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(Engadget)   "We're number 3, We're number 3"   (engadget.com) divider line 62
    More: Interesting, Windows Phones, IDC, BlackBerry, mobile  
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6002 clicks; posted to Geek » on 16 May 2013 at 12:43 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-16 12:48:17 PM
They are just happy to beat Symbian.
 
2013-05-16 12:52:31 PM
Windows went from 2% market share.. to 3.2% market share.. and it steals the headlines from Apple, who went from 23 to 17, and got reported as having a positive YoY change. It did, in shipment volume- it's market share went DOWN by over 5%. Android increased across the board, but it's number of 79% growth doesn't look as impressive in comparison to.. Windows!

Did someone get a few too many steak and lobster dinners in Redmond?
 
2013-05-16 12:52:35 PM
I'm glad to see it's picking up steam.  I bought a WP8 phone in December and I really like it.  The only drawback is the slightly more limited app selection, but as the platform gets more popular that will be rectified.
 
2013-05-16 12:52:52 PM
Nice to see that 2013 is the year of Linux on [everything but] the desktop.
 
2013-05-16 12:56:26 PM
They have joined the proud ranks of the Libertarian Party, Linux users, and RC Cola.
 
2013-05-16 12:57:40 PM

RatOmeter: Nice to see that 2013 is the year of Linux on [everything but] the desktop.


Isn't Android based on Linux?
 
2013-05-16 01:00:13 PM

R.A.Danny: Windows went from 2% market share.. to 3.2% market share.. and it steals the headlines from Apple, who went from 23 to 17, and got reported as having a positive YoY change. It did, in shipment volume- it's market share went DOWN by over 5%. Android increased across the board, but it's number of 79% growth doesn't look as impressive in comparison to.. Windows!

Did someone get a few too many steak and lobster dinners in Redmond?


As a percentage WP has greater YoY growth than Android (133% vs 79%) but obviously Android sold far more units and had a greater YoY growth in terms of pure units shipped.

What's interesting is that both MS and Google are courting the developing world pretty heavily with budget-friendly devices while Apple is (as usual) sticking purely with models targeted towards the higher end of the market.  One approach isn't necessarily better than the other, Apple is more interested in margin than pure market share, and only making premium products does help with brand cachet.
 
2013-05-16 01:00:31 PM
I'm an old fogie... I'll buy a W8 phone when:  My zune breaks, and there will be at least a 64mb version to hold my music, (oh and there better be a 5.5 inch screen).

Otherwise, I'm hanging with my GN2...
 
2013-05-16 01:02:18 PM

mcreadyblue: RatOmeter: Nice to see that 2013 is the year of Linux on [everything but] the desktop.

Isn't Android based on Linux?


Yes.  In fact, I've got command prompt on my LG phone right now...

$ uname -a
Linux localhost 2.6.35.11 #1 PREEMPT Tue Jun 19 23:02:28 KST 2012 armv7l GNU/Linux
 
2013-05-16 01:04:43 PM

TuteTibiImperes: I'm glad to see it's picking up steam.  I bought a WP8 phone in December and I really like it.  The only drawback is the slightly more limited app selection, but as the platform gets more popular that will be rectified.


I want MLB.tv, dammit!
 
2013-05-16 01:08:15 PM
"Ha ha ha. You've fought the strongest master of this hole, the second strongest master of this hole, the fourth strongest master of this hole, and the weakest master of this hole! I'm truly the third strongest master of this hole. Now you see the true advantage of being third!"
 
2013-05-16 01:12:55 PM

Felgraf: "Ha ha ha. You've fought the strongest master of this hole, the second strongest master of this hole, the fourth strongest master of this hole, and the weakest master of this hole! I'm truly the third strongest master of this hole. Now you see the true advantage of being third!"


"I'm really the third strongest master. I'll destroy you now!"
 
2013-05-16 01:21:47 PM

metallion: I'm an old fogie... I'll buy a W8 phone when:  My zune breaks, and there will be at least a 64mb version to hold my music, (oh and there better be a 5.5 inch screen).

Otherwise, I'm hanging with my GN2...


That must be quite the MIDI collection!
 
2013-05-16 01:25:54 PM
oops. :)   mb...  Damn, I didn't realize just how bad an old fogie I am until now.. :)
 
2013-05-16 01:37:05 PM
Sort that by profit and lets see where all but the top 2 land.
 
2013-05-16 01:48:23 PM

TuteTibiImperes: I'm glad to see it's picking up steam.  I bought a WP8 phone in December and I really like it.  The only drawback is the slightly more limited app selection, but as the platform gets more popular that will be rectified.


Yeah, I only require two apps: Civilization Revolution and Netflix. Windows Phone has both, and its Netflix app does HD, unlike the app on Android and iPhone (both of which can do HD only for "selected content").

I do wish it did Amazon Instant Video too, though.

Anyway, picking up an HTC 8X when I change carriers in the next month or two.
 
2013-05-16 01:52:20 PM
Steven Elop is a cunning man.
From 40% market share to 3.2%.

Way to go Nokia!!!
 
2013-05-16 01:57:48 PM

Lord Dimwit: TuteTibiImperes: I'm glad to see it's picking up steam.  I bought a WP8 phone in December and I really like it.  The only drawback is the slightly more limited app selection, but as the platform gets more popular that will be rectified.

Yeah, I only require two apps: Civilization Revolution and Netflix. Windows Phone has both, and its Netflix app does HD, unlike the app on Android and iPhone (both of which can do HD only for "selected content").

I do wish it did Amazon Instant Video too, though.

Anyway, picking up an HTC 8X when I change carriers in the next month or two.


Check out the Nokia options too.  If you don't like the size/heft of the Lumia 920 (I like that it's hefty, some people don't care for it) they just announced the Lumia 925 which is similar but with a slimmed down case and less weight.
 
2013-05-16 02:15:21 PM
I chose Windows Phone over the competitors purely for battery life. My phone lasts 2 full days on a charge with moderate use. My friends are always complaining that their Androids run out of power before the end of the day.


