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(WTSP)   DOT changed traffic signal timing rules to increase red light camera revenue   (wtsp.com) divider line 201
    More: Florida, red light cameras, florida, Florida Department of Transportation, National Motorists Association, direct payments, RLC, Florida Legislature, u.s. 19  
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10925 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 May 2013 at 11:17 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-05-14 09:39:52 AM
eff the DOT
 
2013-05-14 10:14:32 AM
I think the Obvious tag would have been more appropriate here. Unfortunately, this issue isn't restricted to a single state.
 
2013-05-14 10:21:30 AM
I like how the news calls any legislation "quiet" when they fail to report on it.
 
2013-05-14 10:29:20 AM
Yellow light times are calculated by a complex formula

I kind of doubt that.
 
2013-05-14 10:32:12 AM
I've never heard of such a thing happening.  To think people would be motivated to screw others out of their money.

/sarcasm
 
2013-05-14 10:33:50 AM

Mugato: Yellow light times are calculated by a complex formula

I kind of doubt that.


You doubt the complexity in the mathematical operations of physics that determine where a dart lands on a board?
 
2013-05-14 10:42:49 AM

labman: I've never heard of such a thing happening. To think people would be motivated to screw others out of their money.

/sarcasm



But this is the government. They arn't motivated by petty things like profit.
 
2013-05-14 10:49:47 AM

IdBeCrazyIf: Mugato: Yellow light times are calculated by a complex formula

I kind of doubt that.

You doubt the complexity in the mathematical operations of physics that determine where a dart lands on a board?


Well obviously smaller side roads have longer red lights if they are opposite highways but I just can't see that much thought going into it, especially if they're farking with the timing to create a 21st century version of the speed trap.

Weren't these farking things banned in some states?
 
2013-05-14 11:03:28 AM

Mugato: Yellow light times are calculated by a complex formula

I kind of doubt that.


What are there, like, 4 or 5 variables? Width of intersection, number of lanes,  a journalist probably thinks that's complex.
 
2013-05-14 11:07:02 AM
New York would never do something so obvious as fark with the timing on the lights.

They'd simply design the road horribly in the first place by doing something like putting three sets of lights on a half-mile downhill stretch of road, then half-assing the set-up of the light timing - and when the mistakes are brought to their attention, then they'll have a cop camp out by the malfunctioning light to pull people over who weren't expecting a 3am red light for an intersection at a strip mall where all the stores have been closed for six hours.

Bonus: putting lights on hills means the pavement gets all chattery real fast from trucks slamming on the brakes on the hills, and the asphalt contractors get extra work!
 
2013-05-14 11:22:09 AM
Same thing happened in Georgia, the city responsible had to refund thousands of tickets.
 
2013-05-14 11:23:47 AM

moothemagiccow: Mugato: Yellow light times are calculated by a complex formula

I kind of doubt that.

What are there, like, 4 or 5 variables? Width of intersection, number of lanes,  a journalist probably thinks that's complex.


Toss a journalist a Rubik's Cube. Then discuss complexity.
 
2013-05-14 11:24:10 AM
Hear that? That's the rumblings of a class action lawsuit.
 
2013-05-14 11:24:37 AM
Oldsmar had a similar issue, where its intersection at Tampa Rd. and SR-580 (State St.) was improperly timed.  The yellow light was just 3.0 seconds instead of 4.3 seconds. When the problem was addressed last fall, citations plummeted by 90 percent. But no notices, or refunds, went out to ticketed drivers. for $afety
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-05-14 11:26:19 AM
New York would never do something so obvious as fark with the timing on the lights.

New York used to have a section of its traffic control device manual describing signals specifically meant to mess with drivers. 17 NYCRR 275.5 (2001) "Speed control signals" (aka "rest on red"). They are designed to give you a red light if the control box doesn't approve of your speed. I can't find them in the current MUTCD supplement. New York may have abandoned them. California still uses them.
 
2013-05-14 11:28:04 AM
I was nearly rear ended at the main intersection on my way to the highway to work the other day.  I got a red light camera ticket there last year... so I stopped after the car before more drove through on yellow.  The guy behind me obviously had never gotten a ticket at that intersection.  He was road-raging me pretty good after that.
 
2013-05-14 11:28:51 AM

Mugato: Yellow light times are calculated by a complex formula

I kind of doubt that.


"Complex" to a journalist.

You know, anything that involves more than a "+" sign.
 
2013-05-14 11:28:55 AM

moothemagiccow: Mugato: Yellow light times are calculated by a complex formula

I kind of doubt that.

What are there, like, 4 or 5 variables? Width of intersection, number of lanes,  a journalist probably thinks that's complex.


I don't know what all the independent variables are, but the dependent variable ends with a dollar sign.
 
2013-05-14 11:31:47 AM
Not to mention this will get a few people hurt possibly even killed.
 
2013-05-14 11:32:56 AM
I personally like how the cities have raised the rates for fighting a ticket.  Goes from 158  to 406.00 if you decide to fight the ticket.

I am real interested in finding out how many have fought this and won or lost.

Red light cameras and the whole operation is a giant scam on the public.
 
2013-05-14 11:33:23 AM
Speaking of yellow, these things are turning up everywhere in Florida now, and it's only a matter of time before someone is killed when a driver doesn't realize you may have to stop at a yellow light.


stmedia.startribune.com
 
2013-05-14 11:34:52 AM

ZAZ: New York used to have a section of its traffic control device manual describing signals specifically meant to mess with drivers. 17 NYCRR 275.5 (2001) "Speed control signals" (aka "rest on red"). They are designed to give you a red light if the control box doesn't approve of your speed. I can't find them in the current MUTCD supplement. New York may have abandoned them.


Here's one from 2008 (PDF). I've never encountered one myself in NY, driving mostly in Ulster/Dutchess/Putnam/Westchester - the messed-up signals and traffic cops waiting to pounce on every ticky-tack violation seem to take care of revenue quite nicely. Doesn't do jack shiat for safety, though.
 
2013-05-14 11:35:00 AM
This is what happens when you keep cutting taxes and governments have to get creative to get revenue.
 
2013-05-14 11:35:43 AM
It sounds to me like this should increase the safety of those intersections by at least a factor of 10. Maybe instead of whining about a few little traffic tickets, you should be thankful for FDOT's steadfast dedication to making your lives safer.
 
2013-05-14 11:36:16 AM
D*cks
 
2013-05-14 11:37:00 AM
Think of the children.
 
2013-05-14 11:37:04 AM
Well I feel safer now. Cause after all its about safety!
 
2013-05-14 11:38:18 AM

Twigz221: This is what happens when you keep cutting taxes and governments have to get creative to get revenue.


While true, it's not like they need a reason beyond gouging the public.
 
2013-05-14 11:39:22 AM

mod3072: It sounds to me like this should increase the safety of those intersections by at least a factor of 10. Maybe instead of whining about a few little traffic tickets, you should be thankful for FDOT's steadfast dedication to making your lives safer.


4/10

Obvious, but you'll get a bite.
 
2013-05-14 11:39:23 AM
If this is all about safety, which I'm sure it is, they should put another yellow in the middle there. That way drivers will have twice as long to contemplate the eternal question. Mash the gas or slam on the brakes.
 
2013-05-14 11:39:52 AM

Mugato: IdBeCrazyIf: Mugato: Yellow light times are calculated by a complex formula

I kind of doubt that.

You doubt the complexity in the mathematical operations of physics that determine where a dart lands on a board?

Well obviously smaller side roads have longer red lights if they are opposite highways but I just can't see that much thought going into it, especially if they're farking with the timing to create a 21st century version of the speed trap.

Weren't these farking things banned in some states?


Yeah, I mean I can understand the balance of red and green lights and the ordering being critical, complex and interrelated with traffic flows and patterns everywhere in the region in a complex and dynamic pattern that would required advanced modeling and regular real world checking to see if things are working as expected to get the optimum arrangement. But yellow lights should be virtually fixed and consistent with just adjustments for a few basic factors as far as I can tell.

Then again you do wonder if there needs to be a rethink, fundamentally the red/yellow/green setup of traffic lights still ends up with the Starman effect too much (Red: Stop. Green: Go. Yellow: Go really fast)

/obviously the best solution is use roundabouts wherever possible
 
2013-05-14 11:40:20 AM

Twigz221: This is what happens when you keep cutting taxes and governments have to get creative to get revenue.


That's cute. Naive, but cute.
 
2013-05-14 11:41:27 AM
This pretty much proves what most of our government thinks of us: a farking piggy bank they can bilk as much as they damn well please.
 
2013-05-14 11:42:21 AM

Twigz221: This is what happens when you keep cutting taxes and governments have to get creative to get revenue.


But, taxiz izz soshulzzmms!
 
2013-05-14 11:42:49 AM
Oh, but if you're not doing anything wrong, then this should be okay, right?

You must blindly follow the rules that your magnanimous government has set forth to protect you.
They would NEVER trample your rights in order to control you and wring more money out of you.

Never.
 
2013-05-14 11:43:17 AM
$afety first
 
2013-05-14 11:44:06 AM
Red-light cameras are the electronic version of the TSA.
 
2013-05-14 11:45:52 AM
This crap's getting real tiresome. I wonder if anybody in authority is getting actual payola style kickbacks for allowing these things to go in? I'd just about bet money on it. Personally, I'd like a thorough investigation. Some DOT guy physically typed those new numbers into the computer or turned the dial or however it works to shorten those lights. Who told them to do that, and why?
 
2013-05-14 11:47:08 AM
Next, counties will reduce speed limits just inside the intersections so as to "legally" decrease the yellow light timing. This is the problem when you make traffic handling profit oriented instead of safety oriented!
 
2013-05-14 11:48:21 AM

Mytch: $afety first


Came here to say exactly this.
 
2013-05-14 11:48:54 AM

theBigBigEye: This pretty much proves what most of our government thinks of us: a farking piggy bank they can bilk as much as they damn well please.


michiganleftblog.com

"Same as it ever was."
 
2013-05-14 11:49:17 AM
we need a yellow light count down.

