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(NPR)   Other than reactionary gun nuts stockpiling because the NRA instilled within them a fear of President Obama "restricting their guns," is there another reason the US has an ammunition shortage?   (npr.org) divider line 291
    More: Interesting, NRA, President Obama, ammunition shortage, ammunition  
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11790 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 May 2013 at 9:59 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-17 07:51:03 AM
What the article kind of dances around is that gun owners, or at least a significant segment of them, tend to be very political.  Trying to explain this using pure economic theory is going to fall flat on its face because simple supply and demand doesn't take into account the ideology of those buying the goods.

A large fraction of gun owners are willing to take severe action against those whom they consider "traitors".  Witness what happened to Smith and Wesson when they signed the deal with the Clinton Administration, or what happened to Jim Zumbo when he called AR-15's "terrorist rifles", and even what happened to the Eastern States Outdoor Show, which was canceled due to boycotts after they announced a "no assault weapons" policy, and the parent company lost the biggest gun related show in the World, the SHOT Show, because of it.

There is a fairly large subset of gun owners who just *LOVE* to "knife perceived traitors in the back", so a gun store that relies on repeat customers has to tread lightly for fear of being perceived as a traitor by a large number of their customers.  It's not like a gas station or a supermarket.
 
2013-05-17 08:03:09 AM
Nope.
 
2013-05-17 08:10:48 AM
I've been told that the national weather service has purchased in excess of seventy trillion rounds of hollow-point armor piercing incindiery anti-personnel ammunition, so this is probably to blame
 
2013-05-17 08:14:52 AM
Don't forget that DHS purchased 1.6 Billion rounds.  Regardless of whether those purchases were or were not justified, the purchases did reduce the available ammunition supply.
 
2013-05-17 08:20:40 AM

HoustonNick: Don't forget that DHS purchased 1.6 Billion rounds.  Regardless of whether those purchases were or were not justified, the purchases did reduce the available ammunition supply.


No, they didn't. What they did was get a contract for a suppliers to provide "up to" that amount over five years. They reduced the amount recently.

The government purchases aren't reducing supply at all. This is almost all panic buying at a time when manufacturers slow down production as part of a normal cycle (less production in winter months due to less shooting). Combine the nutters with normal slowdowns and here you are.
 
2013-05-17 08:26:28 AM

dr_blasto: HoustonNick: Don't forget that DHS purchased 1.6 Billion rounds.  Regardless of whether those purchases were or were not justified, the purchases did reduce the available ammunition supply.

No, they didn't. What they did was get a contract for a suppliers to provide "up to" that amount over five years. They reduced the amount recently.



But they have purchased some of that 1.6 and it is a reduction of the available supply.  Its pure match:

Production equals X,
Purchases (Gov't or Private Citizens) equal Y,
Available Supply equals X minus Y.
 
2013-05-17 08:27:35 AM

HoustonNick: Don't forget that DHS purchased 1.6 Billion rounds.  Regardless of whether those purchases were or were not justified, the purchases did reduce the available ammunition supply.


I hope it was for the purpose of causing scarcity - that would be the best use of my tax dollars EVAR.
 
2013-05-17 08:32:15 AM

Lucky LaRue: HoustonNick: Don't forget that DHS purchased 1.6 Billion rounds.  Regardless of whether those purchases were or were not justified, the purchases did reduce the available ammunition supply.

I hope it was for the purpose of causing scarcity - that would be the best use of my tax dollars EVAR


I hope you still feel that way when your local Police Dept runs out of ammo.
 
2013-05-17 08:37:57 AM
I have 40 9mm bullets in my ammo box.  For me, that is a five year supply.  I shoot off a single magazine (8 bullets) once a year.  I think that's good enough to stay familiar with the pistol.  I sure hope this ammo shortage is all over with by 2018, because I'll be wanting to buy a box of ammo by then.
 
2013-05-17 08:42:33 AM

HoustonNick: Lucky LaRue: HoustonNick: Don't forget that DHS purchased 1.6 Billion rounds.  Regardless of whether those purchases were or were not justified, the purchases did reduce the available ammunition supply.

I hope it was for the purpose of causing scarcity - that would be the best use of my tax dollars EVAR

I hope you still feel that way when your local Police Dept runs out of ammo.


If the idea of a shortage of ammo makes them just a bit more circumspect in their use of deadly force, well, I consider that a feature, not a bug.
 
2013-05-17 08:43:21 AM

HoustonNick: dr_blasto: HoustonNick: Don't forget that DHS purchased 1.6 Billion rounds.  Regardless of whether those purchases were or were not justified, the purchases did reduce the available ammunition supply.

No, they didn't. What they did was get a contract for a suppliers to provide "up to" that amount over five years. They reduced the amount recently.


But they have purchased some of that 1.6 and it is a reduction of the available supply.  Its pure match:

Production equals X,
Purchases (Gov't or Private Citizens) equal Y,
Available Supply equals X minus Y.


They're always buying ammo. shiat, we've been in two wars--where were all the 5.56 shortages when we were sending thousands of little bits of lead at insurgents on a daily basis?

The simplest answer is that because the natural production cycles slow down in winter, bad shiat happens in December and nutters panic and buy ammunition to stockpile in case of new restrictions causes shelves to be bare. This leads to other nutters noting the bare shelves and when they do see ammunition, they buy ALL of it. Other nutters notice it's become even harder to find ammo, so they buy palletloads. Wash, rinse, repeat.

The government isn't buying .22LR; why can't you find that?
 
2013-05-17 08:44:50 AM
dittybopper:

I hope you still feel that way when your local Police Dept runs out of ammo.

If the idea of a shortage of ammo makes them just a bit more circumspect in their use of deadly force, well, I consider that a feature, not a bug.


And what if an innocent victim - or the policie officer - gets killed - would you consider that a feature or a bug?
 
2013-05-17 08:50:23 AM

dr_blasto: They're always buying ammo. shiat, we've been in two wars--where were all the 5.56 shortages when we were sending thousands of little bits of lead at insurgents on a daily basis?


There were some minor shortages of strictly military calibers like .223 Remington/5/56mm NATO and 9mm Parabellum back a few years ago but it was hardly noticeable because the two wars you mention weren't "small arms intensive", and the military was able to draw from a large stockpile it already had to smooth out the demand.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-05-17 08:50:51 AM
Guns have become more of a cause than a business with some people.
 
2013-05-17 08:54:53 AM

HoustonNick: dittybopper:

I hope you still feel that way when your local Police Dept runs out of ammo.

If the idea of a shortage of ammo makes them just a bit more circumspect in their use of deadly force, well, I consider that a feature, not a bug.

And what if an innocent victim - or the policie officer - gets killed - would you consider that a feature or a bug?


I'll throw it right back at you:  What if someone innocent doesn't die or get injured because Officer Friendly doesn't empty his gun *TWICE* at a person reaching for their identification, or even someone innocent in the background?

Also, I said "a bit more circumspect in their use of deadly force", not "unarmed like a London Bobby".
 
2013-05-17 08:57:56 AM

dittybopper: dr_blasto: They're always buying ammo. shiat, we've been in two wars--where were all the 5.56 shortages when we were sending thousands of little bits of lead at insurgents on a daily basis?

There were some minor shortages of strictly military calibers like .223 Remington/5/56mm NATO and 9mm Parabellum back a few years ago but it was hardly noticeable because the two wars you mention weren't "small arms intensive", and the military was able to draw from a large stockpile it already had to smooth out the demand.


The estimates I've seen is the military used around 70mm rounds annually. Fighting insurgencies is small arms intensive--suppressing fire alone can expend a thousand rounds in short order while awaiting air support or whatever.
 
2013-05-17 09:01:42 AM

vpb: Guns have become more of a cause than a business with some people.


Wow, that would have been a brilliant observation 40 years ago.
 
2013-05-17 09:01:42 AM
dr_blasto:

The simplest answer is that because the natural production cycles slow down in winter, bad shiat happens in December and nutters panic and buy ammunition to stockpile in case of new restrictions causes shelves to be bare. This leads to other nutters noting the bare shelves and when they do see ammunition, they buy ALL of it. Other nutters notice it's become even harder to find ammo, so they buy palletloads. Wash, rinse, repeat.

The government isn't buying .22LR; why can't you find that?


Lots of biased (e.g. "nutters") assumptions there.

Does liking to target practice and shoot competively make you a Nutter?
What if you are a Liberal who likes to shoot, is the Liberal a  Nutter?
Are the Olympic Athletes who shoot Nutters?

I not sure why you can't find .22LR but from what I saw at the range, a lot of shooters switched to their .22s to reduce the cost (FYI, some articles have falsely stated that ammunition costs didn't increase.  Point in fact they did but generally in the 10-20% per box range.).  I know I started shooting my .22 more, but than all of a sudden I could find 9mm ammo everywhere, but no .22 ammo, so I switched back.

The other anomaly is that everyone, everywhere has shotgun shells - another product the Gov't isn't buying.
 
2013-05-17 09:01:49 AM

HoustonNick: But they have purchased some of that 1.6 and it is a reduction of the available supply.  Its pure match:


In advance, with plenty of notice. So you are saying bullet manufactures are incompetent.
 
2013-05-17 09:04:09 AM

dittybopper: HoustonNick: dittybopper:

I hope you still feel that way when your local Police Dept runs out of ammo.

If the idea of a shortage of ammo makes them just a bit more circumspect in their use of deadly force, well, I consider that a feature, not a bug.

And what if an innocent victim - or the policie officer - gets killed - would you consider that a feature or a bug?

I'll throw it right back at you:  What if someone innocent doesn't die or get injured because Officer Friendly doesn't empty his gun *TWICE* at a person reaching for their identification, or even someone innocent in the background?

Also, I said "a bit more circumspect in their use of deadly force", not "unarmed like a London Bobby".


I'm still wondering if you would call an innocent victim - or a police officer - getting killed a feature or a bug?  I didn't see your answer.
 
2013-05-17 09:10:32 AM
Endless wars?

dittybopper: so a gun store that relies on repeat customers has to tread lightly for fear of being perceived as a traitor by a large number of their customers.


What you're describing is a limited market with an overabundance of suppliers.Kind of shows the gun owner lobby has influence way out of proportion to it's relative population in the country.

/and there are lots of us with guns who wouldn't join the NRA for anything...
 
2013-05-17 09:12:15 AM

dr_blasto: dittybopper: dr_blasto: They're always buying ammo. shiat, we've been in two wars--where were all the 5.56 shortages when we were sending thousands of little bits of lead at insurgents on a daily basis?

There were some minor shortages of strictly military calibers like .223 Remington/5/56mm NATO and 9mm Parabellum back a few years ago but it was hardly noticeable because the two wars you mention weren't "small arms intensive", and the military was able to draw from a large stockpile it already had to smooth out the demand.

The estimates I've seen is the military used around 70mm rounds annually. Fighting insurgencies is small arms intensive--suppressing fire alone can expend a thousand rounds in short order while awaiting air support or whatever.


But there weren't a heck of a lot of those sorts of battles going on, compared to historical anti-insurgency campaigns like Vietnam.  The preferred weapon of the insurgency switched from the rifle to the IED.
 
2013-05-17 09:12:19 AM

vartian: HoustonNick: But they have purchased some of that 1.6 and it is a reduction of the available supply.  Its pure match:

In advance, with plenty of notice. So you are saying bullet manufactures are incompetent.


No, they were caught off guard by the increased demand caused by the gun ban efforts of Obama, Biden, Feinstein, Bloomber, et al, plus the increased chance of success as a result of the horror at Sandy Hook.  Admittedly, gun owners increased their ammo (and gun) purchases as a result, and the market was not prepared for either.

As indicated in one of my earlier posts - the purchases were by both Gov't and Private Citizens - and when all purchases increased, it reduced available supply.

FYI, its not like gun owners made up what Obama, Biden, Feinstein, Bloomberg, et al were doing, they were in fact trying to get new gun ban legislation passed.  That caused gun owners to react before the legislation could get passed.
 
2013-05-17 09:13:02 AM

HoustonNick: dr_blasto:

The simplest answer is that because the natural production cycles slow down in winter, bad shiat happens in December and nutters panic and buy ammunition to stockpile in case of new restrictions causes shelves to be bare. This leads to other nutters noting the bare shelves and when they do see ammunition, they buy ALL of it. Other nutters notice it's become even harder to find ammo, so they buy palletloads. Wash, rinse, repeat.

The government isn't buying .22LR; why can't you find that?

Lots of biased (e.g. "nutters") assumptions there.

Does liking to target practice and shoot competively make you a Nutter?
What if you are a Liberal who likes to shoot, is the Liberal a  Nutter?
Are the Olympic Athletes who shoot Nutters?

I not sure why you can't find .22LR but from what I saw at the range, a lot of shooters switched to their .22s to reduce the cost (FYI, some articles have falsely stated that ammunition costs didn't increase.  Point in fact they did but generally in the 10-20% per box range.).  I know I started shooting my .22 more, but than all of a sudden I could find 9mm ammo everywhere, but no .22 ammo, so I switched back.

The other anomaly is that everyone, everywhere has shotgun shells - another product the Gov't isn't buying.


I don't state that people shooting are nutters. I am saying the paranoid people buying all the ammunition up just to stockpile tens of thousands of rounds for when 0bama comes to take their guns are nutters. They are nutters.

I'm an avid shooter. I own a few firearms; throughout the wars at their peak(s), I never had an issue feeding any of my rifles or pistols, most of which use common NATO rounds like 5.56 or 9mm.

On the subject of .22LR, most people would buy by the brick as it was so friggin cheap. It takes a while to load and fire that shiat. I'm sure people still have quite a bit, but I haven't seen it on a shelf since early December. Some of my other shooting sports friends tell me that they think that mess was because the zombie/survivalist/endofworld types bought metric ass-tons up to store for 12/21/12, the end of times shiat. Whatever the reason, the government isn't buying that shiat, yet none is available.
 
2013-05-17 09:14:43 AM

dittybopper: What the article kind of dances around is that gun owners, or at least a significant segment of them, tend to be very political.  Trying to explain this using pure economic theory is going to fall flat on its face because simple supply and demand doesn't take into account the ideology of those buying the goods.

A large fraction of gun owners are willing to take severe action against those whom they consider "traitors".  Witness what happened to Smith and Wesson when they signed the deal with the Clinton Administration, or what happened to Jim Zumbo when he called AR-15's "terrorist rifles", and even what happened to the Eastern States Outdoor Show, which was canceled due to boycotts after they announced a "no assault weapons" policy, and the parent company lost the biggest gun related show in the World, the SHOT Show, because of it.

There is a fairly large subset of gun owners who just *LOVE* to "knife perceived traitors in the back", so a gun store that relies on repeat customers has to tread lightly for fear of being perceived as a traitor by a large number of their customers.  It's not like a gas station or a supermarket.


Very well put, sir.  ^This.
 
2013-05-17 09:16:13 AM

dittybopper: dr_blasto: dittybopper: dr_blasto: They're always buying ammo. shiat, we've been in two wars--where were all the 5.56 shortages when we were sending thousands of little bits of lead at insurgents on a daily basis?

There were some minor shortages of strictly military calibers like .223 Remington/5/56mm NATO and 9mm Parabellum back a few years ago but it was hardly noticeable because the two wars you mention weren't "small arms intensive", and the military was able to draw from a large stockpile it already had to smooth out the demand.

The estimates I've seen is the military used around 70mm rounds annually. Fighting insurgencies is small arms intensive--suppressing fire alone can expend a thousand rounds in short order while awaiting air support or whatever.

But there weren't a heck of a lot of those sorts of battles going on, compared to historical anti-insurgency campaigns like Vietnam.  The preferred weapon of the insurgency switched from the rifle to the IED.


http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05687.pdf
 
2013-05-17 09:16:30 AM

HoustonNick: dittybopper: HoustonNick: dittybopper:

I hope you still feel that way when your local Police Dept runs out of ammo.

If the idea of a shortage of ammo makes them just a bit more circumspect in their use of deadly force, well, I consider that a feature, not a bug.

And what if an innocent victim - or the policie officer - gets killed - would you consider that a feature or a bug?

I'll throw it right back at you:  What if someone innocent doesn't die or get injured because Officer Friendly doesn't empty his gun *TWICE* at a person reaching for their identification, or even someone innocent in the background?

Also, I said "a bit more circumspect in their use of deadly force", not "unarmed like a London Bobby".

I'm still wondering if you would call an innocent victim - or a police officer - getting killed a feature or a bug?  I didn't see your answer.


Nor did I see yours.

You're begging the question:  Your assumption is automatically that less use of deadly force = innocent victim or police officer killed.  That's not necessarily the outcome, and you know it.
 
2013-05-17 09:25:03 AM
dittybopper:

You're begging the question:  Your assumption is automatically that less use of deadly force = innocent victim or police officer killed.  That's not necessarily the outcome, and you know it.

Actually you entirely missing my point.  You indicated that scarcity was a good thing - "I hope it was for the purpose of causing scarcity - that would be the best use of my tax dollars EVAR",and my question to you is whether you thought it would be a good thing if that scarcity caused an innocent victim or police officer to get killed ? - but you wouldn't answer.

As for your question, if scarcity prevents an innocent suspect from getting killed - that is great news.  I am in favor of innocent persons not getting killed.  Including innocent suspects, innocent victims, innocent police officers, innocent dogs, cats, etc.

So now will you answer my question.
 
2013-05-17 09:25:32 AM

dr_blasto: dittybopper: dr_blasto: dittybopper: dr_blasto: They're always buying ammo. shiat, we've been in two wars--where were all the 5.56 shortages when we were sending thousands of little bits of lead at insurgents on a daily basis?

There were some minor shortages of strictly military calibers like .223 Remington/5/56mm NATO and 9mm Parabellum back a few years ago but it was hardly noticeable because the two wars you mention weren't "small arms intensive", and the military was able to draw from a large stockpile it already had to smooth out the demand.

The estimates I've seen is the military used around 70mm rounds annually. Fighting insurgencies is small arms intensive--suppressing fire alone can expend a thousand rounds in short order while awaiting air support or whatever.

But there weren't a heck of a lot of those sorts of battles going on, compared to historical anti-insurgency campaigns like Vietnam.  The preferred weapon of the insurgency switched from the rifle to the IED.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05687.pdf


I can easily see it doubling, but that doesn't necessarily contradict what I said.  A traditional infantry-intensive anti-insurgency campaign in two countries could have easily quadrupled demand, or more.

Also, the increased demand for small arms ammo was for increased *TRAINING*, not actual warfighting, which dovetails nicely with my point.  From your link:

DOD's increased requirements for small and medium caliber ammunition 
over the past several years are largely the result of increased weapons 
training requirements
needed to support the Army's transformation to a 
more self-sustaining and lethal force
 
2013-05-17 09:30:48 AM

dittybopper: dr_blasto: dittybopper: dr_blasto: dittybopper: dr_blasto: They're always buying ammo. shiat, we've been in two wars--where were all the 5.56 shortages when we were sending thousands of little bits of lead at insurgents on a daily basis?

There were some minor shortages of strictly military calibers like .223 Remington/5/56mm NATO and 9mm Parabellum back a few years ago but it was hardly noticeable because the two wars you mention weren't "small arms intensive", and the military was able to draw from a large stockpile it already had to smooth out the demand.

The estimates I've seen is the military used around 70mm rounds annually. Fighting insurgencies is small arms intensive--suppressing fire alone can expend a thousand rounds in short order while awaiting air support or whatever.

But there weren't a heck of a lot of those sorts of battles going on, compared to historical anti-insurgency campaigns like Vietnam.  The preferred weapon of the insurgency switched from the rifle to the IED.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05687.pdf

I can easily see it doubling, but that doesn't necessarily contradict what I said.  A traditional infantry-intensive anti-insurgency campaign in two countries could have easily quadrupled demand, or more.

Also, the increased demand for small arms ammo was for increased *TRAINING*, not actual warfighting, which dovetails nicely with my point.  From your link:

DOD's increased requirements for small and medium caliber ammunition 
over the past several years are largely the result of increased weapons 
training requirements needed to support the Army's transformation to a 
more self-sustaining and lethal force


True, training. I misstated the need; in the end, though, they may use IEDs, but we don't. Either way, that document shows how much was used/is expected to be needed.

Also, I'll note that using the military consumption of ammunition as part of the equation (which I did) was incorrect as the GAO notes the government makes its own ammo, the commercial market hasn't capacity to support their needs and they turned to international purchases to ensure they could keep stock as needed.
 
2013-05-17 09:36:40 AM
It's been me, guys.

I've been buying up as much ammunition as possible in order to make my Bullet Mountain theme park.
 
2013-05-17 09:38:51 AM

HoustonNick: dittybopper:

You're begging the question:  Your assumption is automatically that less use of deadly force = innocent victim or police officer killed.  That's not necessarily the outcome, and you know it.

Actually you entirely missing my point.  You indicated that scarcity was a good thing - "I hope it was for the purpose of causing scarcity - that would be the best use of my tax dollars EVAR",and my question to you is whether you thought it would be a good thing if that scarcity caused an innocent victim or police officer to get killed ? - but you wouldn't answer.


Don't use double quotes unless you are actually directly quoting someone.  I never said that.  So right there, you're being dishonest.