I've never understood the complaints about app selection. There's hundreds of thousands of apps available, and I've found ones to do everything I ever want to do with my phone.
 
2013-05-16 02:22:53 PM

RatOmeter: Nice to see that 2013 is the year of Linux on [everything but] the desktop.


A (crappy) JVM running on top of a trimmed-down kernel does not a distro make. Especially when it's only a portal for vendor lock-in.

/Looking forward to when I can get back on Verizon and look at the Lumia 928
 
2013-05-16 02:24:43 PM

MithrandirBooga: I chose Windows Phone over the competitors purely for battery life. My phone lasts 2 full days on a charge with moderate use. My friends are always complaining that their Androids run out of power before the end of the day.


I've never understood the complaints about app selection. There's hundreds of thousands of apps available, and I've found ones to do everything I ever want to do with my phone.


True, I found all the porn ones as well.
 
2013-05-16 02:28:54 PM
I have a Windows 8 phone, I love it.

/true story
 
2013-05-16 02:36:10 PM

TuteTibiImperes: As a percentage WP has greater YoY growth than Android (133% vs 79%)


Easily done when your numbers start at almost nil.
 
2013-05-16 02:38:05 PM

Crudbucket: I have a Windows 8 phone, I love it.

/true story


I'm now a member of this group. I bought an 822 just to check out WP8... I figured I'd use it for a week and go back to my Gnex.

It's been about 2 months now and I have no desire to go back to Android. I find the WP8 experience to be better in every way... I was planning on getting an S4 before my experiment but I'm going with the 928 instead.
 
2013-05-16 03:08:14 PM
Microsoft has only been in the phone business for what, 13 years now? I'm sure it's just a matter of time.
 
2013-05-16 03:16:26 PM
MithrandirBooga:  My friends are always complaining that their Androids run out of power before the end of the day.

I think you'll find that battery life depends on the phone (obviously), but also very much on usage.  My LG Optimus Elite will burn through most of a charge in a day if the 3G radio ("Mobile data") is enabled.  Worse if it's not getting a 3G signal because it keeps transmitting to try to contact a tower.  Slightly worse yet if I also have WiFi and GPS enabled.  On the flip side, it'll last about 3 days days if I turn the 3G off and use WiFi.  This works pretty well for me, since most of the time I'm around home or work with WiFi available.

For a given processor, I reckon there shouldn't be too wild a difference in power consumption based on OS, assuming the it is controlling the processor's various power domains appropriately.
 
2013-05-16 03:19:04 PM

MrEricSir: Microsoft has only been in the phone business for what, 13 years now? I'm sure it's just a matter of time.


Almost as long as Cisco.

cdn-static.zdnet.com
 
2013-05-16 03:31:40 PM

MrEricSir: Microsoft has only been in the phone business for what, 13 years now? I'm sure it's just a matter of time.


MS fell behind in the same way that Blackberry did.  They had a huge head start over the competition, but focused the offerings primarily on business users.  It wasn't until Windows Mobile 6.5 that they even pretended to pay attention to people who wanted a smartphone for general entertainment and personal use, and even then it was halfassed.  Windows Phone 7 gave MS a truly consumer focused smartphone OS, but it was missing out on features compared to iOS and Android.  Windows Phone 8 caught up with, and even surpasses in some ways, iOS and Android, and MS also tightened up on the minimum hardware specs and pushed the hardware partners to actually produce devices that people want to buy.  The result has been a lot more people are now buying Windows Phones because they're finally making a competitive product.

I used phones running PalmOS and earlier versions of Windows Mobile back in the day, and when I replaced my WM6 device with an iPhone it was a revelation.  I would have likely stayed with Apple if they would have offered a phone with a decent sized screen, but in the end playing with a Lumia 920 at the AT&T store and seeing how well built the hardware was and how slick the OS was made me forget about the sins of MS phones past and give them another shot.  So far I'm really liking it.
 
2013-05-16 04:02:44 PM

TuteTibiImperes: I'm glad to see it's picking up steam.  I bought a WP8 phone in December and I really like it.  The only drawback is the slightly more limited app selection, but as the platform gets more popular that will be rectified.


Just replaced a BB with an iPhone because there were apps that I need for business that aren't available for WP8.  One of the things I noticed about the BB app store was that it was stuffed with crap.  $1.99 apps that were simply shortcuts to a mobile web site.  A search for "google maps" pulled up a bunch of shiat, but not the actual google maps app.  A direct result of RIM's technique of giving free gear and flat out money to "developers".

Then I saw that  Microsoft is doing the same thing.  Do you see that phenomenon in the Windows mobile app store?
 
2013-05-16 04:11:41 PM
I ordered a Nokia Lumina 928 from Verizon today. I am the 2.0%.
 
2013-05-16 04:13:43 PM

RatOmeter: MithrandirBooga:  My friends are always complaining that their Androids run out of power before the end of the day.

I think you'll find that battery life depends on the phone (obviously), but also very much on usage.  My LG Optimus Elite will burn through most of a charge in a day if the 3G radio ("Mobile data") is enabled.  Worse if it's not getting a 3G signal because it keeps transmitting to try to contact a tower.  Slightly worse yet if I also have WiFi and GPS enabled.  On the flip side, it'll last about 3 days days if I turn the 3G off and use WiFi.  This works pretty well for me, since most of the time I'm around home or work with WiFi available.

For a given processor, I reckon there shouldn't be too wild a difference in power consumption based on OS, assuming the it is controlling the processor's various power domains appropriately.


Here's the thing though. I can get 2 days on my Lumia 822 with Wifi and GPS enabled.

I don't have to worry about shutting things off all the time.

The only way I've found to drain this thing in less than 24 hours is to play a few hours of 3D games on it.
 
2013-05-16 04:13:57 PM

Unscratchable_Itch: I ordered a Nokia Lumina 928 from Verizon today. I am the 2.0%.


Make that 3.2%.

/ Read the damn table wrong.
 
