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(International Business Times)   Columbia University has finally decided that its "whites-only" scholarship is a bad idea   (ibtimes.com) divider line 505
    More: Obvious, Columbia University, scholarships, white people, Trust  
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10326 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 May 2013 at 2:37 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-15 06:11:57 PM

JesseL: Infernalist: Oh, I reported most of them. Quietly. A few of them were demoted.

Mostly, though, I'd end up being fired after a couple of weeks for something stupid.

but, hey, at least I can look myself in the mirror in the morning.

Why would you do it quietly? That shiat needs to be loudly and publicly stomped on. People like that need to be exposed and shamed. Racism is like fungus, it grows in the dark and where it has plenty of BS to feed it. Your style of action will only keep it going.

Mattyb710: The way in which you are advocating we "actively try and negate its impact" simply gives the racists more ammunition. If we actually treated every single person the same, regardless of race, color, religion, sexual orientation or anything else, eventually more and more people would think the same way.

There will always be racist douchebags in the world. We can't fight them by using a form of racism ourselves. That's plain idiotic.

^^^THAT^^^


Why did I do it quietly?  Because I have kids and I like being able to feed on my own without having to rely on food assistance because I got fired for doing the right thing.

Didn't help much, I still got fired on a number of occasions, but again, I have my dignity and self respect.

Besides, in the business world, you don't rage at your boss over their misdeeds, you complain to 'their' boss.  Or to an HR officer.  Raging at your boss for his racism is a guaranteed firing, no matter what happens to 'him'.  It's not just suggested, but 'required' in most businesses to handle such matters quietly.

As for using racism to fight racism...Show me something else that works and isn't racist and I'll support 'that' instead.

But it has to work.  Not just feel good.
 
2013-05-15 06:14:43 PM

Infernalist: Oh, the 'solutions' to that discrimination and racism already exist. They have had these solutions for years, the only problem is, people find a way to get around them, bypass them, ignore them.

Don't like black people? Refuse to hire them because they lack enough experience. Or they're overqualified. Or the position's already filled.

Don't want certain races in your apartments? Tell them that they don't make enough to qualify. Or their references didn't check out.

The racism isn't open and obvious anymore. It's quiet and subtle and hidden behind smiles and apologetic words.

Now, is my solution racist? Maybe. I don't really 'care' what it's called. As far as I see, it's a necessary evil, required because of the actions of others. I'm pretty sure that most minorities don't 'like' having to rely on Affirmative Action and would much rather make their way in the world on their own merits, but too many people exist in this country that would simply ignore those merits and reward other less deserving men because of irrational hatred based on race.

And as long as those racists exist, then I see the need for that balancing hand to try and minimize their impact.


And you still don't see that racism begets more racism?

If existing racists have to keep quiet and operate subtly that's bad, but at least they're not spreading their ideas and if they try they can be subject to shame and ridicule. Eventually there will be very few of them left.

If institutional racism continues to exist, it's a constant reminder that people can be treated differently based on their skin color. That guarantees that it will continue to feed entitlement, resentment, and the notion that our skin makes us different.
 
2013-05-15 06:20:07 PM

Infernalist: I still got fired on a number of occasions


I have news for you cupcake. You weren't fired "on a number of occasions" because you are a "good guy." After reading the thread, I am positive that you are the type of person who refuses to take responsibility for your mistakes and sweeps them under the rug. Nobody wants to employ people like you since little problems tend to become big problems when you are around.
 
2013-05-15 06:20:35 PM

JesseL: Infernalist: Oh, the 'solutions' to that discrimination and racism already exist. They have had these solutions for years, the only problem is, people find a way to get around them, bypass them, ignore them.

Don't like black people? Refuse to hire them because they lack enough experience. Or they're overqualified. Or the position's already filled.

Don't want certain races in your apartments? Tell them that they don't make enough to qualify. Or their references didn't check out.

The racism isn't open and obvious anymore. It's quiet and subtle and hidden behind smiles and apologetic words.

Now, is my solution racist? Maybe. I don't really 'care' what it's called. As far as I see, it's a necessary evil, required because of the actions of others. I'm pretty sure that most minorities don't 'like' having to rely on Affirmative Action and would much rather make their way in the world on their own merits, but too many people exist in this country that would simply ignore those merits and reward other less deserving men because of irrational hatred based on race.

And as long as those racists exist, then I see the need for that balancing hand to try and minimize their impact.

And you still don't see that racism begets more racism?

If existing racists have to keep quiet and operate subtly that's bad, but at least they're not spreading their ideas and if they try they can be subject to shame and ridicule. Eventually there will be very few of them left.

If institutional racism continues to exist, it's a constant reminder that people can be treated differently based on their skin color. That guarantees that it will continue to feed entitlement, resentment, and the notion that our skin makes us different.


Except they're not shamed and ridiculed.  They work quietly and efficiently and nothing ever happens to most of them.

Some of them even get powerful enough to run for the Republican nomination for the Presidency.

See, you think if we don't act with racial motivations in mind, that eventually the problem will fix itself.  Well, the post-Civil War era until the 1960s says that's a bad idea.  History shows that if you ignore racism, it spreads and becomes standard and accepted and simply 'the way things are done around here, boy'.

So, ignoring the problem is basically the same as endorsing it.  Are we creating some resentment with white people by using Affirmative Action and black-only scholarships and stuff like that?  Probably, some, yeah.

