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(Talking Points Memo)   Before you jump on the "OMG IRS/BENGHAZI/OBAMA" scandal bandwagon, read the Inspector General's report on the IRS   (livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 33
    More: Interesting, IRS, inspector generals, scandals  
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4486 clicks; posted to Politics » on 15 May 2013 at 11:40 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-05-15 11:56:29 AM
3 votes:

trailerpimp: Fair tax anyone?


yes but let's base it on assets and not salaried income.
2013-05-15 11:51:40 AM
3 votes:

Richard Blaine: I read the report. It demonstrates a clear bias towards certain policy positions which is in violation of IRS standards. The scandal is that the Congress has been investigating these allegations since 2011 and the IRS has consistently denied it. The cover up is more incriminating than the original mistake.


I wondered how long it would take an official internal investigation released to the public to be called "a coverup."
2013-05-15 01:33:46 PM
2 votes:

mistrmind: xanadian: cman: Will this finally shut people up and make them admit that the IRS farked up?

Yes, but the IRS is governed by the Department of the Treasury, which is led by the Secretary of the Treasury, who has President Obama as his boss.

Some people have the mentality that because Obama is the "captain of his ship," that he must bear the brunt of any wrongdoing by his subordinates.  It's like Star Trek 6 all over again.

Well Obama is creating a larger and larger government.  So big that he himself can no longer control it.  In that case, it begs the question, how strong he is as a leader?  (Answer: Not very, if at all).  Also it's strange that this was taking place during the election year and specifically against those that are his enemies.  It reeks of McCarthyism.

Then we can go back to how during his campaign he promised "transparency" in his administration yet we have a constant barrage of cover ups for "Fast and Furious" and Benghazi.


3.bp.blogspot.com
2013-05-15 12:52:49 PM
2 votes:

trailerpimp: Fair tax anyone?


"Fair tax"?  Sure.

"Fair Tax"?  No thanks.  Hell, no.
2013-05-15 12:34:35 PM
2 votes:

Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: What are you babbling about? If you file for tax-exempt status, and register as what appears to be a political group that does not deserve tax-exempt status, it seems to me you should expect to have to pony up a little more info to prove you deserve said status.


Which wasn't the case here. The application for non-profit status isn't an information free one that just gets a stamp. You have to include who you are and what you plan on doing. Some of those groups were flagged for inquiry not because of what they were doing but because they had conservative buzzwords in their names or supported things that conservatives might support. Then those applications were delayed for an unusual amount of time and an inordinate amount of information that the IRS didn't really need was requested.

If there had been a sudden explosion of groups named "committee to elect Democrats" I would expect to see the exact same thing happen.
 But anyway, it's not like they were targeting "conservative" groups, only political groups, because the Tea Party is not a conservative, Republican group.


Except their policies did target conservative groups. There weren't any equivalent flags for terms like "progressive" or "environmental" Literally everyone agrees that the IRS screwed up, including this report, and trying to hand wave away an obvious problem makes liberals look worse and conservative conspiracy theorists look more credible. So stop doing that.
2013-05-15 12:34:12 PM
2 votes:
I think I'm pretty liberal, but I think what the Cincinnati office did was absolutely wrong. Wrong, and lazy. And when their superiors told them to stop being lazy, they shrugged, pretended to change their ways, and then started right back up again. That's insubordination. That entire group should be fired for being wrong, lazy, and insubordinate.
2013-05-15 12:32:52 PM
2 votes:

A Dark Evil Omen: Hahaha, wow. The density of potato in this post is going to make the thread collapse into a quantum black hole.


In other words, you have no argument to counter his point, so you just play the "derp" card.

cameroncrazy1984: Can you name one group that was denied tax-exempt status in all of this? One? And can you please explain why that is fascism?


It wasn't in denying any group tax exempt status, it is in creating time and paperwork barriers that no other group had to go through, based exclusively on the political leanings of the group.

Its not like we havent been over this half a dozen times already....
2013-05-15 12:25:00 PM
2 votes:
C/P Myself for everyone to ignore:

Section 501(c)(4) of the Internal Revenue Code defines tax-exempt social welfare groups like this: Civic leagues or organizations not organized for profit but operated exclusively for the promotion of social welfare.
But a few lines later, we have: To be operated exclusively to promote social welfare, an organization must operate primarily to further the common good and general welfare of the people of the community.
So, in 1959 when this change went in, we have taken a word with legal meaning and changed it to something that is undefined.
As I see it, this is the problem.
Primarily is totally undefined and open to individual interpretation.

