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(Fox News)   Couple sues hospital for unnecessarily clarifying their newly adopted son or daughter, whichever they wanted   (foxnews.com) divider line 65
    More: Interesting, South Carolina, Department of Social Services, sex assignment, Medical University of South Carolina, informed consent, female genitalia  
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8199 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 May 2013 at 8:48 AM (48 weeks ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-15 08:55:41 AM
Headline makes it sound frivolous, but they're suing because the hospital looked at a baby born with both sets of genitalia and essentially flipped a coin as to which they chopped off. Now there's some poor eight-year-old with a male mind and female genitalia.
 
2013-05-15 08:57:56 AM
Yep. They take off the sausage because it's easier with no way of knowing if it's right.
 
2013-05-15 08:58:29 AM
Nice to see medical science still has no idea what to do with intersexed children. All the options have big consequences for both body and mind. And none of them are good.
 
2013-05-15 09:00:14 AM

Gunther: Headline makes it sound frivolous, but they're suing because the hospital looked at a baby born with both sets of genitalia and essentially flipped a coin as to which they chopped off. Now there's some poor eight-year-old with a male mind and female genitalia.


No they are suing the state, which had custody of the child at the time, for making this decision.
 
2013-05-15 09:01:29 AM

Gunther: Headline makes it sound frivolous, but they're suing because the hospital looked at a baby born with both sets of genitalia and essentially flipped a coin as to which they chopped off. Now there's some poor eight-year-old with a male mind and female genitalia.


Did they flip a coin, or check the DNA? XX vs XY might be relevant information. How about the testes/ovaries? Was there a pair of each, or one set? That might be relevant information. The kid was 16 months old, so it's not like they hadn't had time to run any tests.
 
2013-05-15 09:01:32 AM
So, they named her Jamie Lee instead of Curtis.
 
2013-05-15 09:01:42 AM
But I thought this sort of thing wasn't a choice, and people are all born the way they should be?
 
2013-05-15 09:02:04 AM
They are making the case for lack of informed consent, but at the time of the surgery was not the child a ward of the state and so empowered to make such decisions for the child?  As the course of action taken is fairly standard
 
2013-05-15 09:03:32 AM
How to clarify a child:

1. Heat the unsalted child in a heavy-duty saucepan over very low heat, until it's melted. Let simmer gently until the foam rises to the top of the melted child. The child may splatter a bit, so be careful.
2. Once the child stops spluttering, and no more foam seems to be rising to the surface, remove from heat and skim off the foam with a spoon. (It can be saved and added to soups, bread doughs, polenta, pilaf, or a bowl of warm oatmeal.)
Don't worry about getting every last bit; you can remove the rest when straining it.
3. Line a mesh strainer with a few layers of cheesecloth or gauze (in France, I use étamine, which is cotton muslin) and set the strainer over a heatproof container.
4. Carefully pour the melted child through the cheesecloth-lined strainer into the container, leaving behind any solids from the bottom of the pan.
 
2013-05-15 09:03:34 AM
My mailman also has a penis and a vagina. Whenever my mail gets stuffed in my mailbox, I open the window and shout "Go frkk yourself".
 
2013-05-15 09:04:26 AM
So does the child grow up as and identify as a lesbian, or do we need a new term for a mis-assigned hermaphrodite?  Not to be frivolous, but from LG to LGB to LGBT to LGBTxyxx(?) etc. is eventually going to get too big to fit on a bumper sticker.  Eventually there will be just "people" and gender roles will be significant to those individual persons involved a whole lot, and society in general not so much.

Good luck to him.
 
2013-05-15 09:12:09 AM

croesius: But I thought this sort of thing wasn't a choice, and people are all born the way they should be?


Come on, that's just lazy.
 
2013-05-15 09:14:47 AM
Wow.  I hope they get a huge settlement .  I watched a documentary about David Reimer and his story was one of the most tragic things I've ever heard of.  Money for counseling or therapy might have saved him.

Best of luck to that boy and his family.
 
2013-05-15 09:17:25 AM
They boiled it down to make broth? Man, that's harsh.
 
2013-05-15 09:20:37 AM

freetomato: Wow.  I hope they get a huge settlement .  I watched a documentary about David Reimer and his story was one of the most tragic things I've ever heard of.  Money for counseling or therapy might have saved him.

Best of luck to that boy and his family.