I'd bet good money that they'll all get over it and most will complain about something else in a few days after fuming over 'hand outs' and silly shiat like that.

All in all, again, if you show me a solution that works and isn't based around racial preference, then lemme see it.

But it has to work.  And saying 'ignore them long enough and they'll stop' is not a solution.
 
2013-05-15 06:21:25 PM

JesseL: Infernalist: Oh, the 'solutions' to that discrimination and racism already exist. They have had these solutions for years, the only problem is, people find a way to get around them, bypass them, ignore them.

Don't like black people? Refuse to hire them because they lack enough experience. Or they're overqualified. Or the position's already filled.

Don't want certain races in your apartments? Tell them that they don't make enough to qualify. Or their references didn't check out.

The racism isn't open and obvious anymore. It's quiet and subtle and hidden behind smiles and apologetic words.

Now, is my solution racist? Maybe. I don't really 'care' what it's called. As far as I see, it's a necessary evil, required because of the actions of others. I'm pretty sure that most minorities don't 'like' having to rely on Affirmative Action and would much rather make their way in the world on their own merits, but too many people exist in this country that would simply ignore those merits and reward other less deserving men because of irrational hatred based on race.

And as long as those racists exist, then I see the need for that balancing hand to try and minimize their impact.

And you still don't see that racism begets more racism?

If existing racists have to keep quiet and operate subtly that's bad, but at least they're not spreading their ideas and if they try they can be subject to shame and ridicule. Eventually there will be very few of them left.

If institutional racism continues to exist, it's a constant reminder that people can be treated differently based on their skin color. That guarantees that it will continue to feed entitlement, resentment, and the notion that our skin makes us different.


Two wrongs do make a right.

And it's not wrong, because it's used to balance out another wrong.

It makes perfect sense.
 
2013-05-15 06:21:33 PM

umad: Infernalist: I still got fired on a number of occasions

I have news for you cupcake. You weren't fired "on a number of occasions" because you are a "good guy." After reading the thread, I am positive that you are the type of person who refuses to take responsibility for your mistakes and sweeps them under the rug. Nobody wants to employ people like you since little problems tend to become big problems when you are around.


No u.
 
2013-05-15 06:21:49 PM

JesseL: Infernalist: Oh, I reported most of them. Quietly. A few of them were demoted.

Mostly, though, I'd end up being fired after a couple of weeks for something stupid.

but, hey, at least I can look myself in the mirror in the morning.

Why would you do it quietly? That shiat needs to be loudly and publicly stomped on. People like that need to be exposed and shamed. Racism is like fungus, it grows in the dark and where it has plenty of BS to feed it. Your style of action will only keep it going.


The dude got fired for doing the right thing...I think you might cut him a LITTLE slack.  He's not the problem.
 
2013-05-15 06:23:08 PM

Infernalist: umad: Infernalist: I still got fired on a number of occasions

I have news for you cupcake. You weren't fired "on a number of occasions" because you are a "good guy." After reading the thread, I am positive that you are the type of person who refuses to take responsibility for your mistakes and sweeps them under the rug. Nobody wants to employ people like you since little problems tend to become big problems when you are around.

No u.


I own up to my mistakes. I have also never been fired.
 
2013-05-15 06:24:17 PM

PunGent: The dude got fired for doing the right thing


Bullshiat.
 
2013-05-15 06:24:24 PM

umad: Infernalist: umad: Infernalist: I still got fired on a number of occasions

I have news for you cupcake. You weren't fired "on a number of occasions" because you are a "good guy." After reading the thread, I am positive that you are the type of person who refuses to take responsibility for your mistakes and sweeps them under the rug. Nobody wants to employ people like you since little problems tend to become big problems when you are around.

No u.

I own up to my mistakes. I have also never been fired.


okay
 
2013-05-15 06:25:45 PM

Infernalist: See, you think if we don't act with racial motivations in mind, that eventually the problem will fix itself. Well, the post-Civil War era until the 1960s says that's a bad idea. History shows that if you ignore racism, it spreads and becomes standard and accepted and simply 'the way things are done around here, boy'.


FFS. You know there's a world of difference between outlawing segregation (which is what the civil rights movement was about) and making it official policy (which is what affirmative action and race base scholarships are about), right?
 
2013-05-15 06:26:02 PM

Infernalist: lennavan: Infernalist: Your mere existence as a member of the social majority in this country has given you advantages that you've plainly never even considered.

For example: When was the last time you were stopped because you resembled a suspected perpetrator of a nearby crime?

I don't follow what you're arguing here.  Minorities get stopped by cops more often, therefore they deserve special treatment in college admissions, scholarships, hiring practices and so on?

Wait, that's not it.  Are you saying "some cops are racist against minorities, therefore it's okay to allow  societal racism against whites?"

Because I'll tell you what, I bet a few white people would be more than happy to drop by the local PD a few times a year if it gets their kids access to the same college scholarships and lower college admissions requirements.

What I'm saying, very plainly and very simply, is that being white means never getting pulled over because you vaguely resemble a suspect in a nearby crime.

Being white means, you never get automatically and quietly rejected for employment or from qualifying for a house/apartment because you're white.

You start off at first base, while everyone else has to successfully hit to get on base.

Being white is awesome.  Go check out the Chris Rock skit on being white.