Now, why does everyone want to be a 501(c)(4)? Because the donor list is private.
2013-05-15 12:24:51 PM
2 votes:

odinsposse: Citrate1007: A group opposed to paying taxes deserves greater scrutiny from the IRS by definition.

Except they weren't tax returns so that doesn't have any bearing. This was undeniably a screw up by the IRS and it really isn't helpful to pretend it was not. Arguing that it was okay just makes the allegations the right is throwing around about it being oppression or political bullying sound more credible. Stop it.


What are you babbling about? If you file for tax-exempt status, and register as what appears to be a political group that does not deserve tax-exempt status, it seems to me you should expect to have to pony up a little more info to prove you deserve said status.

If there had been a sudden explosion of groups named "committee to elect Democrats" I would expect to see the exact same thing happen.

But anyway, it's not like they were targeting "conservative" groups, only political groups, because the Tea Party is not a conservative, Republican group.
2013-05-15 12:04:18 PM
2 votes:

ShadowKamui: A Dark Evil Omen: ShadowKamui: openly advocating fascism

No, that's right-wingers. Incessantly.

Fascism is fascism regardless of if its wearing a red or a blue shirt.  Cheering on the deliberate harassment of your political enemies and assuming free speech only means speech you like are not exactly ideals of a democracy


I'm gonna start off by saying that I am opposed to the IRS specifically going after conservatives groups, and what they did was wrong. HOWEVER, I will say this is based upon the assumption it was done for political reasons. However, 2 points:

1) If there is a flood of new applicants from a specific political group, one who's members have shown they are quite adverse to taxes, and are trying to get tax-free status for organizations with names that are overtly political, would it not be wise to kind of keep an eye on them?

2) What exact harassment did these groups go through? I mean, using the phrase "fascism" over actions like requesting an additional form to be filled out kind of diminishes the word. I honestly don't know, I just keep reading they were targeted, but I'm not entirely clear what sort of process that entailed for these groups. Was their free speech attacked?
2013-05-15 11:55:15 AM
2 votes:

Richard Blaine: I read the report. It demonstrates a clear bias towards certain policy positions which is in violation of IRS standards. The scandal is that the Congress has been investigating these allegations since 2011 and the IRS has consistently denied it. The cover up is more incriminating than the original mistake.


has the IRS denied it or have they been waiting on this report?  I'm sure some heads will roll over this. but Boehner wants someone to go to jail.

I want to know why he hasn't gone to jail for wasting taxpayer's money for political reasons with all the repeal Obamacare votes they've had.  they're doing it only because they want the new guys to be able to say "I voted to repeal Obamacare" in their campaign ads. they've admitted as much.
2013-05-15 05:01:53 PM
1 votes:
Grungehamster:

The next big thing is Boehner is out there now demanding jail time for those involved in this. Sorry, but if nobody went to jail over the Pigford snafu I highly doubt increased scrutiny of applications that never actually rejected anyone based on the requirements will result in people behind bars.

I like how he's asking who's going to go to jail.  He's already had the trial handed down the verdict and passed sentence - now if he could just find a damned defendant to apply it to, he'd be golden!

/To be fair, unlike many of his colleagues in Congress, he does not appear to have a law degree
2013-05-15 04:04:32 PM
1 votes:

PartTimeBuddha: But at this stage -- four-plus years into Obama's presidency, it no longer addresses that point. Now it looks like cherry-picking.


Pretty much. It is the clearly intentional decision to start the graph after the economic disaster was in full swing that makes it slightly suspect.

It's also a somewhat pointless graph, because after you have hit bottom, there's really nowhere else to go but up.

As a comparison, this graph, while not perfect, shows a broader view:
jerrykhachoyan.com

When you dont cherry pick your starting point, it becomes more clear that both Presidents had periods of job growth and both Presidents had part of a catastrophic drop in employment.

Too often the graph is used to "prove" that Bush broke the economy, or to "prove" that Obama fixed the economy.

But the graph shows neither. It shows (unsuprisingly) that private sector jobs went down in the first few years of Obama's term, and improved during his term so far.

And when I look at this graph, it makes me wonder what happened in 200-2003...
2013-05-15 12:54:21 PM
1 votes:

FarkedOver: mistrmind: Well Obama is creating a larger and larger government. So big that he himself can no longer control it. In that case, it begs the question, how strong he is as a leader? (Answer: Not very, if at all). Also it's strange that this was taking place during the election year and specifically against those that are his enemies. It reeks of McCarthyism.