As for your question, if scarcity prevents an innocent suspect from getting killed - that is great news.  I am in favor of innocent persons not getting killed.  Including innocent suspects, innocent victims, innocent police officers, innocent dogs, cats, etc.

So now will you answer my question.


Sure.

I'd look at both sides of the equation, and see what the net result is.  If there are 10 fewer innocents/cops killed because an ammo shortage prevents criminals from shooting, but that same ammo shortage causes 5 deaths that wouldn't have happened because the police didn't have enough ammo, you still come out ahead.

Of course. to some people a net gain of 5 lives is a bad thing, because *COPS*!  *INNOCENT VICTIMS*!.

In other words, you'd have to demonstrate to me that there is an actual net negative value before I would reconsider my position.
 
2013-05-17 09:42:40 AM

Aarontology: It's been me, guys.

I've been buying up as much ammunition as possible in order to make my Bullet Mountain theme park.


And I hear you've been doing a bang up job, too.
 
2013-05-17 09:42:50 AM

HoustonNick: dittybopper:

I hope you still feel that way when your local Police Dept runs out of ammo.

If the idea of a shortage of ammo makes them just a bit more circumspect in their use of deadly force, well, I consider that a feature, not a bug.

And what if an innocent victim - or the policie officer - gets killed - would you consider that a feature or a bug?


Cops are usually the last people you'd trust to be shooting though.

If you run out of ammo, that's a very bad situation. If the cops run out of ammo, it's probably their own damn fault.
 
2013-05-17 09:43:25 AM

dr_blasto: they may use IEDs, but we don't.


Yeah, but think about how IEDs are used:  They are remotely detonated.  Most often, those effected by the IED don't have anything or anyone to shoot *AT*.  That's why we don't shoot as much as in a traditional counterinsurgency.

But yeah, I see your points too.
 
2013-05-17 09:46:42 AM

dr_blasto: Aarontology: It's been me, guys.

I've been buying up as much ammunition as possible in order to make my Bullet Mountain theme park.

And I hear you've been doing a bang up job, too.


We're aiming for a Memorial Day weekend grand opening.
 
2013-05-17 09:49:45 AM
dittybopper:

So innocents being killed is a numbers game to you?  I'm not sure what you mean by "actual net negative value" when you are talking about people dying.  More bad guys then good?

Just to be clear, two simple questions:

1.   Are you happy if an innocent (suspect, victim, cop) is killed because of the scarcity?
2.   Would that be the best use of your tax dollars EVAR?
 
2013-05-17 09:53:43 AM

doglover: HoustonNick: dittybopper:

I hope you still feel that way when your local Police Dept runs out of ammo.

If the idea of a shortage of ammo makes them just a bit more circumspect in their use of deadly force, well, I consider that a feature, not a bug.

And what if an innocent victim - or the policie officer - gets killed - would you consider that a feature or a bug?

Cops are usually the last people you'd trust to be shooting though.

If you run out of ammo, that's a very bad situation. If the cops run out of ammo, it's probably their own damn fault.



1.  So you trust criminals more than cops?
2.  What about innocent victims being killed because they cannot find ammunition to defend themselves.  Do you think that is a good thing?
3.  The question assumes that the cops ran out of ammunition because of the scarcity.  Although its happening more to rural or small police departments, some have been unable to afford or find ammunition because of the current shortage.
 
2013-05-17 09:56:13 AM

HoustonNick: dittybopper:

So innocents being killed is a numbers game to you?  I'm not sure what you mean by "actual net negative value" when you are talking about people dying.  More bad guys then good?

Just to be clear, two simple questions:

1.   Are you happy if an innocent (suspect, victim, cop) is killed because of the scarcity?
2.   Would that be the best use of your tax dollars EVAR?


Could it be any clearer that "If on balance more innocents live than die, than yes"?

Or are you innumerate?
 
2013-05-17 09:59:06 AM

dittybopper: HoustonNick: dittybopper:

So innocents being killed is a numbers game to you?  I'm not sure what you mean by "actual net negative value" when you are talking about people dying.  More bad guys then good?

Just to be clear, two simple questions:

1.   Are you happy if an innocent (suspect, victim, cop) is killed because of the scarcity?
2.   Would that be the best use of your tax dollars EVAR?

Could it be any clearer that "If on balance more innocents live than die, than yes"?

Or are you innumerate?


No, but unlike you apparently, I do not view people as mere numbers.

And you still didn't answer my questions.  Would the death of an innocent be the best use of your tax dollars EVAR?
 
2013-05-17 10:01:10 AM

dittybopper: There is a fairly large subset of gun owners who just *LOVE* to "knife perceived traitors in the back", so a gun store that relies on repeat customers has to tread lightly for fear of being perceived as a traitor by a large number of their customers.


So you're admitting that gun owners, as a group, are reactionary nutbars?
 
2013-05-17 10:03:37 AM

HoustonNick: 1.  So you trust criminals more than cops?


Those two sets aren't 100% mutually exclusive.  And I say that as someone who has friends on the local PD, state troopers, and in the FBI.
 
2013-05-17 10:03:41 AM

Aarontology: dr_blasto: Aarontology: It's been me, guys.

I've been buying up as much ammunition as possible in order to make my Bullet Mountain theme park.

And I hear you've been doing a bang up job, too.

We're aiming for a Memorial Day weekend grand opening.


I hope you have explosive ticket sales and meet your revenue targets. Good luck!
 
2013-05-17 10:03:43 AM
I fear no man but God

/only kidding, my "faith" is not that strong lol.
 
2013-05-17 10:04:54 AM
Holy shiat, I better get some guns and ammo before they're all gone!!

/amidoinitrite?
 
2013-05-17 10:05:18 AM

dr_blasto: Aarontology: dr_blasto: Aarontology: It's been me, guys.

I've been buying up as much ammunition as possible in order to make my Bullet Mountain theme park.

And I hear you've been doing a bang up job, too.

We're aiming for a Memorial Day weekend grand opening.

I hope you have explosive ticket sales and meet your revenue targets. Good luck!


thanks! It should be a blast
 
2013-05-17 10:06:06 AM
im41.com
 
2013-05-17 10:06:14 AM
I really wish this government would stop implementing policies originated by 90s comedians.
 
2013-05-17 10:06:37 AM

HoustonNick: I hope you still feel that way when your local Police Dept runs out of ammo.


With their accuracy, I'm not sure it would matter.
 
2013-05-17 10:08:23 AM

HoustonNick: dittybopper:

You're begging the question:  Your assumption is automatically that less use of deadly force = innocent victim or police officer killed.  That's not necessarily the outcome, and you know it.

Actually you entirely missing my point.  You indicated that scarcity was a good thing - "I hope it was for the purpose of causing scarcity - that would be the best use of my tax dollars EVAR",and my question to you is whether you thought it would be a good thing if that scarcity caused an innocent victim or police officer to get killed ? - but you wouldn't answer.

As for your question, if scarcity prevents an innocent suspect from getting killed - that is great news.  I am in favor of innocent persons not getting killed.  Including innocent suspects, innocent victims, innocent police officers, innocent dogs, cats, etc.

So now will you answer my question.


Why should anyone answer your buzzard poisoned hypotheticals?
 
2013-05-17 10:08:31 AM
American Taliban.
They loves them some guns and pickups and Jesus.
 
2013-05-17 10:08:48 AM

dittybopper: What the article kind of dances around is that gun owners, or at least a significant segment of them, tend to be very political.  Trying to explain this using pure economic theory is going to fall flat on its face because simple supply and demand doesn't take into account the ideology of those buying the goods.

A large fraction of gun owners are willing to take severe action against those whom they consider "traitors".  Witness what happened to Smith and Wesson when they signed the deal with the Clinton Administration, or what happened to Jim Zumbo when he called AR-15's "terrorist rifles", and even what happened to the Eastern States Outdoor Show, which was canceled due to boycotts after they announced a "no assault weapons" policy, and the parent company lost the biggest gun related show in the World, the SHOT Show, because of it.

There is a fairly large subset of gun owners who just *LOVE* to "knife perceived traitors in the back", so a gun store that relies on repeat customers has to tread lightly for fear of being perceived as a traitor by a large number of their customers.  It's not like a gas station or a supermarket.


well sure, for the vast majority of Americans now the gun is at the literal bottom of the totem pole of utilitarian purchases, below even the least used garden supplies of an abandoned one-off garden project

and it's been getting more and more that way for hundreds of years, really the gun has mostly turned into a luxury purchase

so sure, it's entirely driven by gut feelings
 
2013-05-17 10:08:51 AM
Your liberal scare tactic, " you won't saying that if the cops can't X" is the weakest argument evar created. Do you have a fire extinguisher, if so why... There is always the fire department.
 
2013-05-17 10:09:15 AM
DERPTASTIC
 
2013-05-17 10:09:50 AM
I'm surprised that all those CAPITALISM-PROTECTING PATRIOTS subscribe to such COMMIE notions as "fairness", and don't let the invisible hand of the FREE MARKET  fix the shortage!

/needs a bit more eye-twitching and spittle, but not bad for a first draft
 
2013-05-17 10:09:53 AM

edmo: dittybopper: so a gun store that relies on repeat customers has to tread lightly for fear of being perceived as a traitor by a large number of their customers.

What you're describing is a limited market with an overabundance of suppliers.Kind of shows the gun owner lobby has influence way out of proportion to it's relative population in the country.


Or like poor blacks in the south and their influence over transportation companies.

\Or should they just go to the back of the bus?
 
2013-05-17 10:10:01 AM

HoustonNick: Don't forget that DHS purchased 1.6 Billion rounds.  Regardless of whether those purchases were or were not justified, the purchases did reduce the available ammunition supply.


randomdrake.com


What else should they do, point their fingers at a terrorist and go PEW PEW PEW?


i.imgur.com
 
2013-05-17 10:11:02 AM

dr_blasto: the GAO notes the government makes its own ammo


Um, no, they don't.  In my old job I bought ammo of DoD contracts all.the.time.  The DoD buys its ammo from commercial manufacturers.
 
2013-05-17 10:12:57 AM
12 ga shot shells are very available, as are large caliber cartridges.
more people are shooting to have fun and stay capable with the smaller caliber rounds.
 
2013-05-17 10:14:39 AM
Haven't seen ammo on the shelves (other than shotgun shells) in months at sport stores I frequent.  Been shooting every other week and I am down to a few hundred rounds of .22lr.  The range I frequent was selling reloads of .22 for $1 per 10 shells.  And they smirked a bit when they told me, they are really really getting off on this.  Right now if you can meet the delivery truck at the store you can make about $40 on average off a $15 box of shells, or more by reselling it on gunbroker or one of the other sites.  It's pretty farking crazy.  The ammo manufacturers are too farking scared of what laws may or may not be passed to ramp up production to meet demand.  Eventually they will and this will pass.  Until then, target shooting has gotten farking expensive.
 
2013-05-17 10:15:35 AM

dittybopper: HoustonNick: dittybopper:

I hope you still feel that way when your local Police Dept runs out of ammo.

If the idea of a shortage of ammo makes them just a bit more circumspect in their use of deadly force, well, I consider that a feature, not a bug.

And what if an innocent victim - or the policie officer - gets killed - would you consider that a feature or a bug?

I'll throw it right back at you:  What if someone innocent doesn't die or get injured because Officer Friendly doesn't empty his gun *TWICE* at a person reaching for their identification, or even someone innocent in the background?

Also, I said "a bit more circumspect in their use of deadly force", not "unarmed like a London Bobby".


An ammo shortage for a police department wouldn't cause the officers to not carry a sidearm. He'd still have whatever he carried before, and with just as many rounds in the magazine or wheel. What it would do is reduce range and training time. So when it comes time for Officer Friendly to empty is magazine at a suspect, he'd be an even worse aim and endanger even more so any bystanders.

I don't know how you cant see that.
 
2013-05-17 10:15:49 AM

Carlip: Your liberal scare tactic, " you won't saying that if the cops can't X" is the weakest argument evar created. Do you have a fire extinguisher, if so why... There is always the fire department.


Your conservative scare tactic, "The government is wasteful, corrupt and stupid, but is ALSO just itching at the chance to suppress and send us to FEMA camps!" is pretty useful on dumbass white guys with money, though.
 
2013-05-17 10:15:52 AM

HoustonNick: No, but unlike you apparently, I do not view people as mere numbers.


So you're OK with 10 people dying instead of 5?  Isn't that worse?
 
2013-05-17 10:17:55 AM
Blah. Cost of resources + massive demand + people making money by artificially restricting the supply == shortage, panic, and conspiracy theories.
 
2013-05-17 10:19:01 AM

HoustonNick: No, but unlike you apparently, I do not view people as mere numbers.

And you still didn't answer my questions.  Would the death of an innocent be the best use of your tax dollars EVAR?


Good lord. I don't even have a dog in this fight, but I can see that you are refusing or unable to comprehend the answer that was previously given. He answered your question pretty clearly above.
 
2013-05-17 10:19:02 AM
This is why I stock up on det cord and arrows.
 
2013-05-17 10:19:05 AM
How do they figure prices haven't gone up? A hundred round white box of Winchester 9mm used to be about 9 bucks in the Dubya days. Now it's like 17-20.
And Magtec 5.56 ammo was about .36 a round, now it's upwards of $1.

And with the latest attempts of gun bans failing, you'd think ammo would start to become more avaliable as the gun nuts (by which I mean anyone crazier than I am) would stop worrying so much. I've been trying to get some 9mm for months before I lucked out and happened to be at a Walmart right as they got a shipment in, and got 200rds of 9mm and 100 of .40.

Of course I shoot the stuff for fun instead of hording it.
 
2013-05-17 10:21:27 AM
its funny I always see people get so zealous about gun owners and gun lobby. if you spent half as much time realizing the damage caused by legal gun owners is statistically tiny, and the 'disproportionate' lobby power is exactly the same as with every other group in the history of lobbying, you might be able to apply all your 15 minutes of faux rage at issues that actually seriously affect this country and the world like, oh, I don't know; the disproportionate power of the bank lobby, or the petroleum lobby, or the christian lobby, or the drug war lobby, or the anti woman's rights lobby, or the warmongers lobby, or any of dozens of other things advocated with a full intention of farking over everyone in the country and world for a quick buck.

where's your bleeding heart for people farked by banks?

where's your bleeding heart for people sick from fossil fuel poisons?

you harp on gun owners because its easy and you are lazy in your theatre at giving a shiat.
 
2013-05-17 10:21:57 AM
It is all panic buying. It has even trickled into .22lr because now that shooting regular cartridges has gotten so expensive people have been using their .22 at the range a lot more. That lead to 'better buy every box of .22....' mindset and cleared the shelves of that puny cartridge.

However, in normal capitalism if the market really did expand that much there would be massive new investment in ammunition production. Businesses would be scrambling to get loans to build or expand new plants to capitalize on that demand. That didn't happen. Some plants extended shifts to increase production, but that isn't an investment. Nobody is investing more money to meet this demand.

Why?

Because it isn't a real demand. When there is a white president again the panic will stop and prices will plummet. Anyone that took out big loans to expand production based upon high prices of ammo is going to go bankrupt when their sales dwindle. So the businesses are being smart. They are reaping a big pay day now, but because this is not the normal demand of the market - they anticipate that it will end.
 
2013-05-17 10:22:11 AM

HoustonNick: 2. What about innocent victims being killed because they cannot find ammunition to defend themselves.


Where the fark do you think you live, Phobos?

We're not being invaded by the Sons of Horus and the World Eaters. Bullets are not a limited resource being sold individually at auction like in Outlaw Star. Even a minimum wage job can afford you a box of 100 rounds rather easily.

There's a minor shortage of munitions driving up the price. It's not like all the bullets are gone and aliens stole all the brass so we can't make any more. If demand really increases, they'll make more of them.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-05-17 10:23:11 AM

HoustonNick: dittybopper: HoustonNick: dittybopper:

So innocents being killed is a numbers game to you?  I'm not sure what you mean by "actual net negative value" when you are talking about people dying.  More bad guys then good?

Just to be clear, two simple questions:

1.   Are you happy if an innocent (suspect, victim, cop) is killed because of the scarcity?
2.   Would that be the best use of your tax dollars EVAR?

Could it be any clearer that "If on balance more innocents live than die, than yes"?

Or are you innumerate?

No, but unlike you apparently, I do not view people as mere numbers.

And you still didn't answer my questions.  Would the death of an innocent be the best use of your tax dollars EVAR?


Put the crack pipe down, it's making the worms in your skull eat too much brain.
 
2013-05-17 10:25:22 AM

HoustonNick: dittybopper: HoustonNick: dittybopper:

So innocents being killed is a numbers game to you?  I'm not sure what you mean by "actual net negative value" when you are talking about people dying.  More bad guys then good?

Just to be clear, two simple questions:

1.   Are you happy if an innocent (suspect, victim, cop) is killed because of the scarcity?
2.   Would that be the best use of your tax dollars EVAR?

Could it be any clearer that "If on balance more innocents live than die, than yes"?

Or are you innumerate?

No, but unlike you apparently, I do not view people as mere numbers.

And you still didn't answer my questions.  Would the death of an innocent be the best use of your tax dollars EVAR?


You realize that you're essentially arguing for more hypothetical deaths, right? Do you realize how frigging monstrous that sounds?
 
2013-05-17 10:26:37 AM

Frank N Stein: An ammo shortage for a police department wouldn't cause the officers to not carry a sidearm. He'd still have whatever he carried before, and with just as many rounds in the magazine or wheel. What it would do is reduce range and training time. So when it comes time for Officer Friendly to empty is magazine at a suspect, he'd be an even worse aim and endanger even more so any bystanders.

I don't know how you cant see that.


There are ways to maintain basic marksmanship proficiency fairly cheaply.  Nothing beats actual range time, but the police departments in general require so little range time I can't see it being a major issue.
 
2013-05-17 10:27:26 AM

dittybopper: vpb: Guns have become more of a cause than a business with some people.

Wow, that would have been a brilliant observation 40 years ago.


Uh... he said pretty much what you did in the Titties except more concisely.
 
2013-05-17 10:29:17 AM

HoustonNick: FYI, its not like gun owners made up what Obama, Biden, Feinstein, Bloomberg, et al were doing, they were in fact trying to get new gun ban legislation passed. That caused gun owners to react before the legislation could get passed.


Actually, the only gun action Obama took in his entire first term was expanding concealed-carry rights on public land.

From the moment the 2008 election was decided, gun stores were going with a "stock up while you can, before the scary gun-grabber grabs your guns!" message. And why wouldn't they? It's a proven effective marketing scheme. I saw it work during the Clinton years, I saw a gun store in Tennessee (and I thought this was brilliant) with a "Don't trust Florida" message during the 2000 recount, and I saw it work when the Democrats took control of Congress in 2006. At all these points in time, the mere fact that Democrats had political influence was reason enough for gun stores to push the "they're a-gonna take yer guns!" marketing message, and it apparently proved effective to its target audience.

There's a certain segment of America that is just really susceptible to having guns sold to them in this manner. "Act now, before the politicians repeal the Second Amendment" is an easy way to get them to respond like Pavlov's dogs.
 
2013-05-17 10:30:43 AM

ajgeek: This is why I stock up on det cord and arrows.


them Duke boys...
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-05-17 10:31:25 AM

Dr. Goldshnoz: its funny I always see people get so zealous about gun owners and gun lobby. if you spent half as much time realizing the damage caused by legal gun owners is statistically tiny, and the 'disproportionate' lobby power is exactly the same as with every other group in the history of lobbying, you might be able to apply all your 15 minutes of faux rage at issues that actually seriously affect this country and the world like, oh, I don't know; the disproportionate power of the bank lobby, or the petroleum lobby, or the christian lobby, or the drug war lobby, or the anti woman's rights lobby, or the warmongers lobby, or any of dozens of other things advocated with a full intention of farking over everyone in the country and world for a quick buck.

where's your bleeding heart for people farked by banks?

where's your bleeding heart for people sick from fossil fuel poisons?

you harp on gun owners because its easy and you are lazy in your theatre at giving a shiat.


I almost wish you weren't already a TF'er so I could gift you some.
 
2013-05-17 10:31:30 AM
Profit   Profit    Profit   Profit

What were we, oh yea, just like a "shortage" of gas made the price jump 15% overnight.
Yea, baby, shortage FTW!
 
2013-05-17 10:32:19 AM
Price gouge and blame Obama.  Can't go wrong with that.
 
2013-05-17 10:34:17 AM
A local gun shop here is rationing ammunition by limiting customers to three boxes of each caliber per purchase. The owner said he is doing it so that he doesn't run out because that would affect his gun sales. He said people are unlikely to buy a gun if they can't also buy ammo for it at the same time.

Stockpilers are foolish, especially those paying high prices for bulk ammo. I have enough .380, .22lr and .357 magnums for my pistols to last me quite a while. By that I mean, less than 100 rounds of each. I have yet to go through an entire box of 20 hunting rounds during the 3-month deer season we have here in SC, and I usually get 5 deer/season. I'll go to the range and check my scope's zero with about 6 shots before the season starts and the rest are fired at deer. I'm not going to buy three boxes of hunting ammo.
 
2013-05-17 10:34:30 AM
the word "fair" came up about two-dozen times. Or, as one customer put it, "There's no reason to make a profit off of our misfortune."

