begins and ends with the current generation. You don't see me blaming people for one ancestor being an indentured servant and another, centuries ago, being a slave do you? No, because it has jack all to do with today. People need to grow up and take responsibility for themselves.
 
2013-05-19 07:41:34 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: That clip was inspiring.


He's good at that. The actions the president has taken after giving fine speeches are generally less than inspiring.
 
2013-05-19 07:43:34 PM

Princess Ryans Knickers: gilgigamesh: At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.

That begins and ends with the current generation. You don't see me blaming people for one ancestor being an indentured servant and another, centuries ago, being a slave do you? No, because it has jack all to do with today. People need to grow up and take responsibility for themselves.


Right!  All obstacles completely disappeared after the slaves were freed!!

/this is what republitards actually believe.
 
2013-05-19 07:45:05 PM

PreMortem: So where is GOP outrage? I'm sure there will be some.


Tomorrow morning, when Rush Limbaugh tells them what their opinions are supposed to be for the day.
 
2013-05-19 07:46:21 PM

Gulper Eel: Dusk-You-n-Me: That clip was inspiring.

He's good at that. The actions the president has taken after giving fine speeches are generally less than inspiring.


Just out of curiosity, what actions do you think he should take to reinforce his speech?
 
2013-05-19 07:47:12 PM

Lionel Mandrake: Dancin_In_Anson: http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/williamns050813.php3

...so vote white Republican.  Nice.


Has DIA every made a non-thread-shiatting entry into a thread?
 
2013-05-19 07:47:58 PM

ecmoRandomNumbers: TuteTibiImperes: Here's a better article with actual coverage instead of just a video link:   Obama Morehouse Speech

I don't see anything controversial about his remarks.  He's correct that with an increasingly globalized economy there is always going to be someone out there who had it worse than you growing up, and who overcame it.  The message to stop making excuses and start making progress is a good one, and it also fits well with his urging to give back to your own communities to help raise them up.

Cosby got a smackdown for it.


by numerous liberals.
 
2013-05-19 07:48:02 PM
I watched the whole thing.  He was good. Really good. Almost,  BOOTSTRAPPY.
 
2013-05-19 07:49:02 PM
I am outraged that he told a graduating class that they should work hard and forge ahead despite the difficulties.

Clearly he doesn't want white kids to succeed or he wouldn't be there telling those black kids they have a place as equals among their betters

///sorry thought I was on Yahoo ;-(
 
2013-05-19 07:50:21 PM

Smackledorfer: Has DIA every made a non-thread-shiatting entry into a thread?


Not in living memory.
 
2013-05-19 07:51:04 PM

Princess Ryans Knickers: gilgigamesh: At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.

That begins and ends with the current generation. You don't see me blaming people for one ancestor being an indentured servant and another, centuries ago, being a slave do you? No, because it has jack all to do with today. People need to grow up and take responsibility for themselves.


So, showing a line of cultural development that was originated in the 1700s plantation slave culture of the Deep South and Tidewater, along with continuous impact of development from the immediate antebellum impact upon said developed culture, and the additional 100 years or so of institutionalized discrimination against members of said culture (as well as those trying to break out of said culture by being called Uppity), leading up to the present day...

Means absolutely nothing. Culture and historical background means nothing, there is no such thing as context, and Mitt Romney wasn't born with a golden spoon in his mouth on third base.

Got it.

/You sir, are a fsking moron.
 
2013-05-19 07:52:18 PM
Well, it does take a nation of millions to hold us back.

/chuck-d said it with better tempo
 
2013-05-19 07:53:42 PM
Michelle said much the same in her own address the other day.  The Obamas have been quite public about holding their own to a high standard.
 
2013-05-19 07:53:56 PM

Summercat: Princess Ryans Knickers: gilgigamesh: At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.

That begins and ends with the current generation. You don't see me blaming people for one ancestor being an indentured servant and another, centuries ago, being a slave do you? No, because it has jack all to do with today. People need to grow up and take responsibility for themselves.

So, showing a line of cultural development that was originated in the 1700s plantation slave culture of the Deep South and Tidewater, along with continuous impact of development from the immediate antebellum impact upon said developed culture, and the additional 100 years or so of institutionalized discrimination against members of said culture (as well as those trying to break out of said culture by being called Uppity), leading up to the present day...

Means absolutely nothing. Culture and historical background means nothing, there is no such thing as context, and Mitt Romney wasn't born with a golden spoon in his mouth on third base.

Got it.

/You sir, are a fsking moron.


Some people refuse to acknowledge the institutionalized racism that even still exists, albeit quieter and less obvious than it was in 1960.
 
2013-05-19 07:55:46 PM
Sekrit republican
 
2013-05-19 07:55:59 PM

Princess Ryans Knickers: No, because it has jack all to do with today.


This isn't the year 2250. There are still many people living who were victims of legally enforced segregation and many more who were and continue to be the victims of economic segregation. Though I'm white, I did attend a 99% black elementary school in Alabama right after the end of legal segregation. It wasn't legal to segregation by rule but they could by creative zoning. When we moved to another town in the same school district that was mostly white, the difference between school quality was night and day. The kids who didn't get to move to the better school (and remember, these were all in the same county where there was only one school district) suffered a far inferior education. Since it was one district, you can't say it was a case of a black city refusing to invest in education. It was a majority white county keeping most of the blacks zoned to schools that received less funding and had much older physical plants. Even if everything was magically made equal ten years ago, you'd still have a couple of generations who were intentionally given inferior educational resources, and the consequences of having them as parents unable to pass along knowledge and resources that the kids in other areas receive from their parents.

The cycle continues. Overall it's not as strong as it once was but only because many have worked hard to inch things toward equality of opportunity. No doubt that black students of today have a better chance of making it up the social economic ladder than they use to but let's not play make believe and pretend that the odds are the same. They're still far from it.
 
2013-05-19 07:56:52 PM

Princess Ryans Knickers: gilgigamesh: At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.

That begins and ends with the current generation. You don't see me blaming people for one ancestor being an indentured servant and another, centuries ago, being a slave do you? No, because it has jack all to do with today. People need to grow up and take responsibility for themselves.


There are still MANY things going on today that keep the cycle going. Blacks are much, much more likely to be arrested and charged for drugs than whites (or asians), despite whites actually doing more drugs. Other things are small but have lasting effects far beyond what we would think - yo mamma doesn't read to you (maybe because she doesn't think it's important, maybe because she's working, maybe both), and you grow up that much further behind everyone else. You don't have books at home, so you never read books, so you end up never learning to "read good", so you never read to your kids. Heck, just talking to your kids when they are really little (as toddlers and such) has a lasting, large effect.

You can't blame kids for having their intellectual development stunted because their parents don't have a goddamn clue becaue THEIR parents didn't have a goddamn clue, or because nobody every had any money or time so the kids never got stupid simple things like books and storytime.

These things take a LOT of concentrated effort to fix, the type of effort America has never, ever invested in poor blacks (or poor anyone, for that matter). Affirmative action doesn't deal with the roots of the problem. Nor does school, because the problems start long before the kids go to school.
 
2013-05-19 07:57:46 PM

Infernalist: Some people refuse to acknowledge the institutionalized racism that even still exists, albeit quieter and less obvious than it was in 1960.


"Look, the United States engaged in a system of de jure and de facto apartheid for 400 years, but as of today, we're all equal, regardless of the overwhelming economic and societal barriers to your success as a group.  WHAT MORE DO YOU PEOPLE WANT????"
 
2013-05-19 07:59:54 PM
to those saying some blacks they have know were held back by their peeps, yeah i too have seen this. the guy who told me about it was so frustrated and mad and sad and -- but he went on striving and getting ahead. he did it for himself and his wife and family.

that was in new orlans in the late 80s. as much as katrina hurt the city it did give it a chance to start over with out some of the blight and the projects. we shall see. so far it's slow going but there is promise.
 
2013-05-19 08:00:31 PM
No one chooses to be born.
 
2013-05-19 08:00:44 PM
"There's no longer any room for excuses...now watch me pass this comprehensive immigration bill that will increase the competition for the jobs you still can't get"

No Thanks Obama.
 
2013-05-19 08:03:02 PM

Summercat: discrimination against members of said culture (as well as those trying to break out of said culture by being called Uppity), leading up to the present day...


Anyone trying to improve their lot in life has been called uppity by others that don;t try, especially in the South. "Acting white" should not be a label placed on successful black people by other black people.
 
2013-05-19 08:03:16 PM

I HATE LIBS: "There's no longer any room for excuses...now watch me pass this comprehensive immigration bill that will increase the competition for the jobs you still can't get"

No Thanks Obama.


Can't hack the competition?  You can always apply for welfare.
 
2013-05-19 08:03:39 PM
No time like the present to start. Just like my doc said about quitting smoking.
 
2013-05-19 08:04:50 PM
And a 'hero' tag for making the same point Daniel Patrick Moynihan made 48 years ago?

4/10 because even now the needlessly messianic angle will get plenty of nibbles.
 
2013-05-19 08:05:25 PM

smitty04: Summercat: discrimination against members of said culture (as well as those trying to break out of said culture by being called Uppity), leading up to the present day...

Anyone trying to improve their lot in life has been called uppity by others that don;t try, especially in the South. "Acting white" should not be a label placed on successful black people by other black people.


You're right.  The urban culture that disdains education and legitimate work and playing things straight...that's a horrible thing that can only be undone by having leaders of that community meet it head on with a reprimand and a demand for them to take responsibility for their lives.

Just like the President did with that speech.
 
2013-05-19 08:06:39 PM

Princess Ryans Knickers: gilgigamesh: At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.

That begins and ends with the current generation. You don't see me blaming people for one ancestor being an indentured servant and another, centuries ago, being a slave do you? No, because it has jack all to do with today. People need to grow up and take responsibility for themselves.


You really are that stupid, aren't you. So why is there a disparity between the percentage of blacks in the population and in prison? Is it because they fail to take responsibility for themselves? What's the easy answer you pull out of your ass for this one? You know the one that doesn't involve actual thought, or any work.

/bets people who spout this shiat don't even know what a bootstrap is
 
2013-05-19 08:08:31 PM

Gulper Eel: And a 'hero' tag for making the same point Daniel Patrick Moynihan made 48 years ago?

4/10 because even now the needlessly messianic angle will get plenty of nibbles.


I think Obama resonates a bit more with the target audience.  And furthermore, should we stop talking about freedom, and democracy, and the rights as well as the responsibilities of the members of our society because someone spoke of it 50 years ago?  You'll be out of material quite fast if you are going with  "Simpsons Did It!" as the standard.
 
2013-05-19 08:08:54 PM

Infernalist: I HATE LIBS: "There's no longer any room for excuses...now watch me pass this comprehensive immigration bill that will increase the competition for the jobs you still can't get"

No Thanks Obama.

Can't hack the competition?  You can always apply for welfare.


I think it's rude for Obama to make comments like that.  He isn't the descendants of American slaves.  His ancestors weren't brought here on a slave ship.
 
2013-05-19 08:09:11 PM

James F. Campbell: No one chooses to be born.


my religion says otherwise.
 
2013-05-19 08:10:34 PM
Saw this live, as it happened. It was a damn good speech that would be lauded by conservatives if one of their own had given it.

Haters gonna hate and trolls gonna troll.
 
2013-05-19 08:11:18 PM
Just So glad it was a white guy this time you guys. So Relieved.
 
2013-05-19 08:12:03 PM
"It's just that in today's hyperconnected, hypercompetitive world, with a billion young people from China and India and Brazil entering the global workforce alongside you, nobody is going to give you anything you haven't earned."

oh thank goodness we're ending affirmative action... hold on... oh jheesh, a phone call from the IRS. i'm being audited. i can't believe they called on a Sunday!
 
2013-05-19 08:12:21 PM

Infernalist: Summercat: Princess Ryans Knickers: gilgigamesh: At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.

That begins and ends with the current generation. You don't see me blaming people for one ancestor being an indentured servant and another, centuries ago, being a slave do you? No, because it has jack all to do with today. People need to grow up and take responsibility for themselves.

So, showing a line of cultural development that was originated in the 1700s plantation slave culture of the Deep South and Tidewater, along with continuous impact of development from the immediate antebellum impact upon said developed culture, and the additional 100 years or so of institutionalized discrimination against members of said culture (as well as those trying to break out of said culture by being called Uppity), leading up to the present day...

Means absolutely nothing. Culture and historical background means nothing, there is no such thing as context, and Mitt Romney wasn't born with a golden spoon in his mouth on third base.

Got it.

/You sir, are a fsking moron.

Some people refuse to acknowledge the institutionalized racism that even still exists, albeit quieter and less obvious than it was in 1960.


Got into an argument on a messageboard (my first mistake, I know) with someone who literally said that racism in modern America no longer existed and therefore no longer needed to be accounted for.

/because if they don't see it
//it must not exist
 
2013-05-19 08:12:27 PM

cc_rider: Saw this live, as it happened. It was a damn good speech that would be lauded by conservatives if one of their own had given it.


That's all anyone needs to know about this speech and, really, anything that has happened over the past five years.
 
2013-05-19 08:12:33 PM
The halfrican Muslim Uncle Tombama went full Huxtable and pissed off his flock of black sheep now.

Both sides are racist, vote Republican.
 
2013-05-19 08:13:21 PM

TuteTibiImperes: bigpeeler: gilgigamesh:

At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.

Okay, I give up. How did that cycle start?

The years of slavery followed by legal segregation and discrimination didn't help.  Institutionalized discrimination and segregation has done a lot to create black populations in many areas that have a history of poverty, and with the poverty has come a de-emphasis on education, and a de-stigmatization of criminal activity within those communities.  Repeat that process over a few generations while marginalizing the population and you have a culture that has developed which celebrates behaviors that are harmful to society (drug use, gang membership, lack of parental responsibility, violence, etc).  As Kimothy mentions above it's become almost a badge of honor amongst those who grow up in that culture to perpetuate it - if someone tries to get out of it, they're ridiculed and targeted, the mob doesn't want to admit they could pull themselves up so they do anything they can to pull anyone who tries to escape back down.

Now, I have no clue how to actually fix it, and at the end of the day those who perpetuate it really just need to step back and change their views, but obviously speaking from outside that culture, it's a lot easier for me to say it than for those living in it to do it.


The interesting thing is that black leaders knew how to solve a lot of it, even back in the reconstruction days.  Read the autobiographies of Fredrick Douglass and Booker T. Washington- they understood perfectly

1) Get an education.  Knowledge is power, and if you aren't educated you'll never have power
2) Work your ass off.  It doesn't need to be glamorous work, but do it.

That's all you can really do as an individual.  You need other kinds of actions to remove barriers like Jim Crow laws and sundown towns, but those are tamped down (albeit not gone by any stretch) today.   My kids are multi-racial and if I ever hear them disparaging education as "acting white" they'll never hear the end of it.  Folks like Douglass risked whippings or worse for learning to read- nothing today comes close to that sort of barrier to education.
 
2013-05-19 08:14:02 PM
Black people have nobody but themselves to blame for where their culture is at today.

/doesn't stop them from trying, though.
 
2013-05-19 08:15:11 PM
This is only somewhat related but I recall awhile ago reading a news story about a black teenager, somewhere around the age of 15.  He was quite gifted mathematically but sadly he was living in an area where his peers considered such a gift to be deserving of ridicule so he hid it and tried to act like a thug; a sort of camouflage to avoid being beaten.  Unfortunately, as he was walking home one day, he was killed by a stray bullet.  It is a tragedy.
 
2013-05-19 08:17:55 PM
Pre-Election:"If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon"

Post-Election: Obama tells African-Americans that there's no more room for excuses for their own failings

I wonder whats up with that?  It's almost like he was exploiting black people to get elected.  He must have taken that one out of the "Chris Christie lowers US flag to half-staff over dead crackhead(W.Huston) to get black poll numbers up.)  Maybe thats the sweet nothings they were whispering to each other on the runway after Hurrican Sandy.
 
2013-05-19 08:18:10 PM

Glockenspiel Hero: TuteTibiImperes: bigpeeler: gilgigamesh:

At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.

Okay, I give up. How did that cycle start?

The years of slavery followed by legal segregation and discrimination didn't help.  Institutionalized discrimination and segregation has done a lot to create black populations in many areas that have a history of poverty, and with the poverty has come a de-emphasis on education, and a de-stigmatization of criminal activity within those communities.  Repeat that process over a few generations while marginalizing the population and you have a culture that has developed which celebrates behaviors that are harmful to society (drug use, gang membership, lack of parental responsibility, violence, etc).  As Kimothy mentions above it's become almost a badge of honor amongst those who grow up in that culture to perpetuate it - if someone tries to get out of it, they're ridiculed and targeted, the mob doesn't want to admit they could pull themselves up so they do anything they can to pull anyone who tries to escape back down.

Now, I have no clue how to actually fix it, and at the end of the day those who perpetuate it really just need to step back and change their views, but obviously speaking from outside that culture, it's a lot easier for me to say it than for those living in it to do it.

The interesting thing is that black leaders knew how to solve a lot of it, even back in the reconstruction days.  Read the autobiographies of Fredrick Douglass and Booker T. Washington- they understood perfectly

1) Get an education.  Knowledge is power, and if you aren't educated you'll never have power
2) Work your ass off.  It doesn't need to be glamorous work, but do it.

That's all you can really do as an individual.  You need other kinds of actions to remove barriers like Jim Crow laws and sundown towns, but those are tamped down (albeit not gone by any stretch) today.   My kids are multi-racial and if I ever hear them dis ...


Learning to read? No.

But the current urban culture treats the professional world like it's a bad thing.  It's hard to appeal to youngsters when their culture heroes are telling them to party, get drunk, sleep around, smoke weed and get rich by being rappers and/or sports stars instead of working hard and going to college.

Of course, there are exceptions to the rule.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGudnwTN_to
 
2013-05-19 08:21:08 PM
Yeah, blacks should just "get over it".

If they try hard and work at it there is a place at the table for them.

Course when you hear television and radio telling you that even the President of the United States isn't really qualified and is an affirmative action recipient do you think a black kid looking up to him thinks I should try harder? Or does that kid say "Screw it. Even if I work hard and get to Harvard they still won't accept me"

How much does that kid have to endure before he is "allowed" by white society to become frustrated and why do whites feel the need to dismiss the reasons for said frustration before we finally say "that shiats not right and we need to fix it"?
 
2013-05-19 08:21:18 PM

Summercat: So, showing a line of cultural development that was originated in the 1700s plantation slave culture of the Deep South and Tidewater, along with continuous impact of development from the immediate antebellum impact upon said developed culture, and the additional 100 years or so of institutionalized discrimination against members of said culture (as well as those trying to break out of said culture by being called Uppity), leading up to the present day...


That stuff's complicated.  It's easier to say "it's your own damn fault" and go back to the nice job you got with your college education provided by the college-educated parents who raised you in a safe suburban neighborhood and didn't do drugs and signed you up for kindergarten and little league and took you to the doctor.  After all, if you can make it, why can't some kid from a broken home in a violent slum raised by an abusive drug addict who spends more time in jail than at home?

In America, we all have equal opportunity!
 