Being white is never a cause for being pulled over? As a white person who has been cuffed and put in the back of a police car not once but twice for being in the ghetto after dark, that's bullshiat.

White people are never arrested on vague descriptions? As someone whose neighbor and good friend was arrested for rape because he fit the description (5'10" scraggly white guy) of the perp and was out on his porch at the wrong time - that's bullshiat.

And as someone who has not gotten jobs for my political beliefs (you're not a good fit) and personal appearance (your hair is too long), the idea that whites can't be passed over for bullshiat reasons is itself bullshiat.

Note that I'm NOT saying that black people can't experience these things. And I'm NOT saying that when black people do experience racism it is somehow unimportant because I have also experienced racism.

I'm saying that your strawman that white people have perfect lives where they never experience the sharp end of discrimination is just that - a strawman composed of bullshiat.
 
2013-05-15 06:28:54 PM

JesseL: Infernalist: See, you think if we don't act with racial motivations in mind, that eventually the problem will fix itself. Well, the post-Civil War era until the 1960s says that's a bad idea. History shows that if you ignore racism, it spreads and becomes standard and accepted and simply 'the way things are done around here, boy'.

FFS. You know there's a world of difference between outlawing segregation (which is what the civil rights movement was about) and making it official policy (which is what affirmative action and race base scholarships are about), right?


I'll refer to you to the LBJ quote above in the thread about unshackling someone's legs halfway through the race.
 
2013-05-15 06:30:16 PM

Elegy: Infernalist: lennavan: Infernalist: Your mere existence as a member of the social majority in this country has given you advantages that you've plainly never even considered.

For example: When was the last time you were stopped because you resembled a suspected perpetrator of a nearby crime?

I don't follow what you're arguing here.  Minorities get stopped by cops more often, therefore they deserve special treatment in college admissions, scholarships, hiring practices and so on?

Wait, that's not it.  Are you saying "some cops are racist against minorities, therefore it's okay to allow  societal racism against whites?"

Because I'll tell you what, I bet a few white people would be more than happy to drop by the local PD a few times a year if it gets their kids access to the same college scholarships and lower college admissions requirements.

What I'm saying, very plainly and very simply, is that being white means never getting pulled over because you vaguely resemble a suspect in a nearby crime.

Being white means, you never get automatically and quietly rejected for employment or from qualifying for a house/apartment because you're white.

You start off at first base, while everyone else has to successfully hit to get on base.

Being white is awesome.  Go check out the Chris Rock skit on being white.

Being white is never a cause for being pulled over? As a white person who has been cuffed and put in the back of a police car not once but twice for being in the ghetto after dark, that's bullshiat.

White people are never arrested on vague descriptions? As someone whose neighbor and good friend was arrested for rape because he fit the description (5'10" scraggly white guy) of the perp and was out on his porch at the wrong time - that's bullshiat.

And as someone who has not gotten jobs for my political beliefs (you're not a good fit) and personal appearance (your hair is too long), the idea that whites can't be passed over for bullshiat reasons is itself bullshiat ...


You can cut your hair and not talk about politics.

What do you suggest black people do about people who refuse hire them because they're....black?
 
2013-05-15 06:30:18 PM

Infernalist: We spent 100 years after the Civil War 'hoping' that the examples set by the abolitionists and men like Abraham Lincoln would convince the racists to...lighten up.

That didn't work out. Active effort is what caused the Civil Rights movement to succeed, by meeting that institutional racism head-on. Not by having some white people just 'treat everyone the same'. By insisting and 'demanding' that even racists had to treat people equally.

That process 'race blindness' will NEVER work as long as there are active racists who simply refuse to abandon their race-based views and their actions to discriminate because of those views. And we can't let their actions be the only actions influencing that struggle.


I've bolded the important part of your post. I've also italicized the key part of that part. You're right, it wasn't just by having white people treat everyone the same, it was by the civil rights movement treating the racist white people as equals and giving them no more authority than they would anyone else. It's not a matter of 'making' other people treat you as a equal, it's a matter treating them as if they're not even in a position to make such a choice.

Planck was talking about science, but the sentiment works just as well for social issues, "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it."

If you make it X vs. Y, you're making it worse for everyone and keeping racism around for longer. If you go, "people who judge based on race are backwards arseholes," society irons itself out in a few generations. Nope, but we're Americans - we figure if one side just yells juuuust louder enough than the other side their opinion will become the cultural conscience tomorrow. Disdain for racists is a much more powerful tool in the long run than, "X gets a bonus because history." I mean, unless your goal is to alienate people and maintain the status quo of racial tension. if that's what you're out for, good job.

If you want to level the playing field, strip the names, race, gender off the scholarships and and do it based on economic need. If a black kid has been at a disadvantage all his life, his economic standing would reflect that, would it not? By taking that approach you catch anyone who was a victim of a hard life coming from systematic discrimination AND those who were the victim of a hard life steaming from pretty much every other cause. Given two identical GPAs, you cannot go, "well the white kid must have worked less for it," but the kids who's household income is $8k a year? I don't care what color that kid is, they did a hell of a job graduating.

/rant
 
2013-05-15 06:30:55 PM
I suppose it was already italicized, but "equal."
 
2013-05-15 06:31:57 PM

Infernalist: I'd bet good money that they'll all get over it and most will complain about something else in a few days after fuming over 'hand outs' and silly shiat like that.


