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(International Business Times)   Columbia University has finally decided that its "whites-only" scholarship is a bad idea   (ibtimes.com) divider line 505
    More: Obvious, Columbia University, scholarships, white people, Trust  
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10342 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 May 2013 at 2:37 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-15 07:58:46 PM  

ProfessorOhki: rewind2846: About keeping his hands on the steering wheel when pulled over by a cop, about how to make sure you take your hood off whenever you enter a store and how they will watch your every move, about how much harder he will have to work in school and afterward than his white classmates just to stay on par with them, about all the ins and outs and etiquette that he must navigate if he wants to stay safe and out of prison in this country. It helped that his father was a cop and later a corrections officer.

As we spoke to him I found myself wishing that we did not have to do this, to talk to him about these things. I'm sure this is not a conversation that white parents have with their children, and I wished that this were so with him. But it isn't, and so as my father told me, we told him.

Funny, I heard both, "keep hands on the steering wheel when pulled over, don't reach for registration until asked" and "don't obscure your face in a bank" as a kid. Maybe it just a matter of having parents who don't want you to end up in potentially dangerous and wholly avoidable situations? Never got the "you'll have to work harder in school" one though. Got the "you're a smart kid, go do a good job" one instead... Which is good; the former would have probably put me in a depressed mindset and made me question if school was even worth it.


Yeah, that's funny. I'm white and my parents had talks with me about the steering wheel thing and the no hats in banks thing. They also went for heavy lectures on the etiquette for dealing with cops and staying out of jail, as well as the fact that if it ever came down to my word against a girl's, I was going the be the one in all the trouble.

Now granted, I never got the "people will look at you like you're stealing because of your race" talk. But I did get the "you can't go onto this side of town, or there, or there, because people will rob and/or assault you because you are white" talk.

What I'm saying is that I thought talks like these were what parenting is all about - letting you child know about the specific social dangers inherent to their biology they they won't even think about as children.

Maybe I just had exceptional parents, but I thought most parents did this for their kids at some point.
 
2013-05-15 08:02:06 PM  

Infernalist: If you're angry, blame our older generations for being retarded.


i do, by blasting NWA into the windows of old folks homes.
 
2013-05-15 08:02:10 PM  

Bumblefark: Well, then let's keep the conversation going. Please point me to the law that apportions enrollment slots to less capable students, based on their skin color.


Don't be silly, it's not a law, it's a check box.  Look at the enrollment statistics for any college you like and there's your evidence.

I'll tell you what, I'll even make it easy on you.  I bet you can't find a single University program, undergraduate, MD, JD, PhD, etc., where it doesn't matter what race or sex you are, the statistics (GPA, SAT, GRE, MCAT, LSAT, etc) are the same.  I bet you can't find one.
 
2013-05-15 08:04:14 PM  
When I see black CEO's running the world i'll get upset. This is a non story.
 
2013-05-15 08:06:26 PM  

lennavan: I'll tell you what, I'll even make it easy on you.  I bet you can't find a single University program, undergraduate, MD, JD, PhD, etc., where it doesn't matter what race or sex you are, the statistics (GPA, SAT, GRE, MCAT, LSAT, etc) are the same.  I bet you can't find one.


uh... pull the analysis down to just the bachelor's degree and include 'chinese nationals' and similar in your grad. school analysis/argument. then, hand your fellowship to the chinese kid next to you who's getting 10kUSD a year more than you from his government. then blame someone else for the fact that the US is slipping in STEM'ish jobs.

poor whites and black need to bumrush da system.
 
2013-05-15 08:07:24 PM  

utah dude: uh... pull the analysis down to just the bachelor's degree and include 'chinese nationals' and similar in your grad. school analysis/argument. then, hand your fellowship to the chinese kid next to you who's getting 10kUSD a year more than you from his government. then blame someone else for the fact that the US is slipping in STEM'ish jobs.

poor whites and black need to bumrush da system.


grr. s/his/his or her/
s/black/blacks/
 
2013-05-15 08:08:10 PM  

Mr.Man: When I see black CEO's running the world i'll get upset. This is a non story.


It used to be "president" and "free world".

Time are-a-changin.
 
2013-05-15 08:11:24 PM  

super_grass: Mr.Man: When I see black CEO's running the world i'll get upset. This is a non story.

It used to be "president" and "free world".

Time are-a-changin.


i don't care what color/sexual orientation my CEO is as long as we're all kicking ass together tryin' to squash china, etc. forsure. people, it's not about skin color or sex or age or money, it's about america and trying to kick some ass. stop being weenies and get on the ball.
 
2013-05-15 08:33:57 PM  
i1.kym-cdn.com
 
2013-05-15 08:34:09 PM  

TigersorHawksorBoth: As someone who holds degrees from both Iowa and Columbia, I'm getting a kick out of...


So did you apply for the scholarship?

/also from Iowa
 
2013-05-15 08:38:08 PM  

The Angry Hand of God:


Wrong thread?

[checks the china goo thread]

Wrong thread.
 
2013-05-15 08:39:25 PM  

BigNumber12: Bumblefark: Well, then let's keep the conversation going. Please point me to the law that apportions enrollment slots to less capable students, based on their skin color.