Girl. Gay girl.

static.guim.co.uk
 
2013-05-15 09:23:34 AM

JohnCarter: They are making the case for lack of informed consent, but at the time of the surgery was not the child a ward of the state and so empowered to make such decisions for the child?  As the course of action taken is fairly standard


The problem is that it was way too early to identify the gender of the brain. It may seem silly to most people because our brains naturally match our junk but it's a huge problem when it's wrong.

And just in case you think it's liberal hippy BS remember that there are people who cut off limbs because their brains don't recognize them as a valid part of the body.
 
2013-05-15 09:24:59 AM

Son of Thunder: Gunther: Headline makes it sound frivolous, but they're suing because the hospital looked at a baby born with both sets of genitalia and essentially flipped a coin as to which they chopped off. Now there's some poor eight-year-old with a male mind and female genitalia.

Did they flip a coin, or check the DNA? XX vs XY might be relevant information. How about the testes/ovaries? Was there a pair of each, or one set? That might be relevant information. The kid was 16 months old, so it's not like they hadn't had time to run any tests.


Sorry, society is too progressive to allow discrimination based on sexual chromosomes or the presence of functioning reproductive organs. The transsexual community fought against such hateful attitudes for generations, and they're not going to let their legal victory over biology be rolled back.

/better to destroy the foundations of medical science than admit some things can't be made completely equal in every way
 
2013-05-15 09:29:10 AM
These people are sue-happy parasites.  They're suing the state for something the state did before they even adopted the kid.  When I buy a used car and the front fender has a ding in it, I'm not allowed to sue the previous owner after I've purchased the car.  The dent is part of the deal.  Likewise, whatever surgery this kid prior to being parked out on the used kid lot is also part of the deal.
 
2013-05-15 09:31:10 AM
I wonder how much the parents can be blamed for this. If they ambiguously raised the child and confused it.

Had they raised her strictly as a girl would she want to be a boy now.

I'm not saying that IS what happened... just wondering out loud.

Also... is 8 not a little young to be deciding you want a gender change? Let the kid mature a little before sewing a penis on the poor girl.
 
2013-05-15 09:33:51 AM
And before anyone says she has a right to have a penis.

A penis is a privilege not a right.
 
2013-05-15 09:34:01 AM

Tatterdemalian: Son of Thunder: Gunther: Headline makes it sound frivolous, but they're suing because the hospital looked at a baby born with both sets of genitalia and essentially flipped a coin as to which they chopped off. Now there's some poor eight-year-old with a male mind and female genitalia.

Did they flip a coin, or check the DNA? XX vs XY might be relevant information. How about the testes/ovaries? Was there a pair of each, or one set? That might be relevant information. The kid was 16 months old, so it's not like they hadn't had time to run any tests.

Sorry, society is too progressive to allow discrimination based on sexual chromosomes or the presence of functioning reproductive organs. The transsexual community fought against such hateful attitudes for generations, and they're not going to let their legal victory over biology be rolled back.

/better to destroy the foundations of medical science than admit some things can't be made completely equal in every way


This wouldn't be such a dumb statement if biology hadn't already farked up for this kid.
 
2013-05-15 09:39:53 AM
Don't sweat it, kiddo. The world was a freak show way before you got here. We've got folks who think they're ponies, tigers... vampires for chrissakes.

Grab a drink while you figure out what you want to be. Might as well have fun with it.
 
2013-05-15 09:41:58 AM

CleanAndPure: I wonder how much the parents can be blamed for this. If they ambiguously raised the child and confused it.

Had they raised her strictly as a girl would she want to be a boy now.

I'm not saying that IS what happened... just wondering out loud.

Also... is 8 not a little young to be deciding you want a gender change? Let the kid mature a little before sewing a penis on the poor girl.


To answer your question read the David Reimer Wikipedia link posted above.
 
2013-05-15 09:48:44 AM
Picturescrazy

None of that rules out parental influence. Intentional or not.

Chances are that the child would have had a worse life had she been left a hermaphrodite.

Parents could very well have been raising child ambiguosly thus contributing to confusion (same as case above).

It could be this poor girl could never live as a woman and will have a sex change later.

I just don't think an 8 year old has the capacity to make that choice. She should wait until she is an adult and can fully understand the consequences of her actions.
 
2013-05-15 09:52:52 AM
How does one get to be male without testosterone?  If the dangly bits are gone,  could there be any?
 