2013-05-16 04:25:58 PM

Babwa Wawa: TuteTibiImperes: I'm glad to see it's picking up steam.  I bought a WP8 phone in December and I really like it.  The only drawback is the slightly more limited app selection, but as the platform gets more popular that will be rectified.

Just replaced a BB with an iPhone because there were apps that I need for business that aren't available for WP8.  One of the things I noticed about the BB app store was that it was stuffed with crap.  $1.99 apps that were simply shortcuts to a mobile web site.  A search for "google maps" pulled up a bunch of shiat, but not the actual google maps app.  A direct result of RIM's technique of giving free gear and flat out money to "developers".

Then I saw that  Microsoft is doing the same thing.  Do you see that phenomenon in the Windows mobile app store?



There is crap in the store. There are "portal" apps that are for-purchase which are simply interfaces over a website. As a web developer I wonder why they didn't simply create a mobile HTML version. I don't pay for those. I suppose most people when they get a phone they think of "apps" and just get those and rarely use the browser. I'm not sure.

For the most part everything seems legit. I haven't seen any outright scams yet. There's a bunch of "freemium" games which are impossibly hard and they entire you to buy "upgrades" to make the games easier, but those exist on every platform, and it's easy to simply uninstall it and find a better game for less money. Let's put it this way. My 16gb main memory is constantly full of apps and I'm always rotating games in and out as I get bored and find new ones.

I'll say my biggest complaint is that I wish this phone came in a 32gb version. I have a 64gb memory card added on but that's full (completely) of music, so any theoretical update they make in the future that allows apps to work on an expansion card wouldn't be very useful.
 
2013-05-16 04:49:08 PM

Unscratchable_Itch: I ordered a Nokia Lumina 928 from Verizon today. I am the 2.0%.


That Xenon flash is insane i.imgur.com
/Come on At&t bring EOS so I can sell my L920
 
2013-05-16 05:48:08 PM

Crudbucket: I have a Windows 8 phone, I love it.

/true story


Same.  Had a Lumia 900, then got the 920.  It's a great phone.  I've tried everything except the new Blackberry stuff, and I've been most happy with WP8.  It's stable, has just the right amount of customization, lets me delete all the dumb nonsense bloatware, and the camera is very good.  When it comes time to upgrade, I'll look at the latest and greatest from everyone, but I could easily get another Windows phone and be quite happy.
 
2013-05-16 06:03:06 PM
I'm switching to a Lumia 928 from the Android flavored RAZR (or ANDRD FLAVRD RAZR). Since the jellybean update I feel like I'm fighting with my phone more than I already had been. The weather app went bye bye, gotta use that stupid Google now thing that replaced search, which, by the way, is dog ass slow, like, 2-3 seconds between typing something and letters actually showing up on the screen. They reorganized the settings menu, again, so I can't even find the bloody alarm clock anymore. My wireless hotspot app that let me bypass VZW's asinine cash grab to enable that feature no longer works. Every time I plug it in to a computer it forgets the ringtones I've set and either sets them all to default or goes completely silent. Same thing happens when it switch it to silent or vibrate mode and switch it back to noisy. And on top of all that I found out that Google+, an app I never use, somehow ate up 600+ MB of data in one week since the upgrade. Luckily you can disable that "feature". Just...fark this phone.

I've had an unlocked L920 since November and it's way more user friendly, simple and quick. I just can't use it on Verizon's network even though it's a quad band, but that's a whole other rant. Best part about WP is you can uninstall any bloatware your carrier decides to put on it. No more got damned ESPN Zone and NFL apps eating up memory and storage space that can be better used for pr0n...erm...music.
 
2013-05-16 07:46:57 PM

Babwa Wawa: TuteTibiImperes: I'm glad to see it's picking up steam.  I bought a WP8 phone in December and I really like it.  The only drawback is the slightly more limited app selection, but as the platform gets more popular that will be rectified.

Just replaced a BB with an iPhone because there were apps that I need for business that aren't available for WP8.  One of the things I noticed about the BB app store was that it was stuffed with crap.  $1.99 apps that were simply shortcuts to a mobile web site.  A search for "google maps" pulled up a bunch of shiat, but not the actual google maps app.  A direct result of RIM's technique of giving free gear and flat out money to "developers".

Then I saw that  Microsoft is doing the same thing.  Do you see that phenomenon in the Windows mobile app store?


That's less Microsoft giving money to developers and more Google not wanting Microsoft to have a viable smartphone platform. Apple found out the hard way that you have to play Google's game if you want to sell smartphones, and Google's not even willing to play a down with Microsoft.

/which is anti-competitive and possibly antitrust behavior, but that's another discussion.
 
2013-05-16 08:39:39 PM

Marine1: That's less Microsoft giving money to developers and more Google not wanting Microsoft to have a viable smartphone platform. Apple found out the hard way that you have to play Google's game if you want to sell smartphones, and Google's not even willing to play a down with Microsoft.


I was talking about my experience with the Blackberry, where the google maps app wasn't available in their app store, but a bunch of other shiatful apps with "google maps" in their names or keywords were.

Whether that was google just not bothering to pay the $100 or so to get it listed in the BB app store, or refusing to put it in their app store doesn't matter.  RIM structured their app store as a pay-to-play situation like Apple's which you simply can't do if you're sucking hind tit.  If you're not first or second, you can't have that model.  Probably something along the lines of a curated app store, where app vendors can apply to have their apps listed, but you also have to right to put sideloaded apps searchable within it.  The result is that the BB app store is irrelevant.  If I wanted BB apps, I started with the web.  The BB app store was just full of crapps.  I find that MS' strategy is similarly lacking.
 
2013-05-16 09:12:06 PM
Congrats on becoming the RC cola of smartphones , Microsoft.
 
2013-05-16 09:43:09 PM

Babwa Wawa: Marine1: That's less Microsoft giving money to developers and more Google not wanting Microsoft to have a viable smartphone platform. Apple found out the hard way that you have to play Google's game if you want to sell smartphones, and Google's not even willing to play a down with Microsoft.