Yep - nothing says "petty, transient grievance" like watching years and years of your kid's disciplined study habits, wise prioritization of time, and academic performance amount to nothing when their scholarship opportunities and enrollment slots are given, by law, to lower-performing students because of the color of their skin.

Oh well! They'll get over it in a day or two!
 
2013-05-15 06:34:13 PM
Reading through this thread is hilarious. WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THOSE POOR OPPRESSED WHITE AMERICAN MALES!?
 
2013-05-15 06:35:30 PM

Infernalist: JesseL: Infernalist: See, you think if we don't act with racial motivations in mind, that eventually the problem will fix itself. Well, the post-Civil War era until the 1960s says that's a bad idea. History shows that if you ignore racism, it spreads and becomes standard and accepted and simply 'the way things are done around here, boy'.

FFS. You know there's a world of difference between outlawing segregation (which is what the civil rights movement was about) and making it official policy (which is what affirmative action and race base scholarships are about), right?

I'll refer to you to the LBJ quote above in the thread about unshackling someone's legs halfway through the race.


Much better to then shackle someone else's legs and call it "fair."
 
2013-05-15 06:35:58 PM

BigNumber12: Infernalist: I'd bet good money that they'll all get over it and most will complain about something else in a few days after fuming over 'hand outs' and silly shiat like that.

Yep - nothing says "petty, transient grievance" like watching years and years of your kid's disciplined study habits, wise prioritization of time, and academic performance amount to nothing when their scholarship opportunities and enrollment slots are given, by law, to lower-performing students because of the color of their skin.

Oh well! They'll get over it in a day or two!


Yes they will. Because of all the privilege that every single white person will have and the countless hypothetical injustices that the minority student will have faced as opposed to the white student.

I mean, we can make it income/class based but then the Indian/Arab/Chinese students will completely fill our halls (not Jews though, that's antisemitic), so racial preference are the only way to go.
 
2013-05-15 06:36:03 PM

ProfessorOhki: Infernalist: We spent 100 years after the Civil War 'hoping' that the examples set by the abolitionists and men like Abraham Lincoln would convince the racists to...lighten up.

That didn't work out. Active effort is what caused the Civil Rights movement to succeed, by meeting that institutional racism head-on. Not by having some white people just 'treat everyone the same'. By insisting and 'demanding' that even racists had to treat people equally.

That process 'race blindness' will NEVER work as long as there are active racists who simply refuse to abandon their race-based views and their actions to discriminate because of those views. And we can't let their actions be the only actions influencing that struggle.

I've bolded the important part of your post. I've also italicized the key part of that part. You're right, it wasn't just by having white people treat everyone the same, it was by the civil rights movement treating the racist white people as equals and giving them no more authority than they would anyone else. It's not a matter of 'making' other people treat you as a equal, it's a matter treating them as if they're not even in a position to make such a choice.

Planck was talking about science, but the sentiment works just as well for social issues, "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it."

If you make it X vs. Y, you're making it worse for everyone and keeping racism around for longer. If you go, "people who judge based on race are backwards arseholes," society irons itself out in a few generations. Nope, but we're Americans - we figure if one side just yells juuuust louder enough than the other side their opinion will become the cultural conscience tomorrow. Disdain for racists is a much more powerful tool in the long run than, "X gets a bonus because history." I mean, unless your ...


In the long run, and in an ideal world where people actually change their attitudes based on scorning, and that scorning actually 'happens'...Maybe you'd be right.

But we have a world where Republican would-be nominees for the Presidency do everything shy of calling him a 'ni**er' on national TV and nothing ever happens to him.  Where the Republican nominee puts on TANNER to appear browner so as to appeal to Hispanics and his party and companions don't scorn him over it.

We live in a world where racism exists, alive and well and barely veiled most of the time.  And simply having people call them 'dumb racists' doesn't work when they don't 'care' what us liberal bleeding heart idiots think of them.  They take pride in scorning 'us' for our beliefs in equality.

So, no.  Simply scorning them verbally doesn't work.  At all.

So, find me a solution that 'works'.
 
2013-05-15 06:36:57 PM

Infernalist: I'll refer to you to the LBJ quote above in the thread about unshackling someone's legs halfway through the race.


That's a stupid metaphor and LBJ was a douchebag of epic proportions.

There is no contest, there is no "half-way point", and there is no undoing the past. The situation can't be forced into fairness at this point.
 
2013-05-15 06:38:29 PM

BigNumber12: Infernalist: I'd bet good money that they'll all get over it and most will complain about something else in a few days after fuming over 'hand outs' and silly shiat like that.

Yep - nothing says "petty, transient grievance" like watching years and years of your kid's disciplined study habits, wise prioritization of time, and academic performance amount to nothing when their scholarship opportunities and enrollment slots are given, by law, to lower-performing students because of the color of their skin.

Oh well! They'll get over it in a day or two!


Now do the one about how the black guys are gonna take our white women away.
 
2013-05-15 06:38:38 PM
Infernalist:

The racism isn't open and obvious anymore.  It's quiet and subtle and hidden behind smiles and apologetic words.

THIS. My nephew just turned eighteen this year, and is finishing up his first year of college. When he entered his teens, just before he started junior high school, his father and I sat down with him and told him about being a black man in the world, and about this country in particular.