2013-05-15 10:04:58 AM

CleanAndPure: ambiguously


Like all those parents who let their daughters wear pants?

splashing slashie: How does one get to be male without testosterone?  If the dangly bits are gone,  could there be any?


You're conflating sex with gender.
 
2013-05-15 10:11:21 AM

splashing slashie: How does one get to be male without testosterone?  If the dangly bits are gone,  could there be any?


To be clear, you get both testosterone and estrogen... girls get both, boys get both... there are varying levels and all, but it's not like it is a binary function.
 
2013-05-15 10:14:11 AM
this thread needs Spentmiles.
 
2013-05-15 10:17:33 AM

firefly212: To be clear, you get both testosterone and estrogen... girls get both, boys get both... there are varying levels and all, but it's not like it is a binary function.


So his binaries don't function?
I am so confused. Maybe my parents should sue somebody
 
2013-05-15 10:46:33 AM
I don't know about this particular case,but aren't most babies born with both sets of equipment biologically male? I know that all fetuses start out female, and later a series of changes occur in XY fetuses that change the girly bits to boy bits, but sometimes a step is missed and they end up with both, or even, neither, however, it's easier to physically assign the child female parts, so that's what often happens. Maybe- just maybe-we should, at minimum, do a DNA test to see what the child is supposed to be biologically before making changes that will have lifelong consequences?
 
Ant
2013-05-15 10:46:38 AM
But, but, it's gotta be one or the other!
 
2013-05-15 10:48:46 AM
But about a year ago, the Crawfords say their now-8-year-old child told them he wanted to be raised as a boy.

Hmm, I wonder where (s)he even got the idea that this was something you could ask for.

</sarcasm>
 
2013-05-15 11:09:50 AM
> About one in every 2,000 children is born "intersex,"

If this is actually true, I would expect to have encountered a lot more interesting porn.
 
2013-05-15 11:10:07 AM

hoo_hoo_fred: this thread needs Spentmiles.


might be too angry about the inch
but I agree.
 
2013-05-15 11:15:52 AM
I think subby needs to take a remedial English class.
 
2013-05-15 11:26:58 AM
I didn't know anything about gays, hermaphrodites or sex change operations when I was 5, but I knew I wanted to be a boy.

/ not a hermaphrodite
// AFAIK
 
2013-05-15 11:38:45 AM
croesius: But I thought this sort of thing wasn't a choice, and people are all born the way they should be?

Tatterdemalian: Son of Thunder: Gunther: Headline makes it sound frivolous, but they're suing because the hospital looked at a baby born with both sets of genitalia and essentially flipped a coin as to which they chopped off. Now there's some poor eight-year-old with a male mind and female genitalia.

Did they flip a coin, or check the DNA? XX vs XY might be relevant information. How about the testes/ovaries? Was there a pair of each, or one set? That might be relevant information. The kid was 16 months old, so it's not like they hadn't had time to run any tests.

Sorry, society is too progressive to allow discrimination based on sexual chromosomes or the presence of functioning reproductive organs. The transsexual community fought against such hateful attitudes for generations, and they're not going to let their legal victory over biology be rolled back.

/better to destroy the foundations of medical science than admit some things can't be made completely equal in every way



See, croesius?  THAT is how you build a strawman.  Not your weaksause attempt.

And you get extra points if you can get really pompous with an expression like "destroy the foundations of medical science."  That's some gravitas, man.
 
2013-05-15 11:40:42 AM

splashing slashie: How does one get to be male without testosterone?  If the dangly bits are gone,  could there be any?


This looks like a job for hormone-replacement therapy.
 
2013-05-15 11:46:26 AM

whenIsayGO: I didn't know anything about gays, hermaphrodites or sex change operations when I was 5, but I knew I wanted to be a boy.

/ not a hermaphrodite
// AFAIK


So do about 1 in 4 girls (number from my arse) but most grow up to be happy adjusted women.

8 year olds are not emotionally or mentally ready to decide they are the right/wrong sex.
 
2013-05-15 12:01:51 PM

Greek:  I know that all fetuses start out female, and later a series of changes occur in XY fetuses that change the girly bits to boy bits


That's not technically accurate.  All fetuses start out without an external penis, but that's not the same thing as being female.  The "all start female" myth is a holdover from 19th century medicine, when it was assumed that the presence of a penis was the defining feature of a male, and the absence of one was the defining feature of a female (rather that the presence of ovaries, a uterus, etc.).  IOW, 19th century (and earlier) medicine defined females as "incompletely male," so they defined anything that was not obviously male as "female" by default.

