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(Rolling Stone)   The oil markets are rigged and Europe is actually doing something about it   (rollingstone.com) divider line 120
    More: Hero, European Commission, Europe, raid, Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, oil companies, Libor, financial markets, Office of Fair Trading  
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20159 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 May 2013 at 1:35 PM (48 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



120 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-05-15 01:38:30 PM
Tomorrow's headline "Europe found dead in a ditch with hands bound behind it's back, bullet wound to back of skull. Coroner declares it a suicide"
 
2013-05-15 01:39:13 PM
Why yes, it's national treasure Matt Taibbi.
I'll never understand the Rolling Stone thing.
 
2013-05-15 01:40:30 PM
Is this the final countdown?
 
2013-05-15 01:41:17 PM
So that's why my Total stock is off today.
 
2013-05-15 01:41:32 PM
It's supply and demand. Remember that, Citizen. Now run along, and go about your business.
 
2013-05-15 01:43:07 PM
api.ning.com
 
2013-05-15 01:45:10 PM
Well, color me "surprised"

/NOT
 
2013-05-15 01:45:50 PM

Walker: Is this the final countdown?


No, this is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o2ufv_c0xI
 
2013-05-15 01:46:05 PM
Europe is just jealous of the oil company's profits.
 
2013-05-15 01:46:51 PM
Fined hundreds of millions of dollars??? Oh dear they will have nothing to fear!
 
2013-05-15 01:48:01 PM
No sh*t / good for them
 
2013-05-15 01:48:07 PM
tallytaxman.com

What?  Say it's not so!

People in power collude to monopolize power... who would play such a sick game?
 
2013-05-15 01:48:09 PM
Still no word on why gas stations surrounding Louisville, KY cost 80 cents less than gas stations in downtown Louisville
 
2013-05-15 01:48:17 PM
I keep getting richer but I can't get my picture on the cover of the Rolling Stone.
 
2013-05-15 01:48:44 PM
scm-l3.technorati.com
 
2013-05-15 01:49:59 PM

cwolf20: Still no word on why gas stations surrounding Louisville, KY cost 80 cents less than gas stations in downtown Louisville


The same reason office space in surrounding Louisville costs less per sq. ft. than office space in downtown Louisville.
 
2013-05-15 01:50:19 PM
As someone who just paid $6.27 a gallon today, I am getting a kick out of all these replies.
 
2013-05-15 01:50:22 PM
assets.rollingstone.com
I say, white collar crime is as American as bootlegging.
 
2013-05-15 01:50:42 PM
Well, that was a whole lot of nothing.

I'm no fan of Big Energy, but if we're going to convict or even fine them for something, let's see some evidence.
 
2013-05-15 01:51:32 PM
Hell, it's about time.
 
2013-05-15 01:51:34 PM

Rapmaster2000: cwolf20: Still no word on why gas stations surrounding Louisville, KY cost 80 cents less than gas stations in downtown Louisville

The same reason office space in surrounding Louisville costs less per sq. ft. than office space in downtown Louisville.


Because it will take 2 gallons to drive to where it's cheaper?
 
2013-05-15 01:54:58 PM
I've always wondered why we don't have price controls on oil and gas. We are, more or less, a captive market.

I mean, we've got price controls in agriculture and many other areas; but, not in the most important area to the economy.
 
2013-05-15 01:55:08 PM
*ahem*   DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

Obvious Tag is missing.
 
2013-05-15 01:55:28 PM
Oh god... the Tom Friedman Article Generator he linked to in one of his earlier articles is farking GENIUS.

http://thomasfriedmanopedgenerator.com/
 
2013-05-15 01:56:19 PM
Next to be looked into should be the taxes on gas, which consist of 75% (or more) of the prices, supposed to be for road maintenance and such....

The roads are so bad that I feel that I'm always going through an obstacle course every day.

One particular pothole was so bad that even at low speed, with passengers, I ended up touching the ground with the axel, and that was trying to go around it.
 
2013-05-15 01:56:58 PM
Only wish electric cars had more range and would be more affordable.   Would love to tell Big Oil to suck it.
 
2013-05-15 01:58:12 PM
assets.rollingstone.com

"So some of my friends started to call me 'Two-Phones'..."

/Arthur 'Two-Phones' Jackson
 
2013-05-15 01:59:12 PM
Yeah, nothing's gonna happen. They might get fined billions of dollars, but that's nothing to them and it will continue to be business as usual.

Hey, I've got an idea: let's stop burning oil as soon as we can.
 
2013-05-15 01:59:39 PM
Are they having the IRS attack these companies ?
 
2013-05-15 01:59:46 PM

LessO2: Only wish electric cars had more range and would be more affordable.   Would love to tell Big Oil to suck it.


Big Coal isn't exactly unhappy about the prospect either :)
 
2013-05-15 02:00:22 PM
A LOT of people are going to die before anything gets done about them.  Parasites only survive if the host body can support their appetite.
 