Then we can go back to how during his campaign he promised "transparency" in his administration yet we have a constant barrage of cover ups for "Fast and Furious" and Benghazi.

Are you really comparing Tea Party members to people that were persecuted by McCarthy?  Wow.....


The comparison to Senator McCarthy's actions is sufficient to identify the post as a "troll". Actual Tea Party members would not associate McCarthyism with unjust persecution, as they believe Senator McCarthy to be an unfairly maligned hero who fought to protect the United States of America from a very real and encroaching communist menace.
2013-05-15 12:42:58 PM
1 votes:

o5iiawah: cameroncrazy1984: Can you name one group that was denied tax-exempt status in all of this? One? And can you please explain why that is fascism?

It wasn't in denying any group tax exempt status, it is in creating time and paperwork barriers that no other group had to go through, based exclusively on the political leanings of the group.

Its not like we havent been over this half a dozen times already....


We have.

"One of those groups, Emerge America, saw its tax-exempt status denied, forcing it to disclose its donors and pay some taxes. None of the Republican groups have said their applications were rejected."

Oh wait. That was a progressive group.
Number of Tea Party groups rejected: 0
2013-05-15 12:39:58 PM
1 votes:

Warlordtrooper: I still don't understand what is there to be outraged about here....   Bush had the FBI infiltrate liberal anti-war groups and occupy protesters.  Why isn't anybody screaming about that.


Uh, I think your timeline's a little farked-up there, chief.
2013-05-15 12:25:10 PM
1 votes:
No one faults "job creators" from tossing out resumes based on keywords. It makes their jobs easier, and anything that eases the burden of job creators is good for America. Yet it's suddenly not okay when the IRS does it? Not to mention they didn't even reject applications based on keywords, just required additional scrutiny?

The correct response is "Meh."

Either fund the IRS to go after everyone, or stop biatching when they take shortcuts that would be hailed as business savvy in the private sector.
I'd expect the same kind of thing to happen if liberal groups suddenly surged around a few key words, but since the Tea Party suddenly realized it was patriotic to oppose the blah guy, they bore the brunt of the IRS's shortcut.
2013-05-15 12:22:50 PM
1 votes:
All but one Christian Coalition state organizations lost their IRS tax-exempt status

Most likely, if they hadn't, there would be no Tea Party.

Tax collecting has been around for as long as tax evasion.
2013-05-15 12:17:29 PM
1 votes:

Citrate1007: A group opposed to paying taxes deserves greater scrutiny from the IRS by definition.


Except they weren't tax returns so that doesn't have any bearing. This was undeniably a screw up by the IRS and it really isn't helpful to pretend it was not. Arguing that it was okay just makes the allegations the right is throwing around about it being oppression or political bullying sound more credible. Stop it.
2013-05-15 12:15:12 PM
1 votes:

ShadowKamui: A Dark Evil Omen: ShadowKamui: openly advocating fascism

No, that's right-wingers. Incessantly.

Fascism is fascism regardless of if its wearing a red or a blue shirt.  Cheering on the deliberate harassment of your political enemies and assuming free speech only means speech you like are not exactly ideals of a democracy whatever I say it is because the actual definition of fascism is not important to me.


Obviously.
2013-05-15 12:13:35 PM
1 votes:
After reading the report (ok, most of it, i skimmed some) it doesn't look like any sort of partisan scandal.  Just looks like the IRS sucks at following their own rules.  Trying to connect it to Obama is ridiculous.  Instead, people should use this as an opportunity for tax reform (they won't, but they should)
2013-05-15 12:11:21 PM
1 votes:

Grungehamster: LasersHurt: cman: Will this finally shut people up and make them admit that the IRS farked up?

People HAVE been admitting the IRS farked up. From day one that this broke.

Where is this fantasy land that some people live where everyone is brushing this under the rug and saying it's okay? There are so many people whining about it, it must be happening somewhere, right?

Is this one of those "I saw some idiot say it once therefore broadbrush giantstatement"?

A lot of people have taken a grumpy cat approach to the scandal of "well duh, everyone knows these groups are political, so I'm glad they did it" and either downplay or ignore that the guidelines these agents were using was discriminatory. The IRS higher ups saw employees use a standard that was biased against conservative groups, told them to knock it off, and never followed up to see if they changed the criteria (they didn't). This should lead to people being fired for poor management and failure to follow orders.