Your careful wording is technically accurate - because of pushback like that in Regents of the University of California v. Bakke, Universities, supported by the Supreme Court (Grutter v. Bollinger), have been very careful to obfuscate and portray their selection methods as "complex," so as to avoid providing physical evidence of a quota system. So, I'll give you that.

Not calling it that, however, does not change the fact that race-based admissions processes like that challenged in Grutter do in fact exist, with the goal of promoting diversity. The very existence of such a program, by definition, is evidence that racial factors are being used to manually alter the recipients of enrollment slots.


Who said that race isn't considered in admissions decisions? Of course it is.

I just said that practice looks nothing like the scenario you painted above. What you implied is a legally mandated system of racial preference for otherwise unqualified candidates. In short, a quota system. No such beast exists.

(Likewise, I don't think you're going to find much empirical evidence for the assertion that such race-sensitive admission policies have had any appreciable impact on white university enrollment rates -- the second, and more troubling, assertion in your nightmare scenario. But, I'll let you have a look at the research yourself, and come to your own conclusions.)

You can suggest that there still is a quota system, and it's just hidden really well with a more complex set of entrance criteria. But, at a certain point, you're just abusing the plain meaning of the term, "quota." Most schools, to include the one I worked at, were pretty transparent about the fact that promoting minority student enrollment was a goal for them. They were also quite transparent about they go about doing that in terms of their entrance policies. (They have to: university admissions are a highly regulated affair, by law.) And what they're doing amounts to: not all that much, at all.

And a great many of them have pretty much thrown in the towel after Grutter, which has had a real effect on minority enrollment rates, so the suggestion that the case is simply a passive witness to "what universities are doing anyway" just doesn't hold up well in the face of empirical evidence.
 
2013-05-15 08:45:20 PM  
ProfessorOhki:
Funny, I heard both, "keep hands on the steering wheel when pulled over, don't reach for registration until asked" and "don't obscure your face in a bank" as a kid. Maybe it just a matter of having parents who don't want you to end up in potentially dangerous and wholly avoidable situations?

Store, not bank. Bank is obvious, no matter what shade you are. I told him about a little experiment I and three of my shipmates tried when I was in my early 20's and in the Navy. Two black guys, an Filipino and a white guy from Georgia who couldn't believe that racism was still prevalent in the mid 80's.
We all went down to the mall in Norfolk, Virginia dressed in jeans and jackets and tshirts and athletic shoes, and I handed him my new digital watch. It had a stopwatch function, and I told him to start it when I entered a store chosen at random and stop it when the first employee came up to me and asked "may I help you?" (code for "I'm watching your ass").

I walked into the store. The employee came up to me, as promised, and asked "may I help you". I said "no thank you" and left. Total time = 17 seconds. Didn't even have time to pick up anything.
The Filipino walked into the same store. His time was almost three minutes.
The other black guy walked in, as soon as he picked an item up the employee popped the question. Time = 36 seconds.
Then the white guy strolled in. Looked around, up and down the aisles, picked stuff up, put it down, looked around some more. No employees. He had to go find one. Total time = 5 minutes 22 seconds.
If we had wanted to steal that store blind, all I and the other black guy would have to do was walk around the store and make noise, with the Filipno as a backup diversion, while the white guy took everything that wasn't nailed down.

Now I realize the plural of anecdote is not data. but if you ask any of the black people, especially black males that frequent FARK, you will get similar stories. There's a difference between "dangerous and avoidable situations" in general, and "dangerous and avoidable situations that happen because you're black".

The second takes special care. It's also why black males die more often than white males from stress related illnesses. A lifetime of worrying about sh*t like this can take it's toll on a person.
 
2013-05-15 08:45:29 PM  

ChrisDe: JerseyTim: Heck, I would have gotten rid of it just based on the Iowa thing.

In addition, potential recipients are not allowed to study law, medicine, dentistry, veterinary surgery or theology, and must move back to Iowa for at least two years after graduating.

[cf2s1.cbncdn.com image 280x280]


Eh, what ever.  Des Moines is a great place to live.
 
2013-05-15 08:47:36 PM  

Bumblefark: BigNumber12: Bumblefark: I see you're among the irony impaired. Ok -- I'll try to speak in literal terms, and slowly enough that you might be able to follow what I am saying:

You have no idea what you're talking about. You are depicting a practice that essentially has no bearing on reality, and exists mostly as the fevered nightmare of closeted bigots everywhere. I think you are a closeted bigot. You sound like a closeted bigot.

Any of this getting through, sport?

That's sweet - things don't exist because you say they don't.

Also, congratulations on the fashionable use of the insult "bigot." It seems to be all the rage these days when attempting to shut down dialogue and intimidate one's opposition into silence.

Well, then let's keep the conversation going. Please point me to the law that apportions enrollment slots to less capable students, based on their skin color.

It's cool. I'll wait.


I don't know about students, but it's definitely a factor in things like police and fire department hirings in many urban areas.  In Boston, it came about through federal court rulings and subsequent departmental hiring regulations, rather than a single statute I can point to, for instance.  You want a citation, you're going to have to dig it out yourself; I get $250 an hour for legal research.