What kind of Commies are these guys?
 
2013-05-17 10:36:03 AM
orclover.....how do you reload 22 shells....never heard of such a thing
 
2013-05-17 10:36:09 AM

YoungLochinvar: HoustonNick: dittybopper: HoustonNick: dittybopper:

So innocents being killed is a numbers game to you?  I'm not sure what you mean by "actual net negative value" when you are talking about people dying.  More bad guys then good?

Just to be clear, two simple questions:

1.   Are you happy if an innocent (suspect, victim, cop) is killed because of the scarcity?
2.   Would that be the best use of your tax dollars EVAR?

Could it be any clearer that "If on balance more innocents live than die, than yes"?

Or are you innumerate?

No, but unlike you apparently, I do not view people as mere numbers.

And you still didn't answer my questions.  Would the death of an innocent be the best use of your tax dollars EVAR?

You realize that you're essentially arguing for more hypothetical deaths, right? Do you realize how frigging monstrous that sounds?


To clarify my point - if you're going to argue about a hypothetical change in policy, you necessarily have to compare that policy to the current status quo. You don't get to say "if we change things somebody might die"; you have to look at how many people the status quo is killing too. Hiding behind this "people aren't numbers" argument doesn't make sense - if the status quo is killing ten people, *they're still people*. So in the hypothetical situation where the scarcity saves ten lives and costs one, you are choosing to kill ten people if you stick with the status quo. Remember that.

/I have no idea what the effects of an ammo scarcity would be - not arguing in favor of that.
 
2013-05-17 10:36:32 AM

HoustonNick: dittybopper: HoustonNick: dittybopper:

So innocents being killed is a numbers game to you?  I'm not sure what you mean by "actual net negative value" when you are talking about people dying.  More bad guys then good?

Just to be clear, two simple questions:

1.   Are you happy if an innocent (suspect, victim, cop) is killed because of the scarcity?
2.   Would that be the best use of your tax dollars EVAR?

Could it be any clearer that "If on balance more innocents live than die, than yes"?

Or are you innumerate?

No, but unlike you apparently, I do not view people as mere numbers.

And you still didn't answer my questions.  Would the death of an innocent be the best use of your tax dollars EVAR?


Are you saying that you would be fine with 10 innocent people dying if 5 innocent lives are saved?
 
2013-05-17 10:36:37 AM

dittybopper: Frank N Stein: An ammo shortage for a police department wouldn't cause the officers to not carry a sidearm. He'd still have whatever he carried before, and with just as many rounds in the magazine or wheel. What it would do is reduce range and training time. So when it comes time for Officer Friendly to empty is magazine at a suspect, he'd be an even worse aim and endanger even more so any bystanders.

I don't know how you cant see that.

There are ways to maintain basic marksmanship proficiency fairly cheaply.  Nothing beats actual range time, but the police departments in general require so little range time I can't see it being a major issue.


It is an issue with the LAPD. Giving the village idiot a gun w/o adequate training and continuing proficiency practice needs to be criminalized.
A gun is a pinpoint weapon. Spraying rounds in the general direction of an assumed target is the sign of utter incompetency.
 
2013-05-17 10:36:47 AM

catusr: I have 40 9mm bullets in my ammo box.  For me, that is a five year supply.  I shoot off a single magazine (8 bullets) once a year.  I think that's good enough to stay familiar with the pistol.  I sure hope this ammo shortage is all over with by 2018, because I'll be wanting to buy a box of ammo by then.


If I get into a gunfight, I hope it's with you.
 
2013-05-17 10:38:36 AM

snocone: dittybopper: Frank N Stein: An ammo shortage for a police department wouldn't cause the officers to not carry a sidearm. He'd still have whatever he carried before, and with just as many rounds in the magazine or wheel. What it would do is reduce range and training time. So when it comes time for Officer Friendly to empty is magazine at a suspect, he'd be an even worse aim and endanger even more so any bystanders.

I don't know how you cant see that.

There are ways to maintain basic marksmanship proficiency fairly cheaply.  Nothing beats actual range time, but the police departments in general require so little range time I can't see it being a major issue.

It is an issue with the LAPD. Giving the village idiot a gun w/o adequate training and continuing proficiency practice needs to be criminalized.
A gun is a pinpoint weapon. Spraying rounds in the general direction of an assumed target is the sign of utter incompetency.


Ever heard of suppressing fire?
 
2013-05-17 10:38:36 AM
Ammo IS getting more expensive, but this has a lot more to do with materials prices than anything else.

And leave it to the Liberals at NPR to find the idea of fairness inexplicable. This story told me far more about the author than about ammunition.
 
2013-05-17 10:38:56 AM
This thread reminded me to start checking around for target rounds.  Dicks "lodge" manager said they have gotten almost nothing in as far as ammo except .40 cal and shotgun shells.  He recently talked with ammo reps at an NRA "meeting" and they claim they are producing 3x capacity and still cant begin to meet demand.  Hoarders could not possibly be buying up the excess ammo, they would have simply run out of room by now.  Calling academy next.
 
2013-05-17 10:40:25 AM

dr_blasto: I don't state that people shooting are nutters. I am saying the paranoid people buying all the ammunition up just to stockpile tens of thousands of rounds for when 0bama comes to take their guns are nutters. They are nutters.


After the last ammo shortage a couple years back, when ammo started getting back on the market at reasonable prices, I stockpiled up roughly 1000 rounds for each caliber I use. Not because I'm a nutter, but because I knew these nutcases would pull this shiat again and I didn't want to spend $30-35 for a box of 9mm just to go to the range and relax...

I'm an avid shooter. I own a few firearms; throughout the wars at their peak(s), I never had an issue feeding any of my rifles or pistols, most of which use common NATO rounds like 5.56 or 9mm.

On the subject of .22LR, most people would buy by the brick as it was so friggin cheap. It takes a while to load and fire that shiat. I'm sure people still have quite a bit, but I haven't seen it on a shelf since early December. Some of my other shooting sports friends tell me that they think that mess was because the zombie/survivalist/endofworld types bought metric ass-tons up to store for 12/21/12, the end of times shiat. Whatever the reason, the government isn't buying that shiat, yet none is available.


Bought a box of 500 HP .22LR for like $7 a year ago or so, still working on it...
 
2013-05-17 10:42:09 AM
part of the problem:
And leave it to the Liberals at NPR to find the idea of fairness inexplicable. This story told me far more about the author than about ammunition.

Perhaps you would care to quote the part of TFA that indicates the author found this inexplicable. I re-read it and it reads to me as if the author finds it explicable and is in fact explicating it.
 
2013-05-17 10:43:31 AM

smitton: orclover.....how do you reload 22 shells....never heard of such a thing


No farking clue.  How bad is it that it would even be close to considered cost effective?
 
2013-05-17 10:43:59 AM
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children. This is not a way of life at all in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron.From a speech before the American Society of Newspaper Editors, April 16, 1953
 
2013-05-17 10:47:22 AM

dittybopper: There are ways to maintain basic marksmanship proficiency fairly cheaply. Nothing beats actual range time, but the police departments in general require so little range time I can't see it being a major issue.


That's true. They usually only have to shoot twice a year. I suppose reducing range time can have either effect.
 
2013-05-17 10:47:32 AM
So China hasn't picked up on this ? Don't know if I would buy Chinese ammo anyway.
 
2013-05-17 10:47:50 AM

NoGods: A local gun shop here is rationing ammunition by limiting customers to three boxes of each caliber per purchase. The owner said he is doing it so that he doesn't run out because that would affect his gun sales. He said people are unlikely to buy a gun if they can't also buy ammo for it at the same time.

Stockpilers are foolish, especially those paying high prices for bulk ammo. I have enough .380, .22lr and .357 magnums for my pistols to last me quite a while. By that I mean, less than 100 rounds of each. I have yet to go through an entire box of 20 hunting rounds during the 3-month deer season we have here in SC, and I usually get 5 deer/season. I'll go to the range and check my scope's zero with about 6 shots before the season starts and the rest are fired at deer. I'm not going to buy three boxes of hunting ammo.


3 boxes of hunting rounds seems excessive, but I've gone through several hundred .22 rounds in an hour or two when I was having fun.

That's the crux of the issue. Once again, gun control and the backlash is only affecting the plinkers.
 
2013-05-17 10:49:01 AM
Academy called.  Truck comes in betwen 5 and 7pm on thursday and fridays.  They are getting roughly 15 boxes of .22lr in at a time which is alot more than they used to a few years ago.  A group of people will typically wait around the desk waiting on the truck to come in and the ammo sells out within 10 minutes.  They are rationing 1 box per person right now which equals some upset people (who may be making a living off this).

Calling GT.
 
2013-05-17 10:49:10 AM

stevetherobot: snocone: dittybopper: Frank N Stein: An ammo shortage for a police department wouldn't cause the officers to not carry a sidearm. He'd still have whatever he carried before, and with just as many rounds in the magazine or wheel. What it would do is reduce range and training time. So when it comes time for Officer Friendly to empty is magazine at a suspect, he'd be an even worse aim and endanger even more so any bystanders.

I don't know how you cant see that.

There are ways to maintain basic marksmanship proficiency fairly cheaply.  Nothing beats actual range time, but the police departments in general require so little range time I can't see it being a major issue.

It is an issue with the LAPD. Giving the village idiot a gun w/o adequate training and continuing proficiency practice needs to be criminalized.
A gun is a pinpoint weapon. Spraying rounds in the general direction of an assumed target is the sign of utter incompetency.

Ever heard of suppressing fire?


There's that. But I doubt in the context of civilian law enforcement that suppressing fire is much needed or warranted
 
2013-05-17 10:49:57 AM

orclover: Haven't seen ammo on the shelves (other than shotgun shells) in months at sport stores I frequent.  Been shooting every other week and I am down to a few hundred rounds of .22lr.  The range I frequent was selling reloads of .22 for $1 per 10 shells.  And they smirked a bit when they told me, they are really really getting off on this.  Right now if you can meet the delivery truck at the store you can make about $40 on average off a $15 box of shells, or more by reselling it on gunbroker or one of the other sites.  It's pretty farking crazy.  The ammo manufacturers are too farking scared of what laws may or may not be passed to ramp up production to meet demand.  Eventually they will and this will pass.  Until then, target shooting has gotten farking expensive.


I was wondering about this -- if people can't get it at the store, there must be some enterprising folks who stocked up early and are re-selling at a higher price.  Kinda like with fuel during the month or so after Sandy hit the Northeast.
 
2013-05-17 10:50:32 AM

cig-mkr: So China hasn't picked up on this ? Don't know if I would buy Chinese ammo anyway.


Ironically it wouldn't have any lead in it.
 
2013-05-17 10:50:45 AM

cig-mkr: So China hasn't picked up on this ? Don't know if I would buy Chinese ammo anyway.


I've put steel cased Russian ammo through one of my guns with no ill effects. But the gun in question was a Walther PPQ and she's not picky about food because muh german engineering and whatnot.
 
2013-05-17 10:52:06 AM

Frank N Stein: There's that. But I doubt in the context of civilian law enforcement that suppressing fire is much needed or warranted


Tell that to those Mexican chicks the LAPD lit up like Christmas. Without even killing one, I might add.
 
2013-05-17 10:52:40 AM

dittybopper: HoustonNick: dittybopper:

So innocents being killed is a numbers game to you?  I'm not sure what you mean by "actual net negative value" when you are talking about people dying.  More bad guys then good?

Just to be clear, two simple questions:

1.   Are you happy if an innocent (suspect, victim, cop) is killed because of the scarcity?
2.   Would that be the best use of your tax dollars EVAR?

Could it be any clearer that "If on balance more innocents live than die, than yes"?

Or are you innumerate?


PSSSST: he's trying to get you to say that you love it so much when innocent people die and bad guys run rampant.  We can all go home if you just say it.
 
2013-05-17 10:56:32 AM

stevetherobot: Ever heard of suppressing fire?


Suppressive fire still needs to be precise, well-aimed fire. You don't throw up a wall of lead, when a single shot towards the head will do. This is infantry 101 stuff- the bullet that just makes noise isn't living up to its full potential.

As the Marines say, "My rifle and I know that what counts in war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, or the smoke we make.We know that it is the hits that count."
 
2013-05-17 10:56:39 AM

Jackson Herring: I've been told that the national weather service has purchased in excess of seventy trillion rounds of hollow-point armor piercing incindiery anti-personnel ammunition, so this is probably to blame


Militant Global Warming Activists.
 
2013-05-17 10:57:47 AM

Oblio13: catusr: I have 40 9mm bullets in my ammo box.  For me, that is a five year supply.  I shoot off a single magazine (8 bullets) once a year.  I think that's good enough to stay familiar with the pistol.  I sure hope this ammo shortage is all over with by 2018, because I'll be wanting to buy a box of ammo by then.

If I get into a gunfight, I hope it's with you.


I was thinking the same thing; only 8 rounds a year? We only go to the range a few times a year (expensive hobby right now, unfortunately), but we still shoot around 100 rounds every time we go. It's basically an expensive paper weight if you don't practice with it.
 
2013-05-17 10:57:55 AM

doglover: Frank N Stein: There's that. But I doubt in the context of civilian law enforcement that suppressing fire is much needed or warranted

Tell that to those Mexican chicks the LAPD lit up like Christmas. Without even killing one, I might add.


oi39.tinypic.com
 
2013-05-17 10:58:30 AM

Lucky LaRue: HoustonNick: Don't forget that DHS purchased 1.6 Billion rounds.  Regardless of whether those purchases were or were not justified, the purchases did reduce the available ammunition supply.

I hope it was for the purpose of causing scarcity - that would be the best use of my tax dollars EVAR.


To infringe on an enumerated right?
 
2013-05-17 10:58:36 AM

madgonad: However, in normal capitalism if the market really did expand that much there would be massive new investment in ammunition production. Businesses would be scrambling to get loans to build or expand new plants to capitalize on that demand. That didn't happen. Some plants extended shifts to increase production, but that isn't an investment. Nobody is investing more money to meet this demand.


Actually, yes they are.

Hornady even has an FAQ about how they've been expanding their manufacturing capacity.

Remington is expanding their ammo manufacturing at their plant in Arkansas, including the construction of a whole new building.

The problem is that ammunition demand was pretty much at the capacity of the manufacturers to provide it for years, and when the current rush for ammo happened, supply exceeded demand.

The manufacturers are working to correct that, but it's going to take time to add the capacity.
 
2013-05-17 10:59:58 AM
GT has .22LR AMMO! 1 box of any ammo per person max.  .22lr ammo in 500 round box (brick) selling for...........$40 bucks.  Same price as the auction scalpers online.   Thats maybe 2 days of plinking.  Hooooleeeeeeshiat.


Im done, i'm farking done, farkit, I quit.  My kids too small to be doing skeet shooting with an 870 home defense shotgun and target shooting juts turned into a rich mans sport.  Ironically black powder is still affordable so we could go blow up trashcans if I didn't mind committing felony's and teaching him how to be an anarchist.

Hmmm leads still cheap.  Black powder is still cheap.   Anybody got a musket or old blackpowder sixshooter they wanna sell cheap?  No DL needed since its archaic.  EIP.

/TAO!
assets.diylol.com
 
2013-05-17 11:00:52 AM
Sigh.  Yes, some nutters stock up on ammunition because they are a bunch of paranoid conspiracy morans.  A lot of shooters and hunters, however, stock up when ammunition goes on sale BECAUSE IT SAVES THEM MONEY!
 
2013-05-17 11:01:55 AM

dittybopper


The problem is that ammunition demand was pretty much at the capacity of the manufacturers to provide it for years, and when the current rush for ammo happened, supply exceeded demand demand exceeded supply.


We knew what you meant - just a polite correction before some jackarse rolls in with a derptastic correction.
 
2013-05-17 11:02:05 AM

teenytinycornteeth: PSSSST: he's trying to get you to say that you love it so much when innocent people die and bad guys run rampant.  We can all go home if you just say it.


Ah, but I'm more stubborn than he is.
 
2013-05-17 11:02:50 AM

Frank N Stein: doglover: Frank N Stein: There's that. But I doubt in the context of civilian law enforcement that suppressing fire is much needed or warranted

Tell that to those Mexican chicks the LAPD lit up like Christmas. Without even killing one, I might add.

[oi39.tinypic.com image 600x392]


Just what did those women think they were doing delivering newspapers at that time of the morning?
 
2013-05-17 11:03:11 AM

dittybopper: Remington is expanding their ammo manufacturing at their plant in Arkansas, including the construction of a whole new building.


Yay! so I can jam up my guns even more!

No seriously they make the most crappy .22lr ammo I have ever seen in my life.
 
2013-05-17 11:03:24 AM
I don't know what shortage you're talking about.

/Arizona
 
2013-05-17 11:03:46 AM

Englebert Slaptyback: dittybopper

The problem is that ammunition demand was pretty much at the capacity of the manufacturers to provide it for years, and when the current rush for ammo happened, supply exceeded demand demand exceeded supply.


We knew what you meant - just a polite correction before some jackarse rolls in with a derptastic correction.


Yeah, a *DUH* moment on my part.

In my defense, the distaffbopper was badgering me about a faucet knob while I was typing it.
 
2013-05-17 11:04:30 AM

orclover: dittybopper: Remington is expanding their ammo manufacturing at their plant in Arkansas, including the construction of a whole new building.

Yay! so I can jam up my guns even more!

No seriously they make the most crappy .22lr ammo I have ever seen in my life.


Do you own a 10/22?
 
2013-05-17 11:06:04 AM
Go through about 500 .22LR every time I go to the range. Just fun plinking.
Costs about $20. Not going to be shooting 500 rounds through my 9mm, 'cause that would cost too much, and yeah, just sight in the deer rifle with a few rounds and put that away. It's the crazy hoarders that are causing this and I wish they would go away for a while and let the market settle back down again...
 
2013-05-17 11:07:54 AM

orclover: dittybopper: Remington is expanding their ammo manufacturing at their plant in Arkansas, including the construction of a whole new building.

Yay! so I can jam up my guns even more!

No seriously they make the most crappy .22lr ammo I have ever seen in my life.


Personally, when I shot modern ammo, I preferred Federal Premium.  Oh, look, they're increasing capacity too:

WHY CAN'T YOU JUST MAKE MORE AMMUNITION?Our facilities operate 24-hours a day. We are continually making process improvements to increase our efficiency and investing in capital and personnel where we have sustained demand. We are bringing additional capacity online again this year.
 
2013-05-17 11:09:01 AM
It's speculators.   People are buying ammo to make money of it by reselling at high prices.   It's like the comic book thing back in the 80s and early 90s.   People with no real interest in the product see an opportunity to profit, so they start buying.   That causes the supply to be less for the regular customer, which causes panic buying, which further raises prices, which increases profits for speculators.   So MORE speculators jump in.

Somewhere down the line the bubble will burst and a bunch of people are going to be stuck with boxes of ammo they paid a lot of money for, but since they are speculators they have no use for that ammo.  So the market is going to get flooded with cheap ammo as they attempt to dump it all.
 
2013-05-17 11:10:08 AM

Gonz: HoustonNick: FYI, its not like gun owners made up what Obama, Biden, Feinstein, Bloomberg, et al were doing, they were in fact trying to get new gun ban legislation passed. That caused gun owners to react before the legislation could get passed.

Actually, the only gun action Obama took in his entire first term was expanding concealed-carry rights on public land to pass a bill that was a cornerstone of his economic and consumer protection reformafter first supporting a judge's decision to issue an injunction banning the practice and not appealing it.

From the moment the 2008 election was decided, gun stores were going with a "stock up while you can, before the scary gun-grabber grabs your guns!" message. And why wouldn't they? It's a proven effective marketing scheme. I saw it work during the Clinton years, I saw a gun store in Tennessee (and I thought this was brilliant) with a "Don't trust Florida" message during the 2000 recount, and I saw it work when the Democrats took control of Congress in 2006. At all these points in time, the mere fact that Democrats had political influence was reason enough for gun stores to push the "they're a-gonna take yer guns!" marketing message, and it apparently proved effective to its target audience.

There's a certain segment of America that is just really susceptible to having guns sold to them in this manner. "Act now, before the politicians repeal the Second Amendment" is an easy way to get them to respond like Pavlov's dogs.


FTFY. We don't even have to touch on his attempts in his 2nd term.
 
2013-05-17 11:13:40 AM
Cabela's had bulk Winchester .22 (525 count) on sale last summer for $17 a box.  I got six boxes.  I've gone through maybe two.  If I wanted to I could go on gunbroker or armslist and sell them for upwards of $40 a box.  My local range was selling 50 round boxes of .22 for $6.00.  It was Aguila, which is generally a lot nicer than Winchester, but that would work out to $60.00 for 500 rounds.  No .22 should cost that much.

My LGS is fairly well-stocked with everything, 9mm, 5.56, 7.62, .308 (Remington, $19 a box, which is not nearly as inflated as the other calibers, that's only a few bucks off of pre-panic pricing).  But these assholes are selling American Eagle 5.56 for $15 a box, and shiatty Russian steel-cased 7.62 for $13 a box (the same price as the brass-cased stuff).  Needless to say, I won't be buying any ammunition from them ever again.
 