2013-05-15 02:00:51 PM
And just like in the US after all the hoopla, nothing will have changed.
 
2013-05-15 02:00:53 PM

LessO2: Only wish electric cars had more range and would be more affordable.   Would love to tell Big Oil to suck it.


There are diesel power generations in many areas....  So your admonition to "suck it" probably doesn't hold much weight.  :D
 
2013-05-15 02:04:13 PM

Cubicle Jockey: Oh god... the Tom Friedman Article Generator he linked to in one of his earlier articles is farking GENIUS.

http://thomasfriedmanopedgenerator.com/


This Ain't Yogurt.
 
2013-05-15 02:04:22 PM
Don't expect to see this in America, where Congress is a wholly-own subsidiary of the oil industry.
 
2013-05-15 02:06:09 PM
...because there "may" be some reason why oil is above $90/barrel when it was under $50 for years.

despite the glut of resources and more gas efficiency


/things that make you say, hmm...
 
2013-05-15 02:06:18 PM
Something, something, something....... the hot oil hitting the anus?
 
2013-05-15 02:07:11 PM
The oil markets are rigged, and water is wet.  Film at eleven.

img.photobucket.com
 
2013-05-15 02:07:14 PM

LessO2: Only wish electric cars had more range and would be more affordable.   Would love to tell Big Oil to suck it.


I did that just after the new year. It's awesome.

/solar powered since mid 2012, so the electric utility can suck it too.
 
2013-05-15 02:07:34 PM

PunGent: LessO2: Only wish electric cars had more range and would be more affordable.   Would love to tell Big Oil to suck it.

Big Coal isn't exactly unhappy about the prospect either :)


Timothy Mitchell argues the way coal is produced and transported led to the creation of truly democratic states, while the way oil is produced and transported has enabled new forms of authoritarianism - so go big coal I guess  :) http://www.amazon.com/Carbon-Democracy-Political-Power-Age/dp/1781681 1 63/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1368203156&sr=1-1&keywords=carbon+de mocracy
 
2013-05-15 02:08:41 PM

cwolf20: Still no word on why gas stations surrounding Louisville, KY cost 80 cents less than gas stations in downtown Louisville


The gas where I live is 20 cents cheaper than in Louisville.
/Then again I live in small shiatty town.
 
2013-05-15 02:09:37 PM

iheartscotch: I've always wondered why we don't have price controls on oil and gas. We are, more or less, a captive market.


Because the best long-interest is to control them by making them high, driving innovation.  Making gasoline $8/gallon by imposing a huge tax and using the tax to invest in infrastructure would be a huge boon to society -- AFTER about a decade of serious pain, so no politician could even jokingly suggest it without being blacklisted from office.  People suggest controls to make energy artificially cheap, but that only encourages waste.

And hell if we're a captive market.  The people complaining the loudest about fuel prices use way more than they need and scoff at any attempts to reduce consumption as part of the liberal "let's all move back into caves" agenda.  Hell, I live in an uber-liberal state that uses a lot of heating oil, which impacts gasoline prices.  The same people biatching about how oil prices are killing them think turning the thermostat below 70F is prison camp treatment, and half the vehicles on the road are full-size SUVs.
 
2013-05-15 02:11:02 PM
...and it ain't just rigged at the crude level either.  Gas prices are rigged worse.
 
2013-05-15 02:11:46 PM

rogue49: ...because there "may" be some reason why oil is above $90/barrel when it was under $50 for years.

despite the glut of resources and more gas efficiency


/things that make you say, hmm...


It's almost as if there was a large populous country with a growing demand for the stuff...http://au.businessinsider.com/no-chinese-hard-landing-2013-5
 
2013-05-15 02:13:32 PM
They can't understand why gas stations don't drop their prices quickly? It's called "profit". And in the U.S., gas stations check what the nearby prices are -- no need to collude when you're basing your prices on what the competition is publishing.
 
2013-05-15 02:13:41 PM
Yeah right, next thing they'll proclaim is the insurance industry is completely rigged. Ridiculous.
 
2013-05-15 02:14:03 PM

Rapmaster2000: cwolf20: Still no word on why gas stations surrounding Louisville, KY cost 80 cents less than gas stations in downtown Louisville

The same reason office space in surrounding Louisville costs less per sq. ft. than office space in downtown Louisville.


Because Louisville is evil and must be punished.
 
2013-05-15 02:14:13 PM

imfallen_angel: Next to be looked into should be the taxes on gas, which consist of 75% (or more) of the prices, supposed to be for road maintenance and such....

The roads are so bad that I feel that I'm always going through an obstacle course every day.

One particular pothole was so bad that even at low speed, with passengers, I ended up touching the ground with the axel, and that was trying to go around it.


75%? Are you sure about that? (I mean, you live in Canada according to your profile.)

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-05-15 02:15:23 PM
images.bookrenter.com
 
2013-05-15 02:19:01 PM
Doesn't OPEC set "basic" pricing?
 