A good start for a layman is Common Ground:  http://www.amazon.com/Common-Ground-Turbulent-American-Families/dp/03 9 4746163

I'm not saying that means we should do away with affirmative action today, but pretending the side effect doesn't exist, and doesn't hurt a small but measurable number of white applicants each year...not to mention depriving tax payers of better candidates...is factually incorrect.

I happen to think it's a price we have to pay now for past injustice.  But it's not a price we have to pay indefinitely.

Note that my analysis doesn't change with the color of whoever happens to be in the minority at the moment.
 
2013-05-15 08:47:49 PM  

super_grass: Bumblefark: super_grass: Bumblefark: BigNumber12: Bumblefark: I see you're among the irony impaired. Ok -- I'll try to speak in literal terms, and slowly enough that you might be able to follow what I am saying:

You have no idea what you're talking about. You are depicting a practice that essentially has no bearing on reality, and exists mostly as the fevered nightmare of closeted bigots everywhere. I think you are a closeted bigot. You sound like a closeted bigot.

Any of this getting through, sport?

That's sweet - things don't exist because you say they don't.

Also, congratulations on the fashionable use of the insult "bigot." It seems to be all the rage these days when attempting to shut down dialogue and intimidate one's opposition into silence.

Well, then let's keep the conversation going. Please point me to the law that apportions enrollment slots to less capable students, based on their skin color.

It's cool. I'll wait.

There's no law saying that people must discriminate against minorities as well, so clearly discrimination against them do not exist.

[freemarketmojo.files.wordpress.com image 405x271]

Why, yes, I *do* think the goal posts look better back there.

Nice jerb.

/should I explain why that chart doesn't prove what you think it does?

Are you implying that policies don't have side-effects that are not written down? There's nothing wrong with pointing that out.

By the way, passive aggressive dismissal of contradictory data isn't going to prove you any more right either. If you think there's more to the argument, explain it through instead of being wry.


The exchange you stepped into was about the existence or non-existence of quota systems. I interpreted your remark as an attempt to preempt that, maybe because you knew how that argument was going to have to play out. Clearly, I over-read. Dick move on my part.

Yes, of course there is a difference between practice and policy. I just don't think it is all that great of one. So, the chart you showed, for example: to really know if we are looking at significant differences between the racial groups, we'd need to know something about the base rate for applications as well as the within-group variances. We'd also need to know exactly how the different formal criteria (those itemized in the graph, as well as those that are not) are measured and weighted. I personally have no clue in that case. I just know that the information isn't available in the graph, and that it is therefore prone to misinterpretation.
 
2013-05-15 08:57:45 PM  

lennavan: Bumblefark: Well, then let's keep the conversation going. Please point me to the law that apportions enrollment slots to less capable students, based on their skin color.

Don't be silly, it's not a law, it's a check box.  Look at the enrollment statistics for any college you like and there's your evidence.

I'll tell you what, I'll even make it easy on you.  I bet you can't find a single University program, undergraduate, MD, JD, PhD, etc., where it doesn't matter what race or sex you are, the statistics (GPA, SAT, GRE, MCAT, LSAT, etc) are the same.  I bet you can't find one.


Context -- how does it work?

Much as I appreciate the homework assignment, it's your assertion, you can illustrate it if you like. Then we can discuss your interpretation of the statistics. I'm guessing it will be a short conversation.
 
2013-05-15 09:00:21 PM  

special20: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: "...you would not be liked by some of our black employees, therefore sorry about that, no job for you."

It was the AB tattoo on your neck, right?


Or the swastika haircut.
 
2013-05-15 09:19:03 PM  

Bumblefark: super_grass: Bumblefark: super_grass: Bumblefark: BigNumber12: Bumblefark: I see you're among the irony impaired. Ok -- I'll try to speak in literal terms, and slowly enough that you might be able to follow what I am saying:

You have no idea what you're talking about. You are depicting a practice that essentially has no bearing on reality, and exists mostly as the fevered nightmare of closeted bigots everywhere. I think you are a closeted bigot. You sound like a closeted bigot.

Any of this getting through, sport?

That's sweet - things don't exist because you say they don't.

Also, congratulations on the fashionable use of the insult "bigot." It seems to be all the rage these days when attempting to shut down dialogue and intimidate one's opposition into silence.

Well, then let's keep the conversation going. Please point me to the law that apportions enrollment slots to less capable students, based on their skin color.

It's cool. I'll wait.

There's no law saying that people must discriminate against minorities as well, so clearly discrimination against them do not exist.

[freemarketmojo.files.wordpress.com image 405x271]

Why, yes, I *do* think the goal posts look better back there.

Nice jerb.

/should I explain why that chart doesn't prove what you think it does?

Are you implying that policies don't have side-effects that are not written down? There's nothing wrong with pointing that out.

By the way, passive aggressive dismissal of contradictory data isn't going to prove you any more right either. If you think there's more to the argument, explain it through instead of being wry.

The exchange you stepped into was about the existence or non-existence of quota systems. I interpreted your remark as an attempt to preempt that, maybe because you knew how that argument was going to have to play out. Clearly, I over-read. Dick move on my part.

Yes, of course there is a difference between practice and policy. I just don't think it is all that great of one. So, t ...