2013-05-17 11:14:05 AM

Gonz: Actually, the only gun action Obama took in his entire first term was expanding concealed-carry rights on public land.


Bzzt.  Wrong.
 
2013-05-17 11:14:57 AM

Birnone: It's speculators.   People are buying ammo to make money of it by reselling at high prices.


More like hoarders.
 
2013-05-17 11:15:59 AM

HotIgneous Intruder: American Taliban.
They loves them some guns and pickups and Jesus.


0/10, barely worth commenting on.
 
2013-05-17 11:16:04 AM

Frank N Stein: orclover: dittybopper: Remington is expanding their ammo manufacturing at their plant in Arkansas, including the construction of a whole new building.

Yay! so I can jam up my guns even more!

No seriously they make the most crappy .22lr ammo I have ever seen in my life.

Do you own a 10/22?


I wish I had one.  I do have an old sears 19-0-something lever action single shot rifle and a ruger 22/45 plinker.  A 10/22 would be awesome :(

dittybopper: WHY CAN'T YOU JUST MAKE MORE AMMUNITION?Our facilities operate 24-hours a day. We are continually making process improvements to increase our efficiency and investing in capital and personnel where we have sustained demand. We are bringing additional capacity online again this year.


I have always wanted to fire black powder (I mean other than home made "firecrackers").  Yer doin it right son.
 
2013-05-17 11:16:09 AM

stevetherobot: Are you saying that you would be fine with 10 innocent people dying if 5 innocent lives are saved?


It depends on the situation.  Men are not potatoes.
 
2013-05-17 11:16:47 AM

Fark It: No .22 should cost that much.


Here about 3 weeks ago, CCI Mini Mags are going for abut $120 for 500 rounds on Gunbroker.  That has come down to about $75 here recently.
 
2013-05-17 11:18:37 AM

dittybopper: Birnone: It's speculators.   People are buying ammo to make money of it by reselling at high prices.

More like hoarders.


Yeah, if it were speculators, the commodity would eventually find its way back to the market.  For the hoarders, it is time to forget about it because it is gone until the estate sale.
 
2013-05-17 11:19:22 AM
There is also a large number of new gun owners. I personally know several. After Newtown, a lot of people who were on the fence about buying a gun bought one. All of those people who bought guns are going to need ammo therefore compounding the problem.
 
2013-05-17 11:20:16 AM

dittybopper: Birnone: It's speculators.   People are buying ammo to make money of it by reselling at high prices.

More like hoarders.


Why not both?
 
2013-05-17 11:20:20 AM

HeadLever: Fark It: No .22 should cost that much.

Here about 3 weeks ago, CCI Mini Mags are going for abut $120 for 500 rounds on Gunbroker.  That has come down to about $75 here recently.


Holy shiat.  This keeps up and I will need to buy my son a bow.

/honestly he should have one anyways, the rest of us do.
 
2013-05-17 11:20:39 AM
Subby's headline fails, since article has nothing to do with the CAUSE of the shortage, but rather the economics (or lack thereof) of prices remaining stable during the shortage.

When the commodity becomes scarce then as a seller you can do one of three things 1) ignore it; 2) raise prices to reduce consumption; or 3) ration sales to reduce consumption.

Apparently the store-front businesses don't want to do #2 because they think their customers will brand them as thieves, traitors, and evil.  Since their ammo customers belong to a segment of society that has proven itself irrational, vindictive and incapable of understanding market forces numerous times already I sort of understand that.  So the smart stores are doing #3.  The much smarter stores should be emptying their own shelves and re-selling it at TRUE market rates (whatever people will pay) online through a front that won't be clearly tracked back to them.
 
2013-05-17 11:21:05 AM
subby is retarded. the nra is not needed to scare people in to buying guns obamatarddid that.
 
2013-05-17 11:21:40 AM

Aarontology: It's been me, guys.

I've been buying up as much ammunition as possible in order to make my Bullet Mountain theme park.


You bastard. If only I had some device capable of launching small projectiles at very high speeds so that I could stop your madness...
 
2013-05-17 11:22:15 AM

dittybopper: Birnone: It's speculators.   People are buying ammo to make money of it by reselling at high prices.

More like hoarders.


I hope when production capacity finally matches up with demand and the prices bottom out the speculators and hoarders are going to have to panic-sell to cover rent all of the shiat they panic-bought.  Yes, some of them are coming after your guns, and gun owners in New York State and a couple of other places got shafted hard, but anybody who looked at the make-up of Congress and thought an AWB and significant, Brady/VPC-dream legislation was going to make it to Obama's desk is a moron.

Hopefully all of the casuals who thought "now might be a good time before it's too late" to get that first rifle and stretched their budgets accordingly will sell off in a couple of years.  It's not like anybody who panic-bought is able to get nearly enough ammunition for range-time anyway.
 
2013-05-17 11:22:44 AM

dittybopper: madgonad: However, in normal capitalism if the market really did expand that much there would be massive new investment in ammunition production. Businesses would be scrambling to get loans to build or expand new plants to capitalize on that demand. That didn't happen. Some plants extended shifts to increase production, but that isn't an investment. Nobody is investing more money to meet this demand.

Actually, yes they are.

Hornady even has an FAQ about how they've been expanding their manufacturing capacity.

Remington is expanding their ammo manufacturing at their plant in Arkansas, including the construction of a whole new building.

The problem is that ammunition demand was pretty much at the capacity of the manufacturers to provide it for years, and when the current rush for ammo happened, supply exceeded demand.

The manufacturers are working to correct that, but it's going to take time to add the capacity.


I don't know where you get your manufacturers, but where I get mine, they know the demand and plan for it. Then outside profiteering schemes and hidden political agendas take hold.
 
2013-05-17 11:23:11 AM

orclover: This thread reminded me to start checking around for target rounds.  Dicks "lodge" manager said they have gotten almost nothing in as far as ammo except .40 cal and shotgun shells.  He recently talked with ammo reps at an NRA "meeting" and they claim they are producing 3x capacity and still cant begin to meet demand.  Hoarders could not possibly be buying up the excess ammo, they would have simply run out of room by now.  Calling academy next.


I know one guy, personally, who claims to have 40k of rifle rounds alone stockpiled.  And knowing this guy, I believe him.

There's a LOT of dingleberries stockpiling a lot of ammo.  And as others have pointed out, you also have speculative reselling stockpilers.
 
2013-05-17 11:24:02 AM

HeadLever: Fark It: No .22 should cost that much.

Here about 3 weeks ago, CCI Mini Mags are going for abut $120 for 500 rounds on Gunbroker.  That has come down to about $75 here recently.


Bulk CCI should cost maybe half that (half of $75).  My LGS used to sell 100 rounds of CCI for $9.00, which at the time was inflated.
 
2013-05-17 11:26:01 AM

orclover: Holy shiat. This keeps up and I will need to buy my son a bow.


Yeah, I have an excess of .22LR and pops was getting low during squirrel season.  You would have thought that he had the best birday ever when I gave him a couple hundred rounds.

/don't shoot .22LR much anymore
 
2013-05-17 11:26:10 AM

redmid17: We don't even have to touch on his attempts in his 2nd term.


This.

I called it at least 2 years ago here on Fark (and possibly earlier), saying that Obama wouldn't make any major moves towards gun control until after the election.

I was right, wasn't I?

But "Sandy Hook!", some will say, to which I say the attempted assassination of a congresswoman and the attack on the theater in Aurora weren't enough?  No, even if Sandy Hook had happened in December 2011 instead of December 2012, he still wouldn't have touched the issue until after the election.

President Obama isn't stupid, after all.  He's a *POLITICIAN* (just like the guy in the office before him, and the guy before him, etc.).  He's going to weigh the pros and cons of each action based upon what it will do for him.  After the election, he didn't have to worry about the electoral consequences of going all gun control-ly.
 
2013-05-17 11:26:18 AM
i970.photobucket.com
 
2013-05-17 11:29:03 AM

HoustonNick: The other anomaly is that everyone, everywhere has shotgun shells - another product the Gov't isn't buying.


I'm seeing a localized shortage of shells, too.  Cabela's and Brownell's are backordered on more popular loads like 12 ga 7-1/2 bird, and the local big-box sporting goods store had maybe three boxes total.
 
2013-05-17 11:31:08 AM
For the hell of it here's my meager inventory

200 rds - 30-06
20 rds - 9mm
20 rds - .44 mag

fark today's prices. They're already slowly climbing down. I'll wait a bit before shooting again.
 
2013-05-17 11:31:36 AM

orclover: I have always wanted to fire black powder (I mean other than home made "firecrackers").  Yer doin it right son.


I was born with a flintlock in my hand:

img144.imageshack.us
 
2013-05-17 11:36:20 AM

dittybopper: In my defense, the distaffbopper was badgering me about a faucet knob while I was typing it.


A shot of penicillin will clear that right up.
 
2013-05-17 11:37:16 AM

orclover: HeadLever: Fark It: No .22 should cost that much.

Here about 3 weeks ago, CCI Mini Mags are going for abut $120 for 500 rounds on Gunbroker.  That has come down to about $75 here recently.

Holy shiat.  This keeps up and I will need to buy my son a bow.

/honestly he should have one anyways, the rest of us do.


You should.  I started the littlebopper on a bow when he was 4 or 5.
 
2013-05-17 11:37:26 AM

Dr Dreidel: dittybopper: There is a fairly large subset of gun owners who just *LOVE* to "knife perceived traitors in the back", so a gun store that relies on repeat customers has to tread lightly for fear of being perceived as a traitor by a large number of their customers.

So you're admitting that gun owners, as a group, are reactionary nutbars?


So you're saying a lib that doesn't shop at Wal-Mart because they don't like the company's policies towards organized labor and international sweatshops are reactionary nutbars?
 
2013-05-17 11:39:18 AM
Ammo prices are high.  Used to, you could get a brick of .22lr for around $20.  I went to a gun show to get a brick of .22lf and all the dealers were selling them for $80-$85/brick.  I was pretty shocked at the price.
 
2013-05-17 11:39:27 AM

Frank N Stein: For the hell of it here's my meager inventory

200 rds - 30-06
20 rds - 9mm
20 rds - .44 mag

fark today's prices. They're already slowly climbing down. I'll wait a bit before shooting again.



Yeah, for me:
200 rds 30-06 (120 needs to be reloaded)
150 rds 6mm rem(100 needs to be reloaded)
500 rds 204R (all loaded)
500 rds 20vt (all loaded)
1600 rds .22lr

Pretty good in that regard, but I reload everthing (but the .22 obviosly) and I am getting pretty low on powder.
 
2013-05-17 11:41:00 AM
Well if the GOP gets the senate and holds on to the house in '14 the panic buying should back off.

If the DNCCCP gains control of the house and holds the senate the panic buying will go even more full retard till '16 or later
 
2013-05-17 11:41:40 AM
www.guns.com

2.bp.blogspot.com
excellentquotations.com

votingamerican.files.wordpress.com
3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-05-17 11:42:51 AM
There are enough thoughtful and well reasoned arguments in here to make me wonder if this, in fact, Fark.  Well done.

/good arguments lose validity when name calling and whining get thrown in
//sadly I suspect if I stop by again later it will have all gone to hell
 
2013-05-17 11:45:55 AM

floggingworks: There are enough thoughtful and well reasoned arguments in here to make me wonder if this, in fact, Fark.  Well done.

/good arguments lose validity when name calling and whining get thrown in
//sadly I suspect if I stop by again later it will have all gone to hell


Shut up asshole. Your type is what's wrong with this country


/ :)
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-05-17 11:46:34 AM

Saborlas: [i970.photobucket.com image 179x281]


Perfect. What's next? Markley's law infraction? I guess your ability to constructively engage in this discussion is nil.
 
2013-05-17 11:48:44 AM
Trying to use a witty headline while denying what the DHS has clearly done, is ignorant at best. Buying up over 1.6 billion rounds of 'Hollow Point' bullets and calling it 'for practice and target shooting for our nations security' is only something people that are uneducated about firearms, would believe. You aren't even allowed to fire hollow points at the vast majority of practice ranges in this country. You have to use full metal jacket. Hollow points expand up to cause more internal damage which if used at a range, you're just going to destroy the backstop of the firing range. Full metal jackets just go right through and the lead is later collected easily as opposed to fragments of a hollow point. With all that 1st grade Common Sense info said.. There is no reason for DHS to have purchased that many hollow points... Ever..
 
2013-05-17 11:51:02 AM

dittybopper: orclover: I have always wanted to fire black powder (I mean other than home made "firecrackers").  Yer doin it right son.

I was born with a flintlock in my hand:

[img144.imageshack.us image 320x240]


That must've been painful for your mother.
 
2013-05-17 11:52:34 AM

russsssman: Trying to use a witty headline while denying what the DHS has clearly done, is ignorant at best. Buying up over 1.6 billion rounds of 'Hollow Point' bullets and calling it 'for practice and target shooting for our nations security' is only something people that are uneducated about firearms, would believe. You aren't even allowed to fire hollow points at the vast majority of practice ranges in this country. You have to use full metal jacket. Hollow points expand up to cause more internal damage which if used at a range, you're just going to destroy the backstop of the firing range. Full metal jackets just go right through and the lead is later collected easily as opposed to fragments of a hollow point. With all that 1st grade Common Sense info said.. There is no reason for DHS to have purchased that many hollow points... Ever..


It should also be pointed out that many will say "well there's a military branch that falls under the Dhs (coast guard) so that could account for a lot of the ammo". But the coast guard doesn't use hollow points (expanding bullets violate the hague convention)
 
2013-05-17 11:53:32 AM

gja: Saborlas: [i970.photobucket.com image 179x281]

Perfect. What's next? Markley's law infraction? I guess your ability to constructively engage in this discussion is nil.


That *IS* a Markley's Law infraction:  It equates firearms with a penis.
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-05-17 11:53:54 AM

Douggernaut: dittybopper: orclover: I have always wanted to fire black powder (I mean other than home made "firecrackers").  Yer doin it right son.

I was born with a flintlock in my hand:

[img144.imageshack.us image 320x240]

That must've been painful for your mother.


Maybe a breech birth, too.

Perhaps he came barreling out?

I wonder what was on the live birth report?

/Ok, enough w/the guns terminology
 
2013-05-17 11:58:21 AM
It's weird that people think Obama is coming after their guns when Obama has said time and again he is coming after their guns.

Stupid mouth breathers, amirite?
 
2013-05-17 11:59:46 AM

GORDON: It's weird that people think Obama is coming after their guns when Obama has said time and again he is coming after their guns.

Stupid mouth breathers, amirite?


But he's not coming for all the guns, just certain types! So it doesn't count.

You still get to keep your Biden approved coach gun!
 
2013-05-17 12:01:38 PM

gja: Dr. Goldshnoz: its funny I always see people get so zealous about gun owners and gun lobby. if you spent half as much time realizing the damage caused by legal gun owners is statistically tiny, and the 'disproportionate' lobby power is exactly the same as with every other group in the history of lobbying, you might be able to apply all your 15 minutes of faux rage at issues that actually seriously affect this country and the world like, oh, I don't know; the disproportionate power of the bank lobby, or the petroleum lobby, or the christian lobby, or the drug war lobby, or the anti woman's rights lobby, or the warmongers lobby, or any of dozens of other things advocated with a full intention of farking over everyone in the country and world for a quick buck.

where's your bleeding heart for people farked by banks?

where's your bleeding heart for people sick from fossil fuel poisons?

you harp on gun owners because its easy and you are lazy in your theatre at giving a shiat.

I almost wish you weren't already a TF'er so I could gift you some.


Yep. This. As a libby lib liberson I've decided that I (generally in the scheme of things) don't much care about guns or gun control. The data show that gun ownership is down (although some folks own LOTS of guns), crime is down, gun suicides are the biggest cause of gun death, and mass shootings are down (I was surprised). The data also don't point to any clear evidence that much can be done to cure some of the problems with gun deaths (except for suicide) with most sorts of gun regulations.

If a rational "well-regulated" gun control issue is on my ballot I'll probably vote for it but I won't get my panties in a wad about the issue.

I wish more effort would be made to attempt to reduce the number of gun suicides (and men's rights guys...here's an issue to take on...it impacts men more than women) and would also vote for funding and efforts to reduce this.

Well, maybe a big scarlet "dumbass" tattoo on the forehead for those who survive "dumbass" gun accidents. If you shoot your friend in the face while hunting...or shoot yourself in the leg getting in the car are good examples of dumbassery.
 
2013-05-17 12:02:31 PM

JustGetItRight: Dr Dreidel: dittybopper: There is a fairly large subset of gun owners who just *LOVE* to "knife perceived traitors in the back", so a gun store that relies on repeat customers has to tread lightly for fear of being perceived as a traitor by a large number of their customers.

So you're admitting that gun owners, as a group, are reactionary nutbars?

So you're saying a lib that doesn't shop at Wal-Mart because they don't like the company's policies towards organized labor and international sweatshops are reactionary nutbars?


Based on a single data point - OMG they don't have the same opinion of guns that I do! - like the cited Eastern States Outdoor Show, where gun owners were pissed that the show wouldn't carry assault rifles even though they WOULD carry the same model Sig .40 they'd buy at Earl's Gun Show and Feed Lot the following week.

Rather than WalMart, who gets almost all of their products from sweatshop labor.

Not liking someone's politics is fine - as American as apfelstrudel - but taking it to the level the gun people dittybopper mentioned did takes you into "nutbar" territory. It can be both.

// a nuanced argument, to be sure
// and FTR, people that boycott WalMart are indeed "reactionaries"
 
2013-05-17 12:02:43 PM

Douggernaut: dittybopper: orclover: I have always wanted to fire black powder (I mean other than home made "firecrackers").  Yer doin it right son.

I was born with a flintlock in my hand:

[img144.imageshack.us image 320x240]

That must've been painful for your mother.


Do you know how hard it is to keep your powder dry in utero?
 
2013-05-17 12:04:39 PM
That's what happens when you live in perpetual fear.
 
2013-05-17 12:04:45 PM
While no fan of Obama the bullet shortage actually started back when GW decided to waltz into Iraq.
 
2013-05-17 12:04:48 PM
Actually there was a slew of articles about the ammo shortage three weeks ago.  The conclusion was the half a billion rounds (and counting) the government has purchased (DHS in this case) has put major upward price pressure on ammunition.  Some gov't sources said that was the government's intention - to drive up prices.  This makes sense if your intention is to curb gun use and can't get your legislation past your own party in the senate (to say nothing of the fact the house gave it a 0% chance of passing).

I wouldn't blame it on private person stockpiles.  Like the MBS market of today, it's a government bubble (fed's QE3) and the natural economic result is that when the buying stops the prices will come down, and probably dramatically.

I'm sure the articles are still out there - I did find this article leaning to the left.
 
2013-05-17 12:09:13 PM

Dr Dreidel: Not liking someone's politics is fine - as American as apfelstrudel - but taking it to the level the gun people dittybopper mentioned did takes you into "nutbar" territory. It can be both.


I don't think that's nutbar territory.  It's not paranoia if there really are elements out there that would *LOVE* nothing more to reduce gun ownership in the US to something similar to what it is in the UK.

And based upon his record prior to being elected president, Barack Obama is one of them (He was fine with an unconstitutional ban on handguns, for example).
 
2013-05-17 12:10:45 PM

stuffy: While no fan of Obama the bullet shortage actually started back when GW decided to waltz into Iraq.


No, it didn't.
 
2013-05-17 12:10:54 PM

madgonad: It is all panic buying. It has even trickled into .22lr because now that shooting regular cartridges has gotten so expensive people have been using their .22 at the range a lot more. That lead to 'better buy every box of .22....' mindset and cleared the shelves of that puny cartridge.

However, in normal capitalism if the market really did expand that much there would be massive new investment in ammunition production. Businesses would be scrambling to get loans to build or expand new plants to capitalize on that demand. That didn't happen. Some plants extended shifts to increase production, but that isn't an investment. Nobody is investing more money to meet this demand.

Why?

Because it isn't a real demand. When there is a white president again the panic will stop and prices will plummet. Anyone that took out big loans to expand production based upon high prices of ammo is going to go bankrupt when their sales dwindle. So the businesses are being smart. They are reaping a big pay day now, but because this is not the normal demand of the market - they anticipate that it will end.


^^^ More proof Clinton was the first black president^^^
 
2013-05-17 12:14:03 PM

puppetmaster745: madgonad: It is all panic buying. It has even trickled into .22lr because now that shooting regular cartridges has gotten so expensive people have been using their .22 at the range a lot more. That lead to 'better buy every box of .22....' mindset and cleared the shelves of that puny cartridge.

However, in normal capitalism if the market really did expand that much there would be massive new investment in ammunition production. Businesses would be scrambling to get loans to build or expand new plants to capitalize on that demand. That didn't happen. Some plants extended shifts to increase production, but that isn't an investment. Nobody is investing more money to meet this demand.

Why?

Because it isn't a real demand. When there is a white president again the panic will stop and prices will plummet. Anyone that took out big loans to expand production based upon high prices of ammo is going to go bankrupt when their sales dwindle. So the businesses are being smart. They are reaping a big pay day now, but because this is not the normal demand of the market - they anticipate that it will end.

^^^ More proof Clinton was the first black president^^^


Thanks Obama.
 