I was talking about my experience with the Blackberry, where the google maps app wasn't available in their app store, but a bunch of other shiatful apps with "google maps" in their names or keywords were.

Whether that was google just not bothering to pay the $100 or so to get it listed in the BB app store, or refusing to put it in their app store doesn't matter.  RIM structured their app store as a pay-to-play situation like Apple's which you simply can't do if you're sucking hind tit.  If you're not first or second, you can't have that model.  Probably something along the lines of a curated app store, where app vendors can apply to have their apps listed, but you also have to right to put sideloaded apps searchable within it.  The result is that the BB app store is irrelevant.  If I wanted BB apps, I started with the web.  The BB app store was just full of crapps.  I find that MS' strategy is similarly lacking.


All of the app stores have plenty of crap apps, the Windows Phone App Store included.

Overall the app situation isn't bad.  The first party apps from MS are all very solid, if you have to deal with MS Office documents at all the integrated Office apps are fantastic, the SkyDrive integration is strong, and the e-mail client works well.  The Nokia apps are almost first party considering how closely MS and Nokia are working together, and Nokia Maps (well, called 'Here Maps' now) works as well as Google Maps, and Nokia Drive (now 'Here Drive') is a great navigation program.  Media integration is a bit weaker - the Zune app (which was good) has been discontinued, and the Xbox Music app for the PC isn't as well developed, though the Xbox Music app on the phone works very well and the service itself is great.

The one thing I do miss is Google Voice - there's no Google Voice app, though there is an all called MetroTalk that integrates into the Google Voice service and does the same thing.  Unfortunately if Google changes things behind the scenes the app will break for a couple days until they rush out a patch to make it work again.  It's a minor annoyance, but it's there.

In some ways you just have to get used to doing things a bit differently.  I was initially disappointed with Nokia Maps because coming from an iPhone I was used to just firing up Google Maps and using that to find anything - phone numbers, business web sites, etc.  WP8 isn't designed that way - there's a dedicated search button on the front of the phone (powered by Bing of course) that you hit, type (or speak) whatever you're looking for, and brings up the neatly categorized results, which then links you to the appropriate app in the phone when you click on one (hit a phone number and the dialer comes up ready to call it, hit an address and you can view it in maps or set it as a destination in drive, etc).

When it comes to third party apps, I've been able to find ones to do anything I've needed to do.  The financial calculator on WP8 is a different one than the one I used on iOS, but functionally it does the same thing.  Some apps don't feel quite as polished - Words with Friends is much quicker and slicker on iOS than the WP8 port for example.  Finally, there are a few niche apps not available at all.  A couple that I use for work are only available on iOS, but I have an iPad for those anyway, so it's a non-issue for me.
 
2013-05-16 10:01:38 PM
royal.pingdom.com

In other words, there's:

Android
iOS
Look at all the farks I give!  No farks!
 
2013-05-16 10:58:50 PM

MrEricSir: Microsoft has only been in the phone business for what, 13 years now? I'm sure it's just a matter of time.


Apple has been making computers for how long?  It's just a matter of time.  I've seen (worldwide) estimates of desktop % by OS, and OSX is somewhere in the 6% range.  It is about 90% based on TV and movies.
 
2013-05-16 11:29:40 PM

dletter: Congrats on becoming the RC cola of smartphones , Microsoft.


Hey! I like RC Cola.
 
2013-05-16 11:37:36 PM

Babwa Wawa: Marine1: That's less Microsoft giving money to developers and more Google not wanting Microsoft to have a viable smartphone platform. Apple found out the hard way that you have to play Google's game if you want to sell smartphones, and Google's not even willing to play a down with Microsoft.

I was talking about my experience with the Blackberry, where the google maps app wasn't available in their app store, but a bunch of other shiatful apps with "google maps" in their names or keywords were.

Whether that was google just not bothering to pay the $100 or so to get it listed in the BB app store, or refusing to put it in their app store doesn't matter.  RIM structured their app store as a pay-to-play situation like Apple's which you simply can't do if you're sucking hind tit.  If you're not first or second, you can't have that model.  Probably something along the lines of a curated app store, where app vendors can apply to have their apps listed, but you also have to right to put sideloaded apps searchable within it.  The result is that the BB app store is irrelevant.  If I wanted BB apps, I started with the web.  The BB app store was just full of crapps.  I find that MS' strategy is similarly lacking.


Ah. My bad.
 
2013-05-16 11:43:23 PM
After looking at the cluster that is the Galaxy S4, I could see Android sales slipping over the next year.

/retarded amount of toggles in the notification tray and only 9GB of app storage
//HTC One might be better, but most users will go for the slower One X+ for obvious reasons
 
2013-05-16 11:50:04 PM

Electrify: After looking at the cluster that is the Galaxy S4, I could see Android sales slipping over the next year.

/retarded amount of toggles in the notification tray and only 9GB of app storage
//HTC One might be better, but most users will go for the slower One X+ for obvious reasons


I thought the S4 had a lot of positive press for the launch, though I haven't looked at it too closely.

What would be the reason for taking the One X+ over the HTC One?  Cheaper?
 
2013-05-16 11:53:57 PM

Electrify: After looking at the cluster that is the Galaxy S4, I could see Android sales slipping over the next year.

/retarded amount of toggles in the notification tray and only 9GB of app storage
//HTC One might be better, but most users will go for the slower One X+ for obvious reasons


You have to wonder just how long Samsung will stick with Android.
 
2013-05-17 12:08:40 AM

Marine1: Electrify: After looking at the cluster that is the Galaxy S4, I could see Android sales slipping over the next year.

/retarded amount of toggles in the notification tray and only 9GB of app storage
//HTC One might be better, but most users will go for the slower One X+ for obvious reasons

You have to wonder just how long Samsung will stick with Android.


Well, they can't make iOS devices, they've made Windows Phones in the past but they weren't as good as the ones made by others, Symbian is dying, and Blackberry doesn't seem likely to license their OS.

