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(Discovery)   When will we upload a human mind into a computer? Aside from the Al Gore and Mitt Romney models, that is   (news.discovery.com) divider line 59
    More: Interesting, Al Gore, Ray Kurzweil, machine learning, HBP, human computers, upload, Galaxy S3  
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1368 clicks; posted to Geek » on 18 May 2013 at 1:54 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-18 01:16:49 PM  
Already got the boys in the lab working on it.

i3.photobucket.com
 
2013-05-18 02:01:20 PM  
Just remember to use the correct brain
www.winomagazine.com
 
2013-05-18 02:03:21 PM  
Never. The mind doesn't work that way.
 
2013-05-18 02:15:20 PM  
Will I have the strength of ten gorillas?
 
2013-05-18 02:18:10 PM  
Still won't be you. There is no immortality in a computer mind.

You will die one day.. no doubt about it.
 
2013-05-18 02:18:46 PM  
Q: What is the biggest problem with trying to emulate (insert target politician's name here)'s brain on a Commodore 64?

A: figuring out what to do with the 63k left over.

/feels really old now
 
2013-05-18 02:22:23 PM  

Ed Grubermann: Never. The mind doesn't work that way.


mrlewish: Still won't be you. There is no immortality in a computer mind.

You will die one day.. no doubt about it.


i1287.photobucket.com
 
2013-05-18 02:24:11 PM  
The Al Gore model looks pretty...meh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHVxjMT1-os
 
2013-05-18 02:27:27 PM  

mrlewish: Still won't be you. There is no immortality in a computer mind.

You will die one day.. no doubt about it.


It's possible.... you need to slowly replace your organic brain, piece by piece, until there's nothing of the old organic you left. Since the continuity of your consciousness is preserved you remain you and not a copy.
 
2013-05-18 02:32:23 PM  
The Al Gore model must have had a emotion chip installed after serving as Vice President.
 
2013-05-18 02:37:01 PM  
Stop all the downloading.
 
2013-05-18 02:51:18 PM  
I'm torn, should we concentrate on uploading our consciousnesses, or 3D printing livers?
 
2013-05-18 02:54:09 PM  
But I wanna download Lucy Liu!
 
2013-05-18 03:45:37 PM  
This is the only way we'll actually have "manned" space flight to other solar systems.
 
2013-05-18 03:55:00 PM  

Ed Grubermann: Never. The mind doesn't work that way.


But but but technology and the Wright Brothers and and and 3D printers? But we'll colonize asteroids and live on Saturn's core, right?

So, how DOES the mind work. Mr Sagan?

mrlewish: Still won't be you.


YOU aren't you! You're just today's tenant in a ceasless dance of atoms.

mrlewish: There is no immortality in a computer mind.


You seem to know a lot about technology that doesn't exist.

Now That's What I Call a Taco!: This is the only way we'll actually have "manned" space flight to other solar systems.


Pretty much. Just don't forget to click "hibernate" before sending out your hero or he might arrive at destination not too smart.
 
2013-05-18 03:57:00 PM  
images.tvrage.com

Doesn't think it's a good idea.
 
2013-05-18 04:35:41 PM  
Upload? Never. The best we can hope for is to make a perfect copy -- which if course is not the same thing.

However, replacing the brain bit by bit, as mentioned upthread ...
 
2013-05-18 04:49:13 PM  
Never.  Computers don't work that way.
 
2013-05-18 04:50:19 PM  
I think that we will "create" a mind before we will ever be able to preserve one. and even then, it will just be a snapshot of what that mind was when it was "uploaded", more of an emulation

I guess I'm trying to compare this idea to M.A.M.E. you can have the all the code, but unless you have the exact hardware, it's only a simulation and you can get really close to being perfect in that simulation, but unless you have the original hardware to go with that ROM it will only ever be an emulation of the hardware...

you could have a perfectly functioning copy of your mind, but I don't think you would ever be able to call it sentient. Theologians might want to call that extra step.... a soul...

as to what I said at the top of my post about "creating" a mind, What I think will happen there is that it will be easier to create a Sentient AI. one that will be born and be nurtured and learn and grow..from a baby, to a child to an adult,  but even then.. who is to say that self awareness isn't just clever programing... can we program it to know what it is, and to believe it is self aware? and what do we do with it afterwards?
 
2013-05-18 04:54:46 PM  

Cerebral Knievel: you could have a perfectly functioning copy of your mind, but I don't think you would ever be able to call it sentient.


If it's not sentient, it's not a perfectly functioning copy.