Read about Grutter vs. Boelinger. Pretty crazy. Perfect SAT score got them 4 points. Being black got you 20, out of a 150 point acceptance scale I believe.

Being white is actually a huge handicap in this country. All businesses, colleges have affirmative action policies either explicitly or implicitly. Being a white male even worse. I think white males should stop working, collect welfare, let everyone else shoulder the burden for a while.
 
2013-05-15 09:59:29 PM  

Thunderpipes: Read about Grutter vs. Boelinger. Pretty crazy. Perfect SAT score got them 4 points. Being black got you 20, out of a 150 point acceptance scale I believe.

Being white is actually a huge handicap in this country. All businesses, colleges have affirmative action policies either explicitly or implicitly. Being a white male even worse. I think white males should stop working, collect welfare, let everyone else shoulder the burden for a while.


I have read Grutter. I think you're referring to Gratz. I believe the policy you are referring to was struck down by the court. I was speaking in terms of the present day.

As for the second part...wow, really? You honestly believe being white is a handicap. Sorry...I should probably have some sort of witty rejoined for that, but I don't.
 
2013-05-15 10:30:03 PM  

Donnchadha: dj_bigbird: Does Columbia have scholarships for African-American students? Hispanic?

That's not "discriminating based on race", that's "empowering a minority".


No, it's making white people admit a few black kids because they wouldn't if the government didn't make them.

Why do white people always try to act like black people get special treatment when it's just white people's hatred and ignorance that makes any type of affirmative action necessary?

Do white people really believe that previously all white colleges would admit black kids if they weren't forced to by law? I got hundreds of years of history that says differently.
 
2013-05-15 10:30:43 PM  

Bumblefark: As for the second part...wow, really? You honestly believe being white is a handicap. Sorry...I should probably have some sort of witty rejoined for that, but I don't.


i sure as hell do, i've watched more jobs and fellowships and what not that i wanted handed to little asian chicks than i can count on two hands. i got a shiatload of real tight education and it's basically worthless since white 'isn't cool' right now. crap, man, even some of the hiring managers were pissed they had to choose the 'other' candidate and sent me half-explanations outta their hotmail/gmail accounts saying that. now i'm still pro diversity and prolly wouldn't levy the same discrimination now, against, minorities if i was a hiring manager at this point, but a few more punches in the nose and i might very well make a directly racist decision in a business setting and that's not right, man, it's come to that point, you know? - - i really wish i was trolling with this one.

grr.

still pro-ethnic diversity. still pro-gay.
 
2013-05-15 10:47:28 PM  
Came late to the party here--about 472 posts so far.

Mark me down for this is a bullshiat issue to worry about.  Mainly because it's decades too late to need addressing.  Minorities have equal rights and opportunities now, versus the 1960s.  In some ways they have huge unearned benefits thrown their way, such as extra points for just being some shade of brown (unless you're Asian, then you count as white, because there are too many applying for college.  If Asians weren't restricted their numbers would go up at virtually every Ivy League university.).

This is 2013 and we should all be embarrassed we're talking about color or perceived minority status in any form.  The opportunities to succeed are there and available to those who work for them.  If this scholarship is changed, then they all should be.  But of course women, blacks, Indians, and Mexicans would never go for that.
 
2013-05-15 11:05:21 PM  
Yah of course.. why should a single group have hundreds of oppertiunties that someone in their same socal econimcal class doesn't

....
 
2013-05-16 01:01:50 AM  

rewind2846: ProfessorOhki:
Funny, I heard both, "keep hands on the steering wheel when pulled over, don't reach for registration until asked" and "don't obscure your face in a bank" as a kid. Maybe it just a matter of having parents who don't want you to end up in potentially dangerous and wholly avoidable situations?

Store, not bank. Bank is obvious, no matter what shade you are. I told him about a little experiment I and three of my shipmates tried when I was in my early 20's and in the Navy. Two black guys, an Filipino and a white guy from Georgia who couldn't believe that racism was still prevalent in the mid 80's.
We all went down to the mall in Norfolk, Virginia dressed in jeans and jackets and tshirts and athletic shoes, and I handed him my new digital watch. It had a stopwatch function, and I told him to start it when I entered a store chosen at random and stop it when the first employee came up to me and asked "may I help you?" (code for "I'm watching your ass").

I walked into the store. The employee came up to me, as promised, and asked "may I help you". I said "no thank you" and left. Total time = 17 seconds. Didn't even have time to pick up anything.
The Filipino walked into the same store. His time was almost three minutes.
The other black guy walked in, as soon as he picked an item up the employee popped the question. Time = 36 seconds.
Then the white guy strolled in. Looked around, up and down the aisles, picked stuff up, put it down, looked around some more. No employees. He had to go find one. Total time = 5 minutes 22 seconds.
If we had wanted to steal that store blind, all I and the other black guy would have to do was walk around the store and make noise, with the Filipno as a backup diversion, while the white guy took everything that wasn't nailed down.

Now I realize the plural of anecdote is not data. but if you ask any of the black people, especially black males that frequent FARK, you will get similar stories. There's a difference between "dangerous a ...


I don't disbelieve it at all and it's depressing. But I am sort of curious to explore both halves of the equation. If the numbers were exactly reversed, what would your feeling about the results have been? "There's no bias," "they're more suspicious of white people," or "they're more eager to wait on white people?"