However, the biggest issue is that conservative groups are conflating non-profit applications with tax returns and implying people ended up getting audited for their political beliefs instead of filing additional paperwork detailing the goals of their organization.

The next big thing is Boehner is out there now demanding jail time for those involved in this. Sorry, but if nobody went to jail over the Pigford snafu I highly doubt increased scrutiny of applications that never actually rejected anyone based on the requirements will result in people behind bars.


Just send this questionnaire to everybody on the future. It shouldn't be easy to become tax exempt for anybody.
2013-05-15 12:08:49 PM
1 votes:
A group opposed to paying taxes deserves greater scrutiny from the IRS by definition.
2013-05-15 12:08:44 PM
1 votes:

LasersHurt: cman: Will this finally shut people up and make them admit that the IRS farked up?

People HAVE been admitting the IRS farked up. From day one that this broke.

Where is this fantasy land that some people live where everyone is brushing this under the rug and saying it's okay? There are so many people whining about it, it must be happening somewhere, right?

Is this one of those "I saw some idiot say it once therefore broadbrush giantstatement"?


A lot of people have taken a grumpy cat approach to the scandal of "well duh, everyone knows these groups are political, so I'm glad they did it" and either downplay or ignore that the guidelines these agents were using was discriminatory. The IRS higher ups saw employees use a standard that was biased against conservative groups, told them to knock it off, and never followed up to see if they changed the criteria (they didn't). This should lead to people being fired for poor management and failure to follow orders.

However, the biggest issue is that conservative groups are conflating non-profit applications with tax returns and implying people ended up getting audited for their political beliefs instead of filing additional paperwork detailing the goals of their organization.

The next big thing is Boehner is out there now demanding jail time for those involved in this. Sorry, but if nobody went to jail over the Pigford snafu I highly doubt increased scrutiny of applications that never actually rejected anyone based on the requirements will result in people behind bars.
2013-05-15 12:02:12 PM
1 votes:

cman: Will this finally shut people up and make them admit that the IRS farked up?


The "my bad, should I have not done that," defense?
2013-05-15 11:58:29 AM
1 votes:

A Dark Evil Omen: ShadowKamui: openly advocating fascism

No, that's right-wingers. Incessantly.


Fascism is fascism regardless of if its wearing a red or a blue shirt.  Cheering on the deliberate harassment of your political enemies and assuming free speech only means speech you like are not exactly ideals of a democracy
2013-05-15 11:56:28 AM
1 votes:
I hope the investigation of the IRS is an extended affair.  Please bring them forward into the Congress for punishing reviews and questions.  Let them justify themselves.  Look into criminal statues.   Put them through hell.  Keep asking them for more information and data.   The shoe my friends is on the other foot.  This will be enjoyable to me.

www.toucanisland.com
2013-05-15 11:55:18 AM
1 votes:
TL;DR version:

"You shouldn't have used 'tea party' or 'patriot' as criteria because it looks like you're singling out certain groups. There were some delays in processing some applications that should not have taken so long. We need to firm up our guidelines a bit. Everyone back to work."

OMGWTFTYRANNY? No. "Improper," sure, in the sense of "not best practices." Oppressive? No.
2013-05-15 11:51:21 AM
1 votes:

trailerpimp: Fair tax anyone?


Sounds good, it'll collapse the state and bring about the revolution.
2013-05-15 11:51:04 AM
1 votes:
Interestingly, the only group that saw its status denied (for 10 of its chapters) was Emerge America, which works to elect Democratic women to office.

This is Obama's Waterloo!
2013-05-15 11:49:06 AM
1 votes:
I read the report. It demonstrates a clear bias towards certain policy positions which is in violation of IRS standards. The scandal is that the Congress has been investigating these allegations since 2011 and the IRS has consistently denied it. The cover up is more incriminating than the original mistake.
2013-05-15 11:48:08 AM
1 votes:

LasersHurt: cman: Will this finally shut people up and make them admit that the IRS farked up?

People HAVE been admitting the IRS farked up. From day one that this broke.

Where is this fantasy land that some people live where everyone is brushing this under the rug and saying it's okay? There are so many people whining about it, it must be happening somewhere, right?

Is this one of those "I saw some idiot say it once therefore broadbrush giantstatement"?


You have people in the other thread openly advocating fascism and claiming this was a good thing
2013-05-15 11:17:28 AM
1 votes:
Will this finally shut people up and make them admit that the IRS farked up?
 
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