2013-05-17 12:17:58 PM
I read on the internet that the US government is also stockpiling ammo.
 
2013-05-17 12:19:37 PM

orclover: GT has .22LR AMMO! 1 box of any ammo per person max.  .22lr ammo in 500 round box (brick) selling for...........$40 bucks.  Same price as the auction scalpers online.   Thats maybe 2 days of plinking.  Hooooleeeeeeshiat.


Im done, i'm farking done, farkit, I quit.  My kids too small to be doing skeet shooting with an 870 home defense shotgun and target shooting juts turned into a rich mans sport.  Ironically black powder is still affordable so we could go blow up trashcans if I didn't mind committing felony's and teaching him how to be an anarchist.

Hmmm leads still cheap.  Black powder is still cheap.   Anybody got a musket or old blackpowder sixshooter they wanna sell cheap?  No DL needed since its archaic.  EIP.

/TAO!
[assets.diylol.com image 510x340]


Black powder is lots of fun. If you want a decent revolver, I recommend a Remington 1858 replica (don't get the super cheap ones with a brass frame; brass trigger guard is fine though). They can be had for around $150 and since they are a reproduction of an archaic design, aren't considered firearms for most legal purposes. That means no FFL transfers and the like. I picked up a used one in slightly beat-up condition on a gun auction site a couple years ago for $125, shipped straight to my door. It looks like they are still available in this price range  http://www.gunauction.com/buy/12089414/black-powder/1858-remington-bl a ck-powder-revolver

I would recommend not shooting real black powder (although I'm sure dittybopper will protest loudly). It's highly corrosive and cruds up the works very fast. I use Hodgdon triple seven black powder substitute (FFF granulation for pistols). It's much cleaner. Price wise, expect to pay around $25 for a pounds of powder (which will last you hundreds of shots) and maybe $15 for 100 bullets/balls (unless you want to get into making them yourself). So for $200 or so, you get the gun and enough supplies for several hundred shots.
It's great fun to shoot. I've taught several of my younger cousins with it. It's big and heavy so it's quite accurate with relatively low recoil and makes satisfying clouds of smoke when fired.

Black powder rifles can be had for a similar price or try buying a kit that you finish and assemble yourself if you're into that sort of thing. Dad got me one for Christmas last year and I entertained myself all winter building it.
 
2013-05-17 12:23:13 PM
Because of the shortage of ammo the NRA is now promoting the  'don't shoot until you see the white of their eyes' campaign..
\\I didn't read this on the internet
 
2013-05-17 12:35:43 PM

SmithHiller: Because of the shortage of ammo the NRA is now promoting the 'don't shoot until you see the white of their eyes' campaign..
\\I didn't read this on the internet


Ol' Hickory agrees.

And those alligators better watch their ass.
 
2013-05-17 12:37:05 PM

Frank N Stein: floggingworks: There are enough thoughtful and well reasoned arguments in here to make me wonder if this, in fact, Fark.  Well done.

/good arguments lose validity when name calling and whining get thrown in
//sadly I suspect if I stop by again later it will have all gone to hell

Shut up asshole. Your type is what's wrong with this country


/ :)


Came back for this, leaving satisfied.
 
2013-05-17 12:40:16 PM

Fark It: Hopefully all of the casuals who thought "now might be a good time before it's too late" to get that first rifle and stretched their budgets accordingly will sell off in a couple of years. It's not like anybody who panic-bought is able to get nearly enough ammunition for range-time anyway.


I hope they learn to be responsible gun owners who enjoy shooting, and pass it on to their friends and family in a positive way (NOT on the tip of a bullet).
 
2013-05-17 12:42:18 PM

dittybopper: Dr Dreidel: Not liking someone's politics is fine - as American as apfelstrudel - but taking it to the level the gun people dittybopper mentioned did takes you into "nutbar" territory. It can be both.

I don't think that's nutbar territory.


And I do, hence my OP and the subsequent posts affirming my belief. The cool thing is, neither of us is passionate enough about those positions to get all ragey about it.

Everyone could do with a bit of moderation and modulation of their gun opinions, and I get the sense that you thought at least one of those reactions was a bit overboard.

// I don't agree with Obama on gun control, FWIW
 
2013-05-17 12:48:30 PM

HeadLever: Frank N Stein: For the hell of it here's my meager inventory

200 rds - 30-06
20 rds - 9mm
20 rds - .44 mag

fark today's prices. They're already slowly climbing down. I'll wait a bit before shooting again.


Yeah, for me:
200 rds 30-06 (120 needs to be reloaded)
150 rds 6mm rem(100 needs to be reloaded)
500 rds 204R (all loaded)
500 rds 20vt (all loaded)
1600 rds .22lr

Pretty good in that regard, but I reload everthing (but the .22 obviosly) and I am getting pretty low on powder.


Ive got

About 400 rounds of 7.62x39(very low for something you can burn through that easy)
About 1krounds 7.62x54R
about 1k rounds of 8x57 mauser
About 800 rounds of .45 acp
about 600 rounds of .45 Long colt
about 350 rounds of .454 casull
About 50 rounds of .357 magnum
About 400 rounds of .38 special
about 100 rounds of .32 acp
About 125 rounds of .22 lr(very low as much thosecan burn through )
About 250 rounds of 12 ga
about 100 rounda of 20 ga
About 400 rounds of 9x19

I stocked up back when Schrub was POTUS in anticipation of people panic buying after a dem got in.
 
2013-05-17 12:52:58 PM

HoustonNick: dr_blasto:

The simplest answer is that because the natural production cycles slow down in winter, bad shiat happens in December and nutters panic and buy ammunition to stockpile in case of new restrictions causes shelves to be bare. This leads to other nutters noting the bare shelves and when they do see ammunition, they buy ALL of it. Other nutters notice it's become even harder to find ammo, so they buy palletloads. Wash, rinse, repeat.

The government isn't buying .22LR; why can't you find that?

Lots of biased (e.g. "nutters") assumptions there.

Does liking to target practice and shoot competively make you a Nutter?
What if you are a Liberal who likes to shoot, is the Liberal a  Nutter?
Are the Olympic Athletes who shoot Nutters?

I not sure why you can't find .22LR but from what I saw at the range, a lot of shooters switched to their .22s to reduce the cost (FYI, some articles have falsely stated that ammunition costs didn't increase.  Point in fact they did but generally in the 10-20% per box range.).  I know I started shooting my .22 more, but than all of a sudden I could find 9mm ammo everywhere, but no .22 ammo, so I switched back.

The other anomaly is that everyone, everywhere has shotgun shells - another product the Gov't isn't buying.


I'll tell you why you can't find .22lr, .223 and 9mm... ignorant morons who eat shiat like Glen Beck up stockpiling is number 1. Number 2 are speculators who carry around their stock in baby strollers selling it for 10x what they paid. Number 3 are schlubs like me who just want to go to the range to shoot. We can't because of Numbers 1 and 2.

Supply really is not the issue. It's that the hoarders and the speculators are buying it all before the rest of us can. And small gun shops are part of the problem because many are cashing in on the bullshiat "panic". The DHS thing was bullshiat spewed out by the right wing peusdo-media and, of course, many bought it hook, line and sinker. As somebody noted, it's way more nuanced than that. And please remember the great number of agencies under the DHS banner.

Let me tell you, all I want to do is to go out and blow some ammo at the range, .22lr mainly. I have two guns in .22 that are way fun to shoot. My daughter's Crickett (yes, that evil Crickett and no, it's not pink) is also  .22lr. But because of the morons in this country, I have to be careful with what I shoot.

I am convinced that the dumbest assholes out there are members of the American "gun culture".
 
2013-05-17 12:54:57 PM

HeadLever: Frank N Stein: For the hell of it here's my meager inventory

200 rds - 30-06
20 rds - 9mm
20 rds - .44 mag

fark today's prices. They're already slowly climbing down. I'll wait a bit before shooting again.


Yeah, for me:
200 rds 30-06 (120 needs to be reloaded)
150 rds 6mm rem(100 needs to be reloaded)
500 rds 204R (all loaded)
500 rds 20vt (all loaded)
1600 rds .22lr

Pretty good in that regard, but I reload everthing (but the .22 obviosly) and I am getting pretty low on powder.


Some of the enthusiasts that I know believe in keeping 1000 rds per gun.
 
2013-05-17 01:02:20 PM

orclover: smitton: orclover.....how do you reload 22 shells....never heard of such a thing

No farking clue.  How bad is it that it would even be close to considered cost effective?


It's possible, but highly inadvisable.  It isn't likely cost effective for .22 LR, but for .22 WMR, 5mm, and similar it possibly is.  Those tend to cost closer to what 9mm rounds do.

I haven't tried any of the below, but I have researched it before as a matter of curiosity.

The first issue is that you need to swage them or use some other method to re-form the rim.  Without doing this the round may work, but only if the firing pin strikes a 'fresh' part of the rim, so this is more a reliability issue than anything.

The bigger issue is re-priming.  It requires having a priming compound, which tend to be highly explosive.  Half a teaspoon can probably do a thousand rounds, but it can also kill you just for lucking at it funny.  You have to work with it wet and coat the bottom of the case by spinning it in a drill or something similar, then let it dry.

After that, powder, but that's trivial, and many common powders are fine.

Finally you have to find a bullet that will work properly.  For a .22 WMR I understand you can use some commercially available bullets, but there isn't really anything out there for .22 LR.  You'll probably have to invest a couple hundred in a casting furnace, custom molds and the usual casting accessories.

You can refit a .25ACP shell holder and dies to do the seating and crimping.

Not worth it, really.
 
2013-05-17 01:04:08 PM

Evil Mackerel: Some of the enthusiasts that I know believe in keeping 1000 rds per gun.


True, but when you reload, you are not limited by the brass cases you have (you can generally get between 5 and 20 reloads out of them depending upon how you do things), but by the components (primers, powder and bullets) you have stocked up. In that regard, I have enough for about 1000 additional for each caliber, except where I have no powder for the 20vt.  I seriously need to get my hands on some H4198 or Reloader7.
 
2013-05-17 01:07:45 PM

trotsky: I'll tell you why you can't find .22lr, .223 and 9mm... ignorant morons who eat shiat like Glen Beck up stockpiling is number 1. Number 2 are speculators who carry around their stock in baby strollers selling it for 10x what they paid. Number 3 are schlubs like me who just want to go to the range to shoot. We can't because of Numbers 1 and 2.

Supply really is not the issue. It's that the hoarders and the speculators are buying it all before the rest of us can. And small gun shops are part of the problem because many are cashing in on the bullshiat "panic". The DHS thing was bullshiat spewed out by the right wing peusdo-media and, of course, many bought it hook, line and sinker. As somebody noted, it's way more nuanced than that. And please remember the great number of agencies under the DHS banner.

Let me tell you, all I want to do is to go out and blow some ammo at the range, .22lr mainly. I have two guns in .22 that are way fun to shoot. My daughter's Crickett (yes, that evil Crickett and no, it's not pink) is also .22lr. But because of the morons in this country, I have to be careful with what I shoot.

I am convinced that the dumbest assholes out there are members of the American "gun culture".


You know, this is one of the reasons why I haven't gotten a concealed carry permit in Texas yet (moved down here two years ago).

Texas has two levels of concealed carry permit; small cal and "everything."  If you qualify for everything you can carry, well, anything.  The only "large" pistol I own is a 9mm and due to idiots it's not worth going to the range to get ready to take a concealed carry class/test.
 
2013-05-17 01:08:12 PM

catusr: I have 40 9mm bullets in my ammo box.  For me, that is a five year supply.  I shoot off a single magazine (8 bullets) once a year.  I think that's good enough to stay familiar with the pistol.  I sure hope this ammo shortage is all over with by 2018, because I'll be wanting to buy a box of ammo by then.


What's your address?
 
2013-05-17 01:09:40 PM

Dr Dreidel: And I do, hence my OP and the subsequent posts affirming my belief. The cool thing is, neither of us is passionate enough about those positions to get all ragey about it.


I don't get ragey.

That doesn't mean I don't have a deeply held opinion on the subject.
 
2013-05-17 01:16:53 PM

Draskuul: Not worth it, really.


exactly.  It can be done, but will likely cost you more than reloading centerfires and take a pile more time.  Plus, you have to deal with the priming compound which is nasty stuff.  Bullets are not standard and I don't think are sold to the public, which means a lead pot and mold to cast your own.

Lots of work for somthing that can be purchased (typically) for 4 to 5 cents each.  Now, when you get into centerfire calibers, that is a different story altogether as factory ammo can range in price from .20 cents (for milliary bulk) up to a buck or two each for high quality hunting loads.  You can generally reload cheaper and more accurate ammunition than you can get from the factory.
 
2013-05-17 01:19:45 PM
Thanks for the TF for a month random, anonymous Fark person!! Fun!
 
2013-05-17 01:23:25 PM

dittybopper: Dr Dreidel: And I do, hence my OP and the subsequent posts affirming my belief. The cool thing is, neither of us is passionate enough about those positions to get all ragey about it.

I don't get ragey.

That doesn't mean I don't have a deeply held opinion on the subject.


Your deeply-held opinion doesn't preclude level-headed discussion. I know we've tangled on this topic, and I know how deep your views are, but I also get the sense that you're not above looking dispassionately at your own opinion.

We can disagree politely - I'm down with that.
 
2013-05-17 01:30:42 PM

Satanic_Hamster: trotsky:
Texas has two levels of concealed carry permit; small cal and "everything."  If you qualify for everything you can carry, well, anything.  The only "large" pistol I own is a 9mm and due to idiots it's not worth going to the range to get ready to take a concealed carry class/test.


That's not a large pistol.

THIS is a large pistol.

img543.imageshack.us

(Magnum Research BFR in .45-70.  Not mine, was a special order for a customer)
//sorry for the crappy pic...
 
2013-05-17 01:35:32 PM

Skyd1v: That's not a large pistol.

THIS is a large pistol.


Hence the "large."
 
2013-05-17 01:36:09 PM
Huh. I have no problem buying my 6.5x55 ammo for my Mauser.
 
2013-05-17 01:41:22 PM

Dr Dreidel: dittybopper: Dr Dreidel: And I do, hence my OP and the subsequent posts affirming my belief. The cool thing is, neither of us is passionate enough about those positions to get all ragey about it.

I don't get ragey.

That doesn't mean I don't have a deeply held opinion on the subject.

Your deeply-held opinion doesn't preclude level-headed discussion. I know we've tangled on this topic, and I know how deep your views are, but I also get the sense that you're not above looking dispassionately at your own opinion.

We can disagree politely - I'm down with that.


I'm funny that way.
 
2013-05-17 01:45:35 PM
One can never have enough ammo on hand. I am at a comfortable level, waiting for the prices to bottom out  (supply and demand, it is coming) then restock large.

If you look at the historical pricing of all ammo, it gets nothing but more expensive over time. Especially when Democrats are in office.
 
2013-05-17 01:49:41 PM
Good.  Make those prices as high as possible.
 
2013-05-17 01:50:51 PM

Satanic_Hamster: Skyd1v: That's not a large pistol.

THIS is a large pistol.

Hence the "large."


Hey, it was the first time in a long while I got to paraphrase "Crocodile Dundee".  Can you blame me?
 
gja [TotalFark]
2013-05-17 02:06:11 PM

dittybopper: Dr Dreidel: dittybopper: Dr Dreidel: And I do, hence my OP and the subsequent posts affirming my belief. The cool thing is, neither of us is passionate enough about those positions to get all ragey about it.

I don't get ragey.

That doesn't mean I don't have a deeply held opinion on the subject.

Your deeply-held opinion doesn't preclude level-headed discussion. I know we've tangled on this topic, and I know how deep your views are, but I also get the sense that you're not above looking dispassionately at your own opinion.

We can disagree politely - I'm down with that.

I'm funny that way.


Funny How?.........
encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com
 
2013-05-17 02:17:03 PM
NEWS FLASH: RETAILERS ARE IN IT FOR THE MONEY.
 
2013-05-17 02:19:02 PM
LadySusan:
If a rational "well-regulated" gun control issue is on my ballot I'll probably vote for it but I won't get my panties in a wad about the issue
yes..please more of this...someone who doesnt agree with the issue, and doesnt debase the opposition. It is pretty sad how quickly both sides resort to personal attacks based on limited information.

On the topic of hoarding....for as long as I have had guns, I've always bought ammunition in bulk.  I buy oil for my car in bulk. I buy mustard in bulk.  When an item has a long shelf life and it is to be known to be consumed at some point in time, it is good economic practice to buy the item in larger quantities.  So am I a mustard/oil/ammo hoarder?   In the wintertime I buy extra can goods so that if we get a big snow, I dont have to go to the store.  I dont understand why people have such issues with purchasing extra of what you use a lot of.
 
2013-05-17 02:30:36 PM

squibbits: NEWS FLASH: RETAILERS ARE IN IT FOR THE MONEY.


Want to know how I know you didn't RTFA?
 
2013-05-17 02:32:36 PM

gja: Funny How?.........


Funny like praying to George Carlin.

// not obscure in the least
 
2013-05-17 02:45:44 PM

nw_inferno: orclover: GT has .22LR AMMO! 1 box of any ammo per person max.  .22lr ammo in 500 round box (brick) selling for...........$40 bucks.  Same price as the auction scalpers online.   Thats maybe 2 days of plinking.  Hooooleeeeeeshiat.


Im done, i'm farking done, farkit, I quit.  My kids too small to be doing skeet shooting with an 870 home defense shotgun and target shooting juts turned into a rich mans sport.  Ironically black powder is still affordable so we could go blow up trashcans if I didn't mind committing felony's and teaching him how to be an anarchist.

Hmmm leads still cheap.  Black powder is still cheap.   Anybody got a musket or old blackpowder sixshooter they wanna sell cheap?  No DL needed since its archaic.  EIP.

/TAO!
[assets.diylol.com image 510x340]

Black powder is lots of fun. If you want a decent revolver, I recommend a Remington 1858 replica (don't get the super cheap ones with a brass frame; brass trigger guard is fine though). They can be had for around $150 and since they are a reproduction of an archaic design, aren't considered firearms for most legal purposes. That means no FFL transfers and the like. I picked up a used one in slightly beat-up condition on a gun auction site a couple years ago for $125, shipped straight to my door. It looks like they are still available in this price range  http://www.gunauction.com/buy/12089414/black-powder/1858-remington-bl a ck-powder-revolver

I would recommend not shooting real black powder (although I'm sure dittybopper will protest loudly). It's highly corrosive and cruds up the works very fast. I use Hodgdon triple seven black powder substitute (FFF granulation for pistols). It's much cleaner. Price wise, expect to pay around $25 for a pounds of powder (which will last you hundreds of shots) and maybe $15 for 100 bullets/balls (unless you want to get into making them yourself). So for $200 or so, you get the gun and enough supplies for several hundred shots.
It's great fun to shoot. I've taught se ...


Thanks for the info, figured the kits were always for the matchlocks.  More interested in a six shooter.  Although the rumble of a flintlock does have a certain appeal.
 
2013-05-17 02:47:20 PM

gunrunner: LadySusan:
If a rational "well-regulated" gun control issue is on my ballot I'll probably vote for it but I won't get my panties in a wad about the issue
yes..please more of this...someone who doesnt agree with the issue, and doesnt debase the opposition. It is pretty sad how quickly both sides resort to personal attacks based on limited information.

On the topic of hoarding....for as long as I have had guns, I've always bought ammunition in bulk.  I buy oil for my car in bulk. I buy mustard in bulk.  When an item has a long shelf life and it is to be known to be consumed at some point in time, it is good economic practice to buy the item in larger quantities.  So am I a mustard/oil/ammo hoarder?   In the wintertime I buy extra can goods so that if we get a big snow, I dont have to go to the store.  I dont understand why people have such issues with purchasing extra of what you use a lot of.


You might have quoted the wrong person. Buy as much of whatever you want, including ammo and guns. Fill your house, car, second house, second car, and storage unit. Buy so much that you create a black hole in your neighborhood with the mass. Knock yourself out with guns and ammo. Walk around covered in gun oil and black gunge. Enjoy.
 
2013-05-17 02:57:07 PM
ZOMG! What in the world will the gov't do against you and your AR-15?

hellpapers.com
 
2013-05-17 03:00:45 PM

LadySusan: gunrunner: LadySusan:

You might have quoted the wrong person. Buy as much of whatever you want, including ammo and guns. Fill your house, car, second house, second car, and storage unit. Buy so much that you create a black hole in your neighborhood with the mass. Knock yourself out with guns and ammo. Walk around covered in gun oil and black gunge. Enjoy.



sorry..the first quote was you, the second part was just a random musing
 
2013-05-17 03:03:29 PM
Read the article and shouldn't this be an angry Economics theory thread vs an angry gun thread?
 
2013-05-17 03:06:00 PM

gunrunner


On the topic of hoarding....for as long as I have had guns, I've always bought ammunition in bulk. I buy oil for my car in bulk. I buy mustard in bulk. When an item has a long shelf life and it is to be known to be consumed at some point in time, it is good economic practice to buy the item in larger quantities. So am I a mustard/oil/ammo hoarder? In the wintertime I buy extra can goods so that if we get a big snow, I dont have to go to the store. I dont understand why people have such issues with purchasing extra of what you use a lot of.