 Theologians might want to call that extra step.... a soul...

Well, when the theologians can prove that such a thing exists ...
 
2013-05-18 04:57:23 PM  

Mentalpatient87: Will I have the strength of ten gorillas?


It depends on the gorillas.
 
2013-05-18 05:02:30 PM  

Mentalpatient87: Will I have the strength of ten gorillas?


You will have the strength of a bear that has the strength of TWO bears!
 
2013-05-18 05:25:01 PM  

Cerebral Knievel: I think that we will "create" a mind before we will ever be able to preserve one. and even then, it will just be a snapshot of what that mind was when it was "uploaded", more of an emulation

I guess I'm trying to compare this idea to M.A.M.E. you can have the all the code, but unless you have the exact hardware, it's only a simulation and you can get really close to being perfect in that simulation, but unless you have the original hardware to go with that ROM it will only ever be an emulation of the hardware...

you could have a perfectly functioning copy of your mind, but I don't think you would ever be able to call it sentient. Theologians might want to call that extra step.... a soul...

as to what I said at the top of my post about "creating" a mind, What I think will happen there is that it will be easier to create a Sentient AI. one that will be born and be nurtured and learn and grow..from a baby, to a child to an adult,  but even then.. who is to say that self awareness isn't just clever programing... can we program it to know what it is, and to believe it is self aware? and what do we do with it afterwards?


If we just use a ginger person then we don't have to worry about that whole soul thing.

Seriously, though, what I think is going to be the bigger issue is going to be what happens to a human mind when you remove the endocrine system that also is a bug part of what makes us human. Endorphins, adrenaline, dopamine, etc. They'd have to account for simulating that when they built a simulation of the brain.
 
2013-05-18 05:37:45 PM  

Mad_Radhu: They'd have to account for simulating that when they built a simulation of the brain.


There's a lot they'd have to account for.  Memory is a huge one.  Remembering, forgetting, kind of remembering, learning and storing to short-term vs. long-term....
 
2013-05-18 05:41:55 PM  

Uncle Tractor: Cerebral Knievel: you could have a perfectly functioning copy of your mind, but I don't think you would ever be able to call it sentient.

If it's not sentient, it's not a perfectly functioning copy.

 Theologians might want to call that extra step.... a soul...

Well, when the theologians can prove that such a thing exists ...


not to get into a theological... discussion with you... mr. tractor, if I may clarify my point...

a perfectly functioning copy, would be one as functioning as when it was "uploaded" frozen in time, not able to improve, or regress, it is you, as you were, when it was "uploaded"

and what I mean by a soul, is that intangible... thing.. a soul will forever be unprovable. but it is the thing that will forever be then benchmark for such sentience..  so if you upload a mind, you have only uploaded what was there at the time of upload, and the thing that makes the thing the person is not there. it's only a simulation of what was there before.

if you smell what I'm cooking...
ghost in the machine shiat...

now... to further clarify... I think it would be possible, eventually to create AI's that have something that could be construed as a.. soul. an organic personality that develops on it's own and is part of the things.. .character..

I think the true test of something like thats character would be to instruct it to act against the character it has developed on its own, reject it, and return to the one it grew...


dig?
 
2013-05-18 05:46:01 PM  
Mad_Radhu:

If we just use a ginger person then we don't have to worry about that whole soul thing.

I am a ..... ginger....

alright.. dark ginger.. auburn hair... a day walker if you will... started out life as a orange and pale ginger, but as I got older, I morphed into something closer to a brunette... perhaps... I.. somehow... grew a soul?
 
2013-05-18 05:49:31 PM  

Cerebral Knievel: Theologians might want to call that extra step.... a soul...


Theologians want all kindsof stupid BS to be true.
 
2013-05-18 05:51:47 PM  
Why not download the computer into the mind. And why stop at one -- get the whole colony.

amuseorbemused.com
 
2013-05-18 05:56:24 PM  
History teaches fairly obvious lessons to all the people who say something is unpossible.

Both a physical and a philosophical dimension.

Ray Kurzweil has made one prediction as to when computers will be powerful enough to mimic a human brain. He may be wrong about the timing, but I'd prefer his arguments to those of random Farkers. And probably a good time to cite Arthur G Clarke.

Philosophically, how would you know if it was a perfect upload or simulation?

One test would be if you could convince a (living) human being that he was interacting with the Real You (via a Skype-type connection).

Personally I think this is by far my best shot of a good immortality.

I don't particularly like the idea of living to 150 if I look and feel like most 100 year olds do today.