In fact, external appearance is not an entirely reliable guide to sex.  The only truly definitive guide to an individual's sex is the types of gametes they make.  If you produce sperm, you're male.  If you produce ova, you're female.  It gets complicated in the case of intersexed individuals though, since they don't produce either.  Biologically speaking, this kid is neither male nor female, as far as sex is concerned.  Gender is a different issue however.  If the kid thinks he's a boy, then he is gendered masculine no matter what his sex is.  If she thinks she's a girl, she's gender feminine, no matter what her sex is.

/$0.02
 
2013-05-15 12:02:28 PM

CleanAndPure: 8 year olds are not emotionally or mentally ready to decide they are the right/wrong sex.


Go put a few 8 year old boys in dresses and bring them to the mall and see what happens. I'm sure the community is rainbows and the boys are not emotionally ready to feel anything is wrong and they will have a jolly time.
 
2013-05-15 12:03:32 PM

Gunther: Headline makes it sound frivolous, but they're suing because the hospital looked at a baby born with both sets of genitalia and essentially flipped a coin as to which they chopped off. Now there's some poor eight-year-old with a male mind and female genitalia.


Agreed. This is a perfectly valid lawsuit, and hopefully it'll deter hospitals from doing this in the future.
 
2013-05-15 12:10:13 PM

FatPrincess: CleanAndPure: 8 year olds are not emotionally or mentally ready to decide they are the right/wrong sex.

Go put a few 8 year old boys in dresses and bring them to the mall and see what happens. I'm sure the community is rainbows and the boys are not emotionally ready to feel anything is wrong and they will have a jolly time.


No... they're more likely to act immature about it which is exactly my point.
 
2013-05-15 12:11:08 PM

splashing slashie: How does one get to be male without testosterone?  If the dangly bits are gone,  could there be any?


there is a difference between sex and gender. A person's sex is determined by which organs they have. But a person's gender identity is determined within the hypothalamus in the brain. Sometimes the engine doesn't match the chassis, so to speak.
 
2013-05-15 12:11:17 PM
No... they're more likely to act immature about it which is exactly my point.
 
2013-05-15 12:11:27 PM

ciberido: splashing slashie: How does one get to be male without testosterone?  If the dangly bits are gone,  could there be any?

This looks like a job for hormone-replacement therapy.



I just had an image of Magnus Hirschfeld pulling off his glasses, rushing into a phone booth, and emerging dressed in a cape and tights.
 
2013-05-15 12:22:01 PM

sand_in_my_vagoo: Nice to see medical science still has no idea what to do with intersexed children.


There's medical science, ¿but doctors? They're artists. Think of them as the justice of the medical world: They don't make the rules, just enforce them.

Sometimes blindly and without hesitation.
 
2013-05-15 12:22:39 PM
Step 1: Find an orphan who was born with both sets of genitalia and had one removed.
Step 2: Adopt them and sue the Hospital for the surgery
Step 3: Profit!
 
2013-05-15 12:23:48 PM

corronchilejano: sand_in_my_vagoo: Nice to see medical science still has no idea what to do with intersexed children.

There's medical science, ¿but doctors? They're artists. Think of them as the justice of the medical world: They don't make the rules, just enforce them.

Sometimes blindly and without hesitation.


Doctors are just highly specialized mechanics with a steep disaster curve. They're not somehow brilliant compared to any other college grad.
 
2013-05-15 01:10:27 PM
Poor kid. The parents are suing on behalf of that kid, and what was done was also medically wrong. We've known now for a long time that intrasexed children should be left the fark alone until older for this very reason. There is *no* way to determine what gender the child is mentally. Additionally, even once gender IS determined when the child is old enough, sexuality is complex. Mucking around in that area may destroy their sex lives. You can't undo things once you do them, so progressing slowly is pretty damned important.

Oh, and we know this shiat doesn't work because back when it was thought you could just 'make' children to be whatever gender ... which apparently is the 'common sense' thought that went on (and is still present in all it's ignorant glory in this thread) that's exactly what doctor's did when they burned off babies penises during circumcision accidents. Easier to make the infant into a female when you've literally destroyed their penis.

Wanna know how that worked out?
 
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