That's basically how I see it as well. I'm not going to post the results of my own inventory because it would probably look like zombie-prepper nonsense, but I always shop around for the brand and type of ammo I want*, and when it's available at a good price I stock up.

* Oddly enough, that precludes a lot of ammo that is packaged in bulk, especially the loose-pack lead .22LR.
 
2013-05-17 03:08:25 PM
lol at fearful idiots driven by reptile brain regions
 
2013-05-17 03:09:36 PM
HoustonNick


I hope you still feel that way when your local Police Dept runs out of ammo.
That's the first criminal gang I'd like to see disarmed.
 
2013-05-17 03:15:33 PM

OnlyM3: HoustonNick


I hope you still feel that way when your local Police Dept runs out of ammo. That's the first criminal gang I'd like to see disarmed.


then you better have the resources to keep the other gangs in check
 
2013-05-17 03:18:04 PM
I find it a curious exercise to watch the anti-gun folk still castigating the rest of us about how silly and outdated a concept like the 2nd Amendment is when gun owners rightfully point out that it exists to allow the people the ability to stand up to a government that overreaches it's bounds...at a time when the government is secretly collecting communication info on an organ of the press and using the IRS to quash political speech that the current administration disagrees with.

ALL governments eventually become despotic if left to exist long enough.  History is pretty clear on this.  The governments that aren't conquered from without eventually rot from within.  There are no historical exceptions to this.  As good as our form of government is, it WILL one day turn on us.  The only real issue is how fast and how much the population is willing to accept before they act.

It's not like all those countries that hosted the Arab Spring are somehow susceptible to this but the United States is magically immune.  I can happen here and has happened here twice in even our limited history.
 
2013-05-17 03:18:42 PM

orclover: nw_inferno: orclover: GT has .22LR AMMO! 1 box of any ammo per person max.  .22lr ammo in 500 round box (brick) selling for...........$40 bucks.  Same price as the auction scalpers online.   Thats maybe 2 days of plinking.  Hooooleeeeeeshiat.


Im done, i'm farking done, farkit, I quit.  My kids too small to be doing skeet shooting with an 870 home defense shotgun and target shooting juts turned into a rich mans sport.  Ironically black powder is still affordable so we could go blow up trashcans if I didn't mind committing felony's and teaching him how to be an anarchist.

Hmmm leads still cheap.  Black powder is still cheap.   Anybody got a musket or old blackpowder sixshooter they wanna sell cheap?  No DL needed since its archaic.  EIP.

/TAO!
[assets.diylol.com image 510x340]

Black powder is lots of fun. If you want a decent revolver, I recommend a Remington 1858 replica (don't get the super cheap ones with a brass frame; brass trigger guard is fine though). They can be had for around $150 and since they are a reproduction of an archaic design, aren't considered firearms for most legal purposes. That means no FFL transfers and the like. I picked up a used one in slightly beat-up condition on a gun auction site a couple years ago for $125, shipped straight to my door. It looks like they are still available in this price range  http://www.gunauction.com/buy/12089414/black-powder/1858-remington-bl a ck-powder-revolver

I would recommend not shooting real black powder (although I'm sure dittybopper will protest loudly). It's highly corrosive and cruds up the works very fast. I use Hodgdon triple seven black powder substitute (FFF granulation for pistols). It's much cleaner. Price wise, expect to pay around $25 for a pounds of powder (which will last you hundreds of shots) and maybe $15 for 100 bullets/balls (unless you want to get into making them yourself). So for $200 or so, you get the gun and enough supplies for several hundred shots.
It's great fun to shoot. I' ...


The rifle kit I built was a percussion lock (.50 caliber Hawkins) but you're right, you can get flint and match ones too. The revolvers are percussion.
I forgot to mention that I prefer the Remington revolvers to the more famous Colts. The Remington design has a much stronger frame, is easier to disassemble for cleaning, and is usually cheaper than a comparable Colt. You can actually but replacement cylinders that are chambered for .45 long colt cartridges (but installing it in your pistol constitutes assembling a modern firearm... yadda yadda legal stuff). It usually takes about 2 minutes to reload a once you get the hang of it (all 6 shots, or 5 if you're gonna carry it in a holster).
Have fun.
 
2013-05-17 03:19:51 PM

nw_inferno: I would recommend not shooting real black powder (although I'm sure dittybopper will protest loudly). It's highly corrosive and cruds up the works very fast. I use Hodgdon triple seven black powder substitute (FFF granulation for pistols). It's much cleaner. Price wise, expect to pay around $25 for a pounds of powder (which will last you hundreds of shots) and maybe $15 for 100 bullets/balls (unless you want to get into making them yourself). So for $200 or so, you get the gun and enough supplies for several hundred shots.


Actually, I second the recommendation for TripleSeven in revolvers.  It shoots much cleaner, and it's actually measurably more powerful than BP.

I shoot for-real, honest-to-God black powder because I have to, my gun being a flintlock.  Flintlocks don't work well with BP substitutes.  Percussion guns can use them, though.

Here is a little tip to get the most out of a cap and ball revolver in good shape.  *DON'T* do this with a brass framed, or a Colt-style, revolver.

For a .44 caliber gun, you can get Pyrodex pellets.  These you can carefully glue to the base of a 200 grain slug using Duco cement.  You then dribble a little bit of TripleSeven into the hole through the middle of the pellet in order to fill it, then cover it up with a little bit of toilet paper and glue to hold it in.  In essence, you're making caseless ammo, just with a separate primer (the percussion cap).

Here are the velocities/energy from a magazine article on the subject a few years ago:

Bullet             Charge                              Velocity             Energy
200gr             32g 3F Black Powder         821 fps            299 ft/lbs
200gr             32g TripleSeven             1,015 fps            450 ft/lbs
200gr             Pyrodex Pellet/3F T7      1,057 fps            496 ft/lbs

The first two are with loose powder, and the third is with 30 grain Pyrodex pellets glued to the base of the bullet with T7 dribbled into the hole and covered with a single layer of toilet paper to hold it in.

Like I said, *DON'T* do it in a brass framed revolver, and don't do it with a revolver that doesn't have a solid frame.
 
2013-05-17 03:20:56 PM

Anayalator: ZOMG! What in the world will the gov't do against you and your AR-15?

[hellpapers.com image 710x399]


Wait:  I thought tanks and jets "weren't particularly useful against an insurgency"?  Or does that just apply to *FOREIGN* insurgencies?
 
2013-05-17 03:24:25 PM

orclover: Although the rumble of a flintlock does have a certain appeal.


You know, when I was figuring out what kind of a gun I wanted my father to build for me, I thought about it, and went with a flintlock.  He recommended a percussion gun, but I'm glad I went flint.  There is a certain romance attached to shooting a flinch-lock that just isn't there with a persuction gun.

But that's just the road I've taken.  You don't have to follow it if  you don't want to.
 
2013-05-17 03:25:26 PM

Lucky LaRue: HoustonNick: Don't forget that DHS purchased 1.6 Billion rounds.  Regardless of whether those purchases were or were not justified, the purchases did reduce the available ammunition supply.

I hope it was for the purpose of causing scarcity - that would be the best use of my tax dollars EVAR.


It's only a temporary shortage.  They'll manufacture more.  And we just gave the gun makers a shiat load of taxpayer money with which to lobby, buy votes, and bribe politicians.
 
2013-05-17 03:29:21 PM

nw_inferno: The rifle kit I built was a percussion lock (.50 caliber Hawkins) but you're right, you can get flint and match ones too. The revolvers are percussion.
I forgot to mention that I prefer the Remington revolvers to the more famous Colts. The Remington design has a much stronger frame, is easier to disassemble for cleaning, and is usually cheaper than a comparable Colt. You can actually but replacement cylinders that are chambered for .45 long colt cartridges (but installing it in your pistol constitutes assembling a modern firearm... yadda yadda legal stuff). It usually takes about 2 minutes to reload a once you get the hang of it (all 6 shots, or 5 if you're gonna carry it in a holster).
Have fun.


One other advantage of the Remington style guns you didn't explicitly mention:  You can have spare loaded cylinders, meaning you can pop a fired cylinder out of the gun and pop in a pre-loaded cylinder almost as fast as you can change the magazines on a semi-auto (well, not *QUITE* that fast, but damn near).  Just drop the loading lever, pull the cylinder pin forward, rotate the old cylinder out, rotate in the new, push the cylinder pin back in, and bring the loading lever back up.
 
2013-05-17 03:32:04 PM

DraconianTotalitarian: lol at fearful idiots driven by reptile brain regions


Don't be too harsh on them.  People who are fearful of guns mainly just don't understand how they work, what they can do, and what they *CAN'T* do.  Their fear of inert tools is due to ignorance, which isn't something we should make fun of, no matter how fun or easy it is.
 
2013-05-17 03:34:41 PM
I almost went out a few months before the election and bought up a crap-load of ammo. I was reasonably confident that Obama would win, and I was sure that if he did the crazies would go bonkers again and I could sell it to them for double what I paid for it. I just wasn't quite sure enough on the election. Now I wish I had. I guarantee that if I had 100 bricks of .22 ammo I could get rid of them in under a week for way more than they are worth. Oh well, another missed opportunity.
 
2013-05-17 03:38:19 PM

Dr Dreidel: JustGetItRight: Dr Dreidel: dittybopper: There is a fairly large subset of gun owners who just *LOVE* to "knife perceived traitors in the back", so a gun store that relies on repeat customers has to tread lightly for fear of being perceived as a traitor by a large number of their customers.

So you're admitting that gun owners, as a group, are reactionary nutbars?

So you're saying a lib that doesn't shop at Wal-Mart because they don't like the company's policies towards organized labor and international sweatshops are reactionary nutbars?

Based on a single data point - OMG they don't have the same opinion of guns that I do! - like the cited Eastern States Outdoor Show, where gun owners were pissed that the show wouldn't carry assault rifles even though they WOULD carry the same model Sig .40 they'd buy at Earl's Gun Show and Feed Lot the following week.

Rather than WalMart, who gets almost all of their products from sweatshop labor.

Not liking someone's politics is fine - as American as apfelstrudel - but taking it to the level the gun people dittybopper mentioned did takes you into "nutbar" territory. It can be both.

// a nuanced argument, to be sure
// and FTR, people that boycott WalMart are indeed "reactionaries"


I fail to see it as nutbar.  The business took a position the majority of the customer base found unacceptable so they took their business elsewhere.

The only difference between union/Wal-mart, LGBT/Chic-fil-a, or any other hot button issue where a  segment of the customer base gets enraged is that these customers were effective.  They closed down the business that offended them.  Ruger and Earl's feed and seed still got their money next week, the customers still got their weapons and ammo, and Eastern States Outdoor Show learned that pissing on your #1 demographic is really bad for business.
 
2013-05-17 03:40:31 PM
I haven't really had a hard time finding 9x18 makarov rounds, so meh./Hungarian PA-63. First and only pistol. Fits my hand well, shoots like a dream.
 
2013-05-17 03:46:49 PM

dittybopper: Anayalator: ZOMG! What in the world will the gov't do against you and your AR-15?

[hellpapers.com image 710x399]

Wait:  I thought tanks and jets "weren't particularly useful against an insurgency"?  Or does that just apply to *FOREIGN* insurgencies?


No, remember? The Obamaniac Al Qaedamoctrat libs are creating a police state to take your guns and send you to allah.
 
2013-05-17 03:50:57 PM

dittybopper: DraconianTotalitarian: lol at fearful idiots driven by reptile brain regions

Don't be too harsh on them.  People who are fearful of guns mainly just don't understand how they work, what they can do, and what they *CAN'T* do.  Their fear of inert tools is due to ignorance, which isn't something we should make fun of, no matter how fun or easy it is.


That's one of the reason's I love taking people who've never handled a weapon out to the firing range. I actually have plans to take a lovely young lady to the range later this month. Have never seen someone who has learned how to safely operate a gun cower in fear of them (a gun by itself--in the hands of a criminal, I have no doubt it would rightfully scare them).

Even my ex-fiance, who was pretty rabidly anti-gun when I met her, admitted to me that shooting was a lot of fun and she understood a bit better why people care so much about them after I put a .22 in her hands at the range. She still didn't want to own a firearm herself, but no longer complained that I did.
 
2013-05-17 03:51:47 PM

Loaded Six String: I haven't really had a hard time finding 9x18 makarov rounds, so meh./Hungarian PA-63. First and only pistol. Fits my hand well, shoots like a dream.


From the pictures I've seen of 'em, they're very nice...kind of like a more-ergonomic Walther PPK.  But rarer calibers like that can be annoying, once supplies dry up.
 
2013-05-17 03:59:34 PM
Anayalator:No, remember? The Obamaniac Al Qaedamoctrat libs are creating a police state to take your guns and send you to allah.

i4.ytimg.com
 
2013-05-17 04:04:56 PM

dittybopper: nw_inferno: The rifle kit I built was a percussion lock (.50 caliber Hawkins) but you're right, you can get flint and match ones too. The revolvers are percussion.
I forgot to mention that I prefer the Remington revolvers to the more famous Colts. The Remington design has a much stronger frame, is easier to disassemble for cleaning, and is usually cheaper than a comparable Colt. You can actually but replacement cylinders that are chambered for .45 long colt cartridges (but installing it in your pistol constitutes assembling a modern firearm... yadda yadda legal stuff). It usually takes about 2 minutes to reload a once you get the hang of it (all 6 shots, or 5 if you're gonna carry it in a holster).
Have fun.

One other advantage of the Remington style guns you didn't explicitly mention:  You can have spare loaded cylinders, meaning you can pop a fired cylinder out of the gun and pop in a pre-loaded cylinder almost as fast as you can change the magazines on a semi-auto (well, not *QUITE* that fast, but damn near).  Just drop the loading lever, pull the cylinder pin forward, rotate the old cylinder out, rotate in the new, push the cylinder pin back in, and bring the loading lever back up.


I've found that in practice, the cylinder pin tends to stick at the slightest whim and the cylinders like to jam if you don't pull them out just right. Plus, carrying around a fully loaded and capped cylinder seems like an accident waiting to happen (at best, the caps tend to fall off if you look at them wrong). I have heard of people using a bit of wax to seal the caps in place (i usually just pinch them a little out of round so they stick on the nipple better). I only have 1 cylinder but I tend to pull it out to clean and fill with powder and wad then throw back in the gun to ram in the ball.

Thanks for the custom load info, that's a pretty cool idea. What sort of bullet do you use with that setup?
 
2013-05-17 04:12:44 PM

HoustonNick: vartian: HoustonNick: But they have purchased some of that 1.6 and it is a reduction of the available supply.  Its pure match:

In advance, with plenty of notice. So you are saying bullet manufactures are incompetent.

No, they were caught off guard by the increased demand caused by the gun ban efforts of Obama, Biden, Feinstein, Bloomber, et al, plus the increased chance of success as a result of the horror at Sandy Hook.  Admittedly, gun owners increased their ammo (and gun) purchases as a result, and the market was not prepared for either.

As indicated in one of my earlier posts - the purchases were by both Gov't and Private Citizens - and when all purchases increased, it reduced available supply.

FYI, its not like gun owners made up what Obama, Biden, Feinstein, Bloomberg, et al were doing, they were in fact trying to get new gun ban legislation passed.


The NRA, and some Republicans, HAVE been flat-out lying about guns and gun-related issues.
 
2013-05-17 04:13:59 PM

nw_inferno: I've found that in practice, the cylinder pin tends to stick at the slightest whim and the cylinders like to jam if you don't pull them out just right. Plus, carrying around a fully loaded and capped cylinder seems like an accident waiting to happen (at best, the caps tend to fall off if you look at them wrong). I have heard of people using a bit of wax to seal the caps in place (i usually just pinch them a little out of round so they stick on the nipple better). I only have 1 cylinder but I tend to pull it out to clean and fill with powder and wad then throw back in the gun to ram in the ball.

Thanks for the custom load info, that's a pretty cool idea. What sort of bullet do you use with that setup?


I don't.  It's information that's drifted through my transom.  The article mentions Lee 200 grain REAL bullets, the mold for which you can get from Midway.

I will say, however, that I know someone who *HAS* fired those loads, and they do indeed work as advertised.
 
2013-05-17 04:19:02 PM

orclover: nw_inferno: orclover: GT has .22LR AMMO! 1 box of any ammo per person max.  .22lr ammo in 500 round box (brick) selling for...........$40 bucks.  Same price as the auction scalpers online.   Thats maybe 2 days of plinking.  Hooooleeeeeeshiat.


Im done, i'm farking done, farkit, I quit.  My kids too small to be doing skeet shooting with an 870 home defense shotgun and target shooting juts turned into a rich mans sport.  Ironically black powder is still affordable so we could go blow up trashcans if I didn't mind committing felony's and teaching him how to be an anarchist.

Hmmm leads still cheap.  Black powder is still cheap.   Anybody got a musket or old blackpowder sixshooter they wanna sell cheap?  No DL needed since its archaic.  EIP.

/TAO!
[assets.diylol.com image 510x340]

Black powder is lots of fun. If you want a decent revolver, I recommend a Remington 1858 replica (don't get the super cheap ones with a brass frame; brass trigger guard is fine though). They can be had for around $150 and since they are a reproduction of an archaic design, aren't considered firearms for most legal purposes. That means no FFL transfers and the like. I picked up a used one in slightly beat-up condition on a gun auction site a couple years ago for $125, shipped straight to my door. It looks like they are still available in this price range  http://www.gunauction.com/buy/12089414/black-powder/1858-remington-bl a ck-powder-revolver

I would recommend not shooting real black powder (although I'm sure dittybopper will protest loudly). It's highly corrosive and cruds up the works very fast. I use Hodgdon triple seven black powder substitute (FFF granulation for pistols). It's much cleaner. Price wise, expect to pay around $25 for a pounds of powder (which will last you hundreds of shots) and maybe $15 for 100 bullets/balls (unless you want to get into making them yourself). So for $200 or so, you get the gun and enough supplies for several hundred shots.
It's great fun to shoot. I' ...


In New York you can own black powder handguns without a permit as they aren't considered firearms, but if you have black powder and lead they "magically" turn into firearms. So watch out, or the ATF will rape your dog.
 
2013-05-17 04:22:09 PM

nw_inferno: I've found that in practice, the cylinder pin tends to stick at the slightest whim and the cylinders like to jam if you don't pull them out just right.


Grease the pin really, really good.  Then grease it a bit more.  Once you've done that, add a bit of grease to it.

Pulling out the cylinder and popping one in quickly is just a matter of muscle memory.  You've got to pop it in and rotate it along it's axis at the same time.
 
2013-05-17 04:22:27 PM

part of the problem: Ammo IS getting more expensive, but this has a lot more to do with materials prices than anything else.

And leave it to the Liberals at NPR to find the idea of fairness inexplicable. This story told me far more about the author than about ammunition.


And leave it to a 'conservative' to miss the part of the article where NPR explained it, using a Nobel researcher no less.

/turn off the Fox, it's rotting your mind
 
2013-05-17 04:24:33 PM

Dr. Goldshnoz: its funny I always see people get so zealous about gun owners and gun lobby. if you spent half as much time realizing the damage caused by legal gun owners is statistically tiny, and the 'disproportionate' lobby power is exactly the same as with every other group in the history of lobbying, you might be able to apply all your 15 minutes of faux rage at issues that actually seriously affect this country and the world like, oh, I don't know; the disproportionate power of the bank lobby, or the petroleum lobby, or the christian lobby, or the drug war lobby, or the anti woman's rights lobby, or the warmongers lobby, or any of dozens of other things advocated with a full intention of farking over everyone in the country and world for a quick buck.

where's your bleeding heart for people farked by banks?

where's your bleeding heart for people sick from fossil fuel poisons?

you harp on gun owners because its easy and you are lazy in your theatre at giving a shiat.


Don't you know that logic and reason have no place in a Fark Gun Thread?

// jib, newsletter, subscribe, etc.
 
2013-05-17 04:33:30 PM

catusr: I have 40 9mm bullets in my ammo box.  For me, that is a five year supply.  I shoot off a single magazine (8 bullets) once a year.  I think that's good enough to stay familiar with the pistol.  I sure hope this ammo shortage is all over with by 2018, because I'll be wanting to buy a box of ammo by then.


No, it is not. Incidentally..  So.. you're going to drive to the range, pay the range fee, set up your target, shoot 8 rounds, then pack up and go home? Once a year?

As for the ammo shortage see: a) price of lead b) war purchasing c) unprecedented demand.
 
2013-05-17 04:33:32 PM

dittybopper: nw_inferno: I've found that in practice, the cylinder pin tends to stick at the slightest whim and the cylinders like to jam if you don't pull them out just right.

Grease the pin really, really good.  Then grease it a bit more.  Once you've done that, add a bit of grease to it.

Pulling out the cylinder and popping one in quickly is just a matter of muscle memory.  You've got to pop it in and rotate it along it's axis at the same time.


I'll have to pick one of those molds up. I've been meaning to try casting my own bullets; the prepackaged ones (even the lead balls) are stupidly expensive for what they are. Most of the forums seem to think it shoots better with balls as opposed to bullets though.
You're right about popping the cylinder in and out but I swear, that damn pin... Stripped the pistol down and cleaned it (actually pulled the pin all the way out). Greased the pin and put it back in (without the cylinder). Slid it back and forth (like you would when removing the cylinder) and it jammed the third time. I've seen some people machine grooves into the pin with a dremel or something but that's seems like too much trouble, plus you'd have to reblue.
 