If I could exist inside a comp sim world, where my friends lived as well, and where I could roam any other virtual worlds, I would think that far better.
 
2013-05-18 06:11:16 PM  

Arthur Jumbles: It's possible.... you need to slowly replace your organic brain, piece by piece, until there's nothing of the old organic you left. Since the continuity of your consciousness is preserved you remain you and not a copy.


I think it is more likely that we'll find a way to keep the brain young, then hook it into a machine body. Well, at least on the "short" term. Building a functional machine brain is going to be insanely difficult and will take a while longer.
 
2013-05-18 06:14:04 PM  

Zarquon's Flat Tire: I'm torn, should we concentrate on uploading our consciousnesses, or 3D printing livers?


1-media-cdn.foolz.us
 
2013-05-18 06:18:21 PM  
Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this: the peak of your civilization.
 
2013-05-18 06:43:39 PM  

DerAppie: Arthur Jumbles: It's possible.... you need to slowly replace your organic brain, piece by piece, until there's nothing of the old organic you left. Since the continuity of your consciousness is preserved you remain you and not a copy.

I think it is more likely that we'll find a way to keep the brain young, then hook it into a machine body. Well, at least on the "short" term. Building a functional machine brain is going to be insanely difficult and will take a while longer.


that's what I've been trying to say I think... the consciousness, that's the soul part.. you will never be able to upload that..  but I think consciousness will eventually be able to be created, but it will never be able to be uploaded, and even then.. just a snapshot of a time and place.

I'm even willing to believe that a sentient, conscience,  A.I. brain will be created in my life time. but I am not willing to believe that we will ever be able to upload our consciousness to the "net'. we will never be able to achieve true immortality in that manner
 
2013-05-18 07:22:41 PM  
what happens when you replace the brain meat with machine brain slowly, a part at a time, over the course of twenty years or so? and then put that in a machine body?

/gits
//post pics of the major
 
2013-05-18 08:28:10 PM  

Farker Soze: Stop all the downloading.


+1 fantastic reference !
 
2013-05-18 09:22:07 PM  

Cerebral Knievel: DerAppie: Arthur Jumbles: It's possible.... you need to slowly replace your organic brain, piece by piece, until there's nothing of the old organic you left. Since the continuity of your consciousness is preserved you remain you and not a copy.

I think it is more likely that we'll find a way to keep the brain young, then hook it into a machine body. Well, at least on the "short" term. Building a functional machine brain is going to be insanely difficult and will take a while longer.

that's what I've been trying to say I think... the consciousness, that's the soul part.. you will never be able to upload that..  but I think consciousness will eventually be able to be created, but it will never be able to be uploaded, and even then.. just a snapshot of a time and place.

I'm even willing to believe that a sentient, conscience,  A.I. brain will be created in my life time. but I am not willing to believe that we will ever be able to upload our consciousness to the "net'. we will never be able to achieve true immortality in that manner


Never is an awfully big word to use there, man. Seeing as how it's impossible to prove anything but one's own self is conscious/sentient in the way you're describing as 'having a soul', your certainty about machines being conscious in wholly unfounded. Turing said the best you'll ever be able to do is take their word for it, and I believe it'd be massively immoral to disbelieve such a machine or upload simply because of 'meat chauvinism'.
 
2013-05-18 10:49:09 PM  
Like {insert Politician here} was ever human...

/not taking sides
 
2013-05-18 10:49:42 PM  
Heh, the problem is when you realize you still won't live forever. A copy of you will live forever. Which is worse, living with the knowledge you will one day die... or living with the knowledge you will one day die and now having a digital doppelganger going, "shiat man, that sucks. I'm so glad I'm immortal, woooo?" As far as it's concerned, it is you that just got uploaded to a computer, but as far as you're concerned, oh well fleshbag.

I guess if they could find a way to merge their memories back into the brain, it'd be almost like you were in the computer previously... but the original instantiation of you is still going to die unless you can keep the physical brain going.
 
2013-05-18 10:51:23 PM  

Uncle Tractor: Upload? Never. The best we can hope for is to make a perfect copy -- which if course is not the same thing.


That's actually exactly what an upload is. Or when you upload a picture to the Internet, does it disappear off your computer?
 
2013-05-18 11:11:42 PM  
I'll skip all the metaphysical soul stuff because it really serves no point.

Say it's possible, but then what's next? You've created a new person. With all the problems that entails. Rights, identity, heritance, etc etc.

And I have to wonder about people that would just enslave because them because they're digital.
 