About keeping his hands on the steering wheel when pulled over by a cop, about how to make sure you take your hood off whenever you enter a store and how they will watch your every move, about how much harder he will have to work in school and afterward than his white classmates just to stay on par with them, about all the ins and outs and etiquette that he must navigate if he wants to stay safe and out of prison in this country. It helped that his father was a cop and later a corrections officer.

As we spoke to him I found myself wishing that we did not have to do this, to talk to him about these things. I'm sure this is not a conversation that white parents have with their children, and I wished that this were so with him. But it isn't, and so as my father told me, we told him.

He is doing well now, and is heeding our advice... he did get one traffic ticket (rolling stop on campus), but that's about the extent of any "trouble" he's ever been in.

No one "likes" thinking that they got the job because of some special program, or an apartment or house because there was a law that made it happen, or that their hard work would be negated by a system of quotas or set-asides. But a realist realizes that there are still people out there who will succumb to their prejudices and biases, be they racial, economic, sexual or gender, and they will do what they can to prevent your success "just because".
 
2013-05-15 06:38:48 PM

BigNumber12: Infernalist: JesseL: Infernalist: See, you think if we don't act with racial motivations in mind, that eventually the problem will fix itself. Well, the post-Civil War era until the 1960s says that's a bad idea. History shows that if you ignore racism, it spreads and becomes standard and accepted and simply 'the way things are done around here, boy'.

FFS. You know there's a world of difference between outlawing segregation (which is what the civil rights movement was about) and making it official policy (which is what affirmative action and race base scholarships are about), right?

I'll refer to you to the LBJ quote above in the thread about unshackling someone's legs halfway through the race.

Much better to then shackle someone else's legs and call it "fair."


Until the guy behind catches up?  Yeah, that 'is' fair.

If you're angry, blame our older generations for being retarded.
 
2013-05-15 06:42:33 PM

Bumblefark: BigNumber12: Infernalist: I'd bet good money that they'll all get over it and most will complain about something else in a few days after fuming over 'hand outs' and silly shiat like that.

Yep - nothing says "petty, transient grievance" like watching years and years of your kid's disciplined study habits, wise prioritization of time, and academic performance amount to nothing when their scholarship opportunities and enrollment slots are given, by law, to lower-performing students because of the color of their skin.

Oh well! They'll get over it in a day or two!

Now do the one about how the black guys are gonna take our white women away.


Do the one where you say something stupid and irrelev... ah, you're on it.
 
2013-05-15 06:44:07 PM

rewind2846: Infernalist:

The racism isn't open and obvious anymore.  It's quiet and subtle and hidden behind smiles and apologetic words.

THIS. My nephew just turned eighteen this year, and is finishing up his first year of college. When he entered his teens, just before he started junior high school, his father and I sat down with him and told him about being a black man in the world, and about this country in particular.

About keeping his hands on the steering wheel when pulled over by a cop, about how to make sure you take your hood off whenever you enter a store and how they will watch your every move, about how much harder he will have to work in school and afterward than his white classmates just to stay on par with them, about all the ins and outs and etiquette that he must navigate if he wants to stay safe and out of prison in this country. It helped that his father was a cop and later a corrections officer.

As we spoke to him I found myself wishing that we did not have to do this, to talk to him about these things. I'm sure this is not a conversation that white parents have with their children, and I wished that this were so with him. But it isn't, and so as my father told me, we told him.

He is doing well now, and is heeding our advice... he did get one traffic ticket (rolling stop on campus), but that's about the extent of any "trouble" he's ever been in.

No one "likes" thinking that they got the job because of some special program, or an apartment or house because there was a law that made it happen, or that their hard work would be negated by a system of quotas or set-asides. But a realist realizes that there are still people out there who will succumb to their prejudices and biases, be they racial, economic, sexual or gender, and they will do what they can to prevent your success "just because".


A lot of minds were just blown by your referring to having to have to have a 'talk' with your kid about how the world works and the extra stuff he has to do just to be treated equally.

They think if we just 'ignore' the racism and scorn the openly racist ones, that it'll all go away in a few generations on its own.
 
2013-05-15 06:46:41 PM

umad: PunGent: The dude got fired for doing the right thing

Bullshiat.


Are...umad?  :)
 
2013-05-15 06:50:48 PM

special20: boarch: Lucky you, I paid my way in full even after making the dean's list twice. If I were a little less white... it would of been free.

You sound "aggie"


Agricultural?
 
2013-05-15 06:51:16 PM

Infernalist: No, you're grasping the point. As of right 'now', the white population is the majority race in America. It's going to 'stay' the majority race for...ever, probably. As far as we're concerned, at least. That certainly won't change for a few hundred years, so it's a moot point for our discussion.

Now, at some point in the somewhat near future, the sum total of the minority races in America will outnumber the white population.

But that doesn't mean that the white population is suddenly a minority in America. The white race will STILL be the majority race in America.


No, it won't. It will be a plurality.

Consider parliamentary governments, with the various disparate minor parties. You'll often see "coalition" or "minority" governments. Those are ones run by a party that has less than 50% of the seats. No one party has a majority. But the largest single party has a plurality. But that plurality is not necessarily the governing party.

Hell, even the largest demographic group may not have political power. Consider pretty much any colonial government ever, or South Africa pre-Mandela. Or Syria. Or Norman England. Or, strangely, Sparta.
 