Android is pretty much their only option unless they want to release something with an in-house developed OS.  They have some brand recognition now, so if the Galaxy S5 ran SamungOS instead of Android a lot of people might buy it just on the name, but when they discovered that they couldn't download and use all of the Android apps they were used to things could turn ugly.

Google hasn't done very much as far as putting restrictions or strict guidelines on hardware manufacturers or network operators anyway though, so there's probably little reason for Samsung to want to change.
 
2013-05-17 12:24:23 AM

TuteTibiImperes: Marine1: Electrify: After looking at the cluster that is the Galaxy S4, I could see Android sales slipping over the next year.

/retarded amount of toggles in the notification tray and only 9GB of app storage
//HTC One might be better, but most users will go for the slower One X+ for obvious reasons

You have to wonder just how long Samsung will stick with Android.

Well, they can't make iOS devices, they've made Windows Phones in the past but they weren't as good as the ones made by others, Symbian is dying, and Blackberry doesn't seem likely to license their OS.

Android is pretty much their only option unless they want to release something with an in-house developed OS.  They have some brand recognition now, so if the Galaxy S5 ran SamungOS instead of Android a lot of people might buy it just on the name, but when they discovered that they couldn't download and use all of the Android apps they were used to things could turn ugly.

Google hasn't done very much as far as putting restrictions or strict guidelines on hardware manufacturers or network operators anyway though, so there's probably little reason for Samsung to want to change.


I have a Win8 phone from Samsung, the Ativ S. It's basically the same guts as the Galaxy III. I know it's not a big market for them at all, but they do have a little skin in the game.
 
2013-05-17 12:34:00 AM

Crudbucket: TuteTibiImperes: Marine1: Electrify: After looking at the cluster that is the Galaxy S4, I could see Android sales slipping over the next year.

/retarded amount of toggles in the notification tray and only 9GB of app storage
//HTC One might be better, but most users will go for the slower One X+ for obvious reasons

You have to wonder just how long Samsung will stick with Android.

Well, they can't make iOS devices, they've made Windows Phones in the past but they weren't as good as the ones made by others, Symbian is dying, and Blackberry doesn't seem likely to license their OS.

Android is pretty much their only option unless they want to release something with an in-house developed OS.  They have some brand recognition now, so if the Galaxy S5 ran SamungOS instead of Android a lot of people might buy it just on the name, but when they discovered that they couldn't download and use all of the Android apps they were used to things could turn ugly.

Google hasn't done very much as far as putting restrictions or strict guidelines on hardware manufacturers or network operators anyway though, so there's probably little reason for Samsung to want to change.

I have a Win8 phone from Samsung, the Ativ S. It's basically the same guts as the Galaxy III. I know it's not a big market for them at all, but they do have a little skin in the game.


AFAIK Samsung hasn't launched that on any of the carriers in the US (though I suppose you could buy one full price unlocked and use it on AT&T or T-Mobile if you wanted).
 
2013-05-17 12:41:54 AM
TuteTibiImperes: AFAIK Samsung hasn't launched that on any of the carriers in the US (though I suppose you could buy one full price unlocked and use it on AT&T or T-Mobile if you wanted).

Which is what I have done. It was slated for a US release at some point in 2012, but that was either pushed back or canceled when Win8 didn't catch fire right away.
 
2013-05-17 01:12:11 AM

TuteTibiImperes: They had a huge head start over the competition, but focused the offerings primarily on business users.


Consumers watch movies and listen to music on their phones. Nobody had the mobile bandwidth for that back in the day. Wifi wasn't even widespread.

Smartphones just dealt with text and sometimes pictures, because they had dial-up speeds to work with.

Windows Phone is eventually going to do very well. 7 million units shipped in a single quarter is probably more than Palm shipped of the Treo grand total (talking out of my ass). That's enough to reach critical mass, where developers will put time into making apps. Once enterprise shops start shipping their .Net desktop apps on Windows phone, the same lockin cycle will begin, and lazy IT managers everywhere will breathe a sigh of relief. No longer will they have to worry about hiring developers for "objective-c", whatever that is.

Windows goons have effectively waited out the iPhone/Android "craze" and it will be business as usual for the worst technologists in the game.

/onion, meet belt
 
2013-05-17 01:43:48 AM

mccallcl: TuteTibiImperes: They had a huge head start over the competition, but focused the offerings primarily on business users.

Consumers watch movies and listen to music on their phones. Nobody had the mobile bandwidth for that back in the day. Wifi wasn't even widespread.

Smartphones just dealt with text and sometimes pictures, because they had dial-up speeds to work with.

Windows Phone is eventually going to do very well. 7 million units shipped in a single quarter is probably more than Palm shipped of the Treo grand total (talking out of my ass). That's enough to reach critical mass, where developers will put time into making apps. Once enterprise shops start shipping their .Net desktop apps on Windows phone, the same lockin cycle will begin, and lazy IT managers everywhere will breathe a sigh of relief. No longer will they have to worry about hiring developers for "objective-c", whatever that is.

Windows goons have effectively waited out the iPhone/Android "craze" and it will be business as usual for the worst technologists in the game.

/onion, meet belt


True, it wasn't practical to stream music or video to a mobile phone ten years ago, but the original iPhone launched without 3G speeds as well.  The whole concept of a consumer focused easy to use UI combined with a single source app store was revolutionary for phones.  Google saw the light pretty early and rushed to get into the game, MS followed suit not too far after, Blackberry drug its feet for so long that it may be all over.

MS, Apple, and Google all have the benefit of nearly limitless piles of cash.  MS has shown in the past that they're willing to keep investing in a product that they're losing money on until it breaks through (look at the original Xbox which played second fiddle to the PS2 compared to the launch of the 360 where they were able to pull ahead for a while).

MS and Apple have another benefit Google doesn't - they're both players in the full desktop/laptop market.  The next 'killer app' is going to be full integration between your phone, your tablet, and your full computer.  Right now both ecosystems are a bit fractured, MS's more so with two incompatible tablet OSes (Windows 8 RT and Windows 8 Pro) but MS has stated that their goal is to combine everything into one.  Imagine being able to buy a program for your PC, and automatically having appropriate versions (designed for screen size and hardware capabilities) install on your tablet and your phone.