2013-05-19 08:21:41 PM

Elvis Presleys Death Throne: Pre-Election:"If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon"

Post-Election: Obama tells African-Americans that there's no more room for excuses for their own failings

I wonder whats up with that?  It's almost like he was exploiting black people to get elected.  He must have taken that one out of the "Chris Christie lowers US flag to half-staff over dead crackhead(W.Huston) to get black poll numbers up.)  Maybe thats the sweet nothings they were whispering to each other on the runway after Hurrican Sandy.


So, you think he was waiting until after the election to say something about them not needing excuses anymore?

That if he'd said it BEFORE the election, they would have..what?  Voted for Romney?  lol
 
2013-05-19 08:22:59 PM
This young thread has already proven if there was one thing wrong with Obama's speech it was that he didn't anticipate how his own words would be used as an excuse to pile on black people under the guise of "agreement."
 
2013-05-19 08:23:00 PM
"Racism no longer exists, because we have a black president.  Me."
 
2013-05-19 08:23:42 PM
Oh, not this crap again. Obama does this every year: goes to a room full of black people and scolds them for a media audience of conservative-leaning white people. It's all a huge sham, anyway. Obama is not culturally Black, so he has no more credibility on this than any other random politician, but because he looks black, conservative leaners, both white and black, will eat it up every time.

Does Obama actually think he's doing any good, or is this just what he believes (that Black people need to stop whining and start working, which hey, guess what, they already are), or is this his way to get some more political capital to distract people from his non-performance in things that actually matter?
 
2013-05-19 08:23:58 PM

IamTomJoad: Yeah, blacks should just "get over it".

If they try hard and work at it there is a place at the table for them.

Course when you hear television and radio telling you that even the President of the United States isn't really qualified and is an affirmative action recipient do you think a black kid looking up to him thinks I should try harder? Or does that kid say "Screw it. Even if I work hard and get to Harvard they still won't accept me"

How much does that kid have to endure before he is "allowed" by white society to become frustrated and why do whites feel the need to dismiss the reasons for said frustration before we finally say "that shiats not right and we need to fix it"?


Because admitting that minorities still face steep obstacles to even moderate success means that they have to stop, look at their own success and wonder how much of it was 'really' difficult, and how much of it was made easier simply because they had the good luck to be born white.
 
2013-05-19 08:24:59 PM

grahamsletter: Oh, not this crap again. Obama does this every year: goes to a room full of black people and scolds them for a media audience of conservative-leaning white people. It's all a huge sham, anyway. Obama is not culturally Black, so he has no more credibility on this than any other random politician, but because he looks black, conservative leaners, both white and black, will eat it up every time.

Does Obama actually think he's doing any good, or is this just what he believes (that Black people need to stop whining and start working, which hey, guess what, they already are), or is this his way to get some more political capital to distract people from his non-performance in things that actually matter?


Like what?  Specifically, please.
 
2013-05-19 08:27:22 PM

grahamsletter: Obama does this every year: goes to a room full of black people and scolds them for a media audience of conservative-leaning white people.


Why is he playing to conservative white people?  They don't listen to him anyway.
 
2013-05-19 08:31:32 PM

Infernalist: Glockenspiel Hero: TuteTibiImperes: bigpeeler: gilgigamesh:

At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.

Okay, I give up. How did that cycle start?

The years of slavery followed by legal segregation and discrimination didn't help.  Institutionalized discrimination and segregation has done a lot to create black populations in many areas that have a history of poverty, and with the poverty has come a de-emphasis on education, and a de-stigmatization of criminal activity within those communities.  Repeat that process over a few generations while marginalizing the population and you have a culture that has developed which celebrates behaviors that are harmful to society (drug use, gang membership, lack of parental responsibility, violence, etc).  As Kimothy mentions above it's become almost a badge of honor amongst those who grow up in that culture to perpetuate it - if someone tries to get out of it, they're ridiculed and targeted, the mob doesn't want to admit they could pull themselves up so they do anything they can to pull anyone who tries to escape back down.

Now, I have no clue how to actually fix it, and at the end of the day those who perpetuate it really just need to step back and change their views, but obviously speaking from outside that culture, it's a lot easier for me to say it than for those living in it to do it.

The interesting thing is that black leaders knew how to solve a lot of it, even back in the reconstruction days.  Read the autobiographies of Fredrick Douglass and Booker T. Washington- they understood perfectly

1) Get an education.  Knowledge is power, and if you aren't educated you'll never have power
2) Work your ass off.  It doesn't need to be glamorous work, but do it.

That's all you can really do as an individual.  You need other kinds of actions to remove barriers like Jim Crow laws and sundown towns, but those are tamped down (albeit not gone by any stretch) today.   My kids are multi-racial and if I ever hear them dis ...

Learning to read? No.

But the current urban culture treats the professional world like it's a bad thing.  It's hard to appeal to youngsters when their culture heroes are telling them to party, get drunk, sleep around, smoke weed and get rich by being rappers and/or sports stars instead of working hard and going to college.

Of course, there are exceptions to the rule.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGudnwTN_to


Which white musicians and pop culture icons raised you to put on a suit and be professional?

None I ever listened to.

My parents did though, and now I have an education and a solid job.
 
2013-05-19 08:31:32 PM

Elvis Presleys Death Throne: Pre-Election:"If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon"

Post-Election: Obama tells African-Americans that there's no more room for excuses for their own failings

I wonder whats up with that?  It's almost like he was exploiting black people to get elected.  He must have taken that one out of the "Chris Christie lowers US flag to half-staff over dead crackhead(W.Huston) to get black poll numbers up.)  Maybe thats the sweet nothings they were whispering to each other on the runway after Hurrican Sandy.


You wonder what's up with what?

What sort of problem do you see with a person saying those two things?

You seem to have "discovered" some sort of inconsistency or hypocrisy that I do not think is there.
 
2013-05-19 08:32:29 PM

Infernalist: Because admitting that minorities still face steep obstacles to even moderate success means that they have to stop, look at their own success and wonder how much of it was 'really' difficult, and how much of it was made easier simply because they had the good luck to be born white.


You don't need to be born white to "easily" succeed.

You need to walk, talk, and have the same goals as a white guy, though.  I think it's foreign cultures that white people are scared of any more (and this includes "black" culture).

/I can even back that assertion up with anecdotes
 
2013-05-19 08:32:40 PM

utah dude: James F. Campbell: No one chooses to be born.

my religion says otherwise.


Well, you're a moron, so...
 
2013-05-19 08:33:30 PM
Whoops, I meant to say "Mormon." No idea how that happened.
 
2013-05-19 08:34:54 PM
Awesome. He should start enacting policies that reflect this.

Also, I can't wait to see the Freeper responses. That will be priceless.
 
2013-05-19 08:35:09 PM

Infernalist: grahamsletter: Oh, not this crap again. Obama does this every year: goes to a room full of black people and scolds them for a media audience of conservative-leaning white people. It's all a huge sham, anyway. Obama is not culturally Black, so he has no more credibility on this than any other random politician, but because he looks black, conservative leaners, both white and black, will eat it up every time.

Does Obama actually think he's doing any good, or is this just what he believes (that Black people need to stop whining and start working, which hey, guess what, they already are), or is this his way to get some more political capital to distract people from his non-performance in things that actually matter?

Like what?  Specifically, please.


Eh, I don't feel like getting into this argument. To all who read my previous comment: disregard the second paragraph.
 
2013-05-19 08:35:22 PM

Infernalist: IamTomJoad: Yeah, blacks should just "get over it".

If they try hard and work at it there is a place at the table for them.

Course when you hear television and radio telling you that even the President of the United States isn't really qualified and is an affirmative action recipient do you think a black kid looking up to him thinks I should try harder? Or does that kid say "Screw it. Even if I work hard and get to Harvard they still won't accept me"

How much does that kid have to endure before he is "allowed" by white society to become frustrated and why do whites feel the need to dismiss the reasons for said frustration before we finally say "that shiats not right and we need to fix it"?

Because admitting that minorities still face steep obstacles to even moderate success means that they have to stop, look at their own success and wonder how much of it was 'really' difficult, and how much of it was made easier simply because they had the good luck to be born white.


That was sort of my gist.
 
2013-05-19 08:36:11 PM

James F. Campbell: Whoops, I meant to say "Mormon." No idea how that happened.


haha. i lol'ed.
 
2013-05-19 08:37:56 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Here's a better article with actual coverage instead of just a video link:   Obama Morehouse Speech

I don't see anything controversial about his remarks.  He's correct that with an increasingly globalized economy there is always going to be someone out there who had it worse than you growing up, and who overcame it.  The message to stop making excuses and start making progress is a good one, and it also fits well with his urging to give back to your own communities to help raise them up.


That was really an excellent speech with a great message.

Hopefully it gets a lot of positive coverage.
 
2013-05-19 08:38:17 PM
Well, if anyone should learn from blaming everyone else for his mistakes, it should be him.  However, he hasn't so he's not much of a roll model is he now?

...that is all....
 
2013-05-19 08:40:53 PM
Institutional grieving and generational trauma are sad things. However, like it or not, the only cure is for those affected to stand up and say that they aren't going to make the same mistakes their parents did. It's not easy and no one outside the group can help, but just because change, moving on, and growing is hard doesn't mean it's impossible. It is a conscious choice.

Is there still racism? Yes, but all of the policies in all of the workplaces and communities in all the world aren't enough to make the cultural grief and culturally sanctioned anger and destruction go away. This is something that must be undertaken at an individual level.

Or you could sit and whine and be angry at cultural conditions that you perpetuate.
 
2013-05-19 08:40:57 PM

sendtodave: Infernalist: Because admitting that minorities still face steep obstacles to even moderate success means that they have to stop, look at their own success and wonder how much of it was 'really' difficult, and how much of it was made easier simply because they had the good luck to be born white.

You don't need to be born white to "easily" succeed.

You need to walk, talk, and have the same goals as a white guy, though.  I think it's foreign cultures that white people are scared of any more (and this includes "black" culture).

/I can even back that assertion up with anecdotes


Nah, you're right.  To a degree.  To some white people, it doesn't matter how a guy acts, it's what he looks like that matters.

But, in general, if you get a black man and he acts, talks, and reacts like the average white man, he gets comments like "you're so well spoken" and "you're not what I expected."

In short, the closer you are to white, color-wise, and the closer you act to the social norm of what is 'expected', the easier your time will be.
 
2013-05-19 08:41:06 PM

sendtodave: grahamsletter: Obama does this every year: goes to a room full of black people and scolds them for a media audience of conservative-leaning white people.

Why is he playing to conservative white people?  They don't listen to him anyway.


And, everyone reading: disregard my first paragraph, too. I didn't really think this through...
 
2013-05-19 08:41:24 PM

WaffleStomper: roll model is he


bunch it up, then lick it then roll carefully outside to inside, twirl the ends. done.

never never use cheap zigzags. ever.
 
2013-05-19 08:43:12 PM

gadian: Institutional grieving and generational trauma are sad things. However, like it or not, the only cure is for those affected to stand up and say that they aren't going to make the same mistakes their parents did. It's not easy and no one outside the group can help, but just because change, moving on, and growing is hard doesn't mean it's impossible. It is a conscious choice.

Is there still racism? Yes, but all of the policies in all of the workplaces and communities in all the world aren't enough to make the cultural grief and culturally sanctioned anger and destruction go away. This is something that must be undertaken at an individual level.

Or you could sit and whine and be angry at cultural conditions that you perpetuate.


It's easy to judge, isn't it?
 
2013-05-19 08:43:33 PM

Smackledorfer: Lionel Mandrake: Dancin_In_Anson: http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/williamns050813.php3

...so vote white Republican.  Nice.

Has DIA every made a non-thread-shiatting entry into a thread?


I think so but it was a case of "wrong alt"
 
2013-05-19 08:44:35 PM

sendtodave: grahamsletter: Obama does this every year: goes to a room full of black people and scolds them for a media audience of conservative-leaning white people.

Why is he playing to conservative white people?  They don't listen to him anyway.


Oh please. Grahamsletter'spremise was flawed from the beginning. Obama wasn't "scolding" the graduates. His speech was like every other commencement speech in history: a pep talk. And if you've graduated college within the past 6 years or so, you'll probably need a morale boost entering this brutal job market. He just added a few words to fit this particular audience. Now if you graduated from Morehouse you probably have your head together enough to accept responsibility, but if Obama's message could be passed along to someone who needs it, then something good came from it.

If Conservatives want to believe he was giving black men what for they can. It wouldn't be the first time they were wrong about something. But you don't have to help them out by admonishing a perfectly well-meaning message.
 
2013-05-19 08:45:00 PM
You're all missing the point. He's telling this to black men who are already in school to better their lives. This would hit harder if he were standing in the ghetto talking like this.
 
2013-05-19 08:45:27 PM

TuteTibiImperes: bigpeeler: gilgigamesh:

At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.

Okay, I give up. How did that cycle start?

The years of slavery followed by legal segregation and discrimination didn't help.  Institutionalized discrimination and segregation has done a lot to create black populations in many areas that have a history of poverty, and with the poverty has come a de-emphasis on education, and a de-stigmatization of criminal activity within those communities.  Repeat that process over a few generations while marginalizing the population and you have a culture that has developed which celebrates behaviors that are harmful to society (drug use, gang membership, lack of parental responsibility, violence, etc).  As Kimothy mentions above it's become almost a badge of honor amongst those who grow up in that culture to perpetuate it - if someone tries to get out of it, they're ridiculed and targeted, the mob doesn't want to admit they could pull themselves up so they do anything they can to pull anyone who tries to escape back down.

Now, I have no clue how to actually fix it, and at the end of the day those who perpetuate it really just need to step back and change their views, but obviously speaking from outside that culture, it's a lot easier for me to say it than for those living in it to do it.


This is pretty much spot on.

Though throw in all that; with a little dibble of social engineering, and a dabble of social welfare programs...and voila!  Also add the fact that the benefits of a positive male influence have been HEAVILY de-emphasized in Black culture; it's all just adds up to a complete mess.

The fact that I'm Black, 28, with a stable full-time job (that pays excellent benefits), a college education, a pilot's license, and no kids...Something like that really shouldn't be seen as an the exception to the rule.

/I'm a hit with the recently divorced women, however...
//I avoid recently divorced women like the goddamned black plague
 
2013-05-19 08:46:57 PM

TheEdibleSnuggie: TuteTibiImperes: bigpeeler: gilgigamesh:

At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.

Okay, I give up. How did that cycle start?

The years of slavery followed by legal segregation and discrimination didn't help.  Institutionalized discrimination and segregation has done a lot to create black populations in many areas that have a history of poverty, and with the poverty has come a de-emphasis on education, and a de-stigmatization of criminal activity within those communities.  Repeat that process over a few generations while marginalizing the population and you have a culture that has developed which celebrates behaviors that are harmful to society (drug use, gang membership, lack of parental responsibility, violence, etc).  As Kimothy mentions above it's become almost a badge of honor amongst those who grow up in that culture to perpetuate it - if someone tries to get out of it, they're ridiculed and targeted, the mob doesn't want to admit they could pull themselves up so they do anything they can to pull anyone who tries to escape back down.

Now, I have no clue how to actually fix it, and at the end of the day those who perpetuate it really just need to step back and change their views, but obviously speaking from outside that culture, it's a lot easier for me to say it than for those living in it to do it.

This is pretty much spot on.

Though throw in all that; with a little dibble of social engineering, and a dabble of social welfare programs...and voila!  Also add the fact that the benefits of a positive male influence have been HEAVILY de-emphasized in Black culture; it's all just adds up to a complete mess.

The fact that I'm Black, 28, with a stable full-time job (that pays excellent benefits), a college education, a pilot's license, and no kids...Something like that really shouldn't be seen as an the exception to the rule.

/I'm a hit with the recently divorced women, however...
//I avoid recently divorced women like the god ...


Avoiding recently divorced women is a universal truth.
 
2013-05-19 08:47:05 PM

Gulper Eel: Dusk-You-n-Me: That clip was inspiring.

He's good at that. The actions the president legislature has taken after giving fine speeches are generally less than inspiring.


FTFY
 
2013-05-19 08:47:33 PM

adamatari: Princess Ryans Knickers: gilgigamesh: At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.

That begins and ends with the current generation. You don't see me blaming people for one ancestor being an indentured servant and another, centuries ago, being a slave do you? No, because it has jack all to do with today. People need to grow up and take responsibility for themselves.

There are still MANY things going on today that keep the cycle going. Blacks are much, much more likely to be arrested and charged for drugs than whites (or asians), despite whites actually doing more drugs. Other things are small but have lasting effects far beyond what we would think - yo mamma doesn't read to you (maybe because she doesn't think it's important, maybe because she's working, maybe both), and you grow up that much further behind everyone else. You don't have books at home, so you never read books, so you end up never learning to "read good", so you never read to your kids. Heck, just talking to your kids when they are really little (as toddlers and such) has a lasting, large effect.

You can't blame kids for having their intellectual development stunted because their parents don't have a goddamn clue becaue THEIR parents didn't have a goddamn clue, or because nobody every had any money or time so the kids never got stupid simple things like books and storytime.

These things take a LOT of concentrated effort to fix, the type of effort America has never, ever invested in poor blacks (or poor anyone, for that matter). Affirmative action doesn't deal with the roots of the problem. Nor does school, because the problems start long before the kids go to school.


This is what creates white trash, too. I saw it a lot in high school--for the type of kids who went there, the norm was for the son to get in physical fights with their fathers when they hit their late teens, and for the daughter to be a slut. Both genders just believed they could go out and 'work really hard' and get a job without even a high school diploma. That sort of thing is culture, and culture is  hellishly difficult to work around.
 
2013-05-19 08:47:46 PM

grahamsletter: Obama is not culturally Black, so he has no more credibility on this than any other random politician, but because he looks black, conservative leaners, both white and black, will eat it up every time.


Wait. Waitwaitwait.

The President of the United States/Seekrit Mooslem Fartbongoing Usurper only looks black.

But he's not culturally black.

In other words, he's ... acting white?

/kills self
 
2013-05-19 08:49:00 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: TuteTibiImperes: Here's a better article with actual coverage instead of just a video link:   Obama Morehouse Speech

I don't see anything controversial about his remarks.  He's correct that with an increasingly globalized economy there is always going to be someone out there who had it worse than you growing up, and who overcame it.  The message to stop making excuses and start making progress is a good one, and it also fits well with his urging to give back to your own communities to help raise them up.

That was really an excellent speech with a great message.

Hopefully it gets a lot of positive coverage.


I've read this about six or seven times.

And I can't see what the hell tpoc is getting at. I mean, there's got to me some snark there, there seriously has got to be something. I mean, goddamnit, it's TPOC! THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING

There was a Garfield comic years ago where Jon was explaining how there's cat hairs in everything, even his food, and he was demonstrating, but couldn't find it, and totally disassembled his meal to find it... last panel is Garfield going "Oh, whoops, forgot to put one in."

I FEEL THAT RIGHT NOW
 
2013-05-19 08:49:48 PM
Lionel Mandrake: Elvis Presleys Death Throne: Pre-Election:"If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon"
"I may be be a black man elected President in a white-dominated society, but I still identify with mainstream black culture, in particular a gangbanger possibly killed in self-defense"

Post-Election: Obama tells African-Americans that there's no more room for excuses for their own failings
"Hey, I'm black and I made it through Harvard and into the Presidency.  What's wrong with all you other black people?  What are you waiting for?"