That is all.
 
msP
2013-05-14 11:49:34 AM
"While yellow light times were reduced by mere fractions of a second..."

Sounds to me like only the people who should get caught and getting caught.. if you're getting caught because of a fraction of a second less, that's the same as getting caught before they changed it. Not that I agree with RLCs, jussayin'.
 
2013-05-14 11:50:32 AM
Since Florida spends lots of money to attract visitors, this makes it dangerous for drivers from others states, since the driver behavior is different.

Drivers from vacation returning to others states which actually follow federal rules make be rear-ended more from panic stopping at a yellow light or speed up to get out of the intersections.

Really POed feds could declare that any ticket/fine mailed from a red light Florida camera to be mail fraud. Certainly, since Florida doesn't pay for half the damage to rear-end collisions at red light camera intersections, they should probably pay by sacrificing the local bureaucrat who OKed the deal if there is a fatality at that intersection.

Intelligent traffic lights have a countdown feature that tell the seconds before the light turns yellow. And usually the yellow light duration is quite reasonable.
 
2013-05-14 11:51:07 AM
What does the yellow light mean?
 
2013-05-14 11:51:16 AM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: labman: I've never heard of such a thing happening. To think people would be motivated to screw others out of their money.

/sarcasm


But this is the government. They arn't motivated by petty things like profit.

 The government has to pay for the services it provides, like your mental-health disability payments, your medicaid and so forth somehow. Since taxes are bad, it only makes sense we get revenue from people who can't be bothered to follow simple rules, like stopping at a red light.
 
2013-05-14 11:52:20 AM

jrat454: What does the yellow light mean?


Floor it (in Florida, at least)
 
2013-05-14 11:53:22 AM
just make everything around the Disney swamp into a toll road, and charge crazy expensive rates.

/ because they've not completely done that yet
 
2013-05-14 11:54:38 AM

TanSau: we need a yellow light count down.

That is all.


Yeah, like they do with cross walks. How hard would that be?
 
2013-05-14 11:55:12 AM

freeforever: Speaking of yellow, these things are turning up everywhere in Florida now, and it's only a matter of time before someone is killed when a driver doesn't realize you may have to stop at a yellow light.


That's ricockulous. What's wrong with a green circle after the green arrow goes out? That's been "left turn yield" in all the states I've driven in.

Someone's gonna take a flashing yellow as meaning "better get through the intersection before you lose your chance" rather than "stop and yield to oncoming traffic". Do counties make money off of traffic accidents?
 
msP
2013-05-14 11:55:13 AM
/obviously the best solution is use roundabouts wherever possibleTHIS! I say this all the time. In my completely unscientific opinion, I guesstimate that at least 90% of traffic lights could be replaced by roundabouts.
 
2013-05-14 11:55:36 AM

Sczi: This crap's getting real tiresome. I wonder if anybody in authority is getting actual payola style kickbacks for allowing these things to go in? I'd just about bet money on it. Personally, I'd like a thorough investigation. Some DOT guy physically typed those new numbers into the computer or turned the dial or however it works to shorten those lights. Who told them to do that, and why?




It is probably better for everyone if you don't ask too many questions about this.
 
2013-05-14 11:55:46 AM

Sczi: This crap's getting real tiresome. I wonder if anybody in authority is getting actual payola style kickbacks for allowing these things to go in? I'd just about bet money on it. Personally, I'd like a thorough investigation. Some DOT guy physically typed those new numbers into the computer or turned the dial or however it works to shorten those lights. Who told them to do that, and why?


I wonder how soon til someone just decides to start charging a fee to go through a light. Double if you want to make a left.
 
2013-05-14 11:56:41 AM

mod3072: It sounds to me like this should increase the safety of those intersections by at least a factor of 10. Maybe instead of whining about a few little traffic tickets, you should be thankful for FDOT's steadfast dedication to making your lives safer.


Not sure if serious. Studies show lengthening the duration of yellow leads to fewer accidents.
 
2013-05-14 11:56:55 AM

jrat454: What does the yellow light mean?


*quietly*
slow down.
 
2013-05-14 11:56:55 AM

Mugato: Yellow light times are calculated by a complex formula

I kind of doubt that.


Maybe it's counting to 3 using a ridiculous algorithm that requires modular exponentiation and then transposed to binary, then to hexadecimal and divided by π ...

Still too easy?
 
2013-05-14 11:57:30 AM

Sczi: This crap's getting real tiresome. I wonder if anybody in authority is getting actual payola style kickbacks for allowing these things to go in? I'd just about bet money on it. Personally, I'd like a thorough investigation. Some DOT guy physically typed those new numbers into the computer or turned the dial or however it works to shorten those lights. Who told them to do that, and why?


The payola goes directly to the town/city/county where these things are installed.  The companies that manage these things guarantee revenue from them, plus the local government doesn't pay for them.
 
2013-05-14 11:57:35 AM

Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: The Stealth Hippopotamus: labman: I've never heard of such a thing happening. To think people would be motivated to screw others out of their money.

/sarcasm


But this is the government. They arn't motivated by petty things like profit.
 The government has to pay for the services it provides, like your mental-health disability payments, your medicaid and so forth somehow. Since taxes are bad, it only makes sense we get revenue from people who can't be bothered to follow simple rules, like stopping at a red light.


Which breaks down when they are messing with the timing of light for the sole purpose of increasing revenue from people who didn't stop, because they changed the timing.
 
2013-05-14 11:58:04 AM

jrat454: What does the yellow light mean?


It's apparently the cue for my brother to yell "Goose it, Otis!"
 
2013-05-14 11:58:11 AM

ThatBillmanGuy: I wonder how soon til someone just decides to start charging a fee to go through a light. Double if you want to make a left.


Triple if you want to make that left immediately.
 
2013-05-14 11:59:40 AM
Bottom of the article Georgia  longer yellow light reduced 80 to 90 % of revenue for RDC .  Florida has 5 of the 12 oldest by age of residence cities they need a lot more time to react.  Delaying the onset of the green light  would increase safety  but they are not talking about that. It about revenue  not safety.
 
2013-05-14 12:00:22 PM

msP: /obviously the best solution is use roundabouts wherever possibleTHIS! I say this all the time. In my completely unscientific opinion, I guesstimate that at least 90% of traffic lights could be replaced by roundabouts.


When that happens, let me know so I can move out of the country for a decade and then come back when America has figured them out.

They installed one near me on a tiny little street in the middle of nowhere. I drive through it every day. The stuff I've seen the elderly and timid do in that roundabout boggles the mind.
 
2013-05-14 12:01:11 PM

legion_of_doo: jrat454: What does the yellow light mean?

*quietly*
slow down.


W h a t  d o e s  t h e  y e l l l l o w  l i g h t  m e a n ???
 
2013-05-14 12:02:21 PM
Keep giving us, your government, more powers and liberties. We promise to keep you safe. Your safety comes first above any interests we may have.
 
2013-05-14 12:02:31 PM

jrat454: What does the yellow light mean?


Slow Down

/Yes, I get the Taxi reference :-)
 
2013-05-14 12:02:54 PM

Mugato: TanSau: we need a yellow light count down.

That is all.

Yeah, like they do with cross walks. How hard would that be?


I usually look for the cross walk countdowns when approaching an intersection as many intersections near me tend to have them. What's crazy is that I was in the Dominican Republic a few years ago and they had count downs on the traffic lights and I've never seen one in the US. Then again by turning RLCs into ATMs governments aren't economically motivated to spend money on something that's going to drive down ticket revenue.
 
2013-05-14 12:03:55 PM
I wonder how often the cameras have been shot by the locals.
 
2013-05-14 12:04:25 PM
Nobody picked up on the Bikini Bike Wash link on the bottom left side of the page?  Really Fark?  I am disappoint.

http://www.wtsp.com/news/photo-gallery.aspx?storyid=313981
 
2013-05-14 12:04:53 PM

msP: /obviously the best solution is use roundabouts wherever possibleTHIS! I say this all the time. In my completely unscientific opinion, I guesstimate that at least 90% of traffic lights could be replaced by roundabouts.


Up here they've started building roundabouts all over the place. The local TeaBagger/KKK (yes, they ARE the same people) are all up in arms about them, calling them a waste of valuable taxpayer money and a horrible manipulation of people's freedumbs and liberties to drive as they please. The County based the locations for the roundabouts on the number of collisions at various intersections around the County and City. The worst intersections get priority on new construction. One in particular had three or so serious collisions every week just due to the nature of the way the curve was changed to accommodate the freeway when it was built in the mid 1960s.

They work. Quite well. Collisions at those intersections are way down. That last one hasn't seen a major wreck in months.
 
2013-05-14 12:05:09 PM
A (first time) red light ticket here in Ventura, CA is $480.00.  What utter crap.
 
2013-05-14 12:05:43 PM
While short yellows may cost you out of pocket before you adjust to them, LLLOOOOOONNNNGGGG yellows, like they have in this dusty town totally sap the life out of you.
There are no 'complex formulas' administered to these lights here.  They all just go to the default of 55 second green each direction and a painfully long 5 second yellow... no matter the traffic counts either way, the width of the road... fark that shiat, it's 55 seconds here.
 
2013-05-14 12:05:46 PM

Whistling Kitty Chaser: moothemagiccow: Mugato: Yellow light times are calculated by a complex formula

I kind of doubt that.

What are there, like, 4 or 5 variables? Width of intersection, number of lanes,  a journalist probably thinks that's complex.

I don't know what all the independent variables are, but the dependent variable ends with a dollar sign.


The trouble is that all those dollars go to the hucksters at American Traffic Solutions and the politicians think they're actually getting a slice
 
2013-05-14 12:05:57 PM
Why bother with the yellow light at all?
Just set up a toll at all busy intersections.

/snark off
 
2013-05-14 12:07:34 PM

sandi_fish: A (first time) red light ticket here in Ventura, CA is $480.00.  What utter crap.


Really?

No way.
 
2013-05-14 12:07:56 PM

moothemagiccow: Mugato: Yellow light times are calculated by a complex formula

I kind of doubt that.