2013-05-17 04:37:44 PM

stevetherobot: snocone: dittybopper: Frank N Stein: An ammo shortage for a police department wouldn't cause the officers to not carry a sidearm. He'd still have whatever he carried before, and with just as many rounds in the magazine or wheel. What it would do is reduce range and training time. So when it comes time for Officer Friendly to empty is magazine at a suspect, he'd be an even worse aim and endanger even more so any bystanders.

I don't know how you cant see that.

There are ways to maintain basic marksmanship proficiency fairly cheaply.  Nothing beats actual range time, but the police departments in general require so little range time I can't see it being a major issue.

It is an issue with the LAPD. Giving the village idiot a gun w/o adequate training and continuing proficiency practice needs to be criminalized.
A gun is a pinpoint weapon. Spraying rounds in the general direction of an assumed target is the sign of utter incompetency.

Ever heard of suppressing fire?


I sure hope someone has said this by now, but in {some large percentage} of civilian-involved gunfights (and, yes, Virginia, cops are civilians too), suppressing fire is not a valid tactic.
 
2013-05-17 04:40:23 PM

nw_inferno: I've seen some people machine grooves into the pin with a dremel or something but that's seems like too much trouble, plus you'd have to reblue.


I too have seen that done, and it does make a difference.
 
2013-05-17 04:45:33 PM

Anayalator: ZOMG! What in the world will the gov't do against you and your AR-15?

[hellpapers.com image 710x399]


After about three months, nothing, once farmers and truckers stop delivering food and gas to Army bases.

/there's more than one way to skin a tank
 
2013-05-17 04:46:17 PM

Sgt.Zim: stevetherobot: snocone: dittybopper: Frank N Stein: An ammo shortage for a police department wouldn't cause the officers to not carry a sidearm. He'd still have whatever he carried before, and with just as many rounds in the magazine or wheel. What it would do is reduce range and training time. So when it comes time for Officer Friendly to empty is magazine at a suspect, he'd be an even worse aim and endanger even more so any bystanders.

I don't know how you cant see that.

There are ways to maintain basic marksmanship proficiency fairly cheaply.  Nothing beats actual range time, but the police departments in general require so little range time I can't see it being a major issue.

It is an issue with the LAPD. Giving the village idiot a gun w/o adequate training and continuing proficiency practice needs to be criminalized.
A gun is a pinpoint weapon. Spraying rounds in the general direction of an assumed target is the sign of utter incompetency.

Ever heard of suppressing fire?

I sure hope someone has said this by now, but in {some large percentage} of civilian-involved gunfights (and, yes, Virginia, cops are civilians too), suppressing fire is not a valid tactic.


When someone is trying to kill you, it sure as hell is.

/Especially if you're in the NY or LA  PD.
/Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six, I suppose.
 
2013-05-17 04:47:10 PM
Depends on what you shoot and where you are - I was in Tucson and found all sorts of ammo over the course of a week, but I visited 5 guns shops every day for a week basically.

Here in CO, it's a lot harder to find - I hear about shipments but never find any at the big stores like wally world and sport authority - they get it and the hoarders/speculators beat me to it since I don't live nearby.

My local gun shops have been good to me though - they know what I'm looking for and tend to put aside some for me when they get a shipment - that's the only way I'd have .22 to shoot these days.

Can't find .30-30 either for some strange reason, but pretty much every other real hunting round out there can be had.
 
2013-05-17 04:54:35 PM

gunrunner: LadySusan: gunrunner: LadySusan:

You might have quoted the wrong person. Buy as much of whatever you want, including ammo and guns. Fill your house, car, second house, second car, and storage unit. Buy so much that you create a black hole in your neighborhood with the mass. Knock yourself out with guns and ammo. Walk around covered in gun oil and black gunge. Enjoy.


sorry..the first quote was you, the second part was just a random musing


okey doke. i see it now.
 
2013-05-17 04:56:37 PM
I'm all stocked up on ammo from the last gun show around here, but there's another one this weekend......A buddy of mine wanted to borrow a pellet gun for hunting rabbits for his kid.   anybody have any recommendations on what to look for?  I never had a BB or pellet gun when I was little, just the real boomsticks now that I'm a grownup.

What brands/ammunition/propulsion system should I look for?  I not only want to get one for my friend's kid, but one for me to discourage possums and raccoon from eating my grapes and loquats.  But no lead pellets as my dog is apt to snack on corpses in the yard.

Difficulty:  California, in a suburban neighborhood.

/Freeway noise should cover most noises, though.
 
2013-05-17 04:57:14 PM

dittybopper: orclover: dittybopper: Remington is expanding their ammo manufacturing at their plant in Arkansas, including the construction of a whole new building.

Yay! so I can jam up my guns even more!

No seriously they make the most crappy .22lr ammo I have ever seen in my life.

Personally, when I shot modern ammo, I preferred Federal Premium.  Oh, look, they're increasing capacity too:

WHY CAN'T YOU JUST MAKE MORE AMMUNITION?Our facilities operate 24-hours a day. We are continually making process improvements to increase our efficiency and investing in capital and personnel where we have sustained demand. We are bringing additional capacity online again this year.


Big match coming up next weekend. I plan to shoot around 400 rounds of .44/40 (black powder cartridges), 100 BP shotshells, ~75 .45 ACP and .45 Colt smokeless, another 50 smokeless shotshells, over three days...

Damn good thing I reload. Of course, primers and component bullets are nearly as scarce as loaded ammo right now.
 
2013-05-17 05:04:40 PM

Bonzo_1116: I'm all stocked up on ammo from the last gun show around here, but there's another one this weekend......A buddy of mine wanted to borrow a pellet gun for hunting rabbits for his kid.   anybody have any recommendations on what to look for?  I never had a BB or pellet gun when I was little, just the real boomsticks now that I'm a grownup.

What brands/ammunition/propulsion system should I look for?  I not only want to get one for my friend's kid, but one for me to discourage possums and raccoon from eating my grapes and loquats.  But no lead pellets as my dog is apt to snack on corpses in the yard.

Difficulty:  California, in a suburban neighborhood.

/Freeway noise should cover most noises, though.


Spring piston powerplant (as long as the kid is strong enough to repeatedly cock the mainspring) so he never needs to worry about buying CO2 or high pressure air. A .22 caliber pellet gun will do a much better job for small game hunting than a .177. There is an excellent airgun blog written by Tom Gaylord (would link, but it's affiliated with a commercial airgun shop) that has a ton of helpful info. He also writes an airguns column for Shotgun News. I'm a big fan of RWS (Diana) airguns, but they tend to be pricy as they're German made. The newer Benjamin Sheridan and Crossman precharged pneumatics are supposed to be fantastic, but I've not handled one myself.
 
2013-05-17 05:11:49 PM
new_york_monty:
Spring piston powerplant (as long as the kid is strong enough to repeatedly cock the mainspring) so he never needs to worry about buying CO2 or high pressure air. A .22 caliber pellet gun will do a much better job for small game hunting than a .177. There is an excellent airgun blog written by Tom Gaylord (would link, but it's affiliated with a commercial airgun shop) that has a ton of helpful info. He also writes an airguns column for Shotgun News. I'm a big fan of RWS (Diana) airguns, but they tend to be pricy as they're German made. The newer Benjamin Sheridan and Crossman precharged pneumatics are supposed to be fantastic, but I've not handled one myself.

ooooOOOoooo.  They're big hippies, so they'll love the DIY of that.

Hippies that want kill their meat, the best kind of hippies.  Do they make that kind of thing in rifle style?

/and so green, no CO2 cartridges.  LOL
//I like the idea because I'm cheap, and will take pumping for free any day over paying for CO2 cartridges.
 
2013-05-17 05:24:00 PM

dittybopper: nw_inferno: I've seen some people machine grooves into the pin with a dremel or something but that's seems like too much trouble, plus you'd have to reblue.

I too have seen that done, and it does make a difference.


After that, put a little *more* grease on the pin...

Something I do during matches (again, cartridges, but it's a throwback to the cap 'n ball days) is smear a wad of grease over each of the chamber mouths (if you're using real black; no need with the subs). The added lube helps keep the fouling soft, plus it *might* help prevent chain-fires.
 
2013-05-17 05:57:37 PM
As someone who has stocked up on ammunition in the past 5 months (but not outrageous, prepper amounts) I can give you my simple take on things.

There are more than a few of us out here that know our economy is screwed because we will eventually run out of other people's money to spend.  When that time comes, the food stamps and other welfare checks are going to stop coming to the people who have been too lazy or otherwise unable to take care of themselves.  "Zombie Apocalypse" is nothing more than a metaphor that translates into millions of Americans wandering around looking for food.  When the looting and pillaging starts to become a problem I plan on being able to defend against others who try to steal from me, nothing more than that.
 
2013-05-17 05:59:40 PM
Satanic_Hamster:
You know, this is one of the reasons why I haven't gotten a concealed carry permit in Texas yet (moved down here two years ago).

Texas has two levels of concealed carry permit; small cal and "everything."  If you qualify for everything you can carry, well, anything.  The only "large" pistol I own is a 9mm and due to idiots it's not worth going to the range to get ready to take a concealed carry class/test.


The only thing you have right is that there are two kinds of CHL permits here, but everything else you said is complete nonsense.

You can qualify with a revolver, and you will only be licensed to carry a revolver.
You can qualify with a semi-auto, and you will be licensed to carry any pistol.
Either way, you can't qualify with anything less than a .32.
 
2013-05-17 06:04:42 PM

BubbaWilkins: The only thing you have right is that there are two kinds of CHL permits here, but everything else you said is complete nonsense.

You can qualify with a revolver, and you will only be licensed to carry a revolver.
You can qualify with a semi-auto, and you will be licensed to carry any pistol.
Either way, you can't qualify with anything less than a .32.


And yet, all the Texas gun nuts I know have explained it otherwise.

Like I said, I haven't bothered / cared enough yet to sign up for the classes yet myself.
 
2013-05-17 06:10:06 PM

mrmopar5287: As someone who has stocked up on ammunition in the past 5 months (but not outrageous, prepper amounts) I can give you my simple take on things.

There are more than a few of us out here that know our economy is screwed because we will eventually run out of other people's money to spend.  When that time comes, the food stamps and other welfare checks are going to stop coming to the people who have been too lazy or otherwise unable to take care of themselves.  "Zombie Apocalypse" is nothing more than a metaphor that translates into millions of Americans wandering around looking for food.  When the looting and pillaging starts to become a problem I plan on being able to defend against others who try to steal from me, nothing more than that.


If it gets to that point you need to watch your cherry ass for water, not food.  Although, given the location listed in your profile it might not be an issue if you have a rain barrel.

Out here in the desert southwest, the water(not just "clean" water, but any water at all) will run out WAY before the canned goods.


but of course if that kind of thing occurs, we're all so farked none of the hoarding matters.  Aunty Entity will be coming for us all, and She won't be giving a Fair Deal, no matter how many guns you've got.


/Beyond Thunderdome was a documentary.
 
2013-05-17 06:13:07 PM
There's an economic theory that says price gouging prevents hoarding.

Might be some truth to that.
 
2013-05-17 06:19:02 PM

JungleBoogie: There's an economic theory that says price gouging prevents hoarding.

Might be some truth to that.


makes sense, unless one person/entity has the bulk of the wealth.
 
2013-05-17 07:09:12 PM

orclover: Haven't seen ammo on the shelves (other than shotgun shells) in months at sport stores I frequent.  Been shooting every other week and I am down to a few hundred rounds of .22lr.  The range I frequent was selling reloads of .22 for $1 per 10 shells.  And they smirked a bit when they told me, they are really really getting off on this.  Right now if you can meet the delivery truck at the store you can make about $40 on average off a $15 box of shells, or more by reselling it on gunbroker or one of the other sites.  It's pretty farking crazy.  The ammo manufacturers are too farking scared of what laws may or may not be passed to ramp up production to meet demand.  Eventually they will and this will pass.  Until then, target shooting has gotten farking expensive.


Reloads of .22 LR? How does that work? The primer is built into the manufacturing process with rimfire rounds; you can't reload them. That's why it's such a biatch trying to find .41 short rimfire for old derringers. Some manufacturer will run off a bunch every 10-20 years, and that's all the supply there's ever going to be.
 
2013-05-17 07:19:11 PM

Sgt.Zim: Damn good thing I reload. Of course, primers and component bullets are nearly as scarce as loaded ammo right now.


You can reload primers with strike anywhere matches.
 
2013-05-17 07:23:37 PM
I just ran the numbers last night and I'm shooting 12-15,000 rounds of live fire a year in various calibers, but mostly .22.

If CCI SV and Eley Sport continue to be made of unobtanium, this could get to be a problem. I'm OK on match ammo, but training ammo goes more quickly. At least CMP is saying they might be shipping Aguila by October.

Surplus Ammo had CCI SV in stock the other day - $45 for a box of 100. Nuts.
 
2013-05-17 07:29:03 PM

Sgt.Zim: dittybopper: nw_inferno: I've seen some people machine grooves into the pin with a dremel or something but that's seems like too much trouble, plus you'd have to reblue.

I too have seen that done, and it does make a difference.

After that, put a little *more* grease on the pin...

Something I do during matches (again, cartridges, but it's a throwback to the cap 'n ball days) is smear a wad of grease over each of the chamber mouths (if you're using real black; no need with the subs). The added lube helps keep the fouling soft, plus it *might* help prevent chain-fires.


Yep.

Actually, full size bullets are what actually prevents chain-fires.  What the lube over the bullets does is keep the fouling soft.
 
2013-05-17 07:32:05 PM

dittybopper: what happened to Jim Zumbo when he called AR-15's "terrorist rifles",


I looked that up.  I can understand why people are pissed at him for his comment.  I've got a few thoughts on it.
1. "AR and AK rifles have a rapidly growing following among hunters" - Historically military and hunting firearms have developed in parallel, with hunting following the military after rifling became common.  Consider that hunters are more likely to be military and ex-military.  They're familiar with the AR line.  The AK line is notoriously reliable and CHEAP.  The AR lines are more expensive, but still relatively easy for individuals to clean, maintain, modify, and equip(scopes and such).
2.  "They tell me that some companies are producing assault rifles that are "tackdrivers." - Is he so divorced from gun culture that he doesn't recognize that a rifle that is a 'tackdriver' is one that excels at accuracy and reliability?  The idea being that a professional that uses a tack driver isn't going to accept an unreliable or inaccurate device.
3. "Sorry, folks, in my humble opinion, these things have no place in hunting. " - My impression on this is pure elitist, and has no humility.
4. "I've always been comfortable with the statement that hunters don't use assault rifles." - AR != assault rifle, which is a select fire weapon.  Besides, leave it in semi and the average M-4 would be an excellent gopher gun.
5. I own multiple rifles.  My AR is the cheapest short of the .22 to fire, and if I wanted to it's cheaper to obtain a conversion kit than to buy another.  I can change the caliber simply by swapping the upper, change out optics with a couple hand screws in seconds, as opposed to half an hour with fine point screw drivers, hex wrenches, and such.  It's fun to fire.
 There is a fairly large subset of gun owners who just *LOVE* to "knife perceived traitors in the back", so a gun store that relies on repeat customers has to tread lightly for fear of being perceived as a traitor by a large number of their customers.  It's not like a gas station or a supermarket.

You have a good point here.  Shooters tend to talk to each other, and can take firearm stuff a lot more seriously than most manufacturers ever see.
 
2013-05-17 07:44:36 PM
Just remember, if a violent criminal rapes and murders a member of your family, because those opposed to a sensible death penalty have made it so hard and time consuming that it could take 20 years for the state to off the SOB, that you can, if you catch them in the act, or hopefully *before* they commit the act, send them to Hell as judge, jury and executioner.

Just because you have the God or natural-given, not government given, right to have a gun and use it to defend your person and the lives of your loved ones.

And you'll also be a good citizen if you do so, because you will prevent the rapist-murderer from doing it again, to some other innocent person or people.  And the cost of trying and putting such a monster in prison for 20 years can run to about $2 million, you are saving the taxpayers money as well.

Bravo, and be sure to at least double-tap the beast, as the rest of us don't want to pay for his medical care, either.  And save your guilt for having to put down rabid dogs, for they deserve more sympathy.
 
2013-05-17 08:03:02 PM

Firethorn: dittybopper: what happened to Jim Zumbo when he called AR-15's "terrorist rifles",

I looked that up.  I can understand why people are pissed at him for his comment.


I snipped your comments, which I agree with for the most part.

The problem is that Jim Zumbo typifies Gun Culture 1.0.  Old Guard.  NRA before the Cincinnati Revolt.  Gun control is fine, so long as it's largely limited to brown people, which is how GCA '68 got passed.  That sort of thing.  It can be summed up by the typical restrictions on a New York State pistol permit:  "For Hunting and Target Shooting Only".

Problem is, we're not in Gun Culture 1.0 anymore  The Old Guard is dying out, it just doesn't know it yet.  Gun Culture 2.0 embraces the self-defense and anti-tyranny aspects of gun ownership.  It welcomes people of all color, and yes, even every sexual orientation*.  Look up "Pink Pistols".  Gun Culture isn't embarrassed to say "Hey, fark you, *WE* didn't hurt anybody, so why are you punishing *US*?".   It's more than willing to draw a line in the sand and say "No further".

*Except furries, of course.  Gotta draw the line *SOMEWHERE*, and you don't want to be walking next to some dude in a fur suit when you're out hunting.
 
2013-05-17 08:05:15 PM

dittybopper: Sgt.Zim: dittybopper: nw_inferno: I've seen some people machine grooves into the pin with a dremel or something but that's seems like too much trouble, plus you'd have to reblue.

I too have seen that done, and it does make a difference.

After that, put a little *more* grease on the pin...

Something I do during matches (again, cartridges, but it's a throwback to the cap 'n ball days) is smear a wad of grease over each of the chamber mouths (if you're using real black; no need with the subs). The added lube helps keep the fouling soft, plus it *might* help prevent chain-fires.

Yep.

Actually, full size bullets are what actually prevents chain-fires.  What the lube over the bullets does is keep the fouling soft.


Yep. You and I know that. Didn't want to confuse the new guy or any old wives that happened to be following the thread, thus the *might*.

The amount of flat wrong information that floats around BP shooting is staggering. I think it's a deliberate FUD campaign to keep others from having too much fun.

That smokeless stuff is a passing fad.
 
2013-05-17 08:06:20 PM

russsssman: Trying to use a witty headline while denying what the DHS has clearly done, is ignorant at best. Buying up over 1.6 billion rounds of 'Hollow Point' bullets and calling it 'for practice and target shooting for our nations security' is only something people that are uneducated about firearms, would believe.


Here's some good derp.  Sourceless, but if it's the one I remember, it was the total of several OPTION contracts.  Here's the deal:  The DHS doesn't know how much ammo it's going to need, how much money it'll have, what calibers, etc...  So it puts out a contract that, from what I remember, were things like 'up to 250k rounds of .45ACP, in 100 round lots'.  When you set the maximum you always 'reach for the sky', worst/best case scenario.  You never actually buy that much.  Besides that, there was lots of boilerplate to help ensure that they get good ammunition, of course.  Add up the dozen or so potential handgun calibers, the half dozen rifle, and 3 shotgun calibers and you're at 'over 5 million rounds!!!'.  Don't forget that these are 5 year contracts.

Oh, and on training.  USAF qualification course is 286 rounds, completed quarterly for police types.  So nearly 1200 rounds per officer per year on qualification training alone.

You aren't even allowed to fire hollow points at the vast majority of practice ranges in this country.

Citation please.  ALL of the ranges I've been at allow hollowpoints.  I know there are a few that require lead-free/frangible ammunition because their backstop isn't 'all that', but outside of New Jersey I'm not aware of any that ban it.

You have to use full metal jacket. Hollow points expand up to cause more internal damage which if used at a range, you're just going to destroy the backstop of the firing range. Full metal jackets just go right through and the lead is later collected easily as opposed to fragments of a hollow point.

Hollowpoints don't fragment any worse than FMJ do.  .223 FMJ, is notorious for fragmenting.  If it's 'going through the backstop' then it's not a backSTOP!

Also, in the quantities that they purchase at, FMJ isn't really any cheaper and the saying goes 'practice with what you're going to shoot'.  It's also easier to keep your carry and practice ammunition the same.

Frank N Stein: (expanding bullets violate the hague convention)


Which we never signed...  We just follow it voluntarily, and exemptions are spreading.  On base military police, for example, load HP ammo today.  Hollow points are authorized for police duties, which the coast guard is doing.

LadySusan: I wish more effort would be made to attempt to reduce the number of gun suicides (and men's rights guys...here's an issue to take on...it impacts men more than women) and would also vote for funding and efforts to reduce this.


I'd rather have policies to reduce suicides and violence period.  I think that concentrating on the 'gun' part will limit effectiveness.
 