I wonder whats up with that?  It's almost like he was exploiting black people to get elected.  He must have taken that one out of the "Chris Christie lowers US flag to half-staff over dead crackhead(W.Huston) to get black poll numbers up.)  Maybe thats the sweet nothings they were whispering to each other on the runway after Hurrican Sandy.

You wonder what's up with what?

What sort of problem do you see with a person saying those two things?

You seem to have "discovered" some sort of inconsistency or hypocrisy that I do not think is there.

Inconsitency listed above.
 
2013-05-19 08:49:50 PM

Infernalist: In short, the closer you are to white, color-wise, and the closer you act to the social norm of what is 'expected', the easier your time will be.


*nods*

It's evident in the language.

We talk about "latino culture."  Or black culture.  Or Muslim culture (Muslim is a race, right)?

My best friend growing up was born in Peru, but came to the US pretty early.  He hung around with white kids mostly, went off to college, married a very nice upper-middle class white girl, got a good white-collar job.

He was no longer "latino."

His older brother, however, still had an accent, hung around with other immigrants, and didn't do as well.

The father, being FOTB, was heavily discriminated against.
 
2013-05-19 08:49:59 PM

I_C_Weener: No time like the present to start. Just like my doc said about quitting smoking.


5 days tobacco free (that includes camel Snus).

Use nicorette, you can get a 75% off coupon online (price dropped from $50 to $12 for 100 pieces) they're a royal pain in the ass to open so you're gonna spend time getting those f*ckers out of their mass assembly lined sheets. (perforated sheets of 2x5, after you break one off you peel the paper back, that leaves foil which you need a knife to open)
 
2013-05-19 08:51:08 PM

PsiChick: adamatari: Princess Ryans Knickers: gilgigamesh: At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.

That begins and ends with the current generation. You don't see me blaming people for one ancestor being an indentured servant and another, centuries ago, being a slave do you? No, because it has jack all to do with today. People need to grow up and take responsibility for themselves.

There are still MANY things going on today that keep the cycle going. Blacks are much, much more likely to be arrested and charged for drugs than whites (or asians), despite whites actually doing more drugs. Other things are small but have lasting effects far beyond what we would think - yo mamma doesn't read to you (maybe because she doesn't think it's important, maybe because she's working, maybe both), and you grow up that much further behind everyone else. You don't have books at home, so you never read books, so you end up never learning to "read good", so you never read to your kids. Heck, just talking to your kids when they are really little (as toddlers and such) has a lasting, large effect.

You can't blame kids for having their intellectual development stunted because their parents don't have a goddamn clue becaue THEIR parents didn't have a goddamn clue, or because nobody every had any money or time so the kids never got stupid simple things like books and storytime.

These things take a LOT of concentrated effort to fix, the type of effort America has never, ever invested in poor blacks (or poor anyone, for that matter). Affirmative action doesn't deal with the roots of the problem. Nor does school, because the problems start long before the kids go to school.

This is what creates white trash, too. I saw it a lot in high school--for the type of kids who went there, the norm was for the son to get in physical fights with their fathers when they hit their late teens, and for the daughter to be a slut. Both genders just believed they could go out and 'w ...


Especially when that culture preaches it, day in and day out.  "Work hard and you can be anything you want!"

Bullshiat you will.  Success is equal parts education and pure farking luck these days.

Even people with good degrees find it hard to find success these days.  So, the old cultural fairy tale of 'work hard and succeed' needs to die.  It takes a lot more learning than working hard and we have to start emphasizing that in our culture.

Stop fixating on pretty people in Hollywood and retards in the music industry.  Focus on the people that invent things.
 
2013-05-19 08:52:18 PM

TuteTibiImperes: bigpeeler: gilgigamesh:

At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.

Okay, I give up. How did that cycle start?

The years of slavery followed by legal segregation and discrimination didn't help.  Institutionalized discrimination and segregation has done a lot to create black populations in many areas that have a history of poverty, and with the poverty has come a de-emphasis on education, and a de-stigmatization of criminal activity within those communities.  Repeat that process over a few generations while marginalizing the population and you have a culture that has developed which celebrates behaviors that are harmful to society (drug use, gang membership, lack of parental responsibility, violence, etc).  As Kimothy mentions above it's become almost a badge of honor amongst those who grow up in that culture to perpetuate it - if someone tries to get out of it, they're ridiculed and targeted, the mob doesn't want to admit they could pull themselves up so they do anything they can to pull anyone who tries to escape back down.

Now, I have no clue how to actually fix it, and at the end of the day those who perpetuate it really just need to step back and change their views, but obviously speaking from outside that culture, it's a lot easier for me to say it than for those living in it to do it.


Yes. There was and is still institutional, subtle and even overt racism.
However reacting to that by de-emphazing education and destigmitizing criminal behavior seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Asians took a different approach and although we haven't had an Asian President many are doing well.

(Yes I know they were never slaves but they did face a lot of racism)
 
2013-05-19 08:52:58 PM

jaylectricity: You're all missing the point. He's telling this to black men who are already in school to better their lives. This would hit harder if he were standing in the ghetto talking like this.


I don't think it would hit harder.  I think it would fall flat.

"You can go out there and succeed, regardless of your race, college educated people!"  "Yes we can!"

"You can go out there and succeed, regardless of your race, inner city poor people!"  "Fark you!"
 
2013-05-19 08:54:03 PM
"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color oftheir skin, but by the content of their character."

Has this come to pass?
 
2013-05-19 08:55:13 PM

sendtodave: Infernalist: In short, the closer you are to white, color-wise, and the closer you act to the social norm of what is 'expected', the easier your time will be.

*nods*

It's evident in the language.

We talk about "latino culture."  Or black culture.  Or Muslim culture (Muslim is a race, right)?

My best friend growing up was born in Peru, but came to the US pretty early.  He hung around with white kids mostly, went off to college, married a very nice upper-middle class white girl, got a good white-collar job.

He was no longer "latino."

His older brother, however, still had an accent, hung around with other immigrants, and didn't do as well.

The father, being FOTB, was heavily discriminated against.


Society 'is' society and we're all expected to at least TRY to conform to what a 'successful' man looks and acts like.

Our society functions along the same lines as a high school.  You have the cool kids and then you have everyone else.  You have fashion trends, social trends, things that acceptable to say and do and acceptable places to go, and acceptable things to buy and use.

And everyone wants to be part of the cool kids who set the standards.  And god help you if you actively buck the system.
 
2013-05-19 08:55:56 PM

PsiChick: white trash


Chiiiick ... the preferred nomenclature is 'attractive & successful Caucasian-American.'
 
2013-05-19 08:56:11 PM

IamTomJoad: Yeah, blacks should just "get over it".

If they try hard and work at it there is a place at the table for them.

Course when you hear television and radio telling you that even the President of the United States isn't really qualified and is an affirmative action recipient do you think a black kid looking up to him thinks I should try harder? Or does that kid say "Screw it. Even if I work hard and get to Harvard they still won't accept me"

How much does that kid have to endure before he is "allowed" by white society to become frustrated and why do whites feel the need to dismiss the reasons for said frustration before we finally say "that shiats not right and we need to fix it"?


That is exactly the problem

Harvard is not an entitlement.
That kid can work hard, get perfect sat scores and still be rejected. Just like the 94 percent of the people who apply.
 
2013-05-19 08:56:52 PM

sendtodave: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color oftheir skin, but by the content of their character."

Has this come to pass?


Trayvon Martin thinks not.
 
2013-05-19 08:58:27 PM

Infernalist: Especially when that culture preaches it, day in and day out.  "Work hard and you can be anything you want!"

Bullshiat you will.  Success is equal parts education and pure farking luck these days.

Even people with good degrees find it hard to find success these days.  So, the old cultural fairy tale of 'work hard and succeed' needs to die.  It takes a lot more learning than working hard and we have to start emphasizing that in our culture.

Stop fixating on pretty people in Hollywood and retards in the music industry.  Focus on the people that invent things.


THIS. Good farking lord, every time I heard someone say 'oh, I'll just get a job at McDonald's and work my way up!' I wanted to facepalm.

Space Banana Physicist: PsiChick: white trash

Chiiiick ... the preferred nomenclature is 'attractive & successful Caucasian-American.'


Ha ha. Most of them will willingly refer to themselves as white trash and wear it as a badge of honor, right alongside their Tapout shirt while they blare rock songs and country music.
 
2013-05-19 08:58:46 PM
Economy.  NOT MY FAULT!
Libya.  NOT MY FAULT!
IRS.  NOT MY FAULT!
AP phone records. NOT MY FAULT!

BLACK MEN, TAKE RESPONSIBILITY!

*rolls eyes*
 
2013-05-19 08:59:33 PM

Infernalist: Society 'is' society and we're all expected to at least TRY to conform to what a 'successful' man looks and acts like.


Hm.  I don't think that the older brother could just throw on a suit and be accepted into the white boys club.

It takes more than trying.  You need to be culturally assimilated.  You need to BE white (except for the skin color, of course).

Oh, crap, I think I just used by immigrant best friend to make an argument against multiculturalism.  I feel dirty.

/saw this same thing with a Korean friend
//FOB mother was a cleaning lady; he liked to play golf
///he turned out well
 
2013-05-19 08:59:47 PM

WaffleStomper: Economy.  NOT MY FAULT!
Libya.  NOT MY FAULT!
IRS.  NOT MY FAULT!
AP phone records. NOT MY FAULT!

BLACK MEN, TAKE RESPONSIBILITY!

*rolls eyes*


I don't think anyone in here has blamed you for any of that stuff, dude.
 
2013-05-19 09:02:18 PM

TuteTibiImperes: bigpeeler: gilgigamesh:

At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.

Okay, I give up. How did that cycle start?

The years of slavery followed by legal segregation and discrimination didn't help.  Institutionalized discrimination and segregation has done a lot to create black populations in many areas that have a history of poverty, and with the poverty has come a de-emphasis on education, and a de-stigmatization of criminal activity within those communities.  Repeat that process over a few generations while marginalizing the population and you have a culture that has developed which celebrates behaviors that are harmful to society (drug use, gang membership, lack of parental responsibility, violence, etc).  As Kimothy mentions above it's become almost a badge of honor amongst those who grow up in that culture to perpetuate it - if someone tries to get out of it, they're ridiculed and targeted, the mob doesn't want to admit they could pull themselves up so they do anything they can to pull anyone who tries to escape back down.

Now, I have no clue how to actually fix it, and at the end of the day those who perpetuate it really just need to step back and change their views, but obviously speaking from outside that culture, it's a lot easier for me to say it than for those living in it to do it.



Don't forget the governments role in perpetuating the cycle by allowing generations of African Americans to wallow in self pity and government handouts.
 
2013-05-19 09:02:34 PM

sendtodave: Infernalist: Society 'is' society and we're all expected to at least TRY to conform to what a 'successful' man looks and acts like.

Hm.  I don't think that the older brother could just throw on a suit and be accepted into the white boys club.

It takes more than trying.  You need to be culturally assimilated.  You need to BE white (except for the skin color, of course).

Oh, crap, I think I just used by immigrant best friend to make an argument against multiculturalism.  I feel dirty.

/saw this same thing with a Korean friend
//FOB mother was a cleaning lady; he liked to play golf
///he turned out well


Well, it takes more than just putting on the suit.  You have to actually 'want' to be part of that culture and to be accepted into the social whole.

So, you talk like them.  Act like them.  Go to the same places, eat the same kinds of food, listen to the same kinds of music, watch the same entertainment.

Like you said, you have to assimilate and wow, it has to suck, when you think about it.  But, then again, it sucked in high school, too, so it shouldn't have come as a shock to me, now that I think about it.
 
2013-05-19 09:03:43 PM

Truther: TuteTibiImperes: bigpeeler: gilgigamesh:

At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.

Okay, I give up. How did that cycle start?

The years of slavery followed by legal segregation and discrimination didn't help.  Institutionalized discrimination and segregation has done a lot to create black populations in many areas that have a history of poverty, and with the poverty has come a de-emphasis on education, and a de-stigmatization of criminal activity within those communities.  Repeat that process over a few generations while marginalizing the population and you have a culture that has developed which celebrates behaviors that are harmful to society (drug use, gang membership, lack of parental responsibility, violence, etc).  As Kimothy mentions above it's become almost a badge of honor amongst those who grow up in that culture to perpetuate it - if someone tries to get out of it, they're ridiculed and targeted, the mob doesn't want to admit they could pull themselves up so they do anything they can to pull anyone who tries to escape back down.

Now, I have no clue how to actually fix it, and at the end of the day those who perpetuate it really just need to step back and change their views, but obviously speaking from outside that culture, it's a lot easier for me to say it than for those living in it to do it.


Don't forget the governments role in perpetuating the cycle by allowing generations of African Americans to wallow in self pity and government handouts.


Yeah, shoulda just let them all starve.  That'd teach em to lift their people up out of poverty by sheer force of their will and desire to eat.
 
2013-05-19 09:04:16 PM

Infernalist: sendtodave: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color oftheir skin, but by the content of their character."

Has this come to pass?

Trayvon Martin thinks not.


Fair point.  But, people in hoodies are pretty scary.

ts4.mm.bing.net
 
2013-05-19 09:04:37 PM

Summercat: tenpoundsofcheese: TuteTibiImperes: Here's a better article with actual coverage instead of just a video link:   Obama Morehouse Speech

I don't see anything controversial about his remarks.  He's correct that with an increasingly globalized economy there is always going to be someone out there who had it worse than you growing up, and who overcame it.  The message to stop making excuses and start making progress is a good one, and it also fits well with his urging to give back to your own communities to help raise them up.

That was really an excellent speech with a great message.

Hopefully it gets a lot of positive coverage.

I've read this about six or seven times.

And I can't see what the hell tpoc is getting at. I mean, there's got to me some snark there, there seriously has got to be something. I mean, goddamnit, it's TPOC! THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING

There was a Garfield comic years ago where Jon was explaining how there's cat hairs in everything, even his food, and he was demonstrating, but couldn't find it, and totally disassembled his meal to find it... last panel is Garfield going "Oh, whoops, forgot to put one in."

I FEEL THAT RIGHT NOW


Sorry. No snark and no cat hair

Just because i disagree with many of his policies, I completely agree with this

Not only that, but he deserves a lot of credit for being so vocal and straight forward about it

Btw as I mentioned before
He is a great dad and husband
I admire that he believes so much in public service and spent so much of his life on that
I think he is the best campaigner we have ever seen
There is more.
 
2013-05-19 09:05:00 PM
'Stop making excuses and start making progress' is a good thing to tell any group.

Hey, here's a thought. Someone should send a guy with a bullhorn over to Congress with that message.

Wonder if Mo Rocca is busy.
 
2013-05-19 09:05:33 PM

PsiChick: Ha ha. Most of them will willingly refer to themselves as white trash and wear it as a badge of honor


All too true.

But I feel like I've heard that same phrase used in another context ...
 
2013-05-19 09:07:06 PM

I_C_Weener: No time like the present to start. Just like my doc said about quitting smoking.


Why, that's a perfect analogy!
 
2013-05-19 09:07:47 PM

Space Banana Physicist: PsiChick: Ha ha. Most of them will willingly refer to themselves as white trash and wear it as a badge of honor

All too true.

But I feel like I've heard that same phrase used in another context ...


White trash, please.

Huh.  Doesn't have the same ring to it.
 
2013-05-19 09:09:12 PM

bigpeeler: gilgigamesh:

At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.

Okay, I give up. How did that cycle start?


The chicken of course
 
2013-05-19 09:10:59 PM

jaylectricity: You're all missing the point. He's telling this to black men who are already in school to better their lives. This would hit harder if he were standing in the ghetto talking like this.


Actually a big part of his speech was about the graduates helping to lift others up, and paying it forward. I'm pretty sure he has done lots of work in the ghetto, when he was in Chicago. I hope he continues that work and expands on it after his presidential term is up.
 
2013-05-19 09:11:54 PM

Space Banana Physicist: PsiChick: Ha ha. Most of them will willingly refer to themselves as white trash and wear it as a badge of honor

All too true.

But I feel like I've heard that same phrase used in another context ...


I live on the Internet, so I've probably never heard that phrase.
 
2013-05-19 09:13:59 PM

Princess Ryans Knickers: gilgigamesh: At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.

That begins and ends with the current generation. You don't see me blaming people for one ancestor being an indentured servant and another, centuries ago, being a slave do you? No, because it has jack all to do with today. People need to grow up and take responsibility for themselves.


So, you're black?
 
2013-05-19 09:14:54 PM
This thread is just a few posts from critical mass

i am become

i47.tinypic.com
 
2013-05-19 09:15:02 PM

Infernalist: Success is equal parts education and pure farking luck these days.


That's always been the case.  You can't do anything about the luck aspect.  But if you willingly dismiss the education because you don't think you're going to hit the luck part you're done before you start.  If anyone tells you they've never had a lucky break, the truth is probably that they've been too unprepared to notice when they happened or take advantage of them.
 
2013-05-19 09:15:23 PM

sendtodave: jaylectricity: You're all missing the point. He's telling this to black men who are already in school to better their lives. This would hit harder if he were standing in the ghetto talking like this.

I don't think it would hit harder.  I think it would fall flat.

"You can go out there and succeed, regardless of your race, college educated people!"  "Yes we can!"

"You can go out there and succeed, regardless of your race, inner city poor people!"  "Fark you!"


I get that, but what I was saying was that he is preaching to the choir. He'd probably get stabbed if he was standing in front of a liquor store telling a young Tre Styles (Cuba Gooding Jr) and company to man up and become successful (and legal) businessmen.
 
2013-05-19 09:18:15 PM

sendtodave: White trash, please.

Huh.  Doesn't have the same ring to it.


Give it some time.

PsiChick: Space Banana Physicist: PsiChick: Ha ha. Most of them will willingly refer to themselves as white trash and wear it as a badge of honor

All too true.

But I feel like I've heard that same phrase used in another context ...

I live on the Internet, so I've probably never heard that phrase.


Good.

In fact, that's farking awesome.
 
2013-05-19 09:21:22 PM
I'd have liked to see George W Bush say something like this at a college commencement:  "There's no longer any room for excuses for white men.  It's true that the bitter legacies of the defeat of the Confederacy and of affirmative action still exist, but we're living in a competitive world, and nobody's going to give you anything you didn't earn.  Don't wallow in self pity and blame others when something goes wrong, set an example for others by being a better husband and father."
 
2013-05-19 09:23:26 PM

tirob: I'd have liked to see George W Bush say something like this at a college commencement:  "There's no longer any room for excuses for white men.  It's true that the bitter legacies of the defeat of the Confederacy and of affirmative action still exist, but we're living in a competitive world, and nobody's going to give you anything you didn't earn.  Don't wallow in self pity and blame others when something goes wrong, set an example for others by being a better husband and father."


continuing: "put the golf clubs down, delete your pinterest and facebook accounts, stop gaming, do not consider an ar-15 to be a real gun..."
 