2013-05-15 02:19:36 PM

meanyogurt: It's almost as if there was a large populous country with a growing demand for the stuff...http://au.businessinsider.com/no-chinese-hard-landing-2013-5


As taken from your link - people should be very, very concerned with this growth. Unless you're investing in oil futures/oil companies, this is going to really negatively impact US transportation fuel prices in the coming years.
static.businessinsider.com
Affordable, off-the-shelf solutions to avoid this are available in showrooms and stores today.
 
2013-05-15 02:20:14 PM
www.duramaxforum.com

/Sorry
 
2013-05-15 02:21:42 PM

Charlie Chingas: Walker: Is this the final countdown?

No, this is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o2ufv_c0xI


No, this is and will always be the final Final Countdown.

/there are NO good versions of that gawdawful song
 
2013-05-15 02:23:20 PM
Meh ... even at $6-7/gallon, gas is cheap ... and I'll still be running my V8 :)

In fact, please bring back the high gas prices of summer 2008 ... I miss how empty the roads become and how my commute is so much less stressful as well.

badges.fuelly.com
 
2013-05-15 02:27:13 PM

dv-ous: 75%? Are you sure about that? (I mean, you live in Canada according to your profile.)


There's the basic tax of the gas, which is what your graphic shows.

But then they had other taxes (federal taxes, sale taxes, excise taxes, transit tax, good and service taxes, then provincial taxes).

Here's a quick search that shows a perspective... maybe not 75%, but damn high enough to have a serious impact... and it varies greatly from Province to Province.

http://www.bcgasprices.com/can_tax_info.aspx

http://retail.petro-canada.ca/en/fuelsavings/2139.aspx
 
2013-05-15 02:28:59 PM
As a run commuter all I can do is look down my nose at you poor shiatty Prius drivers and your ridiculous carbon footprints. I hope big oil continues to fark all of you in the ass - you deserve it for your wanton destruction of mother earth.
 
2013-05-15 02:30:08 PM

imfallen_angel: dv-ous: 75%? Are you sure about that? (I mean, you live in Canada according to your profile.)

There's the basic tax of the gas, which is what your graphic shows.

But then they had other taxes (federal taxes, sale taxes, excise taxes, transit tax, good and service taxes, then provincial taxes).

Here's a quick search that shows a perspective... maybe not 75%, but damn high enough to have a serious impact... and it varies greatly from Province to Province.

http://www.bcgasprices.com/can_tax_info.aspx

http://retail.petro-canada.ca/en/fuelsavings/2139.aspx


You chart shows, in the highest province/area in Canada, that tax only accounts for 71c per gallon.  Uh, last time I checked, gas was trending here in cheap, old America at $3.80/gallon, which means that 71/380 = ~19% of the cost ...

You missed it by a factor of nearly 4 ... :facepalm:

ayearofholidays.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-05-15 02:30:32 PM
Yea, good luck with that Europe.
 
2013-05-15 02:32:34 PM

Elzar: As a run commuter all I can do is look down my nose at you poor shiatty Prius drivers and your ridiculous carbon footprints. I hope big oil continues to fark all of you in the ass - you deserve it for your wanton destruction of mother earth.


i1.cpcache.com
 
2013-05-15 02:36:46 PM
i.imgur.com

The only news here is that someone in the Government is investigating it.

I did hear on the news this morning that the U.S. is rising to #2 in oil production... too bad we don't do something to restrict exports because it doesn't matter one fark until we do.
 
2013-05-15 02:36:55 PM

dkimball: Doesn't OPEC set "basic" pricing?


Not directly.  They manipulate pricing by controlling the supply/production.
 
2013-05-15 02:37:30 PM
Hope the EU fines them to oblivion. That might maybe make my govt. finally consider thorium.
 
2013-05-15 02:38:01 PM

Elzar: As a run commuter all I can do is look down my nose at you poor shiatty Prius drivers and your ridiculous carbon footprints. I hope big oil continues to fark all of you in the ass - you deserve it for your wanton destruction of mother earth.


I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of getting to work not smelling like Chewbacca's armpits.
 
2013-05-15 02:38:01 PM

dragonchild: iheartscotch: I've always wondered why we don't have price controls on oil and gas. We are, more or less, a captive market.

Because the best long-interest is to control them by making them high, driving innovation.  Making gasoline $8/gallon by imposing a huge tax and using the tax to invest in infrastructure would be a huge boon to society -- AFTER about a decade of serious pain, so no politician could even jokingly suggest it without being blacklisted from office.  People suggest controls to make energy artificially cheap, but that only encourages waste.

And hell if we're a captive market.  The people complaining the loudest about fuel prices use way more than they need and scoff at any attempts to reduce consumption as part of the liberal "let's all move back into caves" agenda.  Hell, I live in an uber-liberal state that uses a lot of heating oil, which impacts gasoline prices.  The same people biatching about how oil prices are killing them think turning the thermostat below 70F is prison camp treatment, and half the vehicles on the road are full-size SUVs.