What are there, like, 4 or 5 variables? Width of intersection, number of lanes,  a journalist probably thinks that's complex.


http://www.copradar.com/redlight/rdrform/redtyfm.html
 
2013-05-14 12:08:26 PM

Mugato: TanSau: we need a yellow light count down.

That is all.

Yeah, like they do with cross walks. How hard would that be?


I'm sure the counter argument is that it would cause drivers to punch it when they see some minimum time come up. Except now there wouldn't be the guess work of "crap, is this a long yellow or a short yellow? Hell, I'm going too fast to stop at this point, time to gun it and pray!"
 
2013-05-14 12:08:27 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: eff the DOT


Since this is Florida:  effDOT...
 
2013-05-14 12:08:31 PM

legion_of_doo: just make everything around the Disney swamp into a toll road, and charge crazy expensive rates.

/ because they've not completely done that yet


They haven't? I suppose they could put tolls on I-4, but other than that, they've pretty much got everything covered.
 
2013-05-14 12:09:08 PM

msP: /obviously the best solution is use roundabouts wherever possibleTHIS! I say this all the time. In my completely unscientific opinion, I guesstimate that at least 90% of traffic lights could be replaced by roundabouts.


Thanks, but no thanks.  They replaced two intersections around here with those crappy things, and low and behold, traffic got worse in the area instead of better, and the number of accidents went UP.

The biggest problem is that traffic on the road coming off the highway is just about constant, and as that traffic is going through with 'the right of way' as cars are going through the intersection constantly with no breaks in the traffic, the cars on the cross streets are stuck waiting for access to the road.

If roundabouts were the only intersection option back from when we started getting motorized vehicles, then yes, it would be better.  Since we did not, you have to retrain EVERYONE on how to drive through those crappy things.  I have watched people turn left on a roundabout, because they don't want to go right, they need to go on the road to the left, which is a shorter distance to go anyway.  Why go all the way around and waste that much more gas?

Stop lights, or even stop signs at a 4 way intersection.  That's the way to go.
 
2013-05-14 12:09:26 PM
"...every electronically generated violation is reviewed by a local police officer or sheriff's deputy before a citation is validated and sent to a driver. "

Tough day scrolling through all those crappy photos I bet.
...you just know it's gonna be the fattest cop on the force.
 
2013-05-14 12:10:32 PM

jrat454: legion_of_doo: jrat454: What does the yellow light mean?

*quietly*
slow down.

W h a t  d o e s  t h e  y e l l l l o w  l i g h t  m e a n ???


Slow.

Down.
 
2013-05-14 12:12:37 PM
The whole concept of red light cameras is BS.

If a cop didn't see it, it didn't happen.

I would refuse to pay such a ticket (and I'm sure it would all work out great for me).
 
2013-05-14 12:12:57 PM

Treygreen13: msP: /obviously the best solution is use roundabouts wherever possibleTHIS! I say this all the time. In my completely unscientific opinion, I guesstimate that at least 90% of traffic lights could be replaced by roundabouts.

When that happens, let me know so I can move out of the country for a decade and then come back when America has figured them out.

They installed one near me on a tiny little street in the middle of nowhere. I drive through it every day. The stuff I've seen the elderly and timid do in that roundabout boggles the mind.


We have one in Houston. I had to teach my wife to drive at the age of 30 (don't ask, she just never learned apparently).

A short while into training, she became a bit cocky and thought she was ready for her driver's test (she wasn't), so I took her to the roundabout. I actually felt bad about it afterwards, she was so frazzled.

But I guess I did a good job, because she thanked me the other day out of the blue for teaching her to drive. She said the stuff I had her do has helped her avoid about three accidents now from other idiot motorists.

Sometimes I had her driving in a secluded spot and then I'd randomly yell out "child", "squirrel", "stop", "go", "do you want a fish sandwich?" or whatever else randomly came to mind -Now the new baby screaming or the dog suddenly yelping while she's driving has little effect on her.
 
2013-05-14 12:13:06 PM
Got my pocket picked by a RLC in Tallahassee. Scum!
 
2013-05-14 12:13:38 PM
Memphis could singlehandedly solve all budget problems for the state of Tennessee by putting up some red light cameras on union and poplar avenues. Well, if they could solve the problem of 50% of the cars having a cardboard "tag applied for" sign in the rear window.
 
2013-05-14 12:14:06 PM

jrat454: What does the yellow light mean?


"Slow Down"

"Whaaat Doooes thhhhe yellllow liiiight meeean?"

/used to love Taxi
 
2013-05-14 12:15:51 PM
When they put those red light cameras up, I choose to simply avoid those intersections if at all possible. Even if it means going a little out of my way.


dogboy360: Why bother with the yellow light at all?
Just set up a toll at all busy intersections.

/snark off



Toll at busy intersections? I got dinged for a non-payment of a toll on a road that to my knowledge has NO tolls on it. I paid it because I'd rather not fight over $3.50 - but don't be confused, they are doing it.
 
2013-05-14 12:18:23 PM
I'm shocked, shocked!
 
2013-05-14 12:18:47 PM

freeforever: Speaking of yellow, these things are turning up everywhere in Florida now, and it's only a matter of time before someone is killed when a driver doesn't realize you may have to stop at a yellow light.


Um...hasn't that always been the rule? If this is news to you then please stop driving.
 
2013-05-14 12:19:00 PM

tuna fingers: sandi_fish: A (first time) red light ticket here in Ventura, CA is $480.00.  What utter crap.

Really?

No way.


Way. I fought it, and it was reduced to $240.00 but still found guilty.  I don't know why they reduced the fine, but they did.
 
2013-05-14 12:19:44 PM
Citizens are fighting back:

link

Double tap one today!
 
2013-05-14 12:20:49 PM
As a civil engineer I find this very wrong.  The job of an engineer is to increase public safety.

If increasing the length of yellow lights caused fewer ran red lights then that is what needs to be done.  The state should get no kick back for cameras either.
 
2013-05-14 12:20:53 PM

msP: /obviously the best solution is use roundabouts wherever possibleTHIS! I say this all the time. In my completely unscientific opinion, I guesstimate that at least 90% of traffic lights could be replaced by roundabouts.


Roundabouts were designed for horse and buggies, to allow them to not lose momentum while going through an intersection. They work great, until you get into high traffic levels (like we have today), then they just clog and become horribly dangerous.

Modern cars are perfectly fine with starting from a dead stop, and we have so much more traffic now, roundabouts probably wouldn't work.
 
2013-05-14 12:21:00 PM
They have yet to put these things in where I live (Bay County, Florida), but I imagine they will get around to it eventually. Since our local politicians are predictable, we figure that when they put them in they won't put them anywhere near the gated communities but every main feeder road from the rural areas to town will have one.

I know about five people who swear that if they ever put them in that they will be hunting speed cameras in the wee hours of the morning---and knowing the folks down here I'm sure that there are more where they came from. It will be interesting to see if it actually happens or if all that big talk is just hot air.
 
2013-05-14 12:22:12 PM

Deathfrogg: calling them a waste of valuable taxpayer money and a horrible manipulation of people's freedumbs and liberties to drive as they please.


That's funny, a roundabout removes a government sign forcing you to stop and instead allows you to participate in the free market of traffic flow with your fellow citizens. You'd think they'd be all over that like white on rice.
 
2013-05-14 12:22:20 PM

sandi_fish: A (first time) red light ticket here in Ventura, CA is $480.00.  What utter crap.


My brother just got one there. Anybody fighting and winning?
 
2013-05-14 12:24:13 PM

fluffy2097: Roundabouts were designed for horse and buggies, to allow them to not lose momentum while going through an intersection. They work great, until you get into high traffic levels (like we have today), then they just clog and become horribly dangerous.


They're not removing all controlled intersections.
 
2013-05-14 12:24:15 PM

Tom_Slick: Sczi: This crap's getting real tiresome. I wonder if anybody in authority is getting actual payola style kickbacks for allowing these things to go in? I'd just about bet money on it. Personally, I'd like a thorough investigation. Some DOT guy physically typed those new numbers into the computer or turned the dial or however it works to shorten those lights. Who told them to do that, and why?

The payola goes directly to the town/city/county where these things are installed.  The companies that manage these things guarantee revenue from them, plus the local government doesn't pay for them.


Yeah but the govt splits the proceeds with the private company. While elected officials would probably like better budgets, they'll still have a job without it. What they really want is more pocket money, so I'm wondering if these private companies aren't literally bribing elected officials. If some mayor or whatever spent late nights with the bean counters and tried everything to balance the budget and hesitantly allowed this, then that sucks, but at least they're not evil. If some mf'er is getting a cash kickback, I'd like to personally slit his/her belly open and poop in the wound.
 
2013-05-14 12:25:17 PM

studs up: sandi_fish: A (first time) red light ticket here in Ventura, CA is $480.00.  What utter crap.

My brother just got one there. Anybody fighting and winning?


Nope. The yellow lights in California are set correctly.

/Your "brother" just sailed right through that red light.
//Or he's one of those "I can take a right on red without stopping" retards.
///Driven from Mendicino to LA, and everywhere all over the bay. Never seen someone get flashed by a red light cam that didn't completely and utterly deserve it in CA.
 
2013-05-14 12:26:44 PM

theorellior: ThatBillmanGuy: I wonder how soon til someone just decides to start charging a fee to go through a light. Double if you want to make a left.

Triple if you want to make that left immediately.


Ooooh, sell a sunpass to rich people with a button that turns lights green at 100$ a pop. Buffy dear, let's go take a 10k$ ride through town and piss off the poors!
 
2013-05-14 12:27:10 PM

freeforever: Speaking of yellow, these things are turning up everywhere in Florida now, and it's only a matter of time before someone is killed when a driver doesn't realize you may have to stop at a yellow light.


[stmedia.startribune.com image 630x324]


Ugh those are turning up everywhere here too and my first reaction encountering one was WTF? Is it about to go red? I don't know what was wrong with the damn yield on green circle
 
2013-05-14 12:27:28 PM
This story is an obvious lie.    State Governments, in general,  would never ever do something like this.