2013-05-19 09:24:26 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: Summercat: tenpoundsofcheese: TuteTibiImperes: Here's a better article with actual coverage instead of just a video link:   Obama Morehouse Speech

I don't see anything controversial about his remarks.  He's correct that with an increasingly globalized economy there is always going to be someone out there who had it worse than you growing up, and who overcame it.  The message to stop making excuses and start making progress is a good one, and it also fits well with his urging to give back to your own communities to help raise them up.

That was really an excellent speech with a great message.

Hopefully it gets a lot of positive coverage.

I've read this about six or seven times.

And I can't see what the hell tpoc is getting at. I mean, there's got to me some snark there, there seriously has got to be something. I mean, goddamnit, it's TPOC! THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHING

There was a Garfield comic years ago where Jon was explaining how there's cat hairs in everything, even his food, and he was demonstrating, but couldn't find it, and totally disassembled his meal to find it... last panel is Garfield going "Oh, whoops, forgot to put one in."

I FEEL THAT RIGHT NOW

Sorry. No snark and no cat hair

Just because i disagree with many of his policies, I completely agree with this

Not only that, but he deserves a lot of credit for being so vocal and straight forward about it

Btw as I mentioned before
He is a great dad and husband
I admire that he believes so much in public service and spent so much of his life on that
I think he is the best campaigner we have ever seen
There is more.


My head assplode.
 
2013-05-19 09:27:23 PM

gilgigamesh: I think its obvious that today, the black community in America is its own worst enemy. Its a self-perpetuating cycle of broken, fatherless families, poverty, and lack of education.

At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.


The "white man's burden," aka, progressivism.
 
2013-05-19 09:30:16 PM

Infernalist: Gulper Eel: Dusk-You-n-Me: That clip was inspiring.

He's good at that. The actions the president has taken after giving fine speeches are generally less than inspiring.


Just out of curiosity, what actions do you think he should take to reinforce his speech?


End welfare.

Seriously.

The plural of anecdote isn't data, but I have personally seen welfare wreck the lives and aspirations of people. If it isn't welfare, it's being on disability, which has exploded since welfare reform.

And thankfully, anecdotes aren't really needed, since welfare reform acknowledged these very things - that generational welfare was deeply harmful. It strips generations of people of all sense of responsibility and robs them of their desire to achieve.

There has to be a safety net, and we can't let people starve, but as long as generational welfare exists (and it does, one way or the other, despite Clinton-era reforms), we will have deeply entrenched poverty, crime, and hopelessness. Maybe we need to go to a work-fare model, or a new CCC or something like that. Not sure.

Entangling people in the welfare system and making them permanently dependent on the government is just terrible. Terrible for the individual, for the family, for society, and for the economy.

Unfit for Work The startling rise of disability in America (NPR)
 
2013-05-19 09:31:00 PM
I'm always suspicious when someone is just waiting for a black person to tell black people to get off their asses and work for a living. And it's just a blatant misuse of the HERO tag.

The problem with this message much of the time is that it's effectively the "bootstraps" message conservatives have been peddling for years, while excluding non-whites and women from participating. If the message is think for yourself, believe in yourself, and fight for yourself (which includes fighting for those in your same situation), then I'd be all about it. But, as long as everything's coming up bootstraps, they can shove it including Obama (who I voted for) because everyone doesn't have straps or boots. It effects no productive change to pretend that's the case.

/Didn't watch vid, mind.
 
2013-05-19 09:34:12 PM

dustbunnyboo: Infernalist: Gulper Eel: Dusk-You-n-Me: That clip was inspiring.

He's good at that. The actions the president has taken after giving fine speeches are generally less than inspiring.

Just out of curiosity, what actions do you think he should take to reinforce his speech?

End welfare.

Seriously.

The plural of anecdote isn't data, but I have personally seen welfare wreck the lives and aspirations of people. If it isn't welfare, it's being on disability, which has exploded since welfare reform.

And thankfully, anecdotes aren't really needed, since welfare reform acknowledged these very things - that generational welfare was deeply harmful. It strips generations of people of all sense of responsibility and robs them of their desire to achieve.

There has to be a safety net, and we can't let people starve, but as long as generational welfare exists (and it does, one way or the other, despite Clinton-era reforms), we will have deeply entrenched poverty, crime, and hopelessness. Maybe we need to go to a work-fare model, or a new CCC or something like that. Not sure.

Entangling people in the welfare system and making them permanently dependent on the government is just terrible. Terrible for the individual, for the family, for society, and for the economy.

Unfit for Work The startling rise of disability in America (NPR)


If you end welfare, people starve.

Did you consider the ramifications of telling a goodly sized percentage of the population that they're not going to get food stamps anymore?

What do you think happens when those families suddenly stare down the barrel of starvation?  Do you think they're going to magically somehow do something different and, lo, find employment that wasn't there the first 50 times that they looked?

Have you considered what desperate parents will do to feed their children?  What they will do to complete strangers to feed their children?

Do you know the term 'food riot'?  I'll give you a hint, it doesn't involve throwing food at each in a cafeteria.

End Welfare.  Jesus Christ, I hope and pray you're just trolling, because no one has the right to be that...naive.
 
2013-05-19 09:34:37 PM

Elvis Presleys Death Throne: Pre-Election:"If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon"

Post-Election: Obama tells African-Americans that there's no more room for excuses for their own failings

I wonder whats up with that?  It's almost like he was exploiting black people to get elected.  He must have taken that one out of the "Chris Christie lowers US flag to half-staff over dead crackhead(W.Huston) to get black poll numbers up.)  Maybe thats the sweet nothings they were whispering to each other on the runway after Hurrican Sandy.


25.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-05-19 09:35:03 PM

sendtodave: Infernalist: sendtodave: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color oftheir skin, but by the content of their character."

Has this come to pass?

Trayvon Martin thinks not.

Fair point.  But, people in hoodies are pretty scary.

[ts4.mm.bing.net image 131x177]


Damn, looks like even Weird Al looks scary in a hoodie.
 
2013-05-19 09:35:27 PM

WaffleStomper: Economy.  NOT MY FAULT!
Libya.  NOT MY FAULT!
IRS.  NOT MY FAULT!
AP phone records. NOT MY FAULT!

BLACK MEN, TAKE RESPONSIBILITY!

*rolls eyes*


I love when trolls show themselves like a toddler crying for attention, each post a larger scream than the last.
 
2013-05-19 09:36:19 PM

DayeOfJustice: I'm always suspicious when someone is just waiting for a black person to tell black people to get off their asses and work for a living. And it's just a blatant misuse of the HERO tag.

The problem with this message much of the time is that it's effectively the "bootstraps" message conservatives have been peddling for years, while excluding non-whites and women from participating. If the message is think for yourself, believe in yourself, and fight for yourself (which includes fighting for those in your same situation), then I'd be all about it. But, as long as everything's coming up bootstraps, they can shove it including Obama (who I voted for) because everyone doesn't have straps or boots. It effects no productive change to pretend that's the case.

/Didn't watch vid, mind.


He wasn't telling people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

He was telling a graduating class of college kids to give back to the community and help improve their communities and 'pay it forward'.

It was the 'anti-bootstrap' speech.  Help your neighbors and community and those that come after you to do better.
 
2013-05-19 09:47:32 PM
There is as long as they're still called "African" Americans, the term is offensive, might as well say "Quasi" American. Not real American, you're really African. How about we go with Americanized Africans? Silly crap. You are black, you are white whatever you are American. Nobody talks of European Americans, or South American Americans. I call bullshiat. It's white, brown, yellow, red and black. All American.
 
2013-05-19 09:51:45 PM

Infernalist: TheEdibleSnuggie: TuteTibiImperes: bigpeeler: gilgigamesh:

At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.

Okay, I give up. How did that cycle start?

The years of slavery followed by legal segregation and discrimination didn't help.  Institutionalized discrimination and segregation has done a lot to create black populations in many areas that have a history of poverty, and with the poverty has come a de-emphasis on education, and a de-stigmatization of criminal activity within those communities.  Repeat that process over a few generations while marginalizing the population and you have a culture that has developed which celebrates behaviors that are harmful to society (drug use, gang membership, lack of parental responsibility, violence, etc).  As Kimothy mentions above it's become almost a badge of honor amongst those who grow up in that culture to perpetuate it - if someone tries to get out of it, they're ridiculed and targeted, the mob doesn't want to admit they could pull themselves up so they do anything they can to pull anyone who tries to escape back down.

Now, I have no clue how to actually fix it, and at the end of the day those who perpetuate it really just need to step back and change their views, but obviously speaking from outside that culture, it's a lot easier for me to say it than for those living in it to do it.

This is pretty much spot on.

Though throw in all that; with a little dibble of social engineering, and a dabble of social welfare programs...and voila!  Also add the fact that the benefits of a positive male influence have been HEAVILY de-emphasized in Black culture; it's all just adds up to a complete mess.

The fact that I'm Black, 28, with a stable full-time job (that pays excellent benefits), a college education, a pilot's license, and no kids...Something like that really shouldn't be seen as an the exception to the rule.

/I'm a hit with the recently divorced women, however...
//I avoid recently divorced ...


Just avoid giving them your real address. sheesh
 
2013-05-19 09:53:19 PM

Aye Carumba: There is as long as they're still called "African" Americans, the term is offensive, might as well say "Quasi" American. Not real American, you're really African. How about we go with Americanized Africans? Silly crap. You are black, you are white whatever you are American. Nobody talks of European Americans, or South American Americans. I call bullshiat. It's white, brown, yellow, red and black. All American.


You're clearly not from a city that has an Irish-/Puerto Rican-/Cuban-/Polish-/etc.-American Heritage Parade every week during the summer.
 
2013-05-19 09:54:12 PM

Aye Carumba: Nobody talks of European Americans, or South American Americans.


German Americans.  Irish Americans.  Italian Americans.  Latino Americans...
 
2013-05-19 09:56:41 PM

Lionel Mandrake: ..so vote white Republican. Nice


I missed that sentence. Could you point it out to me?
 
2013-05-19 09:59:08 PM
This thread sure brought em out. Trolls and racists and bigots, oh my!
 
2013-05-19 10:00:39 PM

Infernalist: sendtodave: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color oftheir skin, but by the content of their character."

Has this come to pass?

Trayvon Martin thinks not.


The seer has spoken. Kenny Craig would like your number.
 
2013-05-19 10:01:33 PM

Aye Carumba: There is as long as they're still called "African" Americans, the term is offensive, might as well say "Quasi" American. Not real American, you're really African. How about we go with Americanized Africans? Silly crap. You are black, you are white whatever you are American. Nobody talks of European Americans, or South American Americans. I call bullshiat. It's white, brown, yellow, red and black. All American.


Goddamn right!  There's only two groups in my book: us and them.
 
2013-05-19 10:02:29 PM

gilgigamesh: I think its obvious that today, the black community in America is its own worst enemy.


I'm sorry?
 
2013-05-19 10:05:40 PM

tenpoundsofcheese: TuteTibiImperes: bigpeeler: gilgigamesh:

At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.

Okay, I give up. How did that cycle start?

The years of slavery followed by legal segregation and discrimination didn't help.  Institutionalized discrimination and segregation has done a lot to create black populations in many areas that have a history of poverty, and with the poverty has come a de-emphasis on education, and a de-stigmatization of criminal activity within those communities.  Repeat that process over a few generations while marginalizing the population and you have a culture that has developed which celebrates behaviors that are harmful to society (drug use, gang membership, lack of parental responsibility, violence, etc).  As Kimothy mentions above it's become almost a badge of honor amongst those who grow up in that culture to perpetuate it - if someone tries to get out of it, they're ridiculed and targeted, the mob doesn't want to admit they could pull themselves up so they do anything they can to pull anyone who tries to escape back down.

Now, I have no clue how to actually fix it, and at the end of the day those who perpetuate it really just need to step back and change their views, but obviously speaking from outside that culture, it's a lot easier for me to say it than for those living in it to do it.

Yes. There was and is still institutional, subtle and even overt racism.
However reacting to that by de-emphazing education and destigmitizing criminal behavior seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Asians took a different approach and although we haven't had an Asian President many are doing well.

(Yes I know they were never slaves but they did face a lot of racism)


The difference between Asian immigrants and black people in the US in terms of obstacles encountered and overcome is probably better suited for a sociologist or cultural anthropologist who has studied it in depth, but here's my quick-and-dirty off the hip take -

Many of the Asian immigrants to the US came here by choice, and aside from those very early on who came to work the railroads and other manual jobs, came over with the express purpose of building a better life through either starting their own businesses or taking advantage of educational opportunities here.  The value of a good education is much more heavily emphasized in the stereotypical Asian household than it is in the stereotypical poor black household.  When your parents push you from day 1 to get straight As, go to a good college, and become a doctor or lawyer, your chances of breaking the cycle of generational poverty are much greater.  Plus, at least from what I've seen, most Asians don't experience as much racism as black people as long as they speak fluent English without much of an accent and fit more or less into mainstream society culturally.

Now, there are some very insular poor Asian immigrant communities in the US that likely face problems similar to those of poor black communities - but the overall Asian population in the US is much smaller than the black population, and the poor Asian communities tend to also be rather secretive, keep to themselves, and often due to being made up of more recent immigrants, have the language barrier issue - so they just aren't as visible to society at large and don't get as much press.
 
2013-05-19 10:06:32 PM

Dancin_In_Anson: Lionel Mandrake: ..so vote white Republican. Nice

I missed that sentence. Could you point it out to me?


'don't vote anything black or democrat'

But I'm sure your take-away was a hispanic or asian member of the green party?

Thinly veiled svwr is thinly veiled.
 
2013-05-19 10:06:46 PM

Princess Ryans Knickers: gilgigamesh: At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.

That begins and ends with the current generation. You don't see me blaming people for one ancestor being an indentured servant and another, centuries ago, being a slave do you? No, because it has jack all to do with today. People need to grow up and take responsibility for themselves.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=derzWWYf3-w&feature=player_detailpage #t =107s
 
2013-05-19 10:11:13 PM

DamnYankees: gilgigamesh: I think its obvious that today, the black community in America is its own worst enemy.

I'm sorry?


It's like that one scene from the Sopranos. "You are your own worst enemy" can be said to pretty much anyone while still (if you interpret it creatively enough) being true, and it's got that vaguely poetic ring to it which makes it sound somewhat profound in any context.
 
2013-05-19 10:11:31 PM
ITT: Wealthy white people who know what poor black people need and what their problem is.
 
2013-05-19 10:13:18 PM

The Great EZE: Aye Carumba: There is as long as they're still called "African" Americans, the term is offensive, might as well say "Quasi" American. Not real American, you're really African. How about we go with Americanized Africans? Silly crap. You are black, you are white whatever you are American. Nobody talks of European Americans, or South American Americans. I call bullshiat. It's white, brown, yellow, red and black. All American.

You're clearly not from a city that has an Irish-/Puerto Rican-/Cuban-/Polish-/etc.-American Heritage Parade every week during the summer.


You are correct. In San Jose all we get is Cinco de Mayo, which celebrates the defeat of France by Mexico. Sort of a fark you America celebration with lots of looting and burning. Weird how this shiat bothers me at all, but it came up in court once, I said "your honor that's when I was surrounded and beaten by 7 Mexicans" to which the defense argued I was a racist because they could have been from Peru or some crap. I should have said "short brown people, maybe Americans who prefer to be considered a foreign nationality in a captured land, with bad moustaches".
 
2013-05-19 10:17:36 PM

Infernalist: Even people with good degrees find it hard to find success these days.  So, the old cultural fairy tale of 'work hard and succeed' needs to die.  It takes a lot more learning than working hard and we have to start emphasizing that in our culture.


"I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of it."
 
2013-05-19 10:23:14 PM

gilgigamesh: I think its obvious that today, the black community in America is its own worst enemy. Its a self-perpetuating cycle of broken, fatherless families, poverty, and lack of education.

At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.


Because black people are lazy? Wait, wait, we can't say that anymore. It's because the government has made them dependent, right?
 
2013-05-19 10:23:48 PM

DayeOfJustice: I'm always suspicious when someone is just waiting for a black person to tell black people to get off their asses and work for a living. And it's just a blatant misuse of the HERO tag.

The problem with this message much of the time is that it's effectively the "bootstraps" message conservatives have been peddling for years, while excluding non-whites and women from participating. If the message is think for yourself, believe in yourself, and fight for yourself (which includes fighting for those in your same situation), then I'd be all about it. But, as long as everything's coming up bootstraps, they can shove it including Obama (who I voted for) because everyone doesn't have straps or boots. It effects no productive change to pretend that's the case.

/Didn't watch vid, mind.


Actually it wasn't. The message I got from it, is that many people aren't born with the bootstraps, and it's up to the community to care about those people and to in turn, help others to succeed. I am sure that message wasn't lost on the Morehouse grads many of whom struggled to be where there were today, and coming from a guy who wasn't born with bootstraps and who has acknowledged he had lots of help from others to be where he was today.


When I said conservatives would have praised it, I didn't mean that it was a "conservative" message. Just
that it was a good speech that anyone, regardless of party could have been proud of. I doubt many conservatives today would have acknowledged the obvious lack of bootstraps allotted to some people, and that we should care about this in any way.
 
2013-05-19 10:27:34 PM
I think it's relevant to this discussion to point out that we're currently living in a period of American history in which upward mobility is extremely low. [Citation]

So even if you want to dismiss the social and economic impact of 300 years of institutional racism, consider that a person growing up poor in America today is much less likely to emerge from poverty when they reach adulthood than his/her counterpart prior to the end of Jim Crow, i.e. Baby Boomers.

Hard work, personal responsibility, etc. are obviously important values, but they may not be sufficient to overcome poverty.
 
2013-05-19 10:32:06 PM

The_Sponge: BunkyBrewman: ...and the 'Cos didn't miss a beat. His message has always remained the same regardless of a few distractors.

"Eat Jell-O Pudding Pops"?


Hippin' and a hoppin' and a bippin' and a boppin'. Blizm blozm Kodak.
 
2013-05-19 10:33:24 PM

alpha charlie bravo: I think it's relevant to this discussion to point out that we're currently living in a period of American history in which upward mobility is extremely low. [Citation]

So even if you want to dismiss the social and economic impact of 300 years of institutional racism, consider that a person growing up poor in America today is much less likely to emerge from poverty when they reach adulthood than his/her counterpart prior to the end of Jim Crow, i.e. Baby Boomers.

Hard work, personal responsibility, etc. are obviously important values, but they may not be sufficient to overcome poverty.


I always get a kick out of "the value of hard work."   The hardest working people are the poorest.  It's pretty much always been that way.

And, since Obama was speaking directly to upwardly mobile black people, it does make the message kinda specific, it seems.

Successful black people, you can continue to succeed!
 
2013-05-19 10:34:54 PM

sendtodave: I always get a kick out of "the value of hard work."   The hardest working people are the poorest.  It's pretty much always been that way.


Exactly right. The class which makes the most money these days - pretty much all days - is the rentier class which, pretty much by definition, do not do work.
 
2013-05-19 10:37:56 PM

The Dog Ate My Homework: gilgigamesh: I think its obvious that today, the black community in America is its own worst enemy. Its a self-perpetuating cycle of broken, fatherless families, poverty, and lack of education.

At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.