Load of crap, Europe has imposed high taxes for a very long time and it has led to nothing. Nothing beyond total government implication and control will change the situation.
 
2013-05-15 02:40:56 PM

stuffy: And just like in the US after all the hoopla, nothing will have changed.


Europe has a much longer and mucgh more effective history of revolution than the USA, and most of the states in the EU have a much more diverse and dynamic party system. Also, the nationalism in the members states of the EU is still very strong, so even if England and Germany resist change, other states can psuh them around. There are all the necessary reasons for change to happen.
 
2013-05-15 02:42:05 PM
Article is about 50% correct.

The Saudis have been jacking the price of oil for years, by shoveling money under the table to terrorist groups, and no one does anything about it.

The press doesn't report it for $ome rea$on or another.
 
2013-05-15 02:42:07 PM

seadoo2006: imfallen_angel: dv-ous: 75%? Are you sure about that? (I mean, you live in Canada according to your profile.)

There's the basic tax of the gas, which is what your graphic shows.

But then they had other taxes (federal taxes, sale taxes, excise taxes, transit tax, good and service taxes, then provincial taxes).

Here's a quick search that shows a perspective... maybe not 75%, but damn high enough to have a serious impact... and it varies greatly from Province to Province.

http://www.bcgasprices.com/can_tax_info.aspx

http://retail.petro-canada.ca/en/fuelsavings/2139.aspx

You chart shows, in the highest province/area in Canada, that tax only accounts for 71c per gallon.  Uh, last time I checked, gas was trending here in cheap, old America at $3.80/gallon, which means that 71/380 = ~19% of the cost ...

You missed it by a factor of nearly 4 ... :facepalm:

[ayearofholidays.files.wordpress.com image 600x423]


psstt.. that's per litre...not gallons.

You might need to recalculate things.
 
2013-05-15 02:42:59 PM
Most markets are rigged

/ftfy
 
2013-05-15 02:44:21 PM

Dr Dreidel: Elzar: As a run commuter all I can do is look down my nose at you poor shiatty Prius drivers and your ridiculous carbon footprints. I hope big oil continues to fark all of you in the ass - you deserve it for your wanton destruction of mother earth.

I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of getting to work not smelling like Chewbacca's armpits.


Your corporate campus doesn't have showers? What kind of blue-collar shiathole do you work in?
 
2013-05-15 02:45:53 PM

dv-ous: imfallen_angel: Next to be looked into should be the taxes on gas, which consist of 75% (or more) of the prices, supposed to be for road maintenance and such....

The roads are so bad that I feel that I'm always going through an obstacle course every day.

One particular pothole was so bad that even at low speed, with passengers, I ended up touching the ground with the axel, and that was trying to go around it.

75%? Are you sure about that? (I mean, you live in Canada according to your profile.)

[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x874]


Mexico pays you to buy gas? Cool!
 
2013-05-15 02:46:23 PM

Lando Lincoln: Yeah, nothing's gonna happen. They might get fined billions of dollars, but that's nothing to them and it will continue to be business as usual.

Hey, I've got an idea: let's stop burning oil as soon as we can.


Yes because all the people involved will go wash the feet of lepers becuase they can no longer make money in oil.
 
2013-05-15 02:46:23 PM

imfallen_angel: seadoo2006: imfallen_angel: dv-ous: 75%? Are you sure about that? (I mean, you live in Canada according to your profile.)

There's the basic tax of the gas, which is what your graphic shows.

But then they had other taxes (federal taxes, sale taxes, excise taxes, transit tax, good and service taxes, then provincial taxes).

Here's a quick search that shows a perspective... maybe not 75%, but damn high enough to have a serious impact... and it varies greatly from Province to Province.

http://www.bcgasprices.com/can_tax_info.aspx

http://retail.petro-canada.ca/en/fuelsavings/2139.aspx

You chart shows, in the highest province/area in Canada, that tax only accounts for 71c per gallon.  Uh, last time I checked, gas was trending here in cheap, old America at $3.80/gallon, which means that 71/380 = ~19% of the cost ...

You missed it by a factor of nearly 4 ... :facepalm:

[ayearofholidays.files.wordpress.com image 600x423]

psstt.. that's per litre...not gallons.

You might need to recalculate things.


Ah shiat ...

kellsmurthwaite.files.wordpress.com

I retract what I said, haha.
 
2013-05-15 02:50:21 PM

imfallen_angel: Next to be looked into should be the taxes on gas, which consist of 75% (or more) of the prices, supposed to be for road maintenance and such....

The roads are so bad that I feel that I'm always going through an obstacle course every day.

One particular pothole was so bad that even at low speed, with passengers, I ended up touching the ground with the axel, and that was trying to go around it.


You must live in Ontario. You are right. the pot holes are so bad that the other day I hit one and my hub cap bounced right off.
 