What kind of farcical stories will the Mass Media come up with?
The IRS is targeting specific groups.... pfft.    Nonsense.
 
2013-05-14 12:28:04 PM

freeforever: Speaking of yellow, these things are turning up everywhere in Florida now, and it's only a matter of time before someone is killed when a driver doesn't realize you may have to stop at a yellow light.


[stmedia.startribune.com image 630x324]



You'd rather have to sit for a full cycle to make a left? Not to mention the fact that multi-phase lights destroy the throughput of the intersection. Here in WA we are finally started to get some of those and I am so very, very happy about it.
 
2013-05-14 12:28:36 PM

Warmachine999: msP: /obviously the best solution is use roundabouts wherever possibleTHIS! I say this all the time. In my completely unscientific opinion, I guesstimate that at least 90% of traffic lights could be replaced by roundabouts.

Thanks, but no thanks.  They replaced two intersections around here with those crappy things, and low and behold, traffic got worse in the area instead of better, and the number of accidents went UP.


Maybe the minimum intelligence requirement for getting a driver's license is too low in your State.

The biggest problem is that traffic on the road coming off the highway is just about constant, and as that traffic is going through with 'the right of way' as cars are going through the intersection constantly with no breaks in the traffic, the cars on the cross streets are stuck waiting for access to the road.

If roundabouts were the only intersection option back from when we started getting motorized vehicles, then yes, it would be better.  Since we did not, you have to retrain EVERYONE on how to drive through those crappy things.  I have watched people turn left on a roundabout, because they don't want to go right, they need to go on the road to the left, which is a shorter distance to go anyway.  Why go all the way around and waste that much more gas?

Stop lights, or even stop signs at a 4 way intersection.  That's the way to go.


Why "retrain" people? Roundabouts ain't rocket surgery. Slow down the approaches, make sure they're clearly marked and brightly lit, and post a traffic cop for a few weeks at the spot to pull over and ticket the imbeciles who cannot fathom the idea of "Yield to traffic in circle" until people learn to navigate them without their heads in their asses.

Here, they put in a huge mega-mall in an old cow pasture right next to the freeway, the company that built it fought tooth and nail against having to pay for improvements to the freeway exits and widening the cross-highway to accommodate the traffic, so what you see now is no fewer than three stoplights in a half block, in all four directions. Starting at about 2 in the afternoon, it is total gridlock. Traffic circles have been suggested, and someone has already pointed out that putting three of those things in a row, two of which would be covering freeway off-ramps and on-ramps next to the Mall would be insanity. So the stoplights remain. Meanwhile, anyone who actually lives in the area has discovered that it is easier and faster to drive 30 blocks out of the way to get from point A to point B instead of trying to navigate through that flustercluck.
 
2013-05-14 12:29:45 PM

studs up: sandi_fish: A (first time) red light ticket here in Ventura, CA is $480.00.  What utter crap.

My brother just got one there. Anybody fighting and winning?


Not that I know of, but he should try to fight it, they should reduce the fine.
 
2013-05-14 12:30:46 PM
Everybody has their own opinion about the Black Plague.
We can all make up our own minds about the desirability of supermassive volcanoes.
Some people like serial murderers, some don't.
The populace is split right down the middle when it comes to nuking their own cities for no apparent reason.
Should we unleash the Kraken and bring down a thousand years of darkness?  You decide!

But if there is one thing, one issue, one inherent evil, one dark, horrible nightmare against which we all fervently align ourselves as patriotic freedom-loving Americans, it is the unutterable horror of the scourge of redlight cameras.  Any change of any kind is obviously automatic proof that they're just trying to make more money.
 
2013-05-14 12:32:06 PM

theorellior: Deathfrogg: calling them a waste of valuable taxpayer money and a horrible manipulation of people's freedumbs and liberties to drive as they please.

That's funny, a roundabout removes a government sign forcing you to stop and instead allows you to participate in the free market of traffic flow with your fellow citizens. You'd think they'd be all over that like white on rice.


One can never misunderestimate the intelligence of the folks who actively consider everything the Government does (except dropping high explosives on brown people) to be socialism. This was a Sundown town well into the middle 1960s.
 
2013-05-14 12:34:18 PM

Deathfrogg: Why "retrain" people? Roundabouts ain't rocket surgery. Slow down the approaches, make sure they're clearly marked and brightly lit, and post a traffic cop for a few weeks at the spot to pull over and ticket the imbeciles who cannot fathom the idea of "Yield to traffic in circle" until people learn to navigate them without their heads in their asses.

Here, they put in a huge mega-mall in an old cow pasture right next to the freeway, the company that built it fought tooth and nail against having to pay for improvements to the freeway exits and widening the cross-highway to accommodate the traffic, so what you see now is no fewer than three stoplights in a half block, in all four directions. Starting at about 2 in the afternoon, it is total gridlock. Traffic circles have been suggested, and someone has already pointed out that putting three of those things in a row, two of which would be covering freeway off-ramps and on-ramps next to the Mall would be insanity. So the stoplights remain. Meanwhile, anyone who actually lives in the area has discovered that it is easier and faster to drive 30 blocks out of the way to get from point A to point B instead of trying to navigate through that flustercluck.


Actually, in Ann Arbor, they had the same situation which was resolved with traffic circles:  US-23 and Geddes Road (which is near two colleges).  While it still is busy, it's nowhere near the madness as stoplights were.  While the traffic circles do slow traffic, they still allow movement and work much better.

The only reason people don't like them is because it's something new and goes against the 'hit the accelerator and slam the brakes' mentality of driving.
 
2013-05-14 12:35:26 PM
theorellior:

That's funny, a roundabout removes a government sign forcing you to stop and instead allows you to participate in the free market of traffic flow with your fellow citizens. You'd think they'd be all over that like white on rice.

They keep the YIELD sign.

And what does yield mean?

Definition:  give in, surrender

Synonyms:  abandon, abdicate, admit defeat, back down, bend, bow, break, buy, call it quits, capitulate, cave in, cede, collapse, come to terms, crumple, defer, fold, fold up, give oneself over, give up, give way, go, hand over, knuckle, knuckle under, lay down arms, leave, let go, part with, relax, relent, relinquish, resign, sag, submit, succumb, suffer defeat, throw in the towel


While stop is just a request for a moment.. YIELD is far more.. sinister.
 
2013-05-14 12:35:28 PM
I read that as:

DOJ changed traffic signal timing rules to increase red light camera revenue

This scandalgate will get out of control.

encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com
 
2013-05-14 12:36:12 PM

freeforever: Speaking of yellow, these things are turning up everywhere in Florida now, and it's only a matter of time before someone is killed when a driver doesn't realize you may have to stop at a yellow light.


[stmedia.startribune.com image 630x324]


In my experience, these are used on left turn lanes with a dedicated signal, which means no green circle. Traditionally, after the arrow turned red and the opposing traffic was given a green, those in the left turn lane were stuck waiting for the rest of the cycle, even if there was no oncoming traffic. This solves that problem.

As for accidents, it's common for lights to flash yellow on the main streets and red on the cross streets at night. Flashing red is equivalent to a stop sign, flashing yellow is equivalent to a yield sign.
 
2013-05-14 12:40:08 PM
They can't raise sales tax or property tax because they will never get re-elected but they can "punish the bad people" by screwing with the lights and no one will say anything. they actually had to change the constitution here in Miami so they could do this legally BTW. Not that they hadn't already done it regardless of the constitution.
 
2013-05-14 12:40:27 PM

Deathfrogg: This was a Sundown town well into the middle 1960s.


Urf. That's crazy.

Kristoph57: While stop is just a request for a moment.. YIELD is far more.. sinister.


Somebody better get Glenn Beck on it stat!
 
2013-05-14 12:41:24 PM
Anyone remotely surprised by this is as naive as a child. Cops and robbers have been the same thing since the invention of the automobile, and now live cops have been replaced by cameras.
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-05-14 12:41:47 PM
pet peave time.. and tangentially relevant:

People... if you learn anything from Fark in your lifetime, please learn this:

Basic traffic law says that when a stoplight has lost power then the intersection turns into a four way stop.

It is *not* "biggest road gets the right of way."

It's amazing the number of middle fingers and horns I've gotten just trying to follow this most basic of laws while living in Indiana.
 
2013-05-14 12:44:23 PM
The best part about a red light camera is, if it sees you running an intersection that's full of traffic, it deploys a force bubble which slows your car and prevents you from hitting that traffic.
 
2013-05-14 12:44:30 PM

freeforever: Speaking of yellow, these things are turning up everywhere in Florida now, and it's only a matter of time before someone is killed when a driver doesn't realize you may have to stop at a yellow light.



They started installing those a year or so ago here. They cause much confusion. I do not like them.
 
2013-05-14 12:47:02 PM

Detinwolf: The best part about a red light camera is, if it sees you running an intersection that's full of traffic, it deploys a force bubble which slows your car and prevents you from hitting that traffic.


If you make the yellow light the proper length, traffic cameras demonstrably decrease the number of serious accidents (t-bones) from people running red lights, with something like a 3% increase in minor rear end collisions when some dipshiat on his cell phone wasn't paying attention to the road and was tailgating at the same time.

/It's called a "you won't get away with running this red light" field.
//It becomes useless when you shorten the yellow lights.
 
2013-05-14 12:47:07 PM

d23: Basic traffic law says that when a stoplight has lost power then the intersection turns into a four way stop.

It is *not* "biggest road gets the right of way."


Try that on US19 in Pinellas county when the lights go out.  You'll get rear-ended at 65 mph.
 
2013-05-14 12:47:48 PM

Whistling Kitty Chaser: In my experience, these are used on left turn lanes with a dedicated signal, which means no green circle. Traditionally, after the arrow turned red and the opposing traffic was given a green, those in the left turn lane were stuck waiting for the rest of the cycle, even if there was no oncoming traffic. This solves that problem.


Thanks, now I understand what's happening here. I was having trouble just reading that sign (don't think I've seen one of these before) and if I had to learn in the middle of an intersection I would've been street paste.
 