Because black people are lazy? Wait, wait, we can't say that anymore. It's because the government has made them dependent, right?


Well, let's examine the history, shall we?

At no point in their existence here in the Americas has the black population ever been in a good position.  They have, from their very beginnings, been exploited, discriminated against, terrorized, marginalized, segregated and oppressed.

Even when they got freedom from the federal government, that same federal government abandoned them to the local authorities that had, until the Civil War, held them as troublemakers at best and chattel property at worst.  Wide spread oppression for the next 100 years became the norm.

At no point in their history have they EVER had equal footing with the white majority in this country.

Are things better now than they were in 1950?  Oh yes.

But, have we managed to bridge the difference and say honestly that the average black man has the same chances of success as the average white man?  Hells to the no.

And until we can say that honestly, then we have to acknowledge that perpetual cycle of poverty and the wide spread negatives that go along with that cycle.
 
2013-05-19 10:38:13 PM

A Dark Evil Omen: ITT: Wealthy white people who know what poor black people need and what their problem is.


Well, obviously the solution is to cut social services because they're such a huge drain on our deficits.
That money could be best spent elsewhere.

www.kulturekritic.com
 
2013-05-19 10:39:10 PM
As a white man in Montana...I have no opinion on this whatsoever. But I'll post anyway, because I like posting.

/159th!!
 
2013-05-19 10:39:38 PM
This coming from a guy making excuses for all his scandals in the past week alone.

/Obvious troll is obvious
/DNR the thread, so this "point" was probably already made in some form.
 
2013-05-19 10:41:57 PM

Infernalist: But, have we managed to bridge the difference and say honestly that the average black man has the same chances of success as the average white man?  Hells to the no.


If you compare the average black person to the average white person, there is a large gap.

If you compare the average poor black person to the average poor white person, there is a smaller gap.

Poor white trash don't have high chances of success, either.  Or poor anyone, really.
 
2013-05-19 10:42:54 PM
Fair enough, fair enough, but that also means bigoted assholes get absolutely no quarter anymore.  If you are stupid enough to be a racist farktard, you get what you get.
 
2013-05-19 10:44:45 PM

sendtodave: I always get a kick out of "the value of hard work."   The hardest working people are the poorest.  It's pretty much always been that way.

And, since Obama was speaking directly to upwardly mobile black people, it does make the message kinda specific, it seems.

Successful black people, you can continue to succeed!


I don't know how upwardly mobile the audience is. I imagine some of the students at Morehouse come from privileged backgrounds, but I'm sure some don't.

Also I agree with you on the "hard work" trope. No one works harder than someone trying to get by with 2 or 3 part-time minimum wage jobs and trying to raise a family. Yet they're constantly lectured about "hard work" by people who feel superior because they sit behind a desk for 60 hours a week.
 
2013-05-19 10:45:05 PM
Obama tells African Americans that there's no more room for excuses for their own failings

FTFObama
 
2013-05-19 10:50:08 PM
The Dog Ate My Homework:

Because black people are lazy? Wait, wait, we can't say that anymore.


Oh you can say it. Doesn't make it true, but you can say it all you like.
 
2013-05-19 10:51:05 PM

alpha charlie bravo: I don't know how upwardly mobile the audience is. I imagine some of the students at Morehouse come from privileged backgrounds, but I'm sure some don't.


Fair enough.  I was speaking more to the "hundreds of years of discrimination" idea.  At some point along the line they went from second class citizens to (affluent?) college-attending people.

Maybe not this generation was upwardly mobile, but someone was.  And it was probably harder for whoever did it than white guys, yeah.  Most white guys don't start out poor.

/there I go, bringing class into it again
//but that's what it's all about!
 
2013-05-19 10:53:43 PM

alpha charlie bravo: sendtodave: I always get a kick out of "the value of hard work."   The hardest working people are the poorest.  It's pretty much always been that way.

And, since Obama was speaking directly to upwardly mobile black people, it does make the message kinda specific, it seems.

Successful black people, you can continue to succeed!

I don't know how upwardly mobile the audience is. I imagine some of the students at Morehouse come from privileged backgrounds, but I'm sure some don't.


Morehouse is private, and more expensive than many other HBCUs, but Googling around it shows that 97% of students are on some sort of financial aid there.
 
2013-05-19 10:54:19 PM

Infernalist: dustbunnyboo:


There has to be a safety net, and we can't let people starve, but as long as generational welfare exists (and it does, one way or the other, despite Clinton-era reforms), we will have deeply entrenched poverty, crime, and hopelessness. Maybe we need to go to a work-fare model, or a new CCC or something like that. Not sure.

If you end welfare, people starve.

You know how I know you didn't read what I wrote? The part (above) where I specifically said that we can't let people starve.

Did you consider the ramifications of telling a goodly sized percentage of the population that they're not going to get food stamps anymore?

Have you considered what generational welfare does to people? And again, and really, I can't stress this enough, I specifically said that we can't let people starve.

What do you think happens when those families suddenly stare down the barrel of starvation?  Do you think they're going to magically somehow do something different and, lo, find employment that wasn't there the first 50 times that they looked?

Who said "suddenly", other than you?

Who said that they'd automatically have to try to find work, other than you?

In fact, I said that we might have to help by making work, and cited the CCC, which helped people during the Great Depression.

You seem to be seriously invested in hysterically tarring anyone who says they want to end welfare with your brush.

Have you considered what desperate parents will do to feed their children?  What they will do to complete strangers to feed their children?

Again, since you seem stuck on saying I said what I specifically ruled out, I said: There has to be a safety net, and we can't let people starve

Do you know the term 'food riot'?  I'll give you a hint, it doesn't involve throwing food at each in a cafeteria.

And again: There has to be a safety net, and we can't let people starve

End Welfare.  Jesus Christ, I hope and pray you're just trolling, because no one has the right to be that...naive.

No, let's keep what we have, which is:

African Americans have a high rate of unemployment.

BET Founder: 'This Country Would Never Tolerate White Unemployment at 14 or 15 Percent'

They have a high rate of incarceration,

Racial Disparities in Incarceration, NAACP

They have a high rate of illegitimacy.

Blacks struggle with 72 percent unwed mothers rate, NBC

Do people sometimes need help? Absolutely. But what we now call welfare is killing families, and like it or not, families are important to economic success. That isn't an exclusively African American issue. It's a people issue. It isn't even an American issue, It is an issue that the UK is facing, for example, and it's turned out to be painful to fix. It'shiatting African Americans harder because they were closer to the economic bottom to start with, due to hundreds of years of racism and slavery.

We need something different. I have no idea what that something is. It almost certainly isn't one thing. Raising the minimum wage would probably help. Health care will probably help.
 
2013-05-19 10:55:03 PM

Fuggin Bizzy: As a white man in Montana...I have no opinion on this whatsoever. But I'll post anyway, because I like posting.

/159th!!


I live in Montana, but I lived in DC and Indianapolis in the past, so that makes me qualified to comment on other people!
 
2013-05-19 10:57:17 PM
pull your pants up and speaK ENGLISH!!!!!
 
2013-05-19 10:59:03 PM
25.media.tumblr.com

It's kind of like telling the Titanic to stop making excuses and float.
 
2013-05-19 11:04:39 PM

Elvis Presleys Death Throne: Pre-Election:"If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon"

Post-Election: Obama tells African-Americans that there's no more room for excuses for their own failings

I wonder whats up with that?  It's almost like he was exploiting black people to get elected.  He must have taken that one out of the "Chris Christie lowers US flag to half-staff over dead crackhead(W.Huston) to get black poll numbers up.)  Maybe thats the sweet nothings they were whispering to each other on the runway after Hurrican Sandy.


It's appropriate that your Fark handle refers to a toilet.
 
2013-05-19 11:08:16 PM

dustbunnyboo: We need something different. I have no idea what that something is.


Post-capitalistic, Post scarcity industrial utopia, a society where exponential increases in productivity and automation have led to a self-sufficient economy. Such an economy no longer requires the intervention of humans in order to meet the needs and desires of the world population. Such an economic system could coexist with any political system capable of assuring the sustainability of the system. Proponents include The Venus Project, which calls its vision "resource-based economy".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-capitalism

GLWT, but the idea is the same.  If a game is rigged by design, perhaps it's time to find a different game.
 
2013-05-19 11:10:49 PM
I am a brown person, raised by an illiterate single mother in shiat neighborhood.  Now I'm in my thirties, a comfortable upper-middle-class software engineer.  What saved me was being a socially inept autist.  I didn't care when they called me "wanna-be white", because if they weren't calling me that, they were calling me some other slur, making fun of my sneakers, or my clothes aren't name-brand.  Fitting-in was never on the table for me.  I was lonely but I didn't give a fark otherwise.
 
2013-05-19 11:12:47 PM
Did he stress how important it is to be raised by white people and only white people?

And don't forget to later crap on your grandmother for being afraid of black men despite having "sacrificed again and again for me". That's class.

Who isn't afraid of black men? The most progressive libbylib Farkers, avoid their neighborhoods.
 
2013-05-19 11:19:34 PM

Vectron: Did he stress how important it is to be raised by white people and only white people?

And don't forget to later crap on your grandmother for being afraid of black men despite having "sacrificed again and again for me". That's class.

Who isn't afraid of black men? The most progressive libbylib Farkers, avoid their neighborhoods.



Gonna go out on a limb here...you're not a big fan of black people are you?
 
2013-05-19 11:20:33 PM

sendtodave: dustbunnyboo: We need something different. I have no idea what that something is.

Post-capitalistic, Post scarcity industrial utopia, a society where exponential increases in productivity and automation have led to a self-sufficient economy. Such an economy no longer requires the intervention of humans in order to meet the needs and desires of the world population. Such an economic system could coexist with any political system capable of assuring the sustainability of the system. Proponents include The Venus Project, which calls its vision "resource-based economy".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-capitalism

GLWT, but the idea is the same.  If a game is rigged by design, perhaps it's time to find a different game.


Thank you. We have to try something different.

We need to not lose another generation of people to entrenched poverty.
 
2013-05-19 11:21:21 PM

I Browse: Vectron: Did he stress how important it is to be raised by white people and only white people?

And don't forget to later crap on your grandmother for being afraid of black men despite having "sacrificed again and again for me". That's class.

Who isn't afraid of black men? The most progressive libbylib Farkers, avoid their neighborhoods.


Gonna go out on a limb here...you're not a big fan of black people are you?


What's wrong with what I said? Is it not the truth?
 
2013-05-19 11:25:36 PM
Vectron:

What's wrong with what I said? Is it not the truth?


It's not my truth. I'm not afraid of black men. But then again I'm black, so...there's that.
 
2013-05-19 11:31:07 PM

I Browse: Vectron:

What's wrong with what I said? Is it not the truth?


It's not my truth. I'm not afraid of black men. But then again I'm black, so...there's that.


I'm not afraid of them, either.  Well, not most of them.  Maybe I'm part black.

It's best to just mock the trolls.  Not you, mind you, but the other guy talking about libbylibs.
 
2013-05-19 11:33:28 PM
Infernalist:

It's best to just mock the trolls.  Not you, mind you, but the other guy talking about libbylibs.

I get that. But my curiosity gets the best of me. I never get to talk to people with views like that in my real life. So when I get the chance on line, sometimes I can't help myself.
 
2013-05-19 11:36:35 PM
Did he mention that pesky Achievement Gap?

That's kind of the elephant in the living room isn't it?

Head Start has been shown to be a failure and incredible waste of money (don't hold your breath for it to end mr and mrs. taxpayer) . Self esteem work, Ebonics. We've tried so many ideas. Coming up with new solutions for the Achievement Gap has become a large industry. Each new idea is heralded as the solution. Each new idea fails. :-(
 
2013-05-19 11:38:09 PM

Smackledorfer: Which white musicians and pop culture icons raised you to put on a suit and be professional?

None I ever listened to.

My parents did though, and now I have an education and a solid job.


Timbuk 3 and "The future's so bright I gotta wear shades"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qrriKcwvlY
Of course that took me a minute to think of, the very definition of the exception that proves the rule.
 
2013-05-19 11:38:46 PM

I Browse: But my curiosity gets the best of me. I never get to talk to people with views like that in my real life.


I'm going to shut down for the night, but perhaps some other time we can have a dialogue. g'night
 
2013-05-19 11:45:10 PM
Sounds like impeachy boy's "the era of big government is over".
 
2013-05-19 11:54:57 PM
Bill Cosby tells black people to stop playing the victim and take responsibility for themselves, people are outraged.

Obama tells black people to stop playing the victim and take responsibility for themselves, nobody cares.

The world is a strange place.
 
2013-05-19 11:59:07 PM

I Browse: Vectron:

What's wrong with what I said? Is it not the truth?


It's not my truth. I'm not afraid of black men. But then again I'm black, so...there's that.


Ah, good, now we've come to the root of your problems. I am kidding!  :)
 
2013-05-19 11:59:29 PM

adamatari: You can't blame kids for having their intellectual development stunted because their parents don't have a goddamn clue becaue THEIR parents didn't have a goddamn clue, or because nobody every had any money or time so the kids never got stupid simple things like books and storytime.

These things take a LOT of concentrated effort to fix, the type of effort America has never, ever invested in poor blacks (or poor anyone, for that matter). Affirmative action doesn't deal with the roots of the problem. Nor does school, because the problems start long before the kids go to school.


No, you can't, and you shouldn't. Does it matter what color their skin is, or whether their parents don't have a clue because their parents were the grandchildren of slaves or the grandchildren of peckerwoods? Because granddaddy was a black sharecropper in Alabamy or a white coal miner in West Virginia?

The difference is, there is no National Association for the Advancement of White Trash; there is no United Honky College Fund. If a black kid fails because of institutionalized racism, which there is plenty of and it's despicable and inexcusable, he or she has a fallback that "you can't blame a kid because of racism". If a white kid fails because of institutionalized classism, of which there is plenty too, equally despicable and inexcusable, he or she does not get a pass because of us coasties being prejudiced against hillbillies. But we are, oh, yes, we are.

The point being that NOBODY should get to PERSONALLY blame his or her failings on racism or classism or whatever. If a black kid winds up in prison, it may be that in general, cops arrest more blacks than whites, but THAT KID does not get to say "It's not my fault I broke into that house/robbed that 7-11/beat up that girl/shot that guy, it's because I'm black." If a black kid fails his algebra class because he didn't turn in his homework or study, he cannot say "It's not my fault, the teacher just hates black kids." Now, if cops are arresting more blacks, if the school is overall failing more blacks, that's on us as a society, but any individual kid should never be allowed to use it as their personal justification. Any more than that poor white miner's kid gets to.

Raise kids to own their own faults, we might have fewer black kids in the Crips and fewer white kids in the Aryan Nations, perhaps; instead of blaming their failings on teh n*ggers and Whitey.
 
2013-05-20 12:00:19 AM
Does this mean drug-trafficking, prostitution and other organized crimes will take their corrupt cops and judges and move to traditionally white neighborhoods now?

And banks and other necessary institutions for economic viability will move in to red-lined neighborhoods?

Yeah, I didn't think so.
 
2013-05-20 12:01:39 AM

darkjezter: Bill Cosby tells black people to stop playing the victim and take responsibility for themselves, people are outraged.

Obama tells black people to stop playing the victim and take responsibility for themselves, nobody cares.

The world is a strange place.


Bill Cosby was a fairly successful comedian who played a doctor on TV.  To be fair, he did have a education doctorate, and his words carried weight for people that value middle class "white" lifestyle..

Barack Obama is the most powerful man in the world.  He's a pimp and playa.

S'all about the Benjies.
 
2013-05-20 12:02:47 AM

Gyrfalcon: The difference is, there is no National Association for the Advancement of White Trash; there is no United Honky College Fund. If a black kid fails because of institutionalized racism, which there is plenty of and it's despicable and inexcusable, he or she has a fallback that "you can't blame a kid because of racism". If a white kid fails because of institutionalized classism, of which there is plenty too, equally despicable and inexcusable, he or she does not get a pass because of us coasties being prejudiced against hillbillies. But we are, oh, yes, we are.


+1 Smart
 
2013-05-20 12:05:37 AM
Am I actually reading the Fark Rightard usual suspects giving Obama props for once?
 
2013-05-20 12:07:21 AM

Vectron: Did he mention that pesky Achievement Gap?

That's kind of the elephant in the living room isn't it?

Head Start has been shown to be a failure and incredible waste of money (don't hold your breath for it to end mr and mrs. taxpayer) . Self esteem work, Ebonics. We've tried so many ideas. Coming up with new solutions for the Achievement Gap has become a large industry. Each new idea is heralded as the solution. Each new idea fails. :-(


Ah... one of those. I get that this guy's probably just trolling for the lulz, but there are people who try this shtick in real life. Once you call them on their racist bullshiat, they'll say stuff like "Whoah, hey, I never said anything about black people being inherently inferior... sounds like you're the real racist!" They actually seem to think, for some reason, that this will work.

What people like this don't realize is that not only do normal people see right through their bullshiat, they actually have even less respect for them than they would for actual overt racists, because those guys are at least up-front about it.
 
2013-05-20 12:08:27 AM

spiderpaz: Am I actually reading the Fark Rightard usual suspects giving Obama props for once?


Well, he's not coming off like an Kenyan Muslin ursurper.  He's talkin' white.

Well spoken.
 
2013-05-20 12:14:56 AM

spiderpaz: Am I actually reading the Fark Rightard usual suspects giving Obama props for once?


Only because his actual message flew right over their heads.
 
2013-05-20 12:26:57 AM

Dancin_In_Anson: Lionel Mandrake: ..so vote white Republican. Nice

I missed that sentence. Could you point it out to me?


DIA being obtuse? no way!
 
2013-05-20 01:02:32 AM

log_jammin: Dancin_In_Anson: Lionel Mandrake: ..so vote white Republican. Nice

I missed that sentence. Could you point it out to me?

DIA being obtuse? no way!


Apparently, he's unable to read between his own lines.
 
2013-05-20 01:10:30 AM

Lionel Mandrake: log_jammin: Dancin_In_Anson: Lionel Mandrake: ..so vote white Republican. Nice

I missed that sentence. Could you point it out to me?

DIA being obtuse? no way!

Apparently, he's unable to read between his own lines.


I'm just proud of him for not going with "Do you itemize?" for a change.
 
2013-05-20 01:24:59 AM

log_jammin: Lionel Mandrake: log_jammin: Dancin_In_Anson: Lionel Mandrake: ..so vote white Republican. Nice

I missed that sentence. Could you point it out to me?

DIA being obtuse? no way!

Apparently, he's unable to read between his own lines.

I'm just proud of him for not going with "Do you itemize?" for a change.


...or bringing up feral pigs
 
2013-05-20 01:32:54 AM
Surf on over to drudge for some quality race baiting regarding this speech.

/the realclearpolitics article and comments he links to are a rich vein of derp
 
2013-05-20 01:50:53 AM

Biological Ali: What people like this don't realize is that not only do normal people see right through their bullshiat, they actually have even less respect for them than they would for actual overt racists, because those guys are at least up-front about it.


No, I don't think anyone is handing out extra credit to racists for being "up-front about it".
 