2013-05-18 11:14:45 PM  

Ed Grubermann: Never. The mind doesn't work that way.


mrlewish: Still won't be you. There is no immortality in a computer mind.

You will die one day.. no doubt about it.


Jarhead_h: Never.  Computers don't work that way.


I see my work is already done here.
 
2013-05-18 11:28:33 PM  

Kurmudgeon: Mentalpatient87: Will I have the strength of ten gorillas?

It depends on the gorillas.


media.comicvine.com
 
2013-05-18 11:31:41 PM  

Cerebral Knievel: I think that we will "create" a mind before we will ever be able to preserve one. and even then, it will just be a snapshot of what that mind was when it was "uploaded", more of an emulation

I guess I'm trying to compare this idea to M.A.M.E. you can have the all the code, but unless you have the exact hardware, it's only a simulation and you can get really close to being perfect in that simulation, but unless you have the original hardware to go with that ROM it will only ever be an emulation of the hardware...

you could have a perfectly functioning copy of your mind, but I don't think you would ever be able to call it sentient. Theologians might want to call that extra step.... a soul...

as to what I said at the top of my post about "creating" a mind, What I think will happen there is that it will be easier to create a Sentient AI. one that will be born and be nurtured and learn and grow..from a baby, to a child to an adult,  but even then.. who is to say that self awareness isn't just clever programing... can we program it to know what it is, and to believe it is self aware? and what do we do with it afterwards?


www.batmanytb.com
Could it be it had a soul, Alfred? A soul of silicon, but a soul nonetheless.
 
2013-05-18 11:34:31 PM  

Cerebral Knievel: I think that we will "create" a mind before we will ever be able to preserve one. and even then, it will just be a snapshot of what that mind was when it was "uploaded", more of an emulation

I guess I'm trying to compare this idea to M.A.M.E. you can have the all the code, but unless you have the exact hardware, it's only a simulation and you can get really close to being perfect in that simulation, but unless you have the original hardware to go with that ROM it will only ever be an emulation of the hardware...

you could have a perfectly functioning copy of your mind, but I don't think you would ever be able to call it sentient. Theologians might want to call that extra step.... a soul...

as to what I said at the top of my post about "creating" a mind, What I think will happen there is that it will be easier to create a Sentient AI. one that will be born and be nurtured and learn and grow..from a baby, to a child to an adult,  but even then.. who is to say that self awareness isn't just clever programing... can we program it to know what it is, and to believe it is self aware? and what do we do with it afterwards?


The catch is that the hardware is *really* different.  There's a reason M.A.M.E. doesn't include PONG and other analog games (besides the legal issue as there is no ROM to provide).  Standard CPUs aren't anything like the brain.  Multiprocessor multi-threading (aka i7) isn't going to get closer any faster.  GPUs are a bit closer, assuming you brain is painfully localized (but I'm guessing not).  FPGAs (which are basically programmable logic chips: expensive and slow, not as expensive as custom chip run) are a lot closer, but I still don't think they are anywhere near ready to accept even Fido's brain (google "neural nets" to find out the latest status).

The other issue is that you replace roughly every atom in you every 7 years.  Heard the saying of my grandfather's axe?  My father replaced the shaft.  I replaced the head.  It is my grandfather's axe.  Who knows how to migrate to a computer (vulcan mind meld, anyone) and remain "my grandfather's axe".
 
2013-05-19 12:56:19 AM  

Ed Grubermann: Never. The mind doesn't work that way.


I disagree.  Kurzweil's estimate does not require any particular way of the mind functioning, nor does it even require understanding how the mind actually functions.  So long as you understand the basic building blocks (and we already pretty much do) you can emulate their interaction without actually understanding that interaction.

Vlad_the_Inaner: Q: What is the biggest problem with trying to emulate (insert target politician's name here)'s brain on a Commodore 64?

A: figuring out what to do with the 63k left over.


Huh?  That 63k is full of canned bovine feces!

Arthur Jumbles: It's possible.... you need to slowly replace your organic brain, piece by piece, until there's nothing of the old organic you left. Since the continuity of your consciousness is preserved you remain you and not a copy.


Yeah, unless we manage to do ourselves in I think it's inevitable that in time computers will grow powerful enough to emulate the human mind.  (Note:  We *COULD* do this now, just at astronomical cost.)  To me the biggest stumbling block is copying the information into the computer.