2013-05-14 12:48:30 PM
Red light cameras . . . heh.

lib.store.yahoo.net
 
2013-05-14 12:50:15 PM
The bottom line is: If it was about safety, the yellows would last longer than 2.5 seconds "just because it's about safety", and also increase the time between the red and green change "because it's about safety". Anything after that and there is no question when you ran a red light.

And that means you're all thieves. (You know who you are.)
 
2013-05-14 12:52:42 PM

chewielouie: Red light cameras . . . heh.

[lib.store.yahoo.net image 550x550]


Good luck, (here anyway), they take a pic of the front (with driver), back and even video if you are going too fast to stop for the red.
 
2013-05-14 12:53:04 PM

Mugato: IdBeCrazyIf: Mugato: Yellow light times are calculated by a complex formula

I kind of doubt that.

You doubt the complexity in the mathematical operations of physics that determine where a dart lands on a board?

Well obviously smaller side roads have longer red lights if they are opposite highways but I just can't see that much thought going into it, especially if they're farking with the timing to create a 21st century version of the speed trap.

Weren't these farking things banned in some states?


In NJ, its really simple:  3 seconds of yellow for 25mph speed limit, plus .5 secs for each 5mph above that.  Passed by the state legislature in 2008.  Seems reasonable.  Of course, the red light camera companies seem to have trouble with it.
 
2013-05-14 12:53:19 PM
Can't decide between Obvious tag, and reapeat of every other place where ticket revenue was placed on a higher priority than human lives.
 
m00
2013-05-14 12:53:39 PM

Twigz221: This is what happens when you keep cutting taxes and governments have to get creative to get revenue.


Taxes could be 80% and government would still claim its strapped for cash and needs to use ticketing to generate more revenue.

Taxes don't go to helping you and me. They go to lining pockets of politicians, lobbyists, and campaign contributors.
 
2013-05-14 12:55:29 PM

chewielouie: Red light cameras . . . heh.

[lib.store.yahoo.net image 550x550]


The fine for obscuring a license plate is worse then running a red light.

/you have not thought your smug all the way through.
//You have a bike. Ride it everywhere. Bikes are unregistered. You can run red lights all day on a bicycle and never get a red light camera ticket.
 
2013-05-14 12:56:29 PM

Solty Dog: If this is all about safety, which I'm sure it is, they should put another yellow in the middle there. That way drivers will have twice as long to contemplate the eternal question. Mash the gas or slam on the brakes.


much simpler solution, have a timer countdown how long the light will remain green.  There are some new pedestrian signs that do this for pedestrians walking parallel to the road which allows drivers to see the countdown as well.  I find this information very helpful in deciding if I will have enough time to make the "stale green light" or if I should start preparing to stop.

If I am 1/4 mile from the light and I see it has 20 secs left of green left, I can just plan on making it.  If it has 5 seconds left I will start to make decisions on if I can make the light or not and prepare to slow down or stop.  The more information drivers have, the better decisions they can make.
 
2013-05-14 12:56:42 PM

freeforever: Speaking of yellow, these things are turning up everywhere in Florida now, and it's only a matter of time before someone is killed when a driver doesn't realize you may have to stop at a yellow light.


[stmedia.startribune.com image 630x324]


What the hell is the point of the yellow arrow, when a green light on the straight lane means the exact same thing, except to confuse people?
 
2013-05-14 01:00:12 PM

fluffy2097: Modern cars are perfectly fine with starting from a dead stop, and we have so much more traffic now, roundabouts probably wouldn't work.


I can state from personal experience (driving in Europe) that roundabouts work very well, even for high-speed traffic when they're properly designed.  Specifically, they need to be BIG.  I've never seen a well-designed roundabout in the US.  Not one.
 
2013-05-14 01:01:07 PM
We need dynamic stop light systems.  Ones that analyze the traffic and adjust in real time, this would solve a lot of traffic issues.  This however costs money of course.  And would drastically reduce the income generated by red light cameras if there are fewer red lights.  So it will never happen.
 
2013-05-14 01:02:32 PM

Z-clipped: I can state from personal experience (driving in Europe) that roundabouts work very well, even for high-speed traffic when they're properly designed.  Specifically, they need to be BIG.  I've never seen a well-designed roundabout in the US.  Not one.


+1 for roundabouts!  I think the problem is, in America at least, nobody knows how they work.
 
2013-05-14 01:05:13 PM
They did this at the light at the corner of Grady Way and HWY 168 in Renton Washington. The city of Renton is run by scum.

If they aren't making money on red light cameras it's Jay Walking tickets at the transit center because people are trying to catch their bus. Jay Walking tickets for non-whites that is.


/White but still know it's wrong
 
2013-05-14 01:06:05 PM

ReverendJynxed: They did this at the light at the corner of Grady Way and HWY 168 167 in Renton Washington. The city of Renton is run by scum.

If they aren't making money on red light cameras it's Jay Walking tickets at the transit center because people are trying to catch their bus. Jay Walking tickets for non-whites that is.


/White but still know it's wrong


God damned typos.
 
2013-05-14 01:06:28 PM
There are a lot of bad things you can say about the Philippines but one thing they do right are the traffic signals.  They use a timer instead of circles so you know exactly when that light is going to turn red.
 
2013-05-14 01:08:19 PM

Mugato: IdBeCrazyIf: Mugato: Yellow light times are calculated by a complex formula

I kind of doubt that.

You doubt the complexity in the mathematical operations of physics that determine where a dart lands on a board?

Well obviously smaller side roads have longer red lights if they are opposite highways but I just can't see that much thought going into it, especially if they're farking with the timing to create a 21st century version of the speed trap.

Weren't these farking things banned in some states?


Here they aren't allowed to violate the privacy of folks so they give the car a parking ticket. Seriously, it is a non-moving violation (even though your car has to move to go through a red light) just so they can legally fine you.
 
2013-05-14 01:10:29 PM

Z-clipped: fluffy2097: Modern cars are perfectly fine with starting from a dead stop, and we have so much more traffic now, roundabouts probably wouldn't work.

I can state from personal experience (driving in Europe) that roundabouts work very well, even for high-speed traffic when they're properly designed.  Specifically, they need to be BIG.  I've never seen a well-designed roundabout in the US.  Not one.


The ones on Cape Cod aren't bad but Ive seen some horrific ones in NY and FL. The Cape Cod ones are pretty big and give ample room for people to maneuver. Its when the smaller ones have dedicated lanes that really screw things up.

I thought the light timing had changed here in FL but couldnt put my finger on what. Now I piss people off and stop at the yellow.

Jaywalking is a HUGE issue in FL and I cant fathom why. I have lived in 7 different states and never encountered the sheer number of people who waltz casually across a 5 lane road with a posted speed limit of 45 MPH.
 
2013-05-14 01:12:29 PM

Kimpak: We need dynamic stop light systems.


Many cities already have them.  That's what these are:

blog.trapster.com

Problem is, the act of getting into a car still turns most people into flaming self-centered assholes who blow red lights, block intersections, jump the green to turn left, text while driving, and fail to use their turn signals.
 
2013-05-14 01:18:50 PM
YOU CAN'T CUT BACK ON FUNDING! YOU WILL REGRET THIS!
 
2013-05-14 01:19:08 PM

sandi_fish: Good luck, (here anyway), they take a pic of the front (with driver), back and even video if you are going too fast to stop for the red.


20 states don't require a front plate.
 
2013-05-14 01:20:41 PM

knightmike: There are a lot of bad things you can say about the Philippines but one thing they do right are the traffic signals.  They use a timer instead of circles so you know exactly when that light is going to turn red.


This is hilarious to me, because I just lived in Visayas for a year, and never saw a single traffic light.  There was only ONE stop sign in the entire city where I lived, and no one paid it any attention.  It was all free-for-all 4-way intersections with basically no rules whatsoever.  The best part?... they totally made it work.  There was only one accident during the whole year I was there, and nobody got hurt. I know this because it made the local paper.

It really put into perspective for me the difference between a society of people that are willing to cooperate with each other, and say, the US, where no one is.
 
2013-05-14 01:24:12 PM
FLORIDA is behind!!!   Alabama's been doing that for years.  quite productively i might add.  sure beats having to tax the rich.  those folks just never get a break.

(course, it creates more crashes, but nothing is perfect, yer' know)


Freedom!!
 
2013-05-14 01:25:16 PM

labman: I've never heard of such a thing happening.  To think people would be motivated to screw others out of their money.

/sarcasm



in the Greatest Country on Earth of all places!!
 
2013-05-14 01:26:12 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: labman: I've never heard of such a thing happening. To think people would be motivated to screw others out of their money.

/sarcasm


But this is the government. They arn't motivated by petty things like profit.


the Government is an amature at stealing compared to Big Business, Banks, etc.
 
2013-05-14 01:27:13 PM

Twigz221: This is what happens when you keep cutting taxes and governments have to get creative to get revenue.



but our poor rich folks have to pay all the taxes!   (whimper whimper)
 
2013-05-14 01:28:21 PM

Tom_Slick: Same thing happened in Georgia, the city responsible had to refund thousands of tickets.



there is no bigger asshole than the American South.  they'll steal from you and give you a warm smile southern hospitality.
 
2013-05-14 01:29:22 PM

TanSau: we need a yellow light count down.

That is all.


We have that in Vancouver, B.C. and it's extremely useful. Almost all major intersections have them.

The "Prepare to Stop" lights will start to flash while the intersection is still Green. After maybe 5 or 10 seconds the Green will go to Yellow then Red. The flashers will keep flashing until the intersection is Green again.

The neat thing is that the Prepare to Stop sign is usually a fair distance away from the intersection or around a corner, so you have plenty of information heading into the intersection. You'll now know weather you should speed up for the green or begin to slow down.
 
2013-05-14 01:30:04 PM
 
2013-05-14 01:32:30 PM

Coastalgrl: Jaywalking is a HUGE issue in FL and I cant fathom why. I have lived in 7 different states and never encountered the sheer number of people who waltz casually across a 5 lane road with a posted speed limit of 45 MPH.