2013-05-15 02:51:52 PM

God-is-a-Taco: Why yes, it's national treasure Matt Taibbi.
I'll never understand the Rolling Stone thing.


For a certain type of journalist, "Hunter S. Thompson's old gig" is a powerful draw.

Taibbi fills that niche rather well.
 
2013-05-15 02:54:28 PM

God-is-a-Taco: Why yes, it's national treasure Matt Taibbi.
I'll never understand the Rolling Stone thing.


You don't understand actual reporting? You trust only Fox? What?
 
2013-05-15 02:56:50 PM

Elzar: Dr Dreidel: Elzar: As a run commuter all I can do is look down my nose at you poor shiatty Prius drivers and your ridiculous carbon footprints. I hope big oil continues to fark all of you in the ass - you deserve it for your wanton destruction of mother earth.

I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of getting to work not smelling like Chewbacca's armpits.

Your corporate campus doesn't have showers? What kind of blue-collar shiathole do you work in?


An office building in Crystal City, down the block from the Pentagon? (One of two, actually, and AFAIK, neither has a gym.)

// I was snarking on you - a bit of light joshing, based on the runners I knew from other jobs
// I work with lots of military folk, some of whom run on their lunch hours - I assume there's a shower somewhere, as the LT doesn't generally smell like the ass-end of a Taco Bell grease trap
 
2013-05-15 03:00:11 PM

Astorix: imfallen_angel: Next to be looked into should be the taxes on gas, which consist of 75% (or more) of the prices, supposed to be for road maintenance and such....

The roads are so bad that I feel that I'm always going through an obstacle course every day.

One particular pothole was so bad that even at low speed, with passengers, I ended up touching the ground with the axel, and that was trying to go around it.

You must live in Ontario. You are right. the pot holes are so bad that the other day I hit one and my hub cap bounced right off.


Capital area.... so I cross from side to side every day.

Both side are almost just as bad in some areas but the Quebec side it's more pronounced as in potholes are everywhere. At least in Ottawa, it's more localized.
 
2013-05-15 03:00:20 PM
But remember, these are job creators here in the United States, who need tax cuts to somehow keep their prices down.  There's no way this rent-seeking behavior could have catastrophic net-costs to an energy dependent economy, right?  It's not like oil price is a fundamental component of inflation in this country.  At all.
 
2013-05-15 03:01:52 PM

LessO2: Only wish electric cars had more range and would be more affordable.   Would love to tell Big Oil to suck it.


They'll get there. Electrics are a lot more accessible today than they were 5 years ago, and I'd bet they'll make similar progress (or better) in the next 5 years.
 
2013-05-15 03:02:16 PM
I think I know a part of this one.

Why is oil $90 instead of $50? Because smart producers know they can get $90 and sell less per year therefore making their limited resource last longer at that higher price.

What I don't get is the push for natural gas drilling right now. It's an over supplied product and industry should be focused on increasing demand. Unless I'm just reading it wrong and they know something I don't.
 
2013-05-15 03:03:18 PM

Pick: It's supply and demand. Remember that, Citizen. Now run along, and go about your business.


Why do Europeans hate the Free Market?
 
2013-05-15 03:03:57 PM
Lord Oakeshott, former Liberal Democrat Treasury spokesman, said the alleged rigging of oil prices was "as serious as rigging Libor"

Well that's not saying much.  Rigging libor, which consisted of banks underestimating their own borrowing costs (with a wink and a nod of regulators) during the financial crisis, and traders in other times nudging it up or down a basis point to improve their own bottom lines relative to other traders, wasn't remotely as serious as finance illiterates (like Lord Oakeshott apparently) think it was.  For every saver who gained or lost a few dollars in interest based on 'rigging', there was a borrower who gained or lost those dollars.   If you had an adjustable rate loan during the financial crisis, you benefited from the 'rigging'.  Conversely, if you were in derivative position that would benefit from rates going up, you lost.   The parties involved should be disciplined, and the process itself should be reformed, but the actual net gain/loss to society was pretty immaterial.

Oil companies illegally rigging prices would, in fact, be a serious deal.  However, given that this was written in Rolling Stone we can safely assume that it is complete nonsense.
 
2013-05-15 03:10:25 PM

Elzar: As a run commuter all I can do is look down my nose at you poor shiatty Prius drivers and your ridiculous carbon footprints. I hope big oil continues to fark all of you in the ass - you deserve it for your wanton destruction of mother earth.


As a telecommuter all I can do is look down my nose at you poor shiatty runners and your ridiculous carbon footprints of running shoe manufacturers. I hope big oil continues to fark all of you in the ass - you deserve it for your wanton destruction of mother earth.

Just so you can see what an ass you sound like.
 
2013-05-15 03:12:43 PM

Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: God-is-a-Taco: Why yes, it's national treasure Matt Taibbi.
I'll never understand the Rolling Stone thing.

You don't understand actual reporting? You trust only Fox? What?