That's the future, and MS is arguably in the best position to do it.  With Windows Phone 8 they've already moved the OS to the NT kernel, so designing an application that runs on your home computer and your phone becomes almost as trivial and recompiling for x86 vs ARM, and if Intel can get Atom to hit the same performance per watt and total power efficiency of ARM chips (and they're already pretty close) there won't even be a need to deal with that.
 
2013-05-17 02:04:04 AM

TuteTibiImperes: The next 'killer app' is going to be full integration between your phone, your tablet, and your full computer.


I don't believe this to be true, in the sense that you'll have apps that run on all three devices. You may have developers writing apps for all three devices, and buying one gives you access to another for free. I can tell you as a mobile developer, mobile apps are their own beast entirely. They are way more expensive to write, screen-for-screen. They are more expensive for the end-user to operate (in terms of data and battery drain). The usage pattern is take out your phone, swipe to unlock, tap, maybe one more tap, put it away. You care about context, like where the phone is and what direction it's pointing. You make apps that take pictures or videos, whereas a desktop app wouldn't have that feature most likely. A lot of apps have no place on the desktop at all, like foursquare. Plus the web has killed compiled desktop apps for all but the most dusty-ass IT shops.

If anything, I'm seeing more fragmentation between the desktop and mobile as time goes on. Mobile is a disruptive technology, and it doesn't want to get chained to the technology it's disrupting.

TuteTibiImperes: The whole concept of a consumer focused easy to use UI combined with a single source app store was revolutionary for phones.


The App Store was made possible by a couple of key developments: .mac and the iTunes store gave Apple the skills and infrastructure it needed to host such a thing (and it still used to go down all the time back in the day). The revolutionary iOS UI was developed by the foremost user interface organization in the world, under the watchful eye of the industry's most notorious professional asshole, at the peak of his abilities. The superiority of the UI and industrial design drove app developers to the device. Even this almost didn't work. It was a miracle that the dev community embraced the worst development system on the planet and suffered a 30% tax on revenue, while having their work restricted by the app store guidelines.

I bet Microsoft was pretty surprised at Apple's distinct lack of developer ass-kissing and enterprise pandering. Seems as though developers were willing to try almost anything instead of running their own distribution network from scratch. The app store stole a ton of talent from the enterprise market, where devs were working for a %.00001 share of the profit. It was a huge surprise and a lot of people didn't see it coming.

This round is going to be about quietly grinding your way to a 15% market share, while keeping profits up.

Round 3 is going to be about fighting over the limited pool of developers making more complex apps for your platform. Phones have a lifespan of like 18 months. It's still anybody's game and Microsoft has 3 million developers that are effectively locked out of the mobile space without Windows. Even if everybody who programs .Net buys a Windows phone, that will be enough to keep them in the vertical markets that use the same device for ten years at a time. Ask SAP, there's plenty to be made there.
 
2013-05-17 02:33:32 AM

mccallcl: TuteTibiImperes: The next 'killer app' is going to be full integration between your phone, your tablet, and your full computer.

I don't believe this to be true, in the sense that you'll have apps that run on all three devices. You may have developers writing apps for all three devices, and buying one gives you access to another for free. I can tell you as a mobile developer, mobile apps are their own beast entirely. They are way more expensive to write, screen-for-screen. They are more expensive for the end-user to operate (in terms of data and battery drain). The usage pattern is take out your phone, swipe to unlock, tap, maybe one more tap, put it away. You care about context, like where the phone is and what direction it's pointing. You make apps that take pictures or videos, whereas a desktop app wouldn't have that feature most likely. A lot of apps have no place on the desktop at all, like foursquare. Plus the web has killed compiled desktop apps for all but the most dusty-ass IT shops.

If anything, I'm seeing more fragmentation between the desktop and mobile as time goes on. Mobile is a disruptive technology, and it doesn't want to get chained to the technology it's disrupting.


Local compiled applications make sense for a lot of things still.  Anything dealing with large files (video editing, high end photo editing, audio mixing, etc) anything that requires a lot of processing power (a lot of the previous stuff plus 3D games) and anything that isn't forgiving of latency.  Sure, more stuff will be going towards 'the cloud' but I'd much rather use a local app over a web app for most things.

I'm not arguing for the same exact version across all platforms.  You wouldn't want to run try to navigate Photoshop's UI on a 4" phone screen, nor would the hardware make actually doing anything very fun.  Some applications will remain squarely rooted in one type of device, others could be very usable across devices.  Think of a game like a new FPS - you have the full version on the desktop, a tablet version with touch and motion sensor based controls and reduced graphical requirements, and an even more stripped down version you could use on your phone, maybe with some augmented reality type stuff thrown in.  For a non-game example how about the ubiquitous Office Suite?  MS is already doing this - you can use the full version of Office on your desktop/laptop, a slightly slimmed down version on a Windows RT tablet, and still have the ability to view all of the files and edit in some ways on your Windows 8 Phone.  I'm sure there will be developers who can come up with creative ways to add extra functionality and convenience from their applications being available across multiple devices.

TuteTibiImperes: The whole concept of a consumer focused easy to use UI combined with a single source app store was revolutionary for phones.