The easy explanation?
Law enforcement doesn't want to risk their lives busting people for doing this on those roads and there's no revenue from it. Jaywalking tickets don't even cover the cost of fielding an officer to write them. They're going after the speeders for their (non-existent wink wink nudge nudge) quotas for the month. If they are caught and stopped, its such a minor fine all it teaches people is not to get caught. They'll still cross without a cross-walk, they'll still go halfway across an intersection without a light, and they'll still cause traffic congestion.
 
2013-05-14 01:41:31 PM

legion_of_doo: jrat454: What does the yellow light mean?

*quietly*
slow down.


OK, I'm whispering this. What     does    a    yellow   light    mean.
 
2013-05-14 01:42:40 PM
Speaking of crosswalks a lot of lights around Princeton NJ have automated crosswalk signals with countdowns on them.  The countdown will prevent any and all attempts to gouge from yellow lights to me since they tell you exactly how long until the light changes.  These countdowns should be posted over the intersections with the normal lights.  IMO that would make things much safer than the current yellow light system.

Although.. if they did that they would lose all the revenue from the cameras.
 
2013-05-14 01:43:47 PM
Are you trying to imply that or beneficent leaders would use all of the transportation, safety and public use infrastructure that we payed for and crafted to serve us, the body politic, into K-Mart crow bars to use to leverage our capital into their coffers?  Oh, treason and piffle.
 
2013-05-14 01:45:12 PM

Kimpak: We need dynamic stop light systems.  Ones that analyze the traffic and adjust in real time, this would solve a lot of traffic issues.  This however costs money of course.  And would drastically reduce the income generated by red light cameras if there are fewer red lights.  So it will never happen.


They use camera controlled intersections where I live now (pretty rural area). They don't need to rip up pavement to install and they do a great job managing intersections here. Also saw a portable roadside setup managing a one-lane construction setup (instead of flaggers) being used last week in PA. Seemed to work perfectly. The induction loop and timed intersections need to go. They're an anachronism.
 
2013-05-14 01:46:29 PM

amquelbettamin: Citizens are fighting back:
link
Double tap one today!


From that article: "Mayors and some police officers tout them as devices that reduce accidents while bringing much needed revenue to towns." It's not "bringing" money to town you idiot! It's squeezing money out of the town, basically redirecting it away from the private businesses that SHOULD have received that money. Why do red light cameras hate capitalism?
 
2013-05-14 01:48:04 PM

Sczi: This crap's getting real tiresome. I wonder if anybody in authority is getting actual payola style kickbacks for allowing these things to go in? I'd just about bet money on it. Personally, I'd like a thorough investigation. Some DOT guy physically typed those new numbers into the computer or turned the dial or however it works to shorten those lights. Who told them to do that, and why?


You'll never guess.
 
2013-05-14 01:56:29 PM

new_york_monty: They use camera controlled intersections where I live now (pretty rural area). They don't need to rip up pavement to install and they do a great job managing intersections here. Also saw a portable roadside setup managing a one-lane construction setup (instead of flaggers) being used last week in PA. Seemed to work perfectly. The induction loop and timed intersections need to go. They're an anachronism.


There's better systems than the ones noted above.  That communicate with other stoplights.  So if you get a large grouping of vehicles on a major road for instance, the light system will time that group to have all green lights.  The cross streets get greens between the gaps.  There was an article on fark about it once.
 
2013-05-14 02:18:33 PM
[Obvious] tag should win here.
 
2013-05-14 02:20:25 PM

varmitydog: They have yet to put these things in where I live (Bay County, Florida), but I imagine they will get around to it eventually. Since our local politicians are predictable, we figure that when they put them in they won't put them anywhere near the gated communities but every main feeder road from the rural areas to town will have one.

I know about five people who swear that if they ever put them in that they will be hunting speed cameras in the wee hours of the morning---and knowing the folks down here I'm sure that there are more where they came from. It will be interesting to see if it actually happens or if all that big talk is just hot air.


I should've known you lived in a gated community... I feel safe, so gun control.
 
2013-05-14 02:20:53 PM

Deep Contact: legion_of_doo: jrat454: What does the yellow light mean?

*quietly*
slow down.

OK, I'm whispering this. What     does    a    yellow   light    mean.


*quiet but forceful*
Slow down!
 
2013-05-14 02:21:11 PM
 
2013-05-14 02:25:06 PM

Edymnion: moothemagiccow: Mugato: Yellow light times are calculated by a complex formula

I kind of doubt that.

What are there, like, 4 or 5 variables? Width of intersection, number of lanes,  a journalist probably thinks that's complex.

http://www.copradar.com/redlight/rdrform/redtyfm.html


The easy method would be speed limit / 10 + 1 in seconds.
40 mph should give at least a 5 second yellow.

Add time for hills and road special circumstances.
 
2013-05-14 02:25:41 PM

moothemagiccow: Mugato: Yellow light times are calculated by a complex formula

I kind of doubt that.

What are there, like, 4 or 5 variables? Width of intersection, number of lanes,  a journalist probably thinks that's complex.


Some states will give you the formula used.
Y = t + V/(2a+2Ag)
Y= Yellow clearance interval in seconds
t= reaction time (use 1 second)
V= 85%percentile approach speed in ft/sec/sec [can use speed limit]
a= deceleration rate of a vehicle(use 10 ft/sec/sec)
A= Acceleration due to gravity (32.2 ft/sec/sec)
g= percent grade in decimal form(+for upgrade,- for downgrade) this is
unknown.
*Calculate the yellow clearance interval to the nearest 0.1 second

(stolen from yahoo answers)
 
2013-05-14 02:36:45 PM

theresnothinglft: Speaking of crosswalks a lot of lights around Princeton NJ have automated crosswalk signals with countdowns on them.  The countdown will prevent any and all attempts to gouge from yellow lights to me since they tell you exactly how long until the light changes.  These countdowns should be posted over the intersections with the normal lights.  IMO that would make things much safer than the current yellow light system.

Although.. if they did that they would lose all the revenue from the cameras.


I disagree with this.  It's an invitation to people to make up their own yellow lights.  The yellow light means, "Change to red is imminent.  Slow down now."  It doesn't mean, "Gauge for yourself whether you should accelerate to try to beat the red light."  You put a counter up there and drivers will say, "Hey that clock doesn't run right.  It said I had 8 seconds left, and that should have been plenty.  It's not my fault I t-boned somebody, it's the clock's."
 
2013-05-14 02:55:45 PM

Lucubrationist: I think the Obvious tag would have been more appropriate here. Unfortunately, this issue isn't restricted to a single state.


Yeah, to the point that this is old news in Arizona. I think they finally admitted it 6 or 7 years ago, about the time I moved out, and other states admitted this before that. Florida is playing catch-up here, and since it isn't unique to FL this time, I agree that the 'Florida' tag is misplaced.
 
2013-05-14 02:59:52 PM

theorellior: freeforever: Speaking of yellow, these things are turning up everywhere in Florida now, and it's only a matter of time before someone is killed when a driver doesn't realize you may have to stop at a yellow light.

That's ricockulous. What's wrong with a green circle after the green arrow goes out? That's been "left turn yield" in all the states I've driven in.

Someone's gonna take a flashing yellow as meaning "better get through the intersection before you lose your chance" rather than "stop and yield to oncoming traffic". Do counties make money off of traffic accidents?


Flashing yellows are nothing but confusing. They've started installing these in Utah over the last 3 years or so, where the intersections were already the exact same, Left Turn After Yield. Now you have people who haven't encountered these stoping longer, thinking that the light is about to change, screaming through the intersection because they think it's about to change, or just sitting there trying to figure out what the fark is going on, because there are no actual signs.

The flashing yellow does NOTHING for safety and adds NOTHING to the intersection, people who turn in front of oncoming traffic are still going to have bad judgement, regardless of the presence or absence of a blinking yellow arrow.
 
2013-05-14 03:11:55 PM

Kibbler: Everybody has their own opinion about the Black Plague.
We can all make up our own minds about the desirability of supermassive volcanoes.
Some people like serial murderers, some don't.
The populace is split right down the middle when it comes to nuking their own cities for no apparent reason.
Should we unleash the Kraken and bring down a thousand years of darkness?  You decide!

But if there is one thing, one issue, one inherent evil, one dark, horrible nightmare against which we all fervently align ourselves as patriotic freedom-loving Americans, it is the unutterable horror of the scourge of redlight cameras.  Any change of any kind is obviously automatic proof that they're just trying to make more money.


Well, we wouldn't think that if, for instance, we didn't have multiple articles showing that they place them not at the most dangerous intersections for red light running, but instead, the more trafficked ones. Or places that shut down their red light cameras when the number of red light citations went down. Or, as in this example, evidence that the yellow lights are calibrated in such a way as to insure more tickets.

Police officers, not cameras should be issuing citations. Common sense scenario that you see: a person pulls into an intersection with a green light. The person in front clears the intersection slowly, leaving the person behind to either stay in the middle of the intersection and block traffic, or trigger the camera.
 
2013-05-14 03:13:32 PM

jrat454: legion_of_doo: jrat454: What does the yellow light mean?

*quietly*
slow down.

W h a t  d o e s  t h e  y e l l l l o w  l i g h t  m e a n ???


Came here for this, staying to point out this CSB: The law in Florida that regulated the RLCs was named after a high school classmate of mine that died in 2003 when someone ran a red light in Bradenton, though this was well after we graduated.  I mean, we were dumb, but not that dumb.
 
2013-05-14 03:17:00 PM

Msol: TanSau: we need a yellow light count down.

That is all.

We have that in Vancouver, B.C. and it's extremely useful. Almost all major intersections have them.

The "Prepare to Stop" lights will start to flash while the intersection is still Green. After maybe 5 or 10 seconds the Green will go to Yellow then Red. The flashers will keep flashing until the intersection is Green again.

The neat thing is that the Prepare to Stop sign is usually a fair distance away from the intersection or around a corner, so you have plenty of information heading into the intersection. You'll now know weather you should speed up for the green or begin to slow down.


I appreciate those lights on route 29 in Virginia that flash yellow a distance from the intersection that the light will turn red if you are going proper speed as you reach the intersection, just as you described. It does remove the "i'm driving 55 miles an hour 10 yards short of the intersection, do I jam on the brakes or gun it. Is it a short yellow or long yellow. Do you feel lucky punk? Well do ya?
 