2013-05-15 06:51:17 PM

BigNumber12: Bumblefark: BigNumber12: Infernalist: I'd bet good money that they'll all get over it and most will complain about something else in a few days after fuming over 'hand outs' and silly shiat like that.

Yep - nothing says "petty, transient grievance" like watching years and years of your kid's disciplined study habits, wise prioritization of time, and academic performance amount to nothing when their scholarship opportunities and enrollment slots are given, by law, to lower-performing students because of the color of their skin.

Oh well! They'll get over it in a day or two!

Now do the one about how the black guys are gonna take our white women away.

Do the one where you say something stupid and irrelev... ah, you're on it.


I see you're among the irony impaired. Ok -- I'll try to speak in literal terms, and slowly enough that you might be able to follow what I am saying:

You have no idea what you're talking about. You are depicting a practice that essentially has no bearing on reality, and exists mostly as the fevered nightmare of closeted bigots everywhere. I think you are a closeted bigot. You sound like a closeted bigot.

Any of this getting through, sport?
 
2013-05-15 06:52:55 PM

Infernalist: So, find me a solution that 'works'.


How is your favored solution working? As far as I can tell it's not.

Meanwhile; how long did we try desegregation and equal rights before we jumped back into favoring institutional racism again? Maybe a year?
 
2013-05-15 06:53:33 PM
Negro Please!
s10.postimg.org
 
2013-05-15 06:53:41 PM

keepitcherry: Reading through this thread is hilarious. WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THOSE POOR OPPRESSED WHITE AMERICAN MALES!?


The poorest, least healthy people in the country, at the time of the WWI draft, were poor Appalachian whites.
 
2013-05-15 06:54:42 PM

Infernalist: Until the guy behind catches up?  Yeah, that 'is' fair.


The metaphor is simplistic. How do you measure "catching up?"

Infernalist: If you're angry, blame our older generations for being retarded.


I do. You, however, seem much happier to blame, and punish, a 17-year-old college applicant who had nothing to do with the problem. Not to mention happily handicapping our country's development and competitiveness against the rest of the world by denying opportunities to more qualified applicants because it "feels good" and it's "doing something."
 
2013-05-15 06:55:55 PM

Bumblefark: Now do the one about how the black guys are gonna take our white women away.


But only the fat ones, it seems.
 
2013-05-15 06:56:58 PM

Infernalist: In the long run, and in an ideal world where people actually change their attitudes based on scorning, and that scorning actually 'happens'...Maybe you'd be right.

But we have a world where Republican would-be nominees for the Presidency do everything shy of calling him a 'ni**er' on national TV and nothing ever happens to him. Where the Republican nominee puts on TANNER to appear browner so as to appeal to Hispanics and his party and companions don't scorn him over it.

We live in a world where racism exists, alive and well and barely veiled most of the time. And simply having people call them 'dumb racists' doesn't work when they don't 'care' what us liberal bleeding heart idiots think of them. They take pride in scorning 'us' for our beliefs in equality.

So, no. Simply scorning them verbally doesn't work. At all.

So, find me a solution that 'works'.


Is your generation more or less racist than your parents'? Is the generation after yours more or less racist than yours? Sweeping cultural changes take time. I realize that doesn't help the people in the mean-time, but pretending there's anything that's going to lead to a solution now is reckless. And honestly, going, "it's your job to make up for what white people" when your ancestors weren't even in the US until the 50s... you see how that could create a creeping adversarial feeling where none would have existed otherwise?

I'm not saying that telling of some racist douche is going to fix them. I'm saying if the general consensus of society is "that's not acceptable" will eventually fade it out. No, I have no idea how many generations it'll take, but I still think it'll succeed quicker than a constant us v. them mentality.
 
2013-05-15 06:59:21 PM

Bumblefark: I see you're among the irony impaired. Ok -- I'll try to speak in literal terms, and slowly enough that you might be able to follow what I am saying:

You have no idea what you're talking about. You are depicting a practice that essentially has no bearing on reality, and exists mostly as the fevered nightmare of closeted bigots everywhere. I think you are a closeted bigot. You sound like a closeted bigot.

Any of this getting through, sport?


That's sweet - things don't exist because you say they don't.

Also, congratulations on the fashionable use of the insult "bigot." It seems to be all the rage these days when attempting to shut down dialogue and intimidate one's opposition into silence.
 
2013-05-15 07:03:35 PM

BigNumber12: Bumblefark: I see you're among the irony impaired. Ok -- I'll try to speak in literal terms, and slowly enough that you might be able to follow what I am saying:

You have no idea what you're talking about. You are depicting a practice that essentially has no bearing on reality, and exists mostly as the fevered nightmare of closeted bigots everywhere. I think you are a closeted bigot. You sound like a closeted bigot.

Any of this getting through, sport?

That's sweet - things don't exist because you say they don't.

Also, congratulations on the fashionable use of the insult "bigot." It seems to be all the rage these days when attempting to shut down dialogue and intimidate one's opposition into silence.


Well, then let's keep the conversation going. Please point me to the law that apportions enrollment slots to less capable students, based on their skin color.

It's cool. I'll wait.
 
2013-05-15 07:03:47 PM

rewind2846: About keeping his hands on the steering wheel when pulled over by a cop, about how to make sure you take your hood off whenever you enter a store and how they will watch your every move, about how much harder he will have to work in school and afterward than his white classmates just to stay on par with them, about all the ins and outs and etiquette that he must navigate if he wants to stay safe and out of prison in this country. It helped that his father was a cop and later a corrections officer.