Cerebral Knievel: a perfectly functioning copy, would be one as functioning as when it was "uploaded" frozen in time, not able to improve, or regress, it is you, as you were, when it was "uploaded"


I disagree.  A working upload has to have the ability to learn.

mjjt: Ray Kurzweil has made one prediction as to when computers will be powerful enough to mimic a human brain. He may be wrong about the timing, but I'd prefer his arguments to those of random Farkers. And probably a good time to cite Arthur G Clarke.


His timeline stinks.  As for the computer hardware he made a big oops--the first uploads aren't going to be into desktop level machines but rather rich people escaping the clutches of the grim reaper.  As such the target hardware is going to be a lot better than he's envisioning.  By his own argument I would expect to see uploads by 2030.

The biological timeline (how to get the info out) is far worse, it's basically a handwave.  There's nothing in his argument that actually gives us any reasonable estimate on this.  I believe this will be the limiting factor.  We already know how to construct the machine (it's an *EXTREMELY* parallel task and thus you can simply rack up enough hardware to do the job), we have no idea of how to construct the reader.

ProfessorOhki: Heh, the problem is when you realize you still won't live forever. A copy of you will live forever. Which is worse, living with the knowledge you will one day die... or living with the knowledge you will one day die and now having a digital doppelganger going, "shiat man, that sucks. I'm so glad I'm immortal, woooo?" As far as it's concerned, it is you that just got uploaded to a computer, but as far as you're concerned, oh well fleshbag.

I guess if they could find a way to merge their memories back into the brain, it'd be almost like you were in the computer previously... but the original instantiation of you is still going to die unless you can keep the physical brain going.


I *STRONGLY* suspect the first upload procedures will be destructive.  They'll have to peel the brain layer by layer to get the info.  You'll got to sleep in the human body, you'll wake in the computer.  I also suspect that the reverse procedure will not be developed--it would probably be simpler and safer to simply put an interface in the skull of a new body, you remain in the computer and control it.
 
2013-05-19 01:00:32 AM  
Probably never, but if we do, it will just end up starting a war

i.imgur.com

/Die Arm scum.
 
2013-05-19 01:10:08 AM  

ProfessorOhki: Heh, the problem is when you realize you still won't live forever. A copy of you will live forever. Which is worse, living with the knowledge you will one day die... or living with the knowledge you will one day die and now having a digital doppelganger going, "shiat man, that sucks. I'm so glad I'm immortal, woooo?" As far as it's concerned, it is you that just got uploaded to a computer, but as far as you're concerned, oh well fleshbag.


But that is the same thing that happens to you every night when you go to sleep - you stop, and then a 'new' you wakes up in the morning with either a slightly different personality (a meaningful dream, perhaps) or a completely different personality (a disabling stroke, or a brain tumor that turns you into a pedophile)
 
2013-05-19 01:25:34 AM  
Loren:mjjt: Ray Kurzweil has made one prediction as to when computers will be powerful enough to mimic a human brain. He may be wrong about the timing, but I'd prefer his arguments to those of random Farkers. And probably a good time to cite Arthur G Clarke.

His timeline stinks.  As for the computer hardware he made a big oops--the first uploads aren't going to be into desktop level machines but rather rich people escaping the clutches of the grim reaper.  As such the target hardware is going to be a lot better than he's envisioning.  By his own argument I would expect to see uploads
by 2030.

The biological timeline (how to get the info out) is far worse, it's basically a handwave.  There's nothing in his argument that actually gives us any reasonable estimate on this.  I believe this will be the limiting factor.  We already know how to construct the machine (it's an *EXTREMELY* parallel task and thus you can simply rack up enough hardware to do the job), we have no idea of how to construct the reader. ..


Yes his precise timeline will almost certainly be wrong in detail, but that's a quibble - can paraphrase him to say "sooner, rather than later..."

Point about a reader is fair enough, but today's GUI's + everyday AI like Watson and Siri would have seemed almost unthinkable 50 years ago.

Tho' it was the AI of  Robert Broadhead in Pohl's Heechee Sagas that originally started me thinking of this type of immortality way back then
 
2013-05-19 02:00:18 AM  

ProfessorOhki: Uncle Tractor: Upload? Never. The best we can hope for is to make a perfect copy -- which if course is not the same thing.

That's actually exactly what an upload is. Or when you upload a picture to the Internet, does it disappear off your computer?


I stand corrected.

/and one "smart" for you
 
2013-05-19 02:04:33 AM  

Quantum Apostrophe: Ed Grubermann: Never. The mind doesn't work that way.

But but but technology and the Wright Brothers and and and 3D printers? But we'll colonize asteroids and live on Saturn's core, right?


Fark off, threadshiatter.
 
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