2013-05-14 03:19:20 PM

Z-clipped: fluffy2097: Modern cars are perfectly fine with starting from a dead stop, and we have so much more traffic now, roundabouts probably wouldn't work.

I can state from personal experience (driving in Europe) that roundabouts work very well, even for high-speed traffic when they're properly designed.  Specifically, they need to be BIG.  I've never seen a well-designed roundabout in the US.  Not one.


Every time I hear bragging about the superiority of roundabouts I think of Dupont Circle and various other crappy intersections in Washington, D.C.
 
2013-05-14 03:31:03 PM

Fano: Kibbler: Everybody has their own opinion about the Black Plague.
We can all make up our own minds about the desirability of supermassive volcanoes.
Some people like serial murderers, some don't.
The populace is split right down the middle when it comes to nuking their own cities for no apparent reason.
Should we unleash the Kraken and bring down a thousand years of darkness?  You decide!

But if there is one thing, one issue, one inherent evil, one dark, horrible nightmare against which we all fervently align ourselves as patriotic freedom-loving Americans, it is the unutterable horror of the scourge of redlight cameras.  Any change of any kind is obviously automatic proof that they're just trying to make more money.

Well, we wouldn't think that if, for instance, we didn't have multiple articles showing that they place them not at the most dangerous intersections for red light running, but instead, the more trafficked ones. Or places that shut down their red light cameras when the number of red light citations went down. Or, as in this example, evidence that the yellow lights are calibrated in such a way as to insure more tickets.

Police officers, not cameras should be issuing citations. Common sense scenario that you see: a person pulls into an intersection with a green light. The person in front clears the intersection slowly, leaving the person behind to either stay in the middle of the intersection and block traffic, or trigger the camera.


So there are corrupt police officers, right?  There are police officers who take bribes?  So we should get rid of them all, rather than fix the police force.

If (and the key word is if) red light cameras are abused, then the abuses should be corrected.  Concerned citizens should see to it.  But again, from what I hear, everyone is unanimously, unquestionably certain that red light cameras are just a huge scam to collect money, that's all, there is no public safety component whatsoever.  Just a money-making venture.

And when somebody does get a ticket for running a red light, all I've ever heard is, "I didn't run a red light, it was just a cop making his quota at the end of the month, it's all just a big money-making scam."

As someone who has, on more than one occasion, avoided almost certain death only by being very careful about entering intersections even when the light is green (which means that plenty of patriots behind me are blowing their horns), I prefer the money-making scam that teaches people, if you blow through this red light at 60 mph, it's going to cost you.
 
2013-05-14 03:37:46 PM

sandi_fish: A (first time) red light ticket here in Ventura, CA is $480.00.  What utter crap.


I got hit with a $520 red light ticket here in San Diego County -- first time, even. Not cool.
 
2013-05-14 03:40:52 PM

Kibbler: Fano: Kibbler: Everybody has their own opinion about the Black Plague.
We can all make up our own minds about the desirability of supermassive volcanoes.
Some people like serial murderers, some don't.
The populace is split right down the middle when it comes to nuking their own cities for no apparent reason.
Should we unleash the Kraken and bring down a thousand years of darkness?  You decide!

But if there is one thing, one issue, one inherent evil, one dark, horrible nightmare against which we all fervently align ourselves as patriotic freedom-loving Americans, it is the unutterable horror of the scourge of redlight cameras.  Any change of any kind is obviously automatic proof that they're just trying to make more money.

Well, we wouldn't think that if, for instance, we didn't have multiple articles showing that they place them not at the most dangerous intersections for red light running, but instead, the more trafficked ones. Or places that shut down their red light cameras when the number of red light citations went down. Or, as in this example, evidence that the yellow lights are calibrated in such a way as to insure more tickets.

Police officers, not cameras should be issuing citations. Common sense scenario that you see: a person pulls into an intersection with a green light. The person in front clears the intersection slowly, leaving the person behind to either stay in the middle of the intersection and block traffic, or trigger the camera.

So there are corrupt police officers, right?  There are police officers who take bribes?  So we should get rid of them all, rather than fix the police force.

If (and the key word is if) red light cameras are abused, then the abuses should be corrected.  Concerned citizens should see to it.  But again, from what I hear, everyone is unanimously, unquestionably certain that red light cameras are just a huge scam to collect money, that's all, there is no public safety component whatsoever.  Just a money-making venture.

...


That's fine, you install red light cameras for a living. Here is a useful collection of studies from the first page of google searches: http://www.motorists.org/red-light-cameras/studies

Apparently it's pretty unanimous.
 
2013-05-14 03:54:36 PM

Shrink: sandi_fish: A (first time) red light ticket here in Ventura, CA is $480.00.  What utter crap.

I got hit with a $520 red light ticket here in San Diego County -- first time, even. Not cool.


Hey, at least we get to live in beautiful beach towns, life isn't that bad.
 
2013-05-14 04:01:17 PM
This surprises....who?  Anyone?  Here in WI, the DOT is trying to get it's funding enshrined in the state constitution for fark's sake....
 
2013-05-14 04:10:55 PM

fluffy2097: msP: /obviously the best solution is use roundabouts wherever possibleTHIS! I say this all the time. In my completely unscientific opinion, I guesstimate that at least 90% of traffic lights could be replaced by roundabouts.

Roundabouts were designed for horse and buggies, to allow them to not lose momentum while going through an intersection. They work great, until you get into high traffic levels (like we have today), then they just clog and become horribly dangerous.

Modern cars are perfectly fine with starting from a dead stop, and we have so much more traffic now, roundabouts probably wouldn't work.


Personally:

They work great when you have Big road intersecting Little road (where Little is large enough to justify a stoplight) and you can count on the surrounding stoplights to create gaps for little road people. You end up with a de facto always-green for Big road, which is annoying for Little road, but usable.

They work even better (and way better than lights) at places where everyone is turning the same direction (See M-5 and Pontiac Trail).  Instead of letting everyone sit at the light waiting, they have everyone turning continuously all the time.  It's a de facto open green except for when there are (rare) people who want to go the other direction.  (Heck, if we could get one at the Rengstorff Road exit, we'd fix 101S through Silicon Valley in the evenings, because EVERYONE wants to turn left, and they can't so it backs up onto the freeway).
 
2013-05-14 04:11:20 PM

sandi_fish: I prefer the money-making scam that teaches people, if you blow through this red light at 60 mph, it's going to cost you.


...

Which one is that, because red light cameras don't work if you go blowing through the intersection.  Funny isn't it?
You are welcome to test this, but I have the technical data.  It's simple, the system is tuned to catch people "running yellows".  If the light is solid red and you blow through at the speed limit or higher, the camera will never even take your picture.

Enjoy that false sense of security.
 
2013-05-14 04:17:46 PM

sandi_fish: Good luck, (here anyway), they take a pic of the front (with driver), back and even video if you are going too fast to stop for the red.


I have a red light speeding ticket from maryland in my hand right now.  There are pictures of my licence and NO front view. The bike rack might not be a bad idea.
 
2013-05-14 04:48:45 PM
Why do dumbasses do this?

Simply increase the times on the other 95% of the lights.  That way, you can simply make the true statement that you have not lowered the interval on any lights in the district.
 
2013-05-14 04:53:05 PM

Warmachine999: Thanks, but no thanks. They replaced two intersections around here with those crappy things, and low and behold, traffic got worse in the area instead of better, and the number of accidents went UP.


Then they must be lousily engineered roundabouts.  They have a triple one in town, lowest accident area going, and the busiest.

sandi_fish: A (first time) red light ticket here in Ventura, CA is $480.00.  What utter crap.


Is it a red light ticket, as handed out by a police officer, or a 'red light citation', as handed out by automatic camera systems?  The latter is normally a lot cheaper.

fluffy2097: Roundabouts were designed for horse and buggies, to allow them to not lose momentum while going through an intersection. They work great, until you get into high traffic levels (like we have today), then they just clog and become horribly dangerous.


Depends on the traffic levels.  They have more capacity than a 4 way stop, but less than a red light system.  Starting from a dead stop costs gas mileage.

PhDemented: What the hell is the point of the yellow arrow, when a green light on the straight lane means the exact same thing, except to confuse people?


The argument is that green is MORE confusing, because people tend to think that it means a protected turn, IE  they have priority.  Not all roads today are set up where you can glance right at the straight-through next to you and tell whether or not the opposite side has a green light.

By making it yellow you make it obvious that 'turn only if a sufficient opening in traffic is present' is the rule in effect.  The old system was to have 5 lights - green arrow was protected turn, full circle was 'yield, but go if you have the opportunity'.

Fano: Every time I hear bragging about the superiority of roundabouts I think of Dupont Circle and various other crappy intersections in Washington, D.C.


Yeah, there's some crappy ones out there.  I think the problem is with cost-cutting and that US traffic engineers don't really know how to make a good one.  There are some where they actually got a European traffic engineer over here to help with the design, they aren't bad.
 
2013-05-14 04:56:39 PM

Fano: Memphis could singlehandedly solve all budget problems for the state of Tennessee by putting up some red light cameras


In many jurisdictions, less than 20% of citations are ever paid. These cameras aren't generating revenue, they're generating work for the courts. Whether or not the jurisdiction ever sees a cent depends on whether or not the jurisdiction is effective in collecting fines. In the worst cases, the additional workload is actually decreasing revenue. In one major city I'm aware of 600 million dollars in unpaid fines. The city is considering a huge amnesty program just to get their drivers back on the road legally.
 
2013-05-14 05:10:58 PM

Mugato: Well obviously smaller side roads have longer red lights if they are opposite highways




They should all be exactly the same, every where.
 
2013-05-14 05:20:30 PM

msP: /obviously the best solution is use roundabouts wherever possibleTHIS! I say this all the time. In my completely unscientific opinion, I guesstimate that at least 90% of traffic lights could be replaced by roundabouts.