There's plenty of racial bias in the country; not going to deny that for one second. I just can't accept that Infernalist's White Man's Burdenesque "someone has to help them!" type sentiment is the way to do something about it. I feel like the next generation or two is going to mix this old crap up; there's something to be said for growing up constantly interacting with a much more diverse group than you would have growing up otherwise. Yeah sure, the Internet's a farking racist place, but it's brand of hard-to-silence communication... I've got some hope for the future. That's sort of why all racially targeted scholarships rub me the wrong way, it feels like the biases of the old guard being pushed onto kids who had no say in any of it. Admittedly, I've been lucky enough to not really have to deal with issues like that personally, but I can't really speak from any perspective besides my own.
 
2013-05-16 01:30:48 AM  

Highroller48: Please, won't somebody think of us poor, disadvantaged, persecuted white people!


You know there actually a lot of disadvantaged white people.  You don't have to think to hard to think of an area overflowing with white trash in America, that is to say an area full of poor white kids who are the product of poor white uneducated parents.  The kind of families where no one's ever gone to college, where scholastic achievement is mocked and belittled.

Sure, their whiteness might give them a little advantage in life, if they can overcome the base disadvantage they've got, including the prejudice other white people have against white trash.

It's really insulting to a kid to say to them "Okay, you come from an illiterate family where no one in the last fifty years has held a proper job, with five brothers and sisters who all dropped out of high school, and a drunk daddy who alternately beat and raped you and yet still managed to graduate high school with good enough grades to get into college, and if you can't get some help you'll have to give up and work a pole, but you're white, so you're privileged, so fark you."

Needs-based grants aimed at underprivileged white kids shouldn't raise eyebrows.
 
2013-05-16 01:35:38 AM  

ProfessorOhki: There's plenty of racial bias in the country; not going to deny that for one second. I just can't accept that Infernalist's White Man's Burdenesque "someone has to help them!" type sentiment is the way to do something about it. I feel like the next generation or two is going to mix this old crap up; there's something to be said for growing up constantly interacting with a much more diverse group than you would have growing up otherwise. Yeah sure, the Internet's a farking racist place, but it's brand of hard-to-silence communication... I've got some hope for the future. That's sort of why all racially targeted scholarships rub me the wrong way, it feels like the biases of the old guard being pushed onto kids who had no say in any of it. Admittedly, I've been lucky enough to not really have to deal with issues like that personally, but I can't really speak from any perspective besides my own.


I'm not sure you've got a very tight grasp on what the nature of the problem is. Racial attitudes really aren't the issue. True bigots are pretty few and far between these days. I think we're just about as enlightened as we're going to get.

The problem is something sociologists call "cumulative disadvantage." Basically, really small differences in how we treat people tend to snowball over time. Across a single lifetime, the effects can produce wildly divergent outcomes in terms of opportunities and quality of life. Across generations, those snowballs turn into mountains. Screaming, "but I'm an INNOCENT, I wasn't even HERE when the first snowflake fell" -- yeah, that's true. You are morally unsullied. Want a cookie for that? Or, are you capable of putting that aside, and thinking about what might be best for the health of a society.

Because: a healthy society, we are not. Come down to my neck of the woods. I'll show a city so insidiously segregated in terms of race, it would have made the Jim Crow enthusiasts wet their pants to think such a thing could be possible without ever having to put on a pointy hood in the middle of the night...
 
2013-05-16 01:44:39 AM  

boarch: Lucky you, I paid my way in full even after making the dean's list twice. If I were a little less white... it would of been free.


Dean's list.... Riiiiiiight.  His grocery list?
 
2013-05-16 02:03:27 AM  

Bumblefark: I'm not sure you've got a very tight grasp on what the nature of the problem is. Racial attitudes really aren't the issue. True bigots are pretty few and far between these days. I think we're just about as enlightened as we're going to get.

The problem is something sociologists call "cumulative disadvantage." Basically, really small differences in how we treat people tend to snowball over time. Across a single lifetime, the effects can produce wildly divergent outcomes in terms of opportunities and quality of life. Across generations, those snowballs turn into mountains. Screaming, "but I'm an INNOCENT, I wasn't even HERE when the first snowflake fell" -- yeah, that's true. You are morally unsullied. Want a cookie for that? Or, are you capable of putting that aside, and thinking about what might be best for the health of a society.

Because: a healthy society, we are not. Come down to my neck of the woods. I'll show a city so insidiously segregated in terms of race, it would have made the Jim Crow enthusiasts wet their pants to think such a thing could be possible without ever having to put on a pointy hood in the middle of the night...


Doesn't your argument basically provide for "African-American only scholarships are racist against Latinos" and/or "Latino only scholarships are racist against African-Americans?" Why not just use economic need. If the cumulative disadvantage is as massive as you say it is (which it very well could be), wouldn't that reflect that just as accurately? Why not use disadvantage instead of perceived disadvantage? My point is that race-based distribution of anything breeds bigotry. You're just asking for "he took my job," "she took my education" attitudes to become the norm. I'd rather see the culture even out than ping-pong between who resents who this decade.