As we spoke to him I found myself wishing that we did not have to do this, to talk to him about these things. I'm sure this is not a conversation that white parents have with their children, and I wished that this were so with him. But it isn't, and so as my father told me, we told him.


Funny, I heard both, "keep hands on the steering wheel when pulled over, don't reach for registration until asked" and "don't obscure your face in a bank" as a kid. Maybe it just a matter of having parents who don't want you to end up in potentially dangerous and wholly avoidable situations? Never got the "you'll have to work harder in school" one though. Got the "you're a smart kid, go do a good job" one instead... Which is good; the former would have probably put me in a depressed mindset and made me question if school was even worth it.
 
2013-05-15 07:08:03 PM

ikanreed: Wow, there are sure a lot of "victims" of "reverse-racism" in here.  At least it's totally apparent none of them are the slightest bit educated, thus validating their premise.


Oh? Here's a challenge: Find a scholarship for caucasions only that pays more than half their tuition as long as their GPA stays above 2.8. No other real restrictions.
 
2013-05-15 07:21:47 PM

Bumblefark: BigNumber12: Bumblefark: I see you're among the irony impaired. Ok -- I'll try to speak in literal terms, and slowly enough that you might be able to follow what I am saying:

You have no idea what you're talking about. You are depicting a practice that essentially has no bearing on reality, and exists mostly as the fevered nightmare of closeted bigots everywhere. I think you are a closeted bigot. You sound like a closeted bigot.

Any of this getting through, sport?

That's sweet - things don't exist because you say they don't.

Also, congratulations on the fashionable use of the insult "bigot." It seems to be all the rage these days when attempting to shut down dialogue and intimidate one's opposition into silence.

Well, then let's keep the conversation going. Please point me to the law that apportions enrollment slots to less capable students, based on their skin color.

It's cool. I'll wait.


There's no law saying that people must discriminate against minorities as well, so clearly discrimination against them do not exist.

freemarketmojo.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-05-15 07:28:10 PM

Bumblefark: Well, then let's keep the conversation going. Please point me to the law that apportions enrollment slots to less capable students, based on their skin color.


Your careful wording is technically accurate - because of pushback like that in Regents of the University of California v. Bakke, Universities, supported by the Supreme Court (Grutter v. Bollinger), have been very careful to obfuscate and portray their selection methods as "complex," so as to avoid providing physical evidence of a quota system. So, I'll give you that.

Not calling it that, however, does not change the fact that race-based admissions processes like that challenged in Grutter do in fact exist, with the goal of promoting diversity. The very existence of such a program, by definition, is evidence that racial factors are being used to manually alter the recipients of enrollment slots.
 
2013-05-15 07:28:54 PM

super_grass: Bumblefark: BigNumber12: Bumblefark: I see you're among the irony impaired. Ok -- I'll try to speak in literal terms, and slowly enough that you might be able to follow what I am saying:

You have no idea what you're talking about. You are depicting a practice that essentially has no bearing on reality, and exists mostly as the fevered nightmare of closeted bigots everywhere. I think you are a closeted bigot. You sound like a closeted bigot.

Any of this getting through, sport?

That's sweet - things don't exist because you say they don't.

Also, congratulations on the fashionable use of the insult "bigot." It seems to be all the rage these days when attempting to shut down dialogue and intimidate one's opposition into silence.

Well, then let's keep the conversation going. Please point me to the law that apportions enrollment slots to less capable students, based on their skin color.

It's cool. I'll wait.

There's no law saying that people must discriminate against minorities as well, so clearly discrimination against them do not exist.

[freemarketmojo.files.wordpress.com image 405x271]


Why, yes, I *do* think the goal posts look better back there.

Nice jerb.

/should I explain why that chart doesn't prove what you think it does?
 
2013-05-15 07:30:14 PM

xmasbaby: I have some GREAT news for you! I just did a highly scientific study of pulling up Google, entering the phrase "percent women in ______ school " and quickly substituted "law" "medical" and "journalism." Looks like women are currently over represented in journalism school and roughly equally represented in medical and law school. When I substituted simply "college" the numbers jumped even higher. Apparently MEN are now underrepresented in US colleges and it may be time for us to start getting some of that exclusive, no womenz allowed, free money.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/fashion/07campus.html?pagewanted=a ll &_r=0

http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2009/aug/18/women-dominate-j-school-enr ol lment/

Anyway, I think we can safely do away with these silly, "women only" scholarships. Don't you?


The numbers are even worse when you compare advanced degrees.  Fewer men are going for their masters degree.  One theory is that's because the men end up having to find work to provide for a new family while the women have the luxury of staying in school.
 
2013-05-15 07:36:10 PM

PunGent: umad: PunGent: The dude got fired for doing the right thing

Bullshiat.

Are...umad?  :)


Nope. Just not gullible.
 