2013-05-20 02:04:19 AM

grahamsletter: Oh, not this crap again. Obama does this every year: goes to a room full of black people and scolds them for a media audience of conservative-leaning white people. It's all a huge sham, anyway. Obama is not culturally Black, so he has no more credibility on this than any other random politician, but because he looks black, conservative leaners, both white and black, will eat it up every time.

Does Obama actually think he's doing any good, or is this just what he believes (that Black people need to stop whining and start working, which hey, guess what, they already are), or is this his way to get some more political capital to distract people from his non-performance in things that actually matter?


Oh? Try living around Detroit.
 
2013-05-20 02:12:15 AM
i1.ytimg.com
 
2013-05-20 02:16:10 AM

gilgigamesh: I think its obvious that today, the black community in America is its own worst enemy. Its a self-perpetuating cycle of broken, fatherless families, poverty, and lack of education.

At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.


You put some dirty clothes, detergent, and money into the machine, and select the "Colors" cycle.
Don't overload the machine or the (bible) belt will break.
 
2013-05-20 02:22:39 AM

Summercat: My head assplode.


Why? You do know you can admire the person as a person yet still disagree with their politics and public policies right? Conversely you can also dislike the person as a person but agree with their politics. Take Newt Gingrich or Charlie Rangel for example. There are plenty of people in their respective parties that think that they are pretty scummy as people in their personal lives but agree with their politics and public policies. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive by any means. Rational people can separate the two.
 
2013-05-20 02:40:21 AM

sendtodave: Infernalist: But, have we managed to bridge the difference and say honestly that the average black man has the same chances of success as the average white man?  Hells to the no.

If you compare the average black person to the average white person, there is a large gap.

If you compare the average poor black person to the average poor white person, there is a smaller gap.

Poor white trash don't have high chances of success, either.  Or poor anyone, really.


My experience is that poor people as a whole are only interested in not being poor if they can continue to not do anything useful while getting out of being poor.
 
2013-05-20 02:43:04 AM

A Dark Evil Omen: ITT: Wealthy white people who know what poor black people need and what their problem is.


I'll have you know that there are also poor white people, from generations of poor white people, who absolutely know a good portion of what "their problem" is. It's our problem too. Hvae you never been to Appalachia? The rust belt? Any generic Meth City, USA? It's the same f*cking ghetto, just with lots more land.

Granted, poor white trash don't face the same kind of discrimination as poor black people. But if you're holding a job interview, are you going to hire the hairy-shouldered, rub-mouthed, missing a toof, wearin' a sleeveless rasslin' t-shirt, talkin' like the love child of Boomhower and Larry the Cable Guy, greasy-haired, John Deere hat-wearin' meth-mouth, or are you going to hire the black kid?

We have the same legacy of criminal behavior, the same legacy of broken, dysfunctional families, the same dependence on welfare and food stamps, and the same disdain for education. Don't believe me? Come on down sometime. I'll take you on a tour, then we'll go have a drink or six at a local hillbilly bar. This here is former coal country, and we have the same disease as Hazard County, Butcher Holler, Harlan, and every other semi-famous poverty-stricken town you've ever seen on TV.

I always wondered if people from the rest of the country watch Justified with the same wonder and horror as I watch The Wire. To me, it looks normal, but I know it's not supposed to.
 
2013-05-20 02:50:53 AM

ekdikeo4: My experience is that poor people as a whole are only interested in not being poor if they can continue to not do anything useful while getting out of being poor.


Your experience is a registered Republican.
 
2013-05-20 03:08:24 AM

ekdikeo4: sendtodave: Infernalist: But, have we managed to bridge the difference and say honestly that the average black man has the same chances of success as the average white man?  Hells to the no.

If you compare the average black person to the average white person, there is a large gap.

If you compare the average poor black person to the average poor white person, there is a smaller gap.

Poor white trash don't have high chances of success, either.  Or poor anyone, really.

My experience is that poor people as a whole are only interested in not being poor if they can continue to not do anything useful while getting out of being poor.


Your experience sucks. Or perhaps it's your empathy, I suppose. I struggle with that, too. I see poor white trash living in the HUD apartment complexes for very close to free, and pissing their meager dollars away on spoilers and fart mufflers. They all seem to be able to afford personalised plates on their less than 10 year old cars. They all seem to order pizza or get McDonalds daily. Their numerous and filthy children, who haven't seen their Diddy since he done gone to jail or rundoft with that whore, are running around supervised only by their need to stay close the the Mountain Dew dispensing refrigerator. They are constantly going into hock with Rent-a-Center for flat screen TV's, and payday loan stores for cash for baby formula, because they can't be arsed to make it to the WIC appointments to get more coupons for free damned food. They spend all day doing f*ck all, except for those in the drug business, who keep getting all those free bennies while taking in black market cash. Goddamn, is it frustrating. How the f*ck can these people live what seems to be a carefree life, when I have to struggle to make more than $8/hr? The only way I "escaped" poverty was by a) marrying a teacher, who makes less than $40k, b) the good fortune to run across a foreclosure home cheap at just the right time, c) the good fortune to have family in the construction trades who could help me renovate said home, and d) the good fortune to be born with a natural talent for math, logic, and spreadsheet manipulation so I didn't piss my money away (I damned sure wasn't taught any of that shiat at my worthless-ass schools).

But I know the truth. The truth isn't that they're mooching off the system. It's that they looked at the world, realized there was no place for them, and said "f*ck it". A life time of disadvantages, and usually one or two poor decisions, have doomed them to a cycle of poverty for the rest of their lives. Why the hell should they bust their collective humps for no real reward?

Let's get serious for a moment. You want to fix generational poverty? You want to end the dependence on social services? GODDAMN PRO-RATE THEM. It should never, under any circumstances, cost you money to go to work. But it does. If you work a 30 hr/wk job at $8/hr, you lose most, if not all, government benefits. Now try to live on $1100 a month. Also, you've lost your medical card, so if you or anyone else in the family gets sick, you're farked. If your car breaks down, you're farked. Can't ride the bus. No busses around here. So, why the hell try?
 
2013-05-20 03:13:15 AM

TopoGigo: It should never, under any circumstances, cost you money to go to work.


Does that go for everyone, or just poor blacks? Regular people pay for gas, or the subway, or the bus.
 
2013-05-20 03:16:07 AM

robohobo: Does that go for everyone, or just poor blacks? Regular people pay for gas, or the subway, or the bus.


Poor blacks aren't "regular people"?
 
2013-05-20 03:27:45 AM

robohobo: TopoGigo: It should never, under any circumstances, cost you money to go to work.

Does that go for everyone, or just poor blacks? Regular people pay for gas, or the subway, or the bus.


Don't be obtuse. If you read my both whole posts rather than quote-mining me, you'd see that a) I was clearly talking about the poor white trash where I live, and b) I was explicit that you lose far more money in benefits than you gain by getting a job. If you don't understand what prorate means, you could look it up on the very piece of equipment you're using to spout drivel. If you don't understand how prorating benefits would apply to the problem of it costing money to get a job, you should spend your time trying to figure out how to use your internet device to commit suicide in a creative, FARK-worthy manner.
 
2013-05-20 03:36:38 AM

TopoGigo: robohobo: TopoGigo: It should never, under any circumstances, cost you money to go to work.

Does that go for everyone, or just poor blacks? Regular people pay for gas, or the subway, or the bus.

Don't be obtuse. If you read my both whole posts rather than quote-mining me, you'd see that a) I was clearly talking about the poor white trash where I live, and b) I was explicit that you lose far more money in benefits than you gain by getting a job. If you don't understand what prorate means, you could look it up on the very piece of equipment you're using to spout drivel. If you don't understand how prorating benefits would apply to the problem of it costing money to get a job, you should spend your time trying to figure out how to use your internet device to commit suicide in a creative, FARK-worthy manner.


Oh, I was being obtuse. Throwing more of our money at the problem won't help. Most people, on both sides of the political fence, don't really give a shiat about the problem, not really. And that's half of it. The other half is the people we're talking about either seem to glorfy their lifestyles, blame it on others, wallow in it, or are otherwise apathetic.This is America, afterall.
 
2013-05-20 03:37:20 AM

ekdikeo4: sendtodave: Infernalist: But, have we managed to bridge the difference and say honestly that the average black man has the same chances of success as the average white man?  Hells to the no.

If you compare the average black person to the average white person, there is a large gap.

If you compare the average poor black person to the average poor white person, there is a smaller gap.

Poor white trash don't have high chances of success, either.  Or poor anyone, really.

My experience is that poor people as a whole are only interested in not being poor if they can continue to not do anything useful while getting out of being poor.


Do you consider the people that cook your meals, cut your lawn, drive your cars (and guard you while you sleep) useful?
 
2013-05-20 03:47:58 AM
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/04/29/finally-proof-that-mon e y-buys-happiness-sort-of

First, it is important to point out they did not plot income dollar-for-dollar against happiness measures in the above graphs. Rather, they used a logarithmic scale, with income doubling at each interval. In other words, with that horizontal axis stretched out, the graphs would show happiness increasing more quickly for poorer countries and poorer people than for those on the richer end of the spectrum.

Or, put even more simply, an extra dollar improves well-being for someone in poverty far more than it will help a Fortune 500 CEO. That supports the political argument for promoting income redistribution - more money appears to do more good for people who are poor.


Money is just a medium of exchange, and wealth is just the accumulation of that over and above that one needs.

And it's obvious that it does not need to be tied to labor, since those with the most wealth tend to labor the least.

...

Guaranteed basic income as a solution?
 
2013-05-20 03:56:34 AM

sendtodave: Or, put even more simply, an extra dollar improves well-being for someone in poverty far more than it will help a Fortune 500 CEO. That supports the political argument for promoting income redistribution - more money appears to do more good for people who are poor.


Most economists and political scientists would agree that something that makes a lot of people happy for a short time isn't usually the best way to run a country.  If you took all the money from the top 1% and redistributed it to everyone else, how far so you think it would go?  Maybe a couple thousand dollars each?  How much difference would that make, and at what expense?

sendtodave: And it's obvious that it does not need to be tied to labor, since those with the most wealth tend to labor the least.


I guess it depends on how you define labor, but those with the least wealth probably labor less than the wealthiest.  Unless you're talking about, you know, going into labor.
 
2013-05-20 03:56:35 AM

robohobo: TopoGigo: robohobo: TopoGigo: It should never, under any circumstances, cost you money to go to work.

Does that go for everyone, or just poor blacks? Regular people pay for gas, or the subway, or the bus.

Don't be obtuse. If you read my both whole posts rather than quote-mining me, you'd see that a) I was clearly talking about the poor white trash where I live, and b) I was explicit that you lose far more money in benefits than you gain by getting a job. If you don't understand what prorate means, you could look it up on the very piece of equipment you're using to spout drivel. If you don't understand how prorating benefits would apply to the problem of it costing money to get a job, you should spend your time trying to figure out how to use your internet device to commit suicide in a creative, FARK-worthy manner.

Oh, I was being obtuse. Throwing more of our money at the problem won't help. Most people, on both sides of the political fence, don't really give a shiat about the problem, not really. And that's half of it. The other half is the people we're talking about either seem to glorfy their lifestyles, blame it on others, wallow in it, or are otherwise apathetic.This is America, afterall.


Well, you were either being obtuse, are a poor reader, or made a poor attempt at a joke. Your statement neatly addressed a point I didn't make.

Regardless, the bolded part there? That's all true. I can't argue with that at all. What I can argue with is the statement before that. It's a classic example of penny-wise, pound-foolish. If you get HUD housing, subsidized utilities, a medical card, food stamps, and WIC, which is not uncommon around where I live, you will absolutely lose a lot of money taking a job at McDonalds. And that's if nothing bad happens, like an illness, a speeding ticket, car troubles, etc. A couple hundred dollars in car repairs or a speeding ticket or driving without insurance can literally mean disaster for the working poor. So, what moron gets a damn job? Would you? I'd like to think I would, but if I'm honest with myself, I know I wouldn't.

So, what's better? To pay 100% of these benefits to people for potentially the rest of their lives, or to pay 50% or 25% of these benefits to the working poor until they get ahead enough in life to get better jobs? MAKE IT PAY TO WORK. If I get a job making $300/wk, I should lose only $1000/mo in benefits. That's an increase in money of $200 every month, most of which will be spent in gas, car maintenance, lunch, and clothing. Keep prorating it, constantly reducing benefits by slightly less than the income increases, until they disappear. I guaran-goddamn-tee you that you'll see a whole lot of people suddenly getting jobs, at least until the jobs are all taken.
 
2013-05-20 03:56:46 AM

TopoGigo: robohobo: TopoGigo: It should never, under any circumstances, cost you money to go to work.

Does that go for everyone, or just poor blacks? Regular people pay for gas, or the subway, or the bus.

Don't be obtuse. If you read my both whole posts rather than quote-mining me, you'd see that a) I was clearly talking about the poor white trash where I live, and b) I was explicit that you lose far more money in benefits than you gain by getting a job. If you don't understand what prorate means, you could look it up on the very piece of equipment you're using to spout drivel. If you don't understand how prorating benefits would apply to the problem of it costing money to get a job, you should spend your time trying to figure out how to use your internet device to commit suicide in a creative, FARK-worthy manner.


Nobody cares about white trash because they're white and we all know that white people are never discriminated against. If they're poor, it's because they're stupid or rednecks or meth-heads or inbred; and they're all mean racist KKKers, every last one, and for no other reason than they're just too stupid to learn otherwise. Certainly not because wealthy educated whites discriminate against them. Certainly NOT.

/My great-granddaddy was a ridgerunner in 1863.
//Now the Virginia Blairs don't talk to us any more.
 
2013-05-20 04:02:15 AM

sendtodave: http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/04/29/finally-proof-that-mon e y-buys-happiness-sort-of

First, it is important to point out they did not plot income dollar-for-dollar against happiness measures in the above graphs. Rather, they used a logarithmic scale, with income doubling at each interval. In other words, with that horizontal axis stretched out, the graphs would show happiness increasing more quickly for poorer countries and poorer people than for those on the richer end of the spectrum.

Or, put even more simply, an extra dollar improves well-being for someone in poverty far more than it will help a Fortune 500 CEO. That supports the political argument for promoting income redistribution - more money appears to do more good for people who are poor.

Money is just a medium of exchange, and wealth is just the accumulation of that over and above that one needs.

And it's obvious that it does not need to be tied to labor, since those with the most wealth tend to labor the least.

...

Guaranteed basic income as a solution?


Some day we'll wake up and find that we only have useful jobs for a small percentage of people. We're not even that far away; mechanization and efficiency keep reducing the need for human labor. What in the holy living fark are we going to do then? Are we going to let people starve? Are we going to create a perpetual underclass of servants who all live in the downstairs part of the homes of the wealthy, like Victorian England? Will we structure the world so that everyone retires at 30? Or will we guarantee a minimum income for everyone? We really need to start thinking about this soon. If you count disability, long term unemployment, and short term unemployment, you're at something like 20% right now. How long until that number approaches 50%? 75%? 90%?
 
2013-05-20 04:05:07 AM
The greatest trick the media ever played on America was confusing class issues with race issues.

And so it goes.
 
2013-05-20 04:07:05 AM

Yes please: sendtodave: Or, put even more simply, an extra dollar improves well-being for someone in poverty far more than it will help a Fortune 500 CEO. That supports the political argument for promoting income redistribution - more money appears to do more good for people who are poor.

Most economists and political scientists would agree that something that makes a lot of people happy for a short time isn't usually the best way to run a country.  If you took all the money from the top 1% and redistributed it to everyone else, how far so you think it would go?  Maybe a couple thousand dollars each?  How much difference would that make, and at what expense?

sendtodave: And it's obvious that it does not need to be tied to labor, since those with the most wealth tend to labor the least.

I guess it depends on how you define labor, but those with the least wealth probably labor less than the wealthiest.  Unless you're talking about, you know, going into labor.


The article said that, not me.  I'd scrap the whole damned system if I could.  I wouldn't take from the rich and give to the poor, I'd obliterate the very concepts.

But, working within capitalism?  Whatever allows everyone to get past that point of struggling to make ends meet, past eh business of worrying and scraping, and on the business of living.

We have an investor class that makes more than anyone else.  I dunno, give everyone in the country shares in US companies, how's that?

I did the math a while back; it's probably still accurate enough.  Assume your salary is $50,000 per year.  Waaay more than the poor make in the US.

If you had invested $50k in google when it went IPO, you would have made, approximately, $50k per year.  And you would pay less in taxes!

Capitalism favors the rich (duh).  Should it?

And I'd define "labor" as what bosses hire workers to do.
 
2013-05-20 04:09:27 AM

Gyrfalcon: TopoGigo: robohobo: TopoGigo:

<snip>

Nobody cares about white trash because they're white and we all know that white people are never discriminated against. If they're poor, it's because they're stupid or rednecks or meth-heads or inbred; and they're all mean racist KKKers, every last one, and for no other reason than they're just too stupid to learn otherwise. Certainly not because wealthy educated whites discriminate against them. Certainly NOT.

/My great-granddaddy was a ridgerunner in 1863.
//Now the Virginia Blairs don't talk to us any more.


***DISCLAIMER***
I don't want to sound like an idiot college-aged "anarchist" anti-corporate punk rocker here. Please forgive me as I descend into madness for a second.

The moneyed elites in this country love, I mean LOVE, when we think like this. Black people are discriminated against. Mexicans are discriminated against. Hillbillies are discriminated against. Every oppressed minority does their damnedest to oppress the others. Meanwhile, we're all so distracted by our tribalism and xenophobia that we fail to notice...if your family has been poor for more than two generations, you have almost no chance to succeed in life. The people in power run a rigged game, and all of our pockets are mysteriously getting lighter while our backs are turned. Treat politics just like you treat a carnie barker. If you gawk like a rube, the roustabouts will pick your pockets.

/Paranoid socialist mode OFF
 
2013-05-20 04:09:30 AM

TopoGigo: What in the holy living fark are we going to do then? Are we going to let people starve? Are we going to create a perpetual underclass of servants who all live in the downstairs part of the homes of the wealthy, like Victorian England? Will we structure the world so that everyone retires at 30? Or will we guarantee a minimum income for everyone?


I guess it depends on who is in charge.

Oh, it's the wealthy businessmen who are in charge?  I see.

...

I'm going with "Victorian England."
 
2013-05-20 04:10:19 AM

quatchi: The greatest trick the media ever played on America was confusing class issues with race issues.

And so it goes.


I wish I could "smart" this twice.
 
2013-05-20 04:13:54 AM

TopoGigo: sendtodave: http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/04/29/finally-proof-that-mon e y-buys-happiness-sort-of

First, it is important to point out they did not plot income dollar-for-dollar against happiness measures in the above graphs. Rather, they used a logarithmic scale, with income doubling at each interval. In other words, with that horizontal axis stretched out, the graphs would show happiness increasing more quickly for poorer countries and poorer people than for those on the richer end of the spectrum.

Or, put even more simply, an extra dollar improves well-being for someone in poverty far more than it will help a Fortune 500 CEO. That supports the political argument for promoting income redistribution - more money appears to do more good for people who are poor.

Money is just a medium of exchange, and wealth is just the accumulation of that over and above that one needs.

And it's obvious that it does not need to be tied to labor, since those with the most wealth tend to labor the least.