As for racial segregation in an urban environment... if you've got 10 minutes: Link
 
2013-05-16 02:04:41 AM  
The legal problem lies in Columbia's management of the scholarship.  A school which receives federal funds cannot award scholarships based on race.  It would also be a PR problem for the school.

The fund should be placed under private management.  Columbia decides who's admitted, private fund decides who gets money.
 
2013-05-16 02:38:20 AM  

ProfessorOhki: Bumblefark: I'm not sure you've got a very tight grasp on what the nature of the problem is. Racial attitudes really aren't the issue. True bigots are pretty few and far between these days. I think we're just about as enlightened as we're going to get.

The problem is something sociologists call "cumulative disadvantage." Basically, really small differences in how we treat people tend to snowball over time. Across a single lifetime, the effects can produce wildly divergent outcomes in terms of opportunities and quality of life. Across generations, those snowballs turn into mountains. Screaming, "but I'm an INNOCENT, I wasn't even HERE when the first snowflake fell" -- yeah, that's true. You are morally unsullied. Want a cookie for that? Or, are you capable of putting that aside, and thinking about what might be best for the health of a society.

Because: a healthy society, we are not. Come down to my neck of the woods. I'll show a city so insidiously segregated in terms of race, it would have made the Jim Crow enthusiasts wet their pants to think such a thing could be possible without ever having to put on a pointy hood in the middle of the night...

Doesn't your argument basically provide for "African-American only scholarships are racist against Latinos" and/or "Latino only scholarships are racist against African-Americans?" Why not just use economic need. If the cumulative disadvantage is as massive as you say it is (which it very well could be), wouldn't that reflect that just as accurately? Why not use disadvantage instead of perceived disadvantage? My point is that race-based distribution of anything breeds bigotry. You're just asking for "he took my job," "she took my education" attitudes to become the norm. I'd rather see the culture even out than ping-pong between who resents who this decade.

As for racial segregation in an urban environment... if you've got 10 minutes: Link


I grew up a poor white boy in an economically depressed part of the country. I put myself through college flipping burgers and digging graves. (No exaggeration.) You don't need to sell me on switching over to class-based assistance. I'll write the newsletter. Hell, I'll be the Johny Appleseed for that cause.

Never going to happen. White America might not like the darkies, but they *really* don't like poor people. The entire American mythos is based on the assumption that, if you're poor, it's your own damn fault. Get boot-strappy, or STFU and dig that ditch. Either way, don't expect any help. At least in matters of race, most Americans understand that the poverty of racial minorities isn't entirely of their making. There are concrete things we can point to in the history of our treatment of blacks, Hispanics, and Indians that quickly and easily belie the American myth of unlimited individual potential.

Do affirmative action policies breed resentment? Yes. Of course they do. Just scroll through this thread. But, placating such resentments in the past doesn't seem to have accomplished much -- whereas the policies themselves have accomplished a great deal.

And, in any case, I've yet to hear of a better approach to addressing the problems we currently face.

/Good video. Not entirely sure what point you were attempting to get at with it, but appreciate the link.
 
2013-05-16 02:57:48 AM  

Bumblefark: /Good video. Not entirely sure what point you were attempting to get at with it, but appreciate the link.


Just that extremely segregated cities don't always reflect intolerant individuals. Just the simple idea of "I don't want to be the odd one out" or "I want at least someone who shares my culture" can lead to massive segregation on the larger scale.

You're right about America and the poor though. Our cultural mentality about that sort off thing is shameful, especially when it comes to simple things like healthcare... but that's a topic for another thread.
 
2013-05-16 03:29:28 AM  

ProfessorOhki: Just that extremely segregated cities don't always reflect intolerant individuals. Just the simple idea of "I don't want to be the odd one out" or "I want at least someone who shares my culture" can lead to massive segregation on the larger scale.

You're right about America and the poor though. Our cultural mentality about that sort off thing is shameful, especially when it comes to simple things like healthcare... but that's a topic for another thread.


Fair enough. Actually, I think San Antonio would be a case study in support of your point. There really aren't many right-out-loud racists down here. At least, none that I've met (contrary to popular opinions about Texans...and, honestly, I'm the first one to bag on Texans, when they deserve it). People like to be around those who are like them. That's just human nature. What it doesn't explain is how the southern (read: predominately Hispanic) half of the city is a nightmare that *everybody* (white and Hispanic) wants to escape, but for the most part can't.

In the end, it just isn't an intellectual exercise for me. I've got two kids, twins. The boy looks like me. Which is to say, he looks like he just fell off the boat from Ireland. Pasty white, big blue eyes, strawberry blond hair. The girl looks like her mom. Dark skinned, brown eyes, a shock of black and kinky hair. A beautiful girl, but I'm admittedly biased.

I know which one is going to have the rougher go of life. And, really, I can't help but be pissed off in advance...
 
2013-05-16 06:14:02 AM  

Corvus: Elegy: Highroller48: Brick-House: Elegy: There was nothing wrong with this. Why did Columbia cave in to pressure?

Its called political correctness which is really farkin up this country.

That, and the whole "IT'S ILLEGAL" thing, which I'm sure had nothing at all to do with the decision to stop awarding it.

Double-fail.