The App Store was made possible by a couple of key developments: .mac and the iTunes store gave Apple the skills and infrastructure it needed to host such a thing (and it still used to go down all the time back in the day). The revolutionary iOS UI was developed by the foremost user interface organization in the world, under the watchful eye of the industry's most notorious professional asshole, at the peak of his abilities. The superiority of the UI and industrial design drove app developers to the device. Even this almost didn't work. It was a miracle that the dev community embraced the worst development system on the planet and suffered a 30% tax on revenue, while having their work restricted by the app store guidelines.
I bet Microsoft was pretty surprised at Apple's distinct lack of developer ass-kissing and enterprise pandering. Seems as though developers were willing to try almost anything instead of running their own distribution network from scratch. The app store stole a ton of talent from the enterprise market, where devs were working for a %.00001 share of the profit. It was a huge surprise and a lot of people didn't see it coming.
This round is going to be about quietly grinding your way to a 15% market share, while keeping profits up.
Round 3 is going to be about fighting over the limited pool of developers making more complex apps for your platform. Phones have a lifespan of like 18 months. It's still anybody's game and Microsoft has 3 million developers that are effectively locked out of the mobile space without Windows. Even if everybody who programs .Net buys a Windows phone, that will be enough to keep them in the vertical markets that use the same device for ten years at a time. Ask SAP, there's plenty to be made there.
  ...
I don't see there ever being an issue with a shortage of developers.  If anything the mobile app boom has brought in more talent.  It may take a lot of time, expertise, and money to develop the best mobile apps, but a lot of people are cutting their software development teeth for the first time with mobile apps, and doing some creative things.  The ability to sell (almost) direct to the public and have another company (whether Google, Apple, or MS) handle the infrastructure of actually delivery your program to those who want it as well as some advertising and promotion makes giving up a cut of the revenue worthwhile to a lot of smaller shops that don't have established connections and experience with publishing.

I also think you're shortchanging the usable life of a phone.  Most contracts are 24 months, and most people don't upgrade before the end of that time.  I used an iPhone 3GS for three years before upgrading to a Lumia 920.  I know people still using first generation  Android phones, and there are plenty of people still using dumb phones that they've had for four years or more.  Still, one of the greatest strengths of Android in the marketplace is one of its greatest weaknesses here - the sheer variety of hardware out there (not to mention skins, UI overlays, and different versions of the OS floating about).  On Android you have everything from 1080p quad-core beasts with 2 gigs of RAM to 320p single core pre-paid phones with half a gig of RAM running two or three versions back of the current version of Android, both being sold new right now.  While MS doesn't have the device uniformity that Apple does, they have done a better job at enforcing certain standards across the board for WP8 than Google has for Android, as well as doing a better job of making sure carriers don't meddle with OS updates.
 
2013-05-17 07:10:53 AM

MithrandirBooga: I chose Windows Phone over the competitors purely for battery life. My phone lasts 2 full days on a charge with moderate use. My friends are always complaining that their Androids run out of power before the end of the day.


I've never understood the complaints about app selection. There's hundreds of thousands of apps available, and I've found ones to do everything I ever want to do with my phone.


Yup yup. I've also never understood the claim that raw app quantity was a measure of anything meaningful.

The fact that ios has 50x more fart soundboard and flashlight apps means teh market has spoken?
 
2013-05-17 10:19:15 AM

TuteTibiImperes: Marine1: Electrify: After looking at the cluster that is the Galaxy S4, I could see Android sales slipping over the next year.

/retarded amount of toggles in the notification tray and only 9GB of app storage
//HTC One might be better, but most users will go for the slower One X+ for obvious reasons

You have to wonder just how long Samsung will stick with Android.

Well, they can't make iOS devices, they've made Windows Phones in the past but they weren't as good as the ones made by others, Symbian is dying, and Blackberry doesn't seem likely to license their OS.

Android is pretty much their only option unless they want to release something with an in-house developed OS.  They have some brand recognition now, so if the Galaxy S5 ran SamungOS instead of Android a lot of people might buy it just on the name, but when they discovered that they couldn't download and use all of the Android apps they were used to things could turn ugly.

Google hasn't done very much as far as putting restrictions or strict guidelines on hardware manufacturers or network operators anyway though, so there's probably little reason for Samsung to want to change.


Well, they do have Bada and Tizen.

It just sort of stuns me that they haven't done more to monetize that gargantuan pile of handsets they've sold. If and when they do, they might run in to Google's vendor lock-in model for Android.

And the ATIV S was an absolute dud. WP8 didn't catch on fire, sure, but that doesn't mean you hobble the device's launch even further with delays and non-existent OEM support. It was a case of "let's make a vanilla product and not support it" if there ever was one.
 
2013-05-17 10:24:11 AM

TuteTibiImperes: Local compiled applications make sense for a lot of things still.


Yes and no. From a usability standpoint, yes. There are still things the web doesn't get quite right from a business perspective either. It doesn't do DRM and hates any kind of IP protection. On the usability side, it takes a lot of talent to take a web app to local-level usability. It's possible though, take a look at soundcloud.com, that site is a marvel.

Anyway, developing native apps is much more expensive than for the web, in terms of per-user reach/dollar. It comes in real handy when you actually want to get paid for your work, though. The 30% tax from the app store beats having your app pirated by 75% of its users and still having to pay to distribute it yourself.

TuteTibiImperes: MS is already doing this - you can use the full version of Office on your desktop/laptop, a slightly slimmed down version on a Windows RT tablet, and still have the ability to view all of the files and edit in some ways on your Windows 8 Phone.


Apple does the same thing with Garageband. It's expensive as balls. I hear it's easier on the Microsoft mobile stack, but I haven't tried yet.

TuteTibiImperes: I don't see there ever being an issue with a shortage of developers.


Try hiring five to work on something. I could go on about the shortage of developers and how you can see examples of this, but one way it's easy to tell is the difference between consumer apps and enterprise or vertical apps. Pay attention the next time you're out shopping. There are two kinds of POS systems: Square Register on an iPad like some Buck Rogers shiat, or that same-old terrible IBM hardware running Aloha with a cash drawer that the cashier just pushes back in out of instinct. That's because out of all the companies making POS systems, only Square can find enough talent to fill a room.

All the vertical and enterprise apps are on hold. They are not getting written because there is too much money to be made making fart apps and high-end shopping membership apps and $5500 one-offs for record labels.

TuteTibiImperes: Most contracts are 24 months, and most people don't upgrade before the end of that time.


Phones break or get lost. Many users do upgrade every 18 months. Even if they don't, OS upgrades drag all the developers' apps along with them, and the phone can't run my app, therefore the user is dead to me. 18 months, I'm telling you.