2013-05-15 07:36:41 PM

Magorn: Mattyb710: Magorn: lennavan: Well yeah, a white's only scholarship is bigoted.  These however, are not:

Dr. Robert E. Campbell Memorial Scholarship for an American minority student in journalism
Gruner + Jahr Magazine Scholarship for female students interested in magazine writing
Phyllis and William Michelfelder Scholarship for a female print student
Trudi Stamm Scholarship, for a woman from New York State
Westinghouse Broadcasting Co Scholarship in memory of the late LaRue Heard Johnson ('68) for minority students
Jacobo Timerman Scholarship in memory of Jacobo Timerman (for a Latin American student)
Sylvia L. Wilson ('85) Memorial Scholarship, for an African-American woman specializing in print journalism

That's just the Columbia University Journalism school.
/there were no "whites only" journalism school scholarships, that's bigoted, remember?

yeah, I mean both Whites AND Blacks were an oppressed minority who suffered from YEARS of institutionalized discrimination in this country,  Remember those horrible "James Croworthington III" laws in the deep south that deprived blacks of their rights to vote and forced them to attend ridiculously underfunded schools, sit in the back of buses and use the back door at lunch counters?

I've been trying to stay out of this thread, but your post is forcing me to reply.

Are you actually making that argument that because a certain group of people have been discriminated against in the past that it is acceptable for them to discriminate against others now?

YES, and I can't understand why you would think otherwise.  Your argument could be re-phrased as "are you actually making the argument that because Ariel Castro, forcibly imprisoned 3 women for 20 years that he should now be forcibly imprisoned for the rest of his life?"   The answer, of course, is yes.  Justice requires it.   An important part of equal treatment under the law  is that there be a repairative remedy when it is found to have been violated.   You don't get to ...


Bad logic.  In one case a specific person committed a crime, will be convicted in a court, and sentenced for "fark you forever, asshole" prison. In the other case, you are automatically punishing an entire group of people because of something their ancestors may or may not have done.
 
2013-05-15 07:42:48 PM

Bumblefark: super_grass: Bumblefark: BigNumber12: Bumblefark: I see you're among the irony impaired. Ok -- I'll try to speak in literal terms, and slowly enough that you might be able to follow what I am saying:

You have no idea what you're talking about. You are depicting a practice that essentially has no bearing on reality, and exists mostly as the fevered nightmare of closeted bigots everywhere. I think you are a closeted bigot. You sound like a closeted bigot.

Any of this getting through, sport?

That's sweet - things don't exist because you say they don't.

Also, congratulations on the fashionable use of the insult "bigot." It seems to be all the rage these days when attempting to shut down dialogue and intimidate one's opposition into silence.

Well, then let's keep the conversation going. Please point me to the law that apportions enrollment slots to less capable students, based on their skin color.

It's cool. I'll wait.

There's no law saying that people must discriminate against minorities as well, so clearly discrimination against them do not exist.

[freemarketmojo.files.wordpress.com image 405x271]

Why, yes, I *do* think the goal posts look better back there.

Nice jerb.

/should I explain why that chart doesn't prove what you think it does?


Are you implying that policies don't have side-effects that are not written down? There's nothing wrong with pointing that out.

By the way, passive aggressive dismissal of contradictory data isn't going to prove you any more right either. If you think there's more to the argument, explain it through instead of being wry.
 
2013-05-15 07:50:07 PM

Infernalist: Elegy: Infernalist: lennavan: Infernalist: Your mere existence as a member of the social majority in this country has given you advantages that you've plainly never even considered.

For example: When was the last time you were stopped because you resembled a suspected perpetrator of a nearby crime?

I don't follow what you're arguing here.  Minorities get stopped by cops more often, therefore they deserve special treatment in college admissions, scholarships, hiring practices and so on?

Wait, that's not it.  Are you saying "some cops are racist against minorities, therefore it's okay to allow  societal racism against whites?"

Because I'll tell you what, I bet a few white people would be more than happy to drop by the local PD a few times a year if it gets their kids access to the same college scholarships and lower college admissions requirements.

What I'm saying, very plainly and very simply, is that being white means never getting pulled over because you vaguely resemble a suspect in a nearby crime.

Being white means, you never get automatically and quietly rejected for employment or from qualifying for a house/apartment because you're white.

You start off at first base, while everyone else has to successfully hit to get on base.

Being white is awesome.  Go check out the Chris Rock skit on being white.

Being white is never a cause for being pulled over? As a white person who has been cuffed and put in the back of a police car not once but twice for being in the ghetto after dark, that's bullshiat.

White people are never arrested on vague descriptions? As someone whose neighbor and good friend was arrested for rape because he fit the description (5'10" scraggly white guy) of the perp and was out on his porch at the wrong time - that's bullshiat.

And as someone who has not gotten jobs for my political beliefs (you're not a good fit) and personal appearance (your hair is too long), the idea that whites can't be passed over for bullshiat reasons is itself bullshiat ...

You can cut your hair and not talk about politics.

What do you suggest black people do about people who refuse hire them because they're....black?


Did you miss the part where I fully recognized that black people do in fact experience racism and that my own experience does not lessen that?

We were actually talking about your bullshiat comment that white people will never experience discrimination.

It's ok, I think I found your problem sport. Your cited authority on the life of white people is.... Chris Rock. LOL oh wait you're serious let me laugh harder.

You should probably get to know some white people at some point in your life, else you'll always be the racist that you are now.
 
2013-05-15 07:52:40 PM

Infernalist: Now, is my solution racist? Maybe. I don't really 'care' what it's called. As far as I see, it's a necessary evil, required because of the actions of others.


At least you admit it.  We're not gonna get any further on this, I know.
 
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