It's legal to award minority students grants based on race, but illegal to distribute a grant specifically for whites based on their race?

I-I.... don't understand. Can you explain it to me?

Because it's to get underrepresented groups into colleges, which is why Asians don't get them either.

If whites were underrepresented then they should have scholarships. That's the logic to it.




But why are they underrepresented? Do they lack the same academic qualifications and if so why should they be admitted if they fai to me the requirements.

Women certainly are not underrepresented on college campuses why should they get special scholarships based on gender?
 
2013-05-16 06:21:52 AM  

Highroller48: Please, won't somebody think of us poor, disadvantaged, persecuted white people!



What poor disadvantaged white people might look like:

4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-05-16 06:30:51 AM  
When the scholarship was last offered, in 1997, it amounted to $22,000 per year, last than half of a full year's tuition, the Daily News reports.

I see we still have a different standard of journalism for the Internet.

Separate and in-equal.
 
2013-05-16 06:31:23 AM  

Highroller48: Walker: But Black only, Hispanic only, and Asian only are perfectly fine? Ohhhhhh I see. It's not racism when you are racist against whites.

Please, won't somebody think of us poor, disadvantaged, persecuted white people!

There are only two types of people that refer to programs designed to give systemically disadvantaged minorities an edge to overcome those hurdles as "reverse discrimination" or "racism":  Racists and people who failed History class.



So what your sayig is the approx. $16 Trillion in war on poverty spending over decades coupled with the additional decades of speical treatment under the law ("Affirmative" action, set asides and quotas) has not been enough to overcome a culture based on thugism (rap), where striving for academic achievement is regraded as acting white (why not acting Asian?), the cult of victimization and welfare and continued special treament is not only regarded as an entitlement but a now a multi-generational career choice.
 
2013-05-16 07:34:25 AM  

ProfessorOhki: Bumblefark: /Good video. Not entirely sure what point you were attempting to get at with it, but appreciate the link.

Just that extremely segregated cities don't always reflect intolerant individuals. Just the simple idea of "I don't want to be the odd one out" or "I want at least someone who shares my culture" can lead to massive segregation on the larger scale.


They've done some fascinating mathematical modelling of that effect...take a random field of black and white tiles, program in a tiny 1 percent "preference" for tiles to want to be next to their own color, sit back, run a few iterations, and, presto...self-segregation.
 
2013-05-16 07:41:53 AM  

Infernalist: JohnnyRebel88: F it.  If they are allowed to have "minority" scholarships, they should be allowed to have a "whites only" one.  May I remind you that this is a free country, and since Columbia is a private institution, they should be to do whatever they want.

However, the most most logical act would not give aide to people because of the color of their skin, gender, religious beliefs nor sexual orientation, it should be given to a person with the best vision for a better tomorrow and actually deserve the grant or scholarship.

Truly, spoken like someone living in an ideal world.

Sadly, we don't live in an ideal world.  We live in a world where people get rejected for things that they've earned/deserve because of their skin/ethnicity/religion/sex.

So, until we achieve that ideal world, we have to somehow make up for the assholes in the system who don't like treating people equally.

If you want to blame someone, blame Bob in Human Relations who won't hire a black man/woman.


Having represented a white client who was railroaded out of his job by two black women from HR...who perjured themselves, by the way...I'm gonna say "no".

/joke was on them, he got a better job, and his former company folded within a year
//that's what happens when you let race...ANY race...trump performance
 
2013-05-16 07:46:29 AM  

tlars699: hasty ambush: tlars699: Yes. Change them to "Single Parent"- talk about the least support system on any effing campus. Non Trad support, MY ASS.

That single parent thing is, with a few exception, largely preventable on an individual level and even if it is not there is no reason for a special support system for them.  They are a big enough pain in the ass in the military do we need to cater to them in the private sector to.

1. College is the private sector?
2. Women based groups were all super supportive of everyone, except pregnant chicks/single fathers trying to better themselves.
3. They are not largely preventable with abusive farkwads- notsoCSB
4. Oh noes! They're everywhere! Do you have to raise a kid by yourself? No? Do you have to help babysit the kid? No? Then eat a bowl of badger knuckles.


Oh noes you have a child, why can't you impose that burden and responsibility on others and force them to make special accommodations for you?
 
2013-05-16 09:51:25 AM  

titwrench: UrukHaiGuyz: HotWingConspiracy: I've always wanted to open a restaurant named "Whites Only", and have everything inside be white. Walls, table cloths, etc.

Then on opening night I'd only invite non-whites.

I think I planned on masturbating on something too, it was an art project. You have to masturbate or it's not art.

Well in that case call me Picasso.


Really? You didn't go with Jacksoff Pollack?


Vincent Hand Gogh
 
2013-05-16 10:04:44 AM  

give me doughnuts: Only Maine,

(cold) New Hampshire,(cold)  North Dakota,(cold)  Vermont,(cold)  and West Virginia(cousins)  are more white than Iowa.
 
2013-05-16 10:09:18 AM  

Bumblefark: I've yet to hear of a better approach to addressing the problems we currently face.


Except for the one that you replied to in that very farking post. Jesus Christ.
 
2013-05-16 11:04:32 AM  

umad: Bumblefark: I've yet to hear of a better approach to addressing the problems we currently face.