What I meant was that it's a rather odd choice of avenue for real journalism.
Although, I suppose I'm implying that he had a choice, it could just be that the other news organizations don't want anyone questioning their shareholders.
 
2013-05-15 03:16:31 PM
cdn.hark.com

/So it's a *profit* deal!!!
 
2013-05-15 03:17:27 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: Lord Oakeshott, former Liberal Democrat Treasury spokesman, said the alleged rigging of oil prices was "as serious as rigging Libor"

Well that's not saying much.  Rigging libor, which consisted of banks underestimating their own borrowing costs (with a wink and a nod of regulators) during the financial crisis, and traders in other times nudging it up or down a basis point to improve their own bottom lines relative to other traders, wasn't remotely as serious as finance illiterates (like Lord Oakeshott apparently) think it was.  For every saver who gained or lost a few dollars in interest based on 'rigging', there was a borrower who gained or lost those dollars.   If you had an adjustable rate loan during the financial crisis, you benefited from the 'rigging'.  Conversely, if you were in derivative position that would benefit from rates going up, you lost.   The parties involved should be disciplined, and the process itself should be reformed, but the actual net gain/loss to society was pretty immaterial.

Oil companies illegally rigging prices would, in fact, be a serious deal.  However, given that this was written in Rolling Stone we can safely assume that it is complete nonsense.


Yeah, we all need to get our news from Fox, that way we can be demonstrably more wrong about the news than anyone else. Or, we could listen to booger-eating trolls like you with internet GEDs in economics.
 
2013-05-15 03:25:28 PM

Cubicle Jockey: Oh god... the Tom Friedman Article Generator he linked to in one of his earlier articles is farking GENIUS.

http://thomasfriedmanopedgenerator.com/


I LOL'd.
 
2013-05-15 03:31:25 PM
RIGGER, please.
 
2013-05-15 03:31:57 PM
Oil companies are vertically oriented. From exploration to the pump. Why did anyone think that the oil oligarchy wouldn't collude to fix prices? The member companies' very structures means they are trying to fix prices.
 
2013-05-15 03:32:01 PM
I hear Chase may have need of upper management if it doesn't work out robbing the people of Europe blind.
 
2013-05-15 03:44:31 PM
Yup, I know where this is headed.

Then, oil becomes so scarce that we're suddenly fighting off the Chinese that are trying to get Alaska, and then get the US annexes Canada.

images2.wikia.nocookie.net

/Good thing my cushy job in Vault-Tec has me covered
 
2013-05-15 03:54:37 PM

seadoo2006: imfallen_angel: seadoo2006: imfallen_angel: dv-ous: 75%? Are you sure about that? (I mean, you live in Canada according to your profile.)

There's the basic tax of the gas, which is what your graphic shows.

But then they had other taxes (federal taxes, sale taxes, excise taxes, transit tax, good and service taxes, then provincial taxes).

Here's a quick search that shows a perspective... maybe not 75%, but damn high enough to have a serious impact... and it varies greatly from Province to Province.

http://www.bcgasprices.com/can_tax_info.aspx

http://retail.petro-canada.ca/en/fuelsavings/2139.aspx

You chart shows, in the highest province/area in Canada, that tax only accounts for 71c per gallon.  Uh, last time I checked, gas was trending here in cheap, old America at $3.80/gallon, which means that 71/380 = ~19% of the cost ...

You missed it by a factor of nearly 4 ... :facepalm:

[ayearofholidays.files.wordpress.com image 600x423]

psstt.. that's per litre...not gallons.

You might need to recalculate things.

Ah shiat ...

[kellsmurthwaite.files.wordpress.com image 210x234]

I retract what I said, haha.


You didn't happen to work on a NASA project to Mars a while back, did you?
 
2013-05-15 03:56:04 PM

iheartscotch: I've always wondered why we don't have price controls on oil and gas. We are, more or less, a captive market.

I mean, we've got price controls in agriculture and many other areas; but, not in the most important area to the economy.


Price controls to keep prices LOW inevitably results in shortages.

Agriculture has price controls to keep them high.
 
2013-05-15 03:58:20 PM

TenJed_77: Load of crap, Europe has imposed high taxes for a very long time and it has led to nothing.


America isn't Europe, and as an American I'm reminded of it constantly.
 
2013-05-15 04:00:34 PM

wildcardjack: I think I know a part of this one.

Why is oil $90 instead of $50? Because smart producers know they can get $90 and sell less per year therefore making their limited resource last longer at that higher price.

What I don't get is the push for natural gas drilling right now. It's an over supplied product and industry should be focused on increasing demand. Unless I'm just reading it wrong and they know something I don't.


They are focusing on increasing demand - NG power plants are being built like crazy right now.

Thing is, they take time to build.  It's not like they come from China in pretty boxes after some doof in a turtleneck announces them a month before.
 