2013-05-17 08:17:25 PM

russsssman: Trying to use a witty headline while denying what the DHS has clearly done, is ignorant at best. Buying up over 1.6 billion rounds of 'Hollow Point' bullets and calling it 'for practice and target shooting for our nations security' is only something people that are uneducated about firearms, would believe. You aren't even allowed to fire hollow points at the vast majority of practice ranges in this country. You have to use full metal jacket. Hollow points expand up to cause more internal damage which if used at a range, you're just going to destroy the backstop of the firing range. Full metal jackets just go right through and the lead is later collected easily as opposed to fragments of a hollow point. With all that 1st grade Common Sense info said.. There is no reason for DHS to have purchased that many hollow points... Ever..


I agree with you that it's unconvincing that all those rounds are for practice, but I have never been to a range that doesn't allow hollow points, and it definitely is a good idea to practice firing at least 100 rounds of your chosen hollow points at a range before betting your life on them, the recoil and trajectory between fmj and hp is a bit different
 
2013-05-17 08:20:15 PM

Sgt.Zim: dittybopper: Sgt.Zim: dittybopper: nw_inferno: I've seen some people machine grooves into the pin with a dremel or something but that's seems like too much trouble, plus you'd have to reblue.

I too have seen that done, and it does make a difference.

After that, put a little *more* grease on the pin...

Something I do during matches (again, cartridges, but it's a throwback to the cap 'n ball days) is smear a wad of grease over each of the chamber mouths (if you're using real black; no need with the subs). The added lube helps keep the fouling soft, plus it *might* help prevent chain-fires.

Yep.

Actually, full size bullets are what actually prevents chain-fires.  What the lube over the bullets does is keep the fouling soft.

Yep. You and I know that. Didn't want to confuse the new guy or any old wives that happened to be following the thread, thus the *might*.

The amount of flat wrong information that floats around BP shooting is staggering. I think it's a deliberate FUD campaign to keep others from having too much fun.

That smokeless stuff is a passing fad.


some fat bearded happy old man let me shoot his black powder rifle two years ago at our local range, and I've wanted one ever since.

What's a good one for a neophyte lady with short arms?  Is there a "junior" model available?
 
2013-05-17 08:22:06 PM

Sgt.Zim: stevetherobot: snocone: dittybopper: Frank N Stein: An ammo shortage for a police department wouldn't cause the officers to not carry a sidearm. He'd still have whatever he carried before, and with just as many rounds in the magazine or wheel. What it would do is reduce range and training time. So when it comes time for Officer Friendly to empty is magazine at a suspect, he'd be an even worse aim and endanger even more so any bystanders.

I don't know how you cant see that.

There are ways to maintain basic marksmanship proficiency fairly cheaply.  Nothing beats actual range time, but the police departments in general require so little range time I can't see it being a major issue.

It is an issue with the LAPD. Giving the village idiot a gun w/o adequate training and continuing proficiency practice needs to be criminalized.
A gun is a pinpoint weapon. Spraying rounds in the general direction of an assumed target is the sign of utter incompetency.

Ever heard of suppressing fire?

I sure hope someone has said this by now, but in {some large percentage} of civilian-involved gunfights (and, yes, Virginia, cops are civilians too), suppressing fire is not a valid tactic.


Since when? What kind of poorly-informed statement is that?
When I'm in a fight for my life, every damn tactic short of deliberately injuring innocent people is on the table. If I need to, I will gladly put my 20 round magazine to good use, then put in a 30 rounder to keep going if that's what I or my family needs to get to safety. Suppressive fire isn't just for advancing on the enemy - it's also useful for retreating.
And as for cops, they use SF all the fricking time. That's how you get "perp was hit 72 times" or "more than 500 rounds were fired during the standoff".
 
2013-05-17 08:23:47 PM

dittybopper: nw_inferno: I've found that in practice, the cylinder pin tends to stick at the slightest whim and the cylinders like to jam if you don't pull them out just right.

Grease the pin really, really good.  Then grease it a bit more.  Once you've done that, add a bit of grease to it.

Pulling out the cylinder and popping one in quickly is just a matter of muscle memory.  You've got to pop it in and rotate it along it's axis at the same time.


Maybe yours works a lot better than mine, but the cyclinder for my uberti 1861 remington takes quite a bit of lining up to get right. once it's in it's very nice though. i'm still afraid to shoot it.
 
2013-05-17 08:57:33 PM

Bonzo_1116: new_york_monty:
Spring piston powerplant (as long as the kid is strong enough to repeatedly cock the mainspring) so he never needs to worry about buying CO2 or high pressure air. A .22 caliber pellet gun will do a much better job for small game hunting than a .177. There is an excellent airgun blog written by Tom Gaylord (would link, but it's affiliated with a commercial airgun shop) that has a ton of helpful info. He also writes an airguns column for Shotgun News. I'm a big fan of RWS (Diana) airguns, but they tend to be pricy as they're German made. The newer Benjamin Sheridan and Crossman precharged pneumatics are supposed to be fantastic, but I've not handled one myself.

ooooOOOoooo.  They're big hippies, so they'll love the DIY of that.

Hippies that want kill their meat, the best kind of hippies.   Do they make that kind of thing in rifle style?

/and so green, no CO2 cartridges.  LOL
//I like the idea because I'm cheap, and will take pumping for free any day over paying for CO2 cartridges.


Yes. Most of the ones powerful enough to hunt small game with are rifles. There are one or two spring pistols that can take a squirrel, but they are really minimal for that and awfully expensive. For something cheap, Gamo builds a decent air rifle in the $100-300 range. The RWS-Dianas are beautiful, but they start closer to $300 and get close to $1,000 for the recoil-less top of the line model. And there's no "pumping" per se, you need to set the spring once for each shot, either by breaking the barrel back toward the trigger guard, or with a side- or under-lever.

The spring piston rifles really are perfect survival weapons. They're powerful enough to take small land animals and birds, require a drop or two of lubricant every few thousand rounds, and a spring will last for decades unless it's used hundreds of times a day for years on end.

The only trick with spring piston guns is (unless you have a recoil-less model) they are very hold-sensitive. For best results, let the rifle balance on the palm of your forward hand and recoil at will. If you try to strangle them, the barrel vibrates in different directions each time. If you let them float around, they can be very, very accurate. My RWS 54 will touch a quarter with every shot at 50 yards if I do my part.

And careful if you want to scope them; the powerful models are harder on scopes than a 12 gauge. The recoil happens in two directions and will rip the lenses right out of something built for firearms. Leapers makes a couple of extra-tough models that hold up to the abuse.
 
2013-05-17 09:05:14 PM

duenor: Sgt.Zim:
Ever heard of suppressing fire?

I sure hope someone has said this by now, but in {some large percentage} of civilian-involved gunfights (and, yes, Virginia, cops are civilians too), suppressing fire is not a valid tactic.

Since when? What kind of poorly-informed statement is that?
When I'm in a fight for my life, every damn tactic short of deliberately injuring innocent people is on the table. If I need to, I will gladly put my 20 round magazine to good use, then put in a 30 rounder to keep going if that's what I or my family needs to get to safety. Suppressive fire isn't just for advancing on the enemy - it's also useful for retreating.
And as for cops, they use SF all the fricking time. That's how you get "perp was hit 72 times" or "more than 500 rounds were fired during the standoff".


I didn't say the cops weren't using it.  I said that most of the time, it's not a valid tactic for civilians.

In any non-military shooting situation, you are (or, in a perfect world, should be, but we all know the "law" aren't) responsible for every bullet you send downrange.

In the context of the question I was answering (from my phone, which makes it hard to type coherently at times), my point was that blindly spraying as stevetherobot suggested was a really bad farking idea.  As someone else mentioned upthread, in order to be effective, suppressive fire needs to be directed; the point is to endanger the enemy so that he keeps his head down, not endanger every innocent in the neighborhood.  If your position is untenable, you're so pinned down that you need suppressive fire in order to break contact, and the cavalry ain't on their way, by all means do it and Odin be with you; if I could I'd be right there to cover you during the leapfrog.

Point is, the set of circumstances that make suppressive fire civilian-valid are pretty tight.  The item I was answering, i.e. spraying randomly and then trying the "I was laying down a base of fire" defense at the inevitable negligent homicide and wrongful death trials, was a completely other point, which you appear to have missed.
 
2013-05-17 09:09:45 PM

new_york_monty: . For something cheap, Gamo builds a decent air rifle in the $100-300 range. The RWS-Dianas are beautiful, but they start closer to $300 and get close to $1,000 for the recoil-less top of the line model. And there's no "pumping" per se, you need to set the spring once for each shot, either by breaking the barrel back toward the trigger guard, or with a side- or under-lever.

The spring piston rifles really are perfect survival weapons. They're powerful enough to take small land animals and birds, require a drop or two of lubricant every few thousand rounds, and a spring will last for decades unless it's used hundreds of times a day for years on end.

The only trick with spring piston guns is (unless you have a recoil-less model) they are very hold-sensitive. For best re ...



Tomorrow's gunshow mission: putting hands on  Gamo and Diana.

Thanks for the input!
 
2013-05-17 09:17:57 PM

Bonzo_1116: new_york_monty: . For something cheap, Gamo builds a decent air rifle in the $100-300 range. The RWS-Dianas are beautiful, but they start closer to $300 and get close to $1,000 for the recoil-less top of the line model. And there's no "pumping" per se, you need to set the spring once for each shot, either by breaking the barrel back toward the trigger guard, or with a side- or under-lever.

The spring piston rifles really are perfect survival weapons. They're powerful enough to take small land animals and birds, require a drop or two of lubricant every few thousand rounds, and a spring will last for decades unless it's used hundreds of times a day for years on end.

The only trick with spring piston guns is (unless you have a recoil-less model) they are very hold-sensitive. For best re ...


Tomorrow's gunshow mission: putting hands on  Gamo and Diana.

Thanks for the input!


Happy to help. I shoot firearms more than airguns, but in some ways airguns fascinate me more. For instance, the first weapon you could really call an "assault rifle" (next to its contemporary firearms) was an airgun:

upload.wikimedia.org
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girandoni_Air_Rifle
 
2013-05-17 09:34:27 PM

duenor: dittybopper: nw_inferno: I've found that in practice, the cylinder pin tends to stick at the slightest whim and the cylinders like to jam if you don't pull them out just right.

Grease the pin really, really good.  Then grease it a bit more.  Once you've done that, add a bit of grease to it.

Pulling out the cylinder and popping one in quickly is just a matter of muscle memory.  You've got to pop it in and rotate it along it's axis at the same time.

Maybe yours works a lot better than mine, but the cyclinder for my uberti 1861 remington takes quite a bit of lining up to get right. once it's in it's very nice though. i'm still afraid to shoot it.


Yeah, my Pietta 1858 Remington is kinda finicky but like ditty was saying, you pretty much have to do a little rotate and slide maneuver (and it has to go out a certain side) and then it usually works.
Why are you afraid to shoot it? Just put a fraction of the normal powder charge in. That's the beauty of a muzzleloader; you can load as strong or light of a charge as you like. I didn't have an actual powder measure when I first started shooting mine so I looked up a rough conversion and used a 1/4 tsp. and worked my way up from there. The only thing to look out for is to not leave an air gap between the powder and the bullet (according to conventional wisdom it can cause the pressure to build up wrong and pop the chamber, although that may just be an old wives tale). I use lubed wads (basically a plug of greased felt) between the powder and the ball so it's not as much of an issue. If you're really worried, load up one chamber with a light load, rig the gun in a vise or something and fire it with dental floss or string.
 
2013-05-17 09:52:40 PM

Sgt.Zim: Damn good thing I reload. Of course, primers and component bullets are nearly as scarce as loaded ammo right now.


Of all things, primers are the biggest PITA right now. Powder is common enough that a backorder will be taken by some places and if you're fine with waiting, you can get it. But primers? Nobody wants to take backorders and all the auction places have them at about 3x cost.

I got a notice from Midway that 230gr .415 Hornady XTP bullets were in stock yesterday at 9:35AM. At 10:09 when I checked they were all sold. Luckily I already had enough and it was an old alert.
 
2013-05-17 10:48:09 PM

Mrbogey: Of all things, primers are the biggest PITA right now. Powder is common enough that a backorder will be taken by some places and if you're fine with waiting, you can get it. But primers? Nobody wants to take backorders and all the auction places have them at about 3x cost.


Hmm, in my neck of the woods, primers are scarce but can be found if you are patient.  Maybe it helps us that CCI is in-state. Standard Centerfire Powder on the other hand is non-existent.  You can find shotgun and 50BMGpowder, but nothing else.
 
2013-05-17 10:48:11 PM

Mrbogey: Sgt.Zim: Damn good thing I reload. Of course, primers and component bullets are nearly as scarce as loaded ammo right now.

Of all things, primers are the biggest PITA right now. Powder is common enough that a backorder will be taken by some places and if you're fine with waiting, you can get it. But primers? Nobody wants to take backorders and all the auction places have them at about 3x cost.


How to reload primers using strike-anywhere matches.

I can't personally attest to that method, but something to consider.
 
2013-05-17 10:57:02 PM
I think it's due to the Fark gun threads. Stop the gun threads, stop the ammo shortage.

/ I guess we won't have ammo for a while
 
2013-05-17 11:03:41 PM

dittybopper: I can't personally attest to that method, but something to consider.


For something that you can get for .15 each on gunbroker even now (0.03 each during normal times), I would stay as far away from that as i could.  I don't mind making my own bullets or forming brass from one caliber to another, I do draw the line here.  That is some volatile stuff.
 
2013-05-17 11:41:31 PM
The Walmart by me has no bullets whatsoever.
Cheaper than Dirt has my AK-47 ammo but it went from 5.00 a box a year ago to 13.20 now
 
2013-05-18 12:07:04 AM

HeadLever: dittybopper: I can't personally attest to that method, but something to consider.

For something that you can get for .15 each on gunbroker even now (0.03 each during normal times), I would stay as far away from that as i could.  I don't mind making my own bullets or forming brass from one caliber to another, I do draw the line here.  That is some volatile stuff.


Meh.  I'd do it if I needed to.

Point is, it's something you can do when you can't get the stuff to reload.
 
2013-05-18 12:33:00 AM

dittybopper: Mrbogey: Sgt.Zim: Damn good thing I reload. Of course, primers and component bullets are nearly as scarce as loaded ammo right now.

Of all things, primers are the biggest PITA right now. Powder is common enough that a backorder will be taken by some places and if you're fine with waiting, you can get it. But primers? Nobody wants to take backorders and all the auction places have them at about 3x cost.

How to reload primers using strike-anywhere matches.

I can't personally attest to that method, but something to consider.


The only way I would do that was if Lord Humongus was outside my house and primers were the one thing I lacked. Not that I doubt it works, but I'd rather play safe as long as I can.

HeadLever: Hmm, in my neck of the woods, primers are scarce but can be found if you are patient. Maybe it helps us that CCI is in-state. Standard Centerfire Powder on the other hand is non-existent. You can find shotgun and 50BMGpowder, but nothing else.


http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/

They seem to have a good sporadic supply. Got 2 pounds of Unique last month. Took a few weeks from order to arrival. It's just long to get shipped. Just check it every day. Stocks seem to be getting scarcer as of late.

All I want is a 8lb tub of CFE223 to give it a try.
 
2013-05-18 12:48:08 AM

dittybopper: Meh.  I'd do it if I needed to.


Yeah, I can see that, though I am still a long ways from the 'need' part still.  If it gets to a buck a primer, though, I might even attempt it.
 
2013-05-18 12:52:07 AM

Mrbogey: http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/

They seem to have a good sporadic supply. Got 2 pounds of Unique last month. Took a few weeks from order to arrival. It's just long to get shipped. Just check it every day. Stocks seem to be getting scarcer as of late.

All I want is a 8lb tub of CFE223 to give it a try.


Lol, I have been watching Powervalley like a hawk.  Never have been able to find what I need (H4198 or Re7).  Have heard good things about CFE223, though and I might have to give it a try in my 204 after my 8 pounds of Benchmark runs out.
 
2013-05-18 01:11:33 AM

sxacho: HoustonNick: No, but unlike you apparently, I do not view people as mere numbers.

And you still didn't answer my questions.  Would the death of an innocent be the best use of your tax dollars EVAR?

Good lord. I don't even have a dog in this fight, but I can see that you are refusing or unable to comprehend the answer that was previously given. He answered your question pretty clearly above.


This.

 I don't even agree with his stance, and this method of reducing the question bit by bit til it means something ridiculous, for no other reason than to try to prove that, under some obscure circumstance his generalized opinion that he threw out on fark might possibly be inaccurate, is pissing even me off.
 
2013-05-18 07:02:04 AM

ginkor: Just remember, if a violent criminal rapes and murders a member of your family, because those opposed to a sensible death penalty have made it so hard and time consuming that it could take 20 years for the state to off the SOB, that you can, if you catch them in the act, or hopefully *before* they commit the act, send them to Hell as judge, jury and executioner.

Just because you have the God or natural-given, not government given, right to have a gun and use it to defend your person and the lives of your loved ones.

And you'll also be a good citizen if you do so, because you will prevent the rapist-murderer from doing it again, to some other innocent person or people.  And the cost of trying and putting such a monster in prison for 20 years can run to about $2 million, you are saving the taxpayers money as well.

Bravo, and be sure to at least double-tap the beast, as the rest of us don't want to pay for his medical care, either.  And save your guilt for having to put down rabid dogs, for they deserve more sympathy.


I'm pro-gun, but if the death penalty deterred crimes, Texas would have the lowest crime rate in the US.

It doesn't.
 
2013-05-18 07:21:36 AM

HeadLever: dittybopper: Meh.  I'd do it if I needed to.

Yeah, I can see that, though I am still a long ways from the 'need' part still.  If it gets to a buck a primer, though, I might even attempt it.


Out here in the boonies its gotten hard to find much of anything.
If push comes to shove then refilled primers and a .224 bullet mold would go a long way.
 
2013-05-18 10:25:17 AM
OK, what the fark?  I've posted a couple of replies and neither of them have shown up.
 
2013-05-18 10:27:22 AM
So that one did.

Anyway, what I was saying to Mrbogey is that if you wait to learn how to do it until Lord Humongus is outside your house, you waited too long.

If you use eye protection, leather gloves, and do it in small batches away from any flammable material, I don't see any major safety hazards.
 
2013-05-18 11:18:55 AM

PunGent: I'm pro-gun, but if the death penalty deterred crimes, Texas would have the lowest crime rate in the US.


It doesn't when the state does it, which is inefficient.  But it deters the heck out of criminals when they get killed.  Importantly, gun liberty is starting to change criminal behavior, in that they are now so afraid of concealed carry that they are initiating their attacks on their victims with "sucker punches", to disable or kill them first, before robbing them.  But this is self defeating.
 
2013-05-18 03:08:48 PM

PunGent: I'm pro-gun, but if the death penalty deterred crimes, Texas would have the lowest crime rate in the US.


Or you could realize that crime rates depend upon numerous factors that drown any effects of the death penalty in the noise.  For one, the only crimes that the DP would even start to deter would be murder, and even in Texas most murderers are not eligible for the DP.  Even Texas saves it for 'extra-special' murders.

Personally, I support keeping the option around for two reasons:
1.  The person is just too dangerous to keep around.  My determining factor for this is 'Killed 3 or more people', and 3 is borderline...  The actual guidelines would end up filling a book.
2.  What they did is just that bad.  Deliberate torture in addition to murder.

Roughly speaking, I'd keep the DP as a 1% option.  If you try 10 murderers a year for 40 years, you should only encounter 4 DP cases.

ginkor: It doesn't when the state does it, which is inefficient. But it deters the heck out of criminals when they get killed. Importantly, gun liberty is starting to change criminal behavior, in that they are now so afraid of concealed carry that they are initiating their attacks on their victims with "sucker punches", to disable or kill them first, before robbing them. But this is self defeating.


Do you have some sort of citation that says this is actually happening?  Good point on that it's the perception of threat from CCW, not the actual threat of CCW'ers, who are still both rare and generally not encountering criminals* because they don't travel in the same zones.

*For those outside the USA, the whole country is NOT a hotbed of crime; for most stats we're actually comparable to Europe.  However something like 90% of our crime is concentrated in 10% of our population areas.  There are spots where you could be perfectly safe, walk one block and be in a 'danger zone' due to criminal activity, then walk another in a straight line and be safe again.  For example, with violent crime if you can figure out two gang's HQ's, if they're of equal power there will be a conflict zone midway between them where violence is OOM's higher.
 
2013-05-18 03:50:50 PM
and the rat IS trying to take guns. JUST AS PREDICTED, even though gun violence is at a low.
 
2013-05-18 08:10:07 PM
I've seen the Gunbroker site mentioned a few times here already.  Yeah, the ammo's out there; there's just a entire group of people who have set themselves up as additional middlemen between the retailers and the end users.

Go on Gunbroker and look at the completed auctions for CCI Mini Mag .22lr ammo.  There a bunch of individual auctions for 5,000 round, 10,000 round, and even 15,000 round lots.  That means that in a single auction, there's more .22lr trading hands than I've shot in my entire life.  Meanwhile, I haven't seen any on the shelves for almost six months.
 
2013-05-18 09:49:15 PM

jbar19: and the rat president IS trying to take guns. JUST AS PREDICTED, even though gun violence is at a low.


FTFY.  I'm no fan of the president, but he *IS* the president.
 
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