Except for the one that you replied to in that very farking post. Jesus Christ.


ok.
 
2013-05-16 12:34:38 PM  

Infernalist: ProfessorOhki: Infernalist: ProfessorOhki: Infernalist: This text is now purple: Infernalist: Now, at some point, the sum 'total' of all minorities in this country, COMBINED, will be more than the Caucasian population, but that's not the same as being a minority.

It is, but don't let that stop you.

\The opposite of minority is majority, not plurality.

So, by your reasoning, once the non-white population is outnumbers the white population, then the white population is a minority.

And if that's true, then in that America where the white population is a minority race, what's the Majority race?

There is none.

Noun majority (plural majorities): More than half (50%) of some group

/Welcome to English
//Please enjoy your stay

But, the white population 'is' the majority race in this country today.  Does that change when it's no longer the majority race?

You're asking if a majority stop being a majority when it stops being a majority?

In the actual meaning of the word, yes. In the "arbitrarily defined something something social justice power levels" meaning? Doubtful. There could be one white guy left in 2090 and the people who subscribe to that sort of definition would still blame him for humanity's ills.

/Probably posthumously too

No, you're grasping the point.  As of right 'now', the white population is the majority race in America.  It's going to 'stay' the majority race for...ever, probably.  As far as we're concerned, at least.  That certainly won't change for a few hundred years, so it's a moot point for our discussion.

Now, at some point in the somewhat near future, the sum total of the minority races in America will outnumber the white population.

But that doesn't mean that the white population is suddenly a minority in America.  The white race will STILL be the majority race in America.


The real point is: "white" isn't a skin colour; it's true shade is much more "green".
 
2013-05-16 12:38:34 PM  

Lord Farkwad: Negro Please!
[s10.postimg.org image 640x209]


I was told we couldn't use the word "negro" anymore; apparently it's very disrespectful and someone needs to let these people know that.
 
2013-05-16 12:56:02 PM  

Two16: Lord Farkwad: Negro Please!
[s10.postimg.org image 640x209]

I was told we couldn't use the word "negro" anymore; apparently it's very disrespectful and someone needs to let these people know that.


But, porch monkey's still cool...right?

/takin' it back
 
2013-05-16 01:32:49 PM  

Thunderpipes: Bumblefark: super_grass: Bumblefark: super_grass: Bumblefark: BigNumber12: Bumblefark: I see you're among the irony impaired. Ok -- I'll try to speak in literal terms, and slowly enough that you might be able to follow what I am saying:

You have no idea what you're talking about. You are depicting a practice that essentially has no bearing on reality, and exists mostly as the fevered nightmare of closeted bigots everywhere. I think you are a closeted bigot. You sound like a closeted bigot.

Any of this getting through, sport?

That's sweet - things don't exist because you say they don't.

Also, congratulations on the fashionable use of the insult "bigot." It seems to be all the rage these days when attempting to shut down dialogue and intimidate one's opposition into silence.

Well, then let's keep the conversation going. Please point me to the law that apportions enrollment slots to less capable students, based on their skin color.

It's cool. I'll wait.

There's no law saying that people must discriminate against minorities as well, so clearly discrimination against them do not exist.

[freemarketmojo.files.wordpress.com image 405x271]

Why, yes, I *do* think the goal posts look better back there.

Nice jerb.

/should I explain why that chart doesn't prove what you think it does?

Are you implying that policies don't have side-effects that are not written down? There's nothing wrong with pointing that out.

By the way, passive aggressive dismissal of contradictory data isn't going to prove you any more right either. If you think there's more to the argument, explain it through instead of being wry.

The exchange you stepped into was about the existence or non-existence of quota systems. I interpreted your remark as an attempt to preempt that, maybe because you knew how that argument was going to have to play out. Clearly, I over-read. Dick move on my part.

Yes, of course there is a difference between practice and policy. I just don't think it is all that great o ...


Why do you want to punish successful people?
 
2013-05-16 01:33:46 PM  

Bumblefark: Two16: Lord Farkwad: Negro Please!
[s10.postimg.org image 640x209]

I was told we couldn't use the word "negro" anymore; apparently it's very disrespectful and someone needs to let these people know that.

But, porch monkey's still cool...right?

/takin' it back


Oh, totally.
 
2013-05-16 01:51:26 PM  

Bumblefark: lennavan: Bumblefark: Well, then let's keep the conversation going. Please point me to the law that apportions enrollment slots to less capable students, based on their skin color.

Don't be silly, it's not a law, it's a check box.  Look at the enrollment statistics for any college you like and there's your evidence.

I'll tell you what, I'll even make it easy on you.  I bet you can't find a single University program, undergraduate, MD, JD, PhD, etc., where it doesn't matter what race or sex you are, the statistics (GPA, SAT, GRE, MCAT, LSAT, etc) are the same.  I bet you can't find one.

Context -- how does it work?

Much as I appreciate the homework assignment, it's your assertion, you can illustrate it if you like. Then we can discuss your interpretation of the statistics. I'm guessing it will be a short conversation.



I think you are the only person who exists that actually thinks the admission standards for various educational opportunities are equal amongst the races and sexes.  Literally, the only person who thinks that.
 
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