2013-05-15 04:06:01 PM

God-is-a-Taco: Why yes, it's national treasure Matt Taibbi.
I'll never understand the Rolling Stone thing.


the "thing" is the major news outlets are all owned by Wall st and Big Business. they don't bother investigating or reporting on such things until they're full blown public spectacle and then they get a small blurb while we move on to what Honey Boo Boo's mom is wearing at her wedding.

EVERYTHING IS RIGGED includes public information
 
2013-05-15 04:06:51 PM

que.guero: As someone who just paid $6.27 a gallon today, I am getting a kick out of all these replies.


That came with a blow, right?
 
2013-05-15 04:08:49 PM

dragonchild: TenJed_77: Load of crap, Europe has imposed high taxes for a very long time and it has led to nothing.

America isn't Europe, and as an American I'm reminded of it constantly.


Go move there then.  Europe is hardly a panacea of anything at all.  Hey, maybe those Germans can start killing everybody else again while you're there.
 
2013-05-15 04:14:36 PM
From the first article...
"Moreover, it's increasingly clear that both the criminal justice system and the civil courts may be impotent to stop them, even when they do get caught working together to game the system."
-=-
 Because they hold all the money that makes the world go around, they will crash the system if you fark with them.
So I say...

imageshack.us
 
rka
2013-05-15 04:20:09 PM

lilbjorn: Don't expect to see this in America, where Congress is a wholly-own subsidiary of the oil industry.


Yeah, it's not like BP and Royal Dutch Shell have any deep seated ties to European governments...at all.
 
2013-05-15 04:32:09 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: The parties involved should be disciplined, and the process itself should be reformed, but the actual net gain/loss to society was pretty immaterial.



Just like bank robbery. The loss is covered by insurance, and the coverers of the policies will individually be out only a couple of cents, so who cares?
 
2013-05-15 04:33:20 PM
Sorry, not coverers... subscribers.
 
2013-05-15 04:40:05 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: However, given that this was written in Rolling Stone we can safely assume that it is complete nonsense.


They were quoting The Guardian

You

shiat

sorcerer.
 
2013-05-15 05:07:54 PM

attila the hun's space age techno-babble: PunGent: LessO2: Only wish electric cars had more range and would be more affordable.   Would love to tell Big Oil to suck it.

Big Coal isn't exactly unhappy about the prospect either :)

Timothy Mitchell argues the way coal is produced and transported led to the creation of truly democratic states, while the way oil is produced and transported has enabled new forms of authoritarianism - so go big coal I guess  :) http://www.amazon.com/Carbon-Democracy-Political-Power-Age/dp/1781681 1 63/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1368203156&sr=1-1&keywords=carbon+de mocracy


Huh...never heard that argument before.

Good book?
 
2013-05-15 05:09:01 PM

Hobodeluxe: God-is-a-Taco: Why yes, it's national treasure Matt Taibbi.
I'll never understand the Rolling Stone thing.

the "thing" is the major news outlets are all owned by Wall st and Big Business. they don't bother investigating or reporting on such things until they're full blown public spectacle and then they get a small blurb while we move on to what Honey Boo Boo's mom is wearing at her wedding.

EVERYTHING IS RIGGED includes public information


If everything is rigged, why is the AP acting so butthurt over what they should expect by now?

/maybe it's all part of the show
 
2013-05-15 05:13:00 PM

Shazam999: Go move there then. Europe is hardly a panacea of anything at all.


Wow, it's almost like various countries do some things better than others, and some things worse than others.  In fact, I bet some countries in Europe do things differently from other countries in Europe. . . nah.  That would make life too complicated for you to understand, so it must not be true.
 
2013-05-15 05:38:42 PM

rogue49: ...because there "may" be some reason why oil is above $90/barrel when it was under $50 for years.

despite the glut of resources and more gas efficiency


/things that make you say, hmm...


Pfft, like anything's going to come of this. Kudos to whoever took this plunge, but nothing's going to change yet.

/Hopefully I'm wrong, but still.
 
2013-05-15 06:02:49 PM

dv-ous: imfallen_angel: Next to be looked into should be the taxes on gas, which consist of 75% (or more) of the prices, supposed to be for road maintenance and such....

The roads are so bad that I feel that I'm always going through an obstacle course every day.

One particular pothole was so bad that even at low speed, with passengers, I ended up touching the ground with the axel, and that was trying to go around it.

75%? Are you sure about that? (I mean, you live in Canada according to your profile.)

[upload.wikimedia.org image 850x874]


Turkey govt really gobble  gobble gobbles those fuel taxes
 
2013-05-15 07:01:56 PM

Bennie Crabtree: Europe has a much longer and mucgh more effective history of revolution than the USA,


How are you defining "effective"?
 
2013-05-15 07:32:58 PM

stuffy: And just like in the US after all the hoopla, nothing will have changed.


Indeed. Theater, nothing more.

/ make billions, get fined millions, no one goes to jail... why the fark shouldn't they do it?
 
2013-05-15 07:41:38 PM
When markets are left to police themselves ... they're cordoned off to everybody else.
 