/good discussion
 
2013-05-17 10:55:13 AM
I'm thinking of getting a new phone in October/September(my contract just ran out but I'm going overseas in September so I can sit on getting a new phone until then).
I had a Sony X-Peria which was such a POS that I'm boycotting Sony for the rest of my life, I sent it back to get fixed because it wouldn't accept a charge anymore(or data) and was told I'd broken it somehow in my first two months of owning it and my warranty was now invalidated. So I took it to a repair guy who swore he could fix it based on what Sony told me was broken with it but that doing the repair would absolutely void my warranty, given that it was already dead I told him to try anyway. He told me that it wasn't what they said it was, it was actually probably the motherboard or something similar to it and that Sony had just been lazy and not bothered to check it properly. However, now I couldn't send it back and it couldn't charge a battery anymore so... sorry you're SOL. The Sony people never got back to me when I complained so I gave up, I had a year and a half left on my contract at this stage.

19 months later I've kept the thing alive by buying a second battery and a lithium battery charger and just not giving a fark about what happened to the phone. The screen is scratched up to hell and back now but it still works well enough. I threw out the cover-case for it because I stopped caring, I've dropped the phone from a bicycle and had it scratch along the road for a few meters while the battery was driven over. I've just stopped caring if it died and it has somehow thrived under my oppression. I put files onto it by emailing them to myself and receiving them via Wifi because my computers don't have Bluetooth. I'm actually a bit better off because I don't have to plug my phone into a computer or the wall to charge it to full every day, I just replace the battery when I'm running low.

My next phone will be a Nokia. Every phone I've had except this Sony phone was a Nokia and they just worked everytime. Most of them were second hand(my friend would dump their phones on me whenever they upgraded for years, no-one does that anymore because everyones phones die around the time they're able to upgrade). I know that Nokia has had a major shift in the last few years but I don't really care. I trust them and liked playing with WP8 when I had a fiddle with it a few months back, so I'll be the only one of my friends to go for it and I'll see how it goes.

The lesson here is never buy Sony. The thing was tough once it broke, but not Nokia tough. I once cut my mouth open when someone threw my Nokia phone at my face. Damn thing was still working, just baptised a little bit in my blood.
 
2013-05-17 01:23:53 PM

Marine1: And the ATIV S was an absolute dud. WP8 didn't catch on fire, sure, but that doesn't mean you hobble the device's launch even further with delays and non-existent OEM support. It was a case of "let's make a vanilla product and not support it" if there ever was one.


I had the original Samsung Focus, which was a WP7 launch model.  At that point maybe it was more understandable to have a mediocre, generic Windows Phone handset since there wasn't a truly great WP7 phone pre-Lumia, but now? No.

The 92x and HTC 8X blow it out of the water and honestly are the equals of Galaxies and iPhones... And Samsung tries the same generic, unimaginative phone for Windows Phone and seems surprised when it fails.
 
2013-05-17 06:33:20 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Electrify: After looking at the cluster that is the Galaxy S4, I could see Android sales slipping over the next year.

/retarded amount of toggles in the notification tray and only 9GB of app storage
//HTC One might be better, but most users will go for the slower One X+ for obvious reasons

I thought the S4 had a lot of positive press for the launch, though I haven't looked at it too closely.

What would be the reason for taking the One X+ over the HTC One?  Cheaper?


The same reason why someone who has done virtually no market research would choose an iPhone 4S over an iPhone 4. The naming lends itself for one to deduct that the One X+ is more cutting edge than the One. That said, Considering the fact that it is cheaper, has more storage, and uses a Tegra 3 chip for exclusive games does mean you are getting a very fine piece of hardware.
 
2013-05-17 06:55:43 PM

TuteTibiImperes: Marine1: Electrify: After looking at the cluster that is the Galaxy S4, I could see Android sales slipping over the next year.

/retarded amount of toggles in the notification tray and only 9GB of app storage
//HTC One might be better, but most users will go for the slower One X+ for obvious reasons

You have to wonder just how long Samsung will stick with Android.

Well, they can't make iOS devices, they've made Windows Phones in the past but they weren't as good as the ones made by others, Symbian is dying, and Blackberry doesn't seem likely to license their OS.

Android is pretty much their only option unless they want to release something with an in-house developed OS.  They have some brand recognition now, so if the Galaxy S5 ran SamungOS instead of Android a lot of people might buy it just on the name, but when they discovered that they couldn't download and use all of the Android apps they were used to things could turn ugly.

Google hasn't done very much as far as putting restrictions or strict guidelines on hardware manufacturers or network operators anyway though, so there's probably little reason for Samsung to want to change.


Guess this could bring back Bada?

Seriously though, I have nothing but good things to say about Samsung. While I've read about the occasional bad experience, in my experience they remain as the last mass electronics manufacturer to build things which don't break. The only Samsung product I've ever owned which died due to general use was a CRT TV, after about 10 years. While others have more user friendly designs, Samsung tends to make it count where it counts most: performance and reliability.

This is what saddens me most about the S4. There is a line between not being the most user friendly, and completely ignoring the consumer experience, and Samsung crossed it with the S4. Above the notifications pull down menu, there are EIGHTEEN different toggles to choose from! Give the device to someone coming from an iPhone, and they will be overwhelmed - let alone an older person getting their first smartphone.

The S3 has a number of different toggles for gimmicky features, but they are placed in the settings menu. The only ones I have on are the ones that keep the screen from going out when looking at it (which is far from perfect, but better than nothing I guess) and the ability to call someone I am texting by raising the phone to my ear. I keep these ones on and use my phone as if these features are automatic by default. I don't need options to enable or disable them instantly, clogging up the quick toggle menu! And I am sure others don't want them making using their new device an intimidating experience either!

Did they do ANY product testing at all before releasing it?!

The S4 Google Edition cannot come out soon enough, Hopefully by the fall it is released to carriers before too much damage is done to the brand, and if Samsung releases a new version of TouchWiz for the S5, it is more streamlined than the current version (bonus points if they make it appear as close to stock Android as possible).
 
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