But if you have roundabouts, what about the jobs of all those people that have to replace the light bulbs in the traffic signal?
 
2013-05-14 05:40:48 PM

freeforever: Speaking of yellow, these things are turning up everywhere in Florida now, and it's only a matter of time before someone is killed when a driver doesn't realize you may have to stop at a yellow light.


[stmedia.startribune.com image 630x324]


Wow, that seems dumb at first... but now that I think about it, the only alternative is to change the green arrow to a green globe, and extinguish the green arrow/yellow arrow.. I guess it might be a little awkward to have the flashing yellow arrow, but I guess it does make some sense. Heck, I can see that it makes more sense than just a green globe remaining.

I see that it's an optional change introduced in MUTCD 2009.
 
2013-05-14 05:47:12 PM

Mikey1969: Lucubrationist: I think the Obvious tag would have been more appropriate here. Unfortunately, this issue isn't restricted to a single state.

Yeah, to the point that this is old news in Arizona. I think they finally admitted it 6 or 7 years ago, about the time I moved out, and other states admitted this before that. Florida is playing catch-up here, and since it isn't unique to FL this time, I agree that the 'Florida' tag is misplaced.


I still think it's because of the facial recognition fiasco that happened down here, that caused the delay.
 
2013-05-14 06:15:43 PM

mod3072: It sounds to me like this should increase the safety of those intersections by at least a factor of 10. Maybe instead of whining about a few little traffic tickets, you should be thankful for FDOT's steadfast dedication to making your lives safer.


Are you a cop?
 
2013-05-14 06:44:08 PM
People really think that yellow arrows are complicated? I always knew I was surrounded by retards.
 
2013-05-14 06:49:41 PM
Obvious seems more appropriate than Florida on this one subbs
 
2013-05-14 07:00:03 PM

Twigz221: This is what happens when you keep cutting taxes and governments have to get creative to get revenue.


This is what happens when taxes are raised constantly...gotta pay off the new cronies and union bosses somehow.
 
2013-05-14 07:06:08 PM

Oldiron_79: Obvious seems more appropriate than Florida on this one subbs




Too many assholes down here talking about how cheap it is to live down here. fark you cocks!

Transplants can't farking stand the heat and always complain. Stop driving up the taxes you farks. I know you will be gone to South Carolina or someplace cooler after you have farked it up down here.

Now we have those unconstitutional farking redlight cameras. Haha, fark you, I drive the speed limit and stop at all stop signage. I've been practicing for years. Really pisses off self-important people behind me. fark'em.

/New Yorker
 
2013-05-14 07:37:19 PM

StoPPeRmobile: /New Yorker


I never would have guessed.
 
2013-05-14 08:07:28 PM
There's a red light camera in Tallahassee where the yellow light is 3 secs, and they have the balls to show it to you when you watch the video. Boss's daughter got one. I told them to fight it. 3 secs is way below the minimum.
 
2013-05-14 08:30:36 PM

karmaceutical: I was nearly rear ended at the main intersection on my way to the highway to work the other day.  I got a red light camera ticket there last year... so I stopped after the car before more drove through on yellow.  The guy behind me obviously had never gotten a ticket at that intersection.  He was road-raging me pretty good after that.


I actually DID get rear ended in that type of situation on a business trip a few years ago.  The guy behind me had enough money that I guess he didn't mind the thought of getting a ticket, whereas I didn't have that luxury at that time in my life and couldn't take chances on red light camera technology quirks.

The tow-truck company that the guy called to come out to get his car knew him by first name and seemed completely unsurprised (and seemed to find it humorous) that they were picking him up "again".  So, I dare the red light camera proponents of the world to tell me again how these things are supposedly retraining the red light runners and distracted drivers.  All they seem to do is give the fools a stationary target that's easier to hit.

Running a red light is not what I'm wanting to do... feeling safe (from glitchy technology and unskilled reviewers) to proceed under a yellow if needed is what I want to do.

I'm beginning to stop visiting cities with red light cameras.  Too bad everyone doesn't have the flexibility to simply speak with their money and stop visiting the camera cities.
 
2013-05-14 09:03:13 PM
boarch: I should've known you lived in a gated community... I feel safe, so gun control.

No, I don't live in a gated community. About 30 years ago I moved to the end of a dirt road out in the sticks and put up a fence to keep everyone away from me. My nearest neighbor is 3/4 of a mile away.

And living in the country, I have an assortment of weapons, which I need to kill snakes, squirrels (I cultivate nut trees), rabid critters and such. Plus it takes the nearest cops 15 minutes going 90 to reach where I live, so I need them--- just in case. I reckon if they pass gun laws I will just have to make hidey-holes for the guns----it would be a hardship to be without them where I live. Although some folks do.
 
2013-05-15 12:13:50 AM
Simply stand on the brakes and pull your emergency brake to stop in time to stay within the law. They change the stopping distance, you change your driving habits.
 
2013-05-15 01:44:13 AM

Fano: Z-clipped: fluffy2097: Modern cars are perfectly fine with starting from a dead stop, and we have so much more traffic now, roundabouts probably wouldn't work.

I can state from personal experience (driving in Europe) that roundabouts work very well, even for high-speed traffic when they're properly designed.  Specifically, they need to be BIG.  I've never seen a well-designed roundabout in the US.  Not one.

Every time I hear bragging about the superiority of roundabouts I think of Dupont Circle and various other crappy intersections in Washington, D.C.


Dupont Circle is NOT a roundabout. It's a paved circular infernal shiatshow with something like 17 traffic lights tossed in for extra pain and suffering.

I've lived in the DC area for just over a month now, and I'm convinced that Dupont was built as a trap to keep stupid tourists off of 20th Street.

/if it's got lights, it ain't no roundabout
 
2013-05-15 01:51:43 AM

Fano: Kibbler: Everybody has their own opinion about the Black Plague.
We can all make up our own minds about the desirability of supermassive volcanoes.
Some people like serial murderers, some don't.
The populace is split right down the middle when it comes to nuking their own cities for no apparent reason.
Should we unleash the Kraken and bring down a thousand years of darkness?  You decide!

But if there is one thing, one issue, one inherent evil, one dark, horrible nightmare against which we all fervently align ourselves as patriotic freedom-loving Americans, it is the unutterable horror of the scourge of redlight cameras.  Any change of any kind is obviously automatic proof that they're just trying to make more money.

Well, we wouldn't think that if, for instance, we didn't have multiple articles showing that they place them not at the most dangerous intersections for red light running, but instead, the more trafficked ones. Or places that shut down their red light cameras when the number of red light citations went down. Or, as in this example, evidence that the yellow lights are calibrated in such a way as to insure more tickets.

Police officers, not cameras should be issuing citations. Common sense scenario that you see: a person pulls into an intersection with a green light. The person in front clears the intersection slowly, leaving the person behind to either stay in the middle of the intersection and block traffic, or trigger the camera.


I'm pretty sure that red light cameras only pop you for ENTERING the intersection after the light turns red... not for BEING IN the intersection when the light turns red.

/just sayin', know your enemy
 
2013-05-15 02:20:05 AM

Z-clipped: I'm pretty sure that red light cameras only pop you for ENTERING the intersection after the light turns red... not for BEING IN the intersection when the light turns red.


Eh. I have a hard time mustering outrage for someone blocking the box getting a ticket.
 
2013-05-15 02:54:34 AM

fluffy2097: Z-clipped: I'm pretty sure that red light cameras only pop you for ENTERING the intersection after the light turns red... not for BEING IN the intersection when the light turns red.

Eh. I have a hard time mustering outrage for someone blocking the box getting a ticket.


Nor do I. I'm just saying, red light cameras do not work that way! Goodnight!
 
2013-05-15 09:50:34 AM

greatgodyoshi: There's a red light camera in Tallahassee where the yellow light is 3 secs, and they have the balls to show it to you when you watch the video. Boss's daughter got one. I told them to fight it. 3 secs is way below the minimum.


Isn't that every red light here?
 
2013-05-15 10:33:19 AM

Firethorn: Warmachine999: Thanks, but no thanks. They replaced two intersections around here with those crappy things, and low and behold, traffic got worse in the area instead of better, and the number of accidents went UP.

Then they must be lousily engineered roundabouts.  They have a triple one in town, lowest accident area going, and the busiest.

sandi_fish: A (first time) red light ticket here in Ventura, CA is $480.00.  What utter crap.

Is it a red light ticket, as handed out by a police officer, or a 'red light citation', as handed out by automatic camera systems?  The latter is normally a lot cheaper.

fluffy2097: Roundabouts were designed for horse and buggies, to allow them to not lose momentum while going through an intersection. They work great, until you get into high traffic levels (like we have today), then they just clog and become horribly dangerous.

Depends on the traffic levels.  They have more capacity than a 4 way stop, but less than a red light system.  Starting from a dead stop costs gas mileage.

PhDemented: What the hell is the point of the yellow arrow, when a green light on the straight lane means the exact same thing, except to confuse people?

The argument is that green is MORE confusing, because people tend to think that it means a protected turn, IE  they have priority.  Not all roads today are set up where you can glance right at the straight-through next to you and tell whether or not the opposite side has a green light.

By making it yellow you make it obvious that 'turn only if a sufficient opening in traffic is present' is the rule in effect.  The old system was to have 5 lights - green arrow was protected turn, full circle was 'yield, but go if you have the opportunity'.

Fano: Every time I hear bragging about the superiority of roundabouts I think of Dupont Circle and various other crappy intersections in Washington, D.C.

Yeah, there's some crappy ones out there.  I think the problem is with cost-cutting and that US traffic engineers ...


It was a red light ticket by a machine, not a cop.
 
2013-05-15 07:51:21 PM
greatgodyoshi: There's a red light camera in Tallahassee where the yellow light is 3 secs, and they have the balls to show it to you when you watch the video. Boss's daughter got one. I told them to fight it. 3 secs is way below the minimum.

Isn't that every red light here?


Well, yeah. But this is the only one I've seen definitive proof of. It was Apalachee and Magnolia, by the way. The left turn onto Magnolia as you're heading toward Cap Circle SE, specifically. For future reference.
 
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