2013-05-15 07:42:40 PM

CygnusDarius: Yup, I know where this is headed.

Then, oil becomes so scarce that we're suddenly fighting off the Chinese that are trying to get Alaska, and then get the US annexes Canada.

[images2.wikia.nocookie.net image 770x512]

/Good thing my cushy job in Vault-Tec has me covered


img405.imageshack.us
 
2013-05-15 08:03:39 PM
Yes, regardless of what libertardians think, unregulated industries ALWAYS end up screwing people over.
 
2013-05-15 08:53:27 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: Lord Oakeshott, former Liberal Democrat Treasury spokesman, said the alleged rigging of oil prices was "as serious as rigging Libor"

Well that's not saying much.  Rigging libor, which consisted of banks underestimating their own borrowing costs (with a wink and a nod of regulators) during the financial crisis, and traders in other times nudging it up or down a basis point to improve their own bottom lines relative to other traders, wasn't remotely as serious as finance illiterates (like Lord Oakeshott apparently) think it was.  For every saver who gained or lost a few dollars in interest based on 'rigging', there was a borrower who gained or lost those dollars.   If you had an adjustable rate loan during the financial crisis, you benefited from the 'rigging'.  Conversely, if you were in derivative position that would benefit from rates going up, you lost.   The parties involved should be disciplined, and the process itself should be reformed, but the actual net gain/loss to society was pretty immaterial.

Oil companies illegally rigging prices would, in fact, be a serious deal.  However, given that this was written in Rolling Stone we can safely assume that it is complete nonsense.


Wow...I knew you liked sucking the corporate cock, but you're flat-out wrong about both Libor and Rolling Stone.
 
2013-05-15 09:13:13 PM
Am I the only one that the noticed the article said nothing specific? Other than a raid, why am I supposed to be mad?
 
2013-05-15 09:51:10 PM

PunGent: attila the hun's space age techno-babble: PunGent: LessO2: Only wish electric cars had more range and would be more affordable.   Would love to tell Big Oil to suck it.

Big Coal isn't exactly unhappy about the prospect either :)

Timothy Mitchell argues the way coal is produced and transported led to the creation of truly democratic states, while the way oil is produced and transported has enabled new forms of authoritarianism - so go big coal I guess  :) http://www.amazon.com/Carbon-Democracy-Political-Power-Age/dp/1781681 1 63/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1368203156&sr=1-1&keywords=carbon+de mocracy

Huh...never heard that argument before.

Good book?


Yeah, great book. With coal, he argues workers had the ability to cut the flow of global energy at multiple points, which gave them far more leverage than ever before. He argues Winston Churchill was key to replacing coal with oil in the Royal Navy because he feared that workers strikes could cripple the war effort during and just after WWI. Since oil requires far fewer workers to extract, oil companies had to make far fewer concessions to the working class. Instead, they made concessions to the nationalist governments that controlled the oil (at least after the 40s), which were often deeply unpopular and authoritarian.
 
2013-05-15 11:17:03 PM

Lando Lincoln: Yeah, nothing's gonna happen. They might get fined billions of dollars, but that's nothing to them and it will continue to be business as usual.

Hey, I've got an idea: let's stop burning oil as soon as we can.


No they will simply move onto the next scam.

 These people need to be put into prison...at the very least.
 
2013-05-16 01:12:50 AM
Rush Limburger will beg to differ.
 
2013-05-16 09:56:19 AM

attila the hun's space age techno-babble: PunGent: attila the hun's space age techno-babble: PunGent: LessO2: Only wish electric cars had more range and would be more affordable.   Would love to tell Big Oil to suck it.

Big Coal isn't exactly unhappy about the prospect either :)

Timothy Mitchell argues the way coal is produced and transported led to the creation of truly democratic states, while the way oil is produced and transported has enabled new forms of authoritarianism - so go big coal I guess  :) http://www.amazon.com/Carbon-Democracy-Political-Power-Age/dp/1781681 1 63/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1368203156&sr=1-1&keywords=carbon+de mocracy

Huh...never heard that argument before.

Good book?

Yeah, great book. With coal, he argues workers had the ability to cut the flow of global energy at multiple points, which gave them far more leverage than ever before. He argues Winston Churchill was key to replacing coal with oil in the Royal Navy because he feared that workers strikes could cripple the war effort during and just after WWI. Since oil requires far fewer workers to extract, oil companies had to make far fewer concessions to the working class. Instead, they made concessions to the nationalist governments that controlled the oil (at least after the 40s), which were often deeply unpopular and authoritarian.


Interesting, I'll have to check it out.  But I hope the author acknowledges it's not the ONLY argument for switching from coal to oil for ships...energy density is very important, especially for naval vessels.
 
2013-05-16 11:22:07 AM
Having worked for 2 of those 3 oil companies... I can say, they should be able to find plenty of proof... Considering they found it before, fined them a small amount, and the company promised to clean up its act.

And didn't.
 
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