...

Guaranteed basic income as a solution?

Some day we'll wake up and find that we only have useful jobs for a small percentage of people. We're not even that far away; mechanization and efficiency keep reducing the need for human labor. What in the holy living fark are we going to do then? Are we going to let people starve? Are we going to create a perpetual underclass of servants who all live in the downstairs part of the homes of the wealthy, like Victorian England? Will we structure the world so that everyone retires at 30? Or will we guarantee a minimum income for everyone? We really need to start thinking about this soon. If you count disability, long term unemployment, and short term unemployment, you're at something like 20% right now. How long until that number approaches 50%? 75%? 90%?


Couple that with the birth rate of blacks being almost twice as high as whites, and hispanics a bit higher, and we're looking at a clusterfark of people needing handouts. It's a cultural issue. No one can solve another culture's problem. Making people with money subsidize  the lifestyles of another isn't the answer. We have waaaay to many people, not enough work, and probably. not enough time.
 
2013-05-20 04:17:13 AM
Or, Apple.

i.imgur.com

So, again, how's this:  Want to do business as a multinational in the US?  Sell your product and become rich?  Great.  Everyone gets stock.

Kinda like how those rugged bootstrappy people up in Alaska get a few grand every year from the oil companies.
 
2013-05-20 04:19:32 AM

robohobo: Couple that with the birth rate of blacks being almost twice as high as whites, and hispanics a bit higher, and we're looking at a clusterfark of people needing handouts. It's a cultural issue. No one can solve another culture's problem. Making people with money subsidize  the lifestyles of another isn't the answer. We have waaaay to many people, not enough work, and probably. not enough time.


That's your solution?  "We need less poor people?"

Actually, no, that's not even a solution.  That blaming people for being born poor.

Must be a just world you live in.
 
2013-05-20 04:25:29 AM

robohobo: Couple that with the birth rate of blacks being almost twice as high as whites, and hispanics a bit higher, and we're looking at a clusterfark of people needing handouts. It's a cultural issue. No one can solve another culture's problem. Making people with money subsidize  the lifestyles of another isn't the answer. We have waaaay to many people, not enough work, and probably. not enough time.


Look at the racial breakdown  birth rates of unmarried women below the poverty line and the results are even more striking (and alarming, if you're the type of person who allows himself to admit to being alarmed by that sort of thing).  There are obviously a ton of different factors that go into it, but "culture of acceptance" is probably number one, and it's the one that epidemiologists can't fix.
 
2013-05-20 04:27:53 AM

robohobo: Couple that with the birth rate of blacks being almost twice as high as whites, and hispanics a bit higher,

 Regular people
 
2013-05-20 04:28:49 AM

sendtodave: robohobo: Couple that with the birth rate of blacks being almost twice as high as whites, and hispanics a bit higher, and we're looking at a clusterfark of people needing handouts. It's a cultural issue. No one can solve another culture's problem. Making people with money subsidize  the lifestyles of another isn't the answer. We have waaaay to many people, not enough work, and probably. not enough time.

That's your solution?  "We need less poor people?"

Actually, no, that's not even a solution.  That blaming people for being born poor.

Must be a just world you live in.


Not at all. I grew up poor. I  knew a lot of people who ended up taking jobs they claimed made them happy or 'fulfilled' them, yet neither was true. They did what they wanted to do and damned the consequences. They complain about the poor pay, and biatch about societynot properly valuing what they do. Art is not a real job. Philosophy and social science is not a real job. Working retail so you can have a lot of free time is not a real job. Sure, it's nice and requires nothing, but it's not a real job. I took work that I find incredibly boring, pays extremely well, yet doesn't require 20 hours a day. There's a balance. My free time makes me happy and fulfilled. Just because one likes what they do shouldn't mean it pays all their bills and affords them every luxury they want.
 
2013-05-20 04:29:33 AM

sendtodave: google


Call it $100 per share at IPO.  Worth $900 now.

Cato says that we spend $20K per year per poor person on "fighting poverty."  No idea how accurate that is, but $20K is a nice number.

No withdrawals?  About $180K in eight years.

We love capitalism!  Our government should invest for us.  All of us.
 
2013-05-20 04:30:25 AM

robohobo: Couple that with the birth rate of blacks being almost twice as high as whites, and hispanics a bit higher, and we're looking at a clusterfark of people needing handouts. It's a cultural issue. No one can solve another culture's problem. Making people with money subsidize the lifestyles of another isn't the answer. We have waaaay to many people, not enough work, and probably. not enough time.


Now control that for income and education over three generations, then filter by geography. I'm willing to bet that a good bit of that disparity vanishes in a puff of smoke.

Here's the secret: it has nothing to do with race.* Our cities are failing, and the generationally poor are f*cked. It so happens, mostly because of Jim Crow and segregation, that black people have more generational poverty, less access to education, and disproportionally live in cities. It also so happens that many recent immigrants are generationally poor and poorly educated. Stop looking at race, start looking at class. Also, stop being a racist and/or a troll.

*No, I'm not saying that racism is dead. Institutional racism is almost dead, with the very notable exceptions of the legal system and the finance sector of the economy. I am saying that it plays a far smaller role than institutional classism.
 
2013-05-20 04:31:26 AM

robohobo: sendtodave: robohobo: Couple that with the birth rate of blacks being almost twice as high as whites, and hispanics a bit higher, and we're looking at a clusterfark of people needing handouts. It's a cultural issue. No one can solve another culture's problem. Making people with money subsidize  the lifestyles of another isn't the answer. We have waaaay to many people, not enough work, and probably. not enough time.

That's your solution?  "We need less poor people?"

Actually, no, that's not even a solution.  That blaming people for being born poor.

Must be a just world you live in.

Not at all. I grew up poor. I  knew a lot of people who ended up taking jobs they claimed made them happy or 'fulfilled' them, yet neither was true. They did what they wanted to do and damned the consequences. They complain about the poor pay, and biatch about societynot properly valuing what they do. Art is not a real job. Philosophy and social science is not a real job. Working retail so you can have a lot of free time is not a real job. Sure, it's nice and requires nothing, but it's not a real job. I took work that I find incredibly boring, pays extremely well, yet doesn't require 20 hours a day. There's a balance. My free time makes me happy and fulfilled. Just because one likes what they do shouldn't mean it pays all their bills and affords them every luxury they want.


That's a whole 'nother thing.

"Last place aversion."

But you were talking about how minorities have too many kids or something?
 
2013-05-20 04:32:52 AM

robohobo: sendtodave: robohobo: Couple that with the birth rate of blacks being almost twice as high as whites, and hispanics a bit higher, and we're looking at a clusterfark of people needing handouts. It's a cultural issue. No one can solve another culture's problem. Making people with money subsidize  the lifestyles of another isn't the answer. We have waaaay to many people, not enough work, and probably. not enough time.

That's your solution?  "We need less poor people?"

Actually, no, that's not even a solution.  That blaming people for being born poor.

Must be a just world you live in.

Not at all. I grew up poor. I  knew a lot of people who ended up taking jobs they claimed made them happy or 'fulfilled' them, yet neither was true. They did what they wanted to do and damned the consequences. They complain about the poor pay, and biatch about societynot properly valuing what they do. Art is not a real job. Philosophy and social science is not a real job. Working retail so you can have a lot of free time is not a real job. Sure, it's nice and requires nothing, but it's not a real job. I took work that I find incredibly boring, pays extremely well, yet doesn't require 20 hours a day. There's a balance. My free time makes me happy and fulfilled. Just because one likes what they do shouldn't mean it pays all their bills and affords them every luxury they want.


Fortunately, there are lots of jobs just like that lying about for everyone, if only they'd give up their hopes and dreams in exchange for a nice income for an honest day's work. Oh, wait.
 
2013-05-20 04:33:23 AM

TopoGigo: Institutional racism is almost dead, with the very notable exceptions of the legal system and the finance sector of the economy.


That always confused me.  The legal system is supposed to be the most blind to color (or anything).

And yet, it seems to be our most biased branch of government.
 
2013-05-20 04:35:32 AM

robohobo: Art is not a real job. Philosophy and social science is not a real job. Working retail so you can have a lot of free time is not a real job.


You grew up poor surrounded by artists, philosophers, social scientists, and people working retail(because of all the free time)?

wow.
 
2013-05-20 04:37:23 AM

sendtodave: robohobo: sendtodave: robohobo: Couple that with the birth rate of blacks being almost twice as high as whites, and hispanics a bit higher, and we're looking at a clusterfark of people needing handouts. It's a cultural issue. No one can solve another culture's problem. Making people with money subsidize  the lifestyles of another isn't the answer. We have waaaay to many people, not enough work, and probably. not enough time.

That's your solution?  "We need less poor people?"

Actually, no, that's not even a solution.  That blaming people for being born poor.

Must be a just world you live in.

Not at all. I grew up poor. I  knew a lot of people who ended up taking jobs they claimed made them happy or 'fulfilled' them, yet neither was true. They did what they wanted to do and damned the consequences. They complain about the poor pay, and biatch about societynot properly valuing what they do. Art is not a real job. Philosophy and social science is not a real job. Working retail so you can have a lot of free time is not a real job. Sure, it's nice and requires nothing, but it's not a real job. I took work that I find incredibly boring, pays extremely well, yet doesn't require 20 hours a day. There's a balance. My free time makes me happy and fulfilled. Just because one likes what they do shouldn't mean it pays all their bills and affords them every luxury they want.

That's a whole 'nother thing.

"Last place aversion."

But you were talking about how minorities have too many kids or something?


Minorities are having too many children. Do you dispute the cdc? Children are expensive. Some groups of people have more than they can afford, requiring others to pay for them. Contributing to the problem. It's almost like they're tossing wood on the fire.
 
2013-05-20 04:38:57 AM

log_jammin: robohobo: Art is not a real job. Philosophy and social science is not a real job. Working retail so you can have a lot of free time is not a real job.

You grew up poor surrounded by artists, philosophers, social scientists, and people working retail(because of all the free timeunder a bridge with your family of trolls?

wow.


FTFY
 
2013-05-20 04:40:55 AM
"So yes, go get that law degree. But if you do, ask yourself if the only option is to defend the rich and powerful, like I do"

FTFY, Mr President.
 
2013-05-20 04:41:59 AM

TopoGigo: FTFY


It would appear so.
 
2013-05-20 04:43:26 AM

robohobo: Do you dispute the cdc?


I dispute that the data is useful. I dispute that we should use the measurements of that study to support any statements, because skin color is the least useful data point one could choose to measure.
 
2013-05-20 04:44:09 AM

sendtodave: sendtodave: google

Call it $100 per share at IPO.  Worth $900 now.

Cato says that we spend $20K per year per poor person on "fighting poverty."  No idea how accurate that is, but $20K is a nice number.

No withdrawals?  About $180K in eight years.

We love capitalism!  Our government should invest for us.  All of us.


While yours is an interesting idea, it's so deeply flawed on so many levels that it's almost comical.  Give someone in poverty $500 in stock, and they'll turn right around and sell it to whoever is willing to buy it.  Just steal the money from the rich and eliminate brokerage fees.  I suppose you could impose a one year no-sell clause, and in that time they'd either starve to death or need additional subsidy.  But who are you to tell them what they can or can't do with "their" money?  I think we've heard that one before.  And even if you could work around those issues, there's still the problem that most stocks don't do what Apple does, so the vast majority of people's $500 at the start of the year will turn into $505 or less at the end.  Probably less, if smart investors realize there are millions of otherwise poor people holding stock they'll be willing to sell for the price of a warm meal.
 
2013-05-20 04:45:29 AM

sendtodave: TopoGigo: Institutional racism is almost dead, with the very notable exceptions of the legal system and the finance sector of the economy.

That always confused me.  The legal system is supposed to be the most blind to color (or anything).

And yet, it seems to be our most biased branch of government.


Oh, it doesn't confuse me in the least. It depresses me, but it doesn't confuse or surprise me. Of course, there's a fair amount of classism mixed in there, too, but at least in the legal system, the racism weighs more heavily.
 
2013-05-20 04:46:39 AM

Yes please: sendtodave: sendtodave: google

Call it $100 per share at IPO.  Worth $900 now.

Cato says that we spend $20K per year per poor person on "fighting poverty."  No idea how accurate that is, but $20K is a nice number.

No withdrawals?  About $180K in eight years.

We love capitalism!  Our government should invest for us.  All of us.

While yours is an interesting idea, it's so deeply flawed on so many levels that it's almost comical.  Give someone in poverty $500 in stock, and they'll turn right around and sell it to whoever is willing to buy it.  Just steal the money from the rich and eliminate brokerage fees.  I suppose you could impose a one year no-sell clause, and in that time they'd either starve to death or need additional subsidy.  But who are you to tell them what they can or can't do with "their" money?  I think we've heard that one before.  And even if you could work around those issues, there's still the problem that most stocks don't do what Apple does, so the vast majority of people's $500 at the start of the year will turn into $505 or less at the end.  Probably less, if smart investors realize there are millions of otherwise poor people holding stock they'll be willing to sell for the price of a warm meal.


Once again, the sandwich-heavy portfolio pays off for the hungry investor.
 
2013-05-20 04:48:09 AM

Radioactive Ass: Summercat: My head assplode.

Why? You do know you can admire the person as a person yet still disagree with their politics and public policies right? Conversely you can also dislike the person as a person but agree with their politics. Take Newt Gingrich or Charlie Rangel for example. There are plenty of people in their respective parties that think that they are pretty scummy as people in their personal lives but agree with their politics and public policies. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive by any means. Rational people can separate the two.


TPOC, however, does not come accross as rational at any given point. It'd be like Bachman suddenly saying that Obamacare is a wonderful thing.
 
2013-05-20 04:56:32 AM

TopoGigo: robohobo: Do you dispute the cdc?

I dispute that the data is useful. I dispute that we should use the measurements of that study to support any statements, because skin color is the least useful data point one could choose to measure.


Skin color isn't a data point.  It's a variable, and it's important because it's the variable most closely related to culture you can identify with the available data.  Until they start including parents' income on birth certificates or make "white trash" its own checkbox, that information is harder to come by.
 
2013-05-20 04:56:33 AM

Yes please: While yours is an interesting idea, it's so deeply flawed on so many levels that it's almost comical.  Give someone in poverty $500 in stock, and they'll turn right around and sell it to whoever is willing to buy it.  Just steal the money from the rich and eliminate brokerage fees.  I suppose you could impose a one year no-sell clause, and in that time they'd either starve to death or need additional subsidy.  But who are you to tell them what they can or can't do with "their" money?  I think we've heard that one before.  And even if you could work around those issues, there's still the problem that most stocks don't do what Apple does, so the vast majority of people's $500 at the start of the year will turn into $505 or less at the end.  Probably less, if smart investors realize there are millions of otherwise poor people holding stock they'll be willing to sell for the price of a warm meal.


Oh, the poor people wouldn't control the stocks, the government would.  Or, the banks.  Kinda like how everyone gets insurance with Obamacare, and the private sector reaps the rewards of a very large, forced pool.

It's probably unworkable.  But we already rely in the stock market to fund our retirements, why not just... start earlier?  With the companies that do business, or the government, seeding it.

And how much would the US government need to set aside to invest, per person, to give everyone a basic income?

A guess a more rational question is "why doesn't our government invest in companies and try to turn profit at all?"
 
2013-05-20 04:59:35 AM

TopoGigo: Oh, it doesn't confuse me in the least. It depresses me, but it doesn't confuse or surprise me. Of course, there's a fair amount of classism mixed in there, too, but at least in the legal system, the racism weighs more heavily.


Racism, classism, sexism (both ways).

I dunno, for me to not be confused, I'd have to stop believing in the ideal of a fair judiciary, which would make me also depressed.  Did we just not design it correctly?
 
2013-05-20 05:03:49 AM

Yes please: TopoGigo: robohobo: Do you dispute the cdc?

I dispute that the data is useful. I dispute that we should use the measurements of that study to support any statements, because skin color is the least useful data point one could choose to measure.

Skin color isn't a data point.  It's a variable, and it's important because it's the variable most closely related to culture you can identify with the available data.  Until they start including parents' income on birth certificates or make "white trash" its own checkbox, that information is harder to come by.


Just because the data aren't readily available isn't a good excuse to measure the wrong thing. Don't get me wrong, these studies are good for some things, just not for this. If I measured the lifetime incomes of all left-handed people without controlling for the percentage of people who work in factories with right-handed mangles, I wouldn't be getting useful information. If I measured the STD rates of homosexual males without controlling for the percentage of them who are married or are forced by society to seek out sexual partners in bus station restrooms, I'd be getting bad information.
 
2013-05-20 05:06:57 AM

sendtodave: TopoGigo: Oh, it doesn't confuse me in the least. It depresses me, but it doesn't confuse or surprise me. Of course, there's a fair amount of classism mixed in there, too, but at least in the legal system, the racism weighs more heavily.

Racism, classism, sexism (both ways).

I dunno, for me to not be confused, I'd have to stop believing in the ideal of a fair judiciary, which would make me also depressed.  Did we just not design it correctly?


We designed it as fairly as we could have, given that humans are genetically predisposed to tribalism and xenophobia, as well as being so good at pattern recognition that we see patterns even when they aren't there. If you want to control the human factor, you're going to have to discover extraterrestrial life so we have a bigger "them" to define out of our tribe.
 
2013-05-20 05:07:14 AM

Gulper Eel: Dusk-You-n-Me: That clip was inspiring.

He's good at that. The actions the president has taken after giving fine speeches are generally less than inspiring.


This, 100 times.
 
2013-05-20 05:23:06 AM

TopoGigo: If I measured the STD rates of homosexual males without controlling for the percentage of them who are married or are forced by society to seek out sexual partners in bus station restrooms, I'd be getting bad information.


I suppose that depends on what you want that information for.  If you're trying to figure out  how many doses of penicillin you need to order for the clinic, you really just need to know the overall rate.  If you want to play sociopolitical games with the data, you'd need more delineation.  The simple fact is that being born poor and having a child under the age of 18 are major risk factors for generational poverty, and it's impossible to completely extricate them.  They're much larger risk factors than race alone, but the black and Hispanic communities have problems with teen pregnancy.  To ignore that doesn't help anything.  If you just exclude that as a factor because the data isn't clean enough for your liking you're building your sandcastle at low tide.
 
2013-05-20 05:29:06 AM

sendtodave: Want to do business as a multinational in the US?  Sell your product and become rich?  Great.  Everyone gets stock.


That's a pretty standard benefits package in the US, to the point of being essentially universal.  Why do you think this is some new idea, exactly?  Never had a job that didn't involve an oil fryer?
 
2013-05-20 05:29:49 AM

Yes please: TopoGigo: If I measured the STD rates of homosexual males without controlling for the percentage of them who are married or are forced by society to seek out sexual partners in bus station restrooms, I'd be getting bad information.

I suppose that depends on what you want that information for.  If you're trying to figure out  how many doses of penicillin you need to order for the clinic, you really just need to know the overall rate.  If you want to play sociopolitical games with the data, you'd need more delineation.  The simple fact is that being born poor and having a child under the age of 18 are major risk factors for generational poverty, and it's impossible to completely extricate them.  They're much larger risk factors than race alone, but the black and Hispanic communities have problems with teen pregnancy.  To ignore that doesn't help anything.  If you just exclude that as a factor because the data isn't clean enough for your liking you're building your sandcastle at low tide.


I'm saying that without controlling for generational income level and education, the information is next to useless. Are black and hispanic women having more children than white women of similar economic backgrounds? Maybe. Maybe not. Without controlling for those factors, you have no idea how much of the gap is due to "culture" and how much is due to class. So, if you plan to actually do something about the problem, you have to have properly controlled datasets. If you just want to make racist and alarmist predictions, the data we have works just fine.
 
2013-05-20 05:32:55 AM
As Yes please noted, not every company is Apple or the Goog.  But, if you use google as the measure, (and I didn't really fark up the math, which is very possible), it's interesting.

20K a year per poor person spent by the government, instead used to buy google stock, and give the poor person $40K instead of 20K...


cost per year20000living "wage"40000per shareshares boughttotal sharesprofit for yearminus "wages"IPO100200200.00-$20,000-$60,0002005200100300.00$60,000$20,00020 0645044.44444444344.44$155,000$115,000200750040384.44$192,222$152,2222 00870028.57142857413.02$289,111$249,111200935057.14285714470.16$164,55 6$124,556201060033.33333333503.49$302,095$262,095201160033.33333333536 .83$322,095$282,095201265030.76923077567.59$368,937$328,937201390022.2 2222222589.82$530,835$490,835Total$1,964,851
The government makes $2 mil, and has $40k per year to give as a "basic wage" left over.
 
2013-05-20 05:33:22 AM

Jim_Callahan: sendtodave: Want to do business as a multinational in the US?  Sell your product and become rich?  Great.  Everyone gets stock.

That's a pretty standard benefits package in the US, to the point of being essentially universal.  Why do you think this is some new idea, exactly?  Never had a job that didn't involve an oil fryer?


Seriously? I think you're delusional if you think that stock options, a matched contribution 401k, or for that matter any semblance of a subsidized retirement package, are so standard as to be essentially universal. I think perhaps you have no idea of the percentage of jobs available that meet your criteria.
 
2013-05-20 05:33:31 AM

Jim_Callahan: sendtodave: Want to do business as a multinational in the US?  Sell your product and become rich?  Great.  Everyone gets stock.

That's a pretty standard benefits package in the US, to the point of being essentially universal.  Why do you think this is some new idea, exactly?  Never had a job that didn't involve an oil fryer?


No, he means  everyone everyone.  I don't think he understands how stock works or where it gets value.  Or what his plan would do to the economy or employment.
 
2013-05-20 05:33:32 AM

sendtodave: As Yes please noted, not every company is Apple or the Goog.  But, if you use google as the measure, (and I didn't really fark up the math, which is very possible), it's interesting.

20K a year per poor person spent by the government, instead used to buy google stock, and give the poor person $40K instead of 20K...


cost per year20000living "wage"40000per shareshares boughttotal sharesprofit for yearminus "wages"IPO100200200.00-$20,000-$60,0002005200100300.00$60,000$20,00020 0645044.44444444344.44$155,000$115,000200750040384.44$192,222$152,2222 00870028.57142857413.02$289,111$249,111200935057.14285714470.16$164,55 6$124,556201060033.33333333503.49$302,095$262,095201160033.33333333536 .83$322,095$282,095201265030.76923077567.59$368,937$328,937201390022.2 2222222589.82$530,835$490,835Total$1,964,851
The government makes $2 mil, and has $40k per year to give as a "basic wage" left over.


Well, that didn't format very well.
 
2013-05-20 05:34:48 AM

Jim_Callahan: sendtodave: Want to do business as a multinational in the US?  Sell your product and become rich?  Great.  Everyone gets stock.

That's a pretty standard benefits package in the US, to the point of being essentially universal.  Why do you think this is some new idea, exactly?  Never had a job that didn't involve an oil fryer?


We're talking about the people that work the oil fryers, smart guy.

Or the ones that aren't even that lucky.

They should get subsidized by the "Job Creators," too, I think.
 
2013-05-20 05:37:21 AM
i10.photobucket.com
 
2013-05-20 05:42:03 AM
Dammitsomuch.  This one.

i10.photobucket.com
 
2013-05-20 05:47:12 AM

Yes please: No, he means  everyone everyone.  I don't think he understands how stock works or where it gets value.  Or what his plan would do to the economy or employment.


Scarcity is a feature, not a bug.   Yeah, I know.

I guess we can go back to "tax the rich" and see if that works.

The economy is already broken for many, if not most, of Americans.
 
2013-05-20 05:52:33 AM

TopoGigo: Are black and hispanic women having more children than white women of similar economic backgrounds? Maybe. Maybe not. Without controlling for those factors, you have no idea how much of the gap is due to "culture" and how much is due to class.


We have some of that data, at least when it comes to teen births or Medicaid and welfare births.  Blacks and Hispanics outpace whites by more than double.  Those at the numbers you should care about.  If Judy the black lawyer has one child or five it doesn't matter much, even if Susan the white accountant always has two.  Those people aren't the ones we're concerned with when we're talking about generational poverty.  When such a large proportion of minorities are on government assistance, and that's also the population most likely to have more children, it does skew the data.  But it skews it so that the problem seems smaller when you're just looking at overall birth rates by race.  Yes, poor people have more children than the rich, but that effect is magnified when you're talking about minorities.  Is that the root or a symptom of a larger problem?  I couldn't tell you, but it's sure as hell not helping.
 
2013-05-20 05:52:47 AM
Eh, I'm and idiot.  that one is wrong, too.

Fark it, time for another beer.
 
2013-05-20 06:00:59 AM

sendtodave: Dammitsomuch.  This one.

[i10.photobucket.com image 628x367]


What the hell are we even looking at here?  Unless you're planning on selling the shares every year you need to be looking at dividends, not stock price.  And if you could just buy a stock and be guaranteed it would double in value every year or two no one would ever be poor.

I'd write this off as a troll if you didn't seem so impassioned and dedicated to it.  But if it is, bonus points for making spreadsheets.
 
2013-05-20 06:14:38 AM

Yes please: sendtodave: Dammitsomuch.  This one.

[i10.photobucket.com image 628x367]

What the hell are we even looking at here?  Unless you're planning on selling the shares every year you need to be looking at dividends, not stock price.  And if you could just buy a stock and be guaranteed it would double in value every year or two no one would ever be poor.

I'd write this off as a troll if you didn't seem so impassioned and dedicated to it.  But if it is, bonus points for making spreadsheets.


Yeah, it's wrong on a whole bunch of levels, not the least of which is the fact that there isn't enough demand for capital. The general idea, though, is that the government could, if it chose to, become the engine of society. The feds could own the land, the factories, and the stores, employ enough people to run them, and use the profits to subsidize everyone else's needs. Is it a good idea? Fark no, but what we have isn't working out so hot, either. As it currently stands, the demand for labor is far, far lower than the supply. If wages don't rise dramatically, allowing people to have free time in which to create and innovate, our economy will grind to a halt as demand falls even lower due to automation and efficiency. We can't run an economy based on selling foreign-made luxuries to people who have to put them on the credit card forever; eventually the house of cards collapses.
 
2013-05-20 06:21:19 AM
This really is a different era, and I do believe there's more opportunity for black people to get into the middle class and higher through education and work. It's important that the first black president would convey the message that these opportunities are now available and it might be time to move on from the racism of the past since this is the least racist this country (or any country) has ever been and the younger generations aren't caught up in the battles of the past.
 
2013-05-20 06:34:38 AM

TopoGigo: Yeah, it's wrong on a whole bunch of levels, not the least of which is the fact that there isn't enough demand for capital. The general idea, though, is that the government could, if it chose to, become the engine of society. The feds could own the land, the factories, and the stores, employ enough people to run them, and use the profits to subsidize everyone else's needs.


Yeah, too fuzzy headed right now.

anyway, I was thinking more of a mix, perhaps state capitalism.  the government doesn't need to outright nationalize the companies (though it could, I guess).  Just needs to make them profit share.

If Steve jobs was paid in stock, why can't the poor be?
 
2013-05-20 06:45:25 AM

sendtodave: TopoGigo: Yeah, it's wrong on a whole bunch of levels, not the least of which is the fact that there isn't enough demand for capital. The general idea, though, is that the government could, if it chose to, become the engine of society. The feds could own the land, the factories, and the stores, employ enough people to run them, and use the profits to subsidize everyone else's needs.

Yeah, too fuzzy headed right now.

anyway, I was thinking more of a mix, perhaps state capitalism.  the government doesn't need to outright nationalize the companies (though it could, I guess).  Just needs to make them profit share.

If Steve jobs was paid in stock, why can't the poor be?


The two biggest reasons would be the lack of demand for capital, and the potential for widespread fraud and abuse. I like the idealism of it, though.
 
2013-05-20 06:50:12 AM
It applies to all whining excuse-makers. Obama makes a valid point, but nobody offers up more whining excuses than billionaires caught with their hands in the cookie jar. I didn't know. Rogue lieutenants. My orders misinterpreted. I was given bad information. I'm sorry that you don't understand the role of job creators. Jimmy Carter.

Wake me up when a president tells the heads of Big Banking to stop making whiny excuses.
 
2013-05-20 06:57:25 AM
Just arrived. That was actually quite inspiring and uplifting. No complaints or criticisms from my corner. Bravo....
 
2013-05-20 06:57:39 AM
does this mean the "Attractive and successful African-American" filter is being removed?
 
2013-05-20 07:05:15 AM

TheJoe03: This really is a different era, and I do believe there's more opportunity for black people to get into the middle class and higher through education and work. It's important that the first black president would convey the message that these opportunities are now available and it might be time to move on from the racism of the past since this is the least racist this country (or any country) has ever been and the younger generations aren't caught up in the battles of the past.


The flip side is that wages have been stagnant for a long time and it's harder to get into the middle class, period. If your education was poor and your work experience has been McDonalds, even more so.

It's a strange time. College tuition has reached ludicrous levels, yet there are all kinds of excellent free online learning resources, if you know about them. But it's almost impossible to get established without a degree, and that takes big money, which means you're already in the (upper) middle class.
 
2013-05-20 07:05:23 AM

stonelotus: does this mean the "Attractive and successful African-American" filter is being removed?


Yes. It means exactly that.
Moron.
 
2013-05-20 07:21:02 AM

Lionel Mandrake: That stuff's complicated. It's easier to say "it's your own damn fault" and go back to the nice job you got with your college education provided by the college-educated parents who raised you in a safe suburban neighborhood and didn't do drugs and signed you up for kindergarten and little league and took you to the doctor. After all, if you can make it, why can't some kid from a broken home in a violent slum raised by an abusive drug addict who spends more time in jail than at home?


It is complicated, but you are going to assume everyone who doesn't agree with you must have gotten all those things you listed?

You don't see how you are oversimplifying it?
 
2013-05-20 07:29:35 AM

BunkyBrewman: ecmoRandomNumbers: TuteTibiImperes: Here's a better article with actual coverage instead of just a video link:   Obama Morehouse Speech

I don't see anything controversial about his remarks.  He's correct that with an increasingly globalized economy there is always going to be someone out there who had it worse than you growing up, and who overcame it.  The message to stop making excuses and start making progress is a good one, and it also fits well with his urging to give back to your own communities to help raise them up.

Cosby got a smackdown for it.

...and the 'Cos didn't miss a beat.  His message has always remained the same regardless of a few distractors.


Yeah. I'm going to take seriously a guy who made a fortune out of creating the biggest black stereotypes since Song of the South.

s3.amazonaws.com
Wubba yoube tobbin aboubbuh?
 
2013-05-20 07:31:00 AM

Biological Ali: What people like this don't realize is that not only do normal people see right through their bullshiat, they actually have even less respect for them than they would for actual overt racists, because those guys are at least up-front about it


He is yup front about it with other "races".  I think he is just getting warmed up.
 
2013-05-20 07:36:58 AM

TopoGigo: stonelotus: does this mean the "Attractive and successful African-American" filter is being removed?

Yes. It means exactly that.
Moron.


hey man, don't let it hold you back.
 
2013-05-20 07:44:52 AM

Lionel Mandrake: ...or bringing up feral pigs


Got nuthinm' eh?

Color me shocked.
 
2013-05-20 07:55:28 AM

TopoGigo: The feds could own the land, the factories, and the stores, employ enough people to run them, and use the profits to subsidize everyone else's needs. Is it a good idea? Fark no, but what we have isn't working out so hot, either.


At least the current system ensures we won't run out of toilet paper.
 
2013-05-20 08:04:01 AM
Nice try Obama,everything he mentioned was true, but the money making shakedown machines of Sharpton, Jackson and a host of others have been far to effective inculcating the "Black as victim" mentality on both white and black people for over the last 40 years to have any affect on the vast majority of those he was referring to.
There's just too much invested in the status quo to change things now. Sad but true.
 
2013-05-20 08:05:58 AM

TV's Vinnie: Yeah. I'm going to take seriously a guy who made a fortune out of creating the biggest black stereotypes since Song of the South.


Wubba yoube tobbin aboubbuh?


Now ask yourself if either Uncle Remus or Mushmouth is the kind of negative stereotype that makes people cross the street when they see a young black man walking towards them.
 
2013-05-20 08:07:39 AM

Gulper Eel: TopoGigo: The feds could own the land, the factories, and the stores, employ enough people to run them, and use the profits to subsidize everyone else's needs. Is it a good idea? Fark no, but what we have isn't working out so hot, either.

At least the current system ensures we won't run out of toilet paper.


Well, you could aalways use those stock certificates.
 
2013-05-20 08:16:35 AM

phillydrifter: I_C_Weener: No time like the present to start. Just like my doc said about quitting smoking.

5 days tobacco free (that includes camel Snus).

Use nicorette, you can get a 75% off coupon online (price dropped from $50 to $12 for 100 pieces) they're a royal pain in the ass to open so you're gonna spend time getting those f*ckers out of their mass assembly lined sheets. (perforated sheets of 2x5, after you break one off you peel the paper back, that leaves foil which you need a knife to open)


Do you have a link to that coupon? My wife has been considering the gum for a while now. Would be nice to give her an option to quit.
 
2013-05-20 08:17:27 AM
Good: Saying "good speech, Obama. I agree."

Bad: Using this to justify your own racism openly in a public forum.
 
2013-05-20 08:24:31 AM

LasersHurt: Good: Saying "good speech, Obama. I agree."

Bad: Using this to justify your own racism openly in a public forum.


i2.ytimg.com
 
2013-05-20 08:25:21 AM
Shouldn't he have made this speech at a zebra college, he's such a great roll model isn't he
Fast and Furious
Solyndra
0bamacare
IRS targeting
Government over reach
AP snooping
Benghazi
Thanks 0bama voters
 
2013-05-20 08:33:05 AM
This excuses all those years of me being racist and calling black people lazy and dumb.


Right?
 
2013-05-20 09:10:09 AM

Lionel Mandrake: Princess Ryans Knickers: gilgigamesh: At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.

That begins and ends with the current generation. You don't see me blaming people for one ancestor being an indentured servant and another, centuries ago, being a slave do you? No, because it has jack all to do with today. People need to grow up and take responsibility for themselves.

Right!  All obstacles completely disappeared after the slaves were freed!!

/this is what republitards actually believe.


Awwww. Look who missed the point.
 
2013-05-20 09:43:12 AM

Princess Ryans Knickers: gilgigamesh: At the same time, you have to acknowledge how and why that cycle started.

That begins and ends with the current generation. You don't see me blaming people for one ancestor being an indentured servant and another, centuries ago, being a slave do you? No, because it has jack all to do with today. People need to grow up and take responsibility for themselves.


Spoken like a true suburban middle-class princess!

And don't let anyone tell you that things were easier for you growing up, nobody knows how much pain there is in knowing that your clothes are a season out of date and that your braces make you look like "brace-face"! Only True Americans can overcome such obstacles. The poors can learn a lot from yoos!
 
2013-05-20 11:54:25 AM
African-Americans are making great strides at Starfleet,
 
2013-05-20 12:15:59 PM
Read books like Disintegration. Black people are getting out of historical poverty more than ever. We're making progress slowly, which is the only way to make progress after you have been culturally programmed to live in broken families and be first fired/last hired. It's not like we have had a lot of time to generate familial wealth.

The truth is that there is some pretty clear stratification between the black folks that are so distrustful of white folks that they avoid "acting white" and those that don't really do that. I definitely know as the one black kid who talked with a Standard American English dialect in a mostly-black school when I went to one for a couple of years.

I say the same things that President Obama does, but I realize (as I am sure that he realizes) that we were both lucky NOT to be one of those black folks that is still trapped in that cycle. I had two parents that emphasized education and put forth a lot of personal effort to support me, with weekly library trips and helping me study for spelling and geography bees and general encouragement. President Obama had a very supportive extended family that helped his mom raise him. Not everybody is so lucky.

Really, if I think about it, most of my success can be attributed to other people. My parents, grandparents, and some teachers that cared enough to go out of their way to help me are basically the reason that I have made it to where I am. That's 95% of it, and the rest is my work.

I think that these talks from civic leaders are nice, but I also think that it is probably more important to find ways to get to those individuals in the impoverished part of the black community that are not supported by their peers and keep them from giving up their scholastic abilities by giving them the support system that they need. I also don't really try to blame people that have a hard time breaking that cycle because I really don't know if I would have done the same if put into their place.
 
2013-05-20 01:42:58 PM

Elvis Presleys Death Throne: Pre-Election:"If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon"

Post-Election: Obama tells African-Americans that there's no more room for excuses for their own failings

I wonder whats up with that?  It's almost like he was exploiting black people to get elected.  He must have taken that one out of the "Chris Christie lowers US flag to half-staff over dead crackhead(W.Huston) to get black poll numbers up.)  Maybe thats the sweet nothings they were whispering to each other on the runway after Hurrican Sandy.


What was Trayvon's "failing" exactly? Wearing a hoodie? Going to the corner store for iced tea and Skittles?
 
2013-05-20 02:02:37 PM

HeartBurnKid: Elvis Presleys Death Throne: Pre-Election:"If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon"

Post-Election: Obama tells African-Americans that there's no more room for excuses for their own failings

I wonder whats up with that?  It's almost like he was exploiting black people to get elected.  He must have taken that one out of the "Chris Christie lowers US flag to half-staff over dead crackhead(W.Huston) to get black poll numbers up.)  Maybe thats the sweet nothings they were whispering to each other on the runway after Hurrican Sandy.

What was Trayvon's "failing" exactly? Wearing a hoodie? Going to the corner store for iced tea and Skittles?


From what I understand from the chain letters, Trayvon was guilty of weighing 200 pounds and giving the finger on a facebook page.
 
2013-05-20 02:35:23 PM
How are we doing on White Opinions? I lost count.
 
2013-05-20 09:49:38 PM
Bill Cosby has been saying basically the same thing for 25 years.  The advantage divide in this country is now much more economically based than race based.  Poor of any race is equally disadvantaged over wealthy.
 
2013-05-20 10:33:11 PM

Frederick: Poor of any race is equally disadvantaged over under the wealthy.


Fixed that for you, you frederickin classist asshole.
 
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